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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00] Kathleen: [00:01:00] You
[00:01:10] Sonia: in providing compassionate and evidence based therapy for people struggling with a variety of mental health issues, including addiction. Her holistic approach integrates mindfulness, cognitive behavioral techniques, and a strong emphasis on the therapeutic relationship. Erin also uses the internal family systems, or IFS model, which is an innovative approach to psychotherapy that she'll share with us today.
[00:01:37] Kathleen: Aaron's dedication to helping clients navigate the recovery journey makes her an invaluable resource in the field of mental health and addiction recovery. And we are so, so thrilled to have her here with us today to share her insights and expertise. Good morning. Welcome.
[00:01:53] Erin: you guys so much for having me. I love your podcast. I love your mission and just the population that you reach. I'm [00:02:00] so passionate about. So, so grateful for the opportunity.
[00:02:03] Sonia: Thanks, Aaron. So Aaron, can you tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to become a psychotherapist?
[00:02:10] Erin: absolutely. So I guess we can trace it back to like way back in the day I couldn't remember being pretty young and and just having that something in me that wanted to connect with people wanted to help people So I thought you know, I'll be a doctor at big dreams of you know Doing like doctors without borders or something like that very quickly realized numbers chemistry biology Not for me, right?
[00:02:36] Erin: So, I kind of pivoted a little bit and, I always had that interest in, like, psychology and what was happening in the internal world of people, what made people work, what, you know, I saw these people living their lives and, you know, what you see on the outside, but I knew that Deep down, there was these personal experiences that were, you know, making them see the world differently [00:03:00] and, and, and contributing to how they behaved and how they loved and how they felt and how they lived.
[00:03:04] Erin: And I had such an interest in that. So I started taking psychology in university, and I absolutely loved it. And then, you know, I had my own struggles. I had my own I'm in recovery from addiction and an eating disorder and experiencing that firsthand gave me such a, an interest in a passion for not only just figuring it out, but but just connecting with that depth in in people.
[00:03:31] Erin: So, I'm in recovery and that's been a beautiful experience that shaped my life and it also shaped my career. It's given me such a deep passion for connecting with people in that way and and trying to help when a lot of the world shies away from that. Yeah,
[00:03:46] Kathleen: what inspired you to start Rose Psychotherapy?
[00:03:49] Erin: so I became licensed. I worked in the field for, for many years in, um, like treatment settings and working with people in organizations, [00:04:00] community, mental health, absolutely loved it. You know, working in the front lines, working with people in their crisis spots and seeing them come out of that.
[00:04:07] Erin: And,
[00:04:08] Kathleen: huh.
[00:04:10] Erin: a beautiful journey and being able to connect with people in that way. And I did come up against some limitations, right? So, in terms of community, mental health, and some of those programs, it's very time limited. The amount of work you're able to do with someone is kind of, it stays on the surface and you're more of the stabilization and and connecting them to other supports.
[00:04:30] Erin: And, and I felt this urge in me to, and this need with the clients to, to go. Deeper, instead of just kind of managing symptoms, getting down to the roots and the conditions and the causes. Um, but I wasn't able to do that in my previous roles. So I always knew I wanted to be in private practice, be able to follow these clients along their journey in a deeper, more holistic way.
[00:04:55] Erin: and it took kind of some life circumstances on my end, having a couple [00:05:00] babies, to, uh, to give me the space and the. The motivation to like, I'm going to do this. I think I could do this. I think having the babies made me realize, like, yeah, I actually probably can do scary, hard things. So I'm going to just take a leap of faith that I'm going to see how it goes.
[00:05:14] Erin: And it's just been such an amazing experience. Also, I wanted to be able to provide. It's interesting. There's, there's a lot of community mental health agencies and a lot of people who. Come out of college and are able to work with addictions. but if you get higher up in, in the kind of tears in terms of psychotherapy, there, there wasn't a lot of, um, licensed psychotherapist registered psychotherapist who did addiction specific work with addiction specific training.
[00:05:44] Erin: And I, and I noticed, and I felt, in the community, a little bit of a fear, or like a shying away of like, oh, You know, if it's addictions, we refer out you know, I don't do addictions and I thought I, I do addictions. I'm going to do addictions, right? And be that, be that place and be that [00:06:00] support.
[00:06:00] Erin: So, so that's really where the idea of psychotherapy came from.
[00:06:04] Kathleen: that's amazing. I'm really happy to hear that evolution from you.So I'm really excited to dive into this today. And as a psychotherapist myself, I'm always really interested in learning about Therapeutic modalities and how they can be used for addiction sobriety and i've been lucky enough to have a great therapist myself who has used ifs with me So i've been on the client side of it But i'm hoping that you can just launch in and start to explain what ifs is or internal family systems and how it works
[00:06:34] Erin: absolutely. Yeah, I love IFS too, and I very much relate to like, I just have to stop myself from taking all these different trainings because I'm so interested in the different modalities people use. Um, IFS is a modality that drew me to it. Years ago, and I think because of my own personal experience, so in my own recovery and the treatment and support I got during my, um, [00:07:00] my early recovery, there was a lot of this idea of externalizing the addict, externalizing the eating disorder as this other kind of entity, this other part of me that had its own motivations and its own desires.
[00:07:12] Erin: So what that kind of looked like is, oh, the, the. Part that wants to drink is telling you a lie right now, or the part that wants to drink is not who you are, and it, it helps me connect to this idea that I am not this big, bad addict thing, that, that's a part of my experience and that there's this other part of me that wants to be sober and is a loving, caring person.
[00:07:35] Erin: Person in society, and so that's kind of where the seed was planted with and then in my own, work experience and working with clients, we used a lot of that externalization. So it wasn't proper, but it was these concepts and ideas of externalizing and recognizing that we are. multiplicities like we have different parts.
[00:07:56] Erin: We're not just 1 whole and we can, kind of [00:08:00] map that out and see these different parts of us. So that's where my interest in IFS came from. So, I, I followed through with, reading all the books and doing all the trainings and implementing it with clients. And it's just kind of grown from there because it's so effective.
[00:08:13] Erin: And of course, it depends on the client, and it depends on kind of the process and what's going on. But it tends to. Be pretty effective and quick in terms of being able to make those big shifts, especially with addiction.
[00:08:26] Erin: So IFS is in terms of kind of, if we look at the history of all modalities, it's a newer 1, it's about 40 years old. It was developed by Richard Schwartz in the 80s. And he was a, he's a family therapist. So he was very like systems thinking and saw things in terms of the different roles that people in a family play.
[00:08:47] Erin: but he developed it because he was coming up across these barriers with clients with eating disorders, and there just wasn't any movement and he felt like I'm not helping here. And he started really listening to what the clients were saying, and that's where [00:09:00] this idea of parts came out.
[00:09:01] Erin: It was the clients that gave him this, uh. Concept that we all have parts, and he ran with it and did some research and got a team together and just developed this theory that has since gained traction and is now an evidence based theory. And it was, you know, very. Popular right now, clients tend to want and and clinicians are getting trained in and I think that's because it resonates very deeply with people.
[00:09:29] Erin: This idea that we have different parts of ourselves and different experiences. And so some of the core principles of is. Is are that we have parts that we are not 1 united whole being and that inside of our own experience. There are different parts. There's 3 different types of parts that I identify.
[00:09:49] Erin: So the 2 of them fall under the umbrella of protectors. So those are the. Managers and the firefighters and then the other is the exile. So if we think about [00:10:00] kind of what protectors do. those parts function to keep the system. Safe to keep the system in line to keep us socially acceptable and to avoid pain and.
[00:10:13] Erin: Sadness and kind of anything overwhelming that in general people don't want to experience. And exiles are the ones that hold that pain, hold that pain that we don't want to look at, hold that pain that we feel is going to overwhelm us. So these and I conceptualize it sometimes with clients as. inside, like, in our core, these, these little,inner children that, that may have gotten hurt or picked up pain and, and IFS calls them burdens along the way.
[00:10:40] Erin: So, attachment wounds or trauma from the past, or even, you know, something that. Might be in the human spectrum is kind of normal, but very painful for our younger selves and those exiled parts. Hold on those inner children. Hold on to that pain and it shapes the way that we see the world and we see people, but we don't want to [00:11:00] feel that pain every day.
[00:11:00] Erin: So we kind of lock them away, right? We just, we don't want to look at it. We lock them away. And that's hence the word exile. They're, they're kind of stuck in there. And then in front of the exiles are these firefighters and managers and the managers are the ones that we probably think they're ourselves.
[00:11:16] Erin: So they're the ones that are showing up in the world and making sure we're not late for work and that we're controlling people, places and things around us and managers are like the perfectionists and the inner critics. Which we all know pretty well, especially in addiction recovery. I think we, those managers really can come online pretty intensely with the self criticism and judgment.
[00:11:40] Erin: and then the firefighters show up and they're the messy ones, right? They come in an emergency. They come in when that exile is triggered or that pain is kind of going to come up and overwhelm us or threaten to overwhelm us. And, They put out the flames, they put out the flames with drugs or alcohol or eating disorders or unsafe [00:12:00] coping or, you know, and sometimes also safe coping.
[00:12:03] Erin: Right? So it depends what the tools in the arsenal the firefighters have, but they show up to in the short term to to numb it out or to, Calm that Excel down and so there's this polarity and this kind of constant shifting that happens and within our parts. another core principle of is that there are no bad parts.
[00:12:24] Erin: So, even though we might have really messy firefighters. They have a really important purpose, and they're trying to do their best to keep us safe and protect us. And even though our managers can be really mean and make life super difficult. Sometimes they're doing their best to protect us, too. So, the no bad parts and the other core principle, I think is really important.
[00:12:49] Erin: Is that underneath all of that? We are self, but we have self energy. We have a part. That is not a part, it's who we are, it's our core essence and it is [00:13:00] untouched by that pain, unburdened, calm, compassionate, curious. It's the space that we in IFS aim to kind of be able to live from.
[00:13:12] Sonia: So, Aaron, when I'm like listening to this as a layperson, I'm thinking of like movies where there's people with like multiple personalities, right? so there's the person that comes in to protect you and, or protect that inner child. so how do you introduce this concept to your clients without them being like, Oh my God, is this From a movie of multiple personality, or maybe the other way to look at it is like, I'm going to go to the gym today.
[00:13:37] Sonia: And I what I really want to do is like lay on the couch and watch Love Island. But there's part of me that knows I have to go to the gym. And so, yeah, how do you introduce this concept to your clients?
[00:13:47] Erin: Yeah, yeah, that's that's a thing for sure. So, it depends on the client because some people will come in. It's, it's never what I, I'm never doing it in the 1st, 5 minutes of the 1st session that we meet. we do [00:14:00] the rapport building and we do the connection 1st. And it's interesting to see what will come out because some clients actually, whether they've heard of IFS or not have the language of parts already, they intuitively feel like.
[00:14:11] Erin: Yeah. Like, what you just said, there's, there's a part of me that really wants to, show up for work every day and get that promotion and eat healthy. And then there's this other part that I don't understand that just says effort. I don't care. I'm going to do what I want. So, sometimes clients really have that language already and will.
[00:14:28] Erin: We'll use that and just build on it in a way that feels comfortable for the client and over, throughout that process. I'll explain like, hey, there's this concept of it actually talks about those parts. And so the language and the kind of framework is already there for the client and that tends to be like a fairly easy kind of connection moving forward.
[00:14:46] Erin: I might say, do you mind if we. Can we talk to that part that you're noticing? Do you have anything to say? Is that part saying anything to you? And so that's kind of an entrance into the work and, and we gauge constantly. Are you comfortable with this? Does this make sense? [00:15:00] and then there's other people who it feels, uh, wrong and weird and strange to think of themselves as having parts and other people are really interested, but don't have kind of a concept or a language.
[00:15:12] Erin: So I might use, like, the movie inside out, like, inside out 2 just came out. So people kind of know about it. And, and that's a great entry point, especially for people of kids are like, yeah, I get that. I can go with that for a little bit. I couldn't and and usually once we get talking to the parts or identifying the parts that there's an immediate connection and then some people think this is super weird and I'm not into this and then we just pivot and move on to a different modality.
[00:15:36] Erin: And we might talk about parts here and there, but I, I'm certainly not going to force on anybody. So it really depends who's in the room and what their level of connection and. Yeah. An interest is and how that lands for them.
[00:15:49] Kathleen: What, what do you think are some common misconceptions that you've heard from, from clients about IFS? Or even just overall, what are some [00:16:00] misconceptions you've heard?
[00:16:00] Erin: Yeah, so there's a couple out there that show up, And I think 1 of them is that the idea of is to get rid of parts or to, fix them. Right? So, so even the fixer part shows up and many of, you know, my much of my work with clients. Um, and that's Not what we do in IFS. In IFS we heal and we integrate and we support and we have compassion, but the idea of fixing a part or that gets broken or getting rid of it because it's a bad part is something that makes a lot of sense why people would want to go in that direction, but it's it's not in line with kind of what we do in IFS because I don't think And IFS doesn't think we can get rid of parts, right?
[00:16:43] Erin: They're always a part of us. We were born with them, and they've just over time taken on these extreme roles because of pain and shame and and life experiences. But all of those parts, even if they are acting out really harmful ways to us have, that's just their extreme [00:17:00] role. So underneath that, they have a rightful place in our system and can be useful and effective.
[00:17:06] Erin: So we don't want to get rid of any parts. So, that's 1 misconception that shows up a lot. The other 1 is that IFS is kind of like. Or like spiritual and out there, um, which I get, you know, I, I, for some people, if that feels that way, but it's actually like, it works really well with spiritual traditions and this idea of the self and core connection to our true essence.
[00:17:31] Erin: And that can jive with many people's spiritual and religious beliefs, but it's not a spiritual religious therapy and it's actually. evidence based, research has been done. It's very effective in that way. So it's, I think those are the two probably that it's like, oh, really out there. And the other 1 is that we want to get rid of our parts.
[00:17:51] Sonia: so when you are talking to like individual clients, how do you decide essentially that they're a candidate for [00:18:00] IFS therapy, and then how would you tailor that therapy to meet their needs?
[00:18:04] Erin: Yeah, yeah, so I, I really take the lead of the client and, and I think most people could benefit from IFS. There's not really any contraindications aside from if the person is in an unsafe environment while they're, you At the time that they're doing therapy, so if they were in a retraumatizing environment, et cetera, then you wouldn't want to open up the depth of work that IFS does, um, but for the, for everybody else, there's not really any contraindication.
[00:18:34] Erin: However, it doesn't mean that's a fit for everybody. Not everybody would benefit from or finds it helpful to to use IFS. So I really, sit back and I listen and I, I. Connect with the client and listen to what is going on for them. And usually what will happen is you'll hear the parts come out and and there'll be a moment of opportunity [00:19:00] where it's like, hey, did you just did you just realize,
[00:19:03] Erin: How harshly you criticized yourself there or, or does this voice telling you you're never going to be loved show up often? And what does that feel like for you? And and what's the energy there? So, they're usually an opportunity to to see a part in action and we'll go from there. Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.
[00:19:23] Erin: I've had certain clients where there's. It's been the whole kind of IFS unburdening process within the span of one or two sessions because they were ready and that language made sense for them. And other people where it's just very slowly like, let's get to know who's here, who's in the room. Okay. So there's the part that wants to drink.
[00:19:39] Erin: There's the part that wants to stay in bed all day. There's the part that wants to. be held by your mom, so just very slow identification and getting comfortable and familiar with those parts.
[00:19:53] Sonia: that's so interesting too, because I'm, dealing with that voice that like is very critical. And so I don't [00:20:00] think I ever thought about it that way, that that's a part of myself. And so, yeah, I mean, we can unpack this later, but yeah, that's really interesting to me.
[00:20:09] Kathleen: so I wanted to ask about the different parts. So, you spoke about like, exile, manager, firefighter, and self. So, do all of our different parts fall into those categories? Or are there more parts than that? can you just, say more about that?
[00:20:26] Kathleen: Because I think yes, we have those roles, but then, the part that wants to let's say binge eat Do you put that in a category Is that the firefighter for the exile
[00:20:35] Erin: Yeah, yeah, so it, it can be like, if you go more into it, it can get somewhat complicated. So I'll spare everybody that. But there are the 3 kind of buckets. There are the 3 buckets of parts. So in IFS, at least, so there's other modalities that use concepts of parts, like gestalts and, um, and narrative therapy.
[00:20:54] Erin: So there's other ones, but if we think about the 3, IFS, they, they do fall [00:21:00] under, managers, firefighters, exiles, but parts can have parts too. And often what we would label as a part is possibly the workings or polarizations of a couple different parts. So even like with your example there of, of the binge eating or eating, there's probably a firefighter there who's like, Things feel bad.
[00:21:23] Erin: I'm going to screw it. I'm going to feel better with food. I'm going to eat. I don't care how messy it is. I'm just doing it regardless of the consequences. And then there's probably, also a manager part in there involved to Pushing up against it with the shame and the guilt, which just perpetuates that firefighter part.
[00:21:42] Erin: And then underneath that is like this pain from the exile that's been triggered. So there are just the 3 different types of parts, but they feel different. They look different. And people have. Many, many managers, many firefighters. exiles, so it's not just kind of like, oh, I [00:22:00] have 3
[00:22:01] Kathleen: right so How do you help? Clients identify and understand their different parts. Are you doing like psychoeducation with them first about the parts? Are you helping them name them in the moment? how is that process?
[00:22:15] Erin: So there's a couple of different ways to go about it. And really also client that I tend to. Try to avoid, lots of me talking about the theory because clients don't care. but I will, I want everybody to be informed about, what we're doing here. So I do give it a kind of this. Hey, there's this kind of concept that we have parts and.
[00:22:35] Erin: And so I'll do a little bit of introduction there, see if they feel comfortable with it. But a lot of it is in the moment as they're speaking, as they're sharing with me and talking about their experiences. able to kind of slow down and say, hey, what, what was that part? Who, whose, whose voice is that?
[00:22:53] Erin: What does that feel like for you? Does it feel different than the part that was just talking to me a few minutes ago about [00:23:00] how much you love walking your dog and then in those moments, it's like, wow, that does feel so different. You know, typically, We start with the inner critic because that one shows up all day, every day.
[00:23:11] Erin: that's usually what I see most with my clients is or really people in general is that inner critic is just right out there super loud. So we'll just go into an investigation of how is that showing up for you? there's a process and IFS, it's called the 6 F's and essentially what that is is you're finding you're focusing.
[00:23:29] Erin: Um, you're fleshing it out. So really the fleshing it out pieces. Tell me what that part wants. What's it trying to do? What's its role? Um, you're befriending it. So we, and that's, that's kind of a longer process of like, instead of hating that inner critic, we, we try to find a place of, compassion and understanding for what it's trying to do for us.
[00:23:50] Erin: And then, um, And then we dive into like, what are the fears around? Like, what's that part afraid of? Why is it working so hard to keep you in line? What's it [00:24:00] afraid of? And usually under the inner critic, there's a rejection wound or an abandonment wound. If I'm not good enough, people won't love me. And so you get down to that part and and that's.
[00:24:10] Erin: Usually happens in sessions in the moment. There's also parts mapping exercises and journaling exercises. So people that it's really resonating with and connecting with might go away with some journaling activities to, to write to that part or to connect to it in some way. And some really great meditation, so it depends kind of where we're at and what the level of engagement or motivation is with the client, but most of it happens in session and then there's some takeaway work they can do as well.
[00:24:40] Kathleen: Okay. That's amazing. That's really helpful.
[00:24:42] Sonia: Erin, it would be great if we could move on a little bit talking about addiction and IFS. And so how does IFS therapy address addiction? Thank you.
[00:24:52] Erin: Yeah, so I love the way IFS therapy addresses addiction because underneath the theory [00:25:00] is this idea that it's just, we're doing our absolute best with what we have to cope and to live life and to survive and there's no shame, right? So IFS is so compassionate and understanding and allows us to be so compassionate and understanding.
[00:25:16] Erin: In our addiction process and recovery process. so the core of how IFS views addiction is that it's upheld by arguments, polarizations between our different parts. So the part that would drink or use or act out in some sort of addictive behavior would be that firefighter part. The 1 that's called in in an emergency, because.
[00:25:47] Erin: Things are getting triggered. Things are getting too real. There's pain threatening to come up. That exile is triggered and, and so the firefighter will use drinking, drug use, et cetera, to put out those [00:26:00] flames. But then the fire fighters out and it's like. I'm gone, you know, I left this mess here and it's the managers who have to clean up that mess.
[00:26:09] Erin: So the managers then come in after the drinking or using and are like, you're a loser. Why did you do that? Why can't you control yourself, figure it out? Which further creates pain, further triggers that exile and Then the firefighter comes back in, whether it be the next hour, the next day, the next week, month, eventually the pain from that manager from that shame and, you know, whole process of how we feel after doing engaging in a addictive behavior,
[00:26:44] Erin: Gets to be too much too painful and so that firefighters called in again to put out the flames and the firefighter doesn't care what the consequences are, but the manager really, really does. So they're constantly in this kind of polarization and underneath that. [00:27:00] Process is this exile that's like. You know, the system says we can't go there.
[00:27:04] Erin: We can't see that and the exile usually when clients are able to get there and connect with that Excel is is what they would call the root of of the addiction in itself. So that original wound that original. Whether it be trauma or it's usually stuff from childhood, right? The exiles are usually pretty young, those inner children that have been hurt.
[00:27:25] Erin: And some of the imagery that people give me when they're able to connect to that exile, it just is so vivid and so real and tells me so much about why they drink or use. And usually the imagery is like, that exile feels like a little girl Alone in a closet while her parents are yelling that exile feels like, I'm trapped and nobody can hear me yelling like really powerful imagery and tells you so much about the pain that that person's carrying around.
[00:27:57] Kathleen: And it's usually a huge turning point for clients when they [00:28:00] recognize this is what I've been running from. This is where the addiction comes from. So, so there's a couple of different processes there, but, essentially in a nutshell, IFS views it as polarizations and, addiction is held up by these different, connections and frustrations that the parts have trying to help us survive in ways that are really not effective.So I'm assuming that you would never go straight to the exile, that you would work with the protective parts first and the manager and the firefighter because it would be, first of all, I'm assuming not effective to go to the exile parts. You wouldn't be as clear.
[00:28:37] Kathleen: Client may not see it as clearly and also could be. Potentially dramatic to go straight there. so what's your process like for working with a client's protective parts?
[00:28:51] Erin: So, so, so important. Most of the work in IFS is the protective. It was working with the protective parts because there's a lot of them for [00:29:00] good reason, because just like you said, that exile is so vulnerable and so raw and there's often a fear. The system has this, this knowledge, this, this fear that touching into that exile will completely overwhelm them.
[00:29:14] Erin: There's so, uh, so much caution to just never get there, which makes sense, why the firefighters are then so active because they're like, you, shall not pass. Um, so we work a lot with the, with the protectors, with the managers show up first, and there can be a lot of them. So, I've worked with people where it's like, okay.
[00:29:32] Erin: there's so much shame and so much criticism. And so we work a lot with that. And so we're able to Have that step back, have those parts step back and then underneath that will then the intellectuals will show up and say, yeah, I don't know about this. This doesn't make sense. Or. I don't I think my feelings, I don't feel my feelings.
[00:29:51] Erin: And then so that part and so we work with that protector. And if that steps back, then there might be the, I'm so tired. I can't even [00:30:00] think protector. Like, it's very interesting what will show up. So lots of. Of work around protectors, and that might take like many sessions, sometimes just 1. I mean, normally not though.
[00:30:12] Erin: and once there's safety in that system, and the clients on board fully, and has felt the change that happens when protectors do step back the way to the Excel, it just comes up naturally when it's supposed to, but we certainly would never push. I mean, certainly. That's a really sacred, vulnerable space that will show up when it's ready to.
[00:30:35] Kathleen: Okay, and then when you get to the part where you're examining the exiled part of a client, I would imagine It's is it a slow and gentle process? What's the approach when working with, with the exiled parts of a
[00:30:51] Erin: Yeah, so, so slow and gentle, so much compassion, so much really like the clients leading the way [00:31:00] there. So the main kind of way that you work in IFS with the parts is through either direct access, which is would be me talking directly to the part, or the clients being able to connect and talk, speak directly to their part too.
[00:31:16] Erin: So it, it depends kind of where. Things have gone in, but usually it would be the client speaking to that part and telling me what does it look like? What does it feel like in your body? What does it need from you? And so the process with kind of healing that exile is called witnessing and retrieving. And if we think about what that means for clients, it's hearing that pain and hearing that story, hearing what's been exiled and what they've been running from for so long.
[00:31:47] Erin: And it's so emotional. I mean, to go back to
[00:31:50] Kathleen: Mm
[00:31:50] Erin: six year old self and think about how much pain was there, and it's the same, it's the same raw pain that a six year old would [00:32:00] feel because it's been stuck there. to be, to witness that and to have that exile tell its story and, and tell how it feels, what it needs, and then to be able to go in As your self self energy and your adult self and help that 6 year old part or that 10 year old part, by reparenting or bringing it into the present and saying, like, hey, little 6 year old.
[00:32:25] Erin: look at us now, look, I'm a 30 year old person. I can take care of you. I can protect you. And, and that's the retrieving part is, is we, we get it to come out of that. Of past stuck place and into the safety of knowing that the self can look after it now. Um, and that is a very vulnerable, very intense process for many people.
[00:32:46] Sonia: That's interesting. I'm doing EMDR and it seems a little bit similar. I would like to get to the self, that sort of like untouched, unburdened part. how does that concept of [00:33:00] self play a role, especially in people who struggle with addiction?
[00:33:04] Erin: Yeah, so it can be really covered like self is always there. Everybody has a self, no matter who they are, what they've been through or how, what, what they've done. Everybody has a self. Everybody has this core essence of calm, compassionate curiosity that is untouched, by pain, sadness, et cetera. And. It wants to emerge naturally, it's just the protectors, the managers all say, no, I don't trust the self.
[00:33:35] Erin: I don't trust myself. The self has let us down in the past. So it really is about working with those managers and the protectors and the firefighters, to have them return. To their rightful role in the system to, so we would approach them with compassion, curiosity, and understanding, listen to why they think they need to be there, remind them and show them that they don't, [00:34:00] it's not working.
[00:34:00] Erin: What you're doing is not really working. And why don't we try letting self come in here and self emerges naturally when the parts step away. So through the process of IFS and having those parts returned to their roles and heal and unburden self comes out. It's always there, and we can get glimpses of it here and there.
[00:34:20] Erin: And once the client feels that self energy, then it's easier to return to that space.
[00:34:25] Sonia: So, can you share, just from a practical level, how IFS has, like, helped a client of yours in their recovery journey?
[00:34:33] Erin: Yeah, sure. So I shared a little bit, I can share a little bit more in detail about myself, and I did a little bit of this, how being able to conceptualize my addiction and eating disorder as different parts of myself. An attempt to take care of myself and to cope with what was going on was so helpful in [00:35:00] giving me not only hope, but compassion instead of judgment for myself. there was a lot of thoughts around, why did this happen to me? What's wrong with me? I should be smarter than this and an IFS and parts work allowed me to recognize that there were unhealed wounds.
[00:35:17] Erin: Painful parts of myself that were just trying to survive. And so it gave me that compassion and allowed me to practice self care of those parts and of myself. Um, so in that way, it helps me so deeply and I've seen the same with clients. So moving, being able to move from the place, I think, I don't know if this is in the research anywhere, but just what I've seen in my own experience is that self.
[00:35:44] Erin: Criticism and shame is such. A prevalent, if not like the most prevalent factor in people who struggle with addictions, the hatred people have for themselves and the shame that they carry is so [00:36:00] big that it just blocks out the sun. Like, they're just not able to see anything good about themselves or or even hope, sometimes, and IFS really allows people to step back from that a little bit.
[00:36:14] Erin: And connect with other. Parts of themselves that are not, quote, unquote, bad in their eyes and move away from shame and into understanding and compassion. So, in terms of addiction recovery, that compassion piece is huge and IFS gives that to people pretty quickly. Understanding why they do what they do also can be so effective for some people and and connecting with those parts on a deeper level gives them that understanding. also recognizing, okay, this is my firefighter. This isn't me. This isn't my aunt. This is my firefighter. And if it wants to drink, maybe we can give it some other tools right now. maybe we can, give it the tool of calling, reaching out to a friend [00:37:00] or journaling or something else to put out those flames that isn't.
[00:37:03] Erin: Alcohol that isn't drugs and so there's been with clients pretty quick shifts in their ability to understand what's going on. Why have compassion for that? And then use some new skills and tools.
[00:37:15] Sonia: And, Erin, you're working with people who are in, active addiction. Is that something you can do with IFS? they don't have to be in recovery, or do they?
[00:37:27] Erin: So, it depends on the client, so sometimes active addiction can look like. Binge drinking every weekend or using substances or engaging in behaviors every once in a while and they show up to sessions and they're like, I'm here. I'm ready to do the work. Sometimes active addiction looks like it's, it's really hard to even access any part aside from the managers and the, and the firefighter.
[00:37:51] Erin: So it's absolutely possible to, to work with people in active addiction, But the level of depth that people are able to go to is obviously dependent on on who they are [00:38:00] and how they're showing up the. Majority of people that I work with are in the stages of already changing their substance use.
[00:38:11] Erin: So they're like, I've tried this and this and this and I keep coming up against these roadblocks and I keep having a relapse, but there is usually like a greater period of of stability and kind of openness to to or to deeper exploration and other people. If they're kind of in a very intense, acute, active phase of addiction, it might really just be about safety and stabilization for a while until they're able to get to a deeper place.
[00:38:40] Kathleen: So I'm curious, how do you integrate IFS with other clients?
[00:38:48] Erin: Yeah, so I take the client's lead, whatever the person needs in the session, whatever seems relevant in the session. I am eclectic in terms of, you know, I have, I'm trained in a few different modalities, um, [00:39:00] I will use what seems like it would help the client in the moment. I would say with a big chunk of my clients, we'll talk a lot about parts and identifying them and do some work around unburdening them, but it's not IFS. Uh, IFS, right? I would also incorporate. So I use, I use act, I use mindfulness, somatic experiencing, et cetera. Um, so if it seems relevant, it seems helpful. We'll do do too. Okay, so we're working with this part and let's connect with the breathing and the body and see what's going in there. Let's do some psychoeducation around trauma responses.
[00:39:38] Erin: Let's do a safety plan. So it really depends on the flavor of the session and the client's needs at the time.
[00:39:45] Kathleen: I'm curious because I have a background in mindfulness and I use mindfulness a lot in my practice, so how does mindfulness fit with IFS? Or
[00:39:56] Erin: I think it does. I think mindfulness fits with everything, truly. [00:40:00] Um, mindfulness is, yeah, mindfulness is always helpful. If we think about, so even just a cognizant awareness or a connection to the parts, so we might really do some, some good work on, on digging into like, wow, look at those parts, you know, that's, let's be aware of those parts.
[00:40:19] Erin: And then the mindfulness will show up in terms of, As you go outside of session and live your life, let's practice some mindfulness around who's what parts showing up for you. So so it's very helpful in that way. And also, I think underneath it, it's like the feeling of mindfulness where we're. Detached, but in a good way, we are aware, we are able to act and participate in life, but we are not hooked and caught up and run around in all these different directions by emotions and fears and thoughts is the same energy as being in self.
[00:40:53] Erin: So, self is is unhooked self is on. Unattached to these big [00:41:00] feelings and emotions that would have us on that rollercoaster every day. And I think mindfulness is, is the same, right? Where we're able to step back and be peaceful, calm, confident in our ability to live life without being, dragged around by these thoughts and emotions.
[00:41:15] Erin: And so in that way, mindful awareness and self energy feel the same sometimes.
[00:41:22] Kathleen: so Aaron, you just mentioned a little bit about like that mindfulness piece and how clients can be aware of what parts are showing up for them in between sessions. How else can clients work, continue to work with their parts outside of therapy sessions?
[00:41:37] Erin: so that's where, a lot of the work happens for people and they'll come up in to the next session and say, oh, my God, I just realized this and I had this huge awareness or I saw this part was active when I was talking to my partner and. And I listened to it, and I didn't yell back. I instead asked for what I needed.
[00:41:54] Erin: Like, there'll be huge shifts for people when they're able to connect with their parts. So in session, we, we connect, [00:42:00] we, we, we understand, we listen, we do the 6Fs, and then the work that they choose to do kind of outside of that can, it varies. So always I'm, I'm saying, listen, yeah. Be aware, identify, be mindful, notice what's, what's up and who's active and what triggers them.
[00:42:16] Erin: Right? But there's really great IFS journaling activities, writing, obviously so powerful as a release, but also as a way to continue forming those connections and hearing the voices of our parts and what they need from us or what they're trying to do. Really great IFS journaling activities, really amazing IFS meditation.
[00:42:39] Erin: Meditations, self meditations, and, there's even like parts, mapping exercises. So people could, it's not as complicated as it sounds. It's really just drawing on a piece of paper. Like, what, what parts do you know are there, um, in your system, drawing your system? What parts do you know are there?
[00:42:57] Erin: Let's give them a name. Let's what do they [00:43:00] look like? And so that would just be a quick activity as well, but let me just. Yeah. So this is the No Bad Parts book, which is Richard Schwartz's book, and in there, and you can even Google them, is the IFS meditation, self guided meditations, self guided journaling exercises, etc. So lots of, lots of cool tools. One of my favorite things to, Give us homework for clients who are very motivated and interested in exploring these parts is, to write, uh, a letter to usually the part that they have the most kind of hate towards or the most fear about. So, usually a manager, usually an inner critic, write a letter to that, like, a forgiveness letter, or write a letter from that part.
[00:43:48] Erin: Kind of give it a voice. What's it trying to do for you? And that's usually a pretty quick way to access those parts and to access the compassion that comes with understanding why they do what they do.
[00:43:59] Kathleen: Those are [00:44:00] really great practical, practical tips. So thank you. That's very helpful. Thank you, Aaron, so much for sharing your insight and wisdom with us today. And we learned so much and I, I am quite certain that our listeners have too. We would love to have you back to talk about co occurring disorders. you do have experience working at eating disorders as well, um, and how they co occur with addictions. And we will link to Erin's website in the show notes.
[00:44:26] Erin: Thank you so much for having
[00:44:28] Erin: me.
[00:44:28] Sonia: Thanks, Aaron, and thank you for listening to Sisters in Sobriety, and we'll see you next week. [00:45:00]