Creating Secular Social Space in the Rural South

Show Notes

Welcome to Season 2 of TACtile, a practical guide to Transforming Arts and Culture. We are excited to continue to share this ideological and practical road to organizational transformation.
In this episode, we talk with Jackie Clay, Executive Director and Audra Tignor, Operations Director of the Coleman Center for the Arts in York Alabama. The Coleman Center is a member of the Beta Cohort of Leveraging a Network for Equity. Enjoy Jackie and Audra discussing how the racial history of a place informs organizational decisions, the relationship between personal and organizational transformation and reimagining capacity growth. 

What is TACtile?

TACtile is the podcast for Leveraging a Network for Equity (LANE) a program of the National Performance Network. This podcast discusses practical tools and concepts designed to transform the field of Arts and Culture towards equity and justice. This podcast is produced by LANE Cohort members, Sage Crump and is edited by Jazz Franklin.

Sage Crump: Thank you for tuning into TACtile, a practical guide to transforming art and culture. This is the podcast of Leveraging a Network for Equity--LANE, a program of the National Performance Network. LANE supports arts organizations of color and rural organizations with time and resources needed to grow their infrastructure in ways that are culturally authentic and moves the field towards justice. I'm your host, Sage Crump, programs specialist for LANE.

Music Introduction: (sung) Keep on a walking. Keep on a talking. Marching up to freedom land. Ain't gonna let no jailhouse turn me round.

SC: And welcome to this episode of TACtile. This is Season Two, episode one, we're excited to be back with everyone and sharing the lessons that we are learning through Leveraging a Network for Equity, an initiative of the National Performance Network. So, we're really excited today, because we are talking with Jackie Clay and Audra Tignor of the Coleman Center for the Arts in York, Alabama. They are part of our Beta cohort, have come on, and we are really excited they are taking this journey with us, and I think there's a lot to learn about what does change mean inside organizations, and the Coleman specifically as an organization based in the South, in the rural South, is a wonderful place for us to begin to dig in and, and think about, when we are beginning to make shifts inside our organizations, when we are beginning to think about the field differently, how do we support and build from the needs of organizations like the Coleman and the journey that they've had. So before we move into some of the content and some of the exciting things that we wanna talk about, first, if you all would introduce yourselves, Jackie and Audra.

Jackie Clay: My name is Jackie Clay. I'm the executive director of the Coleman Center. I've been there three years and a few months. I'm from the great state of Alabama, and happy to be, you know, working in the arts and in rural arts, specifically, at the Coleman Center.

Audra Tignor: My name is Audra Tignor. I am the operations director at the Coleman Center. I've been working there since November 2019. I just moved from Louisville, Kentucky about two years ago, and I absolutely love the state so far. And I continue to love this job and love the people that we work with.

SC: Wonderful. So great to have you all. I’m so excited you're taking the time for this conversation from the work that you are doing. One of the things that we always start out with--, before we get specifically into your organizational work, is we have a question we start each podcast out with. And that is, how do you believe change happens?

JC: Isn't there an Octavia Butler quote, like, Everything you touch is change, everything, you know. I don't know the exact--.

SC: Everything you touch you change, everything you change changes you.

JC: Yeah.

SC: The only constant is change.

JC: Yeah. I think that, like, change is inevitable, but, like, positive change requires collaboration and, and intention and selflessness. You know, so things can change for the worse, but also when we work together, we, we effect positive change.

AT: I think that change happens when people get outside of the idea that everything's been the same or everything's been this way. And so when you grasp that idea of, you know, saying, I don't want it to stay, to stay the same way or stay the way it is, then, you know, growing from that is when change happens.

SC: Mm. I love the, the bookends of both of your responses. It shows you all as a team in some fun ways, because I think this idea of, like, change requiring a collective connection that is also prompted by your individual recognition that something needs to be different, that you're yearning for something to be different, that in order for that to be different, it requires a collaboration, as you were saying, Jackie, that connection, and so how does that in, in the idea of change being constant, what does it mean about how we are thinking about ourselves and our relationship to each other and what we're buildin. Right, like, it makes me think about when Grace Lee Boggs says to transform, transform yourself to transform the word. And I really appreciate you bringing in Octavia Butler. Hey! Always, always important when we're thinking about the world we currently live in. So, one of the things--. Let's sort of dive into your experience with LANE, because you know, Jackie, you pretty much walked into the Coleman Center and LANE simultaneously. Was the application the first thing you did when you got to the Coleman?

JC: That is--. Well, it's probably not literally the first thing, but I would say, if I started in January, mid-March, we were submitting our application. And I'm a, I'm a curator that was interested in this organization and interested in this role to, like, curate at the organization. So I, I didn't necessarily have experience with, like, high level organizational strategy, and I didn't come into the role assuming I'd be, like, thinking through the institution in that way. So, it was, like, right on time and a blessing to have LANE, to have this, like, network, you know, of peers, and then also consultancy that, like, supported me making that shift, you know? Yeah. It was, it was very simultaneous in some ways, yes. (06:17)

SC: Nice. I love the way you're like, Yes, it was simultaneous. I, I imagine it was a few other things, too. (all laugh). All, welcome, all at the same time. Audra, when you were--, when you joined the Coleman, had you heard about LANE before that? And what was, what was your kind of experience kind of coming into it?

AT: I had not, actually. I had not been a part of arts organizations beforehand. But I started mid-November and then, you know, LANE was early December, the LANE meeting. And it was incredible. Coming into this group that really just wanted to support each other, and that was just huge. And you know, I hadn't been a part of the process beforehand, but coming in and then just, you know, everybody just welcoming me with hugs and you know, like, being able to talk through the organizational strategies and working through, you know, saying, Hey. I'm at a loss for this. Can you help me? And there's fifteen people that are like, Oh, I've been through the same thing. And you know, having those table discussions and those round, you know, kind of round robin kind of thing really helped to say, Hey, this is gonna be different, but it's gonna work. That was cool.

SC: Gonna work, and is working in so many ways. I appreciate the way you both sort of started like, Oh, that LANE became a real learning community. Cause that's always our hope. So that's your experience in LANE. I would love to hear a little more about the context in which you're working. What do you feel like people should know about the Coleman Center for the Arts and where it is and how you all are, are navigating the conditions, right, like?

JC: The Coleman Center for the Arts is a 35 year old arts organization in Sumter County, Alabama. At the last census, there was--, which, you know, would be ten years ago, there was 13,000 people in the entire county. About 70% of our population is Black. Black folks. And the, the organization was established under the city as, like, a municipal program, and it was started by a group of artists, local artists, who mainly exhibited their own work, exhibited and sold their own work, but they also did, like, workshops. I think the idea of the Coleman Center being a site of, like, racial reconciliation within the community was also a driving force. You know, I had heard that and then, since Audra's been here, we got a filing cabinet unlocked, and it's been really interesting to, like, go through those material and see, like, they had a grant application from the NEA in the 80s, and even then they were kind of using language around, like, I would say more diversity versus equity, but you know. Just like individuals, organizations go through these phases and growth.

SC: Well that's pretty interesting to, to discover that there's a legacy of this, sort of, body of work and thinking about the ways in which having a contemporary arts center, and that's how I describe it, is that accurate description?

JC: You know, this part of the state, a lot of people call it the Black belt, and it is--, it wasn't really that populated by European settlers until 1830, until the Indian Removal Act. And so, planners from the Carolinas and Virginia came down with, you know, enslaved Africans, and so its' a very Black, you know, the whole region of the Black belt is very Black, but then there is, has been, kind of a lot of power and land held by a relatively small white minority. (10:14) And that's worth noting because that was who established the organization, you know? And also, it marked pretty rapid change, you know, in the 19th century, really rapid change on the landscape that we still kind of see the effects of.

SC: I would imagine that you still, when you say still see the effects of, that in terms of the work and the decisions that you as a curator, the Coleman as an organization.

JC: And then like, physically, you know, I think there--. So, physically, and also who is there, why they're there, what they've had access to generationally. Those, those things are still very present.

SC: How do those play out in the ways that you all work? How do you--? What are the things that you all are having to navigate because of that history?

JC: Well, there's some baseline things like all of our programs are free. And that's something that my predecessor established, and I'm really committed to because we don't wanna bar anyone's participation. Also, I'm really working toward it being, like, sec--. Or, committed to it being secular social space. And--.

SC: What does that mean?

JC: Well, so there's a few things also. It's hard--. I didn't appreciate this until I lived here, you know. I'm from the state, but this part of the state is distinct from, you know, Birmingham. (laugh) So, so, you know, the resources are different, your access to resources, public and private space is much different, and the, the church is very strong, and then the family is, what has been described to me, the family and couples are very atomized. So, there's not a lot of, like, you know, if you, if you live in a city and you take public transit, you're kind of forced into other folks' space all the time, you’re forced into sharing things. I think that there's some ideas around scale that you get a sense of. Whereas here, people, people--. There are networks, but, but one per--. Someone entering into that space and plugging themselves into a network, it's a different practice, if that makes sense.

AT: A lot of people equate the Black belt with the bible belt as well. And so we are one of the few organizations in the city of York that has and can have hast secular space. Secular social space. So, it's really good to have that. (12:51)

SC: It sounds like the org is one of the few places where people will interact, intersect, like, cross each others' paths by engagement with what you all may be offering, that doesn't happen in, in a random, sort of, moving throughout their lives way.

JC: Well, you know, there's not a lot of retail. There's not a lot of restaurants. So, there isn't a ton of opportunity. And some of those things are cost prohibitive. Like, I ca--. You know. I--. Yeah. Yes. So all of those things. Art! (laugh)

SC: Art. Art and the legacy of art and, and also the nuance that you're offering.Right, like, sometimes folks talk about The South. but you're making a very distinct--, clear distinction not even just into the South or Alabama, but the distinction between a place like Birmingham, or a place like York, and, and what that means about the different types of organizational strategies that might be necessary to support the work that you do, because I think that there's the--. There are often ideas that float around the field that until we make them contextual, until we actually make them specific to a place, like always sound great, like, Oh, well people will feel better, you know, if dot dot dot happens. (14:17) But I think that, that only makes sense depending upon the place and the space and what folks have access to, so I appreciate you thinking really clearly about strategies like, all our programming is free. That that is really important as a way to ensure access for different folks, but also it takes into account the history of the place, and the way in which the people move. Move through. Yeah. Are there other ways that you think about how the Coleman functions? Or what are the things that are important for you all to be thinking about, that could impact what types of resources that support or things that people should be thinking about when they understand the kind of work that you do at the Coleman?

JC: I feel like the answer is, One, we, we've got, like, five core programs. Our probably best known program is our artist residency. So those are like contemporary artists in practice, coming down and doing work that is public in nature. Sometimes that's like, you know, what some folks would call, like, art that is rooted in social practice. But then sometimes it's things like thematically the work is, will resonated with our community. We're also, like, kind of--, I, in my tenure trying to focus on artists from the state of Alabama working outside the state. So. Cause we don't really have an excess of artist residencies in the state. We also have exhibitions. We share a building with the public library, so, you know, folks that come to the library have access to that exhibition. And right now the show that's up is called "Memorial Meditations," it's with an artist named Tony Bingham, who's from Birmingham. We have a community garden. Audra mentioned earlier, our community gardener Catherine Shelton, probably one of our, she's been with the Coleman Center the longest, and it's a completely free, ungated garden. (16:15) We do give aways of our larger crops and things like that. We have an education program, and we also have a downtown space called Pop Start. So, you know, with that, kind of, diversity of programs, we're really trying to meet different needs with, like, creative practice at its center.

SC: Wow, that's amazing. And what I also am amazed at, and it's not new for me, but may be new for folks listening for the first time is the plethora of space that you all have. Can you talk a little bit about what I, what I've heard you say is, like, space rich but that's not always the, the, the easiest thing to navigate.

JC: Land rich is the phrase that, yeah. I think Audra, Audra probably has some real perspectives on our buildings?

AT: Yes. So we have seven buildings in total. Most places maybe have, you know, an administration building and then, you know, a gallery or whatnot, but we also have our residency space and then we do have Pop Start, which is available to, you know, rent or hold meetings, you know, whatever it may be. But we, we do, we are, we are very, very land rich comparative, but we, you know, kinda host most of the downtown, you know, in those areas where we have the gallery space is also a public library, like Jackie said. So we have our gallery space, the public library, and then also kind of like an educational area in the back of that as well so that it is free and open to the public during those hours that they open.

JC: I think of those buildings too as, like, our commitment to our community because the way, because of geography, the way our economy's structured, all these things. A lot of people haven't had and currently don't have access to resources that would allow them to invest in a building or seven buildings, you know? So, Audra and I and then our board, our commitment to, like, making change in those buildings, you know. (18:35) Our commitment to caring for those buildings is also--, I see as also an extension of our, our promise to our community.

SC: I think it's a really important thing to, to highlight. Like it's--. There's the, the programs, there are the exhibitions, there's all of that. And also, what's really--, what sounds really resonant and really specific that you're highlighting Jackie, is the, the physical land and the intention to hold onto it, to use it, to make it accessible to folks in the community, is also a part of what it means to be a center. A center, right? Inside a community of this size. That's a beautiful commitment that you have to, to, to the city of, to the city of York. Do you talk about it as a city of York? Or the county, or?

AT: City of York, mainly.

SC: The city of York. Okay. Sounds amazing. One of the other things I'm noticing as I'm listening to you all is that there--, that you're really highlighting things that are very unique to the South. And very unique and specific to York. So this history of what it means to be in the Bible Belt and the Black Belt. There is the relationship to land and the both ability and responsibility of what it means to have access and own land. There is the ways in which folks are moving through time and space and living their lives and thinking about that and taking that into account. The commitment to artists who oftentimes may not have the type of support where they live for the work that they do, like, all of these things that you all are highlighting really are beginning to paint this picture of a very unique place. (20:40) Are there other things that I haven't named that you wanna, like, make sure folks understand about the Coleman, about you all's vision for this place and the work that happens there?

JC: I feel--, and we heard Audra saying this earlier, but I feel very committed to my staff and to one another. And (laugh) some of the personal feedback I've gotten, like, preceding this job is that I can be a little guarded and the challenge that I, I feel like is changing and reshaping me is, like, with this small group of people, you really have to be fully present, and you have to make yourself really available. I think they're very great about telling me I need to get a life. (laugh) That my life isn't just their ED, you know. I'd say those staff folks also, like, Mr. Skeeter, or Catherine, or Walter who have, you know, been with, with the organization for a longtime and with the previous leadership also, they-,they've just been--, they've cared for us so much, you know. And it feels really great.

SC: That's an amazing segue, cause I think you must be reading my mind. Jackie, you're reading my mind. (JC laughs) Because I was like, Okay, so I realize all the things we sort of named to date are a lot about your relationship, meaning you personally, you all's work in the Coleman to artists, to the community, to the history in the city. One of the things that, you know, we highlight in LANE and talk a lot about is the, what does it take to make these types of organizational changes or build the types of infrastructure inside the organizations that then impact what programming happens or how we relate externally, right? So, you were giving us a very sort of, what is it, hyper, hyper local, like, as local as you can get, like, these are the things that I have grown in me. (22:42) And I'm also curious about what are the things that have been grown inside the Coleman to get to where you are right now, over the last few years.

JC: I guess why it was easy for me to talk about staff is because part of the LANE process is so, not part--. LANE is about organizational health that then feeds and extends into our--, the artists that we serve and our communities we're in and serve. So that, that has been kind of a focus of our, of those three years I've been here. And this, this, I'd say since the fall, what we were, and, and with the aid of this, like, Mellon application and all of these other things, we were staffing up to then, kind of, professionalize some of the things. To clarify and professionalize some of our organizational stuff, but also we have more bandwidth for, you know, supporting and working with artists. So--. Which is now getting, you know, COVID is a bit of a wrench in the machinery, but I'd say Audra's really taken advantage of, you know, we're still meeting, and really we've, we've started meeting and have met more as a full staff since, since February. So, I don't know if that exactly answered your question. What was, what was the question again? (laugh)

SC; The question would be--. And you got started, I would just ask if there are any more specifics around what are some of the organizational shifts that have happened--. That--, over the last few years.

JC: I'd say through the process of LANE, there are ideas about programs and capacity, and capacity that I, that I, and I'd say people in general kind of share. So, for example, educational programming, like, especially for younger folks, like, under 8th grade, are very popular. They're very impactful, but I do think we had to take a real clear eyed look about staff capacity, and staff capacity is a fancy way of saying we had one person that was a programmer--Jackie Clay, and so, maybe you know, saying, like, how do we still, how do we still do this work with where we are right now? And some of the solutions were things like, we, we started having workshops that engaged younger, excuse me, young adults, as opposed to very young kids, with the idea that we're gonna kinda like build local TA's that can maybe feed our programs in the long run. And, and even now, one of the programs we're developing with our programs person, Carey, is looking at, like, how can we have an internship program so that we build in more bandwidth to support that program. You know, versus we have larger staff that maybe, right now, we don't have that organizational capacity to, to support consistently with salaries. So, if that makes sense, you know. Does--is that?

SC: Yeah, no that makes sense, and that's a brilliant example. You know, so often, this idea of infrastructure and, and programming get--, it's a false dichotomy. You know, and so this idea that you have thought about this programming in order to grow the internal organizational capacity and the capacity of your community to engage in the arts in a larger way beyond just the staff of the Coleman or the artists of the Coleman is a, is a real, that's a real gem there. That's a real gem there. (26:51) Appreciate that. That thinking and growing. Are there other ways internally? I know, Audra, you've only been there six months, but are there other things that you've seen in the last six months around how the Coleman functions that is really helping spur the next iteration that you all are working towards?

AT: I think, given the past six months, within, you know, within the same month of November, I was hired on and so was Carey, the program manager, and I've seen a growth in Jackie, kind of, letting go some of the reins that she'd been, you know, holding onto, because she'd been the only one in the capacity to be able to do so. And so, kind of freeing her time and her mind and, you know, her, you know, her capacity to be able to do other things and like, reach out to these artists that I'm so excited to be able to meet and be able to work with. And just kind of, you know, giving the ability to, like, grow organization, not just physically, but also mentally and, like, giving, like, access to how we can individually grow, but also the entire organization.

JC: I-I'd also add that like, there's a lot of expectations from funders or the state, you know, the state being, like, I'm not talking about the state, like, of Alabama, but just government, you know. Around how we need to have policy in place and professionalization--, you know, kind of professionalize some of our practices. But I've also seen how, you know, these most recent six month changes, how we're really creating organizational policy that is attuned to our context and is not alienating to our current staff. (28:45) And so that's, like, another, kind of, it's, it's, you know, talking about, like, like, human resources policies is like, not, doesn't seem creative or sexy, but it--, I think having these consistent warm, communications is, is like, organizational change that makes me feel supported and excited and connected, yeah.

SC: No, that's so important, what you're sharing in this moment, because there, there are the term--, even the term professionalization is, is contested in a lot of places. Professionalization meaning who gets to decide what is professional, who gets to decide what looks professional, what is a professional. And we know that's often coded racial language in a lot of ways, right? And it sounds like what, what you all are doing and have done is, like, we are--. This is the standard that we are setting for ourselves based on who we are in the context. And in which we work. And that is what it means to be professional for, for the Coleman Center, right? And, and, I think that's really radical. I think that's really radical that you all are building that for yourselves. (30:05) And building an organizational culture that--. You even talked about ideas like warm communication. Cause there are places where folks don't actually do that, and so, the fact that that is even in the front of what you all are thinking about feels really resonant about organizational health, right? That it's--it's the policies are not devoid of humanity or dignity or context or nuance. Or equity and justice, you know. And yeah, I'd love to get a peek at those one day. Cause I'm sure that's--, it can create an environment where people feel whole and seen. And what does that mean around organizational health, when we know what we're pushing against, pushing past? Is health simply divined by economic strata, but health also meaning, do your people have a chance to grow? You know. Are they able to learn and be their full selves. Are we able to communicate? Because those are the ways, those are the things, going back to what you said earlier, Jackie--. The first thing you said to us was, how does change happen? It's collaborative. Right? It's collaborative, and it seems like you've lived that out, throughout the process and the work with the Coleman.

JC: I would say, too, around the professionalization point, what I, I think we're trying to do, or what we're doing is, is about--, the root of that is transparency and accountability, you know, as, as core parts of it, like, Jackie and Audra, as organizational leaders, are clear about expectations and so, and also clear--. Clear in making themselves staff and people in general have access to us, so that--. I guess, like, when I was first here, and maybe I was by myself as a leader, you know, staff would have to catch me to ask me for something. Versus now we have these established meeting times and established channels of communication that mean that they don't have to--. I'm held accountable. (32:30) I have to make myself available, and they have the right to my time, you know. Things like that, you know.

SC: That, that your staff has a right to your time is a really beautiful, you know, breaking away from traditional hierarchy where, like, you know, the ED has the right to everybody's time, you have the right to tell them all kinds of things. But the way you're framing around, like, your staff has the right to your time as well is part of this, like, really reciprocal relationship and way of being. It's exciting.

AT: And I think, like, coming from kind of corporate, you know, organizational structure, coming into this, it has changed everything in how I think about, you know, how we talk about human resources and, you know, how we structure, you know, communication. Our staff meetings are a lot of, you know, open and honest, just talking. And just being there for each other and, you know, how can we fix, you know, x, y, and z, but also, like, how are you doing? You know, like, I was never asked that, you know, as, you know, in a corporate situation, and so, how Jackie was talking about how we're, you know, being transparent in communicating as well and as often as possible, I think really changes how people view our organization. (34:05)

SC: And how do you believe that some of the things you're sharing impacts overall organizational health?

AT: I think if you're open and honest and available or, you know, whatever it may be, it makes the organization health, and individuals feel that it's a genuine process. It's not, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4; it's, you know, working together as a whole, collaborating, as we discussed. Making that organizational transparent, genuine and a collaborative process.

JC: We're, we're also , like, sourcing the, the like, emotional and intellectual power of the larger group, so instead of it being, like, one person's ideas or, you know, Jackie's or two people's ideas, Audra and Jackies, it's like, six people's ideas. It's Carey and Catherine and Skeeter and Walter, and then, even their network of, of community and connection. So--. You do better with, with more brain power. (laugh) You know.

SC: Somethings are like, Yeah, you do better with more brain power, and yet, somehow there are all these systems that don't function in that way, so, it's a, it's a beautiful thing.

JC: Yeah, I think that, like, Audra and I are the bottom line responsible, you know what I mean. Like, I wanna also be clear that I don't want to pass on the labor that I get paid for onto other folks who maybe aren't interested in that, you know. Look, even with the LANE process, we would have these meetings and, like, our, our groundskeeper, our facilities manager, he don't wanna--, he's not interested in some of these high level conversations, and he has a right to not be. (36:05) You know? But we do, like, speak openly about challenges so folks feel they can impact change.

SC: There's one word that keeps coming up as I'm listening to you all. It's nuance that you're, you're not just like, it's not just like a blanket like, Everybody come, and therefore it's a democracy, like, everyone--. But that you're really very thoughtful about all the pieces that--, and all the people that are a part of what creates the conditions where the, where the Coleman Center is, right, like, it's a very, yeah. That's the word that keeps coming up. I keep writing it down on my little notepad. I'm like, it's so nuanced, right, like, and I wanna make visible that labor, cause that's not--, that shouldn't be taken for granted, like, the thoughtfulness and the nuance of the work that you all are doing, and the trust that requires in each other, the respect, all the things that go into that, as part of what we think about organizational health. So again, we're, we're in this place where organizational health is not something that someone determines, Here are the hallmarks of organizational health, and if you meet these benchmarks, therefore your organization is healthy, but that you all, even if you have that, you've taken it, you've said, Well, that's a great place to start, that's interesting, and given all these factors of who we are, where we are, who's around, what we need to build, what is the history of this place, this is the right road for us right now. And you've moved in that. Which makes me wonder, in the course of the journey that you all are--, have had, are there things that at one point felt impossible that now feel more possible? (38:04)

JC: I mean, I'd say before February, there was lots. You know, right now, I'm living in the moment of COVID, so I'm like, you know.

SC: We don't know what's possible.

JC: Fresh mustard greens feel impossible to me right now.

SC: Are you telling me I can't drive up to York right now--

JC: Um.

SC: --and head up to the garden?

JC: Well, I've been doing a bit of gardening, too, cause we don't want Catherine out there, cause she's a little higher risk than me. I guess I--, this is just such a woo woo answer, but I'd say energetically, I didn't--. It's so nice, the energy that is happening amongst staff right now. And I didn't know I could feel this way in a work space.

SC: Mmm.

JC: And that even precedes the Coleman Center. I, I feel taken care of, you know? And I feel like, look, I feel like I take care of people, and it's reciprocated. We haven't had, like, a lot of visiting artists recently, so, like, my hope, also, and I believe this possible because of what we're building together, that artists will come here and fill that, too.

SC: Thank you so much for this time, Jackie and Audra. I feel like caring for each other and the ability to care for others is the perfect way to wrap up messages for the world. So appreciate, again, your time, your brilliance, and, and grateful to be in collaboration with you all on this journey. Thank you so much.

SC: Thank you for listening. Funding support for LANE is provided by the Andrew W Mellon foundation. You can find more information about LANE and the amazing organizations involved on the NPN website, www.npnweb.org. This episode was co-edited by Amanda Banskton and Monica Tyran. jazz franklin is our podcast editor and sound design by muthi reed. (40:29)