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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
If you're a regular listener,
you might be wondering,
has Elle turned British?
No, my friend.
Elle is usually sitting in the
chair asking the questions,
but today I, Hattie the PMM,
product marketing career coach
to now over 1,000 PMMs, I'm
taking over hosting Product
Marketing Adventures, and
Elle is in the hot seat.
Elle has interviewed elite
PMMs from some of the world's
biggest organizations.
However, no one has
ever sat her down and
delved into your host.
Well, my friend,
today is that day.
Elle has a ridiculously
fascinating background.
She has worked at startups
all the way to enterprise.
While at a startup, she
created a global partner
program from scratch and
was the number one reason
the company got acquired.
Elle has since been a product
marketing leader at Twilio
and Cisco, managing 4 billion
with a B portfolio, launching
tier one products, leading
major company initiatives and
narratives that have shaped
the future of that portfolio.
She's been the go-to-market
strategist at Gartner, helping
clients bring new products
and services to market.
She's been named top 100
Sharebird mentor three
years in a row, and
also named top 100 PMM
influencer from the PMA.
She's the-- now the creator
and host of Product Marketing
Adventures podcast, garnering
nearly 1,000 listeners
per month within its
first year of existence.
And her most exciting
project to date is now she's
a founder of Dusted, which
will be now two months into
its beta at the time that
you're listening to this.
So I will be your host today.
I'm Hattie, and we
will uncover more
behind the amazing Elle
Thank you so much, Hattie.
What a very generous intro.
I feel so honored to have
you as my guest host today
Yeah.
Thank you.
And I'm excited to get into
more around you because
when I think of you,
Elle, I think of the word
expertise, and I genuinely
believe that this will be
the word of the next decade.
So there is no better
person to speak to
this topic than you.
How would you define
the word expertise?
before I get into my personal
definition of expertise, I
wanna share I'll say a, a
newly found philosophy that
I've come to hold, and that
is your expertise should not
only be valuable when somebody
decides to employ you.
Let me say that again, 'cause
that's kind of a mouthful.
Your expertise should not only
be valuable when somebody else
decides to hire you for a job.
I'm gonna get into why
that is, but let me dig
into that a little bit, and
it's a little bit more of
my personal belief, right?
So your-- my personal belief
is that you were born with
talents that make you you.
Your innate skills.
You don't have to try to
do well because they just
come so naturally to you.
So for me, for example,
it's my enthusiasm.
I don't have to try
to be enthusiastic.
It just comes out.
Like, you're gonna get it.
I can't, I can't hold
it back if I tried.
So that's what I mean, like
there's something about
you that's innate, and
it makes you who you are.
But that's not all.
So I believe that expertise
is a combination of your lived
experience and the skills
that you learn along the way
through your lived experience,
the things that are
teachable, plus in addition
to, the innate skills.
So those things put together,
the lived experiences
and your innate skills,
that's your expertise.
So that lived experience that
I was talking about, that
could come from roles that
you've held, projects that
you've led, tools that you've
learned about, um, your wins,
your failures, how you've
learned to make decisions.
So again, it's your uni-unique
combination of lived
experiences and innate skills.
That's expertise
That's so good.
And I love the fact when you
said you don't have to try,
because I love the analogy
of a tree doesn't have
to force fruit out of it.
You know?
It doesn't have to try, it
just naturally comes out
Exactly.
That's exactly it
So good.
So what's changed that's
made expertise such a
critical topic right now?
I think nobody will
be surprised by this.
Um, it's AI.
Um,
so let me state a few
things that I think are
obvious, but maybe you don't
immediately think about.
So because of AI, the playing
field has been leveled, right?
Anyone can now have a
polished resume, a polished
blog post point of view, a
polished framework, et cetera.
So now that's something that
we all can have, something
that's polished and, and
appears on the surface to
be perfectly put together.
But at the same time,
something else is happening
in the job market, and I'm
gonna speak more specifically
to marketing because that's
the world that I live in.
I can't speak to beyond that.
Um, you know, I'm not an
economist, of course, but I
do talk to a lot of marketers
every day, um, including
hiring manager, and I've
been a hiring manager myself.
So what we're seeing in the
job world is pressure, okay?
Pressure for-- Now,
now think specifically
for hiring managers.
Pressure to have leaner
teams, to do-- I, I don't
mean do more with less, I
mean to leverage AI more
so that you don't have to
have expensive resources.
Or I guess the resources
are shifting from human
resources to more technology
resources, which is something
that's been happening
for a long, long time.
Long, long time.
We're just seeing
more of it with AI.
Um, so because of
that, there's a ton of
competition for jobs.
I think a lot of folks out
there probably feel that.
and as hiring managers, we
have to be, or we can be,
we get to be a little bit
more selective about who we
decide to put in for the job.
like-- Now let's come
back to the, the candidate
side of things, right?
Like us, everyday people
who are seeking jobs, and
by the way, even sometimes
the hiring manager suddenly
finds herself or himself
put in that role too.
Everybody who is employed by a
company is a job seeker, okay?
Whether you think you
are, you're not, you're
always a job seeker.
You should be anyway,
and we'll get into more
why a little bit later
in this discussion.
But coming to the, the job
seeker side of the house
now, simply saying when
you see a job posting that
you think aligns really
well with your background,
simply saying like, "I
know how to do this job.
Here's my resume,
hiring manager," that
isn't enough anymore.
You need to show how
you've actually done the
work, how you think about
it, your thought process,
your decision-making.
That is becoming increasingly
more important because
Again, everybody's leaning
on AI to fill in the gaps.
So let's think a little bit
more about this AI piece.
AI can borrow knowledge.
That's, that's
exactly what it does.
It's that plus very
complex statistics and
predictability models.
That's basically it, right?
It's borrowed knowledge built
on math, very simply said.
But it does not have your
lived experiences, and
it certainly does not
have your innate skills.
So AI makes proof of
your expertise all
the more important.
So that is why this
is such a critical
conversation right now
My goodness, it's so true.
Even because I'm a career
coach to product marketers
and I'm-- El, I'm seeing it
through hundreds of people
that I'm coaching at right
now because they utilize
AI and it's leveraging
making the playing field
the exact- exactly the
same for a lot of people.
But it means that they
aren't actually delving
into the why and who they
are behind the scenes.
So it's so, so, so critical.
I'm definitely seeing
it in the market.
So you've talked about
the resume losing
some of its value.
What's happening there,
and how does this impact
marketers in the long run?
Yeah, yeah.
So let's, again, kind
of state some obvious
things just so that we're
all on the same page.
What is a resume really?
A resume is basically
compressing your years of
work into a few bullet points
collected underneath each
role or job you've ever held.
And of course, you wanna
show the outcome, right?
So then what happens is
your resume becomes a
list of what you did.
It's a list.
Y- as much as you try for
it not to be a list, and
when-- I've been there.
I-- you try, 'cause you
don't-- that's all of the
great resume advice out
there tells you, don't
make it a laundry list.
So I've tried.
I've been there.
But it kinda-- it's a, it's
literally bullet points.
Don't tell me it's not a list.
Like, that's, that's what
it's called in grammar.
literally, that's
literally what my
shopping list looks like.
It's bullet points.
Exactly.
It is.
It is.
So now remember what
I just said, right?
AI has created leaner
teams, more competition
for jobs, and companies
can now be more selective.
And because more people
are applying to jobs, your
resume can't stand out 'cause
now everybody is trying
to word the perfect bullet
point, and it's just, it's
overwhelming from a hiring
manager's perspective.
So it just doesn't help
you stand out anymore.
Like, resumes are all starting
to sound and look the same.
So differentiator becomes
not what you did, but the
thinking underneath all of
those bullet points, right?
It's the problems, the
decisions, the trade-offs, the
execution, the lessons that
you've learned, and again,
that's the lived experiences
plus your innate skills.
So all of a sudden,
when you're in this
job seeker, mode, it's,
"Show me the proof. Let
me see your expertise."
Hmm.
So good.
Instead of show me the money,
it's show me the proof.
So good.
Because it's like the, the
recruiters or the hiring
managers are seeing like
10, maybe 15 people per
day in rows, and they're
like, "Oh, everyone looks
the exact same." It's like
monolith when they come
out of AI, so completely.
How do you think about
career security today?
You've been the product
marketing leader to
billion-dollar tech companies.
Has the relationship
between employees and
employers changed?
Yeah.
Um, and I'm curious after
I share my perspective
what you're seeing with,
with your clients as well.
So I have been so fortunate
to have been placed in
companies like Twilio and
Gartner and Cisco, and
even smaller startups where
I get to work alongside
really smart people, people
way smarter than me that
I've gotten to learn from.
And I look at these super
accomplished, some of
them, you know, Ivy League
educated, and I've seen them
unexpectedly lose their jobs.
Even the best of the best.
And I think all of us
have probably in the last,
even in the last week,
if you've logged on to
LinkedIn, you might see
post after post after post
of, desperation almost.
It's tragic.
It's heartbreaking.
People who are on the brink
of homelessness trying to,
find their next opportunity
because they were laid off.
now I know that sounds
very much like a Debbie
Downer, and that's not the
position I like to take.
I have over the years
I've learned, 'cause you
learn through my lived
experiences, I've learned
to look at every situation
from a point of leverage.
meaning, what do I
have control over here?
What can I leverage?
And then how, like that,
whatever that thing is, how
can I keep it so that that's
what I have control over?
So again, like thinking
back to some of those folks
who were laid off, like
I was genuinely shocked.
I was shocked because these
were super talented people.
Some of them were, you know,
senior leaders in a company
that, I think the world of.
So my point in saying that
is that no company can
guarantee your future.
So my thought about all this
between like relationship
between like employment and
employee, employer and, and
employee and thinking about,
you know, job security is
don't wait until you need it.
Like protect your point of,
your position of leverage.
so a tip that I've had from
a mentor, and I've collected
mentors over the years.
I've been so lucky to
have really wonderful,
incredibly smart, and
generous people put in my
life to guide me and help me.
And, I've had this one mentor
who was like, "You should
always be entertaining, um,
interviews from recruiters
who might knock on your door.
That's just good hygiene,
good practice." And you know
why she said that? She's
like, " always keep the door
open, always be expanding
your network, and simply
for practice." And why?
Because that's just
one way that you can
protect your leverage.
100%. I feel like leverage
is the one thing that if
you're ever going to utilize
to compound your career
in the right direction,
that's the thing to do it.
Because over here, Elle,
when I'm coaching product
marketing managers or
marketers in general, or
even people in product, they
literally have to-- It's
like they have to wait until
they're ho-hospitalized to
care about their health.
That's how I see it.
When actually it would be
better off if you go to the
gym before something goes
wrong, and I think that's
what we're speaking about here
is like gym versus hospital.
So instead of waiting…
until something bad happens
to then care about it,
don't be reactive with
your career, like lay off
and then you think about
your resume, and then
you're thinking about your
portfolio, and then you're
thinking about networking.
It's like, no, dude,
like you have to treat
your career like the gym.
You have to take it seriously
with intention, and I
think intention is the word
that
has been missing from a
lot of people's careers
'cause leverage doesn't
happen without intention.
You have to be intentional
about it, right?
Absolutely.
Exactly.
Yes, and I love your
gym hospital analogy.
I'm even like, I immediately
think of, people who are
in their 50s, 60s, and
they're realizing that
like, "Oh, I didn't have
an exercise regimen,"
and it's catching up.
So was there a moment when you
realised actually we do need a
better way to hold onto all of
our work, all of our knowledge
with leverage, with intention
that we've accumulated
throughout our careers?
Ah, I love this
question so much.
Um, and I wrote about this on
LinkedIn a couple months ago.
but it makes me immediately
think of my physical
portfolio that I had at the
very beginning of my career.
Um, and so y- you've
probably seen these, right?
They're the physical, like,
accordion style, like, folder
system that you can open
up, and you can spread it
out, and there's all these
little, like, folders that
you can stick literally
physical documents inside.
Old school.
Old school, because
that's what marketing was.
I mean, yes, there were
websites, and yes, there
were, like, digital campaigns,
and digital marketing
was more of a, was like
its own discipline, and
now everything is digital
marketing, in my opinion.
But, um, there is still
some physical stuff.
But, um, there was so
much more of, frankly,
just printing your
marketing materials.
There were brochures, there
were leave-behinds, there
were product slicks, and
there's just, there's so
much that, that I had proof
of the work that I had done.
So I had this accordion
style… You know what?
Let me show you
a picture of it.
Just to-- Sorry for
anyone who's, um,
listening to the audio.
Don't worry, there's a
picture on LinkedIn somewhere.
But, um, I'll, we'll just
very quickly show you.
this is the
picture right here.
Do you see it?
I do.
My goodness.
yes, this is my original
portfolio that I
created with intention.
And you'll see some of
the, some of the pages are,
some of the little stuff
inside's, like, a little
wrinkled 'cause it's so old.
Looks like it's had like
coffee stained or something.
But my
goodness, look at all
those little slots.
It's just,
uh… That's,
overwhelming to me to look
right?
I know.
Okay, so I can stop
sharing for a minute.
But that's what I mean.
That was my portfolio,
and I would actually carry
it around with me when I
would go to interviews.
I brought that thing with me.
And so when I'd be in
conversation with some- with,
you know, a recruiter or a
hiring manager or someone,
and I'd be like, "Well, let
me show you," and I'd open it
up and I'd pull out the thing.
but my point in sharing this
is that I think everyone has,
everyone my age or older,
um probably had a version
of that, you know, version
of some kind of folder,
physical folder, where
you put your stuff inside.
And today, people are still
saving your, their work.
if you're smart, you're
saving your work, and I
think most of the people out
there are decently smart.
So we're all saving
our work anyway.
Just today, instead
of being in a big
accordion-style folder,
it's in a Google Drive.
It's in a, you know, Dropbox.
It's, unfortunately now
scattered across a couple
different devices, maybe,
like, your personal laptop
from college m- combined
with, like, now your new
work laptop, but you're
getting a-- you, you also
have a tablet, you know.
So it's kind of spread
across all your devices.
Um, it's still a
little scattered.
It's still… You know, maybe
you might take a screenshot
of something here and there.
But now we're in a place
where once you get to a point
where, okay, now I am ready
to look for my new role,
you're playing, I'm calling
it career memory, but, like,
it's harder to recall the
things that you did and where
everything was because you're
con- you're just spending
time searching for it.
And A, you may not have
everything, B, you may
not know where everything
is, and then C, even if
you do find it, you don't
remember how you did it.
Like, I can't tell you how
many times I've been in a
new role, and I came up with
a, you know, I have came
up against a challenge or
something, and I'm like, "Oh,
man, I've done this before.
How did I do that?" Like,
and I have to sit back and
think how I did it, and it,
and I'd be like, "Oh, man, I
wish I would've saved the, you
know, the brief or something.
I wish I would've
had a journal.
I w- you know, wish I had
something that detailed how
I did it and what the impact
was and…" So anyway, my
whole point in sharing all
of this is that your career
knowledge should compound
instead of disappear.
So my accordion portfolio was
basically the analog version
of what Dusted is today.
That's so good.
And I've never heard anyone
say career memory, but it's so
true because I remember when
I had a VP of marketing who
was like-- I was in my role.
It wasn't even like
I was at the start
of this new role, El.
I was like, I think two,
three years deep in, and
then she was like, "Hey,
I remember when you were a
CMO previously, you worked
on this type of project."
So I was like, "I did."
And she was like, "Can you
refer back to your notes and
everything, and then we can
like take those learnings
and apply it here so we
can save time?" I was like,
"Absolutely." I was like
rummaging through every
single box in my house, El,
trying to find this freaking
drive where I saved all
the intel, and I'm like, "I
have literally lost it, and
now I have to rely on my
memory from seven years ago.
This is absurd." in some
ways, it felt like I didn't
even have that experience.
Do you know how wild that was?
I literally felt like I didn't
even have that experience or
have those memories or have
something that I can refer
back to from seven years ago,
'cause El, if you asked me
what I ate on last Sunday,
I would be like, "I don't
freaking know what I ate.
I
I don't remember what
far."
yesterday.
Like
Right?
Now let's, let's talk about
Dusted because you mentioned
that Dusted is the digital
version of that analog
accordion portfolio that
you shared on the screen.
So what is Dusted?
So Dusted is GitHub
for marketers.
And what I mean by that
is if you think to,
well, what is GitHub?
I think most of us know,
but some people just have
heard the name GitHub but
maybe don't know what it is.
So essentially GitHub is the
place where developers go to
share their code, they connect
with one another, they learn
from each other, but they're
really proving their craft.
They're saying, "Hey, this
is how good of a coder I
am. This is how good of a
developer I am. Look what
I made." Now, I realized
that for marketers, we don't
have anything like that.
At best we have, you know,
a handful of screenshots
or, you know, maybe if, you
know, a company doesn't take
it down, there's a video
somewhere or, there's a, a
PDF of a presentation I did.
Like maybe there's a handful
of things here and there,
but we don't have anything.
So what I realized we need
for marketers is a place
where you can actually
turn what you've done into
proof of your expertise
to preserve your career
memory and do so much more.
So, Dusted is a place
where you can show how you
think and learn from your
peers on one platform.
So right now, Dusted is
a place where marketers
are doing just that.
They're taking, um,
examples of their work
and they're transforming
them into case study
artifacts, and that's the
foundation of Dusted today.
But my vision and where
Dusted head- is heading
is, is much bigger than
just a case study platform.
Hmm.
That's so good.
Um, where did Dusted
come from as a brand?
'Cause we're all
marketers here.
There's marke- there's
definitely a marketer
listening to this
conversation, so
let's break it down.
Its standout name,
visual identity, what's
the story behind it?
How did you market Dusted?
Yes, yes.
Um, thank you for asking
'cause I actually love
telling this story.
So, um, we've talked
a lot about expertise,
and that is really the
crux of the platform.
That is the value that Dusted
brings to the world is the
expertise of marketers.
And when I thought
about, okay, what am I
gonna call this thing?
I tried to think of like,
okay, well this is really
all about the experts,
like the, the experts
who are bringing their
expertise to the platform.
So I thought, okay, well what
does an expert look like?
Like what does someone
look like when they're
good at something?
And in business it just
got kind of boring the more
that I thought about it
And so I got personal
and I am personally
an outdoorsy person.
Anyone who's a regular
listener of this podcast,
you know that Product
Marketing Adventures, right?
You hear like the, the
footsteps walking on down a
gravel path at the beginning.
It's very like
adventure oriented.
so I thought, okay, well
what does someone look
like when they are really
a, a experienced and
expert like backpacker,
rock climber, hiker, like
what do you look like?
And I thought of the
last time that I went
backpacking and at the end
of that trip I was filthy.
I was so dirty.
Like I was, I was caked with
dirt like, like on my, on my
ankles and like, you know,
all my stuff was dirty, right?
Like I was dusted.
So that's kind of how I
came with the name Dusted
and just the more that I
thought about it and the
more that I was kind of like
journaling and ideating on
like, well, you know, kind
of what the brand would look
and feel like, I thought of
how well that connected back
to leaving evidence that,
that you were there, right?
That, you know, leaving the
evidence that you've been
down the trail, you know,
that you've done it before,
like proving that you've been
there because I wouldn't, I
wouldn't be dusty, wouldn't
be dusted if I hadn't
actually done the work.
So I thought that that was
a really strong, symbolism
and then I really leaned
heavy into that and that's
so much of the, even the
experience of the platform.
So I'll give you just
a couple examples.
So you know how some other
platforms you can, you know,
earn badges or like, you
know, like Reddit has karma.
Yeah, I think, I think
GitHub also has like badges
that you can earn, right?
So I wanted something similar,
on Dusted 'cause I wanted
it to be fun 'cause I'm fun.
At least I, I think I'm fun
You definitely are, yes.
you, Addy.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So, so instead of badges,
Dusted has patches, right?
Because if you're an outdoorsy
person, you, you know,
you collect patches, you
put them on your backpack,
like all the things.
So on Dusted you'll
earn patches, but you
also have patches that
you can give away.
So for example, every month
every user on Dusted gets
what's called a Toasty
Marsh- marshmallow patch.
Actually, you get three
of them every month.
And your toasty marshmallow
patch is not for you to
keep, it's for you to
give to another member.
And the whole point of the
toasty marshmallow patch
is that you give it to
someone who is really kind
and helpful and generous.
And like say someone created
a case study on how they
y- you know, increased
product adoption, and
it was really helpful.
You had, you asked, you
asked them a question on
their case study and they
responded, and so that was
really nice of them to take
time out of their life and
busy day to respond to some
stranger on the internet.
So you're like, "That was
really nice. I'm gonna
give this person a toasty
marshmallow patch." Now
fast-forward like over
time, let's say now like
on Hattie's Dusted profile,
she has like 100 toasty
marshmallow patches.
I'm gonna assume that
Hattie's a really nice person.
She's kind and
generous with her time.
So that's just an example.
There are t- there are a
handful of patches that you
can earn, both as a member
giving to another member,
but then also from the earn
just automatically from
the platform through, um,
contributing high quality,
helpful, useful content.
So that's one way that, that
I was kind of leaning into
this like outdoorsy adventure.
Another one is through
like gear in your pack.
So when you're an outdoorsy
person, if you go camping, if
you go hiking, if you go rock
climbing, like you need gear,
and the kind of gear that
you use is really important
and it signals what you do.
So for example, if you're a
rock climber, you've got like
carabiners and like up, you
know, all the things that
you need to go rock climbing.
If you go camping, like
you have a tent, you have
a sleeping pad, like you've
got things that are needed
for those activities.
So similarly on Dusted,
you have what's called
gear in your pack.
So when you write out a
case study, and let's say
I was writing a case study
about, um, you know, maybe
customer intelligence
program that I was putting
together, and I named maybe
GetWise and UserEvidence
and SurveyMonkey, right?
I named those tools.
Now those tools show up as
the gear in my pack, and that
signals to everyone else the
kind of marketing that I do.
Now here's what's even cooler.
Vendors are also part
of the Dusted ecosystem.
So all of those vendors that
I just named in my case study
now have profiles on Dusted.
And if you went to, and
I'm making this up, but
let's say you go to the
SurveyMonkey vendor page,
and then my case study
shows up there, and everyone
else who has also used
that vendor shows up there.
So you can start to
see, well how are other
marketers using these tools?
And what use cases are
they using them for?
And what was the outcome?
And are they marketers
who look like me?
Are they in the
same discipline?
Are they in the same, you
know, segment of company size?
Like the all of this becomes
information and valuable
information that you can
learn from your peers, from
the Dusted ecosystem to make
you a stronger marketer.
So Again, coming kind of back
to, like, the overall brand,
'cause that was the question,
um, I think, like, my goal
for this was at the end of
the day, like, I wanted it to
feel like authentically me,
but also fun and human, and
I didn't want it to feel like
a homework or another, you
know, professional obligation.
I wanted users to enjoy
their experience on Dusted
Wow.
I can really feel your actual
passion and care that went
into building out DUSTED,
and I freaking love the name.
You know?
I just… 'Cause I've
been camping a few times.
Yeah, you're very welcome.
I've, I've, I've had that
dust on me on my legs,
and I'm like, "Huh, yeah,
I guess that's a sign
that I actually did it,"
and I really love that.
I think that's really
wonderful, and it just
goes to show when you're
senior in marketing, you
can freaking market your
own product as well.
This is phenomenal.
You did great, Elle.
This is awesome.
Thank you
So, for someone who's
listening who's wondering if
they are dusted, you know,
if they have enough expertise
that actually qualifies
them, does expertise need to
be a huge win or influence
pipeline and revenue as we
commonly hear, or what does
expertise actually qualify as?
Yes, that's a good question,
and it's so funny because
I literally had someone
who joined Dusted and
then sent me, like, an
InMail on LinkedIn asking
me a similar question.
And I almost, like, felt bad.
I'm like, "Oh, you didn't have
to, like, waste a LinkedIn
InMail on this." Like, but
made me realize I need to make
myself more available to the
Dusted users or something.
But anyway, so
No, I feel like it's, it's
more like imposter syndrome
sometimes kicks in, and I
think that's, that's the
thing that stifles a lot of
people when they're like,
"Oh, I need to seek validation
on whether my expertise is
enough." But yeah, I'd love
to hear from you, like, what--
Is it enough to just… Yeah,
let's
Yes.
Yes.
I have a feeling we're
gonna talk a lot about this.
So, my first thought on this
is that I think expertise
can be expressed in so
many different ways, right?
And sometimes it's the
little decisions that you
made that really paid off,
and I'm gonna give you an
example of a case study
that's live on Dusted today.
This, um, the author, the
marketer, uh, marketing author
of this case study, This, by
the way, is the single most
viewed case study with, like,
thousands of views, which
for a very small, very new
platform is, that's a lot.
Like, all the other, all the
other case studies have like,
you know, sub 100 views.
This one has, like,
thousands, multiple thousands.
so I think for her, when I,
when I saw that case study,
what's really interesting
about it is that, like, she
didn't have some, like, you
know, it's not like she's
like, "Oh, I put together
this really big, like,
you know, the billboard on
101," or, like, you know,
"I pulled off, like, a
super successful, like, you
know, huge booth presence
at, like, the Consumer
Electric Show, like CES."
Like, it wasn't some,
like, big thing.
Actually, all she did wa- it's
not, I don't wanna, I don't
wanna minimize what she did.
It was very cool, very
creative, but, like, what
she did was she works
somewhere very technical,
in the manufacturing
space, and she took a very
technical process and she
thought, "You know what?
It sounds like it would
be really helpful.
I'm gonna make a 3D model
of this so that salespeople
can use it to show customers
in face-to-face meetings
what we're trying to talk
about here." And that was
an extremely successful.
it was just very creative.
Like, it wa- and so what I
loved about that is that it
was showing her expertise as
creative problem-solving, and
it wasn't like, yes, it was
successful, but it's not like
she's like, "Yeah," like, "I,
you know, increased pipeline
by, you know, 80% by this
cool campaign." Like, all
those things matter, too,
but you d- sometimes showing
your expertise doesn't have
to look like some big win.
in fact, the smaller decisions
that you've made along the
way are sometimes the thing
that make the biggest impact.
So no, I don't think someone
needs, you know, some
massive revenue number or
some, like, famous outcome.
You know, I think, like, for
her, again, I'm not trying
to trivialize it, but,
like, she made a diorama.
Like, that was huge.
Like, it was cool also,
and I will say, as someone
who enjoys crafting,
that sounds very fun.
So
I think that's so cool
I'm sure she had it, like,
professionally made, so
I'm, I don't think she was,
like, running off to the
craft store, you know, with
pipe cleaners and and foam
board.
but but it was
still very cool.
It was, uh, you know, amazing
to see how she was able to
take, you know, something like
that, like use her expertise
and show it on Dust It
Gosh.
And it just goes to show,
when I think, like, what would
drive thousands of views to
see someone thinking, that
is like the perfect example
because it's not necessarily
about the 3D model, it's
about the thinking and
the creativity behind it,
and it's the expertise of
that person that has led
to that outcome, and it
could be anything, right?
And I, I think that's
what I love about it.
It's
really
Yes, exactly.
And if I look at this
person, she's, 'cause
she's another case study as
well, like, it's that she
has… It's exactly what
I'm saying about expertise.
It's your lived experiences.
So her lived experiences give
her, gave her the, the skills
to be able to identify what's
needed, to see everything on
the table, to see what the
gaps are, to see what the
challenges are, and then the
creativity to be like, "Here's
how I'm gonna solve this, but
I'm not gonna solve it the
way that, you know, everyone
in the book solves it.
I'm gonna solve it in a way
that's gonna make us stand
out, that's gonna do the
thing that we need to do,
and that's gonna achieve
the goal and fill this gap."
Yeah, it's so good.
I love it.
I love it when I see creative
marketers, especially doing
it outside of the job.
I think sometimes our
jobs might not be so
creative, but we can
have those opportunities
if we carve it out.
Which leads me into, nicely
into my next question, because
I don't know about you, Elle,
but I'm a creature of habit.
You know, I, I live
and die by my habits.
I live and die
by my discipline.
Always, always, my girlfriend.
So one thing that I'm
curious about is how can we
build a habit of actually
documenting our expertise?
If someone is already so busy
in their career, their life,
they have kids, they have, you
know, social life, like what's
the shortcut to do that?
Yeah.
So, I think it's easiest
to capture something,
like while you're doing
it rather than trying to
rebuild it or reconstruct
it a few years later.
And I learned that the hard
way because it wasn't a habit.
It wasn't.
And I've tried to build a
lot of this into Dusted.
So, I hope that some of
this is also like it's fun
to do, like you get like
some satisfaction out of it.
It feels good to like put
some effort in and then be
like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's
good." You know what I mean?
When you make something.
I'm talking specifically
about a case study that's
like showing off your work.
It feels really
good to see it.
So there's a few ways that
can, I think, help make
it more of a practice or
a discipline or a habit.
So, one is that as you
complete projects, rather
than just like moving on to
the next, I have even like
what I started doing close
to the end of my career, I
did it on a quarterly basis
when we were doing… The
same time that I was doing
like a look back on the
quarter and I was preparing
that quarterly conversation
with my stakeholders and my
leadership team, I would do
that for myself too, and I
would like take all the things
that I was really proud of,
and then I would start to put
it into, you know, files or,
you know, whatever I needed.
I
In that accordion in
no, not in, in my
digital version.
It moved digital.
I know, I'm like
printing things out.
Like,
No's
but what I've done with Dusted
to try to make it really easy
is that, first of all, we have
an MCP, and if you don't know
what an MCP is, it's basically
a connector that plugs right
into your AI tool of choice,
and you can talk to whatever.
If you use Claude, for
example, you can just
say like, "Hey," for all
of you marketers who are
working in Claude anyway,
"Hey, remember that
campaign that we just did?
Like post, publish a
case study on Dusted."
And it'll… It won't,
sorry, it won't publish.
You have to log in to
actually hit publish because
I wanna leave that final
step in control of a human,
not an AI, um, machine.
but it will draft it for
you based on the work that
you've already done in
whatever AI tool that was.
The other thing that I've
done is I have-- So, uh,
I have a framework and a
style for how I interview
people on the podcast, and
I took that framework and
I've applied it to Dusted.
And I also, all of the
questions that I would ask to
try to get good information
out of my guests, I have
trained an AI model on that,
and that is the interview
me, what I'm calling Ranger,
'cause again, everything
Dusted is very outdoorsy,
so think like park ranger.
So Ranger on Dusted will
interview you just like I
would interview you to try
to get the goodness out of
your expertise, out of your
experiences, and draft a
case study for you And then
finally, another option is--
Actually, I have four options
'cause this is the third one
that I've built into Dusted.
Um, you can upload documents.
So if you have, for example,
again, I imagine I've just
completed my look back for
the quarter, and I've got
like a handful of, you know,
campaigns that I developed
or a big project that I did,
I can upload the campaign
brief, I can upload all of
those documents into Dusted,
and it'll automatically
draft a case study on it.
And then all I have to do
is just make some tweaks,
some edits, and publish.
And then, of course, you can
just like write from scratch.
Like you can do
that, of course.
Um, but my goal was to, to
make it habit so that it
wasn't a time-consuming habit,
so it was something that
you're not starting from zero.
I'm like lowering the
hurdle for you to be able
to, get some of that career
memory back without--
'cause you're busy.
You've got kids, you've
got, you know, a life,
you have activities, you
have extracurriculars,
you've got volunteer jobs.
Like there's pe-
people are busy.
They have a life.
And while I am saying you
have to like leverage and
protect your… Or, or sorry,
protect your leverage, there
are ways, and I'm trying to
create ways for you to do that
without sacrificing hours and
hours and hours of your life.
so again, like I'm looking
at this from the angle of
protecting your leverage
and you know, especially for
when you're into a new role.
I really love that.
I generally do.
I, I love the fact that
Dusted does the heavy
lifting because I… This
is why my clients absolutely
love Dusted, by the way.
Like, there's so many of them
who use it because they're
like, "I need something
that does the heavy lifting
for me, and I can just use
Interview Me to get all
of the stories out of me."
Because you know
what's wild is?
For me, when I was
reconstructing and trying
to figure out all of the
case studies and stories
and what I've accomplished,
even for my annual review
at an organization, I was
like, " I can't recall it."
I was like, I had to go
through my calendar and try
and find notes in my Apple
Notes app, and I was like,
"Uh, it is scattered all
over the freaking place."
And when I was doing my
quarterly reviews after
that heinous experience, I
was like, "Okay, I need…"
If I had Dusted when I was
still in corporate, I, I
freaking would've loved it
'cause Personally, I love
doing reflection seasons.
I love looking back on
a quarter or a year and
then looking back and
saying, "Okay, cool.
How do I then keep this re-
uh, retained information and
then showcase this in a way
that benefits others, benefits
me, but also keeps it really
fresh in my mind?" So yeah,
I love the fact that Dusted
has literally solved this
issue. Like, this is a burning
issue that I face, my clients
face, and so many marketers
face, where they're like, "I'm
doing the work, but I just
aren't capturing it anywhere.
It's just gone in the ether,
and like it's disappeared.
It's like turned to, to
nothing." So I l- I love it.
I really do.
It's amazing.
Yeah.
Thank you
So good.
Okay, so I'm going to play
devil's advocate, Elle.
There might be someone
who's listening right now
and they're like, "Okay,
that's great. I do want to
capture my expertise and my
experience and everything
that I've been doing, but what
if my work finds out? Like,
how would they-- Like, what
would they feel about that?"
So where do you draw the
line between talking about
things that you've done
versus sharing work that
belongs to your company?
Because, hey, no one
wants to get in trouble
up in their corporate
career in this house, but
equally, what's, what's
the balance of ownership?
Because even I, uh, I'll
speak to myself on this,
because as a coach, I, I
definitely tell people,
Elle, like, just capture
your freaking information,
your details, like all of
the projects that you've
been creating, everything
that you've even assisted.
It doesn't even have to be
driven by you if you were,
you know, an, uh, assistance
to a project happening, so
you were the quarterback.
Because the goal is to make
sure that your career is
going in the right direction.
But even I have had clients
who are like, "But where's the
balance between the two?" What
are your thoughts on that?
Yes, I know exactly what
you mean, especially when
I'm saying things like,
"Upload documents into
Dusted." Um, on that note,
we don't save the documents.
They don't get saved anywhere.
They're not stored anywhere.
Um, and that's all in
our privacy statement.
But, um, I'm gonna give you
an example and, um, recall
back to my time at Gartner.
So when I was at Gartner,
we, um, I was doing strategy
consulting work for some
of the biggest brands, most
recognizable technology
brands in the world, like
the big ones you see in the
h- well, maybe not today
because at that time, ha-ha,
there was no OpenAI, and this
was, this was a while ago.
Um, but still some
of the biggest, most
notorious tech brands,
right, were my clients.
And, when you're f-
completing a consulting job,
um, and this is very common
at all of the like Bain,
McKinsey, Gartner, right?
Like think of like the,
the Big Four, like all
those big consulting firms.
When you're completing a
project, very often when
you're working with some
of these big companies, of
course, like you're helping
them, uh, take their existing
solutions, doing market
research, building market
models, and building, you
know, customer journey maps,
and doing intelligence, and
building a strategy for them
to win more in the market.
So very often, they don't
want anyone to know what
they're doing or what
they're going to be doing.
So if we wanted to try to go
get more work like that, as
we want, we want obviously
more clients, we wanna do
some of the same projects
but with other companies,
we wanna be able to talk
about the work that we did.
The problem is most of these
companies, they don't want
us talking about the work
that I did on this other
project with this other,
you know… Think of like
the-- I'm just gonna say the
most profitable, biggest,
most valuable technology
company in the world.
I'm not gonna say who it is.
You can look it up and
figure out yourself.
But, um, that was one
of my clients, and it
was a cool project.
We had a c- it was such a
cool project that we did.
It was a several month-long
project and They loved it so
much, the client loved it so
much that we wanted to like
turn it into like a repeatable
framework and then sell it
you know, sell our work to
other companies and do s- do
the same project again for
other big, big tech brands.
And we couldn't talk about
who the company was but that
didn't stop us from talking
about the work that we did.
That didn't stop us
from talking about our
expertise that we could
bring to the table.
So I'm gonna bring this
back to Dusted now.
The way that you solve this
problem in the consulting
world is you still tell the
case study, you still talk
about the work that you did,
you just anonymize the client.
So I did the same
thing for Dusted.
I built out, like anonymize
this case study as a feature.
So it's literally a button.
All you have to do
is press a button.
After you have a case study
drafted, whether you uploaded
documents or you used the
Ranger interview tool, or you
wrote it from scratch, you
can just hit the anonymize
button, and it will anonymize
the company for you so
that you can still own and
talk about your expertise.
You can still preserve the,
the problem-solving and the
thinking and the decisions
that you made and the
lessons that you learned.
Like that still
belongs to you.
You still get to talk about
that I don't want marketers
to feel like they don't get
to talk about their work
because of their obligations
to an- another employer.
Like but, but, you
know, don't… I'm not
telling you to, you know,
disclose company secrets.
Don't do that.
Don't put that on Dusted.
Don't put that anywhere.
Please respect your NDA,
you know, policies or
agreements that you signed.
But like the expertise
and the thinking and the
decision-making, that's yours.
That doesn't belong
to anyone else.
Um, so I've tried as much
as I can to build that into
Dusted to allow marketers to
still own that and still talk
about the, their expertise
so that they can talk about
their work, but not, not
the company that it was for
I really love your mindfulness
of allowing someone to
continue to talk about their
career and their expertise
and everything that they've
accomplished and their case
studies and their projects,
everything that they've done
towards their career, whilst
also simultaneously respecting
their employer at the exact
same time by anonymizing that.
Because there's going to
be at least one person
who's listening who will
actually feel stifled.
There's-- it's a mix
of like they will
just stop themselves.
They will create arbitrary
rules that are happening, and
one thing that I love to teach
is play the corporate game.
Like if you're not playing
the game, you're not going
to succeed in your career.
And this is one of
the things which is
like playing the game.
It's, it's making sure
that no one stops your
career moving forwards.
And I love the concept of
you're respecting the NDAs,
the employer policies,
your organizations that
you've worked at, whether
as a consultant or an
employee, but equally you're
showcasing your expertise
in the meantime and not
allowing anyone to stop you.
this isn't about selling
yourself, it's just about
marketing you in some ways,
but without-- whilst playing
the game and also being
nice to your employers, but
nice to yourself as well.
And I think, El, not a lot
of marketers are nice to
themselves or their career.
They don't, they don't
value themselves enough.
I love that thinking.
Yes, um, it should be
like second nature.
Like, I'm gonna put
this on, um, you know,
part of my portfolio.
Everything should- you
should always be thinking
about protecting your
leverage, and that includes
putting it in your portfolio
Definitely.
So once you've started
putting this work into your
portfolio, into the world,
what actually changes?
What's the value beyond
simply having a record of it?
Yes.
so I think there's so
much goodness here.
and I wanna take a step
back, and I will come back
to the question, I promise.
But I want you and,
and listeners out there
to think about, well,
what inspires you?
What are your go-to
newsletters, your,
you know, podcasts?
And maybe it's this one,
and if it is, I'm very
grateful and honored.
but where do you go to get
inspiration for your work?
You usually go
to someone else.
You're seeking out
someone else's expertise.
So someone else has
that expertise, and you
love to experience it.
And now I wanna flip
that around for a minute.
What I love about Dusted
is that you get to be that
expertise for someone else.
Other people, your peers, get
to experience your expertise,
and it's your expertise
that gets you opportunities.
So why wouldn't you
want as many people as
possible to experience it?
Of course you would.
So when I think about this,
I think of, like, bringing,
like, your, um-- Well, I ma- I
made the comment around, like,
bringing you opportunities.
What I mean by that is that's
why your former coworkers
refer you and why they hire
you again and why, you know,
they recommend you and they
bring you opportunities,
because they experience
your expertise, and they
know what you're good at.
So historically, maybe across
your career, you'll have,
I'll say, hundreds of people
across, again, across your
entire career who might
experience your expertise.
What if it was thousands
who could experience it
without ever working hand
in hand besides you but
learning from you via
your content on Dusted?
That's pretty cool
to think about.
That gets me really excited.
Oh, that gets me so excited.
The fact that your career
funnel is basically expanded
through leverage exponentially
because Dusted expands the
number of people who can
experience how you think.
Because fundamentally why
I tell my co- my clients
this all the freaking time,
the, the premise of why
your ex-colleagues refer
you or internally refer you
or bring you along, drag
you to new organizations,
because here's the thing I
think a lot of people don't
realize is if you work with
extremely switched on people,
they will typically go more
and more senior and they'll
want to pull you with them.
Now, what if instead of
having those people one-on-one
who have experienced your
expertise, experienced how
you think, and therefore
they're like, "I need you
in this role," other people
that you don't directly
work with actually get
to experience that too.
So it's not just the pool of
people that you work with,
which as you mentioned,
could be a couple hundred
across your entire career
versus the thousands, if not
the hundreds of thousands
in the wider market who
might find out about you.
I think that's like the
leverage pool is like small
to many, many, many, and
they don't even have to work
with you directly in order
to experience you So good.
So marketers have
had portfolios for a
long time, whether it
be in the accordion,
whether it be a website.
What's, what's different about
putting that work into Dusted?
Yeah, yeah.
So I know we're kind of like
piggybacking off of like that,
conversation we just had.
Um, but I wanna talk for a
minute about a professional
portfolio versus like
the network, right?
So uh, your personal
portfolio is basically a
collection of artifacts.
You know, when I pull out
my accordion portfolio,
I had like, you know, a
brochure that I created
for a conference or an
event or trade show.
That's an artifact.
Or on Dusted, maybe it's
a case study that you, you
know, wrote about something,
a project that you led.
That becomes an artifact.
So what I've done on Dusted
is that it's your artifact
plus a network of peers.
And I want listeners
to think about this.
How much more valuable is
your portfolio when it's
validated by your peers?
now think about it from
another perspective.
Think about academia.
In academia, when, you know,
PhD students are, you know,
going through their education
and there are some things they
have to do throughout their
schooling is they have to
publish, get papers published
in peer-reviewed journals.
Peer-reviewed journals.
And the reason for that
is because validation.
Their peers who understand
the market and understand
the field looked at their
work and said, "Yes, this
is good work." So what if I
brought that to Dusted, right?
Like, that's kind of what
I was thinking with this.
So that peer validation plus
like your discoverability
plus like the knowledge
network, it's, it's
incredibly valuable, and
that's something that I
wanted marketers to have.
So eventually, what I
would love Dusted to
become is a marketplace
for value and expertise.
My, like my big vision,
my big dream for Dusted is
for marketers to be able
to leverage their expertise
in every possible way,
whether it's, uh, creating
a peer-validated portfolio
or even like starting to
monetize it beyond when a
company decides to employ you
Oh, that's really cool.
That's very exciting
'cause any different side
income that can come in or
peer-validated ways that you
can expand your network is
very, very, very good for
your career and very good in
terms of your salary as well
and your earning potential.
So I get the sense that case
studies are really the entry
point and not the end product.
So what, in your opinion,
should the end product
be for a marketer?
yeah.
So it's hard for me to
imagine the, the end product
because I think the more--
the deeper that I get into
this, the more ideas that
I have around what else I
could do with this platform
and what other value I could
give back to marketers.
So I'm continuously
excited about, this, like,
never-ending opportunity
that I have with the value
I could deliver with Dusted.
So that's just a fact
that I'm… You know,
gets me up every day.
But, when I think about
these case studies, uh, the
first thing that I wanna
say is that, like, a problem
shared is a problem halved.
And what I mean by that
is when I'm up against a
challenge and I overcome
that challenge, and then I
document it and I share it,
I'm making it easier for the
marketers who are coming after
me to learn from that and to
go a little bit further, and
then they'll hit a challenge,
and they'll overcome it,
and then they will teach the
marketers behind them, right?
So I'm making it easier for
the marketers behind me,
they're making it easier for
the marketers behind them,
and so on and so forth.
Now, that aside for a minute,
that's where kind of like
the knowledge share and
the goodness comes from.
But when I start to get
into, like, the next phase
or not the e- you know, the
end game for Dusted, I'm
thinking about like, "Okay,
how can I help marketers
leverage this expertise
and this, like, knowledge
network and knowledge
share?" For a monetary value.
What can I do for marketers?
So today on Dusted,
you can capture your
expertise, you can prove
your expertise, right?
You can validate
it with your peers.
But in the future, my
vision is to create a
marketplace of expertise.
So let me give you an example.
Let's say that, you know, I
was looking on Dusted for,
or, or a vendor or a tool
or something around like,
you know, product launches.
And I'm making this up.
All of this is not, you
know, this is all fictitious.
But let's say, you know, you
have a case study that you
wrote, and you talked about
like, "Yeah, here's this
product launch that I did.
It was so successful.
Like here's how I did it.
Like here are my stakeholders.
Like here are the
frameworks that I used.
here are all the tools,
the vendors, the software
solutions that I used," like
basically your tech stack,
and so on and so forth.
And then I learn from that,
and you get validation for
that, for me like learning.
You, you get the met- it's
a, it's a metric, something
that we track on Dusted.
You know that I looked at it.
and then we also, Dusted
also has a feature called
Playbooks, and at the
end of every case study
there's a like generate a
playbook s- call to action.
So if I click that, Dusted
knows that I clicked that.
But Dusted will create a,
unique and personalized
playbook for me that's based
off of your case study,
but also the rest of the
case studies on Dusted.
So it will give me a playbook
that I will then go, then I
can go and execute later on.
Now all of this comes back
to you because now you start
to get a sense of not only
who you're learning from
from other case studies that
you're looking and reading,
but also who's learning from
you, and all of this comes
back to that validation piece.
Now we're gonna come back
to this like playbooks
and validation piece.
But where I start to see
this like getting monetized
is that that case study that
you mentioned, uh, the, where
you mentioned your like tech
stack and the vendors, the
f- if a vendor sees that
and is l- and says, "Hey,
this is really good stuff,
um, I wanna license that."
So maybe they, whether that's
working with just your case
study, working with you
w- in whatever capacity,
there's lots of ways that,
that we're experimenting
with this for Dusted.
But it's a way for a
vendor to basically license
your expertise, and thus
your expertise becomes
your monetary asset.
You get paid for that.
You collect a royalty on that
expertise that that vendor
is licensing, whether that's
in the form of a case study
you wrote or something else.
So not only are you, like,
bearing fruit for the rest
of the marketing community
to enjoy, but you are also
planting more seeds for
yourself, too, and that
is my end game for Dusted
That is fire.
Like ge- genuinely,
that is insane.
The, the fact that not only
I, I love that concept of like
you can create a customized
playbook from someone else's
case study, but also you
can basically turn your
experience and assets into a
monetary asset it's insane.
It's, it's so good.
So there's a really
interesting tension
here because there
are marketers who are
notoriously uncomfortable
marketing themselves.
Like it, like there's going
to be someone right now,
a, a listener right now who
probably has imposter syndrome
around marketing themselves.
What would you recommend
to that person?
Yes.
Yes.
I think of my own discomfort
with self-promotion.
but I try to put
myself in the, like,
player/coach analogy.
And rather than looking
at it from, " Oh, look how
impressive I am," like that,
that shouldn't be… No one
is thinking that. no one looks
at their coach when they, the,
when their coach, like, gives
them a strategy or a play
or something, you don't look
at the coach and being like,
"Who do you think you are?
Who do you think you
are telling me what to
do?" You don't say that.
By the way, like, most
NFL coaches didn't
play in the NFL.
You know what I mean?
Like, you don't… Yet,
they're still the ones,
like, calling the shots.
So it's not about, like,
"Look how impressive I am,"
like he… It's, it's more
about, like, "Here's something
I learned, and I'm gonna
share it with you so that
because it might help you."
So I think there's that,
that difference between
you're d- not doing this
to feed your ego, you're
doing it to help your peers.
And, again, like I'm gonna
call back to even like in
grade school, like we don't
call teachers who are sharing
useful information bragging.
You know, someone who's
teaching you and trying
to help you, we don't
say that that's bragging.
We say that it's helpful.
It's helpful guidance.
and th- the other thing
that I'll say that, like,
when your employer hires
you for your expertise,
it's worthy of a paycheck.
So I think if it's worthy of
a paycheck, then it's worthy
to be shared with your peers.
So in that way, in my
opinion, becomes less
transactional and it's more
intrinsically, it becomes
more intrinsically motivated.
I bet there's … I don't
have it h- hand in hand,
but I will follow up with
this, like, after, after
we publish this episode.
I bet there is research out
there that shows that when you
help other people, that it,
that it activates, um, other
parts of your good feelings
in your body and your brain.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna follow
up with that research 'cause I
feel like I read it somewhere.
but ultimately I think, you
know, Dusted was intentionally
structured around contributing
something useful, right?
Like earlier on in our
conversation I mentioned,
like, you can give someone
a Toasty Marshmallow patch.
All of that is built
to, like, encourage
sharing something useful.
You can also, we have
a- another patch that's
called a Rare Gem.
So if I like, Hattie, if
I read your case study and
I'm like, "Oh my gosh," like
I, "This is so creative.
It's so unique.
I haven't seen anything
like this," I can also
give you a Rare Gem.
The, the platform
doesn't decide that your
strategy was really good.
Other marketers do.
So it's a way that you can
also, if someone else has
influenced you or taught
you something, like, that's
something too that you can,
give back to them in a way.
I love that because I've,
I've generally had a lot
of coaches in the past and
people who have been way
more senior than I am, and
they have led the way and
they've showcased their
expertise and it, it didn't
feel like bragging whatsoever.
It just felt like I was
learning from someone
who's been there, done
that, got the T-shirt.
And I truly believe that
the most expensive place on
the planet is the cemetery,
because there are a lot
of people who go to their
deathbeds without sharing
all of their knowledge.
And I'm like, "Dude, if
you're retired or like,
you have to share it." I'm
like, "I'm a sponge." I'm
like, "Just tell me all your
wisdom, like, so I can save
the years and I can become
the person that I want to be
and become self-actualized
and hit my career goals."
Because otherwise, their
valuable expertise, these
people who are retired, it
literally disappears when
people leave and it's--
no one is capturing it.
Therefore, it, it, in my
mind, it reinforces that
documenting something
useful is not bragging.
They are not equal whatsoever.
They are not equal.
It is just a case of
like realizing that you
have something of value
because it comes from you.
Like I generally find that
even if I hear the same topic
of, you know, positioning
or messaging or go-to-market
from different people, it's
valuable because it comes
from them and their lived
experience, as you mentioned.
Right.
Exactly.
It's your expertise.
So the way that I do
something is gonna be
different from the way that
you do something because
our expertise is different
Exactly.
So good.
So you're, you're building
this pre, pre-public, to be
fair, Elle, in a pre-public,
pre-early way, so which
us marketers we're like,
"Hey," we tip our hats.
We definitely respect, right?
Building in public we're like,
"Hey, kudos." So what have
you learnt from the first few
hundred people joining Dusted?
Yeah.
So I know we s- you mentioned
earlier on that Dusted
is only two months old,
so that sounds very new,
but this idea wasn't new.
If I, and if I'm being honest,
this podcast was really
the experiment for Dusted
I had this idea such a
long time ago, and, as I
was growing in my own…
I'll make this quick 'cause
it's a little bit of a
tangent, but when I was
growing in my career, I found
myself constantly looking
for case studies to learn
from, case study examples of
marketing, and I couldn't.
They were really hard to find.
It was frustrating,
and then I just kinda
gave up and moved on.
Then, you know, I
got the experiences.
I grew in my career.
Became a, a, a leader, and
I became r- rather than
the player, well, I think
we're all players, you know,
for the rest of our lives.
We're all learning
forever, but, like,
rather than the player, I
became the coach, right?
And so I was teaching
and coaching others, and
I found that my style of
teaching would be showing
case study examples.
Be like, "Here's how I
did this in this job." And
there were times where I
hadn't done it before, so
I didn't know how to do it.
So then I thought to myself,
"Oh, you know who's really
good at this? My friend
Hattie. My friend Hattie's
really good at this." And but
this actually happened, right?
Like, we came across a,
when I was at Cisco, we came
across a time where I hadn't
done it before, so we called
someone in my network, and
we got the download, and
we, we ran his playbook.
Like, that's what we did, and
at the end of it, like, me and
this, this gal on my team, we
were like, "Why isn't this a
thing?" Like, why, why can't
this exist where anyone can
access a network of expertise
and learn from each other?
And so, you know,
fast-forward to the podcast.
I thought like, "Okay,
well, like, let me see if
other people want this."
So, I built the podcast
where in it every episode
is a case study example
of your work, and I wanted
to see, like, do people
like this kind of content?
And what I learned was that
when you, like, ask marketers
the right questions about
their expertise, then,
like, incredible information
and knowledge comes out.
So the ask part is
really important, right?
Like, that, and that's the
framework that, that DustEd
brings and, like, the training
that, like, of Ranger, the
AI model that interviews,
you know, the users, and
all of that is built on my
success with the podcast.
But if I'm s- thinking
specifically, you know,
you asked, like, what
have I learned from the
first few hundred people?
Like, I, the reason why I'm
mentioning the podcast is
because, like, the, I've
really been learning since I
started the podcast, right?
Around, like, what was that?
Like, April of
2025, I believe.
Yeah, April 2025 is when I
launched the podcast, and
within the first year I
was, Oh, it was approaching
1,000 downloads a month
on, across all of my
channels, and I was booked.
I'm now, I'm booked into 2027,
and I've been booked into
'27 for the last six months.
So clearly, I'm answering
both questions that I had
about this experiment.
Like yes, people
like this content.
Um, people like accessing,
like, expertise, and
then two, people like to
share their expertise.
So now fast-forward to
Dusted, across between when
I first started the wait
list for Dusted, so didn't
actually open it to the beta,
but across, like, the wait
list and the beta, again,
it's only two months old,
like I'm approaching like
500 people who expressed
interest in, like, GitHub
for marketers basically,
whi- which is what Dusted is.
And that's all purely
from word of mouth growth.
I don't have a Substack.
I don't have a newsletter.
I don't… This is the
first time I'm even talking
about it on the podcast.
So I don't have… This is
all through word of mouth.
Like, I don't have a
big, I don't have a big
fancy marketing budget.
So ultimately what I'm trying
to say is that I think Dusted
formalizes this behavior of,
like, knowledge sharing at
scale, and, and some of the
early feedback that I've been
getting from users of Dusted
is that they love the AI tool.
They loved the interview.
I've had multiple users,
power users on Dusted tell
me, "This tool helped me
think more critically about
my own work and expertise that
I otherwise would not have
thought of." And I loved that.
That was so validating,
and for me, it just,
like, fills my cup to know
that something that I'm
building is, is creating
value for somebody else
That's so good.
And I love the fact that
you're giving marketers
the ability to think more
critically and also to use
your AI feature in order to
do that, because I generally
believe the quality of your
thinking creates the quality
of your life and your career.
So I think that's amazing
because here's the thing,
the best time to plant
a tree was yesterday.
The second best time is now.
Now is the best time
to jump in and do it
so true, especially with
the age of AI, with how
fast everything is moving.
Like, things happen like that.
Like, companies go up and
they go down, you know?
Like, it, it, things
happen very quickly
It's so true.
And I feel like, and I
say this to my clients all
the freaking time, if you
are not taking your career
seriously right now, then
I don't know where you're
going to be in a year's time.
I'm like, "You're going to be
in a worse place in a year's
time," because of the speed
at which we are transforming
our tech industry, our
careers, how valued we
are, and this is just the
best time to now really be
intentional with your career.
So is it incredible that
you've had like over 500
people sign up, and this
is the first time you've
ever spoken about it.
So I think it, that, that is
a testament to you 'cause hey,
I thought you had millions in
the bank, Elle, that you could
just throw into marketing
like these big tech companies.
But, uh,
No,
may- uh, one day.
One day.
One day.
Fingers
Let's go.
Yeah, fingers crossed.
One day.
Let's go.
Okay, so the podcast is
obviously very connected to
all of this, which even I
didn't know, which is amazing.
I think it's such a smart
way of validating this.
So did what you've learned
through interviewing marketers
influence how you think
about what you are building?
Yes, and I kind of like had a
little head nod to this just,
just a minute ago, right?
Like, so like when guests
are arriving to an interview
with me for the po- for a
podcast episode, like they
think that they're just
telling me about a project
that they, that they did.
And ultimately, like what we
learn is that like through
this asking questions and
digging deeper and digging
deeper, deeper, like there's
incredible judgment and
lessons and expertise that,
that comes out of this.
And because it is so deep,
that's o- often why for
when I do, when I record
a podcast episode, I do a
prep call, and at the end
of the prep call, the guest
is usually, usually says
something like, "Oh, wow, I
really like this style. Like,
this really helps me think
really critically about this."
they've just never formally
documented it like that.
It always ends up getting
squeezed in some eight-word
bullet point on a resume.
And it's crazy to me that
somehow this incredible
expertise that's so
rich and so useful gets
condensed like that.
So what I'm excited
about is how Dusted kind
of gives that expertise
somewhere permanent to live.
And, and this is also
a callback to like the
LinkedIn comment, right?
'Cause like you can post
something on LinkedIn, and
it's like, yeah, you can
like feature a post on your,
on your profile, but that
post, it lives and it dies,
and that life is only like
maybe two… It might circle
back in two weeks, you know?
But, but on Dusted, it lives
forever, and it is forever
part of your expertise.
again, like I think that's,
um, all of this is something
that my early, early power
users, they see it, they
get it, and the feedback
that I'm getting from them
is, is, is very positive.
I'm, I'm getting some
stuff that I need to
improve on, which, which
we're improving on it.
But, but the feedback
overall has been
tremendously positive.
I love that.
And I remember that there was
a time, Elle, when a PMM DM'd
me on LinkedIn and they were
like, "There was this post
that you wrote about sales
enablement and it was around
how you showcase the data.
Can-- I can't find it.
Can you find it for me?"
I'm like, "Yeah, give
me two seconds." Elle,
I could not find it.
I went searching
through LinkedIn.
I was searching all the
keywords and I was like,
"Where the frick was
that post?" It literally,
like, disappeared.
I was like, "Okay, do I
have to literally go back?"
Because I post once a day
for literally years in a,
like, years in a row and I'm
like, "I cannot find it."
But in dusted, it was so easy
to search for case studies
with specific keywords.
The searching feature in
LinkedIn, I was like, I-- If
you read it, it's literally
gone the next second.
There's been many times
where I'm on the feed and
I'm like reading something,
then the feed auto-refreshes.
I'm like, "Okay, I have
lost that forever. That's
great." So yeah, I just…
It's
just
know.
I hate it when that
happens, but it's so true.
Yeah, it's so
so
walk me through if I am a
Dusted user and I, I've just
joined right now, what is the
first thing that I should do?
Yes.
Okay, the first thing
you should do is to, um,
probably just look around
a little bit honestly.
That's a trend that I've
been hearing from my,
from the power users.
They're like, "Yeah, like I
log on, and then the first
thing I did was I logged
on, and I kinda like looked
at what other people were
posting, and I spent a
few minutes doing that."
But the actual action
that I take is to
publish a case study.
That's, that's the first
thing that you should, uh,
the first bi-bi-big action
that you should take on Dusted
is publish a case study.
And I, um, I think I mentioned
this in our conversation
already, but I tried to
make this as like easy and
straightforward as possible.
You can just upload a
document to get started,
and that you can use the
InterviewMe tool, you can
use the MCP, you can of
course write it from scratch.
Using some of these tools
so that, um, to lower
the barrier, to lower the
hurdle for you to publish
a case study, I'm hearing
from our power users that
it's taking anywhere from
like five to 12 minutes
to publish a case study,
which is incredibly fast.
Like it's… That's, that's
really fast when you start
to think about like how
much time you probably
spend like putting something
together for a portfolio.
Um, so I think do one, maybe
two, and then come back
and do a little bit more.
And w- this is just a
personal practice that
I have, doing some like
journaling, meditation,
thinking, like helps you
come, come with a clear mind
so that you, um, you know,
do your best work and do
it on Dusted too, because
that will just reflect back
on you and your expertise.
So good.
And I would presume if
I'm joining right now,
I'm probably going to
have my credit card out.
Where, where would
I put that in?
Like, are we talking-- If
you're going to help me, you
know, in my career and I'm
earning six figures, I would
presume I'm paying like 100,
200, maybe 300 bucks a month.
Is-- Like, where do I put
in the credit card details?
So Dusted is free.
way
Dusted will, always be free.
and that's my, that's
my intention anyway.
It is very important to me
that I don't take a dollar
from hardworking marketers,
especially, I mean, there's
lots of, lots of our users
on Dusted are, are currently
employed, and they're using
it to create, establish
that career memory and
portfolio and get validation.
We have a lot of users
on Dusted who are
looking for a job.
Maybe they were
recently laid off.
That's really good.
I love that.
I love the, the care
that went into you making
this free for marketers.
That's really beautiful.
Especially in the landscape
of AI really knocking
people's careers and
layoffs and everything.
So yeah, it's crazy.
So we can't have this
conversation without talking
about AI for, for a minute.
If AI can help us write, build
portfolios, and even tell us
how to approach our marketing
problem, what's the strategy
of building a career alongside
these market changes?
That is such a good question.
I've, I feel like I have
a lot to say about this.
I'm gonna start with a, a,
a story Do you remember in
grade school when, like,
when you had projects, like,
you had to make posters?
I don't know if kids have to
make post- my kids are little,
so I don't know if kids have
to make posters anymore.
But we had to make
poster boards, right?
Like, if you had to do,
like, a biography on someone
from the past, you had to
create a poster board about
it and give a presentation
in front of the class or,
you know, what have you.
There was … I had a friend.
she always had the most
polished poster projects.
I mean, she had, like,
pictures, and each picture
had a picture frame, and
she had glitter glue.
Like, but it wasn't,
like, sloppy.
Like, it looked really neat.
It was very neatly put
together and very polished.
But she would always,
I mean, not always.
I- there were a couple times
where she would, like, she
would get, like, a B-minus.
Like, she didn't get the A. So
what I learned later, looking
back on kind of thinking
about her, her polish, was
that it lacked depth So now
I'm gonna like, I'm gonna
jump forward a little bit,
and I'm thinking of like me
as a hiring manager, right?
There are a few like angles.
We've talked a lot about
how like there are these
big hiring pools now because
of AI, and everybody has
their polished project.
Everybody has one.
And as a hiring manager,
I'm looking at like hundreds
of these, thousands even
potentially, for every
job that I have open.
And doing that context
switching, like everybody's
little polished project
looks different.
Maybe some have glitter glue,
maybe because of AI, like some
have glitter glue and some
have really cool stickers,
and then some they're
like oriented this way.
And that context switching
at high volume is
incredibly difficult.
It's incredibly difficult.
And so I think like hiring
managers just end up
getting exhausted from that
constant context switching.
Now I'm gonna switch over to
like AI and that influence
on like the candidate side.
So AI can make your, you
know, polished output
easy to create, right?
But it's still time-consuming
to design it, maybe less
time with AI, but you still
have to spend time, you still
have to put in the effort.
and then everybody's creating
portfolios, but like,
again, it's still like the
major context switching.
And now imagine reviewing
like, um, put yourself in
the hiring manager's shoes.
Imagine even looking at 30
different websites in just
in one sitting as you're like
looking through candidates.
And you're trying to sift
through them, and you're like
trying to see like, "Okay,
well, what's the so what?
What's the impact?
How is this candidate gonna
be a good fit?" And it's just,
it's, it gets exhausting.
So I think back to my
little friend from grade
school who had like the
polished projects, right?
And I think what she was
missing was the depth.
And for us, for marketers,
um, what we may be missing
is maybe we have the
depth, may- maybe it's
there, maybe it's not.
That's very, you know,
it just depends on from
portfolio to portfolio.
But what we don't have
is like the credibility.
So some are lacking depth.
That's the context, right?
The context around why
your work matters, what
you did, that how did it
create value and impact.
And, um, turning it around
in terms of like the context
that the hiring manager
would need to understand
what your true expertise is.
So I think the answer to all
of this is that like to use
something that's slightly
more standardized and like
signals to the hiring manager
what's the problem that
you solved, what was the
thinking behind it, what
was the peer validate- what
peer validation do you have?
Like ultimately, this becomes
proof of your expertise
So finally, Elle, why?
Why are you building this?
What's the personal conviction
behind you wanting to really
help marketers elevate their
career, showcase everything
that they've done, make sure
that they've strengthened
their career, but why?
Why, why does this
matter so much to you?
that's a good question.
I think when I, in my
heart of hearts, like
I'm a cheerleader.
I'm such a natural
cheerleader.
Um, that's my enthusiasm
that I mentioned earlier.
I think that's my innate,
abilities, my superpower,
and I've even had multiple
managers tell me that.
I had a CMO tell me
that at one of the
startups I worked at.
I had, in my very, very,
very first marketing job in
college, I had my, my manager
tell me that, and I have this
inc- that I'm literally like,
"You're like the cheerleader
for the team. You're like
the cheerleader for the
company." But I think they
were saying that I had this
like really strong enthusiasm.
And if I try to like channel
that into something that I'm
trying to create value and,
and help others with, truly
nothing makes me happier than
seeing other people thrive
in their careers as a result
of support that I gave them.
Like it fills my cup to be
the bridge between someone
else's like expertise
and, value that they were
able to create and seize.
Like, and it's such
an honor, frankly, to
be in that position.
So that is kind of my big
personal conviction and you
know, why I'm building this.
I love that.
And you're normally the one
asking this question, so
now I get to ask it to you.
Who are you thinking of
for your gratitude moment?
Yes.
I try to create, like we
talked earlier about carving
habits, so I think I've
created a, try to create a
habit of gratitude, and I'm
constantly thinking and being
thankful for people who are
placed in my life at the
right time, um, even really
small and short engagements.
So, um, I try to think about
have a gratitude moment daily
and multiple times a day.
But specifically for this
h- podcast, definitely,
um, you, Hattie, because
you have been such a
great partner in helping
me think through Dusted
from the very beginning.
You were one of the very
early people that I shared
the idea with and have been
instrumental in helping me
think through, you know,
positioning and, and narrative
and, and everything, and I
can just totally picture you
as, you know, I'm thinking
of us, like, on a mountain,
you know, and I'm like, "I'm
getting tired and I'm slowing
down," and I'm like, "Oh,
Hattie, I need a break,"
and you're like, "Take my
hand," and you point to
the top of the mountain and
you're like, "Let's go!"
You know, like, so encouraging
and, and such a, you know,
being a guide i- is, and a
coach is so natural to you,
so I'm grateful for that.
Um, and then of course the,
like, nearly, you know, 500
people who have expressed
interest and raised their
hand about Dusted, and, uh,
definitely the power users
who are taking time out of
their, like, super busy day
to give me feedback so I
can keep building something
that's valuable to marketers.
and then finally, this
is, like, an- a another
very specific person.
I've had so many mentors, um,
in my career, and I, I don't
know, I could do an entire
podcast episode about, like,
all of the mentors, probably
one episode for each mentor
because they all so have had
such a big impact on my life.
But there's one person that
I really wanna call out for
the gratitude moment because
she is the inspiration
for the gratitude moment
segment on the podcast.
Um, her name is
Pallavi Vannacharla.
She was the, my first manager
at Twilio, and she, I still
think to this day, she is
hands down the best marketing
leader on the planet.
Like, she's intelligent and
strategic and creative and,
and she has r- a very, very
high bar for excellence.
Um, but more than that, she's
a kind and empathetic human,
and if I'm being honest, like,
she's made me the marketer
that I am today, because
of that's just who she is.
Um, and the gratitude moment,
the reason why it's inspired
by her is because when we
were, when I was on her
team, in every team meeting,
we had a gratitude moment.
And it was so transformative,
and it became so much a
part of how I, you know,
look at the world and look
at my career that I had to
make it part of the podcast.
That's beautiful.
And my last question for you
is, what's one thing someone
listening can do tomorrow to
start building proof of their
career and their expertise?
Yes.
Check out Dusted, create
an account, and publish,
publish just one case study
and see where it takes you
Let's go.
That's Dusted, D-U-S-T-E-D.io.
Join Dusted, it is free as El
mentioned, and I want to thank
you, El, for everything that
you've given to the marketing
community, everything that
you've done for us, and I
know that this is a labor
of love and you're really
building something that is
of genuine help, genuine
value to a pr- a marketer,
a product marketer's career.
Marketing in general,
whether you're across
brand, content, any form of
marketing, this is for you.
Because as a coach, I'm seeing
the world, and my goodness, we
need to move with the times.
So create an account
now on dusted.io.
Document your expertise.
You are worth prioritizing.
Your expertise is
worthy of your time.
Your future will
thank you for it.
So once again, thank you
El for being in the hot
seat, and this has been
an absolute pleasure