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Unbound is a weekly podcast, created to help you achieve more as a leader. Join Chris DuBois as he shares his growth journey and interviews others on their path to becoming unbound. Delivered weekly on Thursdays.
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On today's episode we uncover the gaps between managers and leaders, the techniques for building trust and psychological safety in your teams, and how you can get honest feedback as a leader. Are you a leader trying to get more from your business and life native? So join me as I document the conversations, stories and advice to help you Chivo matters in your life. Welcome to unbound with me, Chris DuBois. Kevin Johnson is the founder of the Johnson leadership group equipping organizations and individuals to achieve excellence. With 34 years of federal government experience and 20 published books on leadership, faith and family. Kevin provides transformational keynotes seminars and compassionate coaching. His recent book leadership with a servant's heart leading in your workplace dives into applying a set of strategies and principles that deliver great results for your organization. Kevin, welcome to On bad.
0:58
Alright, Chris, thank you so much. Thank you for the invitation. Yeah.
1:02
Glad you're here. And I'm ready to hear your origin story. All
1:07
right. Well, I originate from Richmond, Virginia, going all the way back to my great grandparents on both sides, paternal and maternal. And so I'm very, very passionate about the city that I grew up in. I attended high school there. And interestingly enough, in this journey, when people ask us, Chris Kevin, who was your favorite teacher, I go back to my high school, right Miss Atkins, my 11th Grade English one on one teacher, because the timing was perfect. From there, I matriculated to Virginia Commonwealth University, where I've been an active alum for the past. Wow, probably close to 2025 years now. It feels like anyway, if not longer, and I'm very, very close to them, that the School of Business. Fast forward, a meet a nice young lady by the name of Gail, we get married. And from our union, we have three sons, and they're now basically young men grown men. But we also have a god daughter, and she has two daughters. So we spend a lot of time Chris, and this season, pouring into to God granddaughters. And so that's why I smile so much because I can I can give them back.
2:25
All right, so let's, uh, let's dive in here. I'm gonna go right to get right to the point with it. What are the biggest gaps that you see between managers and leaders today?
2:38
Well, the biggest gap is really a lack of understanding. Managers are trying to lead people and leaders are trying to manage things. And it should be the opposite. Right? managers manage the process, the tools, the systems, the automation, the policies and procedures that get us to where we want to go. But leaders are responsible to lead people both verbally and non verbally. And we have a lot of leaders, unfortunately, that are looking to manage. And we have a lot of managers that are trying to lead but there is a distinct difference between the two. And part of what we do is help to educate and impart knowledge around the difference between the two and how to be the most effective at it.
3:23
Right. Now, at some point, like for a leader, right, having some management skills is is important and being able to, like manage as you go, but at what point are you kind of crossing that boundary of of managing too much and not leading enough? Yeah,
3:36
I think the boundary that's really crossed is in the area of trying to manage people, because what happens is, and this is part of human behavior, we end up micro managing people. And no, no one likes that. Because what you do is you send a subliminal message that I don't really trust you. You don't really have what it takes, I have to keep my eye on you. And that's usually not the intended message. But as you know, Chris, in this world that we live in, the intended message is not always received in the manner it was intended. And so that's what's dangerous about trying to manage people, we actually end up micromanaging them, and we send the wrong message.
4:17
Yeah, cuz I mean, anytime you're communicating, right, it's not just what you're saying what you're not saying. It's also what they're receiving the body language, like, there's so many different variables. So absolutely, yeah, I guess what, what advice would you give to a manager, then trying to kind of be able to manage better rather than focusing on on the leadership side? Yeah,
4:39
it comes down to three things I believe, and this is what's worked for me and others. Number one, work on how we communicate how we talk, how we conversate with people. Number two, give them the opportunity to reinforce what we've just said. Make sure that they really understand the gist of the direction and the guidance and the instructions that we've just provided. And then last but not least, make yourself available for questions as they go through the process of working on that assignment or that project. If managers and leaders would follow those three steps, we are well on our way to having better teams and better organizations.
5:22
Awesome. All right. So I want to I'm going to open with a caveat here. Before I ask the question. Your book is leadership with a servant's heart. So like a lot of people thought, servant leadership, and how that's big. I like just calling it leadership because I feel like that should just be the way we lead right as a servant and stuff. So that's my caveat. It's like, I feel like this is just the way right, it should just be leadership. But I want to go from, from your perspective, what does servant leadership inaction look like? Yeah.
5:57
And so, Chris, you're you're opening your cabinet, your caveat you're on point? Absolutely. But people don't know what they don't know. Yeah. So So here's the heart of human behavior. When you and I show up, and we have the title, and we have the position, and we have the responsibility. There's an ingrained assumption that we have the intelligence and the acumen, because we're in that role. And more times than not, I have discovered that is the case. Most folks that are in their leadership positions, they do know their stuff. That's how they get there. But what's unspoken, from the people that we are entrusted to lead, is how are you going to lead them? Do you give a care that they're that they're there? Are you going to value their opinion and their perspectives around problem solving and decision making? Are you going to solicit their input as it relates to making a decision on a project or a contract, or an initiative or an action and equally important? Am I going to be a valuable member of this team is really what people are looking for from their leaders. They don't always say it. But it is assumed that we know our stuff, because that's how we got there. But equally important to them, is how am I going to be treated? Am I going to be welcomed as a part of this team? Is my opinion going to matter. And so servant leadership encompasses both. And I believe that's where we miss it. We don't, we don't tend to consistently demonstrate both, both caring for people, respecting people honoring and valuing them, while at the same time demonstrating our acumen and our subject matter expertise, where those two align. Now we're well on our way to being a great servant. So servant shouldn't necessarily be the descriptor for leadership. But the reason that we add that descriptor there is for leaders to think a little bit differently in their approach, and dealing with people because if we're rude, divisive and sarcastic, unless you're in the military, you're not gonna get very far with people. Militant military chain of command, that's the culture I get it. It's not a negative comment, comment, that's just a historical perspective of the military services, and our men and women do great work for our freedom. But that's not going to cut it in most organizations. So that's why the descriptor servant is before leadership.
8:39
I definitely had to blunt my sarcasm when I moved from being in the military to moving into corporate world. Especially because my team was was mostly foreign. Right, just from around the around the globe. And so like, they didn't necessarily understand my sarcasm Anyways, that was military ingrained some habits.
9:01
I get it. I'm the son of a US Marine. So I definitely value the discipline, the character, the perspectives, and the chain of command, I've respected a great deal. But outside of that particular community, that type of leadership doesn't always
9:18
work. Right? No, 100%. There's also in the what I found was kind of the biggest differentiator with military is that with within the Army, we have the Uniform Code of Military Justice. And so there are rules that unless I'm doing something unlawful, you're gonna have to do what I say. And so it makes it easier to lead because you almost know, you have like this guarantee that comes with any command that you're putting out where it's like, they're gonna follow it unless I'm doing something crazy, right? Absolutely. Then you go into the corporate world, and it's like, no, if they don't, they don't have to listen to you. They can they can just go find another job, right? Like, nothing's forcing him to stay there until you actually have to show up. So so I want it Just some quick advice for like junior leaders who are around servant leadership. Because when they hear, right, I think when most people hear servant leadership, they think, Okay, I'm just serving everyone. That works for me, which in a sense, you are, right. I mean, that's ultimately what you're doing. But I think there's something to be said about, like serving, and still accomplishing the mission, or whatever your objective is, right? Like, sometimes you're serving by telling someone, hey, you're not the best fit for this team. Let's find you a new home somewhere else. And so I guess what advice would you give a Junior Leader to make sure that they're not just kind of blindly doing everything, thinking that whatever their team gives them is the right thing to do, but rather still thinking about, you know, their options and taking into account all the different pieces, but now showing up in a way that actually serves them?
10:48
Yeah, yeah. So that's really a great question. So I ask leaders to think about it. From this perspective, when you hear servant leadership. One of the key roles that we have as a leader, whether you're a frontline, mid level or senior level, and your case, you mentioned Junior Leader, our job is to develop the people that we are entrusted to lead. That's how we serve them, we're providing resources, training opportunities, developmental opportunities, automation and tools to be the best that they can be, so that when they go to the next level, they will prosper. And they will be fulfilled, as it relates to the accountability and the visibility that comes with the next level of responsibility. So in essence, that's what we're talking about when we say serving servant leadership, is we're developing the people that we are entrusted to lead no different than when your supervisor and your boss helped to develop you. Same thing. So that's what I want people to think about that are leading Junior leader, frontline leader, mid level leaders, senior level leader, regardless of your organization, nonprofit, church, government, corporations, academic institutions, where people are, there's a basic human need, there's a basic human behavior that people are responding to. And they just really want to know that their leader is putting them in a position to be the best that they can be tap into their potential, and to be able to perform well at the next level. And it's all about developing. One thing that I always share, Chris, with all leaders, regardless of where they are on the spectrum, is that delegation, I believe, is one of the most powerful tools that we have at our disposal, because two things are happening. And if you approach it from the right perspective, is it always works. Delegation does, in fact, relieve us from a lot of work that's on our shoulder, and it's on our plate, and it frees us up to do some things that is true. But the primary motive to delegate is to develop others. We're in trusting others, we have confidence, and then we have faith in them, that they have what it takes to handle this assignment, this project, this action, I'm going to be here as your leader to help you and answer any questions that you might have. But I'm delegating this work to you to develop you. But at the same time, the benefit is that we do get work off of our plate and off of our lap. So it is a powerful tool that is grossly under utilized by most leaders.
13:33
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Because I agree 100%. A lot of people just think delegating is what tasks don't want to do. Right? They can get it off their plate, but even the tasks that you might want to do, like if you give that to a team member, and they can crush it, not only do they develop and learn those skills, but like the confidence that it gives them to be able to tackle other tasks. Yep. I mean, it's, you can't replicate that in other ways. And so absolutely agreed. Okay, I want to talk about now. So we had a little bit about junior leaders, let's talk about as you start moving up, the corporate ladder or whatever environment you're in, how can leaders kind of stay grounded, and especially like ethical as well as they're, they're starting to gain more responsibility and authority and they have to make bigger decisions and a lot more as, you know, kind of on their shoulders. Like just how do they kind of not let that go to their heads and still show up and do all the right things?
14:29
Well, it kind of goes back to the proverbial surrounding yourself with men and women who are not yes, people. It's not easy, right? Because we have egos let's just be honest. But when we surround ourselves with men and women, who won't just always say yes, will hold us accountable will speak truth to us. I believe that Chris is what holds us Deaf that keeps us grounded. And we're not talking about a lot of people. While I'm talking about a small circle of maybe three, four or five men and women that we really trust, and we really value that will speak truth to us and hold us accountable, and make sure that we stay grounded. I think that is the key. And when I don't see that happening more times than that, those are the leaders that kind of get a little bit out of hand and a little bit out of control. Because people are just saying, yes, number one, or they're not set. They're not surrounded by anyone, and no one's saying anything. And they're kind of going off on their own tangent. So that's something that I definitely am in favor of. That's something that I've always done. And I've seen time and time again, it works very effectively.
15:40
Right? So avoid the hype, man, when you're trying to get to that level, as
15:45
best you can. Because the truth of the matter is, I mean, you said it very well, when you get to that level. ego does does creep in and this, this happens for both men and women, we get to a point where it's like, wow, everything that I say goes. So let's try this. Let's try that. But in order for us to stay grounded, we have to be surrounded by people that will will will caution us that will say something to us. And that just nod yes, every time.
16:11
Right. So I guess on that, how do you recommend people actually get that honest feedback? You know, from other teams.
16:21
Yeah. So surrounding yourself with like minded men and women that you trust, and they trust you, over a long period of time, having worked together, knowing each other, building those relationships, everything is relationship building, of course, which leads to trust. And trust is what we need to kind of keep things held together. And so that's what I recommend. And quite frankly, it only takes maybe anywhere between three to five trusted colleagues to do that. And then you do the same for them all the way, as you mentioned, going up the ladder as you go up that ladder, because it gets, it gets a little bit more and more tricky, and a little bit more and more political, the higher we go. So there's, there's more people aiming for your position, because there's fewer of them. So you have to really, really be surrounded by some trusted competence. Right?
17:17
Something that I've done in actually, while working with other teams has been, I'll take a plant someone in the in the eye, someone I know is going to give honest feedback, I have to bring it up in front of other people. So the leader has an opportunity to receive that feedback and do it in a way that others feel confident that, you know, they're going to be able to receive their feedback the same way. And so we can kind of build this predictability into the into the engine and so that more people are willing to speak up. I found that was a pretty good way to get after it without being disingenuous, it was still the feedback they were gonna get just now instead of being behind closed doors, we're doing it in front of others. Yeah, that seemed to work pretty well, for that. Good.
17:59
I like that. I think I might want to adopt that.
18:04
Let me know. So let's talk communication approaches for we've got, I mean, now probably, I can't say more than ever, there's different times and periods where you're gonna have more generational kind of different differences, right. And I think we're at the point where we went three generations who are all going to intermingled five generations, I don't even lost count after three, oh, intermingled right now, in the workplace. Plus, you get the standard cultural divides all of this, what are some ways that a leader should be showing up to be able to communicate in a way that it doesn't matter how right everybody is able to receive the message and understand what they need to be working towards?
18:44
So Chris, here's what I believe works, because this is what I've done for decades. And it works. I believe that we need to get beyond just being laser focused on getting the work done. I believe that in parallel with that, we need to work on really the personal relationships with everybody within our sphere of influence. And I'd like to keep it simple. Now, I'm a collaborator. That's my leadership style. So I've always been the type of guy that brings people together in partnership and cooperation. That's just who I am. So it comes easy for me. I know it's not easy for everybody. But having a conversation with people and just asking them a basic question about how are you doing? And if they start to tiptoe through the tulips and going around the barn in terms of answering the question, I'll stop them and I say, No, how are you doing? So whether they're 22 years of age, or whether they're 79 years of age, and any anywhere else inside that spectrum, take some time as a leader to genuinely just ask people in a very informal less than 10 seconds Ormat, how are you doing. And what's happening is it sort of is sort of now building that trust and opening up the fact that when I do get to the point where I need to ask you to do something, because we have that relationship, you're much more at ease in terms of getting it done, regardless of the generation. So you can be a millennial, you can be a Gen Z, just coming in, you could be a traditionalist, somebody that was born before 1945, who's still working, or you could be from our generation, the baby boomers born between 46 and 64, it doesn't matter. We're touching on that basic core human elements. And people just wanting to know that their leader gives a care that they're there. And just the simplicity of asking somebody how you doing can lead to so many different conversations. So that's something that I always share, Chris, because it's worked for me. And I've been in organizations where leaders did not adopt that it was all about the work and being productive, and a high performer. And I just watched so many people vote with their feet, and they just get out of Dodge, and they go find somewhere else to work because they don't even feel like they're appreciated or their value, or in many cases even seen. And, and so that can bridge the gap, the gap then, in terms of how we communicate across generations, because like I said, there are five generations in the workplace right now. And we're all different. We we communicate different, we process information different, we see the world differently. And so but I believe that those personal relationships help to make the make the workplace that much better.
21:43
I guess what are some of the other tips you would African at building that psychological safety and interest within the workplace?
21:52
I think the second piece, this is an extension of the communication. The second piece is to make sure that we give people the opportunity to voice their opinion to give their input. Yeah, we're there to make the decision. Yeah, we're there to solve the problem, of course, but can't we do it with some buy in? Can't we ask people on the team? Well, what are your thoughts? So this is what I'm thinking about doing at the staff meeting, for example, on a Wednesday morning at 10 o'clock, and here are the reasons why I'm being led to make this decision. What do you all think I would like to hear some of your thoughts on this particular topic, and just kind of open it up and see now, the other piece that's very helpful, and helping people is guess what? Phillip, that's a, that's a great suggestion, Amy, I love that. And I really appreciate that input, might not be able to execute and implement on it right now. But listen, I'm going to keep that in my thought. And I'm hoping that in three months, we can come back. And we can re energize that suggestion, because it's a good suggestion, helping people to understand that when they give their opinion and their viewpoints, that we're not just going to squash it. But even though I can't execute right now, I'll remember it and we can come back to it. And that'll keep the other ideas and the suggestions coming forward. But that's always a good approach as well.
23:16
Awesome. Okay, so there are some leaders listening with probably listening right now that believe they need to be working harder, and more often than everybody else. And if they're not, they're going to lose the respect of their team. When I think in reality, right, being able to model that work life balance and showing self care and stuff, it's actually something that people would appreciate more, because then it puts them at ease and allows them to do the same thing. For they have to just be grinding. What advice do you have for one of those leaders to be able to find that balance so that they can actually model what they what their team should be doing for longevity and sustainable kind of work practices? Yeah,
23:59
so that's a good one, Chris, that comes up a lot. So you and I find ourselves sandwiched between the person that we report to, and people that report to us. And so the advice, the counsel, the suggestion, the guidance that I would give is to just be the example that you would want others to emulate. So if you happen to be working for a very driven boss, who does work long hours and expects you to do the same, take the risk at being a much more balanced, calm, relaxed type of person. That may be depending on the person you could possibly rub off on. And be the example for your boss to say, my style of approaching this position is a little bit better in terms of work life balance than yours. Now, I know that's not always the case, but and it's a risk involved. But you also have your own team In your own direct reports who are looking to you, and you're setting example for them. And if your boss is working those kinds of hours and expects you to and you do it, now you're showing your five or six people that they need to be working those kinds of hours as well. And now everybody's out of balance. So sometimes you just have to step out and take that risk to say, I'm not going to put in a 56 hour week, I'm going to do more of a maybe 42 or 43 hour week, because it makes more sense. And if you can demonstrate that you are just as productive, and can perform at just a high level as the other person who is working 56 hours, they're going to pay attention to that, they're going to look at that. And they're going to be able to glean from that. And so because we're sandwiched between the two, and we want to be a role model, we want to be an example for those that are under us. Sometimes we have to step out on faith to say listen, I'm just going to do the 42 hours. And I can demonstrate I can verify and validate that I'm just as effective working 42 hours, and somebody else is working 56. And let's have a conversation around what makes more sense.
26:14
So I guess, building off of that, let's, let's talk some of the daily habits and routines that help to kind of boost leadership skills over the long term. Okay, right, not the the quick wins, but just like the things that people can be doing every day. So just start actually building up their repertoire so that as they continue growing in positions and responsibility, they're still able to kind of keep up with that grind.
26:39
Yeah, three things come to mind right away, Chris. And they come to mind right away, because I teach it all the time. Always be professional. Always be diplomatic. And always be tactful in every situation, that difficult customer, still be professional, diplomatic and tactful. That that extra exuberant person on the team that has all ideas and nobody else's ideas, any good. Just be professional, tactful, and diplomatic, a very demanding boss. Same thing. And if you just remain consistent in the mountaintop experiences, as well as the valley experiences, whether it's a stakeholder or direct report, a colleague or peer, a boss, a customer, just across the board, I believe if you show up that way, every day in a very authentic and genuine way. You as a leader will go a very, very long way. I just firmly believe that.
27:39
That's great advice.
27:40
I didn't say it was easy. But it's doable. That didn't say it was easy, though. It is matter of fact, nothing I said is easy. But it's definitely doable with practice.
27:54
All right. Well, Kevin, this has been a great conversation. I want to move into our final three questions here. Okay, with the first being separate from from your books, you got a lot of what what book do you recommend everyone should read.
28:08
I really like the first the first book in the leadership series, there's going to be five and two have been published. I really liked the first one because it kind of kicks things off leadership with a servant's heart. The subtitle is leading through personal relationships. And it walks us through the process of creating great relationships, but also being able to sustain them and maintain them over time. Because things happen, Chris, based on relationships, we live in a nation, probably a world quite frankly, but we live in a nation. Things get done because of who you know. And who knows you who you like and who likes you, and who owes who a favor. That's our thing. That's how things get done. Your phone doesn't ring, you don't get an email if the person doesn't know you. And that's just the way it is. So I just highly recommend that we keep ourselves in a posture where we are developing, sustaining and maintaining good personal relationships. Not for any selfish gain or motivation. But just because because we genuinely give a care about people.
29:31
Yeah, I mean that. That's just great advice in general. Because if you're always thinking how can I help other people, like eventually you're going to need help? It's gonna be much it's gonna come back and dividends. No doubt. Yeah. It's so what is next for you professionally?
29:50
So professionally, Chris, we are continuing to have a deep desire based on our business plan and our marketing plan to grow and scale. We're doing well work, of course, here in United States, this is our base. But we're also looking to do work across the globe as well, which is which is started. And we want to get deeper, we want to have more traction. But that's really what we're looking to do. And last year wasn't this year earlier this year, we actually launched an online course, called servant at heart is based on the book leadership with a servant's heart. And we want to get that course in a million hands across the country, and quite frankly, across the world. And it's not an easy thing to do. But I believe it's part of our mission and our vision and our core values here at the Johnson leadership group. So that's really what's next for me to continue to grow and to scale, to bring on more people to partner with us to reach more people in the workplace, not just here in the United States, but around the world as well.
30:54
And finally, where can people find you?
30:57
Well, the name of the company is the Johnson leadership group. And we are based in Clarksville, Maryland, about halfway between our nation's capital and the city of Baltimore. And the website is www dot the Johnson leadership group. So everything that we're doing in terms of executive coaching, diversity, equity and inclusion, training and consultancy, leadership, development, training, information about the books, our calendar, our clients past and current testimonials, everything is right there on the website. And then the email address is Kevin at the Johnson leadership group.com. And we take we take pride in making sure that we respond to everybody within 48 hours, unless it's the weekend. That's just part of the customer service that's core to who we are and what we do. And I'd be more than happy to work with any organizations that are looking to improve their team or the organization or their company.
31:52
Awesome. Kevin, thanks for joining me.
31:56
All right, Chris. Thank you, sir. Appreciate you.
32:01
If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love a rating and review on your favorite podcast player. And for more information on how to build effective and efficient teams through your leadership visit leading for effect.com As always deserve it
Transcribed by https://otter.ai