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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
The Sex Talk I Never Had with Sam Jolman - Part 1
00:00
Hey guys, welcome back to the podcast. This is Chris Bruno and I am again here with my co-host. Jesse French, good to be with you, Chris. Hey Jesse, good to be with you too. And you know, there are some people that you meet along the way when you're like, oh my gosh, this is a man of kindred spirit. This is a man who just lives and breathes in some ways that are really similar to you, to me. And we have the privilege of having
00:27
one of those men on the show today. His name is Sam Joelman. I met Sam, I think it was a 2014 when we first met at some trainings that we were mutually in and became friends as a part of that through that kindred spirit. So guys super excited to have Sam join us today. Welcome Sam to the podcast. Thank you. And I must say that that feeling was very shared by me. I felt that instantly with you as well, Chris and Jesse, we met.
00:55
Maybe within the last couple of years, just my think. Yeah, a little more reset. Yeah. Yeah. I've taken a two so far of my sons on your base camp excursions and have loved those. And I imagine that's maybe where we met, but I have one more son to bring through who's very much looking forward to it. Awesome. Love it. Love it. Well, and then they just get older and you can come on the next level as well. That's right. With each of them and it's just- Which we're planning on. This perpetual cycle.
01:24
Well, Sam, so for people who don't know you have the privilege of knowing you personally, tell us a little bit about you, just some basic demographics, and then we're going to dive in to some of your work. So yeah, that's great. Well, I am, I like to say I'm a lover, a father, a therapist and an author, probably in that order. I'm married. I've been married. We just crossed 21 years of marriage. We could go. Congratulations. Yes.
01:52
I'm a father of three sons. I'm an author. I have a book coming out in a couple months called the sex talk you never got. My debut. So trying to start a conversation around men and sex that's a little different, a little more honoring, a little deeper. And I'm a therapist and I've been a therapist, which is why we met Chris in a therapist training, but a therapist for men, married couples, and sexual trauma in particular.
02:22
Yeah. Well, you know, as thanks for that, Sam, and to have met you and your kids and your wife and just to have experienced you in the various places that we have, like I am really excited to talk today about the book that's coming out about your debut book. I know it's not something that happened overnight, both in the writing and in the editing and all that stuff, but I think it's also been
02:46
couple decades in the making of working with men and their stories, your own story and their stories and all the things that you've experienced. So that is what we want to talk about today is the book called The Sex Talk You Never Got. I even really love the subtitle there, which is reclaiming the heart of masculine sexuality. And I love that. So before we started recording, you mentioned a visit to the Verizon store and I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about like what happened.
03:16
at the Verizon store. Can I just say real quick though, I hate the Verizon store. And so like I'd rather go to the DMV or like any other challenging place, like the Verizon store is the worst. And so I'm excited to hear this because I have my own set of issues with that. So thanks already, Sam, for like maybe inviting the fact that good things could happen there besides pulling your hair out and talking about phones. So sorry, just getting that off my chest.
03:43
That feeling is shared, right? Who wants to go to the cell phone store? It usually means you have some issue, right? You got to get hammered out. And alas, that was indeed why I was there. But yeah, I walked in and you know, you're expecting some of the sales pitchy stuff, right? From trying to upsell you, you know, the sales agents trying to upsell you. So I can't remember the guy's name, but a 20 year old guy.
04:05
And I explained my issue and he says, well, you know, maybe we can upgrade you to a business, you know, line. And I'm like, here we go. Right. And what do you do? And I tell him I'm a therapist and an author. Oh. And and I knew I winced at like, oh, man, I don't know where this is going to go. Right. So you're an author like you've written a book. And I said, well, yeah, I have a book coming out this summer called The Sex Talk You Never Got. And instantly.
04:33
And this has happened many, many times. Instantly, he responds with, oh, I never got a sex talk. And right away, we are in this guy's sexual formation. And he said to me, he carried on with his story. Yeah, my dad, my mom said, what did he say? My mom gave me a book and said, your dad won't talk to you about this. So here's a book.
05:00
And if you have any questions, ask your brother because I'm not a guy. Hmm. Whoa. And, and he said, so I talked to my brother and my brother got it wrong. Like got how the anatomy even works wrong. And he was laughing because he's now married. This guy was newly married, obviously. And he laughed and said, yeah, my brother got it wrong. And that made for a lot of mess. I think there was some trail off comment, right? In terms of.
05:30
where that story went for him. But you kind of get right, like right away, I mean, I'm in the middle of this guy's sexual formation story. And you can just imagine, like, if I ask the next question, like, but what do you mean it got messy from there? Right? Where we would go. Right. Yeah, it's surprised me how hungry men are to talk about their sexual formation stories.
05:59
Mostly they're failed sexual formation stories. So Sam, thanks for bringing us into the Verizon store with you and this conversation with this 20 year old guy. And I can imagine that that's not uncommon for you to have a conversation like that. That when you say, I'm an author of this book, that instantly there's some kind of story that comes out from people. And even if they are like, oh, that's interesting. And they walk away.
06:27
you're also in the middle of their story. Right? They don't want to talk about it. But by and large, I want to say one thing and then ask one thing. By and large, I imagine that the sex talk that you never got, you just said this brother got it wrong, even the anatomy. I'm imagining what you're talking about with the sex talk is not the anatomical descriptions of what happens in the course of sex. There is part of it.
06:57
Right. So formation is what you're talking about. So let's talk about that. Yes. Yes. So, you know, if you did get a sex talk and which is rare, surprisingly rare, but if you did get a sex talk, it was probably something like basic anatomy lesson, tab A, slot A, sperm meets ag, babies. Right. And if you have any questions, let me know. And it was probably from a very uncomfortable father or father figure who
07:25
wanted to get it over with, right? And it was awkward and boom, and it was done. Or maybe it was followed up with like a purity lecture, right? Like here's how sex works, but hey, don't think about this. Don't feel it. Don't do it. Right. And so soaked in fear and yeah. So in the book, what I talk about is, you know, there's the mechanics of sex and you probably got a basic version of that. Or you figured it out.
07:55
real quick from friends or a book or a video at school, right, in a health class. But what often gets missed is the poetics of sex. And I'm borrowing that phrase from an author, Esther Perel. But the mechanics of sex is how bodies work, how arousal cycles work, how your physiology works. But the poetics of sex is the heart of sex, desire, longing, the story that shapes your sexuality.
08:23
Right? Like this guy in the Verizon store, it's the part that we would have probably stepped into next. Right? Like where did it go? Where did his sexual desire taken? I tell a story in the book of a guy that I knew, a client of mine, who when he was 14 on a Saturday morning walked down the stairs, probably half awake. He's eating his cereal, or he's getting a bowl for cereal and his dad is in the, in the kitchen.
08:53
drinking coffee, milling about, turns to him and throws him something. He catches it, looks down, and he's holding a pack of condoms. And his dad looks at him and says, just don't get a girl pregnant. He walks out of the room. And that was the only sex talk he ever got. Wow. Yes. So if we just unpacked right, like,
09:21
Okay, the mechanics, here's some condoms, right? But the poetics, what's the story being scripted to this young man about sex? It should just work. Yep, don't get it wrong, right? Like the consequences are, it's high stakes, don't screw it up, right? Yes, yes. Right, keep it in a rubber, meaning you're kind of an animal. So cage it. I mean, you could say a lot of things there, right?
09:49
So say even like, that's such a good example, Sam, could you even just unpack that term sexual formation? Like how would you define that? Or like, how do we understand? Cause I'd imagine that's a newer term maybe for some of the people listening. How would you explain and define what that is? Yeah, so, you know, we're probably maybe somewhat familiar with spiritual formation, right? But even male spirituality is a neglected category. But the way you've been formed, right? That there's an inner person,
10:18
that needs to be formed in you, the heart or your soul, right? Sexual formation, and I would say this, your sexual formation, your sexuality was probably the most neglected area of your life. Meaning you probably got the least conversation. I think it's like 6.4 hours and that's in public education is dedicated to conversations about sex. And probably less in the home.
10:48
collectively. So just to start with, sexual formation is probably the most neglected part of your life. And what do I mean? What was the story of sex? How was sex narrated to you? Romance, conversations, yes, about your body, right? But beyond just how does the anatomy work, but like the blessing of your body or conversations on how to ask a girl out or
11:17
how to kiss a girl, right? Some of those conversations, but kind of the sum total of all the conversations were experiences you had around sexuality. Yeah. So in the areas of that formation, Sam, you in the book, you talk about all kinds of categories. One of them towards the beginning is the category of awe. And I'd love for you to unpack like,
11:46
even just sitting in not just the mechanics of sex, but the purpose of sex and how sex and awe are related. Can you? Yes. Take us in there? Yes. Okay. So, you know, most of us are told that purity or at least the implication is, right? That purity is kind of the goal of your sexuality. Like there's a really strict environment in which this is meant to show up, but.
12:14
Probably most of the time you just need to shut it down and that purity is your goal maybe even in marriage right that there can almost be this script of Well gosh, you probably need to have sex so that you're not lusting Elsewhere and there there can even be scripts around that but I think that the goal This is another one of those poetics, right that you are wired as a man for beauty
12:43
that you are wired to be moved by the beautiful. And that's part of how I think God made you to be a lover, that at your core, your core sexual identity is as a lover. So if you look in the Bible, right, the two, again, this is my opinion, the two most kind of erotic moments for, or places for men. Adam in the garden when he's first meeting Eve,
13:11
fully naked with no sin and no shame. And he's seeing the full beauty of Eve in her full nakedness, right? Mesa, it comes across to me as a wildly erotic moment. And what does he do? He breaks into poetry. Or take the Song of Songs, right? Another wildly erotic book. And what's the picture of the man?
13:41
What is he doing? He is very much into his lover, his beloved, right? And it's very erotic, like they are making love. These are scenes of come away with me to the countryside, right? It's not just to eat a snack and have a picnic, right? There's an implication, like I want to go make love with you in a field. That's not a chaperoned date. Yes, right, and.
14:08
I mean, obvious by the descriptions of her body. Like, he is very familiar with her body. So they are having sex. What's he doing with the fruit of that? Poetry. Right, so I'm not saying every man needs to become a literal poet. But what I am saying is that you are a lover at your heart. And that involves things like beauty and the fruit of a good-hearted man.
14:36
in the presence of beauty is awe. You are meant to take in the full pleasure of what's in front of you, whether that's a beautiful sunset or the naked beauty of your wife, right? That it's meant to not just thrill the body, but thrill the heart and the soul and take you into what I would say is, as worship to God, like a gratitude to God, that all genuine awe leads to
15:05
as Eugene Peterson says, leads you to want to search for somebody to thank, right? That you would see a beautiful sunset or have good sex and say, wow, thank you to whoever made this. That was amazing, right? I think that's meant to be the fruit of your sexuality too. Right. And what a different story than just throwing a box of condoms across the kitchen.
15:34
Yes. Right. Yes. There's something about what you just said, like cloak it, keep it, protect it. If you're going to do the mechanics of it, the purpose is to maintain it and keep it from its full effect. Yes. Yes. And what you're saying is the design of God is to release awe and beauty into the world and to bring all the fullness of what that is in the interplay of, in the play of
16:04
Yes, yes. And it, you know, there's a woman writer, her name is Emily Nagoski, and she writes on sex. But she says, kind of commenting on this idea of, and it gets scripted this way as well for men, that sex is a need, right? It's an urge, and it's a need, and you know, you just need to have regular sex or regular release. And can you just hear how unromantic that is, right?
16:33
Gosh, well, it's probably time. I need my sex like my vitamin. And, and I think, I think that really sets men up to be confused about even their own bodies, right? Because it's like, well, I've got to take care of this somehow. But Emily Nagoski says, um, and I'm going to try to get this quote right. Your partner is not a source of sustenance that you need to hunt. Your partner is not to be hunted for sustenance.
17:01
but a beauty keeper whose depths are infinite." I love that. Wow, that's a great quote. Yes. In other words, there's this urge model of sexuality, right? Which is, I've got to do something with this tension in my body. And there is hormonally sexual tension you can feel. You can feel the tension of your hormones and your urges and your desire. But sex is not a drive like other bodily functions,
17:30
food or water or oxygen. It's desire. So the desire model is more of the lover model, right? You might really, really, really, really want sex, and that's okay, but it's never life or death. It's not going to kill you. Nobody's ever died from not having sex.