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Ohio's public schools serve 1.6 million children - 90 percent of students in the state! What happens in the classroom has impacts far beyond the walls of the K-12 school building or higher ed lecture hall. So, on behalf of the 120,000 members of the Ohio Education Association, we're taking a deeper dive into some of the many education issues facing our students, educators, and communities. Originally launched in 2021 as Education Matters, Public Education Matters is your source for insightful conversations with the people who shape the education landscape in Ohio. Have a topic you'd like to hear about on Public Education Matters? Email us at educationmatters@ohea.org
Intro - Various members and students speaking 0:08
Public Education Matters. Public Education Matters. Public Education Matters because every student matters. Public Education Matters. Public Education Matters because it is the foundation of our democracy. Public Education Matters because we are stronger when we speak in one voice. Public Education Matters. Public Education Matters. Public Education Matters. Public Education Matters. This is public Education Matters, brought to you by the Ohio Education Association.
Katie Olmsted 0:41
Thanks for joining us for this episode of Public Education Matters. I'm Katie Olmsted, and I'm part of the communications team for the Ohio Education Association and the nearly 120,000 public school educators OEA represents across the state. Ohio's public schools serve 1.6 million students from all communities and all walks of life. And OEA is really committed to working to make Ohio's public education workforce as beautifully diverse as the students our educators serve. But diversity isn't just skin color or ethnic background; it's gender, sexual orientation, ability, income level and so much more. And one Columbus educator is sharing her experiences and perspectives to help better support neurodiverse students and neurodiverse educators, just like her. Lindsay Rice is writing a book called When That Kid Becomes the Teacher, because that is her story. She was that student. And now she is the teacher in a third grade classroom at Ohio Avenue Elementary School in Columbus, where she's using the positive aspects of having a neurodivergent mind to help her neurodiverse and neurotypical students alike. Everything from simply understanding some of the challenges and superpowers different students bring to the table, to giving her students journals with a letter from her in the front, reminding them have all the reasons why they're important to her to help them regulate their rejection sensitivity dysphoria, especially when she's caused it. We'll get more into exactly what rejection sensitivity dysphoria is and so much more, and how all of this can affect neurodiverse learners, in our conversation with Lindsey. But I do want to apologize right now for my voice in this interview. I was battling a cold, I'm still battling a cold, I can't seem to kick this one. In any case, here's our conversation.
Katie Olmsted 2:42
Lindsay Rice, thank you so much for sitting down with us to share your thoughts. How exciting that you are in the process of writing a book and trying to get it published. What can you tell me about it?
Lindsay Rice 2:54
So, it's entitled "When That Kid Becomes the Teacher." And it's the journey of how basically, I was kind of a sore spot on the roster when the teachers got it, because of the amount of energy and lack of focus that I had as a young kid. And so I'm hoping that by sharing some of the experiences of someone that is now a professional, that it'll help neurotypical educators and parents kind of tried to understand some of the reasons why neurodivergent children do some of the things that they do.
Katie Olmsted 3:46
Now, Lindsey talking to you earlier, it sounded like school was kind of traumatic for you, you've definitely had some traumatic experiences in there. If you feel comfortable sharing that, I'd love to really shine a light on that. But also, more importantly, why after that trauma, would you want to be a teacher?
Lindsay Rice 4:05
That was an excellent question. And originally, I did not. So in kindergarten, I used to spend a lot of time rocking back and forth in my chair, which now I understand was me stimming, because prior to that, I was never required to stay seated for long amounts of time, which is something that a lot of our neurodivergent kids struggle with - even adults. I mean, I was sitting in a PD today, and I wasn't sure if like my leg was about to like, tap the table over. So it's not exactly something you get rid of either. But my teacher decided that she was going to tie me to the chair and the chair to the desk. So that was very traumatic, especially in the 90s when little girls didn't have ADHD. That was more of a boy diagnosis. But I was lucky that both my parents are in the medical field and were able to get me diagnosed with ADHD and start on medication. But at that point, the trauma had kind of already ensued. And but I actually went to school, my Bachelor's is in Speech and Language Pathology. But again, a lot of those neurodivergent pieces of myself, even though I understood the material, and I could articulate and conversate about it, it didn't reflect that in multiple choice questions. Because a lot of neurodivergent people, they overthink, or they would rather just explain to you the information, and have a hard time memorizing facts that are not useful, if that makes sense.
Katie Olmsted 5:53
And so I mean, let's be real about a lot of the things we learn in school, sometimes it doesn't feel like useful information. So you kind of just jettison it. That's, that's at least me.
Lindsay Rice 6:04
Yes! And so anyways, whether it was divine intervention, or the world speaking to me at or whatever anybody believes I ended up deciding to get my Master's in Childhood Ed. Um, and something I swore I was not going to become, a teacher. And so, but I guess, if people that had bad experiences aren't in the classroom, then children that are currently having bad experiences will never have their side of the story seen. There's a lot of research that the majority of educators are people who enjoyed their years in school. And I think that a lot of the reason that it's so important for kids to have teachers that kind of represent them - and it doesn't matter, like whether it's just a boy, whether it's race, whether it's neurodivergence - is because then you have a point of relation. And I would even argue that a lot of what makes it so amazing for kids to have a teacher that experienced a not like, ideal elementary or educational experience is that they can see past those shortcomings or whatever you want to call them of the "that kid" and find all of the positive aspects of them as well.
Katie Olmsted 7:53
So let's talk about the positive aspects of your neuro divergence. I know it must challenge learning, but like as a teacher, I think you'd bring a lot to the table with this.
Lindsay Rice 8:05
Yeah, and I think my favorite part about being an neurodivergent teacher, especially in the schools that I have taught at, is that a lot of our neurodivergent children are actually twice exceptional, right. So we're gifted, and we can't focus, which is a dangerous combination. Because when you're really really intelligent, but you lack skills, because of your inability to focus, then you get bored, but can't be successful, all in the same breath. And I feel like I have an ability to see some of the brilliance that my neurotypical coworkers might look past, unless it's pointed out.
Katie Olmsted 8:58
Do you bring something to your style as an educator where you can turn or at least help guide some of the the negative things, the things that are challenging about neurodivergence into positive avenues for the students you're serving?
Lindsay Rice 9:16
So one of the most important things I think I do in my classroom, and this is a newer revelation of neuro divergence, but it was something so it's called rejection sensitivity dysphoria. It's a newer kind of topic in the neurodivergent community, but when I read about it and learn more about it, I felt so seen and understood a lot of my own behaviors a lot better. And I actually had an amazing scholar that I spent two years with because I looped with them that was just so amazing at telling me how he felt, like he was just very real. And one time I hadn't called on him and he started being, like kind of mean, and so I sat him down and I was like, Hey, dude, like, what's going on? He's like, You didn't call on me. And it made me feel sad. And I wanted you to feel sad to it, I was like, oh, like I, I relate to that. I get that. And so one of the things that a lot of our neurodivergent scholars are experiencing is rejection, even when the adult or the peer isn't intending it. And so one of the things that I've implemented in my classroom is a journal, where my students are free to write everything. Um, the only caveat is that they have to write down their thought, before they can communicate about it. And it's a strategy that I use for myself, I don't do it in a journal, I do it in email, and then send the email to a trusted friend, um, and wait for their response. But usually, by the time they do respond, I've already been able to get out of what my, what I talk to my students about as the caveman brain. Yeah, so the caveman brain is such a is a powerful tool to teach the students about, because although they're taking ownership of what has happened, it also kind of disconnects like the blame, not the blame, but you're not a bad kid, right? But you're allowing this section of your brain to be activated by not taking those deep breaths. And that section only has three choices: fight, flight, or freeze. And none of those are good for school. And so they're able to write out what's making them upset, and there's questions for them to help work through it. And sometimes they'll just write really mean things in there. But they'll get like, they'll get verbal praise for, Hey, you know, thanks for writing that in there and not yelling it at me. Thank you. And it allows, I just, it's the most beneficial thing I've ever done in my classroom.
Katie Olmsted 12:17
But, and that really brings up an important part of this whole conversation to me: how much things have changed since you were a kindergartener, you know, in the 90s, and I don't think a lot of people really understood it, like you said, they assumed it was, you know, hyperactive boys, and you can medicate it, and that would be it. Every problem has ever, ever that came with neurodivergence is solved. And now I think there's just a lot more openness about discussing it. I think there's more - I mean, even just recognizing the terminology and seeing yourself in this, but also really helping everyone, children and adults alike, have have new skills that they can work on, rather than just making you feel like "that kid."
Lindsay Rice 13:04
Right. And I actually have three of my own children that are also all twice exceptional, ADHD and gifted. And it's been, so a lot of the book that I'm working on talks about kind of like, what it's like to kind of see the parent aspect of raising yourself. But I think that a lot of times, that outsiders to the parenting situation, don't really understand. And I feel blessed that I kind of knew what I was getting into, you know, because I am ADHD. But sometimes I think about my mom and think, Wow, I can't imagine having raised my first daughter without knowing what was going on. Like, until five years old. Why is, why can't I keep her out of anything? Why? So like, there was a time and I write about it, that I was probably I think I was like two, right? And my mom being a good mom. I had been sick with pneumonia and she had given me Tylenol. And so like a normal parent, she locked the Tylenol bottle with the kid proof cap and put it back in the medicine cabinet. Right. So any person would think that that would be safe from a two year old. But people that are neurodivergent have hyperfocuses where they can't let a thought go. So my two year old little brain must have hyper fixated on wanting more of that children's Tylenol, and I was able to climb up into the medicine cabinet, open the childproof cap and eat the rest of the Tylenol.
Katie Olmsted 14:53
Oh my goodness.
Lindsay Rice 14:55
I know and so to an outsider, they might think that my mom had it like taken the correct steps when in complete reality she did. However, when you have a kid with low impulse control and high intelligence, like you, you can't predict these things. And other people are so judgmental, so now you're trying to deal with, you know, keeping your small child alive, without being mean, and balancing all of the onlookers with their side eyes.
Katie Olmsted 15:32
Well, and then a certain part of you has to know that some of those side eyes are coming from your child's teacher who may not appreciate the the twice exceptional student in their class the same way that maybe you do. What do you want all educators to understand about neurodivergent students in their classes?
Lindsay Rice 15:57
I want them to understand that most of them really just want to be successful. And because of that, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, a lot of times, even things that don't, like you might not think that you're kind of putting rejection out there that's what -- So kids with ADHD have an oversized amygdala, right? So our stress cycle is more likely to be activated than a neurotypical person. And just understanding that when a child responds with big feelings, it's not personal, right? And you can't punish those responses. I'm not, I'm not saying consequences aren't needed. Consequences are important too. But they're not going to work if you don't help build in the space, right, between the feeling and the action, because consequences work on the basis of being able to like weigh whether your action is worth doing, if you're gonna end up with the consequence. So kids with ADHD won't think about that last consequence until they've already done the next action. Does that make sense?
Katie Olmsted 17:22
It really does. I mean, for the sake of full disclosure here, there's a lot of ADD and ADHD in my family, and I'm feeling exceptionally seen in this conversation right now. But you know, what else there's a lot of in my family is educators. And I, for one, think that it is a really great thing for, for our students, as you mentioned, to see themselves in the people who are educating them. I think, you know, neurodivergence brings some superpowers to all the things that we do - creative problem solving enthusiasm, that hyper fixation can be really positive in many ways.
Lindsay Rice 18:02
Yeah, sometimes it's great, right? You can get a lot done!
Katie Olmsted 18:06
But, I also assume there are many challenges to getting more neurodivergent people into, and neurodiverse people, into the classroom setting. Is that something that you found as you were pursuing this career?
Lindsay Rice 18:22
Yeah. And so I was really lucky that my, not the person that came and observed me like during my student teaching, um, he was amazing and supportive. And he knew that, even though my teaching style wasn't that of a normal teacher, that it was effective, because I can't sit still. Like I said, today at PD, like, I thought my head was going to explode from having to sit for so long. And so my students are constantly up, they're constantly moving. Most of my work is done through, like dancing and music and art, and finding ways to build and bolster neural pathways - very much about the neuroscience and even using clinical research with my students. And so by doing that, a lot of you know, your "old school" teachers weren't really fond of having me in their classroom. And so all the things that I would argue have made me a successful teacher, that on average, my scholars outperformed projections by about 30 to 40 percentile points. So my average or my median growth from last year in reading was 150% of end of year growth, so -
Katie Olmsted 20:00
That probably includes neurotypical and neurodivergent kids in together, so it's it's not just beneficial to one style of learners.
Lindsay Rice 20:09
Oh, 100%! Um, I mean, a lot of it is just based on neuroscience, and the fact and age appropriate amount of time to sit and the amount of memories that can be created in an event, you only remember the beginning, middle and end. So if your lesson is an hour and a half long, you've essentially wasted almost an hour.
Katie Olmsted 20:38
So that brings us to your book. What would - I'm speaking it into the universe - once it is published, what can people expect out of it?
Lindsay Rice 20:49
It is that kind of my life story of the interesting adventures that neurodivergence has gotten me into. And hopefully it will help educators and parents and other people that are neurodivergent kind of learn about the fact that there are, first of all, all different types of neurodivergence. And even within one person, you might see my neurodivergence differently, depending on the day. I'm trying to teach people about masking. Like, just because you meet me one day, and I have everything together because I don't have a lot of other balls in the air, per se, doesn't mean if you meet me three days later, you're gonna get that same amount of normal, just because, quote, unquote, acting normal or masking takes up a lot of energy. And so a lot of the stuff in the book is just experiences that I've gone through or my students, you know, things that I've been able to do with my scholars, and how to support our neurodivergent people around us. I talk a lot about different things that my own personal children have been through. And I'm hoping that basically, since I can't get away from neurodivergence with myself and my kids and my students, that it'll help other people to see and understand some of the things that their loved one do.
Katie Olmsted 22:37
Well, Lindsay, I thank you for taking the time to help us see and understand your perspective and really shine a light on this very important topic. Thank you.
Lindsay Rice 22:47
Thanks!
Katie Olmsted 22:51
Lindsay is currently looking for an editor to help organize what she's written so far. And if you know anyone who could help her out, send me an email at EducationMatters@ohea.org. That's also the email address you should use if you have any ideas about other segments you'd like to hear on Public Education Matters. And that's actually how I heard from our next guest, Brittany McCarey. She's an Aspiring Educator at Grand Canyon University, expecting to graduate in 2026. And she emailed educationmatters@ohea.org to suggest a discussion on developmentally appropriate practice, or DAP, in early childhood education. Take a listen.
Katie Olmsted 23:33
Brittany McCarey, thank you so much for sitting down to share your thoughts with us. Let's start with those big picture questions. What is developmentally appropriate practice in early childhood education? And why are you so passionate about advocating for it?
Brittney McCarey 23:50
So just based off the reference from National Association for the Education of Young Children, developmentally appropriate practice, which is also known as DAP, is a method that focuses on promoting each child's optimum development and learning through play-based, strengths-based approaches. It emphasizes creating inclusive environments that support children's physical, cognitive, social and emotional wellbeing, while recognizing their individual strengths and cultural backgrounds. I'm passionate about it because they focus a lot on play-based curriculums, and that, to me is what early childhood education is. I've been reading a lot that it's been taken out of the curriculum: 'Children play too much,' 'there's you know, too much play not enough, you know, structure work' and things like that. So I'm all about play. Kids learn a lot through play. That's That's what being a kid is about, playing.
Katie Olmsted 25:03
And let's be real: adults learn a lot through play as well.
Brittney McCarey 25:06
Yes, they do.
Katie Olmsted 25:08
So in an early childhood classroom, what does DAP look like in practice?
Brittney McCarey 25:13
So if it's in the classroom, DAP stresses the importance of observing, documenting, and assessing children's development, and learning in early childhood education. Observing, assessing, those are the fundamentals of early childhood education. You have to be able to observe, you have to be able to track the progress of what a child is doing. So all of that is key fundamentals of being an early childhood educator.
Katie Olmsted 25:47
For the sake of full disclosure, I have a five year old in preschool right now. So I am deep in the trenches of early childhood education with the developmental milestones and all of that. But for people who aren't in this every single day, what are the things you're trying to observe? And what are the skills you're trying to work with these students to acquire through DAP?
Brittney McCarey 26:10
So they work around children's development, and culturally, where where they are culturally. Getting to know a child, their environment, how they were raised, where they came from. And then linguistically, their the response to be somebody's assessments and some of the observations so how they respond to certain things. So they, they focus a lot around the development of the child, where the child came from, and linguistically how they were respond.
Katie Olmsted 26:53
And the ultimate goal, I assume is to have them move into kindergarten or whatever comes next, ready to learn, with the skills that they need to to succeed and to thrive.
Brittney McCarey 27:05
Yes.
Katie Olmsted 27:06
We talk a lot about this, but how important is it to have that high quality early childhood education?
Brittney McCarey 27:14
To me, it's really important to have that. You can't - what does it mean to have high quality would be my question. Because high quality to me may not look the same as someone else. But I know when you remove things like taking out a child's play time, or hands on or structure - All of that is fundamental. So high quality is combining all of it together, not just focusing on centers that only focus on play or centers that only focus on hands-on. Take all of it and combine it together. I think that would be a high quality.
Katie Olmsted 28:03
Definitely important to have that well-rounded program, the play with a purpose sort of thing.
Brittney McCarey 28:10
Yes.
Katie Olmsted 28:11
Talking to other educators, maybe some who are already in early childhood education settings, what would you tell them about how to best implement the DAP methods into what they're already doing?
Brittney McCarey 28:26
So the best way to implement it is by - educators can navigate the program administration, professional development, research, public policy, all of those promote optimum development and learning for all children. So once again, you can't just do one part, this part, you kind of got to combine everything together to be able to implement it. You have to research, you have to go to those professional development classes. You have to you have to do it all.
Katie Olmsted 29:06
And I can hear in your voice how excited you are to do it all. Why do you want to be an early childhood educator?
Brittney McCarey 29:14
Oh, my why. My why focuses on my own two children. I have a 17 year old and then I have a 12 year old. And my why for being an early childhood educator is all about them. I was an ECOT stay at home mom with my 17 year old when he was in kindergarten. And then I did pre-K with my 12 year old when she was on her way to go into the big girls school. So it's all about my own two children.
Katie Olmsted 29:43
And the love of learning that you'll be imparting for so many other children in the future. I'm really excited to see that
Brittney McCarey 29:50
Yes, I am too.
Katie Olmsted 29:53
Well Brittney, thank you so much for sitting down to share your thoughts and to really help us understand what DAP is.
Brittney McCarey 29:59
Thank you.
Katie Olmsted 30:03
Well, that does it for this episode of Public Education Matters. Remember new episodes drop every other Thursday this season. Until next time, stay well. And remember, in Ohio, public education matters.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai