Trey Van Camp - Why Is Obeying God So Painful?

Show Notes

Trey Van Camp - Why Is Obeying God So Painful? by Browncroft Community Church

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Peter Englert: Welcome to the Why God Why podcast. My name is Peter Englert. I'm one of the co-hosts of this show. I am here with our fantastic producer, Nathan Yoder. I'm also here with the illustrious co-host, Aaron Mercer, Aaron, how you doing?

Aaron Mercer: Great, good to be on the podcast and always good to be illustrious of course. Thank you so much, Peter. I appreciate that.

Peter Englert: Well, there we go. We exist to respond to the questions that you don't feel comfortable asking in church. We are brought to you by Browncroft Community Church. And today we have a very visible online guest. He's a pastor, he's a vlogger, he'll say a little bit more. His name's Trey VanCamp. And the reason I really love this question, why is obeying God so painful, obey is this oddly archaic word, but it's something that Christians and churches use. So I feel like we're going to just have a lot of fun here in Trey's perspective.

Aaron Mercer: Yeah, no, I think it's going to be a great conversation. Trey, I'm so glad that you're with us today. It's a blessing to have you here. And I'm excited to talk about this question with you, but also would love to learn more about your story, for me and for our listeners. I know you and Peter have talked a bit before, but can you give us a little bit of your story leading up to this?

Trey VanCamp: Yeah, absolutely. What's up guys, thank you for having me on. So my story in a nutshell is, so I'm actually a fourth generation pastor. And so each generation has warned the next not to get into pastoral ministry, but the Lord continues to have other plans. I was raised in the church. My father actually wasn't really a pastor until I turned 12 and then he planted his own church. But yeah, grew up in the church. Love the Lord. When I was 12, he got my family together and my dad said, "Hey, I want you to pray for your spiritual gift because we're about to start a church plant and everybody's going to be involved." And so we literally started, us five, we were the launch team, which is pretty hilarious, just my family. And so I was immediately the chief chair stacker and ran the PowerPoint and did all that kind of stuff.

Trey VanCamp: But every day, every morning, every night I would pray and ask God to reveal my spiritual gift, the same thing that he told me to pray for. And about a year later, by God's grace at a Discipleship Now conference, I really felt a calling to full-time pastoral ministry based off of the passage of First Kings 18. And I still remember that moment. I still have to go back to it today to give me courage to keep persevering.

Trey VanCamp: So fast forward a ton of course, but started preaching a little bit at age 16, went to college for preaching, to become a pastor, did some youth pastor stuff for a while, the associates stuff for a while. And then at just the age of 24, I planted my own church in a movie theater. And so God's been really good to us, but because of my dad's church, I've always been the guy that says, "Okay, let's modernize what we're doing." And so when I was in high school, I was like, let's make a better website. And I just Googled how to make websites and eventually figured it out. And then I started to see people were using videos. And so I learned that, how to edit videos and made videos for my dad's church. And so that was what my plan was for my church, as we launched it back in 2016.

Trey VanCamp: And it's so funny because I had never watched YouTube before. For me, even up to 2016, I had never seen it. And I was actually on Facebook and I stumbled into a GaryVee ad, which is hilarious. And from a GaryVee ad, I found out about Casey Neistat, whom if you don't know who that is, he's a really famous vlogger. And so this was October of 2016. I went, oh my goodness, this is amazing. Are there any pastors doing this? I didn't know you can take the camera and point it at yourself. And I couldn't find many, I imagined some were out there. But one month later I went and bought my own camera and I started vlogging myself.

Trey VanCamp: So for the past five years, the big part of my story now is I do a lot of vlogs. And so I call them Document Treys because my name is Trey. And so it's just documenting my life and it's a lot of the highs and lows. And I know part of our conversation today is some of those lows, that some people would probably say, it's not super wise for me to share everything online. And there's certainly stuff I don't share, but I do think that there's power in just being vulnerable. The gospel message is, my power comes through weakness. That my hope is not in my brilliance or in one successful season after a next, but it's through the heartaches of life.

Trey VanCamp: And so it's been really cool not to waste my suffering in the sense that I have used my YouTube channel to share my story of the two miscarriages that we've gone through, to share the story of almost getting a church building and land and property, and then it falling at the very last minute. And one we're going to talk about today is I almost surrendered everything and moved to California to go to pastor another church. And then that fell through and it's almost like a constant theme at my YouTube channel of, this thing's amazing, oh wait, nevermind, we're going to do something different.

Aaron Mercer: Oh man. Yeah.

Trey VanCamp: But you know, I guess that's a lot of people's lives. I just like to record it. It's therapeutic for me. And that's probably how you guys found out about me somewhere along the way, Peter, just because I make a lot of YouTube videos.

Aaron Mercer: Hey, I know Peter's going to have a good question for you to get even more into the conversation, but before we go deep and go to the heavier stuff, I got to know, so you're in Arizona, right? Is that right?

Trey VanCamp: Yes.

Aaron Mercer: So I have to know what, if you're watching on YouTube, you can see that there's a Michael Jordan Jersey behind Trey and I'd love to know what Chicago, Arizona, what's the connection there? Or you just thinking he's the greatest of all time, right? I mean, is that it?

Trey VanCamp: That's funny. I'm just glad because I thought you were going to bring up my Phoenix Suns who just had the worst day ever a few days ago, getting slaughtered in the game seven. So thank you for not bringing that up.

Aaron Mercer: No, no. That's too fresh.

Trey VanCamp: I know I did. So here I am. But yeah, Michael Jordan, he's the goat. And so that's why. I actually got to go, I was very, very, very young, but the 93 Finals. My Papa has been the season ticket holder for the Suns since 89. And so I actually got to go to the Finals as a little baby. I just have always enjoyed Michael Jordan. I've had quite a few run-ins, I've gone to Michael Jordan camp. That's where I actually got the Jersey and it's all authenticated.

Aaron Mercer: Wow.

Trey VanCamp: When I was 12, he actually told me at Michael Jordan camp that I have a quote, nice jump shot, unquote.

Aaron Mercer: Hey. Put that on the resume.

Trey VanCamp: You know, it is what it is.

Aaron Mercer: Yeah.

Trey VanCamp: Yeah, I know, right? It should be up there. So I've loved Michael Jordan for the longest time. And that's just one of my most prized possessions. I have a bunch of signed Suns jerseys, but I don't know, nothing can take away the goat. So I love the Suns more than anything, I can care less about the Bulls, but Michael Jordan, major fan.

Aaron Mercer: Nice. Nice. So Peter, you guys should play one on one.

Peter Englert: We could play virtually. Maybe we should do you know a podcast for...

Trey VanCamp: Hey, they don't call me Trey for nothing, three point man.

Peter Englert: Oh.

Trey VanCamp: Me all day.

Peter Englert: I love it. I love it. Well, Aaron, going deep on basketball, but let's come back to your story. So speaking of great successes, Michael Jordan telling you have a great jump shot...

Aaron Mercer: It doesn't really get any higher after that.

Peter Englert: It doesn't, it doesn't.

Trey VanCamp: It doesn't, it's been downhill since folks.

Peter Englert: Marriage, kids, downhill.

Trey VanCamp: Don't tell my wife or kids.

Peter Englert: So you've been very open. You landed on this question when you said, why is obeying God so painful? And so I guess, why don't you give just your perspective? We can link in the show to this season where you thought you were going to be a lead pastor of a church in California and it fell through. Why don't you just walk us through that? And then we'll probably have just some follow up questions about, what does it look like to obey God and things like that.

Trey VanCamp: Yeah. So about a year ago now I made a YouTube series about this as well. I kind of decided to take a sabbatical. So I made a few videos explaining my reasoning why, and hoping to get some rest, but also some clarity on my direction. And the weirdest thing happened is the very first morning of my sabbatical, I got a phone call from a very dear friend who said, "Hey, I know you love your church", and ask any church planter, it's the hardest thing to leave your church plant. Metaphorically speaking, it's your baby, right? And so he was like, I want you to consider moving to this other much larger church. And that was really hard for me. My immediate reaction was no way. We're on year six now, about six and a half years in, a lot of growth happens after year seven. And it's like, I've already put so much effort into this.

Trey VanCamp: I'm finally starting to see the church that I had envisioned seven years ago. But to honor him, I said I'll pray about it. And that whole month, it just seemed like the scriptures were coming alive, different phone calls from people who didn't know my situation, just kind of seemed to speak into this. Like, hey, take this next step towards becoming the lead pastor of that church in California. And so it took about four, five months for me to surrender to the idea. And it took about eight months, right before making it official or the process official, it took eight months for me to even get excited about it. I wasn't, but I felt like a Jonah and Ninevah moment.

Trey VanCamp: I do not want to go to California for various reasons. It's just so expensive and all those different things. And yeah, I share some of that story on my channel, but it seemed like God was in it. And so long story short, they were like, "Hey, you're in, we're excited for you. We just have to vote. We're going to announce it to our church this week. It's probably best that you tell your church first so they don't find out through the grapevine." I'm like, "Absolutely." So I tell my church Sunday night say, "Hey, I believe this has been an eight month journey. Here's what it's looked like. It's been really tough, but I feel like I'm actually not serving you if I don't take this next step that I think God's calling me to."

Trey VanCamp: And so it was a lot of tears, a lot of heartache. And that next Sunday I was supposed to preach in view of a call. And that week just kind of went crazy and I'm learning more and more, some of that stuff, nobody will ever know the full story. And that's actually been hard for me because some people really struggle sharing the full story. I struggle not sharing the full story. And so some of the stuff, again, it's so personal, but it can be so misinterpreted. I don't think anything on either side was ill intent. It just didn't work out, but it can be perceived that way.

Trey VanCamp: So fast forward to that Friday, we were already in California getting ready to meet everybody. And we decided, oh no, we're going back home. We're not, I'm not even going to preach in view of a call. So it was really, really painful because I was thinking, wow, God, I feel like I was fighting you every step of the way. I didn't want to do this and now I'm doing it, now I said bye to my church. Now I am on my way. I am in California and then you're like, oh, okay, it's fine. Turn around. And it's like, this would've been great as long as I didn't announce this to my church. And thankfully when I announced to my church back here at home, whom I'm still pastor of today, spoiler alert, but I told them, "Hey, nothing's official until I get voted. I'm your pastor until God officially calls me out." And so I actually wound up never even missing a Sunday.

Trey VanCamp: That Sunday I came back when I was supposed to preach a view of a call, it was my 30th birthday. And I went to my home church and we just kept chugging along. But it's really disorienting, experienced a lot of feelings of rejection, really misunderstanding God, thinking, God, I've spent the last nine months wrestling with you, saying this isn't the right fit. And I have a 10 page document of all of the different interactions I had with people those nine months. Random old mentors calling me saying, "Hey, every time I've been praying, your name comes to mind and the word Trey and transition seem to always come together."

Trey VanCamp: Now you have to hear me. I'm a Southern Baptist and I'm in Southern Baptist circles. That's not normal. We don't talk this way. We don't give prophetic words over each other. You know that's not a very common thing. So it really stuck out. Just several weird stuff like that, always happening. And it feels like the moment I said, all right, I'm in, everything went silent. These God moments are all that's said and gone. It was very strange and I'm only two and a half months recovered from the whole situation. So I don't even think I'm fully healed from it or processed it fully.

Trey VanCamp: I'm doing a lot better than even Peter, when you and I talked about it, when we were kind of walking through what this podcast would look like. I really liked what you said, that I'm walking around, not with a limp, but with a black eye, meaning that I'm functional. But every time I look in the mirror, I go, oh yeah, you're not great yet. You know, you're hurting and that's kind of what it was then. And so I don't even know where I'm at now. I've learned not to really declare how I'm feeling.

Trey VanCamp: It's just moment by moment. I'm clinging to God's grace, but it's hard, right? Because then it's like trying to prove to my church family the truth. I never wanted to leave them. And I hope that they receive me back and they've been so gracious in receiving me, but it's like, God, why do I have to fight through all this stuff and try to earn back their favor that I spent six and a half years building up of their trust, just for this weird detour that led nowhere.? You know? So it's frustrating. It's been really, really difficult to journey through.

Peter Englert: So one of the things that I think's fascinating about your story is we're actually very unfair to each other. So if we feel like God has asked us to do something and to obey and it doesn't work out, we get really frustrated. But I think there's also when we hear from someone else like you, like, I feel like God's told me this, and it ends wrong, I think our immediate, even in a semi-healthy is just skepticism. It's just Trey, did you really hear from God?

Trey VanCamp: Yeah.

Peter Englert: You know, Trey, is this really obedience? And so I guess as you kind of manage that tension that on one hand we can feel like I want to obey God. I want to do what's right. But then on the other hand, we don't always give graces to other people when they experience... How do you manage that tension and how are you kind of changing in that perspective?

Trey VanCamp: Yeah, it is. I feel that, and that's where I'm like, wow, how foolish, was this wrong? Did I hear the wrong voice? And I really filtered everything with, has to be grounded in scripture. And it was. Has to be rooted from godly counsel and people speaking into the gifts that I have. And it wasn't me begging people to say a certain thing. In fact, I was almost begging people to say the opposite. And so that was really difficult for me. But what's the exact question though, I'm sorry.

Peter Englert: Oh, I think it's the, how do you manage? Because if I was in your shoes, I'd feel like, I think I heard from God. I think I did my best.

Trey VanCamp: Yeah.

Peter Englert: But then on the other hand, if you're an outsider, it's like, did they really hear from God? You're talking a lot about, scripture's great, but scripture doesn't always tell us if we should move from Arizona to California specifically.

Trey VanCamp: Right? Totally.

Peter Englert: So in some ways we want to be gracious to ourselves, but we're not necessarily gracious to other people who are trying to figure this out.

Trey VanCamp: Yeah. And that's actually given me a lot more empathy for people who do seem to make mistakes and they seem to have the right intentions. So that's what I've learned is, hey, when somebody else goes through this situation, I can speak from experience. Like, hey, I get it. I think it's a lot of different things. With scripture, it's weird stuff, the night before I told my wife, I'm never going to do this because there's too much opposition. My morning reading the very next day was Paul says, we're going to go to Troas because there's a great opportunity. There's a wide door of effective ministry that's open for us, though many oppose us. And I was like, oh, that's literally what I was saying last night.

Trey VanCamp: And you know, it's just again, I have a list upon list. And I've actually had to fight that. I've had to fight this temptation to prove to people, I'll show you my 10 page document. I'll show you that I wasn't being foolish and you would read this and go, wow, you're right. But I think the whole point too is to go, look God, we don't know how God works. And sometimes God has to convince you that you're going to go here in order to eventually take you there. You know? And so who knows, for some reason, I'm not assuring myself I'm going to figure this out in the next 10 years.

Trey VanCamp: But for some reason, God found it worthy or useful for me to go through this. But that's the whole other conversation of the sovereignty of God, because another angle that I've processed was maybe I did absolutely everything right, and it's what he wanted me to do. But there's the other party, somebody else got in there, something changed. And now everything's different because at the end of the day, God can lead us all to something, but he can't force us to say anything.

Trey VanCamp: And so what if the other party just was like, missed the call and they didn't answer what God was saying or vice versa. So it's really hard for us to determine that. My spiritual director told me this. He says, Trey, with this whole process of discernment and trying to figure out if God's calling me there or not, he kept telling me this. He said, "Trey, the process is more important than the result." And I've had to really hold onto that because he says, "Look, the result at the end of the day, what do we know from Romans? He's going to work all things together for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purposes."

Trey VanCamp: So wherever I land, God's got to use it. So what is this process? And the process was really helpful for me. This process of dying to self, I needed this process of at least being willing to give up my baby. The church is actually today making me a better shepherd, because my identity is found in Christ, not in the church like it was. You can go over and over and over again about like, hey, there's so many ways God's using this. And I think our job is not to declare man, what you did was wrong. You were off. Our job is to pray for each other, labor with each other and recognize that this world is full of chaos. This world, for various reasons, never works out the way that we want it to. And the Bible never promises otherwise.

Trey VanCamp: Our church is going through Ecclesiastes right now. It just says over and over again, life's full of disappointment. Life's full of where you're convinced something's going to happen and then it completely flips. And that's why we need to anchor our faith in the love of God. Being loved by God and no matter where he takes us, it can be a deeper invitation to his love. And when we recognize that, we can be grateful for all the detours, all the, this doesn't make sense because we anchor our hope and our reliance on him and him alone.

Aaron Mercer: This is such a great conversation. And thank you for relaying that and sharing that with us and those listening. I think there's probably a lot of people who can relate in one way or another.

Trey VanCamp: Yeah.

Aaron Mercer: Certainly, there's wounds of the past I think for a lot of people, certainly I'm relating in some ways. And I'm sure Peter has things also and others who are listening, whether it's job or it's relationship. At the end of the day, like you said, God's looking out for us, but community is messy and people are messy and things happen. But I'm curious, so you're two and a half months out of this. So the feelings are still, I know there's a lot of processing and there's probably a lot of rawness still also.

Aaron Mercer: But in that time, I guess I'm asking this question because I suspect that there are other people listening who are in a similar place right now, what are you struggling with most? Are you struggling more with people or are you struggling more with God? Not saying that you're distant from either of them, but the relationship, what are some of the things you're wrestling with, I guess in either case, but I'm curious, where do you feel like there's the most tension for you?

Trey VanCamp: Yeah, in the beginning it was relationship. It was bitterness and a fear that my people won't take me back. So God's been really good to me in forgiving and recognizing that there wasn't ill intentions, it was just confusion and who knows what all was at play there. So I can honestly say the first week, that's what I was upset about. Just the way I was treated, the way I was told one thing and then totally said something else. But I think it was for my good, and I think they did it to protect me.

Trey VanCamp: And again, I don't think I should talk about that anymore than I already have. And so that's been great that God's really used that. What's the hardest part is, I process things out loud, but I have to be very careful who I process this with. Because my church family, if I keep talking about this, they're going to perceive it as I'm not happy to be with them still. And nothing could be further from the truth. I'm so happy to be here. I literally am relieved that I'm here. I just don't understand why I had to go through that whole thing in the first place. That's really the confusion, but I can see it.

Trey VanCamp: I can't use those as illustrations in my messages right now about how God's working on this weird confusion of my life, because it doesn't edify the church. It more than anything, it just says, hey, look at me, poor me. And I don't want to do that. The biggest thing I'm wrestling with now is clarity on God's direction in my life on my calling. That's where I'm at now. Of like, there has to be a purpose to this. So what's the purpose and what gives me joy, what am I called to do? Was that job not even... Did that not fit my skillsets at all.

Trey VanCamp: So I'm 30 now, so I'm entering into a new decade. And with that brings new levels of existential crisis and like, hey, what's my life about now. And that I've never really struggled with before. I think this job has kind of woken me up, or this whole fiasco has woken me up to, I don't have life figured out and I don't want to waste my life. What is this? What is my next step? And that's the fuzzy thing. And I'm actually reading a book, Strengthening The Soul Of Your Leadership by Ruth Haley Barton. It's a really great book that I've enjoyed right now, but it actually talks about the story with Moses and how the people of God left Egypt and that was a great time for them. Although there was some hard stuff, they still felt purpose and they parted The Red Sea and all this great stuff, but eventually they get tired.

Trey VanCamp: Eventually they grumble. Eventually they're tired of manna and she makes the point, that is where leadership steps in. And that is where we have to lean into the presence of God more than ever. And that's what I'm learning, is God intentionally takes us and just lets us wander in the wilderness and that's to build our character, to increase our trust on him, but you can't skip that waiting period.

Trey VanCamp: And I think that's where I've had to find humility and patience in, of like, okay, God, I'd love answers for all these things and I want to move forward. But more than that, I want you. And I think in order to feel more loved by you and into your presence more and to be just about Jesus and Jesus alone, this waiting season is actually really crucial and I can't speed up this process. And so that's what I've had to come to terms with, accepting where I'm at and finding joy in it. Although it still feels like a wilderness period.

Aaron Mercer: I'm so glad that you brought up the book you've been reading through. Because actually the thought that popped into my head was, as you've been processing through this, whether it's through reading that book or scripture reading or maybe something else, I was interested, are there heroes of the faith, or maybe it's just some person from history or maybe it's a fiction, I don't know, C.S. Lewis book or something. But are there characters who you've been able to look at through this as you're processing, why did God make me go through this process, to help you think about it with kind of the end view in mind? Do you have any tips on people other people should be looking at or books other people should be looking at?

Trey VanCamp: Yeah. So that's a great book. First of all, the Ruth Haley Barton book. Another one is the life of Moses and recognizing his journey. Really, every time God does in a leader, it's a birth of a vision and then a death of a vision and then a resurrection of that vision. And so I love that thought, oh hey, we can't skip the death part. And so I think for me there, I'm in this death season, but it's actually, I really feel like I'm on the precipice to the resurrection, to where man, this has got to be way better vision than what I had first intended, what I had first thought of. So I'm really leaning onto that story of Moses and how that season of obscurity was so crucial for him in order to lead his people in a really difficult time.

Trey VanCamp: And I believe God has called me to be a leader. And so I need to dwell in the season of obscurity and confusion in order to lean into him more. I'm trying to think if there's anybody else. I'm trying to make sure not to read myself into these people of the Bible too much, because I was saying like, maybe I'm Jonah and this is Ninevah. And then when I came back, my church family was like, hey, you were just being Abraham and the church is your Isaac and you're willing to sacrifice it. And you know, there's some little bits of comfort there, but it's also, or that's not the story at all. You know? So I don't know. But I think taking some of these things have been helpful.

Trey VanCamp: But I do love reading biographies. I will suggest this, Eugene Peterson. I used to bag on him growing up because it's like, he wrote the message and it's like, that's not a real translation and all that kind of stuff. But then I started reading his books for pastors and it's just, oh, it's been so good for me. And he has this biography, I think his name is Winn Collier, he wrote about Eugene Peterson called A Fire In My Bones or something. A Burning In My Bones, such a great biography of his life. And I've found so much comfort from it. And he talks about those wilderness seasons in his life. But then you could see how it created things like him writing the message and how it created this ministry opportunity for him. And so that biography I've really held onto a lot.

Peter Englert: That book was really meaningful to me too. So I just echo that to the listeners. So where I want to go is, I want to get super practical, because even with this question, I think I mentioned this, obeying is a relatively archaic word. So you might say it if you're a parent and not all of our listeners are parents. If you go to churches, we say it, but it seems more old Testament, like something Moses would say. I keep thinking about the sitcoms that whenever God's mentioned, you see this scene where you're like God, I prayed, I asked and something goes wrong and then all of a sudden it goes right.

Peter Englert: And I just think we live with this assumption that if I obey God, even if I'm an atheist or even if I'm an agnostic, that obeying God should equal the right results or obeying God should equal the right things. And I think our culture kind of believes that. I don't want to necessarily call it a lie, but how would you describe that as you help people that say, hey, everything I've seen, I'm trying to obey God. And even if I'm skeptical or a doubter, but it doesn't always end up the right way. How would you respond to that person?

Trey VanCamp: Yeah, I would encourage with a couple things. That is too simplistic. You don't see that in scripture, where it's like do this and you will get that. And that's actually why the wisdom literature of the Old Testament is really helpful here. The wisdom literature is Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Job. And so Proverbs, I think we're very much a Proverbs culture. In Proverbs, remember they're not promises, but we interpret them as if they are. And so all throughout the Proverbs, it's do this and you will get that. Train up a child in the way they should go, and what happens when they get old, they will not depart from it.

Trey VanCamp: But what about the lady in the church that hears that scripture and goes, I was at church every Sunday. I went every Wednesday. I did everything. I took my kid to Awanas and now my kid's 24 and hasn't been to church for six years. What's up with that Proverbs? So Proverbs is still helpful. It's focused on outcomes and we're a Proverbs culture. What I love about the Hebrew literature is it expects you to read all of it together and hold all of these seemingly opposing views in balance.

Trey VanCamp: So you also have Ecclesiastes. So while Proverbs is focused on outcomes, Ecclesiastes, what we're going through right now as a church family is filled with outrage. It's hey, life is disappointing. Life is hard. Getting rich, that doesn't do it for you. Serving, everything, the Hebrew word is hevel, it's like chasing after fog. And when you go to grab it, now it's not there. You can see it, but you can never grab it. And so I think that's where a lot of people were in the hard season of life.

Trey VanCamp: I love Ecclesiastes because I feel identified with, I feel like, oh, okay. Because Proverbs is very clean, cut, dry. It all makes sense. Ecclesiastes is like, hey, even if you do all that, it might not work out. And so then it's like, what do you... And it's hard, you got to lean into the Lord and really believe all of these things at the same time. But the last one is Job and Job has been really helpful for me. So you have Proverbs focused on outcomes, Ecclesiastes filled with outrage, but then you have Job and he has the faith to outlast. The faith to outlast his critics, the faith to outlast his circumstances, the faith to outlast his suffering. And it's a waiting on God.

Trey VanCamp: And I think we have to hold all those things together. We still believe Romans 8:28. He's going to work all things together for the good of those who love Him. But we have to also know that might mean heaven. That might mean the next life is where things will make sense. And so we have to hold that in a balance. So our job is to persevere. Perseverance of the states is huge and we have to say, okay, God, I'm obeying you not to get something, I'm obeying you because you're worthy of my obedience.

Trey VanCamp: And I actually think that's a really big misunderstanding of grace, is when we think obedience is cliché and you don't need to do it. No. Obedience is a joy. Why does God call me to obey? It's because I believe that he wants what's best for my life. So it's actually the best thing for me to do, to obey and to train my heart to believe that and to suffer, but still stick to the path of righteousness will eventually lead to flourishing. And that's a hope that I've really held onto.

Peter Englert: So a follow up question, one of our listeners, she one time asked me, she's like, "Why doesn't God just tell me exactly what to do?" And this is someone struggling in faith. What would you say to that person?

Trey VanCamp: God's presence is far more important than our progress. So I think what he wants more than us to get that thing done, is just to spend time with Him. And if He just tells us what to do, all right, see you later, we don't have that relationship with Him. So I say this to my church all the time, the Christian life is not about marking off tallies for God. It's about marking out time with God. And so I think that wilderness stage, that long obedience in the same direction, that this process is the beauty of the Christian life, because that's where we know we are loved. Even when we don't know what to do. We are loved when we feel weak. We are loved when we don't have clarity and that's true agape love that gives us meaning and significance.

Aaron Mercer: Yeah, that's good. I just love kind of what you're digging into in so many ways, but I mean, even the idea of that process of obey God being so important and we can't always tell what the outcome of things is going to be. God's not a slot machine where you do something and something's going to happen.

Trey VanCamp: Yeah.

Aaron Mercer: And he gives us a lot of freedom too. Pete knows that I love C.S. Lewis a lot. I'm reading the Narnia books to my kids right now. But there are several times where the characters in the book will make a decision and they might ask Aslan like, "Ooh, could it have done done differently?" And Aslan, who's like the Christ figure says, well, we don't know what would've happened, but at end of the day there's a plan there that Christ is going to make it right in the end. No, I love that.

Aaron Mercer: I'm curious. So you mentioned at the beginning that you have been very active on YouTube and elsewhere and then maybe during this time, maybe before this time too, I wasn't quite sure, but you've kind of paired back some of that sharing. I'm curious, is that related to this? Or is that something, kind of a broader thing you're wrestling with? How does that tie into this whole journey that you're on right now?

Trey VanCamp: Yeah, when I look at the life of Jesus, I see him retreat and then return a lot. It's this rhythm of retreat and then return, solitude and then ministry with a bunch of people. And so I think it's just the awareness of the season that I'm in. I just finished writing a book. And so a part of that was just the task, the labor of doing that meant I couldn't be online as much because I had to give my mental energy towards writing. And that's a deeper work that you can't just superficially finish. And also just wounding. I think if we lead while we're wounded, we wind up wounding other people. And so I think part of that is okay, instead of transmitting this pain, I need to transform this pain. And so I need to be a little bit less out there because I need God to do something in me.

Trey VanCamp: So I think it's that constant, when Jesus sent out the 72, when they came back, he immediately was like, let's go. I think it was in Mark 6. Let's go in solitude, let's retreat for a while. I don't even want to hear about how it went. You need some time away. And I think that's the rhythm. And for five years, man, I'd never rested. I was just, boom, boom, boom, new video, new video.

Trey VanCamp: And it was a great time, but I'm actually stepping into another season where I'm returning and doing a lot more. In fact, I have said no to a lot of podcasts. The last, again, eight months, however long this whole journey has been, just kind of processing where my life is going. And so this is one of my first podcasts back to having some conversations again. So yeah, I'm kind of easing my way back into the fold. And I think that's just the awareness. Where are you at in the season of life, knowing you needed time to rest, you also needed time to get going.

Peter Englert: So I want to come back to something in your story because I followed you and I think I want to come back to your wisdom from your experience. So if people aren't aware of kind of church culture, usually a pastor doesn't announce that they became a new pastor till after the vote and you decided to make this conscious decision. Hey, I want to tell my church family, even though it's not official. And I think some of our listeners can understand, there's intricacies if you work in the marketplace of, I'm in the final interview, it looks like I'm going to get the job. I want to tell my boss now, and you can make arguments either way. And one of the things that I've appreciated about you that I think is fairly important for our listeners is you felt like you did what was your core values, what you felt like God was doing. But you still went through criticism.

Peter Englert: So I guess my question to you is, it wasn't a matter of, I'm going to do me or you do you, it was a matter of, you took a big picture of your life, you looked at the church and you still got criticized for that. How do you process through criticism even in your heart of hearts and maybe you've changed since we've talked, you said, "I know I made the right decision, even though not everyone else would make that decision." How are you processing that criticism and trying to redeem it as opposed to feeling like, people just don't understand me?

Trey VanCamp: Yeah. I was very encouraged when I realized the only people criticizing that decision were people who were not a part of my church. And so that was helpful too. Like, hey, this is how I shepherd my flock and my flock felt cared for. So that's number one. So who cares about Johnny from Minnesota, who is also a pastor and thinks I did it wrong. Okay, Johnny, you don't know my situation. The other thing is, a pastor told me this the other day, he said, "Trey, God will tend to take care of you. There's going to be a lot of different journeys up and down, but what you can control are two things, integrity and honor. And so integrity is being the same person always." And so I've always been somebody who's an open book and shares things of what's going on.

Trey VanCamp: And so I think that was an integrity move for me instead of being what I considered in my own process to be, it would be deceiving. And honor, I actually think it was honoring my congregation to say, hey, you aren't just people that I boss around. We're a church, we're a family. And we believe that God speaks to you guys as much as he speaks to me. So I'm going to honor you and believe that by saying, hey, I need you to pray, because my disposition was guys, if this is God's will I need you to pray if it is or not. And if it's not, pray with me that God will make it clear. And so that's a huge part of the process. And my whole job in pastoring, I read it this morning in Galatians, is to form my people into the image of Christ.

Trey VanCamp: And I think them knowing ahead of time was a great opportunity for them to be further formed into the image of Jesus. And so that's why I did it. Also, take all that aside, the advice to not tell your church until after is a pre-social media advice. The church I was going to was over a thousand people, 40 acres, 125,000 square feet, large church. They have a big Facebook following and they were going to announce that week that I was going to come to preach in view of a call. Do you think it's better to honor my people that they find out via me before it all happens? Or, oh my gosh, I found it because people are posting on my pastor's wall saying, hey, we can't wait for you to come join our church.

Trey VanCamp: People don't think and process, this is a social media world now. You can't hide things like before. Everybody's streaming. The service was going to say, this is pastor Trey, who's preaching in view of a call. How do you hide that? And so that's the other part where I'm like, bro, yeah, that was great advice you got in seminary in the '70s. But like it's a new day. So that's the other part that really comforted me, that I did not make the wrong decision.

Trey VanCamp: It's impossible. And so I think that changes the conversation of, I think a better question that I should have processed with that team is, okay, what does this hiring process look like? I need it to be official before I tell my people, but is that possible? I think there's other ways to have that conversation, but I think your church that you pastor now deserves to know before everybody else if you're leaving.

Peter Englert: So one quick follow up to that. And I think this goes along with it, one of the things in our pre-conversation that you said is, your brother-in-law and if I butcher it, forgive me. But he said that there's a difference between authenticity and transparency.

Trey VanCamp: Yeah.

Peter Englert: And you bringing up the social media world, what does that look like? And explain to our listeners, because I'm sure that they're trying to even process, if you go to Miami and you take pictures, it doesn't take people, rocket science to be like, oh, are they on vacation? So I think for you to help our listeners in those situations, how do you be authentic and transparent or what's the difference between those two?

Trey VanCamp: Yeah. I thought it was really helpful wisdom and that's actually in the video that I made when I announced to the world, I never left. And so I made a vlog about it and I think it's my most recent video on my channel. But he had said, we need to be authentic with everybody, but transparent with few. We have to be transparent, but not with everyone. And that was really good. And I know this, if it's a Monday and I'm talking to a pastor, there's a higher likelihood they're talking about wanting to quit ministry and they're exhausted and they're tired and they're like, it is God calling me here.

Trey VanCamp: Now that's cool and I think that's great for a pastor to reach out to another pastor on Monday and be really transparent and say, hey, this is me being real, I don't know if I can do this anymore. A whole other thing to be transparent to your entire congregation that next Sunday say, "I don't know if I want to do this anymore." That's not being a good shepherd to your people unless you absolutely know and you're not coming back. But that puts people through some emotional damage. It creates a break of trust for no reason. So be transparent with, you need people close to you.

Trey VanCamp: I hope that makes sense. So for my situation, I'm going through right now, there are about four people who know everything that happened this past couple month. Everybody else, they just know the highlights. And even that I know it's not the full story, but that's actually been a great lesson for me in Christ likeness, because what did Christ do during the trial, he didn't defend himself. He just sat there and took the beating. And I think there are times, you need wisdom for this, but there are times where you can become more like Christ when you just don't defend yourself. You don't worry about your reputation and you just stay silent.

Trey VanCamp: And so that's where I'm at with some of this. I think I would love, my flesh in me wants to just share the whole story, but then I know actually people will misconstrue it. I want to honor the other church. The other church, I'm intentionally not saying their name. They're a great church. I still fully believe that. So I don't want it to ever come across... People misunderstand things. And so that's why actually, even after this podcast, I don't want to talk about it anymore with that other place. Because again, I want to honor them and I want them to do well. I root for their next pastor.

Trey VanCamp: Again, I never thought I was the right fit. And so when we moved parted ways, I was like, yeah, this is what I thought what we should have done in the first place. But again, it's like, why did it seem like God, I had to make it official before all the light bulbs turned on. So anyways, yeah, authentic with everybody. Be yourself. Don't fake it till you make it. But there are certain deep truths and vulnerabilities you need to hold onto because those are sacred and it can really be deadly in the hands of the wrong person.

Aaron Mercer: So I'm thinking about someone who might be listening to this and every situation is different, obviously. But someone who's listening to you and is maybe up against some sort of critical life milestone type decision. This person, whoever it is, might have been obeying God the whole way, feels like they've been honoring God through all the decisions that they've made leading up to kind of getting towards a final thing. From your experience that you've had just in recent memory and maybe from past experiences too, do you have any tips or advice for someone to think, you know what, I mean, Trey made a decision.

Aaron Mercer: You obeyed God all the way. And right near the end, you said, you know what, I know God does not want me in this place. And you made a decision on that. I know there's always going to be things that are surrounding that, but how can someone be hearing that voice of God to say, you know what, you need to go all the way through with what we've been leading towards or we're at the final point now, maybe it's time to reconsider this. Do you have any tips for someone who might be in a situation like that?

Trey VanCamp: Yeah. It's really, really hard. For me in my process of decision, there was red flags where I said, okay, if these just very few red flags pop up, then I'll really know. And so that was helpful in my decision making of like, hey, I know this is against not first tier issues, but it wouldn't be a good fit. I really hesitate to give that kind of advice because everybody is in such a different life phase. But yeah, when it goes against your principles or you just know it just won't work. So Ignatius he talks about consolation and desolation and that's actually what's been helpful for me in kind of my process of decision making. Where he talks about generally, when you have a major life change to make, you'll have a greater feeling of consolation, you'll have this excitement, you'll have this comfort.

Trey VanCamp: You'll recognize how hard it is, but there's still this stirring of joy and we're going to make this, it's going to happen. Desolation where you just, everything feels bad about it. It just feels wrong. And so his advice when you feel that desolation, it doesn't mean no, but it does mean wait. And so that would be my advice, is don't jump the gun. What's weird is I felt consolation. I felt like, okay, let's finally do it. And it wasn't a quick process. It was eight months, but then it quickly... Again, my story, I feel like confuses everything and I just don't know how to make it work in this perfect, hey do this. Which is, I guess, encouraging for some people, because life is just messy and it's not as black and white. And again, for me, what's anchored my soul is these last two months, I have never felt more loved by God and I have never felt more loved by others.

Trey VanCamp: Other people have really reached out to me and cared for me. And so I think I'll always be grateful for this season because of that. But yeah, I would just say, reach out to mentors, godly people who've been through life. I could never have made the decisions I made, all of the different decisions without... I mean, I reached out to so many people that I know and love and trust and I'm very rich when it comes to relationships. And I think I am sane today and excited today about what's next because of those people in my life that I've constantly looked to for wisdom and direction.

Peter Englert: Trey, it's just such an honor to interview you because just, I hear your heart for people to experience God's love and presence. I even think of the tragic figure of Chris Paul. I've never doubted that guy's hard work even though he is a tragic figure. And I look at you, you're not a tragic figure, but I think that actually in our weaknesses and in our pain for people to kind of hear hope and God's love, it's an honor to be a part of that discussion with you. So we are going to close this episode with a question that we ask at the end of every episode, which is, what does Jesus have to say about obeying God being so painful? So the good news is Aaron and I, who accidentally wore the same polos today are going to answer that question. And then you get to clean up whatever mess we leave. Does that sound good?

Trey VanCamp: Sounds great.

Peter Englert: So me or you, who's going for it?

Aaron Mercer: You start off.

Peter Englert: Okay. You know, as I listen to this episode and as I've engaged your story Trey, I just keep thinking about number one, Jesus obeyed God and it didn't necessarily end well. But I think of every figure in the Bible and there's this scene where Paul, who's writing to the Corinthians, says that he has his thorn in his flesh. And we don't know if it's figurative or physical or whatnot, but it was something really painful. And God responds to him by saying, my grace is sufficient. And you know, I just think that if we're able to let go of this idea that obeying God will equal success, that obeying God will make things easier, that we actually get something better and more authentic. And we begin to see life in grace in different ways.

Peter Englert: And that doesn't always sound helpful. But I think in the long run, what God does, I've heard it said this way, when you can't trace God's hand, you can always trust his heart. And I think that there's something powerful about what you're saying that no, God doesn't want to just give you a bunch of instructions, but there's something about His presence. There's something about how these difficult season and when we obey and it doesn't turn out well, that God comes and makes Himself real in powerful ways. So that's kind of what I'm leaving with, but Aaron, why don't you go ahead and you share your thoughts?

Aaron Mercer: Yeah, no, I [inaudible]

Trey VanCamp: I just keep going back to the phrase, the light and momentary affliction, our eternal weight of glory, it's got to far outweigh that. And so I think what we see is the scene realm, but there's still the unseen, there's the temporal versus the eternal. And because of the resurrection, we can know for sure that all of this pain is temporary. And that's the joy that we have. And that's the hope that we have. And this resurrection means you have to go through death, but man, the life that you get, the Zoe, the abundant life after is worth every second.

Peter Englert: Man, that's a great place to close and Trey, when your book comes out, make sure you let us know, because we want you back on the podcast to talk about that so we can look for it.

Trey VanCamp: Amazing. Thank you. Sounds good. I appreciate that.

Peter Englert: Trey, where can we find you, if our listeners wanted to look you up?

Trey VanCamp: Yeah, the best place is to go to YouTube and just search Trey VanCamp. I do also have a website, Trey vancamp.com, which is also a great spot. I've been doing like a weekly newsletter, just three ideas that I've seen from other people that's getting some good feedback. So you could sign up for that at Treyvancamp.com. So one of those two places is a great place to start.

Peter Englert: Thanks Trey. And as always, the best place to get ahold of us is go to Why God Why podcast.com, click the subscribe button, emails from this episode and other wonderful episodes, you can get that. So thank you so much for joining us. We hope to see you next time on the Why God Why podcast.