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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Hi, everyone. I am so excited about today's episode because I hope it's a breath of fresh air and one that equips you to take appropriate next steps in your counseling journey no matter where you currently are. We get questions all the time via email and on our YouTube page, asking about how to find a good counselor, what to expect in your first appointment, and what do you do if you can't afford a counselor, and so many more questions.
So before we get into the content today, I want to let you know that our team has put together a helpful listener guide that you can download for free using the link in the show notes. Now, let's dive into some of those questions. All right. First of all, whoever wants to go first ... I'm assuming it might be you, Jim.
Jim Cress:
OK.
Lysa TerKeurst:
How do I find a counselor and what credentials should I be looking for?
Jim Cress:
OK, we said we're going to be brief on this. I'm surely going to try. [Number] one is: Simply just do your own due diligence around this. I find that is lacking often. Now, you may want to just find a friend or somebody tell me who to find, but if it's like we've recommended aacc.net — that I'm part of, that you're part of — the American Association of Christian Counselors, but who I want you to really use, if you can, the social media, the internet, and go.
Many therapists have their bios; they have some of their own on YouTube. They'll have some of their own videos. You can watch them in action. Read, find out what they do, and you just have to do your due diligence. We're in an age now where there's a lot of virtual counseling and laws changing that we can counsel across state lines that you might find someone who's not just in your area.
But really get after it, research, take the time to read. And also one of my themes I use a lot is I'm encouraging you to be willing to, if you're going to try to pay for counseling, to find someone, you narrow it down. I think this is a person I want to see. Then buy a session with them versus [asking] "Can I get 20 minutes of your time?”
Many good therapists — now that we're still in that global mental health pandemic — we're swamped. So to say, buy a session, go out, I've narrowed it down. I think you're the one. And see what you're willing to do with. Those are some things that’s due diligence: read, study, there's more recommendations out there on the internet, then you've got to go meet that person.
Lysa TerKeurst:
One thing that I've found is: Think of the topic that you want to address or you want to start with. And I really enjoy some Instagram accounts where therapists will go on and they're focusing on this one topic, and when they focus on the topic, I can quickly look at some videos, whether it's YouTube, Instagram, whatever, and I can kind of tell if I would gel with that person or I wouldn’t.
So the question that I have then is: I found someone, I really like their advice, what they're putting out on social media, but what credentials do I need to make sure they have? Is that important? Is it not important? What do I need to be looking for beyond just the helpful advice that I'm seeing online?
Jim Cress:
I think it's important. My experience is that there are a lot of people who can do a great job on the pastoral level. My wife is ... Jessica is a board-certified mental health coach, and I'd put her up against most therapists with her wisdom. She's done her own work. My point around that is: There are life coaches and people who can do a really good job. When you're thinking to go, knowing your own story a little bit down the road of a professional counselor, look for master's level; I would look for people who are licensed. They might have a master's, an M.A. or an M.S.
Joel Muddamalle:
What are the little symbols that you'll see or the letter, acronym?
Jim Cress:
Yes. An M.A. is a master of arts, so you'll see that and professional counseling. What that says is they've done a lot of their work. They've done the psychology work, hopefully it's Christian; if not, they supplement it otherwise. They know the clinical things to work for because you're fixing to open up your life.
LPC in some states, Licensed Professional Counselor — I'm that. I'm also a Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor because I’m licensed in more than one state. Ph.D. — If you're going to get some great psychological testing more than a simple Enneagram test, nothing against that, because that's where you can go in and take an MMPI, the Cadillac of all psychological tests — you'll look for a Ph.D.
An M.D. — all psychiatrists are M.D. who can prescribe —
Joel Muddamalle:
Medicine.
Jim Cress:
— medicine. OK? I don't send a lot of people to psychiatrists because they usually don't have the time and bandwidth. I don't send them to a psychiatrist for ongoing therapy. So M.A., Ph.D. and then M.D. and then also looking at: Does the person have some other credentials? Many of us have a lot of certificates and certifications and training, what we call a trauma-informed therapist, people who are trained in other modalities. You'll see that right on their website.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, it was very attractive to me, Jim, when I found out that one of your specialties is betrayal trauma, because I knew that was a specific thing that I wanted to address. Now obviously that was the door that opened up my desire, the urgent need for me to get into therapy, and we stayed focused on that for a little bit.
But then there were so many other things that opened up. It's like, "Oh, actually there's some things that I need to work on," and you were able to help me. But often what drives people to a counselor is the urgency of a pain point in their life. And so if you know you want that kind of specific help, then go after a counselor who's specifically trained in that.
And like you said, with things opening up so much online, this is a real possibility no matter where you live. There's sex-addiction therapists, there's betrayal-trauma therapists. Name some of the others that you think may be good categories for people.
Jim Cress:
Yeah, I love IFS. It's called Internal Family Systems. Obviously an LMFT is the licensed marriage and family therapists. They're really trained uniquely around marriage, around therapy. You have EFT, emotionally focused therapy with Sue Johnson, Dr. Gottman, who we've talked about. I'm a Gottman-trained therapist to use the part of the Gottman method.
I'm very eclectic. God's the God of all wisdom. So I'm going to have a cafeteria plan. I borrow from this, I get trained in this, [and] I get trained in that because I want to use as many tools in my toolkit as I go along. But EMDR and what we call “brainspotting” these days are powerful, almost miraculous breakthroughs of what it's doing to help heal trauma. Those are things, somatic experiences, just soma — the word for body — helping people be in touch with what's going on, which is almost the last frontier.
People are like, I'm doing all this psychoeducation scripture things, therapy, but are you aware of your body? So what's going on there? But those are a few. And again, a simple Google search of ... don't get overwhelmed because you can [by] different psychotherapies, different approaches and counseling — things that are out there. Take what you can use and leave the rest of them.
Joel Muddamalle:
I think something that's important there also — and with my background as an academic and with theology and Ph.D. and all that — is understanding specialties. And so I'll give an example and then relate it to you. If somebody came to me ... I have a Ph.D. in theology with an emphasis in biblical theology, particularly in the Paul's letter to Ephesians specifically in his household terminology. And if you notice how I said —
Jim Cress:
It's like a funnel.
Joel Muddamalle:
— it's like a funnel. So with that, you're like, "Hey, I'd love to talk about [inaudible] terminology.”
"Absolutely. I got you.”
"Hey, I want to talk about household.”
"Got you.”
"Hey, I want to talk about Pauline letters.”
"OK, I got you." But Pauline letters is a bit more wide than just Ephesians, right?”
I think it's important that you have got enough self-exploration of you knowing where you need your help. So what you said was so helpful, Jim; you're eclectic, but I know you enough to know that as you're engaging with somebody, you're saying, "Huh, it sounds like you need a specialist in this particular area.”
If somebody comes to me and they're talking and all of a sudden, they get into second-temple literature, and I'm like, "Hey, I think you need a second-temple literature expert." And I would just, as a suggestion, be paying attention to the people that you're talking to see that sense of humility and self-awareness of that clinician as well or that therapist to know their own limits and their credentials so that there's not that superhero complex that we've talked about before.
Lysa TerKeurst:
So, Joel, what would you say to someone who says, "I'm uneasy"? That going to see a counselor, a therapist, is really biblical?
Joel Muddamalle:
No, that's a great one. I can answer that quickly and distinctly. One of the significant words of the New Testament is therapeuo. Where do we get our word “therapist” from? The whole idea of that Greek word ... it's actually to recover wholeness.
Jim Cress:
That's beautiful.
Joel Muddamalle:
Isn't that beautiful?
Jim Cress:
Yeah.
Joel Muddamalle:
So what is Jesus doing consistently throughout His earthly ministry? He's trying to help us recover our wholeness spiritually, emotionally and physically. And so it's deeply biblical. It is also something that we have to have wisdom with. And so you can probably talk a little bit more about this. There's a difference from a human-centric, humanistic philosophy that presents you as the height of creation and everything has to filter through you versus a theological understanding of you are made in the likeness and image of God, so you have dignity and worth, and you also are — we call it in theological terms, the creation/Creator distinction — you are created, and there is a Creator.
And so I'm personally looking for therapists who are not going to necessarily feed into the ego of myself but help me see how I rightly relate in my world with others.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's good.
Joel Muddamalle:
And so that's probably the distinction I make.
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. Is counseling something that we need to consistently do forever?
Jim Cress:
Well, that's our worst frame of reality, right? Forever — and forever is a long, long time. So no, I want people to get more and more dependent on Christ, on the Word of God, on community, walking together and less and less dependent on the therapist. Therapists exists that ... One day when you're bored Google about the modern therapy movement of when that landed in America, and you will see that Freud pushed a lot of stuff in there.
And that's not a negative statement about Freud. When the church was failing to backing off of cure of souls and cure of the souls that's far too ... you go research that if you want. So the idea is the counseling movement exists now, and I've had some large church pastors say, "Cress, we've got you. We're not going to send them to an elder in our church. We're not going to do that.”
And so pastors, I think ... and I just live in the times I live in; I have indoor plumbing, right? And so now we're here, meaning we live in the times I have the internet. And so now we're in a professional counseling movement. I'm on the executive board of the American Association of Christian Counselors. We're trying to make a difference. It just is ... it's just here.
But even among counselors, you ought to work yourself out of a job. Now, look, there are some counselors — and I get it, no offense — who are hungry, and I understand that. It's like chum in the water sometimes. They find out they can get a new client; they're new, [and] they're starting out. I understand that. But a person ... if you discern this counselor is desperate to get you in there and to keep you, part of that ought to be: Are you changing? As St. Paul said, "The things you've learned and seen here, go put into practice.”
Otherwise you'll do James: You'll come look in the mirror of therapy and the Word of God once a week and immediately forget. And that's a secret I find with a lot of people. I'll check back and say, "What is your action plan to go put into practice? You're here with me next week." Now, as you know, I don't do the weekly anymore. I do intensives, but still I'll meet with people. Some people come back and do another intensive. I'll say, "What have you put into practice since the last time?" And I want to assess that.
The biggest failure, if I had to look at that camera and say ... here's the one thing I'd say: Whatever you learn in counseling and do bibliocounseling; that's the word for book. Go to Barnes and Noble somewhere. You get in for free. Sit down and read books, Google, read, find out what you can, get a notebook; journaling is personal therapy, and then go put that into practice with some accountability from some other people.
Joel Muddamalle:
I don't want that —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, because that's another question, what if I can't afford therapy or what if —
Jim Cress:
That's why you started Therapy & Theology, amen?
Lysa TerKeurst:
Exactly. Exactly.
Jim Cress:
To the T. Look at the amount of wisdom — and I'm not being arrogant with this because we're a team here, the three of us, and this team behind these cameras that nobody even sees — the amount of energy that goes in and preparation, starting with your vision. I'll never forget when you first said it and now go back and watch. Some people are listening to the audio; don't know you can watch our lovely faces on YouTube, right?
Go back and watch and re-watch and listen and time and time, and take notes, not just our show notes, and say, "What are my takeaways, and how do I go put this into practice?" Maybe you get three or four friends in a small group. Let's watch us some Therapy & Theology and discuss. You can do that, and it'll save you a lot of money.
Joel Muddamalle:
Can I just —
Jim Cress:
Yeah.
Joel Muddamalle:
— just tag onto that a little bit?
Jim Cress:
Please.
Joel Muddamalle:
One of the things that I've found is when it comes to the Bible, I think the Bible is the best interpreter of Scripture. Scripture's the best interpreter of Scripture. You notice in your Bible there's little cross-references.
Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.
Joel Muddamalle:
You ever wonder why they're there? It's for you to look up.
Jim Cress:
Hello?
Joel Muddamalle:
It's for you to track down and search, right? They're like, "I’ve got to flip pages." No, there's something beautiful. When you go and track down those cross-references because you see the large story of Scripture, how it's interconnected. And I just want to encourage y'all; Jim and Lysa are consistently dropping wisdom and nuggets. Jim, you're always quoting people and giving citations and resources.
Write them down; chase them down. Go read those books by the different people and use wisdom as you're doing it, obviously, but also recognize that, man, there's incredible opportunity for this to be a starting place. Not your ending spot but a starting place for your health journey that can lead you to other places of health and wholeness.
Jim Cress:
Quick honesty, real quick. Dead serious because it'll sound like I'm joking. [Some might say,] "You know what I don't like about what you all are saying? I definitely don't like what this Jim Cress guy is saying." It's far more relaxing to just scroll on Instagram and TikTok. I'm being very honest. I'm not just saying that for me, but I find people ... what we're doing is — I get it; I get social media — we are wiring our brains more and more and firing dopamine and watching [inaudible].
And so to get and do what you've said with the cross-references in this book alone, the best counseling manual ever. Or to say, I want to watch Therapy & Theology and take my own notes, and Proverbs and Therapy & Theology are very generous to hand out show notes. And we handed out the Healthy Conversations contract. I think we're wiring of this TikTok and Instagram, which I'm on, but it's like there's a sense that I don't want to do the work.
Some of us need to, which I understand, to really continue to grow up developmentally because it's a very young part and say, "I will do my due diligence to go find a counselor and take all this free counseling and put it into practice." Now I sound like a grouchy guy. I'll go back and watch the anger episode. You know I'm a passionate man, rather prophetic at times to say, "We've got to do this," because the brain is an operation, and you're not going to get all the dopamine fired when you're doing this plan cross-references. You walked not away.
Lysa TerKeurst:
If we have issues, then it's so much better to be informed than entertained.
Joel Muddamalle:
Totally.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I think part of the passion that we have with Therapy & Theology is to match the wisdom in the Bible, the wisdom in good therapy practices, and also the real-life everyday issues, and bring that together so that people can be informed, so that we can be informed and not just entertained.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yes.
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. I want to ask this question, and I don't want to open up a tremendous can of worms because we're at the end of this. We want to wrap up with this question, but, Joel, I really want you to comment on medication because there are a lot of questions about medication.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, I'm going to comment, and then we're going to tag team on this one. All right, so I'll say this. If you're worried theologically, biblically, like, "Oh my gosh, if I take medicine, is that a lack of faith in God?" Right? I just want you to be assured that in the Greco-Roman world, in the ancient world of the ancient Near East of the Old Testament, in the Greco-Roman world of the New Testament, the medicine was a consistent reality for people.
They used medicine for fevers, for illnesses, for diseases. Medicine was commonplace, and there was a deep faith that God is a God of miracles, that you can pray and that God would heal. Right? And you know what we find more often than not, I think is the normative practice of God. God is consistently using His common grace, which is called medicine and therapists and doctors, who has creatively, uniquely wired in such a way to figure out how the body works that He designed Himself to be able to treat us and to be able to get.
So I would say no, medicine in and of itself is absolutely not anti-faith. Now, like anything — and this is, Jim, where I'll tag you in — it also has to be stewarded well.
Jim Cress:
Absolutely.
Joel Muddamalle:
And we have to have wisdom in determining, OK, is the goal of this medication to regain — Paul uses the language of sober-minded — is the goal to regain my sobriety, to make sure I've got a clear mind that can think the way that God intended? Or is it going to dilute my mind? Is it going to compromise the way that I think? And so those are some of the filters that I want us to think through with it. But in general, no, medication is God's gift to us, and very often [needed] in order for us to regain clarity of mind.
Jim Cress:
Yeah, amen, and I agree. So I've had it in years of hosting calls in counseling shows that most of which were therapy shows, people would call in with this question about a thousand times. And that is, is taking a medication like an SSRI — an antidepressant, antianxiety med — is that showing a lack of faith? And I remember one time out of my mouth, I said, "Thank you, God, for that." I said, "Taking a medication often does not show a lack of faith. It's actually an act of faith." Leviticus, Word of God, He gave leaves for healing. Luke, who was a physician, got to write one-fourth of the gospels and the whole book of Acts. So there is —
Joel Muddamalle:
And why is Luke with Paul the entire time? Homeboy’s getting beat up, whopped —
Jim Cress:
Exactly.
Joel Muddamalle:
— he's getting abandoned. He needs to get bandaged up —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Snake bites.
Joel Muddamalle:
Snake bites. He needs to get bandaged up consistently. I mean, he literally had his own physician with him.
Jim Cress:
ER doc on call, right?
Joel Muddamalle:
On call.
Jim Cress:
So I think that's the idea. And, Joel, you alluded to this, look, there ain't a thing out there that we can't take something good and run it out, and it becomes basically a crutch force in an unhealthy way. The research would show and experience would show, if you take a medication, take that and do underlying issues, forgive. Work on your family of origin trauma or wherever your trauma came from. Do the deeper work because the neuropathways to the brain get out of whack. And so if you take a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, an SSRI, it's just helping the serotonin stay where it needs to be.
And then underneath that, do, quite frankly, even the homeopathic work, exercise, sunlight, do all like that, all the work you're supposed to do, and it will help you. Yet some people, if you look at bipolar — this is like five shows in one second — there are issues that probably the person's never going to come off that medication. I have friends, people close to me, on Zoloft, and it has changed their life, right?
Joel Muddamalle:
Yes.
Jim Cress:
But they do their work underneath it. They're not at a PEZ dispenser of just popping Prozacs. I am not making fun of that. Do the deeper work around that, and it all works together.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Thank you so much, Jim. Thank you, Joel, and thank you for tuning in. I hope that today's episode has been helpful. This is one of those episodes where we want to make sure that there is more help out there than you have problems. And so a big part of that is joining into Therapy & Theology, but don't limit it to just us. Go out there; do the healing work. And we believe if you know the Truth and you live the Truth, it changes everything.