Codependency: When Caring Becomes Too Much

Show Notes

There’s a version of love where the appearance of devotion masks self-abandonment, and the line between two people becomes blurred beyond all recognition. In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW explore one of the most widely used and misunderstood concepts in modern mental health lingo: codependency. Drawing from its roots in addiction research and clinical experience, they examine how a term originally used to describe patterns in families affected by substance use has expanded into something far broader—and is often used to mislabel normal human connection as pathology. Christopher and Kenyon clarify the difference between healthy interdependence and true codependency, which they define as a pattern in which your sense of self, emotional stability, and worth become organized around managing, fixing, or controlling another person. The conversation explores how this shows up internally—from hypervigilance and guilt to losing touch with your own needs—and how these patterns often begin as adaptive responses to unstable environments. The episode also offers practical, compassionate guidance for shifting the pattern so you can reconnect with your own internal experience, practice detachment with love, and care for someone without losing yourself.

To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com. 

Follow Right Here on Instagram: @lumen_therapy_collective

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Right Here is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.

What is Right Here?

Right Here is a mental health podcast that explores the psychological patterns shaping our relationships, choices, and inner lives. Hosted by therapists Christopher Mooney, LCSW, and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW, each episode offers grounded, compassionate conversations rooted in clinical insight and real human experience. No jargon. No judgment. Just clear, thoughtful dialogue designed to help listeners better understand themselves and the people around them.

SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Lumen, a
podcast that sheds light on

mental health, relationships,
and what it means to be human.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

SPEAKER_01: And I'm Kenyon
Phillips, LMSW.

Each episode we unpack
psychological patterns that

affect our relationships.

No jargon, no judgment.

SPEAKER_00: Just thoughtful
conversations to help you

understand yourself and others a
little more clearly.

Today we are going to talk about
codependency.

SPEAKER_01: Codependency.

It's a word we hear a lot.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: When caring becomes
too like you lose yourself in

it.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

When you care too much and your
life becomes organized around

somebody else.

The way I talk about it with
clients a lot is rather than

being the star of your own
movie, you become a supporting

role in somebody else's movie.

The joke about codependence is
that when they die, they see

somebody else's life flash
before their eyes.

SPEAKER_00: That's an awful
feeling.

But you're like the best
supporting role.

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: You're in you're
you're getting an Oscar nom.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

Because it because everything
about this relationship, this

kind of phenomenon looks like
you are the most caring.

You are everything depend is
dependent on that other

person's.

SPEAKER_01: No, you're like the
perfect friend, the perfect

parent, the perfect partner.

Right.

But it, you know, it does.

It looks like incredible
devotion and care from the

outside.

But on the inside, if you're the
person doing that, doing that

caretaking, if you're the
codependent person, you feel

like you're drowning.

You're reorganizing your whole
day around somebody else's mood,

somebody's whims.

You feel responsible for their
pain, for their happiness, for

the choices they make.

If there's you know recovery
involved, you you feel

responsible for their sobriety.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

And and I think the the
difficult part here, Kenyon, is

that that feeling happens, but
most people don't have the word

to identify it.

Right.

They, you know, it feels like
drowning, or it feels like

resentment, or it feels like
anger building, but there's not

really a an identified word, or
maybe that that draw.

It's just happening through the
relationship, but we don't

really have the word for it, so
we can't say, oh, it's this

thing that's happening.

And the issue and what we're
going to talk cover today as we

talk about codependency is how
this gets conflated with just

being a good human being.

SPEAKER_01: Just being a caring
partner or parent or friend.

SPEAKER_00: Exactly.

And we're going to talk about
how this is this is again one of

those overused words on social
media and through a lot of what

we hear out in the public.

It's just one of these things
that as as we've been talking

about, like gaslighting and
boundaries and trauma,

codependency is another word
that gets overused or maybe Used

incorrectly.

Yeah, misused.

And I I like that idea more
because I still think we need to

use these words because they
define an issue.

SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.:
They do.

And the problem is, I mean, I
the the central issue with

codependency, I think, is what
it costs us to be codependent.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

So let's talk a little bit about
why the word codependency gets

complicated.

And you know, this isn't this
this word came out of, you know,

a lot of addiction treatment and
addiction research in the in the

80s when we really started
putting more effort into finding

out like really what's behind
these patterns of in in

addiction, other than just the
use.

And specifically, researchers
found patterns that were

observed in partners and family
members of people that were

alcoholics or had alcohol use
disorder.

SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.:
That's when I first heard it.

We had an intervention for a
family member who had an alcohol

use disorder.

And that and this probably would
have been 1988.

Yeah.

And there was yeah, the
codependency was the watchword.

SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.:
Right.

SPEAKER_01: Don't be
codependent.

SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.:
Yeah.

And it was a really useful way
to describe the ways people

around somebody who had an
active addiction would organize

their lives around managing that
person or fixing that person or

trying to control the addiction.

So what we would see is like
every, you know, this would be

like the mom trying to like
maybe rationalize or caretake or

or kind of like making sure
there wasn't alcohol in the

house, or the dad was getting
home, like, oh, there would be

no alcohol in the house, there'd
be nothing that would that could

be like used.

Or set anybody else.

Or set.

Yeah.

So you start getting into that
whole that whole realm too of

like, let's not upset the person
who has the act of addiction.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: So everybody's
walking on eggshells.

Right.

But it's so everybody in the
family ends up managing their

life and or in in in the other
person's life just to kind of

keep everything status quo.

Aaron Powell Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: You become like
hyper-vigilant about the other

person, the person who's the
problem or the issue.

You hear the term walking on
eggshells a lot.

SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus
Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And so what happened next is
that that term ended up getting

broader and broader, as as a lot
do, right?

And as as kind of I think use
scenarios change and as time

goes on, we now it's used to
describe anyone who cares

deeply, worries about others or
finds meaning in relationships.

And I think that's where we want
to like kind of say, hey, this

is where we want to call it out.

That's not that's not a bad
thing if you care deeply, worry

about others or find meaning in
relationships.

SPEAKER_01: No.

I did Barbara Streisand sang
famously people who need people

are the luckiest people of all.

We do I think we you and I talk
about connection all the time as

a measurement of mental health.

Like how connected are we to
other people?

Yes, it's okay to need people.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

There's a term for that, and
that's called interdependence.

And interdependence versus
codependence, and we're going to

come back to this a couple times
today, but I want

interdependence means it is that
need for other people.

Codependence is when you're
immersing yourself in in

somebody else's life, that your
your life is defined by the

other person's existence.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01: And your value.

You derive all of your value and
self-esteem and self-worth from

the degree to which you can
manage, quote unquote, manage

somebody else's life.

Aaron Powell That's right.

Aaron Powell So the question
there is it's not do you care

about other people?

SPEAKER_00: No.

SPEAKER_01: It's have you
stopped existing as a separate

person in the process of caring
for other people?

That's the question for somebody
who is, I think, a legit

codependent.

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Well,
this goes back to the boundary

conversation we had.

And I think it's the the
question is, do I know where I

end and another person begins?

SPEAKER_01: Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_00: Totally.

And if and if we recall that,
that's that's we need not a hard

definitive line on that, but we
need to have a real solid

understanding of what that line
is.

Now we we're supposed to have
control over where that line is.

But if we if we don't have an
understanding of where we end

and another person begins, then
that can actually be a really

healthy space for a or not
healthy space, but it's a space

where codependency kind of grows
in its way, right?

SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell
Yeah, that's the dark, warm

environment that needs to spawn.

SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, it's
healthy for this thing, which is

maladaptive or can be
maladaptive.

And again, I wanna I wanna be
clear that codependency is not

it doesn't have to be a bad
thing.

And I think we we talk about the
the term, it gets used as a bad

thing.

It's kind of a oh, you're
codependent.

There are many situations when
you think about parents who love

each other or or love their
children or love each other or

families where you wanna be
caring.

You want to be you want to have
to be there for somebody

consistently.

Sure.

And there's there's going to be
situations where, yeah, my

happiness, it does rely somewhat
on whether my partner is happy

or not.

Like if my partner is miserable
or angry, then it's gonna feel

crappy for me too.

And if it's because I did
something or didn't do

something, right, then then I do
need some level of of

codependency.

There's some level of like
having my my internal feelings

rely on what their reaction is
to judge whether I should be

like making adjustments in the
case.

How accountable we are.

I want to make an adjustment in
the relationship.

So it's not all bad.

SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no.

And that's why it's worth
discussing.

Right.

Let's define it.

Right.

I mean, the clinical definition
of codependency is a pattern

where your sense of self, your
emotional stability, your sense

of worth, your self-esteem
become organized around

managing, fixing, saving or
controlling another person.

And usually that other person is
somebody whose behavior is

unpredictable, painful,
problematic.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

That's the distinction right
there.

So when I was giving the example
of codependency as like an okay

thing, it's that distinction
where the person that you're in

a relationship with, it's that
their behavior isn't

unpredictable or painful.

That's why this term was really
came out of like addiction

research, because when we look
at people with substance use

disorders or alcohol use
disorder, that's there's just so

much unpredictability and pain
for for the individual and for

the people around them.

SPEAKER_01: So Especially for
the people around them.

Yeah.

Like anybody who's grown up in
home where there was somebody

with alcohol use disorder, a
parent or whatever, they yeah,

they they grow up with that
unpredictability and they grow

up with a strong compulsion, I
would say, to try to control the

environment and the
unpredictable person.

Yeah.

Through manipulation, through
various everything strategies

and people pleasing.

SPEAKER_00: That's right.

So I want to break this down a
little bit.

So you gave the core definition,
which is, you know, so

self-worth being tied to another
person's state.

That means if that person's
okay, I'm okay.

Right.

If they're not okay, I'm not
okay.

It's super simple.

Right.

So if if if that person's happy,
I can be happy.

If that person's angry, then I
have to I have to be aware of

what that anger is, and I have
to be really nervous about what

that anger is.

And I might even start to blame
myself for that.

SPEAKER_01: Oh, all the time.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all the time.

SPEAKER_00: So then and then
that feeds into the compulsive

caretaking.

So then I start as a as an
example, I I would start

anticipating the the needs of
that person before they even

express them.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: So people who are
engaging this or or kind of like

have this as like a relational
kind of like experience, they

start to kind of always walk
around and like look and try and

anticipate what is this person
feeling?

What mood are they in?

How are they going to walk
through the door after work

today?

SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell
This is the, I think, typical

trademark walking on eggshells.

That idea.

SPEAKER_00: I have to walk on
eggshells, I have to be very

quiet, very careful, be very
deliberate.

That's called compulsive
caretaking.

SPEAKER_01: It's also called
trying to control somebody else.

Just doing it really.

I'm being very helpful, aren't
I?

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell
Well, that's it's really funny

because it's that you say that
that way, because it it is you

you start when we think of like
people trying to control others,

we think of it being malicious.

The thing you're explaining is
actually it's not malicious.

No.

It's not draconian.

It's survival.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: And and and we're
going to get into that.

This codependency is kind of
born of people needing to

survive in in situations.

SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell That's
so important to point out

because I think so many uh so
many of us, and I've been

labeled a codependent for sure,
we we have shame about it.

It's like, oh, how could you be
so weak?

How could you be so pathetic as
to be a codependent?

But yeah, no, I mean what you're
suggesting here, I think, is

that this is this is an
adaptation.

This is a survival mechanism.

SPEAKER_00: Of course.

SPEAKER_01: And it's
intelligent.

When i if you're growing up in
an unpredictable home where

somebody does have an alcohol
use disorder or somebody's

violent, being attuned to
everyone around you, that's how

you get by.

SPEAKER_00: By the way, if we if
we expand from from that kind of

environment and we start to look
at that can be larger household,

that can be school, that can be
community.

Absolutely.

If we if we really start to look
at workplace.

Absolutely.

This is this is this expands
much further than just within

the home or within a singular
relationship.

We we can actually see this
because as social workers uh

we're always looking at like the
bigger system and what are the

patterns uh in society.

The person in the environment.

Right.

Inequity.

And so we start to to look at
that, and we can actually see

these patterns happen in very
large groups or in in

communities.

But going back to breaking this,
breaking this down, people who

are in this dynamic often have
difficulty identifying their own

needs because they're so focused
on managing the other person's

experience and and how the other
person feels.

SPEAKER_01: They typically
self-abandon.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

That's that's a really good term
for for that.

They often tolerate unacceptable
treatment.

We think about staying staying
when it's too much, staying when

things become harmful and making
excuses for the other person or

for the or for the experience.

SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell
Absolutely.

And that's the classic, you
know, you see the person who's

oh, that poor person's still
married to that alcoholic or

that person who's a a a wife
beater or something, you know,

like the way people talk.

And and you do, yeah, you do see
that.

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell, which
drives the shame, by the way,

because if you start to if
you're the person who has been

labeled the codependent, you
start to hear people, the

whispers of, oh, I can't believe
they're still with that person,

or I can't believe they're still
doing this.

Can you believe they put up with
that?

SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Family
members will will stage

interventions trying to get you
know the codeponent person away

from the violent or
unpredictable or addicted

person.

But you I don't think we can
stress this enough.

It's about fear of abandonment.

It's safer if for people who are
in this kind of a dynamic, it

feels safer than being alone or
being without somebody.

SPEAKER_00: Kenyon, this is one
of my favorite things to bring

up with everybody, not just
clients, but the idea, you know,

there's these statements that I
make all the time.

You can like if you were to ask
my kids, they'd be like, oh my

God, Dad, you say that all the
time.

This is one of them that
negative attention is better

than no attention.

Absolutely.

And our, as human beings, our
fear of being alone, and and we

talk about this all the time.

If you go back through our other
other podcasts, our

conversations that we've had,
our fear of being alone will

outweigh everything else.

And we will do anything we can
to not experience that pain as

human beings, because remember,
we're just like hairless monkeys

or mostly hairless monkeys.

So we need to be part of like
that, that group.

We need to be part of the group
to survive.

It's very primal for us.

So negative attention means
we're still getting attention.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

It's better than neglect.

Absolutely it's better than
abandonment.

Right.

And there are even studies that
I remember studying in grad

school that were shocking to me
at the time, indicating that

children who had been abused
were actually a little bit

better off than children who had
been neglected.

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: And it's the same
thing you're saying.

It's you know, negative
attention, any attention is

better than none.

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell
Yeah.

There was when I was running
running these family groups in

the early 2000s, and it was a
substance abuse clinic, and I

love this.

So we had a multifamily group.

One of the one of the clients
that we had, he he had said, he

had said this phrase and it had
stuck with me at that moment.

And I've heard it, I've heard it
since many times, but he had

said, you know, the opposite of
love is not hate.

The opposite of love is
indifference.

And that I think that really
fits here too, because that is

that idea that if I hate
something, I'm still caring

enough about it to make a
proclamation about it.

Totally.

If it doesn't matter to me, then
it doesn't exist.

Yeah.

Right.

SPEAKER_01: And there is nothing
more painful, I think, honestly,

than being totally dissed and
dismissed.

Just like, oh, that person does
not care whether I live or die.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: But I I love that
you brought up addiction in that

context, because I mean
codependency and addiction,

whatever the addiction is,
whatever the maladaptive

behavior is, they are so
intertwined.

The partner, the family member,
usually unconsciously, ends up

enabling because fixing,
controlling, caretaking gives

them a sense of control, a sense
of autonomy, a sense of agency.

Agency, you always talk about
that, in a situation that's

really fundamentally out of
control.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

We need a purpose.

And when we start looking at
different roles within the

family system, within
relationships.

Oh, I have a I have a purpose
here.

I'm I'm the fixer.

I can caretake, I can I can
solve this, I can make

everything okay.

That role starts to feel it
doesn't always feel good, but it

but it checks some boxes because
it's better than it's better

than watching something spin out
of control and spiral and say,

Oh my god, I have I have no no
say in this.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

And when it's a loved one, when
it's an adult child or

something, I mean like i you
just watching them spin out of

control, it is terribly painful
to feel powerless in the face of

that.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

Now, this isn't blame.

This isn't this isn't something,
and I I kind of pointed to this

before, like codependency makes
complete emotional sense.

This isn't this isn't looking at
somebody saying, Oh, you're

cododependent, you're awful.

This is something that makes
sense.

It's it's survival, it is it's
helping, it's caring, but it's

still there's still an element
of it that needs to change.

And that element is is that that
piece about self-worth that if

if if I don't do this, I'm going
to be worse or I feel worse

about myself.

SPEAKER_01: Or I'm not going to
survive.

And that's the thing for you
know, people who have grown up

in environments where they
needed to be codependent to

survive and to adapt,
understanding, oh wait, I'm an

adult now, I'm no longer a
child.

And the threat that I grew up
with in my family of origin, for

example, is no longer real.

But I'm still acting as if I
need to be, you know,

codependent with my boss or my
partner or my kids.

Right.

Where the shadow remains, that's
where we want to shed some light

and introduce alternatives.

But absolutely right.

No, this is not about shaming or
blaming people for making a

very, as we said before, a very
intelligent adaptation to an

unpredictable environment.

SPEAKER_00: Which is the issue I
see in treatment primarily.

And you know, I s I started this
by saying, hey, let's let's talk

about these words that get
flagged for for us on social

media and get overused.

I I actually think the clinical
world is doing some damage here

because this is this is one of
the words that gets thrown

around a lot and thrown at
people seeking help and trying

to make sense of a really kind
of painful situation and they

get labeled something right
away.

And when they're labeled that,
they're kind of put in a box and

just like dismissed.

Yeah.

Oh, that person's just being
codependent.

Right.

Or look at look at they can't,
they don't have enough agency.

And and you mentioned before,
oh, they're weak.

Can you believe that they're
still there?

And I think back about all the
different substance use programs

and treatment programs I've
worked in, and I'm sure you can

reflect on on your experience
with that too.

And think about how often these
labels get thrown around on

family members and friends and
loved ones and partners and kids

and everybody else trying to
manage chaos.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: And how damaging it
is just to throw a label on

them.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: So we we need to be
really clear that this isn't

this isn't just even a social
media issue.

This is this is actually a shout
out to like clinicians in the

field.

Please be careful about how
you're labeling people with with

these words, because
codependency is not it's not a

bad thing.

It just means somebody cares.

We have to help them understand
where their where their line is.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

And that's where I think it's
it's helpful to to say, okay,

this is what codependency is
not.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: Like here are some
non-codependent situations that

are often mislabeled as
codependent or codependency.

Worrying about someone you love
who's going through something

really hard.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's not
being codependent.

That sounds like you're being a
decent human being.

Right.

SPEAKER_01: Wanting to support a
friend, a partner, a loved one

during a difficult time.

SPEAKER_00: Feeling sad, maybe
when someone that you care about

is actually struggling.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Just feeling sad.

SPEAKER_01: It is sad.

It is heartbreaking.

Being emotionally affected by
people close to you.

SPEAKER_00: Well, that's that's
what we're talking about.

Like I I had mentioned earlier,
if my partner is upset about

something and I'm close and I'm
connected with them and I love

them, then that is correct.

That is a correct response is
for me to say, oh, is there

something I can do to help them
feel better?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

That's not a bad thing.

That's just you caring.

You know, you're you are
emotionally like connected to

that person.

Right.

So that's not codependent.

SPEAKER_01: And then also this
is important: needing

connection, needing closeness,
needing intimacy, needing

reassurance sometimes.

Yeah.

That doesn't mean you're needy
and pathetic and maladapted.

SPEAKER_00: You know, I I talk
about all these cognitive

distortions and anxiety, and how
often people with anxiety and

and obsessions kind of how often
people seek reassurance.

And that's another thing that
gets labeled as like really

maladaptive or bad.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: Right?

Stop, stop seeking reassurance
all the time, or hey, you just

accept this what it is and move
forward.

But you're right.

We need some reassurance
sometimes.

We need a cheerleader sometimes.

We need someone to say, yeah,
no, you are on the right path.

This is working.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

And I have no problem with
giving people who need a lot of

reassurance reassurance.

I'll give you as much
reassurance as you.

need until you can start feeling
more reassured.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

Sometimes it is that is one of
our jobs as therapists.

It's not to fix the problem.

It's to be there and believe in
somebody and hold that while

they can't.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: You know, and and if
that takes reassurance, that

takes reassurance.

If that takes, you know,
cheerleading and and kind of

saying like, no, you got this,
you got this, you got this.

I'm I'm here, we're behind you,
and you you gonna pull in the

the family members, you pull in
anybody you can, we're allowed

to tip the scale.

Absolutely but and I'm what I
mean by that is we're allowed to

put our finger on the scale so
that it it tips in our favor.

I love that.

There's nothing there's nothing
that says that we're not allowed

to do that.

SPEAKER_01: No.

And it's the same I remember
when I was coming up as an

artist I needed reassurance.

It is so terrifying to like get
in front of a microphone and

sing and record for the first
time.

Of course.

And I needed mentors I needed
people around me to say that's

really good.

You should work on that.

That's really good.

You know what I think you could
even I think you could do an

even better take.

SPEAKER_00: Sure.

SPEAKER_01: And that's how I
developed self-confidence.

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell
it's only taken me about what 15

episodes and three three or four
months to start to even feel

remotely comfortable doing this.

Exactly like no no no you got
this and and other people have

been absolutely amazing.

It's like no this is great.

I love it.

SPEAKER_01: It's yeah and again
there's no shame in needing

reassurance and in needing
connection.

You meant you mentioned
interdependence before I did.

SPEAKER_00: So interdependence
is not codependence.

Interdependence is it's it's
healthy.

It's it is it's a healthy
relationship it involves like

mutual need, mutual care, mutual
influence.

You hear the same word over and
over mutual, mutual right this

idea that we affect each other.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: Right?

The it there is an open flow.

Remember when I talked about
boundaries I talked about them

being the valve and that the
valve, right.

The the valve see I really felt
like that was a good example.

I don't know if it really
resonated for everybody, but the

valve and that's what I feel
like there's a valve that we get

to control like so if you and I
are in a relationship and you

get your valve, I get mine, and
we get to kind of regulate that

between us.

That's mutual.

Right.

And we do that through
communication verbal, nonverbal

we do that through joking, we do
that through whatever it might

be.

So that's we affect each other
that way.

If I change that valve and you
don't change yours, so say yours

is open and mine is kind of
closed all right and I close

mine off right away or maybe I
pump a bunch of toxic stuff

through it all of a sudden.

Like I'm in a bad mood so I'm
gonna pump a bunch of toxic

stuff out of mine.

And then all of a sudden you're
like, whoa, I'm taking in way

too much bad the the healthy
thing is to regulate your valve.

If there's an issue with
boundaries or issue with

codependence or you're too
worried about pleasing me or

making sure I'm okay, you're
gonna leave that valve open,

you're gonna take all the bad
stuff in and then you're gonna

feel really crappy about the
whole interaction.

And then you're still going to
try and fix my valve.

Right, right, right.

I got to stop the toxic flow,
the sewage.

But that's that's kind of how I
see this, right?

When I think of like mutual the
mutual part of a relationship

and interdependence versus
codependence.

That's what interdependence is
like hey I've got control of

mine, you got control of yours.

Now let's talk about how we're
gonna regulate that.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely
absolutely we are supposed to

affect one another.

In the end we have to m we have
to basically control our own

valves.

Yeah.

I can't be like reaching over
and adjusting your valve for

you.

SPEAKER_00: I can't it's not
gonna work that's not that's not

yeah we have to be responsible
for ourself.

SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell
That's the thing.

That's the thing you still have
to you still need to have a self

in the relationship.

And if the relationship and my
relationship with you for

example becomes my only self
then I've got a problem.

Right.

Something else I love in that's
related in an ancillary fashion

to this an idea from recovery is
if somebody else is the problem

there is no solution.

And if somebody else is the
solution you have a problem.

SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.

If somebody else is the problem
there's no solution.

But if somebody else is the
solution then it's a problem.

It's a problem.

And by the way important
distinction it didn't say you're

the problem.

No.

It said it's a problem.

SPEAKER_01: It's a problem.

And and that goes back to
agency.

In the end we are driving our
own cars here.

My life we come into this world
alone we we go out alone I mean

we we we live our own lives it's
a wonderful song by Trampled by

Turtles.

SPEAKER_00: There's yeah alone I
it's I've been like obsessed

with it lately but it starts off
you you come into this world

alone you go out of this world
alone but in the end it's just

you and me.

SPEAKER_01: I love that.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah so go go give a
quick listen to that.

Kenyon let's talk about what
this feels like from the inside

when when codependency is
happening what that internal

experience feels like when this
is just not when it's not

working so that people know what
to maybe look for or if they

experience these feelings like
to say hey maybe just question

it.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah as you
mentioned earlier I think you

know like if they're happy I'm
happy if they're not I'm not so

relief when the other person is
in a good mood and absolute

fear, dread, loathing when
they're not dread is one of my

favorite words.

SPEAKER_00: Dread is great.

I think because it it I I just I
love all that existential stuff

but dread is it really because
it mixes a bunch of feelings for

me.

When I think of dread I think it
it it's kind of a it's one word

that sums up a few other
feelings for me.

Like fear and like that
anticipation, anxiety but not

like the good anticipation, not
like hey I'm about to like you

know win something it's like no
I'm about this is this is like

oh it's just that's the sound I
want to make is when I feel

dread.

Absolutely like I can't bring
myself to to follow through with

something because there's so
much dread.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah dread is dread
is wonderfully evocative.

Constant monitoring being
hypervigilant reading the room

any room the moment I walk in
where's the danger?

Where's the danger?

Scanning for danger.

SPEAKER_00: Children of
alcoholics have and adult

children of alcoholics one of
the most amazing ways to tell

somebody's had some kind of
traumatic like upbringing I

think is how attentive are they
to every little detail in the

room.

Right.

And to every person like they
walk into a room and they and

and you walk out and they can
tell you where everything was,

what was going on, what was the
feeling in the room like all of

that in an instant.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: In my experience,
there's usually something going

on there.

Or or they've been through some
stuff where they had this this

dynamic set up where they had to
constantly monitor and assess

for somebody else's poor mental
health or substance use issues.

And not just not just alcoholism
and it's not just abuse, but

poor mental health is my parent
going to be okay are they mad?

Is there anger?

Are they passed out?

Are they going to be there for
dinner?

Are they going to show up?

All those questions, right?

We can go through 400 different
questions, but that's always

kind of a tell in my mind.

Absolutely that's the caretaking
that reading the room but the

reading the room the moment
somebody walks in.

You're right.

SPEAKER_01: It's the caretaking
as distinct from caregiving

we've talked about this in other
episodes but caregiving is is is

healthy.

Caregiving is giving caretaking
is actually has like kind of

like a selfish or self-serving
root to it.

SPEAKER_00: It's kind of strange
because you refer to people as

caretakers but they're they're
they're caregivers.

SPEAKER_01: And I think they're
that you know both terms get

used but well a caretaker you as
you mentioned before is like a

for a property.

That's right.

There's a caretaker for the
landscaping yeah a caregiver is

somebody who works in a hospital
that's a human.

SPEAKER_00: Right right that's a
human do working with other

humans.

Yeah.

And so when we do that though,
if there's guilt when you put

yourself first so if you're
doing that and then one day you

say you need to put yourself
first for something say you know

what I I really have to take
care of myself.

I have to go do this and then
there's a tremendous amount of

guilt even in small ways.

Absolutely that's that's another
that's another kind of flag for

how codependency feels
internally.

SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell
and for those who are doing

treatment for their codependency
guilt can be really useful

because often we tell people who
are you know working on their

codependency and trying to to
move past it hey if you felt

guilty if you're if you're
feeling guilty right now it's

probably means you you stood up
for yourself.

It probably means you're doing
the right thing.

It probably means you're taking
care of yourself.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah we talked about
this with people pleasing right

guilt guilt is the first symptom
of withdrawal.

Right.

Right.

And I and and I think it comes
up with boundaries.

It came up with gaslighting it's
interesting guilt seems to be

the withdrawal symptom for
setting healthy limits and

taking back a sense of agency.

SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell
you pointed out something too

about guilt.

It doesn't mean we're doing
something bad necessarily it

does often mean that we're doing
something new.

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell It
means we're doing something new

and it means it feels like a
mistake.

Right.

SPEAKER_01: But it's not and
whenever we try something new it

feels like it can feel like a
mistake.

I'm not doing this right.

I need to practice I watch my
son learning to skateboard and

it's like he's you know I see
that in in in in motion he's

trying new things he's trying to
to Ollie he's trying to go up

the ramp.

He's learning to that he's gonna
fall a lot and you know the more

he falls the better he gets.

Right.

And I think that's the same for
all of us trying new things.

SPEAKER_00: There's this this
vague sense I hear this a lot

this vague kind of feeling of
not knowing what someone likes

or what they want or what they
feel.

It's always like kind of
separate from them.

And it's and and I hear this so
often of just like what are you

into?

What do you want to do?

What are you and people have a
hard time kind of pinpointing it

and it's because their emotional
state rests so much on what

another person is what their
state is.

SPEAKER_01: That they lose their
sense of self.

Try asking a codependent where
they want to go to dinner.

Wherever you'd like what do you
yeah exactly there's a

resentment that comes with part
of the cost of codependency

there's a resentment that that
builds quietly it's really

confusing or it can be what
makes it confusing?

Because the person is saying
well I chose this no one's

holding a gun to my head to take
care of this person.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah I'm choosing to
stay in this relationship I'm

choosing to be here I'm choosing
so it's my own damn fault.

SPEAKER_01: Right and yet why am
I so angry?

Why is there so much resentment?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah why do I feel
exhausted also I think that's

the other part of it is what so
managing all that resentment

which does build and I think
people you know it it it's so

kind of covert it's exhausting.

Yeah it's exhausting trying to
manage my own life and just

manage my own feelings and the
rapid changes throughout the day

and identifying them and not
reacting to them.

Can you imagine having to manage
another human being's emotions

on top of yours?

SPEAKER_01: That's a full plate.

SPEAKER_00: That is a full plate
well you end up giving up yours,

right?

So that's what happens in in a
codependent relations I don't

mean you, Kenya.

No, no I think that's what
happens is that we it's it's so

overwhelming the plate is so
overful that we end up giving up

any of our needs and then we're
exhausted trying to manage

another person's needs and then
but on paper it doesn't look

like that.

It's like well I'm showing them
so much love.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah I love this
person.

I'm married to this person or
this is my child.

Well that's confusing.

Right.

A huge I think component of that
exhaustion too is

hypervigilance.

And if we talk about like how
this affects our bodies if

hypervigilance is our baseline
and it often is for the

codependent person, you're
always scanning for danger.

As you said, you're walking into
a room you're you're you're

looking with you you're you're
you're clocking everybody's

vibe, everybody's mood, where
everything is, you're holding

your breath a lot without
realizing it.

SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.

You're or you're breathing
really, really shallowly I hear

that from people all the time.

I I do I was I didn't take a
breath.

Right.

Just I'm reminded of uh you're
talking about all the the body

scenes it reminds me so much of
the fight or flight freezer fawn

back again.

Here it is it's at the root of
every episode.

Somebody's gonna call me and be
like dude you got to stop.

Yeah but seriously the the
anxiety response those those

sympathetic and parasympathetic
uh states so the holding your

breath you don't even realize it
and then that physical sense of

relief when the person leaves
the room.

Oh I know that one followed by
guilt though because when when

they left because you're feeling
relief like how dare I actually

feel better that they're not
here and I don't have to be on

how many times do I hear from a
person who's working on their

codependency in therapy am I a
terrible person?

SPEAKER_01: Am I a terrible
person for that?

And it's like the moment they
start standing up for

themselves, the moment they
start leaning into their own

agency.

Yeah.

Immediately that's the question
oh am I a terrible person?

Hypervigilance it's you know we
can go on and on about it.

It means your nervous system is
always scanning for danger.

Will Robinson danger Will
Robinson always watching for

what might be potentially coming
down the pike.

So in a codependent dynamic that
scanner is always focused, laser

focused on the other person.

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell
There is going to be a very

distinct line for the people who
understood your Will Robinson

reference and the people that
don't it's basically going to be

nobody understands my Will
Robinson and that's I'm totally

okay with that.

That's okay.

Love it embrace it.

Right.

SPEAKER_01: Just be you Kenyon I
wasn't scanning for scanning for

relevance or approval.

I was not scanning for relevance
or approval.

Trevor Burrus I approve so
that's enough okay so let's move

we could talk about this all day
again as I mentioned let's let's

let's talk about what actually
helps when it comes to

codependence yeah how do we deal
with this what what what what do

we do when we're kind of like in
this in this space I always say

awareness before action.

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell I
like that I like that tell me

more about awareness before
action we always want to skip to

like just what's the quick fix?

SPEAKER_01: How do I fix this?

How do I fix it?

How do I change this?

I'm not gonna change if I don't
know what the hell I'm doing and

when I'm doing it.

So just notice hey did I just
reorganize my whole day around

you know my partner's whim mood?

SPEAKER_00: Or what I assumed
their whim or mood would be.

SPEAKER_01: Ooh even better.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

But but just notice it what was
happening what was my did I have

a plan before that happened?

Before everything got sort of
thrown out of whack?

But just like being aware we
really are I mean it's a fact.

We're not going to be able to
make sustainable change or

growth before you know that
action isn't going to happen

before awareness.

SPEAKER_00: This is like the
definition of therapy.

It really is like how many
people are like I just need this

change.

I need this change what do what
do I do?

How many times a day do you gas?

What should I do?

What should I do?

What should I do?

Just notice just notice the
pattern before we fix it.

Because if we if we notice it,
we have awareness of it, we get

to start really reflecting on
how many different ways it takes

place and how it takes on a life
of its own and where it kind of

creeps in in other situations.

So I I love that Kenyon I love
the the awareness before action

I think w one of the ways I I
really love to address any of

these things and I I tell people
this all the time look at where

your feet are.

SPEAKER_01: Locate yourself.

SPEAKER_00: Yes liter but
literally look at your feet.

When I tell people that I'm like
look at where your feet are like

oh yeah in in my life I can no
no no really actually take a

moment slide back in your chair
and look at where your feet are

because it it helps you stop it
helps the cycle stop it helps

all the thoughts everything and
you're just checking in on

yourself.

And from that you say okay my
feet are on the ground maybe

you're sitting maybe you're
standing maybe you're barefoot

maybe you're not it brings you
back to the present and you're

no longer in past or future
thinking.

I love that and that and that
really helps you to identify

what you feel right now and you
can separate from what other

people are feeling.

And that's that's I think that's
actually really good practice

for every day even if we're not
dealing with codependency

issues.

It's it's really that's a really
good practice just consistently

checking where your where your
feet are, locate yourself.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely remember
that we have a body that's all

the the body based stuff that I
love to do with dance movement

therapy too.

It's it's like how do we get
back into our bodies?

Right.

SPEAKER_00: Well so we can
there's a couple things we do

when we're locating ourselves we
can journal we have therapy

right we have creative
expression anything that can

make me separate from us or
other more visible.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

To to reinstate selfhood I think
is what you're talking about

there.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely and and
again like let's go easy on

ourselves.

This takes time and it takes
practice.

Absolutely if you're not in the
habit of remembering that you

are a distinct person in a body.

You talk about this all the time
not even just in the context of

codependency, but tolerating
discomfort.

SPEAKER_00: This is the biggest
struggle in existence right now.

I think I think if if somebody
were to say what's the thing you

see that everybody's really
having a hard time with it's

this practicing sitting with
discomfort.

We are incapable of of
tolerating anything

uncomfortable right now.

More yeah more so than everyone
every age every demographic it

is just we can't handle it.

No.

SPEAKER_01: And discomfort shows
up in a lot of different ways it

can show up as like boredom
right I can't tolerate being

bored be bored.

Yeah be bored.

Try explore being bored if
you're waiting online don't just

take out your phone.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

So we have to tolerate
discomfort and especially in

working in in kind of dealing
with codependency we have to we

have that means letting someone
feel what they feel without

stepping in to fix it.

Oh man, this is this is one of
the hardest things as a

therapist to do.

How often do you sit across from
somebody or in a conversation

and you're hearing so much you
know heartache or pain or you're

watching them kind of like with
destructive behavior, any of it.

And you might have some really
solid suggestions or or like hey

just you want to help.

Totally but sometimes you it's
better to not it's better to

actually sit with it and not
actually fix it, soften it,

manage it.

But as a family member too, it's
like yeah we have to other

people have they have to walk
their path.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: It's not on us to
fix other people's issues.

It's not on us to fix our family
members' issues.

SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell by
arguably by by doing that by

obvious by always ensuring a
soft landing that's part of

enabling too within the language
of recovery.

SPEAKER_00: That's right.

SPEAKER_01: You talk about you
don't want to prevent somebody

from hitting their bottom.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And the context for
that is you know if somebody has

a substance use disorder or
another maladaptive behavior

that's addictive.

You want them to actually face
the consequences for that

behavior as opposed to just
cleaning up their mess because

you're so scared for them.

If you continue to do that,
that's enabling and they never

really learn the lesson.

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell
Yeah and we're not we're not

withdrawing our care for someone
we're withdrawing the control.

SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell
We're withdrawing control.

Control is the drug of choice I
like to say for the substance of

choice for the codependent is
control.

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell is
the drug of choice for many.

Yeah.

Yeah but you're right it's it is
the other thing is rebuilding

our own lives literally like
literally not figuratively

literally identifying things
that are only yours.

You can identify a new
friendship, a practice like you

know maybe it's going to the
gym, maybe it's meditating,

maybe it's yoga, maybe it's
photography I don't know bird

watching I don't know we're both
men of a certain age bird

watching seems to be like a
really good individual birding

they call it birding.

Sorry not bird watching.

Birding birding and then you
know the other thing and

obviously what we always kind of
push for is get support just

nothing nothing moves in
isolation.

We don't move in isolation.

We need in that's individual
therapy you talk all the time

about Al-Anon, Naranon 12 step
support groups there's you

mentioned before we were before
we started recording today, you

told me there was codependence
anonymous codependence anonymous

yeah yeah tell me about that
it's almost like a there's a lot

of crossover with with Al Anon
and ACOA and Naranon.

SPEAKER_01: But yeah I mean it
it's codependency being the

central conversation for those
kinds of support groups and

isn't necessarily while
codependency is often as we

mentioned before a symptom part
and parcel of substance use

disorders, you know,
codependence anonymous is not

limited to that context.

No.

It's anybody who's felt
themselves codependently tied to

another person, who's had that
kind of a relationship with

somebody, whether or not the
person is an addict, quote

unquote addict or

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Right.

Well, this is again this the
codependency was a term that was

was born from addiction
research.

But I think what we see is this
is actually it is a re a

relational phenomenon.

SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell
That's exactly it.

SPEAKER_00: And so the pattern
develops in relationship, right?

We we the codependency kind of
it develops, it expands in a

relationship.

We need relationships to heal
too.

And I think that that's the the
takeaway out of this, and that I

I I love this idea.

We are relational beings.

We can't get better in a vacuum.

We can't get better going away.

The program that I had I had
worked for, last community-based

program, Alan Horn, you know,
it's a program for assertive

community treatment.

In New York.

And in New York and in Boston
and Arlington.

Unbelievable program.

That was one of the core
messages from Dr.

Allen Horn was people don't get
better in a vacuum.

They don't get better being
sequestered and sent away from

people.

You have to get better in your
community.

You have to get better in
relationships with people.

So we look at where do you find
those healthy relationships

close to you, close to your
tribe, to your group, to your

culture, to your your home.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: I think that's
that's such an important part of

this.

So the pattern develops in a
relationship.

We can we can change that
dynamic and insert healthy

relationships to to help improve
that.

Totally.

SPEAKER_01: That's why groups,
I'm a huge proponent of groups.

Because I think I've seen people
get better, even in

peer-to-peer, you know, just in
in support groups.

Yeah.

And the killer here, the irony,
is that often the maladaptive

behavior, whether it's
codependency or substance use

disorder, the impetus from that
maladaptive behavior is for us

to isolate.

We feel shame, we don't want to
connect with other people, we're

frightened, we're exhausted, and
so we want to withdraw.

And that actually exacerbates
the symptoms and makes the

condition worse.

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell
All of these things that shame

shame is that dark, warm
environment that you talked

about before, where like all the
bad things grow in the

environment of shame.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: And most of these,
most of the things we talk about

often breed a feeling of shame.

SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell They
really do.

SPEAKER_00: Shame is I am a
mistake.

That's that feeling.

Guilt is I made a mistake.

SPEAKER_01: Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: That's a
differentiation.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Can you just to
close today, I want to reiterate

because I think we touched on
this a few different ways,

right?

Within the mental health field,
within interpersonal

relationships, with the
families, codependency is not a

character flaw.

It's not a weakness.

No, it's not this sign that you
love too much or you're you just

care too much for this person or
that you're there's something

wrong with you.

This is this is serious.

It's a pattern that made
complete sense at some point,

probably long before the
relationship you're currently in

where like codependency is
showing up.

Right?

This is this is something that's
been steeped in survival and and

just in trying to minimize some
kind of pain in the past.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

And the work here, if we're
gonna work on our codependency

issues, it's not to stop caring.

It's not to become this
calloused being.

No.

The work is to it's it's to
build enough of yourself back,

enough agency that you have
something to give from.

We always talk about this, like
putting the oxygen mask on your

own face before you put it on
somebody else's face that you

want to take care of.

If we're really gonna give
something of value to other

people, if we're really gonna
care well for other people, we

need to be giving from our
abundance.

If I'm borrowing from my
principle rather than my

interest to take care of you,
and I'm you know self-negating,

self-abandoning, I'm not gonna
have anything left to give.

SPEAKER_00: That's right.

SPEAKER_01: It's not I'm not
gonna be of any use to anybody.

SPEAKER_00: No, and that's not
selfish.

Holding on to your, as you said,
your principle rather than your

interest, right?

Holding on to whatever's in your
in your bucket, that foundation.

You need that.

The good stuff grows out of
that.

So you hold on to that, and then
you can you can harvest whatever

comes off of the top for other
people.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: How's that?

How's that for How's that for a
closer?

How's that for a closer?

Harvest what your soil you know
uses.

SPEAKER_01: Hey, I live I live
in the country now.

I am all for the agricultural
metaphor.

SPEAKER_00: That that deep
Connecticut country.

SPEAKER_01: I love it.

Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

There's a stop and shop five
minutes away, but I still feel

like I'm in the country.

Thanks for listening to Lumen.

If today's conversation
resonated with you, we encourage

you to follow, review, and share
Lumen with anyone you think

would appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00: We'll be back soon
with another conversation

designed to bring a little more
light to the human condition.

Thanks.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

And I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW.

Until next time, take care of
yourselves and each other.

Lumen is for educational and
informational purposes only and

is not a substitute for therapy,
diagnosis, or treatment.

If you're experiencing a mental
health crisis, please contact

local emergency services or a
trusted mental health

professional.

I'm Chris.