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Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown, where we take questions about faith, the bible, and culture, and give you honest practical advice you can trust. This is a space to ask anything and get real answers for real life. We're glad you're here. Now let's get into today's episode.
Madison Moses:Hi, guys. Welcome back to this week's episode of the Debrief. It is the season of love. And obviously, I am not Tammy Brown. I am her daughter, your daughter.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Love made you. Yes. Made you.
Madison Moses:I'm Madison Moses and I'm hosting the debrief this week, which Okay. Is super Let's get right in there. Alright. Kailyn from Riverside says, what does God say about people who have kids without being married? Is the person you have kids with someone you should stay with even if you aren't sure that God intended them to be your husband or wife?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, that's a great question, Kaelin. And so obviously for everybody listening, the best thing to do is wait to have sex until you're married because that's God's word, that's God's plan, so that we don't get in predicaments like this where we really are in these moral dilemmas and scripture doesn't specifically speak to the issue. And so what I would say is, let's start with the end of her question, Madison. She said, even if you aren't sure God intended them to be your husband or wife. And so I would just say, a couple of episodes, right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We had that whole question on soulmates and, you know, people finding their person. And what I would say is if you missed that episode, God gives us a blueprint for the kind of person he wants to marry. So Proverbs 31, he doesn't give us a blueprint for the exact person that he wants us to marry. And really that idea comes from the Catholic Bible, the Apocrypha, which means hidden, the hidden books. It's not a part of our Protestant Bible.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And in that there's a book called Tobeth. And Tobeth literally is this person who ends up marrying a girl who was married like six times and yeah, a demon kills her husbands on their wedding night every single night. I know all the Protestant kings are like, what? And it's not until that he that she's able to be married and the curse is lifted. And so I said Tobith, Tobit, sorry.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:T and the in Hebrew are very, very close. And so I just, but the English pronunciation is Tobit, not Tobith. So if you're looking for that, that's where that idea comes from. So what we need to think about, Kaelin, is the kind of person that God intended us to marry. And so is this father of your children, is is he the kind of man that God would want you to marry?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we need to remember, Kaelin, two wrongs don't make a right. So having a child out of wedlock, that's not right, that's not what God wants to do, so we don't fix that by committing another wrong. And so obviously, in a perfect scenario, you would have had sex with this guy, had the kid, and it turns out that he is not only the father of your children, but he's the man that you want to marry. That's the perfect scenario. But based upon your question, I would say, you know, I'm reading into this, I would say you're probably doubting or a little concerned.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what I would just say, as your pastor, I would say, don't be forced into that. Don't rush into that decision, but get people around you that know him, know you, know your child, love you, love your child, love the Lord, love him, and can guide you in that. It's so important that we have just a different set of eyes, you know. Your mom and I, when we got married, we didn't invite a lot of people into our relationship for input, for advice or whatever. And I think it would have been so helpful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now to be fair, you know, nobody spoke into that because that's a risk. Like when you're like, Yeah, don't think you should be married.
Madison Moses:It's a friendship risk for sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, So what I would say is instead of turning to a podcast, Kaelin, I would say turn to a pastor, turn to a counselor, turn to a minister or a leader at our church and say, hey, here's my situation. Because what I would say is it could go either way. You could raise this child on your own and hopefully you guys have a positive relationship, a working relationship. And so for everybody out there who's divorced or separated, has kids out of wedlock, you need to remember that parenting is about the child, not your feelings, not your ego, not your wounds. It's not your kid's fault that the relationship didn't work.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so we don't want to put that on the kids or make them feel pressure. And so the Bible says, as far as it depends upon you, at peace with all people. So what we want, Kaelin, is a peaceful working relationship with this guy. And so, but before you jump into marriage, I would say, why aren't you married? And then I would list out what are the things about him that maybe you don't like?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And are those some things that you could work through? And then maybe he has some things that he doesn't like, what are the And then can you guys agree to work on those? And that's so much better to do before you get married than after you get married because it's really difficult to agree to things afterwards. It's better to agree to them before and to say, okay, here's some concerns. And by the way, there's no perfect person.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There's no perfect spouse. Everybody's flawed. Everybody's center, everybody's broken, but we don't want to rush into things, You know, I made a joke in the sermon today that if you're getting married, one of the requirements somewhere in your top 10 has to be that they like you. Hopefully, because sometimes, you know, people got married, I'm like, why did you marry this person? And they're literally like, I don't know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so try to try to be, you know, evaluate upfront. So what does God say about people who have kids without being married? Specifically, you know, God's Word says that's not the way that we're supposed to do that. That marriage was His idea, it was His intent. And so there's really not a lot in God's word specifically about the situation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The only thing I think about is first Corinthians, if you've married an unbeliever, and that, you know, what you do is if they're to stay with you, try to stay with you for the sake of your marriage and your children. I mean, that's really the only specific passage that I can think about that would address this issue, but rather than just quoting a verse, what I would say, get a pastor, get a counselor, talk to somebody at Sandals that you love and respect, or if you go to another church there, and really get their input. And as a leader, I always love it when people come with open hands and they say, what does God's word say? I don't like it when people basically say, you you tell me what I wanna hear, I'm out of here. Because that's what a lot of people do unfortunately, is they want affirmation and permission, not consultation and advice.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's just been my experience. Yeah. Have any thoughts on that?
Madison Moses:Do. Yeah. I think for me, if just the word intended, that stuck out to me too, because I think I'm a firm believer in the anti one. Like I do not. I think God is, although He's complex, He's simple.
Madison Moses:And the idea of the one is just like, does He care that much about our romantic relationship or does He care that we love Him and honor our vows? And so I think, yeah, if you're not married, go ahead and take that time, like you said, to write out a list, decide is this someone that I can not only honor as the parent of my kid, but can I honor them in love and honor God and my vows in that? Because once you make that decision, you said in the sermon this past week, it's easy to say I do at the wedding. Yeah. And it's harder to be able to say we did as, you know, as you and mom are gonna celebrate thirty years this year.
Madison Moses:Just think that's amazing. I think, yeah, I've been married for five years now this year, is crazy. Is crazy. The end of the year, but still. And it doesn't get easier at all.
Madison Moses:And so just making sure that that person that you do say yes to, that you mean your yes and that you're gonna be committed to that yes. Yeah. Kids make it more serious. But, yeah. Thank you for sharing your question, Kaylin.
Madison Moses:Let's move on to the next one. Selena from Instagram. But shout out by by the way, shout out guys from Instagram. Thank you for sending your questions in there. We love to hear them.
Madison Moses:But Selena said, is marriage supposed to take precedence over the children? It's innately hard to do this because our children often feel like our hearts outside of our bodies. What does this look like in a day to day life? And can you give examples of how we put our marriage first?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, man, that's a great question, Selena. And I appreciate your honesty. And I think for most women, this is a challenge for them more so than men. There have been rare circumstances where I think the guy is more in love with the kids than the wife. Does happen, but usually it tends to be a female problem in the marriage.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's just because God designed women to be more maternal, right? So the baby, right, cooks, I know that's the wrong word, inside you for nine months. So you're feeling it, you're growing it, you risk your life to bring them into this world. And so there's a connection there. And then breastfeeding actually connects you in a very, very powerful way with your child.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I would say is it's important to, I think, kind of segregate those ideas. And so what I would say is I don't love my wife more than my kids. I love my wife differently than my kids. And so I don't want to rank it in terms of importance. I want to rank it in terms of difference.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay? And I think that that's really, really important to say. For me to say that I love God more than my wife, what I would say is I love God differently than my wife. And so in the Bible, right, there's multiple types of love. So in English, we have one word for love.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So in in the scriptures, there's agape love, which is God love. There's phileo, which is brotherly love, the city of Philadelphia. Then there's eros, erotic love, which is sexual, passionate, whatever. And so the Greeks understood, and then there's a word that's escaping my mind that's actually your love for your children. It's a really compound word in Greek and my mind is skipping it, but it starts with an H if you guys wanna find
Madison Moses:that
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:in the notes. And I think it's only listed one or two times in scripture. So there's an excuse for my ignorance as to the word. But the Bible differentiates in kinds of love. And I think that it's important that we differentiate in kinds of love and say, look, because I love our church deeply, but my love for my church is different than my love for you kids.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's different than my love for my wife. And just to put that in I give 10% of my income to the church. I tithe, I believe in tithing, that's a whole that's a whole another discussion. But I give 90% to my family. Like you kids are my priority, my wife is my priority.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so 90% of my attention, and so for me to say that I love my church in the same way, I mean, mathematically, it just doesn't square. Now, you know, some people in our church might give more than that because they're able to financially, and that's great, and I appreciate that. But I have a deep love for my church and I'm committed to supporting my church with at least 10% of my income. But I'm committed to you kids, you know, differently, even when I die, you know, 10% of our estate is gonna go to Sandals Church because when I'm in heaven, I still want my money working on earth for Jesus. But 90% is gonna go to you guys, right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You guys get to
Madison Moses:Thank God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then uncle Sam takes whatever he wants to take. So, you know, I think that's important. So what I would say, you know, it's just important that you communicate that differently because love for children is different. It's like, you know, you just had your first child, your son, and he's my grandson. And everybody asked me, do I love him more than I loved you guys?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I was like, no, it's different. My heart grew a new category as grandpa and that's different than dad. It's just different. And the way that I relate to him is different because he's little and he has more needs and he, you know, he needs more help than you do. But it's not that I love you less.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's just that you're an able-bodied, almost 30 year old, sorry, amazing woman. Right? And so he is just barely one and has a death wish with everywhere he goes and walks. So, you know, so it's just, it's different. And I think Selena, easy love is when people need us.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so we have to be careful and a lot of us, a lot of parents can't let their kids grow up, can't let them mature, can't let healthy people around them because we only know how to love people that need us. And really what that does is it keeps our love from maturing. And so what I would say is you had one kind of love for your husband when you dated, right? And that's powerful. It's captivating.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, you're willing to, I mean, think about, you know, the decision you made with Logan, like you're willing to change who you live with for the rest of your life. It's like a roommate. It's not like, yeah, we're gonna sign a lease for a year and then if it doesn't work out, we're out. So that was a powerful love. But it's different than birthing a child and then loving the child and then he needs you for, you know, when Logan does not.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so your mom and I used to have this fight all the time. She would say, I want you to need me the way that I need you. And I was like, Well, I want you. But, you know, as a man in this society, it was easier for me to get jobs and pursue things that were off limits to And I'm saying that's right. But in terms of needing her, like I didn't look at her as a need.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I looked at her as a want. And so that was a conflict for us and kind of her view of love early on was need based. And I said, no, no, I don't want you to love me because you need me. That feels transactional. I want you to love me because you want me and you choose me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so it was just, I think, a different I'm not saying I was right or she was wrong. It was a different way to view love. And, you know, when you're a mom of three little kids, you need a man to stick around, you need a man to provide, you need a man, you know, I mean, so I get that, but we just need to, I think, differentiate what we mean by love. But I would say, if you put your kids first, your marriage will be last and it won't last. So I super see this all the time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If your kids are first, your marriage is last and it won't last. And your husband may not tell you, he will grow bitter, he will grow cold and he will move on. And I'm not saying that's right. I'm not saying that he should do that. I have seen it play out over and over and over again.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, you and I've had this conversation.
Madison Moses:I was gonna bring it up.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. No, sorry. When your husband comes home from work, I'm like, get up, kiss him, greet him, say thank you for that because, you know, Logan doesn't always love what he does. Yeah. But he does it because he loves you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I think that a lot of wives or whoever is the primary income earner, you know, or excuse me, is not the primary income earner. It's not that that's more important because I think that you raising West is the most important thing in the world. Yeah. But it takes a team. And so somebody's gotta make money, you know, and somebody's gotta primarily be there for West.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so we need to congratulate and appreciate each other for our roles. And sometimes, you know, I think as moms, you're tired all day.
Madison Moses:Yeah,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You've been tired all just, you know, had substances spewed on you, food that you forgot that you cooked on you. And the last thing that you want is, you know, close connection. You need space, but the husband hasn't had that. So you need to have that conversation. And what I would say, Selena, is you just need to start talking about it and say, hey, how can we prioritize our marriage as a different form of love?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because when the kids leave, if you don't work on that, there won't be anything there. And the fastest growing area of divorce, it's called silver divorces or gray divorces. It's people that have been married thirty, thirty five years. And all of a sudden they're like, I'm done with this. And so you want to continue to grow together and that's really, really difficult.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I just think, you know, West, like your son, it's so easy to be enamored and in love with little people, man. I mean, they're just there. It's just very, very powerful. But even with you and your husband, like when you guys come to our house, I try not to just greet West. I try to make sure that I greet you and Logan because I don't want you to think or believe that I just love him, but that I love both because of I do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so I would say, Selena, this is just an area where love needs to grow and it needs to move from immaturity, which is attraction based to appreciation, which is I think godly based. And so I would not say, and I don't I hope this wouldn't hurt your mom's feelings. I would not say that my attraction to your mom is the same. I couldn't think straight in my twenties when I looked at her.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I can think straight now. But my appreciation of who she is and what she's done and the person that she's been in my life. So that area of my love has grown into categories that didn't even exist. Do I still think she's attractive? All of her friends, please don't say, that's what you're not attracted.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No, I'm saying the primary of our marriage early on was attraction. Where I would say the primary motivator of our love now is appreciation. I appreciate her, love her, want her. And I would say this, I would say even need her now. I wouldn't have said that early on.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I've watched this with my dad. He needs my mom now in a way that he's never needed her before. And, you know, when she got sick at our house a couple weeks ago, my dad panicked.
Madison Moses:Yeah. He was like, where is she? Where is she? Is she okay?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because he knows his whole life is wrapped up in her. And so that might be how Tammy and I's marriage go. Know, dementia runs in my family. I might need her like West needs you. And it's not that he doesn't love you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's that he needs you and for everything. And so I would just say love your kids, but differentiate it and make sure you create a category that's unique for your husband and really pour into that. And I think I said, this is probably coming off a couple weeks ago when I preached on marriage. If you don't prioritize your marriage, no one will. And, you know, just really, really try to find things that are playful, find things that are fun.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that changes with kids because like, you know, your whole idea of what sleep is has radically changed.
Madison Moses:Yeah. No, we've been having this we had this conversation yesterday. We had this conversation last week of just, you know, for 2026, we've just been like, okay, what are our priorities? Like what do we need to shift because the last year has been purely survival for me versus, know, the dad gets to somewhat have a more of a normal life and it's the coming home part that looks different versus the mom. It's truly world turned upside down.
Madison Moses:And we've just, you know, you talked about the difference between the man and the woman. And for me and Logan, you know, he's definitely like my manly man. But like typically in gender roles, like we actually respond different. Typically things that like women more get frustrated about is him and I'm the more masculine. So for me, I'm like, he's the one who's like, need me.
Madison Moses:And I'm like, I don't need you. I'm totally myself. But for us, it's been a lot of like him reminiscing before kids versus me like him being like, why isn't this the same? Why why why don't we do that? Or this looks different.
Madison Moses:We're not gonna get that back versus me being like, this is what it is now. We need to move forward. And, you know, really having a hard time coming together in that until recently of both of us, I think, you know, and so much of that's the Lord and community, but being like, hey, okay, we both are seeing that something is amiss and making sure that we come together. What does that look like? And so, yeah, for Selena, coming together, that's so important.
Madison Moses:But making sure that when you're talking about the things that like your definitions are the same. Every time me and Logan get in a fight, it's because after it we go, wait, you said that but meant that? That's not how I use that word. It's like making sure that the words you're using have the same meaning I find. And so for him, like quality time for him means this versus for me, it means something else.
Madison Moses:And so just figuring out what those priorities look like. And then two, I think not like being weighed down or beholden to what your marriage was before the kid. I was listening to this podcast of this couple and they're on kid number three now. And they just had a marriage of family therapist come on to talk about it. And honestly set me so free what he said.
Madison Moses:And what he said was every time that you have a kid, your old marriage dies and a new marriage begins. And you have to come together and work on that. And I think for me, where me and Logan have been struggling is like trying to make it be what it was Right. Versus both going, okay, wait, clean slate. Let's redefine and refigure it out.
Madison Moses:And then when we have another kid, like, we're gonna have to do it all again. It actually takes so much pressure off of like, oh, we can start over and that doesn't mean we failed. That doesn't mean we're totally different people or that like I don't like you or you don't like me. It's just capacity change, different seasons. And I think, yeah, like being able to acknowledge that you're allowed to change doesn't mean that you're a failure.
Madison Moses:It's just something to, you know, embrace some. What
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Let are me jump in there. So I think one of the big lies and what something you said really just inspired me. One of the big lies of our culture is that we can do all things. Like we can just, we can do it all, have it all. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think the number one reason that marriages fail is they feel like marriage is an addition to their dating life. And, you know, it's the same reason Christianity doesn't work for people. So people feel like, oh, I can add church, I can add Jesus to my old life. And and the gospel is very, very clear that the only way you can follow Jesus, and this is what he said, if any man or woman would come after me, let them die to themselves. So the old has to die for the new relationship with Jesus to begin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And really the tension that so many of us face in Christianity is we're trying to marry Jesus and date our old life. And it's it's it's a nightmare because you're cheating and it's not working. And then you throw your hands up. And the same thing is with marriage. You think, oh, this is just a deeper level of dating.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No, no. And this is for for everybody out there who's like, I don't know why we need to get married. This is why it matters. It is a completely new category. The two have become one flesh and what God has joined together, let no one tear apart.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so friendships look different. Hobbies look different. Everything looks different. And then you add a kid on and then that old marriage must die and there must be something new because now you're not sleeping, you're not eating. You know, your whole life, I literally text you the other day and I said, when is Wes nap?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I mean, restructured my whole day. I'm like, I'm going to be there at three when he wakes up. And I didn't say, well, why don't you- Wake him up, I'm here, yeah. Wake him up or change his nap time. I have changed my whole structure because now I'm a grandfather and what I was before has to die so that I can be something else.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I can't just add that. And I think everybody listening, I know that sounds like you're missing out. I actually think you'll find yourself. If you can learn to appreciate what was, grieve it and move forward, I think you'll be better off. I think most people just try to play pretend like it can be what it was.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's just not. It's something different and it can be better if you embrace it as different. And I think what you said is great. You know, you said one kid, two kids. I remember when your mom told me she was pregnant with Ethan.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I was like, I gotta sit down. Because as my mind, you know, and I hurt her feelings, I'm thinking, we can't afford two, how am I gonna afford a third? And so that's where my mind went to as the provider, which I missed the opportunity, but it was like, look, things have to change and three kids and then, you know, your aunt has five and then there's people in our church that have nine or 10, I'm like, oh my gosh, to each his own. But what I would say is just understand that you can't add major life decisions. And so a lot of the parents that are miserable out there, you try to add soccer your schedule, and then you add baseball, and then you add basketball, and then you add music, and then you add and you're going to go insane and turn into not a parent.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You won't have a marriage. You're a taxi cab or Uber driver. That's what And you then you're miserable. So anyways, that's my two thoughts.
Madison Moses:Yeah. I loved it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:My 10 thoughts. 10,000 thoughts.
Madison Moses:Sorry. Mean, it's your show. So you're allowed to have as many thoughts as you want. Alright. Tamika from Redlands, California said, what is a healthy Christ centered way to approach Valentine's Day when you're single and longing for a relationship?
Madison Moses:I just actually had to talk about this with some of my single girlfriends because they're doing a Galentine's Day, which I love.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What is that?
Madison Moses:It's like instead of I think it's technically February 13, but it's the day before and it's celebrating if you're single, Galentine's Day. So you get together with your gals, your gal friends.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, Galentine's. I get And it
Madison Moses:can be super positive or it can be super negative. Trendy is super negative where it's like, I hate love. I hate Valentine's Day. Girls forever. Girl power.
Madison Moses:It can also be super fun and sweet like my friends are doing, which is let's get together.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We could have a guy's night, bachelor to the rapture.
Madison Moses:A guy and tines night?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Guy tines? Bachelor to the rapture. Yeah. Tamika, I mean Valentine's Day is a is a commercial vehicle to try to get money for flowers and cards and restaurants and whatever else. And so I'm sorry if it makes you feel terrible.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Just so you know, I didn't realize this, but your mom and I, we only celebrate Valentine's Day. We don't celebrate Valentine's Day. And here's why. Everybody listening, a couple years ago, she wanted to go to this restaurant in Newport Beach and I called to get reservations and the guy laughed. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's like, you should have called a year ago. And I just happened to say, well, do you have openings for thirteenth, the day before? And he started laughing. He goes, we're wide open. I was like, Wait a minute.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I can sit at whatever table I want on the thirteenth, we can get the restaurant that she wants, and the fourteenth, and I just told your mom, we're celebrating from now on, on the thirteenth. Now, guys, listen to me. I'm not saying you can't get her flowers on the fourteenth, a card on the fourteenth, I'm just saying, let the dinner, let the celebration, let the love making, if you are married, not you Tamika, if you are married, do it on the thirteenth because you get a discount on the hotel. Can I get an amen? Amen.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was great. We a stayed fancy hotel for half price on the thirteenth that was double the price I'm preaching on the next night. Same hotel. Yeah, Dude, I that's love a bargain and love. I love both.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I love that. Put those two together, it's good. So what I would say to Mika is I'm so sorry and you know, need to remember this because I haven't been single since Jesus walked the earth.
Madison Moses:I am not that old. That felt personal.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, feel well, yeah, I'm saying married. No, I don't know. But so what's healthy Christ centered way to approach Valentine's Day? I would say this, that it's just a date everybody else is going out, spending money, going crazy, and I would just celebrate the fact that you don't have to worry about that and you can enjoy your day and go do whatever you want. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, you know, and if the Lord brings love into your life, I think that's great. And if not, I think you're great. But, you know, the Apostle Paul says that everyone who gets married will have challenges in this life. And he literally says, I wish that you would all remain as I am. He was single.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So there are advantages to being single that you just have to embrace and accept that the Lord Jesus Christ was single, Paul was single, and the prophet Jeremiah was told by God to be single for the purpose of his ministry. And so we just need to understand that God values singleness, but you're not alone as a Christian. You have God, you have your family and you have your church. And it's really important that you remember those things. You know, I don't know, know, God forbid something ever happens to your mom and I'm single again.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't believe that I would be in a big rush to get married again. One, because I think I've had a great marriage and I've been very, very blessed. Two, that I understand. I've had a front row seat to the disasters of people's marriages my whole Like I'm like, like every car crash you've ever thought about seeing, I've seen in marriage and I'm sitting in the room going, wow, that I didn't even know that could happen. So I feel like I was really naive when I got married.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think when you're young, you're like, oh, we're gonna love each other and it's gonna be great. And I think now as a 50, almost five year old, I really see how things can go wrong. And if you marry the wrong person, you can be pretty dang miserable. Yeah. So what I would just say is celebrating that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I wouldn't hang out with negative people, women that just want to put down marriage or men, I think that's very unhealthy. You know, I think Tamika, what you could do is maybe on the fourteenth, if it's your heart to get married, I did a series, this is in 2020, we actually never finished this series. It was called, was about relationships and dating.
Madison Moses:Relationship tool kit?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, no, wasn't Non relationship tool negotiables.
Madison Moses:Non negotiables.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Negotiables. Was one of my favorite series and we never finished this time. Is it Tamika? Tamika? Tamika?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There we go. Remember, I'm dyslexic. I can't read. Tamika, thank you. It was one of my favorite things, but what I would encourage you to do is make a list of your non negotiables.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And maybe on one side, your non negotiables, and then I would do this. On the other side of the I would put God's non negotiables. And just see where there's similarity and where maybe there's a big problem, you know, because you're like six foot seven, two hundred ks a year, you know, house on the beach, okay, that's Instagram, that's not Jesus. But a lot of the things I think, you know, one of the dating problems and this is not to pick on the ladies, but here's why. What do you call online dating?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What do you call that? Online dating. This is online dating? There's no name for it. So it's collapsing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So men are pulling out. They're not participating anymore. It's a huge problem because they, you know, you got all these women going on these dating sites and guys aren't even doing it. And what they found in the research is like 90 to 95% of the women are liking, texting, focusing on 5% of the men. Isn't that crazy?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. So men are feeling incredibly left out, incredibly unseen. And, you know, you can criticize them all day. They're looking at porn, you know, they don't grow up, whatever. But part of it is, is the expectations of what a man needs to be.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I think when like my grandmother was around, I think the expectations of what a woman had to do is pretty ridiculous, right? She had to look perfect when my grandpa came home, she had to have, you know, food on the table, like she had to be this perfect housewife and that was wrong. And so we started to put expectations on men, but I think it's gone too far. And, you know, a lot of women are just are trying to find this perfect guy and let me just help you. He is not out there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, you know, find a good guy, a reliable guy. You know, I told the story about how I met Logan. And so here's the truth story. Logan has a story of how they met. Madison has a story of how they met.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I have a story about how I met they met. And I'm sticking to my story because I didn't know that they had met each other before. Yeah.
Madison Moses:We had met before and you didn't know that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. But I met him and I did invite him to your brother's birthday party. Do you remember that pizza in Mammoth? Okay, well you're acting like you gotta say yes.
Madison Moses:Yes, I'm sorry.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay, yeah, and so what I would say is I didn't know what Madison wanted in a relationship. You and I had not sat down and said like, we didn't make the list, you know, here's what I want, here's what God wants. We didn't do any of this. But when I met Logan, I was like, in my mind, I'm going check, check, check, check. So I don't know if you're gonna like him or not, but he checked all my boxes.
Madison Moses:Yeah, you made that very clear.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, yeah. So I told people I fell in love with him first.
Madison Moses:Which you did, so
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, I did. And so part of that is, I think that, you know, for most of human history, families were involved in marriage. Yeah. And they were contracts and commitments between families. And so in the best scenario, you know, you married somebody in your local community, in the worst scenario, your cousin, right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But you know, somebody that you knew and respected and all parties involved cared about the health of the marriage for the stability of the community. Okay? So you had all of your neighbors and family members involved in this marriage making it. And think about in the old days, in most small towns, everybody knew if you cheated, everybody knew if you're an adulterer, everybody knew if you're an alcoholic, you couldn't hide in the way that you can today. So two things have happened, who you really are is hidden in our culture.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And two, we don't have people helping you connect. And so what I tried to do is, oh my gosh, this guy's amazing. One of the things I really loved about your husband was how he loved his brother. Yeah. That was really important to me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If you would ask me when I was dating my wife, is how she loves and cares for her sister, is that even on my list? I would have said no. Yeah. But when somebody loves their siblings, what it means is they couldn't give grace because no sibling is perfect and they're committed to familial relationships. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that was something right away. Was like, wait a minute, this guy loves and cares for his brother. And I think the thing that really got me was when he offered to pay for Jared to stay an extra day.
Madison Moses:Yeah,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Jared they were gonna pay screaming, so I don't pay him enough. So he couldn't stay to ski for an extra day. And your husband said, I'll pay. And I thought that is a killer dude right there. So so we don't we don't really know each other.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I said that. And because people are hidden and we don't involve family anymore. You know, parents just kind of cross their fingers nowadays and hope for the best. And I think that we should be more involved. And so what I would encourage you, Tamika, is, you know, get involved in our singles group.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know how old you are. Get community, find somebody and don't, you know, don't have unrealistic expectations for, you know, what you're gonna marry or who you're gonna marry. I think obviously, she shouldn't compromise on character. You shouldn't compromise on God's gotta be number one. I've said this many times, I would If I was dating, I would ask every person I was on a date with like, you know, do you tithe?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Tell me about your philosophy of generosity. Because generosity is something that truly tells you about who somebody
Madison Moses:is. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So the number one problem in a relationship is selfishness. So how do I know if you can combat your selfishness? Tithing is at least a sign you're 10% away there. Like you are at least acknowledging this is not all about me and I need to surrender this for myself. And so, you know, it's why again, there's we could do a whole episode on why I tithe, but that's one of the things is it really helped me combat my selfishness, my natural innate desires to protect me and look after me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And those are the very things that destroy marriages. You know, I need to protect her, look after her, care for her, be generous with her. And so I would just say, do the gods list, do your list and compare and then hang out with women who have a positive view of men aren't bitter and don't hate half the world's population.
Madison Moses:Yeah. Don't get caught up in it culture. I think that's part of the two I'm sure why like the online dating for men is like people are tapping out. It's just, it's cool to not like guys. And it's cool to like, you know, pick out your x and your list of, like, every single dumb stupid reason, like, why they're not good enough for you.
Madison Moses:And just, yeah, the pendulum swing of, like, girls can literally get away with anything and men can't Yeah. Like, look at you wrong. It's just it's just crazy. So yeah, healthy expectations. I think for sure you're who you surround yourself with is who you're gonna be.
Madison Moses:And so if you are only around women that hate men
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Madison Moses:You're like, one, that turns off guys if that's who your friends are. And two, like, you're gonna have this perspective that's gonna skew every guy you meet. Yeah. And any relationship needs to be filled with grace. And so if you can't do that in just the browsing, like you definitely can't do it when you're, you know And we're not saying
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:we're not saying excuse sin or excuse character flaws, but you have to have grace. Are we gonna have Stephanie on for the thirtieth? Yes. So Stephanie Schaefer, she was Stephanie Keen when she was on this show. Can you believe it's ten years?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No, I cannot. Yeah. That makes me feel literally a billion years old. But Stephanie, you know, she was my personal assistant. She was on this show with me forever.
Madison Moses:You
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:know, and, you know, she was single for a long time. I think she was single into her thirties.
Madison Moses:And,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:know, she would call me because we're very good friends. And I love her and love her husband, but marriage is tough. And I would just tell her on the phone and remember, this is what we prayed for. This is what we asked God for.
Madison Moses:Which is so hard to remember, gosh.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, because her husband Tyler, although amazing, and Tyler, if you're listening, you are amazing and such a, he's such a, sorry, I'm gonna compliment. He's probably gonna blush, but he's Tyler is such a great combination of creativity and like manliness. Like he can like work on a car and do a painting and write poetry. So anyways, I hate you, Tyler. I love him.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I had to remind her, hey, this is what we signed up for and know that all marriage really is the dying of two individuals and the creation of a we, an us. And that is a difficult process to go through. I think it's worth it. But Tamika, I feel like I'm saying your name wrong.
Madison Moses:Tomika.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Tomika. Good Tomika. Tomika, I love you. I love your name. I'm sorry that I'm dyslexic.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I would just say, you know, there's nothing wrong. Don't rush it.
Madison Moses:Valentine's Day is just a day too. It's just a day. And like you said, it's commercial. But I do think that there is so much beauty in celebrating love. And so for you, if you're single, I think, yeah, make it a priority to hang out with other single people and spread the love.
Madison Moses:But I also think too, like if there's relationships around you that you admire and feel inspired by, like feel free to love on them. I think invite those people into your life. It can be more than romantic love, which I know feels like maybe cheesy or hard.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Madison Moses:But I mean, at the
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:end How of the about volunteer to babysit for your married friends?
Madison Moses:That works They so would love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think hang out, do stuff.
Madison Moses:Yeah. Surround your season with not negative people. That's like gonna be so major and key as, you know and I think to really try to and I realize I say this as a married person. And remember, I've only been married four and a half years, so it's I'm not an expert. But I've had two conversations recently, one with my friend who's been single for quite a while, but she goes on a lot of dates.
Madison Moses:She's she's a gorgeous girl. She's wonderful. So if you're a single guy, don't message me. I'm just kidding. But she's great.
Madison Moses:And then another friend who is just coming out of a long a long relationship, you know, and and just talking about both of them with the the romantic season coming up. And I just keep reminding them to enjoy being single because it really is something you, I think, don't appreciate or respect until you're not. Yeah. And you realize that, oh, heart handling someone twenty four seven is so much harder than being single. And being single is hard.
Madison Moses:There's different things. Being like dating is really hard. Being a fiance is really Now that I've been in it, being married is way harder. You think you're in it full time when you're dating, you could see them every day. Unless you live together, it's not every And heart handling someone full time as well as yourself and then eventually bringing kids into the mix is exhausting.
Madison Moses:And on it, was so last night I'm talking to my friend and I'm like, hey, enjoy it because, you know, it doesn't get easier. You just get better at it. But I don't even mean that. You talked about me mountain biking in one the sermons And a little while my favorite motto that I shared with her last night was, you know, it'd be on t shirts and it's like big in the mountain biking culture, but it doesn't get easier. You just get faster.
Madison Moses:And what it means is you get faster going up the hills and going down. And I feel like that is marriage. If you don't work on it, if you're not training, if you're not putting in the effort, like, it never gets easier. Even when you are doing things, you just get faster. You get over fights faster.
Madison Moses:You brush things off faster. You give grace faster. You do all these things. And when you're single, you don't have to worry about any of that. And so it doesn't get easier.
Madison Moses:You just get better at it and you you move on and there's seasons. And I think I wish now looking back that I would have enjoyed singleness more. I wish I would have enjoyed dating more. I wish I would have enjoyed being a fiance more. You just don't know till you know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And Yeah.
Madison Moses:And there's so much beauty in that time. And then you're you know, if you believe in your vows and you're honoring God in them, you're married for literally until you die. Yeah. So like, enjoy the time because you don't get it back. And so, yeah, it's just it's a tough season.
Madison Moses:All of the seasons.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Yeah. I used to I used to say all the time to all parents, we're children under five. You have no idea how close you are to the threshold of hell. And I'm looking at all of the people in here with little kids because I mean, they are cute. They are so cute, but they can turn into the devil.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like so, Wes, the other day, I saw him stomp his feet at you for the first time. I know
Madison Moses:he's starting to throw tantrums.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, here it comes. Here it comes. My little angel is turning into a devil. But Oh my gosh. But we love him.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So thank you so much for joining me today and filling in for your
Madison Moses:mom. No problem. I know he was all like, are you nervous? And I was like, well, I am now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Sorry. That's my special gift, making people nervous.
Madison Moses:It's okay. Well, it's hard, you know, when you are a good talker and you do it for a living.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I have very few talents, but flapping my lips is one of them.
Madison Moses:Okay. Well, thank you guys so much for listening to this week's episode of the debrief. If you wanna follow along, like, comment, please show your love for the show. Share it with a friend if you can. And if you wanna find more ways to support, go to sandalschurch.com/support to come on and support us because, know, we wanna make this happen.
Madison Moses:Thanks, guys.
Celeste Contreras:Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation helped you grow in your faith. If you've enjoyed today's episode, make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe on YouTube so you don't miss what's next. You can also stay connected by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok for behind the scenes clips, highlights, and more ways to engage with the community. We'll see you next time right here on the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown.