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The Fintech Marketing Lab is a podcast where Araminta Robertson, Managing Director at Mint Studios, explores, experiments, and breaks down how fintech marketing actually works in practice.
Intro: If you asked 10 people at
your company what your product
does, you'd probably get 10
slightly different answers.
And each one probably sounds fine
on its own, but together they kind
of muddy the water, especially
on sales calls on your website.
And now, uh, in what l LMS say about
you, keeping everyone on the same page.
It's just one of the many jobs
a great product marketer owns.
And in our conversation today with
Brian McCarty, he shares his fix.
And we get kind of that
into that in the episode.
Bryan has spent about 15 years
in FinTech product marketing.
He was the first product
marketing manager at au.
He then built the product
marketing function from scratch at
Hummingbird, the compliance platform.
And at Orum he started out as
director of marketing and ended
up running the whole product team.
Today he's doing product marketing at
Lead Bank, the FDIC insured API first
banking as a service platform that
fintechs used to add accounts, payments,
cards, and lending to their own products.
They raised 70 million at
Series B, last year at a $1.47
billion valuation.
And in this episode, we get into the one
page messaging house he uses to get an
entire company on the same page, how to
get product marketing into the roadmap
early, including a little thing that he
adds to every PRD, the money 2020 donut
shop play that he helped execute our
orum and how that tied back to pipeline.
And finally, how he's using AI and
different bots on in his work as product
market share without losing, you know,
the, the writing skill behind it.
Let's get to the conversation.
Generic intro: You are listening to
the FinTech Marketing Lab podcast.
I'm Arminta from Mint Studios, a
content marketing agency specialized
in the FinTech space, and this
podcast is where we experiment,
explore, and break down how FinTech
marketing actually works in practice.
Each episode I talk with top FinTech
marketers about what they're testing,
what they're learning, and how
they're pushing the boundaries of
brand strategy and team building.
With that, let's get into today's episode.
Araminta Robertson: Amazing.
So the first question I wanna ask you,
Bryan, is that you have shifted quite a
lot between product marketing and product
marketing, and that's kind of the theme
that I wanna focus on in this episode.
So I'd love to hear, like, from your
perspective what made you switch
between the two, and now you're in a
product marketing role, What do you
like about that role and why do you
stick to the product side of things?
Bryan McCarty: Yeah, great question.
folks who don't know me, looked
at LinkedIn titles and all
that, it can be like, whoa.
He is jumped around a lot.
But really it's been a
very natural progression.
Like I very much started my career
in tech as a product marketer at
early stage startup ban back in the
day, a digital banking platfOrum.
And when you join a startup,
like regardless of your
title, you do a lot of things.
So even though like I was entering as this
product marketing manager, managing our
positioning and just how we do product
launches, like I was also learning
about events and setting up our trade
show booths and, manning the booth.
I was working with a local
SEO agency doing some demand
gen spend, like super small.
So like you're learning all these
things, but like my roots, I very
much came up as a product marketer.
I've worked and reported
directly to technical founders.
I was surrounded by developers,
engineers, so I've always gravitated
towards product marketing, right?
I'd say because of that experience,
it allowed me then to branch
out and I actually became a
product manager for a little bit.
And then ultimately kinda
came back to marketing.
And I would say even as I've been director
of marketing, I've always still been
the one doing the product marketing bit.
I'd say no matter what your title is
as a marketing leader, you kind of have
something that you, as your special
sauce that you kinda lean in towards.
And then maybe you have a team
that's doing the other things or
you're working with agencies or
contractors or whatever it may be.
So my strong suit, the thing that
I've kind of always loved, has
always been product marketing.
And then I'm just filling those other gaps
with, again, either, agencies I'm working
with or filling out that team accordingly.
But even when my title's been,
head of marketing, director of
marketing, like I still love to
hold onto the product marketing.
I just, that's the part and the
bit that I've always enjoyed.
Araminta Robertson:
Yeah, I can understand.
They call it the T shape marketer, right?
So every marketer's got that, like
one skill that they have or that they
love, and then everything else is
kind of like generalist a little bit.
Uh,
Bryan McCarty: right.
And you can't always tell from the
title, but it's like when you dig in and
work with that person, it's like, oh,
okay, this person's, they demand gen.
That's where they came up.
That's what they're gonna own.
And that's kind of their specialty.
But yeah, mine's always
been product marketing.
Araminta Robertson: And how, like
sometimes I get marketers, more junior
marketers asking like, how did you
know what are some signs that maybe
you should become a product marketer?
Like say you love marketing,
but you're wondering if maybe you
should get into product marketing
and maybe this is your thing.
Like what are the Yeah.
The signs that this is maybe
the specialty for this person.
Bryan McCarty: a great question.
I would, as I was coming up, long time
ago and doing events and other things,
it was always interesting, but I
always gravitated towards, I wanted to
understand like how our, the software
we are building actually worked.
And I found myself thinking of features
or the closer I got to our customers
is like, oh, I've heard this customer,
talk about this thing they really
want, and then I'd be over there
like talking to the engineers and the
designers about this customer call.
I just came off of like, Hey, this
customer really needs this thing.
So like those things, like, I was
just naturally like, I found myself
wanting to unblock our customers
and I was always thinking of like,
features that we should be building.
So if your mind gravitates towards
that, like that's a great sign that
you should head down the product.
Marketing product marketers tend to
be a little bit closer to the roadmap,
closer to working hand in hand with
product managers, developers, engineers.
Whereas if you're off running
events, there's a lot of
joy and, fun doing that too.
But you're a little further away from
like, actually the software that,
that's being built behind the scenes.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Or if maybe you're really, you love like
the content side of things, which is what
we're more, or I am like the content.
That's my tea.
But also I agree with you.
I love the features.
Content also has an element of features.
'cause you have to understand them
really deeply and how they solve specific
pain points in order to create that.
And then you've also got, if you're
someone who loves like demand gen or
like seeing, ROI spend from Google
Ads or whatever, like, there's so
many different elements to that.
And if you love all of
those things, well maybe
Bryan McCarty: Go work
for a startup and you
Araminta Robertson: Yeah, exactly.
Bryan McCarty: to do a
little bit of everything.
Araminta Robertson: do everything.
Bryan McCarty: That's right.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah,
that's a good tip.
So, yeah, let's talk about
product roadmap a little bit.
you can talk about maybe how you
do this at Lead, but also, or how
you did it previously at Orum.
So feel free to, reference, both
what was your role in the roadmap?
where would you get started and What
part fit did you do, I guess, or, yeah.
Bryan McCarty: Yeah, great question.
So I'll reference at Orum 'cause it was
interesting 'cause I headed up marketing.
I joined Orum and headed up marketing,
but then eventually I led product as well.
So there's kind of, over the couple
years, two and a half years I was
there, there's this natural progression
of me leading marketing, doing,
really taking product marketing from
zero to one, doing product launches.
And then with that, getting closer and
closer to our customers and doing lots
of customer insight calls and leading
research with the product manager.
So I was kinda over here leading
marketing and then we had some junior PMs.
I was kinda helping usher down this path
of like user research and interviews and
insights, feeding that to the product org.
And then eventually I ended up kinda
leading the product org as well.
So I would, there's kind of this natural
progression of like, it started slow, of
like, Hey, let's just start doing user
calls and research, then let's actually
start building those into insights
and recommendations for the roadmap.
And then all of a sudden it was like
we were just had this machine that was
kind of feeding the product roadmap.
So over time it was a very natural
progression for me at Orum.
Araminta Robertson: And as a product
marketer, like now at Lead, like
where do you step in for that?
Bryan McCarty: Yeah, it's interesting.
I think I've been at Lead Now
six months and I'm still learning
like where my impact will be.
Like when I joined, there's kinda some
big rocks that I was pointed at right
away overhauling our documentation site.
So docs at Lead Do Bank,
that was one of 'em.
So I haven't gotten entirely
involved, but the thing I would say
is now documentation, for example,
is becoming an item on the roadmap.
I would say before I joined it maybe
it wasn't, it was very reactionary.
It was like the PMs were writing stuff
and putting it out there, but a lot
of times it was kinda after the fact.
So even that's a very small example,
but it's now when we're doing our
roadmap review, it's like there's a
column on there, there's an item on
there for what are we doing on our
doc site what content pieces, are we
going to, big brand new content guides?
Are we gonna get out this quarter?
So now we're starting to
have those conversations.
So that's a very subtle way.
We're starting to impact the roadmap
and I think over time that will just
become more and more as I work closer
and closer with the product org.
Araminta Robertson: And I guess in an
ideal situation, like ideal FinTech,
ideal roadmap and all that, where do you
think the product marketer fits into that?
Like where are they at the
beginning, middle and end?
Where should they sit?
Bryan McCarty: Yeah, I
think it is all three.
I think ideally you're doing product
markets are close to customers.
Obviously product managers are as
well, but like really synthesising
those insights and feeding that
into the product org to help make
infOrumed decisions about the roadmap
and where the business needs to go.
So that's the first part.
And then I'd say the middle because as
a product marker, hopefully those things
are then getting built and you're helping
to actually launch them and think about,
okay you guys are now building this.
What does it look like to actually
like, send this out into the world?
What does that launch look like?
And then hopefully this saysno,
this happened on the tail end.
It's like, okay, we launched this thing.
Like what did it do?
Did it drive the business forward?
Did it unblock things for?
So it really is like all three
and really depends on the
maturity of the organisation.
I've definitely been in spots where
you're only doing the middle part.
Like you are seen as a product
market just doing launches.
That's what you're there for.
And it's kind of on you to help, shape
that org and say like, oh, actually
product marketing can do so much more.
And, And that comes over time.
That comes with trust.
That comes with a lot of things.
But I'd say over time you ideally
wanna be impacting all three spots.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
what I often see is product
marketers are often too are
only involved towards the end.
Bryan McCarty: Yeah.
Araminta Robertson: I was gonna
ask like, say like why is it so
important to involve the product
marketer right from the beginning?
Like, at what step should you involve
them in the product roadmap or
feature launch or whatever it is?
And why is that so important?
Bryan McCarty: There's I've
witnessed this, that lead already.
And there's this we're learning as
I settle in as well, but like I have
access to it and I get the chance to
review PRDs in the early draught fOrum.
And maybe that's too early.
Some of that's just been my own
onboarding and understanding our
platfOrum and what we're building.
But even then, if I'm reading an early
draught of a product requirements
doc and kind of following that thing
along over the weeks and months that
it's being built, that just like
starts to register language for me.
And then fast forward a month when the
engineering and PM are talking about,
there's a simple example, but they're
talking about what they should call that
endpoint in an API they might come tap the
product manager 'cause it's a word they're
trying to decide like, should we call
this endpoint X or should we call it y?
And if you have that, you've kind of
been following along, you might have a
stronger opinion versus if you're just
coming into this conversation cold.
So it's more like you're kind
of tagging along if you can.
And that's not always possible.
We all have lots of things to do, but
it's like having awareness of what the
team's building so that when it comes
to these conversations, you can kind
of raise your hand and say like, Hey,
I have more of a macro view and I think
we should call this thing X because over
here we're talking about it this way.
And over here we're doing this.
And sometimes the product managers
and the engineers working on the
thing are so down in the weeds,
like they're just building the thing
that they need to get out the door.
They don't necessarily have that
macro view of how we're talking
about things out in the market or how
we're positioning it on the business
development side of the house or how
we're thinking about it at an event.
All these other things.
So I feel like the product marketer kind
of has this macro view and kind of can
connect the dots between all those things.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah,
Yeah, that makes sense.
And then would you also help
maybe put together that document
that product requirements doc?
Or would you maybe also like, because
I imagine at that stage you still need
someone who has a perspective of the
customer who's gonna say, look, this sub
feature doesn't make sense or whatever.
Like, at what's your input apart from the
wording for that you used as an example?
What is your other input that
you try and include there?
Bryan McCarty: Yeah, definitely.
And again, it depends on the org, but
at lead it's very welcome to comment,
make suggestions, but usually at top of
our PR ds there is a section of like,
who, what problem is this solving?
Right?
And it might even just be helping
that PM like reframe that.
They might have 18 bullet points
about the problem we're solving.
And you, as someone who does a lot
of writing as a product marketer,
you may be able to come in and really
sensitise those 18 bullets down to
like two really impactful sentences.
So it might even be that it's like you're
helping that pm better position his
or her product they're about to build.
So when they're tossing that PRD
around to exec teams or the head
of product, it's just more like
straightforward and like you're kind of
this working behind the scenes, helping
him or her like reposition things.
So that's one piece.
And then another piece that we,
a change we've made at Lead is
now there's an actual like launch
and comm section in the PRD.
So we're keeping that all together.
A lot of that existed before I showed
up, existed kind of retroactively,
and it was in different documents
and it was kind of after the fact.
Again, it sounds, it is very tactical,
it might sound very silly, but we're
now bundling that all together.
So as this PRD is making its way around
the very cross-functional teams now it's
very clear like, oh look, what's this
other tab that's called comms and launch?
So even other people, it's like a signal,
internal signal of like, there is a
plan and you can go glance at it and see
like, oh, they're starting to think about
the communications plan for this thing.
If that lives in a separate
document, maybe that's fine.
But then you're not giving that
awareness necessarily to the teams
as they're looking at the PRD.
So it's just a really soft, subtle way
to start signalling even internally,
like, Hey, we're thinking about this.
We're starting to think through
the activities that are gonna
go along with this launch.
Araminta Robertson: No I love tactical.
So, no, this is really helpful because
I think anyone who's listening who may
be considering product marketing or
new to it, it's a proper framework or
a proper, like actual step by step.
Like, here's how you can use it.
And even adding those two
tabs, you're totally right.
Like just, let's just already primes
people's brains to, okay, we need to
start thinking about this already.
So, yeah.
No, I love that.
Bryan McCarty: Yeah.
the other Thing I would add in is I'm
learning and I continuously learning
this, is that sometimes the internal
launch is, I don't know if more important
is the right word, but like, just
as important as the external launch.
And lead is not a huge organisation,
but Orum was very small, 50 people, 75
people going to now three, 400 people.
It feels like a big jump for me.
Even there's more, a lot of
more stakeholders, a lot more
people, and we all have our own
things that we're working on.
And so like having these internal
enablement sessions where you're literally
just taking the business development
team and our, the account management
team through the feature that's going
to launch in a few days or next week,
and showing them the guide that's up on
the doc site or, showing them a preview
of the email that's going to go out,
like giving them time and space to ask
questions before this thing goes out.
Super impactful.
And it's really easy to do, but you
have to slow down and like actual
schedule that enablement session,
invite the right people, record it,
share it out so others can watch.
And that's often I find again, just
product marketers are kind of that
glue that holds a lot of that together.
You, as the product marketer, may
not even be leading that session.
You might be having a product
manager who's doing most of the
talking, but you're scheduling it,
you're doing a little intro, you're
handing it over to him or her to
kind of talk through the new feature.
You're helping kind of
usher that thing along.
So that's another very tactical thing that
we're trying to get better at at lead.
And do.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
No, that's really good.
That was gonna kind of be my next
question, like any rituals or
any meetings that you have found,
because you're a synchronous,
are you a remote organisation or,
Bryan McCarty: remote.
Yep, exactly.
We have a few offices, but yeah I'm remote
and everyone I work with is, is remote.
Yep.
Araminta Robertson: So you have
to be very good at, like, you
have to be well organised and
know where all the documents are.
And I don't know if you use an notion
or whatever, but like you, you wanna
make sure it's all where it's meant
to be and all of these things.
So what are some, you've mentioned
a few already really helpful.
Any other like rituals or meetings
that you found have really helped to
make sure everyone's on the same page
and synced and yeah, there's no like
surprises when the product launches.
Bryan McCarty: Yeah there's two
other things that come to mind.
Not necessarily related to product
launches, but I would say there's,
we have a great meeting every other
week that is just a time and space.
It's uh, product design, our
account management team, and
we get to drive the agenda.
Our head of product organised it, but
like we get to anyone who's working
on something like you put a bullet on
the agenda of what you wanna share.
It's kind of this space to just share
something that you're working on.
And in a remote setting, again, that may
sound silly, but it's super important.
'cause again, you and a few other people
might be slaying away on something for
weeks or months, but every once in a
while you gotta come up for air and
like show other people the thing, right?
So there's things that I've shared that
are, I think, really interesting to me,
and I just shared, and then I've gotten
a lot of like, oh, that was awesome.
I didn't even know we were
working on that, or, right.
So it's just this reminder, like,
everyone's busy and everyone is kind
of heads down on their own thing.
So the more you have spaces to show
something or record a loom and send
it across Slack, whatever it may be,
you have to be your own advocate,
even in a org that is, 500 people.
Like, you have to be your own
voice, be your own advocate and
share what you're working on.
The other thing that comes to mind,
we haven't done this yet at Lead but
it's again, something very tactical.
It is like how you the syntax, you
come up with your Slack channel
name, so like how you actually
name your Slack channels again.
You're like, what?
What does that, why does that matter?
It matters.
Trust me,
there's been a, there's been a syntax.
I did not come up with it.
Someone from like a blog post
of like 2016 wrote it up.
I forget who But it's this
beautiful syntax of like how you
should name your Slack channels.
And there's like different levels of
like, what is org level communication?
What is team level communication?
What is project level communication?
But it gives everyone
like there's no surprises.
You Exactly where to find things.
For the most part, all the Slack channel
names are like self-evident, but it's that
discovery, like as you land in a new org
and you're a new employee, and especially
on a remote team, if you can quickly
understand what all these new Slack
channels mean, it just means you're gonna
get up to speed that much faster, right?
So it's even things like that,
that are very tactile of like how
we name our folders on drive, or
how we name our channels on Slack.
Don't underestimate the power that some
of those things can do a remote team.
Araminta Robertson: would
love to see that blog post.
I dunno if you
Bryan McCarty: I will share,
I will send you a link for
sure.
yeah.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah,
that sounds very helpful.
'cause I agree with you.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
And also just a thought came to me,
what I've noticed is the easiest way to
understand a product or a feature, because
I guess your team is building it and you
have to spend some time understanding it.
And I have found the best way to do
that is to write, if you write about a
feature, you have to really understand it.
what is your process for understanding
a new feature, which might be complex,
especially in banking as a service?
Right.
what is your process for really
understanding, really understanding
something very deeply and
what is the output of that?
Like is it a docs, for example,
or something like that?
Bryan McCarty: Yeah, it's definitely
writing about it for sure.
I would say in past lives one
thing that's different about
Lead is we are just an API.
So like we don't have a ui, we don't
have a product that can go look
at and like watch someone demo.
So it's, it is sitting on calls with
other PMs, with our account management
team, with our BD team observing those,
like literally just being a fly on the
wall to see how they're talking about it,
to see what's resume, to see what their
talk track is, to see when the light
bulb goes off on that for that prospect.
Right.
And like, oh, okay, that's a, the way
Jake just described, like those two
sentences, like, okay, that's repeatable.
Like that just clicked for me.
So it's a lot of like sitting,
listening and then writing.
It is being very vulnerable, thinking you
understand something and then putting it
in a doc and then getting with the product
manager who owns that product and having
them beat the heck out of it, right?
Having them like really be
like, dude, this is way off.
Okay, great.
Like, tell me more.
Like, let me record what
you're about to say.
Like tell beat this up, right?
It's taking those moments and like
getting on with that product manager and
talking them through and like recording
the call and then just going back and
forth with them until you get it right.
So it is a lot of writing, it's a
lot of like, kind of throwing stuff
at the wall until it really clicks.
It's taking other people's writing
and going more editor mode.
'Cause PMs especially at Lead, they
write a lot of great documents,
a lot of lengthy documents.
It's given me a chance to play more of
an editor and that's helped me as well,
where they've done a lot of the heavy
lifting describing it, but it's like,
ah, I think we can get this thing down
to a paragraph instead of two pages, but
that helps too, just putting your editor
hat on where someone else has done a
lot of the heavy lifting and then you
can kind of synthesise the key points.
And that helps me a lot think through
some of these complex concepts.
Araminta Robertson:
that's a very good point.
Editing is a good one.
And also like, we'll talk about AI
eventually, but this is where the
risk of using AI is that then you
don't understand, because if you're
not doing the writing yourself,
you're not gonna understand it.
How are you using it?
How are you trying to, use it?
So obviously it makes you more
efficient, but you don't lose the, I
need to understand this feature product
Bryan McCarty: Yeah.
Such a good balance.
I think we all are at the
state where we're using it to
like, polish up this paragraph.
I know this could be written better
and I'm being lazy and oh, Che GPT
make this be, oh, that's way better.
I'm gonna take that version.
Like, we're all, like, that's just
like everyone's doing that every day.
That's fine.
Another way I've been using AI is building
bots to sit in with our partner channels.
So we have on Slack and like, just
surface every questions that our
partners are asking us about our
doc site, about our documentation.
So I get a nice little report every week
that says kind of bundle sends like,
oh, I'm making this up, but you had
seven partners ask about this theme.
And that to me is then signalling
like, oh, we need to go beef up
that section in our doc site.
So I think we can all
do the fOrumer, right?
Like using chat GPT to
polish things and clean up.
That's great.
I think you gotta slow down a little
bit to think through whatever tools
you have at your organisation.
If there's different AI bots you can
build to like take it the next step.
But that step for me where I'm a
team of one right now I would love
to sit on many partner calls as I
can, but I just don't have the time.
So this is why I've fired off a bot
that can help surface some of those
pain points for our documentation.
'cause that's a project
I'm pointed at right now.
But it's like taking that extra step to
think through like, how else warehouse
can I kind of multiply myself and like
get some of these reports that are gonna
help fuel some of the, the work streams.
I'm thinking about.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah, I think
this is what's interesting about AI
is that, yeah, you have to be careful.
Like for our own website, I, all
the content that we write, I do not
use AI at all because I've already
heard it from other people, clients
and everything that it's not that
they have forgotten, but they just,
their writing is as good anymore.
It's because they're
relying too much on ai.
And so you have to be quite careful
because if you use it too much, then
you lose that skill, which is such an
important one, especially in a service
economy remote especially as well.
But then you also, you also need
to know how or when to use it so
that you can maximise whatever
your time is exactly as you said.
So, it's a weird balance and that's
why anyone who's listening and
wants to become a product marketer
don't fall into the temptation
of putting everything through ai.
You still wanna, practise
and build that writing skill.
'cause if
Bryan McCarty: Yeah, it's a great
Araminta Robertson: that.
Bryan McCarty: sure.
Araminta Robertson: Well I
guess we're on the topic of ai.
So what are some other
tools that you use?
I know you've, on other podcasts,
you've mentioned others that
looked really interesting.
And also you've mentioned a
bit docs and I think a lot of
companies under use AI for docs.
'cause there's so much interesting
and great infOrumation in
documents like API documents.
What are some ways that you're maybe
using AI to get more out of those?
Bryan McCarty: Yeah, great question.
So we big fan boy of Minify.
I rolled out Minify at Orum
that powers the Orum Docs.
Then we rolled that out at Lead
very quickly when I joined as well.
Kinda champion that.
But I mentioned Minify because it's very
interesting what they themselves are
doing with AI inside their platfOrum.
So I think that's another kind of
caveat is it doesn't always have
to be like, we need to go get an AI
tool to help us with these things.
It's like looking at vendors that
are kind of that next wave who are,
they're naturally building in ai.
They're like AI first into
their platfOrum, right?
Because Minify does a lot of interesting
things with surfacing, using AI to
surface gaps in our documentation
based on what people are searching.
So again it feels like I have like
a writing companion, a technical
writer with me that is helping
surface things like, Hey, this week
you had these searches, you should
probably go write an article about X.
Do you want me to draught
up the article for you?
And that will get better over time.
Some of these draughts
are like, ah, that's okay.
I've got the nudge now, but
I'm gonna rewrite all that.
That's fine.
But even just that step
of surfacing it is great.
Saves me a tonne of time.
So I think over time, minify and
what they're doing with AI is just
gonna get more deeper and deeper
embedded into their platfOrum.
And it's been just amazing.
What's been happening so far with it.
Araminta Robertson: can you describe
, what Minify does, just in case
Bryan McCarty: Yeah.
Yeah.
So Minify is essentially an AI
powered documentation platfOrum.
So think of anytime you
go to a doc site API docs.
For us it's docs do lead bank.
Orums was docs do or.io
which I think docs are still up as
of the, this recording right now.
So you can check those up.
But those are two examples.
Minify powers a bunch of doc
sites but it also can be used
for internal knowledge bases.
That's another use case
that we're considering.
So if we're in a lead employee,
think about all your knowledge that
you have on the engineering team.
You want to build your own internal wiki.
Like if you're SS oed in as a lead
employee, you can go search this thing.
So you can build it out for like
internal knowledge base as well.
But its primary use case is
running and powering documentation
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Okay.
Nice.
I wanna talk about messaging
because obviously this is a really
big part of what you do as well.
And I think one challenge in
FinTech and financial services, and
I would say especially in banking
where you're working with large
organisations and you power them.
So you're like a really fundamental
part of those companies is,
messaging , to build trust.
I think a couple of years ago we
had unit on the podcast and it
was very interesting to break down
how they like their content is.
So, kind of, I don't wanna say in depth,
'cause I mean everyone will say that
it's more like super specific, lots of
diagrams, all these things because they
understood that the people that they
were targeting, like, this is a big deal.
We need to really be
super careful about this.
So from a messaging
perspective, how do you do that?
And maybe you don't have to just
talk about lead, but also orum.
'cause obviously you're still
in, in payments as well.
Like what are some phrases that
you use or approaches that you
do to kind of enable that trust
Bryan McCarty: Yeah,
Araminta Robertson: messaging?
Bryan McCarty: You bet.
So there, there's a framework I've used in
past lives and it really stemmed at Orum.
But it's really having
a master brand artefact.
And lots of marketers
will be used to this.
It can take different shapes and
sizes, but it's really for us at
Orum, it was one slide that housed
our entire messaging house, right?
You can call it a messaging house,
a master brand, whatever you may
be, but it was like, what Orum?
And it changed over time.
Maybe, you know, every six months
we kinda revisit it when we were
doing a big launch and kind of
repositioning things we, tweaked things.
But it really started off with like that
elevator pitch of like what ORUM does.
Then underneath that was the products,
and then underneath that was like
benefits of those products, right?
But the point is like getting that
messaging and sometimes some of the
fonts can get really small 'cause you're
really trying to get it on one slide.
And again, it sounds very tactical and
maybe silly, but like everyone in your
organisation should darn near have that
thing memorised at least the top half.
Like, Hey, you work at
Orum, what does Orum do?
Or Hey, you work at lead.
What is lead?
Like, everyone should be
saying the same thing.
And then as you get further down,
that messaging house or that Mass
brown might get a little more
technical or get more into the weeds.
But I have found that just getting
everyone literally on the same page
about your messaging does wonders.
There's so many organisations
where everyone is talking about
things slightly differently and
it may sound okay in that moment.
It may sound okay on that sales call.
It may sound okay on that podcast.
It may sound okay at that event, but
like when all that isn't the same,
then it just muddies the water.
So it's like such an effort to try to
distil your messaging down to one page,
but then like get everyone in your org
to just live and breathe that thing.
And there's a lot of effort that can
go into just doing that internally.
It's like if we just internally get
everyone memorising this thing, make it
your wallpaper on their computer screen,
talk about it, like all that stuff.
That was a trick I learned at, or
uh, the chief commercial officer,
Greg, he, that was his idea.
And we did, we had part of our
master brand, it was our wallpaper.
Like we had our IT team make it
the wallpaper on everyone's laptop.
So it's like you had to stare at this
thing every day, but then when you
got asked, well what does Orum do?
It's like we all said the
same thing and we all knew it.
Yeah.
So that for me is like step one.
Once you get that aligned with exec
leadership, then you can talk about the
tactical of like, okay, how does this
messaging transcend to the website?
How does this messaging transcend
to how we think about content?
How does this messaging transcend
to the event we're gonna do?
But it's like, you gotta start with that
messaging house or that master brand.
Then everything else from
that, like just trickles down.
Araminta Robertson: And also I think one
other challenge is that in, I mean, you
tell me if this is right, but in banking
as a service you might be it's still
quite a new thing, banking as a service.
Right.
And it's, I think maybe, maybe the
people you're targeting might not
be fully understanding of what it's
about and how it can help them.
How have you tried to do messaging in a
way that, builds trust, but also translate
those really complex kind of topics
into something that's understandable?
Like how, what have you found works there?
Bryan McCarty: great question.
I think because we deal with this all
the time at or, and at lead where you're
right, you're coming onto a prospect
call and you may have a product manager
who's really technical, but then you
also have like A-A-C-F-O or a leadership
team who maybe isn't as technical.
It's like, wow, these are really different
audiences, but those are maybe the two
buyers for, scoping out lead or whatever.
So I have found just understanding
the right channel to point those
partners at or those prospects at.
So one, it's like getting the messaging
tight on the marketing website.
Maybe that's geared more
towards that leadership person,
that non-technical person.
But then knowing that product manager,
you need great technical content
that's probably not gonna live on the
marketing website, that's gonna be
more over on the documentation site.
So it's like having these different
tools, if you will, in the toolbox to
know like, oh, after this call that PM's
gonna be interested in our API docs.
Oh, that sales leader or that leader's
gonna be interested in the case study.
That's not technical, right?
They just wanna know that we
power x, y, Z solution for ramp
or stripe or whatever it may be.
And it's like having those
different things and really
understanding the audience.
But you have to build those things out.
If you don't have a great documentation
site and you only have a case study,
it's like that PM's gonna be annoyed.
They could care less
about your case study.
They want to dive into the weeds
and understand the charts and graphs
and the technical aspect of your API
and its limitations and all that.
So it's really thinking about your
content across these different
mechanisms and then knowing which
one is gonna, really resonate
with the buyer, with the audience.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
And I was gonna ask specifically
for that non-technical leader who is
still a key part of it and maybe has
the buying power and also is, the
one that is a little bit concerned.
No, not concerned, but like,
they're like, what is this?
I'm not sure It's quite new.
What have you found works
best to build trust with them?
So you've mentioned case studies,
which is great, and obviously
having big names will help.
But is there anything else that you found
will help com translate that complexity?
And also to someone who's
non-technical and also build trust?
Bryan McCarty: Yeah.
One thing that I'm witnessing like in
real time in my six months or so, so
far at Lead, is just the power of the
different SMEs we have internally.
So it's like really teasing out
the, that fear of we, we'll use that
word or that concern that buyer has.
And it's knowing internally, like, oh,
we have a phenomenal compliance team.
Like, I'm gonna set up a call with our
head of risk if that's your concern.
And this person, our head of risk, can,
like, they can go deep with you and
they are just the cream of the crop.
They are experts, they are pros.
And that's for all across the org.
So it's like, again, it's kind
of in the back of your head.
digging into understand their fears, their
concerns, and then you're almost thinking
like, oh, on this next call I need Danny,
oh, on this next call, I need Lisa.
And you're like going through
your head of like, internally.
But even that, that can be like
understanding who the people
are, who the experts you are.
So yes, it's content, but
it's also literally the team
you have surrounded yourself.
And building that as part of like the
DNA and culture of getting everyone
to say like, of course I wanna stop
what I'm doing to go help close a
deal, even though if I'm the head of
compliance or whatever, it's never
like, well that's not part of my job.
It's like, how can I
go help win this deal?
Of course.
Like, I'll stop what
I'm like, book the call.
I'll be on it.
So it's building that like into the
DN and the fabric of the company that
I'm again, witnessing in real time.
That's been really powerful to me
Araminta Robertson: Yeah,
no, that makes total sense.
Ultimately, like, and anything B2B
all comes down to the experts, right?
If you can get 'em in the room.
I always say like, content marketing is
honestly just extracting the knowledge
from the experts and putting it out.
Like that's what we do.
We're translators
Bryan McCarty: Absolutely.
It's like, Hey, I'm gonna book a
call with you every week for an
hour and just start talking to
me, just whatever's on your mind and
I'm gonna start writing things about it.
Yeah, totally.
Araminta Robertson: yeah.
The experts are your biggest asset
and so yeah, you're totally right.
Like, just take them out on a call.
And that's why, like, we've been doing
a few episodes on event marketing.
And again, when you're doing a booth
or hosting an event, having your
experts there also is huge to build
trust and to have those conversations.
You don't want just b DERs or salespeople.
You also want the experts there
who are gonna walk through
the prospect on how you work.
So yeah.
I love that.
I also wanted to talk
about product launches.
So liked your strategy for Orum.
I'll let you explain it.
And I actually was at Money
2020 Vegas when you had it,
and I dunno what happened.
I think I couldn't find it, or I think
you closed before I was able to find it.
So I was really upset that I I wasn't
able to find your booth or your, not
your booth, but your little shop.
So, can you tell us more about your
strategy there and, 'cause it was quite
cool and also in general maybe, how did
you interlink that with a product launch?
Bryan McCarty: You bet.
So we again, I did not
come up with this idea.
Kudos to Greg get Rich that he was
the chief commercial officer at Arm.
He's had a wildly successful career.
He is done me lead content
at Mashable and stood up.
is, had a very successful career.
So he is brilliant at some of these ideas.
I got the pleasure of helping execute it.
And we did it, I don't
know, a handful of times.
So actually, funny enough, when Orum
got acquired, that was some of the
first reactions of like, wait, does
this mean no more donut shop at?
And it's like, oh, that's
what everyone cares about.
So anyways, we, the idea was you launch
something big, something meaningful,
a product launch a couple weeks
before one of these events, whether
it's FinTech Meetup or Money 2020.
And the reason is you're doing that is
then because it's fresh on people's mind.
'cause all the activities are gonna
happen, the website's gonna get
updated, the newsletter's gonna
go out, LinkedIn's gonna blow up.
So fast forward two weeks now, instead
of people walking by this orum thing
and wondering like, what is Orum?
They've seen it in their
feed for the last two weeks.
They've read about it and now it's just
a better like, oh yeah, I saw you guys.
Like what was that thing you,
it's like, it just speeds up that.
Introduction right.
Speeds up the conversation.
But we would buy out a donut shop
right, at the bottom of the escalators
or like right outside the badged area.
You had to walk by our space to
go to these conferences, right?
So we'd buy out this donut shop.
We had it for the day or the two
days, and we had VIP guests come in.
We did a photo booth one year where we
gave you, we updated your profile picture
and we gave you the world renowned
photographers, took your headshot.
And then the following few years, we
actually flew in two of the world's
best baristas and gave you a direct
connection to the world's best coffee.
And so the product launch always had
some, even if it was subtle direct
connection to the thing we were hosting.
So we had a product launch announcing
our direct connection to the Federal
Reserve and then a play on words.
We were giving you a direct
connection to the world's best coffee.
So there was always
some little connection.
So it made sense.
It's like, ah, yeah, like, and we
could talk about it, but when we did
these events, we were very intentional
of like not talking products.
So I agree with you, like there's a time
and a place you want your experts there.
We had our experts there, but
we are very clear with our sales
team, you're not talking product.
The goal of them coming through
this experience is to get
away from the chaos of money.
2020 fin, give them a donut, have
world's best coffee, and just
have a chance to like breathe.
If you wanna talk shop, set up a
meeting for the next day or next week.
Right?
But like, let them enjoy this time
because that's what they'll remember.
They'll be like, oh gosh, I
hope Orum does that thing again.
'cause I need 20 minutes just to
get away from all these other people
and have a good cup of coffee.
Like that's what we want
them remembering, right?
And then we can do the
follow up stuff afterwards.
But it's really hard in those
moments to hold onto that
and like protect that space.
'cause it's so easy.
You wanna start talking product, you
wanna start pitching all that stuff.
So we ran that playbook several times.
That was really successful for us.
I don't know if anyone else is, buying
out donut teak, that was the donut shop.
But it was really fun.
And then at the end of the day,
we had a bunch of donuts left
over that we got to give out to
Araminta Robertson: Nice.
Bryan McCarty: So that was fun.
Yeah.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah, I love that.
And what do you feel
was the impact of that?
Like how, obviously there's brand
awareness, but from a marketing
perspective, how do you think that
helped with business development
and obviously revenue and all that?
Bryan McCarty: Yeah, it
was definitely twofold.
It was just a brand awareness for sure.
We had a brand problem.
People knew Orum, but they didn't
quite understand what we did.
So that was definitely one of
the things we were pushing on.
But we absolutely were tracking
the impact to pipeline.
'Cause we obviously knew everyone
coming through and then we could down
I know there was one of our customers
who literally came from a cold DM
to me on LinkedIn because they saw
it and they wanted a VIP invite.
Months later, they became one of
our, larger enterprise customers.
So even those moments as a market being
up the track, like, oh, and again, it's
not just all me, but it's like, oh,
they like, we got them a VIP invite.
'cause they saw our thing,
they DMed me on LinkedIn.
Like it's fun tracking
those little milestones.
But yeah, we were tracking all that
and good it was really successful.
So we did it again and again,
a few times after that.
So.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
No I love it because, well, in a way
you are not, I always find it ironic how
you could do something that is not sales
focused and it could have, I don't know
if a bigger impact, but it will have
definitely a big impact on pipeline even
if you're not purposely doing it for that.
And that's just a weird way
how events are like that.
And also just how humans we will remember.
Like I, I will remember the brand that
gives me a little plushy more than
someone who gives me a business card or
something, just 'cause I love them and
they're so cute and fluffy and whatever.
Just humans like that were weird, right?
We just remember these more cute
human moments than, I dunno, something
that's more sales driven, right?
Or more B2B
Bryan McCarty: For sure, and it
was definitely getting all of us
comfortable, the entire org, comfortable
knowing this is more of a longer play.
Like yes, we might see a little spike in
traffic and sales calls the next few like,
but we knew it was a longer tail end.
It's like, oh, this is
gonna be a memorable moment.
That's what we're trying to build.
But if that memorable moment comes
back to us six months from now and they
were, remember the donut shop like job
done, that's what we're trying to win.
So it was, again, having that
patience, having that like we know
there's gonna be a long tail, but
that's what we're trying to do.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
No, this is really good.
Well, I wanna end on one, one last
topic, which is a little bit it's a bit
broad, but I think it's an interesting
one with LLMs, and it's one that I've
thought about a lot, especially as
as we all start to use LLMs more as a
search tool or discoverability tool.
And I don't know if you have any
experience with this or if you've thought
about this, but like, do you feel that
as people use LMS more and more, that
this changes a little bit how your
docs or your website has to be set up?
Because now instead of maybe going to
your docs, ' I'm already doing this,
like instead of going to a help page
or a customer support page, I will just
ask l LMS like, can I do this in Canva?
Can I do this in X, Y, Z?
So I'm wondering if you have any
thoughts on that and if you as a
product marketer are maybe designing
your docs or doing something in a way
to ensure that the people can do that.
Bryan McCarty: Yep, totally.
There's kind of, two
paths you can go there.
It's one is thinking about it and
like in your own writing, thinking
about how content should be structured
and can anello and read this with
different, the way you structure thing
with H ones and tables and bullets
and like thinking through all that.
Right?
Another avenue back to kind what
we were talking about earlier
is like the tools you're using.
So Minify builds this in for us already,
so it's a kind of, they're doing the
work for us to ensure that our content is
easily accessible for LLMs and they have
some great little add-on components you
can add to make sure if you go to one of
our pages, you can within one click, then
bring that over to your LLM of choice.
So it's like, again, finding vendors that
are already doing some of this stuff, then
it just makes it that much easier for you.
Of course, you still have to think
about it, but if, you know they're
kind of building that architecture or
that bridge over to the LLMs already,
that's one less thing you have to do.
You just have to focus on your content
and know then that it's getting structured
right and Minify is kind of doing
some of that heavy lifting for you.
So that's been a pleasant surprise
that I have found with just picking
the right vendors and right platfOrums
to stand up for your tool stack.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Not an ad.
Bryan McCarty: We, it's not,
I promise I, I love Minify,
but no, it's not a minify ad.
You should go find the right
tool that works for you and your
team and where you're at as a
company and all that good stuff.
For sure.
Araminta Robertson: and also, just
to go back to what you were saying
earlier, like this is why also
positioning is so important in that
brand house that you mentioned.
Because if you have different things,
if you have different positioning,
different statements in different
places, then the LMS will get confused
and my, different things will come up.
So that's also another part of that.
You wanna make sure it's consistent
across docs, website, your publications,
press releases, all that, because if not,
Bryan McCarty: I love that.
You're absolutely right.
'cause if you have a founder on a
podcast and they're using this, the same
intro sentences that's on the website,
that's on the docs, that's on at the
event thing that's in the newsletter
that you're like, it's beautiful.
And then the LMS can reference all that
and yeah, that's a really great point.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah,
that's what they love.
Well, amazing.
Thanks so much Bryan.
This has been super in depth.
I really appreciate everything that you've
gone through, all the tactical stuff.
This was really helpful.
So yeah, thanks so much.
It was great to reconnect
and appreciate you having on.
Bryan McCarty: Yeah.
Thank you so much.
This was fun.
outro: Thanks for listening.
You can find show notes and
information about guests@www.mint
copywriting studios.com/podcast.
And finally, huge thanks to orama
TV for producing this podcast.
Thanks for listening, and
see you at the next episode.