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Explore how the social construct of race and racial oppression operates at multiple levels with a rotating focus on different social systems. Connect with Austin-area justice movement organizers and everyday people with relevant lived experience to lay out historical context, current affairs, and creative possibilities for a liberated future.
Love song. We in the love song. Travel the world sharing your time with the young and the old and the rich and the poor. The conversation, that'll move your soul. You got a love song?
Speaker 1:I got a love song. We in the love zone.
Speaker 2:Hey. Hey. Hey, y'all. Stacy Frazier here, host of racism on the levels here on Co op Community Radio. I'm really happy to be here with you.
Speaker 2:I'm really happy to be here in the studio today with my friend Sabrina Phillips, and it's been a while. It's been about a year. Right? It's been that long, really?
Speaker 1:I think so. That's unacceptable.
Speaker 2:I mean, always open for cool cohosts. So, you know, if you wanna be more regular with me on this, although I I hesitate to put anything else on your plate. So greetings, y'all. I actually moved to every other month for this show. In addition, I host nonviolent Austin radio hour, and that's the first Thursdays of the month.
Speaker 2:And so given those two shows and given my my, requirements as mother, which is another area of our lives that we, we connect with each other on deeply. So, yeah, I'm I'm really happy to have this conversation on the air and share with the listeners what you've been up to over the past year because I feel like this year has been jam packed.
Speaker 1:It really has felt like that. It's felt supersonic speed. In in in in a good way. In a good way. Like I said before, I've had to keep reminding myself, I asked for this.
Speaker 1:Like this is something that I asked for, this is something I wanted, and I, you know, I still do. I'm just learning so much more about how to manage myself in this process too.
Speaker 2:Aren't we all? And I mean, I suspect that even the most
Speaker 1:with
Speaker 2:it, organizational hack, life specialist podcasters out
Speaker 3:there
Speaker 2:are also trying to just get by and wing it. Yeah. That's my theory.
Speaker 1:Let's say that, yeah. Because that's not me, but yeah. Why should I say that?
Speaker 2:So we connected initially and still are grounded. I know as we're moving through the world, both of us, in our purpose to bring about an equitable, humanized society and life for for every single person, every living being, I will extend that to. And art is one of those mediums and also one of those reflections and one of those, portal openers, in my words, to to make that happen. So, yeah. So where do you where do you where do you sit today, one year later, on equity through art and your practice?
Speaker 2:And maybe explain for to the listeners, like, what what equity through art is in case they missed our last show.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Equity through art has been something that I've been thinking about for many, many years. So my practice started over twenty years ago as a teacher in The UK and then moving through teaching in The Middle East and in Thailand and different spaces. And during those at that time, I really started to think about how can I catalyze art to be a space to talk about equitable, subjects for students and adults and for myself as well? So it's been a long journey.
Speaker 1:Once I moved to, Austin fourteen years ago, I was able to work at a local museum here. And during that time, I saw some students outside. It was a fourth grade group, and they were all outside and chatting away. And when they came inside, they, started speaking English. So they were speaking Spanish outside, and they started speaking English when they came into the museum.
Speaker 1:And what I noticed was that the space itself felt like it their linguistic identity was no longer welcome, that they somehow in inherently had to switch, had to code switch right there in that moment. And it made me think, how do we transform public spaces like art museums? Public art space, we should all have access to it. However, if something about you isn't feeling like you belong in that space, how are you supposed to how are you supposed to be there? And what's so great about looking at art and being in art museums is that you're in the presence of stories all around you.
Speaker 1:Historical stories from absolutely everywhere. You can go way back to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago to to the present day. Yet, if we're not all allowed to have access to those stories, how are we supposed to learn about who we are and where we came from, where we're going? And it's just this beautiful space, and I've I've been seeing it over this whole year of people coming in and almost time traveling through the medium of this art to have conversations with artists and the subjects within art within the pieces and really learning about themselves. And so this past year, as I've been sort of expanding this work and bringing more and more people to the museum to see and the people that I'm bringing are teams.
Speaker 1:You know, they're they're organizations. They are teams who work together. They are boards, board retreats, things like that. Lawyers even, different nonprofits, organizations that are coming and they're learning so much about themselves when they have access to these spaces where they're thinking, wow, I didn't know that happened in the Great Depression. Hey, hang on a minute.
Speaker 1:That's still happening right now. And so it's, you know, they're looking at these artworks and making these connections through time and it's really beautiful to see. And I've learned that the application is far wider than I thought because so many people are wanting to have these conversations, and they are afraid to know to have these conversations anymore. Where do you go to speak about equitable spaces or even aspects of belonging? As something as simple as just where do I belong?
Speaker 1:And the word itself belonging has, know, been so weaponized that it's it's become, you know, a a space of fear to even talk about where you belong. And so I'm finding that, you know, all these people are coming to me and saying, hey, we need to have conversations and we don't know how to or where to anymore. This is this is the way forward. Like, looking at these artworks is that space to do it because we are circumnavigating a lot of red tape to be able to have these conversations in beautiful, beautiful ways.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yes. The the spaces in which we are having frank, honest, truthful dialogue about oppression and racism, which is the focus of this program, is closing, it's shrinking, and we're seeing that in legislation and we're seeing that in policies and we're seeing that in, abuses of power that are requiring creative approaches to continuing having these conversations. And I think that your model is lovely in that way, in that, it's a double layer. Right?
Speaker 2:It's it's it's having using art, using creative forms of expression as the conduit to have these societal conversations. Yeah. And your approach to having these facilitating these, curating these spaces is creative in and of itself. Yes. Just super rad.
Speaker 1:It's super creative. For example, we just had so we had a cohort experience as well as bringing all these teams through. I'm also building cohorts of people that come through. So community members that come together across sectors, and they come together and they spend a whole day with me, not just, like, you know, three hour session, but a whole seven till nine day, you know, long day.
Speaker 2:Shout out Mimi Styles, shout out brother Robert Tyrone Lily, shout out Chaz Moore. Many of
Speaker 1:these folks
Speaker 2:have been on the show.
Speaker 1:Many many. And it's Community. Been Yeah. It's been so and, you know, I've been pushing their creativity. So as well as being able to have these amazing leaders from across the city come and have these conversations, you know, I'm also challenging I don't know if you've seen the photographs of Mimi Stiles in full newspaper costumes Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because And Terry Mitchell. Yes. Because we talked about what is it that leaders need. Like, you could dress a leader, what are some of the things that you think that they would wear? And we talked about armor.
Speaker 1:We talked about how we have to armor up as leaders of color and how, you know, what that really looks like. How do you invoke that sense of royalty inside yourself whilst also having to battle against everything that's coming at you? So, of course, we created newspaper costumes right there in the museum, full on armor, you know, that was beautiful, that had elements of of regality and also elements of of protection.
Speaker 2:And also knowledge.
Speaker 1:And knowledge. And, you know, they they created these beautiful costumes that we walked through the museum and sort of stood in front of the artworks that inspired those those creations. And so, yeah, it's as well as having that that dialogue and that space, it's also, as you said, a space for creation as well, just having another another way to access. And what I've learned is is that people are really responding to an abstract way of thinking. So it's not just, okay, what do you need as a leader?
Speaker 1:What would that wear? It's like, okay, know, let's actually fashion it. Let's actually make it because it's one thing to internalize and keep it all inside your body and this is what I'm thinking about but to sort of externalize all that thinking and feeling and put it into something that you can wear and walk around. And and again, those spaces that I said said, you know, I opened with saying that these spaces are not necessarily a place of belonging. Yet here we are taking up space in full costume and armor in these spaces, externalizing all that internal struggle and then showcasing in a really beautiful creative way.
Speaker 1:And what I've learned from people are telling me that just that action of taking it from the inside to out and making that something creative. It's not really about the product itself, it's about the creative process.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And that act in itself has led to so much inner transformation. So I didn't really know going into this work how transformed people would feel afterwards or how, you know, I thought perhaps I knew that it was going to bring cohesion within groups because they get to hear each other say things in new ways. But the inner personal transformation that, you know, a lot of my cohort members say has lasted months afterwards and are still processing and still unpacking to me is showcasing or showing me at least that there is something much larger than I'm even able to grapple with currently going on here. There's something about this model that is really transforming lives in the way that people are thinking in terms of their mental health and their inner ways of thinking and knowing about themselves.
Speaker 2:The word embodiment came up for me as you were describing this experience and and also getting tactile, getting physical with materials versus statically looking at a piece of art and then intellectually discussing it. What role does embodiment and texture and sensorial experiences have in your process?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, the the newspaper costumes is just one example of that. You know, we're also making we're also doing poetry and journaling and writing. We're getting up. We're involving movement in our bodies and breathing.
Speaker 1:You know, we can over intellectualize. And my therapist will will say that I do this all the time. I over intellectualize everything because I almost I'm trying not to connect to it too much because it's so hard. When we're talking about generational trauma or mental health journeys or addiction or substance abuse or we're talking within the context of our work and our leadership, We're talking about toxic workplaces. These things are really, really difficult.
Speaker 1:And actually, know, maybe I don't wanna connect with it. Maybe I maybe I wanna feel a little bit more removed. And so I tend to over intellectualize everything. But the process of making and this tactile embodied way of looking at art, so having that conversation and then responding to it in a personal way and then moving it through your body in whichever kind of way allows you to sort of have that internal connection and allow you to feel things in ways that perhaps could sort of unlock or bypass some of that intellectualism that you're you know, we're sort of more prone towards because it's safer.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, dominant. White supremacy culture is, you know, it but there's there's definitely some you know, there is a reason that intellectual knowledge, the intellect has been given status over other ways of knowing.
Speaker 1:A 100%. I mean, I struggle that I struggle with that in writing my own PhD right now. There's so many times where I want to just give up and just be like, well, see, I don't wanna add to add to the patriarchy here and, you know, get involved with but, know, I also have to work the system. Exactly. I always have
Speaker 2:to do that. We're we're on a radio show. We're talking to people through radio and you know, this is this is part of me. Sometimes I feel like I am the, you know, no disrespect to Adi Cornish you know someone from NPR who's you know, very, use our words and we're articulate and you know, that doesn't give a lot of like for, that's not very conducive to sitting in silence together. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Breathing together. I know. Moving our bodies together.
Speaker 1:Just feeling. Just I mean, basic feeling.
Speaker 2:Feeling human in a human body. Right?
Speaker 1:Is it is more it is so hard to feel things. It is and it's getting increasingly harder. Yeah. Because I've I I'm definitely finding that I wanna turn it off in so many different spaces.
Speaker 2:So I wanna come back to that in just a moment. But if you are just tuning in, you were listening to Racism on the Levels. I am here sitting with Sabrina Phillips of Equity Through Art. And we're gonna play a couple of community announcements, and then we'll be right back and pick right up on that.
Speaker 1:Hornsby.
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Speaker 4:We're bringing vinyl to the people. More information at coop.org or follow us on socials at co op radio.
Speaker 2:Thank you for tuning in to Racism on the Levels. I am your host, Stacey Fraser. Pronouns are she and they, and I am sitting with Sabrina Phillips, Equity Through Art. And for the first quarter of the show, we recapped what Sabrina has been leading groups, team teams, organizations, community leaders in a cohort style through art in are you just in one location still? Are you leading the experiences?
Speaker 2:Or
Speaker 1:I'm not actually. Yeah. I've been doing them in different spaces because I don't want to be I don't want to necessarily be pigeonholed into one space, and I also want to be more out in the community too. So I've been using the, the art galleries at the Austin Community College too where I work at. So I mean, they have I mean, lots of people don't even know they exist.
Speaker 1:There's a beautiful art art museum there and art gallery there. And recently, we did, they had an exhibition on gun violence, and we were able to bring, a couple of cohorts there to have conversations. And that was very affecting, very deep, quite difficult. The artwork was incredible and, had people, featured from around the community and also students as well and staff members. You know, it was a real conversation about people who had been affected by gun violence, who had seen it, who had you know, who are proponents of having guns.
Speaker 1:You know, it was just a very interesting conversation to have. But, you know, again, when you are sitting amongst artwork that is speaking this very loudly without words, you know, you're sitting there and it's it's almost shouting at you, these artworks, there is nothing else you can do except feel it.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And that's the that's the piece again about these works of art. They require you to feel. You cannot enter into a conversation with artwork and just sort of have a meh attitude because if it if you do, then it's not really the artwork isn't really doing its job. And, yeah, it's great to have an aesthetic experience only too. But in the in the context when we're looking at artwork that has some kind of social conversation, these artworks really, really were shouting at us, and it was it felt imperative that we respond in some way.
Speaker 1:And the way that we did was to really sit with it and feel it because nothing changes unless we do.
Speaker 2:I think it was on your website that I read that people go and and look at, on average, I think it's eight seconds Yeah. Per piece of art in a in a museum. And so this is a good counter to that.
Speaker 1:It is. When in the research shows eight seconds. Eight seconds to look at a work of art. These works of art could have taken months or years to create and we have eight seconds of time with it. That's like almost seeing somebody.
Speaker 1:Know, if you imagine an artwork to be a person, right, and you're standing in front of them and you give them eight seconds of your time before moving on, you've missed everything. You've missed who they are, what they want to say, You've missed the the crux of their entire being because you haven't spent time. You don't necessarily have to agree. You don't have to like it. You don't have to enjoy it.
Speaker 1:You don't have to agree. But it's about, you know, practicing giving time. If you can't give your, you know, more than eight seconds to a work of art, how do you do that with a real person? You know, how do you do that? And so for us, Equity Through Art, we will look at an artwork for at least thirty minutes, half an hour, which is a which to some people say, oh, that's a long time.
Speaker 1:What am I supposed to do? I was supposed to sit and stare at it. No. We're gonna connect with it. And, know, it just takes a little bit of facilitation to help people have those, But it's a real practice in slowing down and paying attention to someone else or something else outside of you and then relating it to who you are.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And you know, also just you just impressed upon me how your approach and your practice and what you're offering is counter to many of the dominant oppressive beliefs, practices, structures that are in place.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because it's it's counter to the to the sense of urgency. Yes. Right? So that sort of white supremacist sense of urgency, which is quite pervasive, and also, you know, privileges certain ways of thinking, certain ways of knowing and being.
Speaker 1:This is a complete complete counter to that because it's centers your story. It centers yourself. It centers storytelling, personal connection, spending slowing down, spending time reflecting. It's all it's sort of completely counterculture to that. And so in a very large way, the sort of the heart of this work is really to have that counterbalance, to have that rebellion against the system.
Speaker 1:And it's such a joy to do it within the system. Yes. Can tell you. Amen. That being in the museums that in museums that perpetuate these systems, being able to do it in those spaces is a real real pleasure and brings me a very large inner smile.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, I am white bodied, but you layer on to the different systems of oppression, you know, the the the class background that I come from. And, you know, my family didn't go to galleries, didn't go to art museums. And in fact, there's even to this day an element of internal, judgment, because I actually did for many, you know, many thanks to my grandmother who was an adventurous, curious person and spirit instilled that in me to go out and see the world and see different go into spaces that I'm not comfortable in and and now I am comfortable in them, but I wasn't. And even to this day, my family members view consumption of art, contemporary art particularly as snobbery.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that is that shows right there, this like system by design and then staying in line. Right? So so like to to to expand and to open to go into spaces, you you may experience blowback from your communities of origin by stepping out and being brave in that way. Have Oh has that shown up in your work at all?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, and and let's be let's be fair, It is a place of snobbery. It I mean, it can really be. The art market, the art world, the art spaces are hugely snobbish places. They can be.
Speaker 1:But we don't have to be. The viewers who arrive there, the way that we access it doesn't need to be that way. You know, it's a rebellion within the space, the way that we access it. And I found it with my own children, you know. My my my daughter Azaria said this to me just yesterday because I was talking to her, I'm going to I'm actually going to Rome in November.
Speaker 1:You don't know this because I haven't told you. Okay. So I'm going to Rome in the in the It feels like we stay
Speaker 2:in touch. Even if we don't stay in touch, we're we're still in touch on some wavelength.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yeah. But I'm gonna you know, we're talking about, we'll go see the Sistine Chapel and the Vatican Museums and there's gonna be this Caravaggio exhibition that I really wanna see. And I get, eye roll, I don't wanna go to that. I don't wanna do that.
Speaker 1:And it's you know, what is it that is telling her that these are places that she does not wanna go to, that it's not worth her time, it's not of value, it is boring. When her own mother is teaching art, and art history and is completely immersed in this world. What is it that's happening out in Texas education or in the world that tells her that this is not this is not for her. So, you know, when you're saying about you're reflecting on the experiences of your family, it happens, you know, when there's an art professor within the family, it's still happening. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because there's a there is a perception of what it what it is and what it isn't. And I think that sense of snobbery around it is very very large. It's very very much this is not for you or it's old and boring. My son actually said to me, he's like, I like history but I don't like art history. These are
Speaker 2:heartbreaking reactions from your children. I know. Given who you are as a human.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, mama. I I'll be there soon. Rumi's only seven. Actually, my heart's already been shattered many times over.
Speaker 1:I'm I'm embracing being a cheer mom, but it's real, real hard. Real, real hard. But I this is these are the things that they are telling me, but it's telling me something wider about the way that they are learning about the the possibilities of art. And so when he says I like history but not art history, you know, we're talking about he's like, well, for example, World War two. I can learn about all the facts and the tanks and the guns and I can know who did what when and all these dates.
Speaker 1:These are all things that we're they're being taught in school.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm over us learning about war. I think there's many other topics.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yeah. But but what do we learn about it? We learn the facts and we learn the dates. We learn what happened.
Speaker 2:Who the leaders were. Who the winners were. We
Speaker 1:learn the facts, the numbers, the statistics. But I said that's that's your history. Great. Interesting. Art history, on the other hand, is going to tell you the human experience.
Speaker 1:Right? It's the same thing. It's just the human experience that is in partnership with the history that you're learning. So you've learned all this stuff about World War two. Do you wanna see Hitler's artwork?
Speaker 1:Did you know he was an artist?
Speaker 2:There's been plenty of art creative art.
Speaker 1:You wanna actually look at that and see what that looks like because we're gonna get a different human experience. Well, let's look at the artwork of Kath Kath Hollowitz who was creating at that time too. Let's see what that looks like because we're getting a a human experience. So it's all about, you know, it's all about learning. It's just about what what type of learning are you wanting to go for.
Speaker 1:And again that's to your point about this supremacist way of thinking. We're being taught to only understand half the story and forget the human story and the human pieces that are very much far more significant to the overall story. And far more enduring. Far more enduring.
Speaker 2:We will be right back.
Speaker 5:Hi. I'm Brandy Tribble, founder and director of In The Do of Little Things. We provide mutual aid services, teach DIY self sustainability, and offer emergency response among many other things. At present, we're building a tool and native seed library. Check us out at www.inthedew.org.
Speaker 3:Do you want to be informed and learn how to make a difference in the Austin community? Tune in to Co op every Thursday at 1PM for lively and informative talk radio on the Austin Cooperative Hour, a collective of six diverse programs. Our featured shows are
Speaker 2:Nonviolent Austin Radio Hour, Racism on the Levels
Speaker 3:The Austin Common Radio Hour
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Speaker 2:You are listening to Co op Community Radio ninety one point seven FM and streaming everywhere on this beautiful planet at koop.org. I am your host this hour, Stacey Fraser, pronouns are she and they. You are listening to racism on the levels, part of the Austin Cooperative Radio Hour, which you just heard the community announcement. I'm part of a collective here, and that is by design. We have a variety of different angles of the human experience that we cover and approach every Thursday here during this time period, one to two.
Speaker 2:And, my guest today is Sabrina Phillips. And Sabrina is the, has created this lovely powerful offering to our community, which is equity through art. And we are we're oscillating in and out of the pragmatics of what you're offering in the community. Then getting into some of the, you know, the the theoretical undergirding of what we're doing. Not to intellectualize too much.
Speaker 2:I too. Intellectualize.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:If you put a mic in front of me. Like, it's it's really hard to just be really real in my body and my feels and my feelings. So yeah. So let's let's be the change. And on that note, we were just chatting before we came on live about busyness and this for me, this urge to produce and whatever that is, It could be completely worthy and necessary and needed in this world what I am producing, but I have this, I still have this tie of my worth is bound up in my ability to produce.
Speaker 2:And so this is an invitation to to myself, to the listeners, and then also, you know, wanna see how this is sitting with you, this comment about not replicating or contributing to the sense of the problems that have, you know, put put us in this dehumanized place societally. So what are some ways that you are trying to heal while producing this very important body of work? And how does that show up in your work?
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's a good question. It's really it's always funny when people ask me to talk about my own healing because that's, you know, it's easy for me to help and facilitate others in that process. And, you know, I often always forget myself. And I'm sure that's true for many people.
Speaker 1:My healing this year has you know, it's been I'm almost unrecognizable from this time last year. You know, I'm so much more confident in who I am and we know where I'm from and what I'm doing. And because I've been able to really inundate myself in this work that I'm doing. And, you know, this it the reason for that is I had to leave a more a non profit job that was extremely toxic. Extremely, extremely, extremely toxic.
Speaker 1:And I had my first seizure during that time. And I was working working so hard. I was doing two people's different job. I mean this is everything I'm saying is things that people have done and heard. I am sure you've experienced
Speaker 2:this too. Absolutely. And people are doing right now. So if you're in this toxic situation, like
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's it's really really difficult. It's really really hard. You know, when you're looking for other work while you should be doing your current work, that's a big indicator that you do not belong there. I was infantilized.
Speaker 1:I was not taken seriously. The amount the what I knew I could do, and I can do a lot. Right? I can do a lot. I'm very good at what I do.
Speaker 1:And that none of that was taken into account. And I was feeling crushed and crushed and made smaller and smaller and smaller. And I ended up having a seizure during that time. My first one didn't know what's happening. My kids saw it.
Speaker 1:Super traumatic for everybody. And then because you have a seizure, you cannot drive for three months, right? And so, I said to this place of work, I I can't drive. I can't come into work. They said to me, well, it's not a it's not a stay at home job.
Speaker 1:So, see you. You know, it wasn't it wasn't like, you know, there was no support and I was shocked. I was absolutely shocked. I was devastated because I couldn't understand how an, you know, inhuman or how people can be so disposable. You know, you hear about it, but when it happens to you, it made me feel just I was shocked.
Speaker 1:I was shocked. I mean, so I stayed home for three months because I had to. And during that time, I learned what I want and what I don't want, and I had to sit and and really spend time thinking about what it is that I want to spend my time doing. And that was not that was not it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I thought to myself, if I want to put all this out in the world, put my whole self out in the world, all my years of experience, all my teaching, all my travels, all my, you know, intellectualizing, all of my degrees, all of these these life experiences into the world. I'm do it for myself. I'm not gonna do it for someone else. I'm gonna do it for myself, which is why equity through art exists now because I'm pouring all of myself into it. And so while that's great and while that's amazing and it feels far less toxic, I'm also cognizant of am I creating a toxic environment for myself within my own work by overworking, by doing all the things, having to try and be everything.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to market market this work. I'm trying to be the facilitator. I'm trying to figure out how do I create a strategic plan for the next year. How do I even create a business? I'm not a business person.
Speaker 1:I'm an educator. I don't know what you know, it's really hard. But at the same time, because of that amount of pressure that I'm almost putting on myself, am I replicating that toxic environment that I was trying to get out of but putting it on myself and not even realizing it or having language around that. You know, I think that we can create little toxic spaces for ourselves too. So as well as doing equity through art, I'm a professor at ACC and I'm doing my PhD and I'm a parent of three and I'm not even from this country.
Speaker 1:So that in itself has issues of belonging and and community issues within that that doesn't allow me to have a safety net that I can fall back on. Right? Because I'm not from here and it's and that it's alienating in itself. Yeah. So I'm kind of all a kind of all a have in terms of that sense.
Speaker 1:And then if I'm adding so much, so much, so much onto that, it's really, really hard. So I've had to let things go. I've had to learn to just be like, well, I really don't have the capacity for this. I'm gonna have to say no. I'm gonna have to get really good at saying no and yes or I can't take this meeting or hey, you know what?
Speaker 1:I'm actually not feeling well. I'm gonna prioritize that and healing and getting better. Have I felt at the time I felt like I was losing things? I felt like I was losing opportunities. I felt like if I don't do everything immediately and really fast, everything's gonna fall apart.
Speaker 1:And it hasn't
Speaker 2:actually. Right. It hasn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, there's there's still a there's still a a good amount of demand. So it hasn't. I've I've learned through this process of having to let go that there's a the work is always there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thank you for sharing and thank you for being candid because I, you know, I I have a that resonates with me. I have, you know, similar, you know, health challenges and then this idea that, again, like, my my worth that some of my worth is bound by what I am producing and contributing and and reinforced everywhere is the idea of quantity over quality. And to bring it back to to art and equity, this is this is a a hot topic, but it's not going anywhere. The the idea of of content being created by artificial intelligence and, an art being generated through artificial intelligence.
Speaker 2:And I'm curious, and and you're you have children who are, you know, probably consuming this, you know, at this point in their age. What what do you think about art and AI and and equity and how those dance with each other?
Speaker 1:It's so it's so interesting. We I actually have a whole class in in my when I'm teaching at ACC. I have a whole class where we talk about whether AI art even is art. Is it art? Because with the cold conversation is, well, what is art?
Speaker 1:Let's try and unpack that to start with. What what even is it? And is it a form of expression? Does it have to have the human hand involved? You know, where do we find it?
Speaker 1:How do we create it? Who gets to create it? When do you make it? You know, who gets to show it? And then bring in AI and land that on top of the whole conversation.
Speaker 1:It's like, well, now do we include that? Is it a new tool that we just haven't figured out how to use yet in terms of, photography, we could say that. Is that something else? You know, that was a tool, you know, that we had to get to to use to create something else that widely accepted or creating works on iPads or using iPad tools and things like that. Those aren't traditional methods.
Speaker 1:It was just a tool that was introduced and now widely accepted. Is AI art just one of those things that we have not yet harnessed to use as a tool? But it's so fascinating. I don't fall on either side yet. I can't tell you whether it is or is not art.
Speaker 1:But I think the conversation and the debate around AI is so fascinating. What my students are telling me is that they think that art has to have a human hand. It has to have human expression in it. It has to say something about humans. My point to them was surely the person there's there is a person between the AI, you know, the and the production.
Speaker 1:Someone has to type in all of that text and type in all those iterations of what you want. Isn't that the human hand that goes into it? Isn't that the the concept maker? You know, or is it a collaboration between a machine and there's so many fascinating ways of going down these conversations.
Speaker 2:Well, and and one big way that I'd like for us to talk about is through the lens of capitalism. Like, where does capital and commodify commodification and, profitability, where does that fit into? Is either a contributing toxin or, these are these are just me putting in, you know, my own vantage point here to this. But the reason I bring up capitalism is because, you know, there there is and and racism and capitalism are, you know, in inseparable twins. I mean, without, you know, without racism, capitalism, I I think would crumble personally.
Speaker 2:But art and and human expression and AI, the AI machine is powered in large part by profit. And so where does where does profit and capitalism come into this? Yeah. Just to make it even more complicated.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We're not we you know, the art that we have access to has been bought and shown and given a stamp of approval by a curator that has said, this is worth seeing. There's many, many, many works of art that are lying on people's floors or in basements or on your shelf or in a drawer that's not, you know, not seen. Does that mean that it's not as good? No, it doesn't mean that.
Speaker 1:It just means that the capitalist hand hasn't said, you know, this is this is worth looking at. We're gonna buy it for this amount of money. You know, there's a work of art that sold for $18,000 and it is invisible. It is an invisible work of art. You know, in in the same vein as the banana that's duct taped to the wall, you know, it's in in the same vein as those types of things.
Speaker 1:You know, who'd you know, someone has to deem that this is worth paying for. You know, there has to that that so in comes that slumbery piece right there. Right? Mhmm. Somebody has to say, this is worth paying for.
Speaker 1:This is what we need to consume. This is what, you know, is is is worth these artists are worth something and these artists are not worth something. And inevitably, it's not the artists of color, right? Or female artists or female identifying artists. It's not them at all.
Speaker 1:It isn't, and it's so unfortunate. And that's not new. That's not new, which is so upsetting. You look at the the the canon of our history, it isn't it isn't that way. So when you think about the racism and capitalism going hand in hand that whole way, it goes back hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years.
Speaker 1:The artist, the church, you know, who was paying artists to do certain murals or men or white men, you know, or if they want, we don't know about it because again, let's bring in that education curriculum piece in there too. That goes hand in hand with racism and capitalism too. We're not
Speaker 2:being And who gets the credit for the art?
Speaker 1:Who gets the credit?
Speaker 2:Because how many countless people of color painted those classical works?
Speaker 1:So many. There's
Speaker 2:so Without credit.
Speaker 1:There's so much here. There's so much there. There's so much all around us and we don't see it because we're only being told to look at certain things.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and that's it's it's such a missed opportunity but we don't get to change that narrative unless the people that are telling us to look at these images, those that create the curriculums, the the curricula, those that are in positions of power in terms of education, unless those people change, that isn't gonna happen. Unless we include professors of color and women of color in the story of who gets to teach what, what do we get to teach, none of that is going to change.
Speaker 2:People of the global majority, when they are in the seats
Speaker 1:Need to be writing curricula and teaching it. Yes. Particularly particularly in art history, and I will say that until I die.
Speaker 2:Yes. If you are tuning in midway here, we're we're further than Midway. We have about ten more minutes of substantive converse connection time today. You are listening to racism on the levels, Co op Community Radio ninety one point seven FM. For those of you who are streaming and not in Austin, Texas, welcome as well.
Speaker 2:Koop.org. And, this conversation will be archived. I will archive it, and, and it'll be available on Co op's website for a couple of weeks. Serena, we have about ten minutes left, so I wanna I wanna invite us to dwell in, meeting this moment, which feels unprecedented and perhaps it is in our lifetimes. But I have a feeling that this is not.
Speaker 2:And I'm talking about the authoritarianism. I'm talking about the closing and truly the increase in threatening spaces here in this country, in the context of this country. There is this there is this intellectual flight out of of The US right now. There is that is such a place of privilege because the people that are gonna suffer the most in this country are those who have the least resources and there's no fleeing possible. So how can we meet this moment where we are, which is here in The United States in this moment in time?
Speaker 2:And how can we lean on art to get us through this?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's it's so necessary right now. And I and I will say, I do sit in that space of privilege in that I could flee. In that I'm not I'm not American. I don't have I don't have to be here.
Speaker 1:I'm choosing to be here. And well I and I would also say that UK really isn't a best better option right now. So, you know, the I but I I wanna preface that because because I do have that choice and I am privileged. So, I will say that. Art has to be art has to be something that we lean on.
Speaker 1:It has to be something that we look to in this time for that self expression, for that way of of allowing our feelings about this, about all of what's going on to be somewhere. Because if we don't, we are going to blow up inside. Because I'm feeling it. I'm feeling it. Everywhere I go, I'm inundated with imagery and news reports that I'm just like, I gotta turn it off.
Speaker 1:And I've actually, this is the first time that I've actually felt like I actually have to turn it off. I can't I can't handle anymore of it. I don't wanna see it. I don't wanna look at disturbing imagery. I don't wanna see any of it.
Speaker 1:But it is building up inside. It is building up inside, and I'm seeing it in my children too. I'm seeing them also have a sense of nervousness and anxiety that's going on in our young people. My youngest is eight.
Speaker 2:I have a seven year old.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And he's anxious. Mhmm. He's he's anxious. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:You know, are they gonna come for me? I'm brown. Does that mean that I'm gonna get you know, these questions that they're having, where do where do they put all of that? We have to look to art as a space where we can rest our eyes on something else that is beautiful or meaningful or that speaks to a counter narrative. Right?
Speaker 1:Because if we're not hearing it from other spaces, we can find imagery and source imagery. And if you can't find it, I will show it to you. Imagery that is a counter narrative to everything that's going on right now. Just if you can't create yourself and everyone can, if but you feel like you can't, then at least put your eyes on something else that tells a different story. And that's what art can do.
Speaker 1:There are so many great artists that are creating imagery that we can look at that has a reflective pull to it. It doesn't mean that you have to sit there for thirty minutes and have a a, you know, an experience with it if you don't want to, but just put your eyes somewhere else. Yeah. Does that mean does that make sense? Like, just put your eyes somewhere else.
Speaker 1:No. Look up look up from your phone. Stop looking at or if you if you can't look at social media that is about art, you know, just look at something else. And it has to be. It has to be.
Speaker 1:We have to do that. And if we can also add a creative layer to that and if we can also put pen to paper and just doodle, just free doodle, even that is some way No training required. No training required to just For free something. Does yeah. It doesn't even you don't even have to make something.
Speaker 1:It's just the action of moving your hand to do something else. It is going to the feelings, the anxiety that you have inside your body is going to move through your arm, your hand, into the pen, onto the paper, and out of your body. And that's what we need. It needs to come out of your body otherwise you're gonna sit in it and it's going to hurt. And there's research to show what happens in your brain when you're looking and producing works of art.
Speaker 1:Right? The cortisone is gonna go down, the dopamine is gonna go up. All of these things are happening. We have to look at different imagery, and we have to process it through our bodies.
Speaker 2:And when I say make something, I was thinking make dough. Yeah. Make food. Chop vegetables. Like, make you know, I think food is can be art.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You
Speaker 1:know, it Music. Make music.
Speaker 2:Make motion with your body.
Speaker 1:Any of it. Anything you can do that externalizes what's going on inside. That's I mean, even if it's walking outside, walking outside is a work of art in itself. That's you in nature or wherever. That's a work of art.
Speaker 1:It's self expression. Yeah. So that's a work of art. Listening to music, making music, any of those pieces that is about expression, it has to be externalized.
Speaker 2:And there's something about there's something freeing to art. And and freedom is what, you know, a driving motivation for how I consciously move through the world, is to get free and to bring others with me.
Speaker 1:Right. We're not looking for others to give us freedom. Right? We're not looking for a permission or an invitation to freedom. I can just be free by walking outside, And if you can't do that, putting pen to paper or anything and, like, chopping something, making making a soup, like you said, anything.
Speaker 1:All those pieces are freedoms that we can have and are all expressions of ourselves. And because they're expressions of ourselves, they're also expressions of art.
Speaker 2:And that is decolonizing in itself as a notion is to if you're if you were listening earlier about Sabrina's story, which I have been in, being in a toxic organization. Be free in your mind. Don't let it take everything from you. There is still liberty to be had despite the external circumstances.
Speaker 1:Right. And even though even, you know, what I'm saying may sound small, it isn't. It really, really isn't. It's it's the biggest thing you can do for yourself is to externalize the the anxiety inside you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we're winding down. What do you have on the horizon and, how can folks, plug in to equity through art And anything else that you're excited about that you want folks to know about in the community? I have a couple things, but I'll let you go first.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So my the exciting thing that's coming up for me, I was asked by the NAACP to be their featured speaker at their gala event in December. So if you are in attendance, you will hear me speak, and you will also get to see some of these great artworks that I've been speaking about and really thinking about how art can be a primer for deeper conversations so that we can all get into our heart spaces, our vulnerability by just looking at works of art, by just resting your eyes somewhere else, by having those inner connections. So, if you're there at that event, you'll get to see some of this great work in action, and and hear some amazing things. Plugging in, find me, bring your team, bring your organizations to these museum spaces, have these conversations, be a be an organization that pours into your team, that is not toxic, that works against that, and instead wants to have these conversations with your team, bring them to me and we will have these conversations together in a beautiful, meaningful way.
Speaker 1:We can also plug in by joining any of my cohorts. Cohort five is about to go in October and then, the, cohort six will be in December. And please, when you see applications open, apply even if you don't think this is for you or you don't know what it's gonna look like or you don't have the resources for it, there's a conversation that can be had and we can make it work. I promise you, it will be transformative.
Speaker 2:And staying on the theme of art, Austin Museum Day is Yay. Coming up. It's it's it's Sunday, not Saturday? Sunday. Okay.
Speaker 2:Sunday, September 21. You can explore Austin area museums for free if you're interested in seeing, putting your eyes somewhere else besides your Google News Feed. Go to a space. It's free. There is, it's austinmuseums.org.
Speaker 2:We'll have a list of all the, spaces that are open this weekend, but that's happening this weekend. And my comrade here at the station, John Hoffner, he asked that I announce also on Sunday. Sunday is sun day. And what does this mean? It means we are celebrating the sun.
Speaker 2:The event is gonna be at the Texas Capitol from four to 6PM. So after you may go hit up a museum, then, you can join a bunch of Austinites at the Capitol. It's part of a national celebration of solar power and clean energy. And, renewable energy advocates will gather to celebrate solar and energy source that Texans, the country and the world increasingly depend on to power their lives. And there's gonna be a rally, teach ins, activities for kids.
Speaker 2:And it's being hosted by the Sierra Club, Public Citizen, Solar Austin, Parents Climate Community, Sunrise Austin, Third Act Texas, Austin DSA, Extinction Rebellion, and, Texas Solar Energy Society. So for more about that, it's, actionnetwork.org/events/sundayaustin. And Sabrina Phillips you are shining your light and I am delighted to be your friend and basking in that light. So thank you.
Speaker 1:It's so good to see you
Speaker 2:Stacey You too. Y'all wrapping up another hour of racism on the levels. I am going to be back on the air with this show on November 20. And in all things, in all ways, love is the highest level.