Curated content, insights and opportunities designed to elevate careers and strengthen teams in Architecture and Design.
Is an Architecture Apprenticeship Right for You? Insights from the Experts & Graduates
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Stephen Drew: Are you thinking of becoming an architect? If you want to do things differently, this episode may be the one for you. Alright, 30 seconds. Hello everyone and welcome to this non livestreamed livestream special. It's not just me, but we've got an [00:01:00] extra guest today and what are you, what we're going to talk about? I hear you say, I'm going to tell you all that in a second because we are here to talk about the awesome Architectural Apprentice Scheme.
That's right, not part one, part two, part three, which I did, I did part one and part two. No, we're going to learn all about the Architectural Apprentice Scheme together and who better than me. Then, the people that have written the book on the subject, as well as those who have actually done it, gone through the process, and here to tell us all about it.
And on that note, I have the fantastic, and we'll go this way, we'll go up and around. Ooh, that order. We'll work it out. On my, in this box over here to my right, I have Daniel. Daniel! Hello, how are you?
Daniel Goodricke: Good. Thanks, Stephen. Thanks for having us.
Stephen Drew: Daniel, now, tell us a little bit about yourself first of all. Who are you?
Daniel Goodricke: Yeah, [00:02:00] sure. I'm Daniel Goodrick. I'm a Chartered Architect and Assistant Professor at Northumbria University. Northumbria, along with London South Bank, were the first two real schools of architecture in the country to offer a degree apprenticeships following the introduction in 2018 19. The last two or three years I've looked after years one and four, so that's the very first year of the apprenticeship.
Often students returning to a school of architecture for the first time in at least a year or so, and then year four, including their end point assessment, so broadly the equivalent of a part three. Before doing that role, I was involved for a couple of years in Northumbria's apprenticeship delivery across the whole of the Department of Architecture and Built Environments, so I've got some experience of not just supporting architecture apprentices, but also building surveyors, civil engineers, etc.
Stephen Drew: Excellent. Thank you so much, Daniel. I appreciate that. And we'll go down then to Luke because you two have done something together and we'll go on to that in a second. But Luke, who are you first of all for the audience?[00:03:00]
Luke Murray: Hi Stephen, I'm Luke Murray, and I'm the course leader for the BA Honours Architecture at Ravensbourne University London, which I think you've been to relatively recently. But yeah, as you say, Daniel and I co authored the Architecture Apprenticeship Handbook. My experience with apprentices was whilst at London South Bank University, I was heavily involved in kind of the setup of that course and its running until I left in about 2021.
But yeah, it's been a really interesting journey. It's been really great to work with Daniel on the publication.
Stephen Drew: Excellent. Excellent. And I'm going to bring it up here quickly. So here's the book. It's like Graham Norton in the audience. If you want to check out the book, you can find it on the RIBA. It's also on Amazon. So you can check out the Architecture Apprenticeship Handbook. All the information's in there, but we're going to do a little bit of an overview today.
The juicy nuggets are going to be in there, but we're going to try and cram as much into the time as possible. So it's on Amazon. It's on the [00:04:00] RIBA. You can decide who you want the money to go to. Jeff Bezos. Or, the next RIBA President! But thank you, we'll go into that in a bit. I can't wait to go through it.
And we have here, last but definitely not least, we have Laura. Laura, how are you?
Laura McClorey: Great. Thanks, Stephen. Thanks for having me today.
Stephen Drew: My pleasure. Laura, tell us about yourself then, because you must have learnt a lot lately, and that's because you've done, you've become an architectural apprentice, you've done a bit of it, right?
Laura McClorey: absolutely. Yeah. I just completed my apprenticeship in
Stephen Drew: Woo!
Laura McClorey: October of 2023. Chartered architect now, working for Faulkner Browns Architects in Newcastle upon Tyne. And yeah, it was one of the I just completed my apprenticeship in October of 2023. Chartered architect now, working for Faulkner Browns Architects in Newcastle upon Tyne.
And yeah, it was one of the First apprentices through the whole course really, and I was in the second year of the apprenticeship beginning in Northumbria University. So I think very much one of the trailblazers of the new course,
Stephen Drew: [00:05:00] you took the word out of my mouth, that I was gonna say. You are a trailblazer and that's amazing. Especially because the Architectural Apprentice Scheme isn't as well known as Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 because it's new. I would just like to hear first and foremost a bit of that journey then. So how did you find out about it and what made you think, you know what, I want to do it this route compared to this route?
What I know of the traditional route to become an architect.
Laura McClorey: yeah I guess it's a bit of a. Interesting slash hopefully not too long a story. I qualified in Ulster University in Belfast my undergrad, and then moved over to Newcastle to work in Faulkner Brown as a part one architectural assistant. I then joined a university to start my masters in the traditional way.
But at the time, I didn't think I actually wanted to do the work in the profession.
Stephen Drew: Right.
Laura McClorey: I made the quite difficult decision to actually leave my Part 2.
Stephen Drew: Oh, [00:06:00] wow.
Laura McClorey: I did a completely different masters and worked in the business industry for a year. But I guess I, in the back of my mind, was always thinking that I had some real unfinished business with architecture.
Really missed the creative endeavor, working on a team on fantastic projects. I was fortunate enough that I built a really good relationship with Faulkner Browns. And I'd heard about the apprenticeship beginning in Northumbria University, so basically approached Faulkner Browns and said whether there'd be any chance that I'd be able to be one of their apprentices and go back to study in Northumbria.
And everything just fell into place from there, in terms of, how I want, how I was going to become an architect really and what worked for me.
Stephen Drew: Good for you. And that's amazing as well, even to hear that maybe this route also suits someone that's maybe done it a bit different way or is thinking of returning to it. I like it as well. And we're going to go onto in a second, the top tips, but just while I have [00:07:00] you here, I'd love to know the appeal because we're going to expand upon it.
However, in short as well, the Architectural Apprentice scheme, you also work. while you learn that's the main that's one of the big headlines isn't it compared to the traditional route so you're working in industry so you so you worked at Faulkner Browns while studying in the apprentice scheme
Laura McClorey: Yeah, absolutely. So it's an 80 20 split in terms of my week. So from Monday to Thursday, I was in Faulkner Browns working on big projects on, as part of the team. And then on a Friday I'd be in university doing my coursework in Northumbria. So it's quite an endeavor you could say because obviously working in practice, it's, you're never going to.
It's never going to be easy, giving up any eyeballs because you're because you're studying. It's about real time management and kind of grappling with those. Demands, from both parties. Yeah, if you dive in and, grab it by both hands, that it's a great [00:08:00] opportunity.
Daniel Goodricke: And Steven what Laura mentions there in terms of this opportunity through the apprenticeship to combine. A professional practical experience in the workplace along with academic training in a school of architecture. That was one of three principal drivers or agendas that were the base of really establishing this.
The other couple, just briefly, was the idea of learning and earning. So the hundred Thousand Pounds Debt, which I think has been subject to a number of your podcasts in the past. That had been an obstacle, that had been a prohibitive element that stopped ones from continuing with their education and fully qualifying.
So we feel that in many ways this breaks down the obstacle, allows ones to Have a mortgage to perhaps start a family. These are things that often happen throughout the duration of an apprenticeship, reflecting the realities of contemporary and modern life. And the other one that we're really passionate about is diversifying the profession.
And making it more inclusive so that we, as architects, [00:09:00] better reflect the sort of communities that we have responsibility in serving.
Stephen Drew: Yeah very cool. And I want to flesh that out a little bit as well, because when we've heard of interns in the past or apprenticeships at architecture fashion industry, whatever industry, sometimes it can be unpaid, right? Whereas what we're talking about here is a salaried position for the work you do.
For the benefit of the doubt of the audience. It's a salaried position. So you're actually, you're earning, that's what you're saying. So you're getting paid from Falkland Browns for the hours you're doing, and then you're doing a bit of extra time at university in parallel. So it's that 80 20 split. Is that correct?
Laura McClorey: that's correct. And what was great as well, in terms of how Faulkner Brown's managed that, was that every year of my four years on the apprenticeship, we went up in an incremental scale in terms of your salary. So that by the time you finished and qualified, you were on a, you were on a qualified architect's wage, but not going from part one straight to architect.
It went up on a scale [00:10:00] every year. So that, made a lot of sense, really, in terms of Making sure that apprentices feel valued, obviously, that they're rewarded as they go through their kind of trajectory in terms of being an apprentice and becoming an architect.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Daniel Goodricke: the cost of training an architect, Stephen, just to add a little further to what Laura said there, is paid for essentially by the government via the apprenticeship levy. And a condition of that is that students receive a full time salary. So they're not just paid for the four days a week or 0. 8 full time equivalent.
They're also paid for that day that they're in university. So they're very much seen as as staff with full terms and conditions as anybody else. And the apprenticeships being offered to them as apprentices. A somewhat grand CPD provision motivated by the investment and the value that they have within that staff body and the need to grow and develop and retain these staff from a relatively early stage of their career.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. [00:11:00] Fantastic.
Luke Murray: maybe worth adding as well, because Fogner Brown are a very established practice in the UK, but the apprenticeship is open to practically any employer who can take from the levy to support an apprentice. I guess from the employer's perspective they just have to have the resource within the practice to be able to support an apprentice, but it is open to any practice, whether that be one, one person working on their own or practice of 500 people.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Really well said. And one of the obvious benefits I can see as well is, cause when I was a part one, yeah, you do your three years, then you go to uni, you plonked in. You're like, Oh my gosh. I, when you go into practice, you're like, Oh my gosh, I don't know what I'm doing. And you learn a bit.
Then you go back to uni for two years and then you return to industry. And it's it all goes up again. And you haven't really worked in industry for that time. Whereas what you're saying, Laura, is throughout that time of Folkler Brands, you're working, right? So you're, did you feel that your professional experience was increasing up compared to maybe some friends that you know, who are doing [00:12:00] the traditional route?
Laura McClorey: Absolutely I think the best example of that for me is the fact that whenever I started as an apprentice I started at RIBA Stage 2 of the Nottingham Central Library project in the business. As part of that team a junior designer, then at the end of the apprentice, at the end of my apprenticeship, I was the lead architect on the scheme, handing it, handing the project over to the client.
So you definitely see that you get that full experience and exposure to real life projects that I just don't think you get the same way in terms of a traditional approach, really. So yeah, you definitely get that huge added bonus of being able to grow professionally and also grow your professional relationships too and become a real So established and valued member of the team that your architectural practice wants to hold [00:13:00] on to because they've obviously invested a lot in you.
So it's a real two way street in that regard.
Stephen Drew: Wow. Okay, cool. It all sounds great to me. I think what, because as well, Daniel, and Daniel's the real organizer behind all this. I'm the anchor man with the script here, but we've structured this episode today to be a little bit of a practical help as well. And so the first topic that I thought we were all going to go around is top tips for deciding whether An apprenticeship is right for you because big question on people's minds is oh, do I do the Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 route?
That seems to be what a lot of people have done. We've got the Architectural Apprentice route. I'm not sure if it's right for me or not. So how would we unpack that? We've talked about it. Earning and learning. So that's a big driver. But maybe what would be really useful is we could talk about the [00:14:00] characteristics or the personalities that lend themselves to the apprentice apprenticeship scheme really well.
Have you seen between the three of you certain personalities that do really well in this scheme? In your opinion,
Daniel Goodricke: Yeah, I think there's principally two things for me there, Stephen. One's the sort of appeal, and the other one is the personal attributes or the characteristics. As well as the earn and learn that we've already spoken about in part, we often find that apprentices or year out students are drawn to a Level 7 apprentice principally because of a preference for experiential or hands on learning.
Rather than strictly academic learning. We've also found that a number of students have been drawn to the apprenticeship because of a neurodivergence that they have or a learning preference that they have. We've had a lot of success with dyslexic students, for example who have perhaps found normative academic modes of learning and [00:15:00] assessment hasn't allowed them to fully realize their potential.
So much of what we do at Northumbria in partnership with a practice like Faulkner Browns and others that we work with, we use an authentic model or a problem based learning model which often not only appeals, but allows those students to exhibit the full breadth of knowledge, experience, and skills that they have.
In terms of the characteristics and in the handbook we do in chapter three reference and derive some ideas from an educationalist by the name of Malcolm Knowles. He has five principal characteristics, but just briefly to comment on three. One is the notion of self concept. An independent sort of self directed spirit on the part of the apprentice, the ability for them to determine and make decisions.
learning choices around what they want from their apprenticeship, which whilst that's, he talks about that principally from the perspective of adult learning, we find that's not dissimilar within master's study generally but perhaps for more distinctly the case for apprentices themselves.
[00:16:00] He also speaks about a readiness to learn, and this orientation towards what helps students to thrive within the workplace. And we certainly find that to be the case. And finally, the motivation to learn. Often apprentices are motivated by what we might coin sort of internal factors.
So ideas about realizing their creative, their intellectual, and their social potential opposed to external factors, which might be the case at undergraduate level. which is things like grades or how mum and dad feel that you're faring, for example. So this combination of the appeal, the earn and learn, the experiential hands on learning and neurodivergence with these characteristics, we found that they're really the remedy for kind of success.
And who's best place to advise an apprentice on that is typically their workplace mentor during their year out. So they have, most of the apprentices that we have at Level 7, and this is the case nationally, they've done an undergraduate degree via a traditional route, full time course, and they've spent a [00:17:00] period of time, typically 12 months during a year out in practice.
And the Workplace Mentor, certainly if it's a practice that have got experience of supporting apprentices, a really best place to help you. quite realistically assess whether it's the right pathway for you or not.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Makes sense. And maybe just upon that point, because sometimes I've got a confession. I get confused about the levels. Can we quickly go through what the levels are? So is it sick level that you've got level sixes and sevens? So can you quickly break that down for the audience and me?
Luke Murray: Yeah, so Level 6 is typically Architectural Assistant Apprenticeship, so that would be the equivalent of Part 1, so by the time you finish the Level 6, you acquire your Part 1, whereas Level 7 is an integrated course, so on that, it's equivalent of obtaining the Part 2. and part three. However, there are stages to that.
So in the same way that [00:18:00] you do part two, part three for the level seven apprenticeship, you do effectively your master's and then you can get your award for your master's at that point. Then you move on to what's called the end point assessment, which we hopefully won't talk too much about today. But that's where you start to move towards the part three and then receive the certificate there.
Our handbook is primarily focused on the level seven.
Stephen Drew: Got it. Okay. And maybe we can just touch upon as well. So I, from Laura, what was interesting about what Laura said earlier is that you did a bit of the traditional route. Then you decided, actually, I want to do the apprentice game, but you can that's something that happens. So you could do your part one, right?
A level six and decide you want to do level seven. Apprentice Scheme for the next few years. You can transfer over at key points, is that correct?
Daniel Goodricke: Yeah, absolutely. And the majority Those that pursue an apprenticeship choose to do so currently at level [00:19:00] 7, just by virtue of that's where the greatest demand is, Stephen. So apprenticeships are, they're devised by industry. They're employer led initiatives. And the demand that they've identified, the skills gap, both nationally, within regions, and within their own practices is principally at Level 7.
So there is a small number of schools, possibly two or three, that offer Level 6 Apprenticeships, including where Luke was previously Head of Division at London South Bank. But there's a much larger number, reflecting the demand that there is an industry that offer Level 7. What's worth mentioning on, just briefly, is a couple of months back, And we passed a really critical milestone in that we had what The government referred to a thousand starts on apprenticeships, so between level 6 and level 7, we've now got over a thousand apprentices either enrolled or having completed since their introduction in 2018 19.
So that was a really critical stage. The proportion of that's probably around [00:20:00] 200 or so at level 6 and 800 at level 7, so that gives you a sense of of how the cohort as a whole is split across those two levels. What's
Laura McClorey: I think as well, just on the Level 7 versus Level 6, what really works with Level 7, and is really important, Again, in terms of a top tip is that Level 7 tends to be you've done your Part 1 placement with the organization and then you're kept on within the organization to be the apprentice. That's my experience anyway and it's the vast majority of the experience of People that I know that have gone through the apprenticeships.
It's not, obviously there is ways that you can do apprenticeships with companies that you haven't worked for before, and that's fantastic as well. But I think what makes the Level 7 work from a practice point of view is that the practice has been able to see you work as part of the team for a year or two years as a Part 1.
They know how you [00:21:00] work. They know you're dedicated. So that's why I think the Level 7 is, has came first,
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Got it. Okay. That makes sense. Cause this is one of the points we got down here is that, so maybe if you are a part one, you're in the architectural practice, you get along with them and then you're thinking of going back to uni, it's the perfect time to go listen. Mr. and Mrs. Faulkner Browns, I've got a cool idea.
How about maybe I go back as an architectural apprentice, I can still work here, you won't have to lose me, and we can go through the process together, and I can basically work from my part two. You're retaining me on the team, that kind of thing. Got it. That makes a lot of sense because That's what I was wondering.
But also, where I can see it being really cool as well is because that difficulty from Part 1 to Part 2 ramps up a lot, so it's actually good for you, and it's good for them so they don't lose someone. Okay, that was
Daniel Goodricke: also really we found really beneficial, Stephen, is that from the outset, [00:22:00] there's a commitment on the part of all three parties. So the apprentice, the employer, and the, what we would refer to as the training provider, or the School of Architecture, the university. And from the outset, there's a commitment to support the apprentice for several years.
And there's a learning plan as part of that. So rather than this. Dipping in and out of practice or dipping in and out of the academy as is traditionally the case of parts one, two, and three. Those five years of academic study interspersed by two relatively intensive periods of professional practical experience.
From the outset, they commit to ultimately the part three. So during that four years of the apprenticeship at level seven, the practice are acutely aware that they need to afford that student the right level of experience. the right complexity of projects, the right level of responsibility, in order to prepare them for that final study.
So they actually take a great deal more ownership as part of that investment in that member of staff. And this means that we have very few students that get to the endpoint assessment or get to the part [00:23:00] three and don't have a case study. Or don't have a robust enough professional experience to really be well portrayed and encapsulated within a career appraisal.
So some of the pitfalls have occurred previously by the traditional route. Things that have been obstacles that have prevented a student from fully qualifying, we're finding that those are becoming less of an issue.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Makes complete sense. Fantastic. Now, the only other point that we've got around this subject here was about required qualities. so can you expand a little bit upon that? Maybe Luke or Daniel, what do you think works really well on that? Is there anything particularly you want to add around that?
Luke Murray: These really came from discussions with employers. So something that we agreed on really early about the handbook is that it wasn't to be just written by Daniel and I, because we couldn't put ourselves in that position as [00:24:00] being the absolute experts on apprenticeships. So we wanted to make it collaborative and engage as many employers and apprentices and other academics as we could.
And some of the feedback that we got from practices, and I think, this one is referring to Paula Thomas Edwards directly, was what qualities do they look for in, in apprentices or in their employees who they'd like to support for the apprenticeship route. And some of the things that they provide.
Suggested were high level of natural ability. So being able to draw very well, think very well, kind of critical tools as you move into part two, for sure a high order of design and practical ability. So again, being able to have certain skill sets that work well in practice and be committed to working hard, which I think is, it's always a difficult thing to start.
to put forward but a lot of hard work is required in order to succeed here and I think Laura would probably agree to that with regards to things like time management and the actual workload and balancing between [00:25:00] academia and practice. I imagine it's really not easy at all but also the apprentice is being willing to put in extra hours when needed.
And again, there's questions about well being, et cetera, but I think at certain times within kind of the academic year there's time when you have to put in more than probably you should helpfully be doing, I suspect. Also someone who's got a good level of Communication, so being able to communicate with the university because you're in practice typically four days a week and university only one day a week, so you really have to take ownership of staying engaged with what's happening at the university, make as many connections as you can with other apprentices, full time students, and academics, just so you feel a part of that but also Being very responsive in practice as well.
So taking on working opportunities with the employer and then again, being autonomous and putting yourself forward for different things. I'm probably, Laura should actually speak to this because again, she's lived it and experienced it. So she'll probably tell you a [00:26:00] lot better.
Laura McClorey: Yeah, no, look, everything you've said is bang on. It's, the apprenticeship's not for the faint hearted, I think is the most important thing to say. You have to be willing to put in the graft because whilst on paper it is a day a week, it's never a day a week. It goes into your evenings, your weekends.
It does, it can at times become all consuming in terms of your practice work and your academic work. So you just have to be prepared for that really. So I think being the right personality and having that level of endeavor is key really.
Stephen Drew: Fair enough. We're all in. That's the point, isn't it? It makes complete sense, but I guess the trade off is you learn a lot more and all that cool stuff. Makes complete sense. Thanks for that. The next thing we wanted to talk about was, whoops, I went to the wrong one. That's what happens when I'm in charge of the mouse.
The next one was the apprentice top tips for design deciding on the right training provider. First of all, what is it, which, when we're [00:27:00] talking about training provider here, are we talking about universities? Are we talking about the companies that are supporting them? It's the universities, right?
Daniel Goodricke: Yeah,
Stephen Drew: from you two awesome kick ass tutors, how would one find the right course for them out, out in the big wide world?
Daniel Goodricke: there's a couple of starting points. I think both the RIBA as a professional body and also. ARB is a statutory regulator, both of those collate and maintain a list of approved training providers or schools of architecture offer an apprenticeship. So currently, I think I'm probably right in saying there's over 60 schools of architecture now that offer at least one of the levels, part one, two, or part three.
In terms of apprenticeship offering at level six, it's as few as two or three. At level seven, I think we're around 12. It looks as though there might be a bit of growth in an upward direction to 14 or 15 in the [00:28:00] relatively near future. So the. Options available to you are reduced not all schools of architecture provide it, but I've always maintained that architecture is not a subject, it's a discipline, and as a consequence of that breadth, Stephen it's up to students to determine.
What ethos or what particular agenda whether it's you know a professional practice agenda it's a social or cultural responsibility might be around ethical practice whatever it is that they have a principal focus and a level of expertise in and that the student's able To get under the skin of that, determine that, and ensure that, as is equally important that the match of employer is correct.
Also that the School of Architecture is conducive to what they're interested in, what the practice is able to support them in, and ultimately where they want to take their career long term.
Stephen Drew: very cool. Makes complete sense. I think that covers that. That makes a lot of sense to me, unless there's anything else anyone wants to add.
Luke Murray: There might be [00:29:00] other small points to think about. So if you're in employment, does it matter on the location of the university? I think there's schools offering apprenticeships across the country, but I think it's just about a considered decision. So doing a bit of research, not too different from if you're applying for a full time part two, you'd want to find out who's teaching at the university, what kind of projects they're doing, what kind of work they're doing.
I think it's just about Working out where you feel that you fit across those offers, the universities that offer the apprenticeship.
Daniel Goodricke: And it's the same considerations, isn't it, for anyone that's embarking on an undergraduate degree? Prospectuses. Websites, open days, opportunities, if possible, to meet course leaders and those responsible for modules in person, to have a discussion about them, to really get a sense of what this is like.
Specific questions, over and above those generic ones, and Luke reflected on it briefly there. The [00:30:00] mode of delivery. Does it require in person attendance exclusively, or is there a remote or distant provision? Is it hybrid that they're implementing? Increasingly there's These offerings available, as Laura said, her experience with ourselves at Northumbria was the equivalent of a day release.
One day a week, we do have a number of apprentices that are with us two days a week during term time, and then revert to full time work during the summer months. During academic recess the University of Cambridge, through their Institute of Continued Education, they provide residencies. So students attend for two or three week blocks.
So as, as well as I described, the kind of ethos or the architectural agenda, what that might be, and whether that aligns with interest. There's a number of kind of pragmatic considerations as well that the student would do well to consider, but not only consider themselves, but talk through those in practice senior colleagues.
Workplace Mentors, those that sort of support them. I think with you being so active, Stephen, through Architectural [00:31:00] Social and other outlets on social media, it's just worth saying that the support that exists on things like LinkedIn and Instagram is far greater than it was four or five years ago.
There's a number of RIBA have their, The Future Architects community which whilst a long standing community is increasingly having content on there that is that is aimed and targeted at prospective apprentices those considering this route. We also came across a few initiatives started by apprentices themselves.
Archilogues, which is led by Faith Muir she's an apprentice at Bath and Foster and Partners in London, and Hype, which Barn Apprentices, which is looked after by Katie Courage at Nottingham and Associated Architects. So these are, these little communities that are starting to emerge where there is people with a lived experience, either completed, as in Laura's case, or partway through, that are willing to share those experiences and those lessons learned.
Even just [00:32:00] on LinkedIn, if you do a search, anyone that might be interested in apprenticeship Level 7, or we sometimes abbreviate it to L7, Architectural Apprentice. It comes up with dozens of students, so they're clearly identifying themselves as such. And I think what's always the case of something that's in its infancy and that is new is people are willing to help one another and to help them to navigate those spaces.
So we found it to be both in terms of our academic colleagues, but apprentices themselves a really supportive environment amongst everyone.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, very cool. And it's good to know these, those communities exist and they should be nurtured and they're only going to grow and grow very cool. So we've touched upon, should we do the course and then looking about the universities, the places that do, and hopefully the person's got the, an employer backing them and all this stuff.
Now we're jumping into it, right? We're taking the plans like Laura did before. We're in, we're signed up, we're going. Okay, so let's pretend [00:33:00] we're there now. How do we make the most of your apprenticeships? Maybe, Laura, I'd love to hear that because you touched upon earlier, it's a commitment. It is going to be hard work.
But how do you, what do you think the, when we talk about this subject first most, what's your immediate thoughts on how to make the most of it?
Laura McClorey: I think for me the mentorship and relationships are key here. So be that in the university, in terms of your tutor, or probably even more importantly, your mentor within the work, within the workplace. Whenever I did my apprenticeship, I was juggling with the fact that it was COVID and we were working from home.
So I lost out on a bit of the opportunities in my first and second year to be able to pin my work up within the office and have, my, my mentor, Nick, who's got, over a decade's worth of experience, or my boss, Steve, who's one of the partners on the firm, from being able to look at my project and giving Key advice as to what I might do but in my third [00:34:00] year, my final, like final year before part three within the part two stage, I made a point of doing that and it made the kind of technical side of my project a lot stronger, which then meant that I was able to develop really strong kind of technical models, because I'd had a good grounding in terms of real, again, that kind of real life project factor brought into my academic work, as opposed to what can be the case in some master level theses, where Okay, you do a detail but you don't really understand it.
Like I was actually able to understand it and to apply details that I was using in other project work as well. So that mentorship I think really is key. I think as well, because it is such hard work and something which I could be guilty of not doing very well, especially throughout the years whenever COVID was a challenge too, is making sure that you do take time to step away from it as well.
You know [00:35:00] that's key as well as making sure that you actually build in breaks so that you're not flogging yourself constantly. That's not, it's not what it should be about because you are working really hard in practice. So you need to be able to Be quite disciplined with yourself in terms of when you do stop your academic work.
So those two are really my key points. I think it's the mentorship. It's the it's being able to step away. And I suppose actually another key one is the using the resources really that you get by inherently working in practice. You have all the computer software your heart could desire.
For free because it's you're using it in work, so that's a real asset but something which was really key for me as well was that I was able to use our model shop within the office to make my technical model for my final degree show and not only just using the workshop space itself, but actually they'd be in there picking the brains of, Andrew, our [00:36:00] model maker, I'm getting all his kind of advice and if I was doing something quite poorly, he would maybe just say, why don't you try it this way?
I think it's making the most of your resources as well as those kind of key relationships too.
Stephen Drew: So cool. Brilliant. That's really useful. Perhaps then from your perspective, Daniel and Luke, because you've you work alongside the students and there's probably some that have really gone ahead and maybe there's a few things you've learned along the way. Maybe Luke, I can, Pick your brains on that point.
Is there anything that you've seen that really accelerates people in the apprenticeship making the most of it?
Luke Murray: I think the first thing is to really enjoy it, right? It's like a, an amazing opportunity to be able to learn anything. But to have the opportunity to learn without having all of this issues around fees, et cetera, is even better. But also having that, that bridge between professional practice and the university opens up many.
Options like Laura was mentioning, not just the [00:37:00] resources, but all of these different people that you can communicate with and network with. I would say that I think you always got to remember it's a reciprocal relationship. Like we mentioned it quite a lot, Daniel and I, as we were trying to prepare the handbook.
And the fact is if everybody signed up to that, everybody is effectively signing up for you to achieve, to succeed, to do well and everybody's buying into. to your success. It might not always feel like that when you're at university, when you get, say, feedback on something, but we are all there to try to support apprentices as much as possible.
And again, it's about making the most of that. I think as Laura touched on the opportunity to discuss your projects between university and Your practice is an excellent opportunity because everybody has something different to bring to the table and different skill sets that they're making them put forward onto the project.
Ultimately it's still the apprentice's project, but to have many voices kind of offering opinion is great. Full [00:38:00] time students don't have anywhere near that level of support. And I think the other thing, those that I think have seen do really well seem to be really driven, like they know why they're there.
Why they're on the apprenticeship route, they know what they want to get out of it. And they seem to have set themselves a plan, so I think they're thinking about their career trajectory, what's next. And I think one of the great things of the apprenticeship, if you're bedded into a practice and really involved in what they're doing, you have the opportunity to focus your attention on those things that you're really committed to doing and maybe specialise eventually.
Stephen Drew: yeah, makes complete sense. Thanks for sharing that. Daniel, do you have anything to add around the topic that you'd like to share?
Daniel Goodricke: I think Laura and Luke's points around reciprocity are really important. Career trajectory that Luke commented on there, thinking traditionally, architects have been described as multidisciplinary generalists. Albeit expert ones in some places, [00:39:00] but increasingly both the RIB and the RB are now really advocating and championing specialisms where the architects and professionals in the built environment.
Have something to contribute to some of the large global challenges that we face, not least the climate and biodiversity emergency. There's also a lot of success that we've seen over the last four or five years around skills currency. We, we said earlier around the employers or apprenticeships are very much employer led.
The idea that the government have is that employers are best placed to identify where the skills gaps are and how best to Industry and the economy more broadly. So recently we've had practices that have used the apprenticeship, have used their apprentices, the learning opportunities that are available to them to really develop specialist services, to bring in new expertise, particularly around things like climate or digital literacy.
A lot of success in that. I can think of one [00:40:00] student In particular, I think it was a cohort just prior to Laura who through his student selected investigation, that's a module or piece of work that we run that's broadly the equivalent of a dissertation, albeit its methods and the way in which it's presented, it can be somewhat different.
He was supported by his practice, NOR to undertake the Passive House Designer training. The one click LCA and that resulted in him developing a real level of expertise. In fact, that expertise was so well recognized and valued by the practice that he was soon appointed to its Transatlantic Sustainability Research Group.
That's an example of somebody I, or the apprentice and the employer together, identifying a real opportunity, potentially a skills gap, and then using that reciprocity between the two spheres of learning to really expedite one's career. And we're really hopeful that, and we're seeing early evidence, not least in the case of Laura, that not only these apprentices quickly becoming the most sought after [00:41:00] employees in industry, but that there's real evidence and confidence that we have that there'll be future leaders within their fields.
Stephen Drew: Very cool. Makes complete sense. Yeah, very insightful. Now we've got the next one coming up, but before I do, was there anything else anyone wanted to add to this? Or should we swiftly move on? Up to you. Happy to move on. We'll go for it. So the next one is a little bit feeding off what you talked about before, Laura, tips for wellbeing, because you mentioned it is a commitment.
You're putting a lot of hard work in, you're getting a lot out, but it's a it's a commitment. Apart from maybe having a little break every now and then, was there any other tips you'd offer people, Laura, in your opinion, that can improve the wellbeing? while going through the apprenticeship.
Laura McClorey: Yeah, so I think again relationships are key here too, in terms of being quite open with your mentor. If something is getting a bit [00:42:00] much whenever I was getting to the end, if I think it was my second year, I had a lot on in practice and I was trying to pull together my final project for that year and I said to Nick I think I need to maybe take a little bit of a step back from the project for a week, just to be able to pull back with my academic side.
And then I can, make that time up. And there's the flexibility there to do that with the apprenticeship as there should be, because you are dealing with people that are working on, on, on projects that are, they're not fictitious, they're actually happening. So you have to build in a bit of flexibility and Northumbria were always wonderful at doing that.
So yeah, I think that's, I think that's a real key one. I think again, another thing as well is just working smart, really. Whenever it came to me deciding what my project was going to be in terms of the academic project, I decided to pursue a project that was within that similar kind of sector to what we would do [00:43:00] in Faulkner Browns it wasn't specifically a site or anything that we would have looked at in Faulkner Browns, but it was a similar sector.
So I was able to, feed in expertise there. But increasingly, I see more apprentices within our business now actually using sites from projects that are actually happening within the practice. So that means that. They're able to access things like OS maps, not spending a day downloading loads of stuff.
There's a site model there, built in Revit, ready to be used as opposed to spending six weeks building it as a student. Apprentices don't have time to do that. It's about being smart, really, so that you do have a chance to take a break, really.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, makes complete sense. Daniel, do you have any thoughts about well being that you think are useful?
Daniel Goodricke: Yeah, I think it's probably in the form of a caution, when both in the academy, when students [00:44:00] study, but also in industry, there seems to be this. Pursuit within architecture of perfection or perfectionism. And at times it can be really quite unhealthy. And we spoke to one or two students that had been advised during their apprenticeship that it was okay to compromise.
In fact, not only is it okay, it was necessary. So at times you might need to give less than 100 percent to either your employer. or to your academic studies. And whilst a student might be reluctant to do that in the sense that they feel they're not dedicating sufficient time, or there's a loss of time opposed to an equivalent full time student they certainly make up for that in terms of the expertise that they've drawn from practice, their own level of competence that they themselves have developed so these, again, it comes back a little bit to some of the ideas of Malcolm Knowles that it's, the motivation isn't necessarily It's not necessarily a grade, it's what you're learning and there's a built in efficiency in what an apprentice does.
I would definitely caution against the pursuit of perfectionism and just [00:45:00] accepting that as life moves on and when you've got competing demands and responsibilities, whether they're in the workplace or they're personal, that you just get that work study life balance correct. And at times, it will come to a head, but there's no shortage of support, even in the workplace or within universities, to assist students and help them navigate through that.
Stephen Drew: Very cool. All right. I think that makes sense. Luke, do you want anything you want to add to that?
Luke Murray: I think they answered perfectly.
Stephen Drew: I think so too. Now, that's really useful. I think we covered all the points there. Now, I do have one or two quick questions. Don't worry, they're quick. They are off script though.
Oh, Daniel's gonna kill me after this. Now, okay, maybe one for Daniel and Luke. You can pass the potato whichever way you want. It's amazing how far the schemes come. And, a few years ago it didn't exist. But I'd love to know what, where you two think. [00:46:00] We can keep improving in the apprenticeship. Is there some areas, I haven't done this for a while now, that you two are both looking at going, okay, I think we can tweak the formula a little bit to go up another level.
Luke Murray: I think probably more exposure of it across England. I know that they are reviewing the standards. The employers are reviewing the standard at the moment. The Trailblazer group have come back together because there's some challenges there related to the knowledge, skills, and behaviors. And they're reflecting on that, relating that to the changes that are coming to the profession through ARB, etc.
So they're trying to align all of that. So I think that will be a positive. It'd be great, I think, for more universities to offer it. And for maybe the Trailblazer group actually to think about the level of admin involved within this route. So from an apprentice perspective, there's a lot of kind of documenting your learning, which I think is [00:47:00] positive because it's a reflective tool.
But there's a whole lot of that you need to document down, and there's no kind of official template to how you do it, but it is audited quite heavily, and I think that's that makes it a kind of a massive challenge, to be honest. I think there's loads of opportunity with boosting the level six as well.
So you might, I think through the level six, it's possible to maybe widen the profession further, allowing people kind of 18 years old to really progress all the way through to becoming a fully qualified architect. But that takes work, I think, and will take time.
Stephen Drew: Yeah,
Luke Murray: There's more things, but I'll hand over to Daniel.
Daniel Goodricke: I think if we look back to those key agendas and the motivations that were, that underlie the establishment of apprenticeships back in 1819, I think the idea of [00:48:00] reducing the burden of debt. That's been resolved, at least at level seven. So now we're looking at students carrying maybe 30, 000 worth of debt opposed to 100, 000, which has to be beneficial.
I think we've made some strides around improving diversity in the profession. We've got a much broader range of representation, which is a really positive thing. I think in order to make further progress on that, it's critical that occurs at Level 6. Attracting school leavers, opposed to people already within the system, which, Luke Spruik, if you've referred to.
And then, I think we've done really well improving the links between practice and academia, but there's more that can be done there. Thinking about the system. Skills for the future that students might have to have, research literacy, climate literacy ideas around AI and what that might mean for the profession, not least in terms of professional and ethical responsibilities.
I think they're things that we [00:49:00] can only resolve and we can only devise and shape in the form of a curricula if we work more closely together. So I think there's a little bit of work we can do with that. There's also some work that Luke and I have been doing with. The professional, the RIBA, the professional body, the RIBA, around specific support for apprentices.
Not just support to them, but support to practices and workplace mentors. Those that are supporting the delivery. Advice for, academics and educators like ourselves involved in the teaching. But not only to help them succeed, but then to Recognize and to award that success, whether that's on the part of the apprentice themselves or practice.
So there's a little bit more work that can be done there. And I think we're at a stage now where. Both practice and colleagues in academia feel as though we've got our head above water. We've had successful cohorts now go through and complete. And now as part of that natural process of critical reflection and constant [00:50:00] improvement.
And not least in response to the forthcoming of educational reforms, I think we can start to have those conversations. And there's some really good communities and forums around this. I think of colleagues we've had support us, Luke, throughout the proposal writing and also the delivery, the production of the handbook itself, the Architecture Apprenticeship Forum, these colleagues have been hugely generous.
And I think if we manage to maintain and foster that same spirit, then I'm really positive about what might come next.
Stephen Drew: Yeah very cool. Now, makes complete sense. And that's part of this really, why I was keen to do this is because on the Architecture Social website as well, we have a lot of resources, part one, part two, and they need to work on the Architecture Apprentice, but that's what this is about. We're all going to upskill together.
I really appreciate it. I have one question for you, Laura, and then Don't worry, the question round's over. It's all good. You've done part one the traditional way. Now you've done part two this way. Mentioned it was hard [00:51:00] work, but you learned a lot from it. Do you think that you would do the apprentice scheme again given the trans?
Laura McClorey: Yeah, absolutely. Simple answer, definitely. I think, although it is a lot of hard work the positives vastly outweigh any negatives because I've been able to progress professionally, financially, I've got so much more experience under my belt, built really good relationships in practice, in academia.
I just think it's the future of the profession really, so a hundred percent.
Stephen Drew: brilliant. Fantastic. That was a bit of a dangerous question, wasn't it? Because if the answer was the other way, I don't know how we would have ended the podcast episode. However, it wasn't because we all like the scheme.
Luke Murray: I think even Daniel and I said if it was available when we studied, we'd probably want to take that route, right?
Stephen Drew: Yeah, me too, because I will say when I was a part two, and I re entered the industry, I genuinely felt like I [00:52:00] didn't know enough what was required for me. I joined the practice, asking me to detail certain things, never touched upon that in the traditional academia route, and then you feel silly. So you don't almost don't say you're trying to learn in the background, so it would have been nice to build up there progressively.
That's why I would have liked to done it. Laura, you've done really well. I think we've covered everything, but we need to emphasize the book because while we've been an overview of a certain key pines, you've Both Daniel and Luke tirelessly put everything in this guidebook that people should look at.
Can you tell us quickly about the book and where can people find it, buy it, all that good stuff?
Daniel Goodricke: Yeah, so thanks, Stephen. Not dissimilar to today we've just touched on points briefly. The handbook's structured in a way that it looks to cover the entire apprenticeship journey. So it asks, what's an apprenticeship? And, is it right to [00:53:00] me, for me? It talks through and provides guidance around applying and preparing for an apprenticeship.
How to make the most of that apprenticeship around those themes of sort of reciprocity, skills, currency. Thinking from an early stage about one's future career ambitions, what that trajectory might look like. Interspersed throughout the book, we've got a number of features, we've got employers needs to know.
We're aware that this is still relatively new and there's many questions employers have. We've done our best to preempt those. We've got a series of apprentice case studies, of which Laura's work at Faulkner Browns is the subject of one around the theme of Architecture's social value, its social purpose.
And we've also got some expert Perspectives provided by colleagues both in industry and within the academy. All of the case studies, I think, almost without exception, are illustrated. So there's examples of real life projects that apprentices have worked on and the learning that they've derived from those.
And there's examples of their academic work as well. So we're really [00:54:00] hopeful that'll help. perspective and current apprentices really benchmark, but ultimately raise the output, the quality of output that's produced from students on this route.
Stephen Drew: Excellent. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. I'm sorry, Luke. When I was bringing this up, I noticed this goes over your face. That's not very nice. I should have moved them the other way around. Sorry,
Luke Murray: I didn't even notice, it's fine. It didn't hurt.
Stephen Drew: I did. It upset me, but you're here. So you both written this, which is fantastic. You can get it on the RIBA.
We can get it on the Amazon and I believe people should track this out. If you're an architecture practice, it's a no brainer. This needs to be in the library and from the sounds of it as well. It's really useful for people who are thinking of doing it. It's all there, something for everyone. So you can check that.
The name of it is for our audio listeners. Architecture Apprenticeship Handbook, it pretty much is what it is, right? The name is on the tin, [00:55:00] it is the Apprenticeship Handbook, so you can find that on Amazon, you can find on the RIBA, I think it's one or two other bookshops like the RIA, R I A S. You can find it there.
Excellent. Is there any final notes that anyone wants to add before we end the live stream? Luke, you're now the presenter at the top. Is there anything that you want? Where can I tell you what? Where can people find you? So we mentioned the book, but Luke, can you tell us where people can get in touch if they'd like to learn more or say hello?
Luke Murray: If they want to say hello, you can always come by if you're in London to Ravensbourne. We're right next door to the O2 pretty easy to get here from North Greenwich, I'm always around five days a week, so happy to chat. Otherwise, yeah, find me on the university website and drop me an email, of
Stephen Drew: I love it. I've been what an awesome underdog of a unit. I can't wait. When you see the. I want to see where we go in the next few years, but I'm quietly rooting for you. I'm not a gambling man, [00:56:00] it's good things already, so the only way is up. But talking about up north, Daniel, where can people find you and get in touch?
Daniel Goodricke: Just like Luke said the office stands, anybody that's within the Northeast or region, specifically Newcastle and surrounding areas, are more than happy to have them come to campus, show them our facilities. Quite excitingly, just after COVID, we opened our new world class studios designed by Page and Park.
So the facilities we've got here. Broadly, second to none, really. And whilst apprentices are only with us like one day a week the facilities we have at hand, as well as what they have available in practice is really resulting in quality drawn and built outputs. I'm also quite active on LinkedIn, not as active as you, Stephen, but more active than Luke.
Stephen Drew: that's okay.
Daniel Goodricke: Somewhere in the middle there, holding the mid ground. So yeah, but by all means, reach out to me the same with regards to email, my emails. I'm happy to [00:57:00] field any queries, whether that's Northumbria or any school of architecture. Both Luke and myself are quite heavily involved in RIBA validation work.
So they're the visiting boards that happen five yearly visits and also as part of new courses groups. We've got a good understanding of alternative routes into the profession. It may be that an apprenticeship is not right for a student but there's other integrated degrees and innovative models that are starting to to be introduced throughout the country.
So we can advise on everything apprenticeship and more broadly as well.
Stephen Drew: Excellent. Thank you so much, Daniel. And thank you for helping me organize this. I appreciate this, but last, but definitely not least again, it's Laura. Where can people get in touch with you, Laura, online?
Laura McClorey: Oh, good question. I would say probably LinkedIn if anybody wants to reach out there. I'm more than happy to talk to anybody that's considering doing the course that's on the course at the minute and has any questions. Just feel free to fire me a message, really.
Stephen Drew: Excellent. Thank you so [00:58:00] much for everyone being here. I really appreciate this. I love it as well when there's a few people here, cause we have a bit of a laugh and learn something together, but also thank you to the audience for joining us and hopefully this is useful. If you're an architectural apprentice or thinking about doing it, Level six or level seven.
Get, you should definitely check out the handbook. Reach out to Luke and Daniel. I'm sure Laura will answer one or two questions as well. Thank you so much for tuning in and have a good day wherever you are. I'm going to end the live, non live stream now. Thank you so much to my guests again.
Stay on the stage one second, but I'm going to say goodbye to everyone and end the live stream. Take care. Bye bye.