072 | Chris Maffeo | Consistency in Implementing a Clear Bottom-up Strategy | MAFFEO DRINKS

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In episode 072 I was hosted by Filiberto Amati on his Growth, Brands and More Podcast.

I shared my journey from being a Sales guy in Rome to working at major beverage companies in Europe until founding MAFFEO DRINKS.

We discuss the fundamental principles of building brands from the bottom up, the importance of having a clear and consistent strategy, and how to execute it successfully across different markets and channels.

I also talk about the value of small empirical experiments, the balance between strategy and execution, and how to handle unexpected opportunities.

Tune in to gain deep insights into the art and science of beverage brand building.

Time Stamps

00:00 Introduction to the Maffeo Drinks Podcast

01:09 Interview with Filippo Bertomatti

01:56 Chris Maffeo's Career Path

05:15 Challenges and Insights in Brand Building

06:33 Defining a Good Strategy

10:50 Consistency and Simplicity in Strategy

24:39 The Role of Frugality in Brand Building

28:38 Empirical Experiments and Market Testing

39:52 Handling Unexpected Opportunities

46:35 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

About The Host: Filiberto Amati

About The Guest: Chris Maffeo

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafia.
In episode 72, I was hosted by

Philibert Tomati on his Growth,
Brands and More podcast.

I shared my journey from being a
sales guy in Rome to working at

major beverage companies in
Europe until founding Mafia

Drinks.
We discussed the fundamental

principles of building brands
from the bottom up, the

importance of having clear and
consistent strategy, and how to

execute it successfully across
different markets and channels.

I also talk about the value of
small empirical experiments, the

balance between strategy and
execution, and how to handle

unexpected opportunities.
TuneIn to gain deep insights

into the art and science of
beverage brand building.

A small ask that means a lot to
me.

If you enjoy this podcast, take
the time to leave a review on

Spotify or Apple Podcast.
You will also find a detailed

transcript of this episode on
mafiadrinks.substack.com.

Where it gets?
Pre release 24 hours before

other platforms.
Today's guest stays guster

extraordinaire, brand builder
for beverages and brands are the

build bottom up guy, Chris
Maffeo.

Welcome peace.
Thank you for taking the time

and joining me.
Thank you, Philip.

Birthday.
It's it's a great honour to have

you because you're probably not,
not probably.

You are the person that
introduced me to this kind of

reporting back into the four or
five years ago.

So you were the first one when I
tested the mic and then I

started to get to get used to it
and then I started to lag it and

then I started my podcast.
So it's so you are guilty or

it's thanks to.
You, I'm proud, actually, mostly

guilty.
I feel proud.

So Chris, can you very quickly
introduce yourself from where

you started or how you ended up
as a podcaster, beverage expert,

And by the way, why Czech
Republic and so on?

OK, so I'll try to be very
quick.

So I start them originally from
Rome, born and raised during my

university.
These years I was a sales guy in

in Rome, in the entree.
I was selling Internet

advertising for bars and
restaurants in a time when my

customers didn't have an e-mail
address and they were confusing

websites with emails.
So it was a quite a journey.

And when and in a time in which
there was no Google Maps and you

still have the map in your car
like a paper map and then you

were trying to memorize streets.
So that that's our generation of

sales now.
Then I graduated, I, I got a

grant for a thesis abroad, so I
moved to Antwerp.

I did something totally
different because it wasn't

sustainable logistics on the
port at the Portalanters.

So nothing to do with marketing
because there was a 2 long line

to get a degree in marketing and
economics so on.

I I keep that.
I didn't want to wait two years

and then I moved to Finland.
I work in a branding agency that

was focusing on BTL palette
wraps and you know, wobblers and

shelf stoppers and all those
kind of beautiful things in my

supermarkets and in on trade on
glorifiers and so on.

And then I moved to Stockholm
where I worked in a branding

agency where we were actually
doing branded NT VS and so on.

And back then it was always like
with also spirit brands and beer

brands and so on.
Until then on out of many

circumstances, I will explain a
longer time one day.

There is actually the first
podcast they explain it there

on, on, on mine.
I ended up in in Prague and

Czech Republic.
So actually in Bilson back then,

because I was working for SCB
Miller where the export

department was based in Pearson
at the actual brewery and then I

was doing marketing for many
things.

So international marketing
manager on Petrolina Cazurro,

launching it pretty much
everywhere in Europe and the

Middle East to then working on
Pearson as a brand in the

Nordics Country manager.
Then in then I moved to

Carlsberg after that issue with
us on here doing the same thing

about entering cities with a
premium portfolio on how to work

with third parties.
And then I opened my own

company.
So must have drinks just before

COVID, just in time, perfect
timing.

And and then and then I started
I'm, I'm consulting what I

always called the bottom up
trade.

So building brands from the
bottom up is my mantra.

And I thought it would be very
on trade driven, but actually

it's bottom up driven.
So also about two shops, wine

shops and all the places in
which there is somebody that can

help you to tell the story of
the brand and build the brand

where there's not only a
transaction, but actually there

is some brand building involved
and he may put in the

foundations in place on the
brand building journey.

So in a wrap, my experience is
basically working mainly with

third parties, so never having
your own units to actually do

the the things and so how you
are able to actually transmit

and transform and translate that
message to people that don't

necessarily care as much as you
do.

Yeah.
In fact, working with third

parties, I want it more
difficult because the reason

that necessary that corporate
buying which is we have to do

something because of course they
have a gazillion other

priorities.
Very often interparty

distributors what are very good
at mostly moving boxes by the

way.
So the branding part, it's what

always gets into the middle of
very many discussion.

Now I had fantastic distributors
who were exceptional brand

builders, but that's more of the
exception than the norm in the

beverage with alcoholic and non
alcoholic distributions of

drinks.
I think we will spend a bit of

time later discussing about the
how brands are built

automatically because it's a
very interesting subject, but I

want to start our conversation
by focusing on the top down the

strategy.
OK.

So I'm asking my yes on the
podcast as a first question,

what is a good strategy?
And do you have examples of what

is a good strategy?
So that's that's $1,000,000

question.
That's that's probably not I'm.

Trying.
I think a good, I think a good

strategy is first of all,
knowing, having a sharp focus on

what you want to do and also
knowing what you don't want to

do.
Because sometimes it's also

about it can also start from the
negative.

Now it can start from the no, I
don't want to do this.

We are not this, we are not
this, we're not this.

So we are this, you know, or if
we are this and we are not doing

this.
And what I would say with

strategies also like one that is
simple to translate as I

mentioned before, like on all
the steps, all the chain, all

the links of the chain where
there is from a marketing

director to a marketing manager
to a brand manager, where there

is from AC director to a key
account manager to a customer,

all the steps of the chain.
So that people really understand

OK, this brand means this and I
execute it this way.

And I think in in my consulting
practice actually, when you have

companies that don't have a lot
of experience in building

brands, the first key step it's
working with them to identify

what they should not do.
That's usually.

So I understand there's a
feeling that the negative space

or what, what is the border and
then we focus on what to do.

But you mentioned something
which is interesting about what

it is and what is not.
Do you have examples of good

strategies?
Something that comes to mind and

this is a good?
Strategy I would say like in my

previous life, so to say Peroni
for example, that is a great

strategy.
They they were doing a great

strategy.
We were doing a great strategy

in the sense that it was simple
to actually say, OK, we are.

We were always saying we're not
a beer, we are Italian style in

a bottle.
So we were taking all the cues

of what everybody knows about
the make in Italy and then we

were applying it to the beer
world.

So you were not competing beer
on beer.

You were not competing.
It was more of a lifestyle kind

of choice, which is very similar
by the way.

Another good example is with the
Streets or Campari.

You work there so you know much
better than me.

But for me, it's things, it's a
bit counterintuitive because for

me, brands that have a great
strategy are the brands that you

may also think they are a little
bit boring in a way, so that

they are always doing that
forever.

So when you think of a brand
that is 20 years ago, they were

doing the same thing that you
see today.

Some fancy marketers may think
that's boring, like they always

do the same thing.
But for me, that's a great

example of a great strategy
because that's a, that means

that first of all, if it's not
broken, don't fix it.

And then also it takes time to
actually embedded into the mind

of consumers, of customers, of
people around the world.

That is what a great strategy is
for me.

And also that needs to be, and
this is what I do daily.

It's, it needs to be translated
into a commercial proposition.

So what does that brand means in
terms of outlets?

So I, where do I expect to see
that brand?

So I expected to see in a modern
Italian restaurant.

I expected to see in a stylish
bar.

If we are talking about, I don't
know, Italian summers and

Italian seaside and so on.
I expected to be wherever there

is a terrorist or wherever there
is a a rooftop or then it's easy

to actually see those games.
Like if you were a car, what

would you be?
And if you were a flower, what

flower would you be?
If you were a bar or restaurant,

what would you be?
And if everybody in the room can

answer that question, then it
means that the strategy is very

clear and then it's easy to
execute it.

So what I take away from your
example here, which I think it's

very important is that
consistency across.

No, we always think as marketers
of consistency across channels,

across media, but it's actually
consistency in time.

Trying to be repetitive is
boring, but it actually

amplifies in the long term what
you stand and does the brand

building for you.
And the other part, which is

actually incredibly important is
the as simple as executable

dimension, which is, which is
what I think a lot of marketers

forget often is it a good
marketing strategy?

It's whether you have direct or
indirect distributors that

doesn't matter.
But a good marketing strategy is

often executed in food and
marriages and in consumer goods

by third parties, by your
commercial teams, by trade

marketing of a customer, of the
customer.

Then message needs to be simple
enough to be correctly

translated in the languages of
the various functions in the

various companies.
And you know, and sometimes you

have strategies which are
incredibly beautiful between

quote UN quote, but then you
know that they're not going to

pick it through the door because
nobody's going to be able to

actually it's and I think you
those two key dimensions are

very important consistency in
time and needs to be executable

and easy to execute.
Absolutely, 100%.

And also it's also like you, you
raised it there like there is a

point there is often a
misunderstanding about the

thing, let's say the thread
between the strategy and the

execution.
But if the strategy is bad, the

execution can be perfectly
aligned to the strategy, which

is great in terms of alignment,
but not in terms of actual

execution.
So it will not work.

But then maybe all the team gets
the bonus because the strategy

was applied perfectly.
It was just like a really best

strategy, but it was applied
exactly perfect.

If you have a house and there is
a fold in the wall and it's it's

perfectly done.
The building collapsed.

So it was perfectly according to
the plan on paper, like it was

supposed to fall very soon after
that.

Pause for a second on that
because sometimes it's hard to

understand what is strategy,
what is execution in a sense, is

it a good, how do you say it's a
good strategy or it's a good

execution?
Or sometimes me and discuss and

we have done it before offline,
we discussed about a brand and

we think what the hell are they
doing?

Why are they doing that?
What was their objective?

How do we contextualise that?
What what gives you an moment

when when you see an execution
and then you realise it's a very

good strategy and what doesn't?
I think what from my perspective

at least, it's like what I what
I see on rent and this is like

all across.
I think it's when I see, I don't

know, an adverts or a shop in
shop or whatever that could be

like the that is visible to me
as a consumer, not as a not as

an advisor or as somebody
working in the company.

And then I can assume what the
strategy is.

I think those that's the the
beautiful executed one, because

it's OK, I see that one and then
I understand what it means.

So like a great example is what
I saw.

I was in London last last week
and I saw in the, in the, in the

underground, there was the lucky
sayings, the non alcoholic beer.

They started to do billboards
and there was this, I think they

got even some awards.
They there is a there is one

with a young nun that is looking
up and the tagline says lead me

not into temptation.
And then you really see that

even if you don't know what that
like you're saying it is a non

alcoholic beer and you can
assume it because that copy

makes you think and then it
goes, it makes you go back to

the bottle in on the, the
portrait of that bottle.

And then you will understand
what you're talking about.

No, So this is for example,
something that struck me because

I had heard about it also, I saw
some articles in the media and

then I was like, wow, this is
really smart.

This is really cool because then
I really see what it is about.

I think these are the kind of
I'm also a bit of empiricist,

like I, I'm a bottle mark guy.
I'm a bottle mark guy.

So for me, it's always, always
have to look at the experience

and then go back to the strategy
on what it is.

And sometimes we could even be
like something that a lot of

stuff seems to be disconnected.
But actually then we leads into

something that, you know, but
those are the most, the the more

difficult ones.
And those are not my favorite

strategies because then when I
need to make too many

assumptions and speak to the
people working in those

companies to understand it, then
it means that it's not here.

I know I agree by experience.
When when the clients takes more

than 30 seconds to explain what
they want to do, I start

thinking how they're going to
how they think they're going to

be.
And there there is a guy that I

was listening on a podcast and
he was like, when, whenever you

start saying, what do you do?
And it's, Oh, it's going to be

complicated.
What I do is, no, it's not

complicated.
It's just like you, you don't

know how to explain it.
It's, it's quite simple, but

it's just like, and I'm guilty
of that as well.

Sometimes I start to abstractly
explain what I do.

And then it made me think when I
was, I still remember the

traffic light at which I was
standing when I listened when I

heard that.
And I was like shit this is

really need to mail it because
it's really not clear to what to

myself 1st and if you don't have
it clear yourself you're going

to work 24/7 but you may not be
clear in exactly what to do

what.
You do.

I think that there is also what
they called the Raghu model, in

the sense that to cook a good
Raghu you'll need at least 12

hours.
So there is a transformation

process that takes time, but
sometimes there are Lagos whose

ingredients are not good enough.
So after 12, you know nowhere to

be eatable in that sense.
And then, but I agree, when it's

ready, it needs to be quicker
and simple to describe in that

sense.
But we all transform and people

try and move along.
So sometimes this process is

more ongoing than it is.
Oh, I reach an end state and

this is it.
No, absolutely.

And it's funny what you say
because it's I I like that I was

minded because sometimes I find
my own old notes, like in some I

don't know, in some old file and
something and then I think I

named it.
Now it's like, I think it's

really like this.
And then I start writing and

then I find after a day, I find
an old script or something and

it's exactly the same thing.
And I'm like, but this is from

four years ago.
What have I done in four years?

Now?
It's just because it's this

iteration.
And then you need that, that 12,

those 12 hours so that I go
because you really need to make

sure that they could, you have
stopped at 8 hours, maybe would

have been exactly the same
result.

But now you are sure that like
you, you know what you do and

you know how to explain.
Not exactly exactly.

Which brings me to my next say
question, because we're talking

about time.
And one of the aspects I

strangled the most in recent
times is to create the right

expectations on how long the
process takes when we're talking

about brand building and
consumer and food and beverages.

And there is always, first of
all, a question regarding the

money because yes, the
completely lack of resources,

it's going to make the process
much, much longer, OK?

But putting a lot of money into
marketing activation or brand

building in a very period, short
period of time may not actually

resolve the problem at all.
Because building a brand, it's

pretty much like cooking like oh
or doing a Texan barbecues.

Certain meats need to cook for
what, 12 hours of 16 hours?

Four hours, 3 hours?
It takes time.

And no matter how much money do
you put on it for, you can't

work time.
You risk of having a brand which

has tons of awareness but no
meaning whatsoever associated to

it.
So based on your experience,

what on the, let's say, customer
and on the advisor side, what's

the minimum time or how do you
create expectations with brand

builders?
How long is going to take for a

beverage brand to start having
some real brand features beyond

the liquid and beyond the
product?

That's a great question because
it's let's say there is no not a

perfect science.
So it's tough to put a number

right.
But I understand your question

is more like to get a sense of
what we mean.

I would say that a minimum.
But I want a sense of your

experience.
What?

A minimal would be doing the
same things for minimum five

years.
I would say if I had to say a

number, like we always say, it
takes 20 years to make an

overnight success.
I copied that from Paulette

going from a few spirits like
when I heard you for the first

time and and I used it ever
since.

But OK, some brands may take 10
some 12,014 twenty years as an

indication.
Now let's use that.

But if you don't do the same
thing for at least five years,

five seasons, 5 brand plans, I
don't think you can expect to

even understand if it works or
not.

It it doesn't necessarily mean
it will work, but you start to

get a sense does it work or it
doesn't work?

But then it would go up to let's
say 10 years.

Then of course, after a couple
of years, you could start to get

the first gap feeling and say it
seems to be working from what I

see.
But then it's always like

really, if you go when I see it,
I, I work for many brands that

sometimes when I talk to random
people, consumers and, and I

mentioned the brand I'm working
for at that time.

They mentioned that I don't know
either a campaign or a slogan or

something.
That was like 20 years ago or 15

years ago, but it has changed.
And then I feel funny to say,

no, that's not the strategy
anymore.

Like we do something else now,
but still like you see the old

adverts, like old POS material
in bars, all things, and they

steal because that was sticky.
And that probably took them, I

don't know, 30 years to embed
it.

And now in five years you want
to see the change and then you

want to see and then the
management comes in and said

that, but we don't do that
anymore.

Watch out.
I don't want to see that in my

bars And explain to them they've
been doing it, that they own

this club for 20 years and now
you want to change all their

stuff.
Feel free to change it if that's

what you want to do.
And again, like to your previous

point about the money, I totally
agree.

It's for me it's always better
to start with little money.

And I made this experience like
start building brands with very

little budgets, Like we had
€50,000 in a market up to

millions or like in other
companies having millions to

start with because you got sign
in from the management and you

get really like big millions to
enter a city and it doesn't go

with the money.
It's so that's what I always say

to small brand owners.
I said don't wish for money that

you don't actually want because
you wouldn't know if you don't

know what you're doing now, you
wouldn't know what to do with if

I gave you 20 times the money
that you have today, you would

just waste them.
You will start hiring around the

people and you have never sold
the bottle yourself.

You would start like having
fancy design agency, branding

agencies, other guys in the
agency, they would start having

meetings in line, so sleeping
nice cocktails during the

meeting.
And you wouldn't do what you're

actually doing, which is opening
the mood of your car and taking

that case and opening it because
the customer wanted one bottle

and not one case at the
beginning.

So that is a trick.
My first company was proctoring

Enmore, which is probably one of
the largest advertisers in the

world.
But what I really learned in my

career is that frugality drives
stability.

Because what happens is that
what you're saying when you have

to watch my and by the way, when
they give you 1,000,000 bucks to

do the plan, you're going to
spend 1,000,000 bucks to the

blood screen regardless.
Yeah, we've got the money, We've

got to spend it.
And so you're going to start

doing so many things beyond what
is useful just because you have

the money.
And then exactly you're going to

end up sipping cocktails in the
fullest bar in town and wow,

oops, I forgot I had a meeting
with or I need to I needed to do

this.
So you forget who was buying it

was consuming the brother.
And it's very easy to we've seen

that happen so many times.
And then by the way, after six

months, everybody entirely
moved.

So change your strategy like
whoa, Absolutely, because.

Sometimes the little money.
Not sometimes.

Most of the time little money
can guide you.

Even if you are not sharp as a
strategist, the little money

will make you sharp because then
you will know that all of a

sudden, imagine like you've got
ten €10,000 no and you want to

do 7 things.
Then you will start to

understand that you've got like
€1000 or €2000 to do something

and €300 to do something else
and then all of a sudden you

will skip it because it's like
it.

What the hell do I do with €300?
What the hell do I do with €1000

here?
So it will make you sharp

because then he would tell you,
OK, let's put €10,000 on this

one because we really believe in
it.

No, But then if you multiply
that one and you make it a

million, then those seven things
you wanted to do, you are able

to do them because $1,000,000,
it's, it's doable divided by 7.

So you will basically start to
waste money on those other six

things that when you had no
money, you decided sharply and

cleverly not to do.
Now, of course, you have to pick

the right one.
Of course I'm not, I'm not, I'm

oversimplifying.
But at the same time it makes

you think.
And then you say, actually,

let's go be on this one rather
than spreading myself the thing.

And I've done that mistake in
the past myself.

That's why I speak like I'm not
just preaching.

It's just like thinking, OK,
let's do a little bit of this, a

little bit of this, a little bit
of that.

But then nobody understand what
you've done because you've done

one small event, one small
training, some paying, one small

sponsorship, and then all of a
sudden there's OK, I'm putting

everything together.
Nothing made an impact, yes.

Exactly.
In fact my first poster

campaign, I remember still
having the that meeting where he

explained to me my budget
allocation with the metaphor of

the short duvet says if you pull
it too much towards your nose,

you're going to cover your feet.
So Bismarck, which direction you

bullet?
Because you can do both things.

Otherwise you're going.
To be cold on your feet and cold

in on your nose.
Very simply so.

But we'll all be.
It's something that you learn by

experience and on the learning
by experience, there is another

aspect which we touched briefly,
which is the weak seniors, the

small signs that you are either
in the first five years that

you're either going in the right
direction or you're not.

Based on your experience, what
are these stingles you should be

looking for?
I think I'm I'm a.

Big fan of this, kind of like
small experiments, as I said,

like my empiricists also.
So like before I used to think,

OK, like I think this works and
then I roll it out and then I'll

see if it works, you know?
Now what I do since a few years

is that I say let's test it in,
I don't know, like 5 bars.

Let's see.
How that works in that's in

those five bars and then let's
create the strategy empirically,

and then let's roll it out to
the next level.

But you don't go from 5 to 100.
You go to five to 10 to 15.

Then you go back.
Then maybe it doesn't work.

It only works in 15.
When you expand it to 20, it

doesn't work anymore.
So then you know what to do.

And this small experiment, which
is basically, I was reading an

article about, for example, how
companies like in, in tech, do

these like Spotify or this kind
of company, they don't roll out

a new update to all consumers at
once.

Like they rolled it out slowly
to 1 country.

To some people, you know, I may
have a Spotify today that looks

very different from yours
because we're in two different

countries.
And then when they see that he

works in this country, then they
roll it out to another country

as well.
And this is also the thing

because that is the, the most
important thing.

Now the the very important
caveat to that, because I've

seen it, because I've worked in
many companies across markets,

there is always this kind of lie
or.

White lie let's.
Call it like between countries.

No.
So as you test something, you

will not explain to me that it
works.

So you sell it to me like it
works in those five outlets.

Then somebody comes to me.
Oh, but you should also do it in

Czech Republic, because in
Poland it works perfectly.

Because I spoke to Philip Beto
and he is impressed.

And then you start this vicious
circle of not true things

because they then and then
periodical experiment didn't

really function well.
But you start to sell the early

signs too soon, too quickly to
other markets.

And then all of a sudden, the US
spreaded this experiment to so

many countries that then
mentally you think it must work,

you know, so automatically you
think that's the word it.

Must work.
You don't have any choice.

It's just the crazy guy.
On the calculator, like like

hitting the numbers that, you
know, like redoing the

calculation 70 times again, the
number never comes.

No.
And so this is the thing that

it's very important to really
assess this experiment and not

go too far too quickly and also
be very honest, which leads to

another point that I, I'm
derating a little bit, which is

about incentivizing failure to
success.

God bless.
Because.

Otherwise, like if the the KPI
was tell me what doesn't work in

those five outlets, be honest
and you would be rewarded for

showing those weaknesses, then
it all of a sudden it would be

these are the things that don't
work.

So let's fix it this way.
But then if you incentivize

success right now, many outlets
was a success out of those five,

of course 54.9.
Why?

Why if we're putting that, why
not talk?

No, I think it's it's a good
inside.

That's part of the problem on
the KPI side.

We always try to build success
driven KPI's, forgetting that

success in the interaction in
some of many failures.

Because that's the.
Only way you succeed by getting

it wrong until you actually get
it right.

And it's a bit related process
the duration which happens in

many businesses.
But yeah, in terms of then how

do you translate that to
execution?

Meaning I like your approach of
being empirical.

Bottom up, try 5 at learn,
really learn well.

Don't try to over impress
yourself or your ego, but learn

from those files and then make
it 10.

So how do you?
Scale this up.

Really.
And how do you know where your

strategy, not your execution.
Your strategy needs fine tuning.

And that's again like.
A very interesting 1 like you

need to I think you need to
select those experiments in a

way you of course you go with
educated because we're not a

double aroused as the
empiricists were saying we are.

We had experience like I
remember one of the previous

times we we chapter on a record
bill.

You were talking about your must
unlearn before learning your

things.
No, So it's tough.

Let's stop.
That's a tough one to unlearn

things.
They're tough because you really

need to go with open eyes and
really like this out-of-the-box,

not the written in ACV, but
really an out-of-the-box

approach now.
So of course you go there with

some gut feel that you cannot
really explain, but you have

seen it in your experience,
you've seen it in other

countries, you've seen it.
So you go there with already

some assumptions into that
experiment and then you can

direct it.
But you need to have this kind

of different bunch of topologies
of outlets, different bunch of

things because otherwise it may
work only in certain places now.

And then once that should do
that, then you can actually say,

OK, let's go.
Full lean on this one.

Because then you're you approach
shape your it's like an Amex to

a contract.
Now you have old strategy and

then you can pull the Amex to
that old strategy and say

actually given what worked in
the previous strategy and what

didn't work in the previous
strategy, I seen that this could

be a nice update point 1.2 and
that and then you can make you

can embed that into that
strategy and then you would roll

it out again.
But you need to have some solid

foundations to actually be able
to say that.

And that's when it comes to like
what we have been discussing

before about how much money you
have because it's easy to make

experiments on €5000 budget.
It's a little bit more difficult

to make it on 5 million budget.
Now there is a little bit more

at stake, you know.
So there are more.

There are.
More expectations than

experiments coming out of a 5
million budget.

Exactly.
Exactly.

So then in in that one like one,
one point is also like when you

talk about for example,
portfolio, maybe you can be a

little bit more experimental
with smaller brands that are

trying to get the foot in the
door in the market.

And then you can be a little bit
more conservative in in the

bigger brands.
And that's when it comes to the

fact that like these all these
things with brands about

rejuvenation and trying to do
things and and so on.

Sometimes it's like it that the
brand has such a size that

probably you cannot really do
much with it anymore.

Like you can try to put a patch
on the elbow, there is a hole in

your jumper, but probably you
need a new jumper at some point.

So keep that jumper and try to
buy like something else.

Exactly for this.
Reductions because that is also

like the other big points that I
see very often is about brand

owners or brand managers or
whoever they are like wanting,

expecting a little bit too much
from certain things and certain

brands that you cannot get
anymore for instance, now

because you don't know what you
can do about it.

So then again, if you are
consistent and probably if you

had not changed all these things
because brands that fade away,

usually my experience now I'm
talking more qualitatively, but

they are the brands that that
try to change things too often.

Yes.
Or they are the brands who,

often subsidizing emerging
brands, were this shiny little

things that suddenly become the
king or queen of the portfolio.

And you forget who's paying for
the bills, by the way.

Exactly.
So this is true.

Larger probably organizations
than in smaller ones and that

maybe.
That bigger brand is fading

because actually all those
investment were actually

redirected to, you know that
that's the one.

It's like the good company and
the bad company.

You know, there is one company
that has all the debts and the

other company gets only the
profits.

And I I I did a a.
Project few years back where I'm

not going to say which is the
customer, but they have a

portfolio brands and the the
clean side that they came to me

with was we are investing all
the money into this brand but

it's not growing, it's actually
losing market share whereas all

the other brands in the
portfolio are actually growing

much faster.
So give us a ration to keep

investing.
And then what I did that they

wanted a strategic project top
down, but I went bottom up also

and did the diagnostic or what
they were actually executing.

And basically the only money
that went into the brand which I

was focusing on.
So the big towel to milk was in

retail for match a mix type of
promotion.

So this brand was actually
paying for everybody sells group

and then of course it's fading
because you're not really

spending the money.
But besides that, what I wanted

to touch with you was on, on a
separate topic, which came out

from the discussion still on the
execution.

Because sometimes you have,
you're empirically building

bottom up, you're doing your
experiments and then it turns

out that the buyer of a big
chain comes and drink in the bar

and OK, I want to list you.
In my chain.

I want your vodka.
I want your soda.

I want your tonic.
I want you.

There are sometimes.
Opportunities which disrupt your

empirical process.
Do you have a?

Sense of when do you say yes and
when do you say no?

This is the.
This is the.

Great one because I face this
like very often on on customers

and you know, and clients and.
I always say.

That you know, like the one you
know, you could say yes to the

things that you will not regret
in the future if you know that

by doing that, it's a little,
it's a little derailed.

It doesn't take away your
resources.

It doesn't read which resources,
probably even mental resources,

by the way, not only money and
time and people focus force,

yeah, force.
And then if what happens by

doing that will not jeopardize
the future for you, because if

then by doing that, you're
basically knows relevance with

other clients, You lose
reputation with your clients

because of the sudden you are a
mainstream brand.

That's like you were doing like
fancy things in fancy bars and

then all of a sudden like you
are cheap on promo in, in a very

busy outlet chain and so on.
And then people don't want to,

then you need to watch out.
Now The thing is that, and I

remember this one, I always, I
often said tell the story that

it, it was in, in a country.
I won't say the, the, the, the

country.
We were doing this kind of

really good things with the top
outlet in that city.

And then at the same time our
distributor was actually doing

some promotion to get some
volumes.

What I say is there is a very
thin line here because then this

guy went with his daughter to, I
don't know, like some sport

events in a small town in this
country.

And the only restaurant that was
there was a very basic that was

part of this chain where we were
doing this table talkers, very

basic promotion.
And then he sent me a photo and

his what the hell is this man?
Like we're doing all the fancy

things with the coolest people
in the country.

And then you do this kind of
like shitty promo thing.

And then I told him and I said,
you know what, First of all, I

don't know if it's so shitty,
why are you eating there?

Then probably you're not as cool
as you think you are or, or that

place is not as bad as you think
if you're eating there because

maybe within the relevance of
that small town that's actually

the five star holder for dead
standard.

No.
And then we started laughing

about him and he's OK, you got
me there.

No.
So now I'm not saying I was

right and he was wrong, but it's
a thin line in which you have to

actually say how are you judging
things?

No, because to a certain extent
that wasn't like a super busy

kind of thing.
It was just like that was our

footing, the door to expand
distribution outside of the

capital city.
And those are the kind of

outlets you have in those
smaller towns.

You don't have a fancy Bill
Goodman or Michelin star venue

very often, but you have a
restaurant there now.

Not that you're selling spirits
in McDonald's, but sometimes

you've been there.
Not you go to such a small town

that McDonald's is actually the
safe choice to eat because it's

like you look at the restaurant
and you say, I'm going to get

sick in nine out of 10 on these
places.

So I'd rather trust McDonald.
They're probably like from

health and safety and food
safety.

It's probably much better than
these other very crappy

restaurants out there.
So in sometimes it can be a good

choice.
So that's why like sometimes

there's also like a lot of smart
comments by people you just

judging and pointing fingers at
things.

But then when you actually
really take it from a bird eye

view, then you say actually, OK,
it makes sense, but you always

have to be able to justify and
explain it.

Yeah, I think in my.
Mind, it's always I like to say

it's, it's a fractal geometry,
it's not linear.

There are places which are
borderline and and that's always

especially when you go from a
bottom up, top down approach.

If you were going through a
bottom up, it probably and say

OK, I have 11 places in the
city, I don't want to do any of

them or what.
But when you go top down, your

gain of sand there might be on a
borderline out there.

Does that happen all the time?
Absolutely.

Absolutely.
And, and, and that, that's very

crucial to, to, to understand
that it's, it ultimately, I

believe, like the invisible
hands.

Fixes.
Things somehow, you know, bigger

than if you list that brand in
that restaurant on an even on a

promo doesn't sell, which was
the wrong restaurant.

It's like that's the that's the
invisible hand.

But then if you follow a sudden
like it's selling well, then

maybe it's the right time to
increase distribution because

then maybe even at that level of
restaurants and bars, it works.

So then maybe that's the time
for you to actually sense the

market and see maybe now is the
time to enlarge the distribution

and and extend it.
I I.

Have a very similar good example
to this story which is the

Galvanina here in Poland.
In the north of the country

there is a kebab rest and I was
thinking which buys Galvanina by

the way, you know, it sells to
the equivalent of €6 a bottom in

the bar.
So it seemed the right price.

And I was thinking, come on
guys, why the hell are we in the

kebab plane?
And then basically, and this is

a luxurious place, OK?
And they do 6 pallets of sodas

in the season.
They're open three months a

year, six pallets.
I don't think any other

restaurant does, not even a
pallet.

These guys alone, in three
months there were six pallets

and they said they buy it full
price and they sell it full

price.
Sometimes you are surprised, but

sometimes here you have the very
fashion driven place and then

they buy from you like 5 bottles
a year and it's a pain to

deliver it to them.
It's a pain.

No, it's not.
Good the money.

Paid.
So here's why.

I understand complete.
That's all for today.

Remember, this is a two-part
episode 72 and 73, so feel free

to listen to both one.
Last thing.

If you enjoy this podcast,
please leave a review, share it

with friends, and remember that
brands are built bottom up.