Hey, everyone. I'm Shakyra Mabone.
Jack:And I'm Jack Williams.
Shakyra:Welcome to Ruling It In, a podcast where we take a moment to reel in the best and worst film moments while keeping our commentary a % real.
Jack:And today, we're talking about crime and detective fiction and all those movies. And today joining us we have Kendra.
Kendra:Hi. Thanks for having me.
Jack:Yeah. No problem. So let's grab our popcorn and reel it in, guys.
Shakyra:First of all, wait, wait, wait. Before we get into it, did you watch Creed III? Because remember the last episode, you said I
Jack:did say I watched Creed III. I did not get around to it.
Shakyra:You did not? Unfortunately. Okay, that's fine. Sorry. You're missing out.
Shakyra:That's Well,
Jack:actually, it'll happen. And there'll be an episode sometime in the future where I'll be like, hey, guys, I watch Creed three. Yeah. But until that time
Shakyra:So then.
Jack:We're talking about other things. But
Shakyra:Let's talk about crimes and mystery. Not you signed out.
Jack:I got signed out of Google Docs. Yeah. So
Shakyra:we basically just, like, came up with this idea because I thought it was cool to talk about, like, mysteries because I just feel like that's a underrated genre in film, in my opinion. Yeah. So, yeah. Like, tell me more about, you know, this class you're taking.
Jack:So, yeah, I'm in a I'm in a class on detective fiction.
Shakyra:Had a conversation about this.
Jack:Yeah, we did. I'm in a class on detective fiction. And or it's mostly American detective fiction, crime fiction, all these sorts of things. But kind of a lot of what we've been doing is we kind of went through the development of the genre from Sherlock Holmes and Like
Shakyra:the birth of like
Jack:Proven Letter. Yeah. Right. Actually
Shakyra:No are films around mystery?
Jack:Yeah. That comes a little later. But actually SPEAKER Oh, Okay. SPEAKER I totally forgot. Actually started when we went over this complex history, we started with this one book we read, I forgot what it's called.
Jack:But we started looking at Robin it looked at Robin Hood.
Shakyra:Oh, right.
Jack:Because that was made at a time when people were kind of fed up with aristocracy. Right? They wanted heroes that kind of challenge aristocracy. So that's what you got. You got people like Robin Hood, this whole stealing from the rich, giving to the poor, blah, blah, But then, as we kind of transition power structures and we kind of get more of this bourgeoisie class kind of come into power, they kind of start to change that, whereas you don't really see the hero criminal anymore.
Jack:You start seeing these sort of detective figures like Sherlock Holmes, where they're not really cops, right? They're not part of the state, but they're also not not part of the state. Have It's
Shakyra:like, I guess, like PIs.
Jack:And they're rich. And that's the real they have a lot of resources. They have a lot of intelligence. They have all these traits that you would want that this class would kind of want people to like, to want. So that's kind of where you got that.
Jack:And then as it keeps developing and I think another important point is that the cops in these stories, like in Sherlock Holmes and or not Arthur Conan Doyle, Edgar Allan Poe's kind of early stories, the cops were kind of portrayed as not idiots, but not really capable of solving certain mysteries because they didn't have it in because, you know, people didn't fully trust, like, police forces back then. Right. As kind of time develops, though, when you get into the twentieth century, there becomes a shift of this kind of rugged detective that the working class is supposed to more with. Right. But they still kind of embody these similar traits.
Jack:But they're not it's no longer just about intellect. They're also not afraid to punch some bad guys get out of their Exactly. Yeah. That's kind of like where you see in those noir movies. It continued and this is North American stories, obviously.
Jack:It kind of continues to develop over the twentieth century, kind of going into the twenty first century right now, which is what we're
Shakyra:going talk about. You mentioned this is all the North American characteristics and things like that. Are you familiar with international mysteries and the Weirdly, no. Haven't looked
Jack:at my I know it's a big thing in, I think, both Japan and Korea. There's a lot of, like, detective films and whatnot, but I haven't really gotten much into that.
Shakyra:Oh, yeah.
Jack:I mean, this class is something he kinda focuses on.
Shakyra:Well, this is more of a horror, but it's a mystery too. I think it's called The Ring. Well, everybody know The Ring. Right?
Jack:Yeah.
Kendra:Yeah. It's like that
Shakyra:movie or film is really good. Yeah.
Jack:But Kendra, did you mention you were into Sherlock Holmes? Or
Kendra:Yeah. I love Sherlock Holmes. I think he's a really interesting sort of detective character that's not a cop. He says he's like a consultant, like the only one in the world and all this stuff. And I love the not a movie, but I love the BBC series, Sherlock.
Jack:Yeah. Is that Robert Downey Junior or is that
Shakyra:No.
Kendra:Robert Downey Junior is the movies.
Jack:Okay. And
Kendra:then Sherlock, this series, like Benedict Cumberbatch.
Jack:Benedict Cumberbatch, yep. Yeah. Do you read Sherlock Holmes? Or are you just into the
Kendra:I haven't really much lately, but we're actually reading a Sherlock Holmes story in one of my classes right now, my English class. We're doing a little detective crime fiction fiction as Yeah. So we're
Jack:reading like one of the Sherlock Holmes stories. Mhmm. Which which one?
Kendra:It's oh, I can't remember the title. I
Jack:I I this is one thing I actually didn't know until I kinda got into this class, but apparently they're all told by Watson. I didn't know it was like that, which is really interesting. Mean, it's like told from the assistant. Yeah. It's not like from Sherlock Holmes at I wonder why, though.
Jack:Did you guys talk about that?
Kendra:A little bit. I think it's really interesting that Watson is the narrator, because Holmes is very factual. Mhmm. And he would leave out everything that's Right. The kind of romanticism part of it.
Kendra:I think that's why Watson is the narrator, to make it more humanistic. Yeah. I see.
Jack:And it almost portrays this kind of like Holmes is on a different level. If he was telling the story, you would not get it. Would not be able to follow along. Yeah, that's a very interesting story, or a very interesting period of the genre, kind of where the modern context, you see the detective being born. And then I think another interesting thing is of end of the twentieth century.
Jack:If you look at South America, Latin American crime fiction, it took very noticeable deep parts from the North American counterpart, because obviously South America has a lot of history with US interventionism, the the state's becoming corrupt. You think of Chile, Argentina, all the bad things that happened there. So you see kind of post that era, sort of mid-twentieth century, detectives started investigating the state. The villains became more like the state. And you see today, too.
Jack:We watched one film from, I think it was 02/2009. It's called The Secret in Their Eyes. And I think it won best international feature in '20 Yeah. No, it was really good. But it's very much like you see those kinds of Mhmm.
Jack:All that sort of very real trauma kind of rooted in see the movies kind of rooted in that very real trauma that they all kind of went through collectively. But very interesting genre, guys. I'm really interested in this stuff. Yeah. Anyway, if you follow the Stavie's Instagram, you should have seen a post in the last week or so.
Shakyra:We asked you this, what's their favorite thriller Mhmm. You know, crime history. And we really got some good feedback, you know?
Jack:Good idea.
Shakyra:Some we watched, some we haven't watched before. Mhmm. Might watch it. I don't know. I might watch some of these things on my Mhmm.
Shakyra:You know, watch list. But one of them was called Prisoners.
Jack:So Prisoners.
Shakyra:First off, how do you feel about that movie?
Jack:I was mostly a fan of Prisoners. I like Hugh Jackman. Jake Gyllenhaal's a good actor, I think. Paul Dano, great cast. I think the first thing I noticed, and I actually wrote this down, was the opening scene in that movie, where the daughters first go missing.
Shakyra:Yeah.
Jack:There's this sort of scene where it builds tension very slowly. You go from this Oh,
Shakyra:yeah. It's most definitely like a slurp.
Jack:Yeah. You go from this kind of oh, where's the kids? Where did they go? I think we as an audience know what happened. And it was very like panic.
Jack:Very nerve wracking. Yeah. So they go from this like, oh, like, where are they? Like, oh, they're probably down the street. And then like, oh, like Like, oh, actually can't find them.
Jack:And it's like, we gotta call the cops. Yeah. And I thought that was a very great progression.
Shakyra:Oh, yeah. Most definitely like the emotions that I felt. I don't have children, obviously, but if I had children, I will most definitely be like, oh my gosh. I cannot a parent
Jack:watching that, that has to be like Right.
Shakyra:That's what I'm saying.
Jack:Or like Or
Shakyra:Or not even like you having children, like even if you have like little siblings and you know, you being a big sister and watching them like the brother in that film was supposed to do. Just the thought of like them going missing is just like, oh my gosh. And then you just had all of these, I guess, antagonists like, who was the first Alex? And then who was the other guy, Bob? It was just like that whole situation was just so nerve racking because you just wanna know like, okay, who actually did it, you know?
Shakyra:But yeah, I really like that slow build up to like, to find out who's the actual, you know, perpetrator Mhmm. In the films and things like that.
Jack:Yeah.
Shakyra:It really keeps like the, storyline going.
Jack:Kendra, thoughts?
Kendra:With the antagonists, I think the actors they chose for them were so good at being creepy and unsettling.
Jack:Yeah. No. No Paul Dano movie, he's playing some crazy guy, you know?
Kendra:He said,
Shakyra:I'm not Alex. I was
Jack:like Yeah. What? He's he's great at that. I don't know how he does it. And then I forgot the other actor's name.
Shakyra:What is his name? He actually just played in a recent movie called Late Night with the Devil.
Jack:Yeah. I think was his first I didn't see it, but I I saw it was like his first, like, main role.
Shakyra:Yeah. Yeah. I've seen it and I was, to be honest, I wasn't a big fan of it. Okay. We'll talk about that later.
Jack:We can, yeah.
Shakyra:What is his name? But anyway, he was really great in that movie too. Oh man, that plot twist in that film was really crazy.
Jack:Like near the end? Near the end?
Shakyra:Oh, no. Like his character, like the way he exited out. I don't know what's going
Jack:on, but, know. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. No.
Jack:So I liked it. I liked Prisoners. One thing I I did say I don't know. It kinda lost me in the third act Mhmm. A little bit.
Jack:I don't know if you guys had the same experience, but I think once once it started getting into the the whole, like, the the older lady being the Yeah. The the
Shakyra:Yeah. A
Jack:villain. I was like That's what
Shakyra:I'm saying. Like, to be honest, let me be real. I kinda already had a feeling that it was her the whole time. Sure. But, like, I I most definitely get what you're saying, though, because it's just like that that shift.
Shakyra:Like, how do we go from this guy who had a RV to his aunt or whatever?
Jack:And I get it. And I think there's a very there's a balance you kinda have to strike when you tackle topics like this in in, like, detective genre, is you have to strike this balance between, hey, we're going to talk about real traumatic things that happened. And I think it does that very well for the first two thirds of the movie. But then also, it's like you have to build a narrative structure. And I think inherently, when you have to build a narrative structure, kind of you have to have plot twists.
Jack:You have to keep the audience engaged. Exactly. And I think like I was talking about, sort of like the Latin American genre, the Latin American crime fiction genre. You see them kind of grappling with that a lot more because of like the the topics they're talking about are so universal, and there's so many people affected by it that it's a lot more stooped in reality. It's a lot more realistic or believable or whatever.
Jack:And that was kind of my issue. I just felt it got a little too dramatized at the end. It was a little too much of like a, oh, we need this to happen for the sake of whatever.
Shakyra:You said dramatized. Why do you feel like the ending was dramatized?
Jack:I just felt like I don't know. It was very like I don't know how to describe it. It seemed like they were setting up this thing. It's like weird. You were talking about how unsettling Paul Dano's character was and the other character, how creepy they were.
Jack:Mhmm. It was creepy because I think they it's like these could be real people, you know? These are very real kind of people, you Like, you could see these type of people every day, whatever. And then I feel like the the the who ended up being the real villain at the end, she was kind of like comic book villain, you know? Was kind of like interesting.
Jack:She seemed more like an evil mastermind, like, oh, it was my plan all along.
Shakyra:Your gun.
Jack:Right. Yeah. She's like, I knew you were gonna be me. It's like
Shakyra:Dry bog. Exactly.
Jack:Yeah. And it's like Okay.
Shakyra:Now I see.
Jack:And it's like I think it set up something that was kinda more like it seemed more real at the start. And it's like, okay, this could be like a real story. This could have happened to someone, you know, this could happen, This has happened. That's kind of the vibes I was getting. And then by the end, it was like, okay.
Jack:It seemed like they just needed something to happen. Of course, I love Denny, the director. He's awesome.
Shakyra:Yeah.
Jack:I love him. But that was my that was just my only gripe with it. And that might just be because I've been thinking about these things constantly because I'm in the class. But No. I
Shakyra:I mean, I like the ending, you know?
Jack:Yeah. Yeah.
Shakyra:Like, we always were we was talking about like, just now. I just feel like the plot twist was kinda weird. I don't know. I just feel like they kinda wrote it better, to be honest.
Jack:Sure.
Shakyra:Do you think about that?
Jack:I mean, yeah. Just like the things that Yeah. It's like
Shakyra:But like, all the way to the ending, it was like another plot twist. Like, well, I don't know. I consider it as a plot twist. I feel so bad because I
Jack:I think that yeah.
Shakyra:Yeah. Yeah. I don't wanna spoil it, but I really like that because when I watched it and mind you, this is like my only second time watching it, honestly. And I was like younger when I watched it, I was like, I didn't really get it. But like now, would rush it.
Shakyra:I'm like, oh. Oh, damn. Like, that's crazy. Ugh.
Jack:Mhmm.
Shakyra:I don't know. The realism in that film is just yeah, I could not imagine. So
Jack:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And that's what I think what got me at the start. Mhmm.
Jack:Because, like, you talked about, like, having, like, stuff like I have two younger siblings, you know, and it's like, you know, that yeah. Like, that that that that get what got me there. But Kendra, I'm curious what you made of Yeah.
Kendra:Did you guys think that there were too many things, like, left out at the end? Like
Jack:What do you mean?
Kendra:I I got a sense that, like, so many things were, like, implied to have happened or weren't actually shown. And, like Yeah. I still don't understand the mazes. Like Was that even explained? Yeah.
Kendra:Like how that connects? I didn't
Shakyra:really understand that either. I think that was the main thing. Because even with the Bob character, I was like, okay, so what's his?
Kendra:Yeah, how did he know them?
Jack:I think it was very heavily implied, or they might have said it. I don't know. I might have missed it. But Oh, sorry. Seemed like it was implied that, I mean, with the juice and stuff, that she had Hugh Jackman's character drink at the end.
Jack:Was like that she had kidnapped them and done similar, you know. I I think because she talked about how her kid went missing. Right? Mhmm. So then she was like, I'm gonna do it.
Jack:And that was, again, where, like, the whole, like, criminal mastermind thing kinda came from, where it's like, oh, this happened to my kid, so I'm gonna Probably do the same. Is a real thing. People have things happen to them. Yeah.
Shakyra:Come on now.
Jack:Yeah. If I compare it to another film, which actually got brought up in that video, Zodiac, which also has Jake Gyllenhaal in it.
Shakyra:He's like, I don't know what is this about that actor specifically, but he's just everywhere, honestly.
Jack:Yeah. And he has a very specific character type. Yeah. Not that he plays the same every movie.
Shakyra:But he has a certain, I don't know how to explain it, aura to him, I guess. Yeah.
Jack:Yeah. I'm sorry. No, I get it. Yeah. And I used to love him when I was in middle school.
Jack:Was obsessed with Jake Gyllenhaal. I don't know for what reason I was. No, like in Zodiac, this is a little different, obviously, because it is based on a true story and it's real accounts. But that's a story where it's like, this could happen. Obviously, this did happen, but it's a very realistic structure.
Jack:And then by the end, I even like how they didn't fully catch him. And I think when you compare those two movies, there is a very obvious difference in the end. And I guess maybe it's not the best example just because it is based on a true story, but that's kind of where my mind starts to go.
Shakyra:So my question to you guys, going back to the conversation we had about the Maze and how they didn't really fully, like, implied anything. So, like, do you feel like, scenarios or, like, storylines like that work better for, like, crime movies in general when it's, like, all open minded and, like, have a I don't know.
Kendra:Like
Jack:Yeah. No. I I like I like open mindedness. I or or, open endings or whatever, like, you know, abstract symbolism, whatever. But, you know, I think you do have to make when you're dealing with crime, have to make some kind of statement, know what I'm saying?
Jack:Which I think most films do pretty well. I think Prisoners did pretty well. But yeah, like I said, that ending. Don't know, Kendra, what do
Shakyra:you think?
Kendra:Yeah, I agree
Jack:with that.
Kendra:I think it adds to the mystery and the intrigue, but too much just makes it seem like you have no clue what's going on anymore.
Shakyra:Yeah, most definitely.
Jack:Okay, so I did just look up what was the maze in prisoners.
Shakyra:No, not for all.
Jack:And I'm getting that it is a reoccurring symbol representing the complex, confusing, and ultimately inescapable nature of the search for the missing girls. So it's a metaphor. I
Shakyra:don't really
Jack:love me a good metaphor.
Shakyra:Doesn't really match though. Like, to me it doesn't because, I mean, well, actually I take that back because like I said, the characters between the aunt Alex and Bob, that was amazing within itself, honestly.
Jack:I think narratively in the end, it ended up being that she had because there was that scene where she had the girls, it was like a little book or something, and it was like, finish the maze and you can escape. Yeah. So I think it was I think that was part of That was
Shakyra:that. And then
Jack:And that's why that one character was drawing it, think.
Shakyra:Right. Right. You know, it's a metaphor to crime or mystery in general. You have to go through all of these paths to get to the ending or find I don't Yeah. So
Jack:good movie, full of great stuff.
Shakyra:Great movie. I will ask you to rate it, but I forgot you don't rate movies.
Jack:I don't. Sorry, guys.
Shakyra:I don't understand that. Like, why? You never got into it.
Jack:And this might sound, I won't say pretentious because I don't like that word, but it might sound, guess, yeah, it might sound pretentious to me, but I just don't agree with assigning numeric values to art. Think it's
Shakyra:That's fair because
Jack:I would prefer to just talk about it and then, like, you know, which I get, like, you know, it's like it's just like an easier way of saying how you thought about it. But I I I don't know. I I don't
Shakyra:like That's understandable. Because, like, you know, previous episodes when you talk about like Yeah. You know, art is not really for us, it's for them per se. So, I get what you're saying
Jack:with that.
Shakyra:That makes But no, Prisoners is a really great movie. I did say Viola Davis and Terrence Howard
Jack:Yep.
Shakyra:That was an interesting couple, you know, choice. I mean, I guess. Wait.
Jack:You don't think they work together?
Shakyra:Well, to be honest, no. I don't think that Kemba Street was like but Viola Davis, like, she always, like, fit for that type of, you know, genres, you know, dramas. Sorry.
Jack:Thriller. Like
Shakyra:Yeah. Because we all know, like, Viola Davis,
Jack:she's yeah.
Shakyra:Of course. But like, Terrence Howard, that was like one of my first, I guess, dramatic serious scene or movies I seen him in, like, where he's not raging, but he's like the opposite. Like, he he's like, I don't know, not upset because that's the same thing.
Jack:He was the reluctant one when like, you just arrived.
Shakyra:Yeah. So and that was just like interesting to me. Mhmm. He actually worked it well. So
Jack:No. Yeah. He's good. I think I wanna say I've only seen him in Iron Man. Really?
Jack:Unless I haven't. I just, like, don't know. Sick. I think that's, like, the one I know him from.
Kendra:Oh, nice.
Shakyra:Yeah.
Jack:And then they recasted him with the Cheetah.
Shakyra:Oh, Don yeah.
Jack:Don Cheetah.
Shakyra:I forgot all
Jack:about that. Yeah.
Shakyra:Oh, yeah.
Jack:Anyway, another thing we wanted to talk about those TikTok compilations. This sounds totally unrelated, but I promise it's not those TikTok compilations.
Shakyra:It's not. So we just thought I just noticed how on Prisoners, there was, like, a lot of scenes of Hugh just, like, yelling, you know Tweet. Showing so much emotion. Please find my daughter. No.
Shakyra:Please find daughter. And it was just funny to bring up because we were seeing some TikToks based on compilations of men who'd be winning best scene and it's nothing but them just yelling the whole time.
Jack:This is the top 10 performances in history. Just like Jake Jonelle, Leonardo DiCaprio, Hugh Jackman, and they're all just yelling. Yeah. So we thought that was I thought that was funny. Yeah.
Jack:Which, you know, tick TikTok trends. Yeah.
Shakyra:So I just wanna ask, like, do you think that's like well, obviously, it's an easy way to make it intense, but, like, what do you think, like, that I don't know. Like, what do you think those, like, techniques make that scene like, scenes prominent, I guess?
Jack:I don't know. I think I think in film I think when people, like, when people think of good acting, that's just what they go they think they're like, what's, like, the most, like, emotion? Like, people experiencing the most emotion, that's not what they're actually feeling, you know, and I think that's what people consider, like, good acting or, like, real acting, you know. So it's just like but when, you know, we know that's not the case.
Shakyra:Right. And it doesn't even pertain to men because even, like, in that compilation, we've seen Taraji P. Henson, you know, when she did that monologue and it's not really monologue, but, you know, she basically poured her heart out and hid it figures, you know, which everybody made a joke out of it. But me, personally, it's not a joke. Y'all just don't understand.
Shakyra:But it's, you know Not y'all, but You know?
Jack:I I remember that trend. The the I work like a dog day and day. Yeah. I I remember when that came out. And I was I was always like, you know, given the context of that scene, like, I don't know.
Jack:Mhmm. Yeah. But, yeah, think that's what draws people to that. It's I think it's about, like, emotion, which, like, emotion is act like, showing emotion is acting. But yelling isn't always the doesn't equal, like, best acting.
Jack:You know what I'm saying?
Shakyra:No. Yeah. Most definitely. So just going back to, like, prisoners and just, like, you know, mystery dramas in general. So do you think this film, like, prisoners is, like, a classic whodunit or is just, a darker, like, crime drama in general.
Shakyra:That is a tongue twister. But yeah. I don't
Kendra:think it's really more of a who done it. It's it's more of like a a drama.
Jack:When I think who done it, I think like clue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I it's more like thriller or, you know, I think it connects back to like, you know, I was talking about, like, sort of the gritty, the gritty crime fiction, you know, like, these are guys who aren't afraid to and I think there's a really there is a cool dynamic of Jake Jonahull, who is a cop, right?
Jack:And Hugh Jackman, who's just like a guy. Or he's one of the victims, kind of, or knows the victim. So you kind of get this cool comparison. It questions, I think, the justice system and cops' ability to actually enact change versus what can this guy do versus what can this guy do. And they both want the exact same thing.
Jack:They both want to find the killer or the kidnapper. But it kind of asks us to compare that. And then with Paul Dano being kidnapped by Hugh Jackman, I think it also kind of raises these questions of like, is justice? Right? Right.
Jack:Which I think the best crime fiction works should do, is kind of make us question true justice and all these other things. Because justice for him was or he thought, I guess, at one point was just like torturing him. Justice for him would be killing them. Justice, according to Jake Gyllenhaal, is putting them behind bars. You know what I'm saying?
Shakyra:Right. Which is like it's interesting because Hugh Jackman's white character or whatever. Yes, he did that because he really wanted to find his daughter his self. Mhmm. But I just feel like, like, it was gonna be a lose lose situation for him because at the end of the day, when he was or when he do get found, he's gonna be put behind bars himself.
Shakyra:It's just like yeah.
Kendra:Yeah. I think it's really interesting to see how some characters can justify violence or, you know, this genre really, really lends itself perfectly to exploring morality, right versus wrong. Like you said, justice. Right.
Jack:Mhmm.
Kendra:I like how that was done in
Jack:this film. Yeah.
Shakyra:So how do you guys feel about low key? Jake?
Jack:Detective Yeah. Like, gritty man. Oh.
Shakyra:I'm not gonna be I thought he was gonna be, like, the classic, you know, goofy, not really paying attention type detective that we talked about or or that we mentioned earlier. Mhmm. But he kinda like really surprised me. Like, I feel like he wasn't really paying attention to his steps, if that makes sense, in my opinion. Mhmm.
Shakyra:But I just feel like the plot twist with his character as well basically made me thought otherwise of his character. But
Jack:And I think cause I mean, like there's and yeah, he did like, he blundered a lot, you know, like with the gun, you know, when he that one character took the gun and shot himself. That was his fault. Mhmm. And then, you know, there's that scene where Hugh Jackman's like yelling at him and he's like, this is He's sick. He's like, you were following me when you could have been following the killer, you know?
Shakyra:Right. That's what he He was like,
Jack:hey. Hey. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, like, this is your, like, this is And I I think it gets back to, what, you know, what we were just talking about of, these different approaches of the detective who works as a cop and the limits he can do, and maybe how that's not the most effective way of approaching it when you have to follow all these guidelines and all this other stuff.
Jack:I think because a lot of it is like he was trying to pretend like he knew better than Hugh Jackman, which you know he does, he's a detective.
Shakyra:What's his name in that story? Kleiner? Kleiner? Kleiner? Dover?
Shakyra:Okay.
Jack:That's his
Shakyra:last name.
Jack:Dover. Right. Right.
Shakyra:Yeah.
Jack:Yeah, he was like I think it was like every scene where, like, Hugh Jackman was like Dover. Like, you're not doing you're not doing this right. You know, you're not like
Shakyra:I'm doing your job. Yeah. Even the wife would say something like that too.
Jack:And he was very Jake John Hall or Loki, I guess, was very dismissive about it. He was always like, hey, calm down. Calm down. I got this. I get this.
Shakyra:She will
Jack:be Yeah. Like, I'll find them. And it's like he didn't, you know? Or I mean, he did, but, you know.
Shakyra:You know, I just wanna, like, compare his character to what's the detective name again in Knives Out?
Jack:Benoit Blanc.
Shakyra:Yeah. Like, what is your thoughts about them two? Like, can you even compare them? Because I feel like he Blanc is, like, very more witty with it.
Jack:So What's funny about Blanc and what I love about him, obviously the Southern accent is hilarious. I'll let Daniel Craig for that. But I think what's interesting about because we were talking about the gritty detective versus the preppy detective. Benoit Blanc is almost going back to that. Because he reminds me more of Sherlock.
Jack:He's more observant. Exactly. Who's the Agatha Christie one? Death on the Nile guy? Forgot his name.
Jack:Poro, I think is his name. It reminds me of him. I think they're very we're kind of seeing, in a modern context, those two different detectives. Detectives. And that's kind of what I've been curious about, is why revert back to that?
Jack:Why go back to the preppy, smart detective as opposed to the gritty noir detective? But that's one thing I was thinking about while I was watching Knives Out first, because I rewatched Glass Onion, great movie, love it.
Shakyra:A little Janelle Monae's character.
Jack:She's amazing.
Shakyra:She's amazing.
Jack:But no, Knives Out is certainly, I think, a great example, like the modern detective. I think Rian Johnson is kind of doing something different. Because I think at the end of every when we get back to this whole, what can the detective really do? I think at the end of both movies, Knives Out and Glass Onion, Blanc can't do anything. Yeah.
Jack:I mean, in the first movie, he has the cops with him. But I think in Glass Onion, do this message a lot more clearly of like and he says it. It's like, I can gather evidence. I can present that to the police. But at the end of the day, I'm just like a
Shakyra:I'm just the PR.
Jack:And he puts it in the hands of the he puts the hands in of the characters. Right. You know? He's like
Shakyra:Y'all figure this out.
Jack:If I can't enact justice, maybe you can, you know? Right. And I find that really interesting because back in the day, you wouldn't have that. Mhmm. You know?
Shakyra:It would just be them. Like, oh, no.
Jack:I got Sherlock would find the case. You know? He would solve it because he's smart.
Shakyra:It would be the huncho. Mhmm. I mean
Jack:Anyway, know, they'd go to jail or whatever. And that would be it. But so I think Knives Out is very interesting in that way. Yeah. I think it it it sort of attacks and I think Ryan Johnston does this a lot in his movies.
Jack:He's sort of like critiques, like, the upper class or whatever. Mhmm. And I think he does that in a very interesting way.
Shakyra:What is your, like, over raw thoughts about, like, the film in general? I thought
Jack:and, like,
Shakyra:Last I N.
Kendra:I mean, I love those movies, personally. I think they're fun, and I love the mystery. I love how they reconstruct the narrative at the end of those movies, how they take you back through the whole process.
Jack:Yeah. That's a classic thing.
Kendra:It's it's classic of the genre. The whole genre is basically reconstructing a narrative after something has happened. Like, some crime has happened, you have to figure
Jack:out how. And Glass Onion especially really does that. Yeah. Because it's like half the movie and you get to the part where Janelle Monae's character gets shot. And then it just it just throws you back again.
Shakyra:Plot twist because first of all, I'm like, wait a minute. Mhmm. That was that wasn't oh, okay. That makes
Jack:sense. Yeah. And you're watching the same thing too. Yeah. Which is so I can't I can't think of another director who could make you watch the same thing twice.
Jack:Like, that's so fun to me. He's he just he shows you a movie and he's like, let's just do it again but, like, from a different perspective Yeah. And you're still gonna love it and you're still gonna be engaged. And then, because literally, when you think about it, the halfway point is the same point as the end. There's not much time in between there.
Shakyra:Right.
Jack:And that's such a great, Ryan Johnson, think he's a genius for that. He's definitely, I think, one of the best working directors. I saw Knives Out at the world premiere in Toronto Few Years ago. So I got to see all the actors and stuff. But anyway, I'm a huge Rian Johnson fan.
Jack:I love Brick and Star Wars eight. And of course, Knives Out. And speaking of Knives Out, there's a new one coming out soon.
Shakyra:Yeah. Let me pull that load up. I had it, I swear.
Jack:I have high hopes for that, especially after Queer. I don't know if you guys saw that Daniel Craig movie. I didn't
Shakyra:really watch that because you brought this up like
Jack:I think I did bring it up in another episode.
Kendra:Right. I actually haven't heard much about this, the new Knives Out movie.
Jack:Yeah, don't think there's much of there's no trailer or anything, I don't think, yet. They just have some pictures released. And I think they released the cast, which includes Jeremy Renner, which is funny, because if you remember in Glass Onion, they had the hot sauce, the Jeremy Renner hot sauce. Yeah. So I'm curious how Rian Johnson is gonna include Jeremy Renner as a character, but then also Jeremy Renner exists in the movie as Jeremy Yeah, but they said he wasn't, which is my initial have to watch the first one.
Shakyra:Yeah. Who is the best thing of this? We have Daniel Craig, of course. Mhmm. Callie Spaining.
Shakyra:I hope I'm saying Jenny Spaining. Callie.
Jack:I think.
Shakyra:Yeah. Jenny Renner, Glenn Close, Andrew Scott, Thomas, Hayden Church.
Jack:She's a good one.
Shakyra:Joshua Connor, Mila Kunis. That's my girl right there.
Jack:Mhmm. Meg from Family Guy.
Shakyra:And Carrie Washington is in it too. So that's that's interesting.
Jack:Yeah. Yeah. And that's I think another thing I love about him is like, it's always just like because I remember when the first I was in like middle school or something when the first trailer came out for Knives Out. And it was just
Shakyra:like Wait. You was in middle school?
Jack:Maybe high school.
Shakyra:Sheesh.
Jack:Yeah. Well, I mean, it was like when the teaser dropped. I think it was like during the Oscars or something. But it was just like, this actor, this actor, this actor. And I love the idea of like Yeah.
Jack:Doing a murder mystery, combining like a bunch of great cast memory. It's very reminiscent of Clue, like we were just talking about. Where it's like each character is kind of wacky and has their own kind of vibe going on. Yeah. That's another movie that does the reconstruction of the narrative in a fun way.
Jack:When he goes back and he's like, well, this could have happened and this could have happened.
Shakyra:Speaking of Clue and Glass Onion, Glass Onion, the whole character, the group or whatever, it was high class. It was CEOs and things like models and yada yada yada. So I just noticed, like, in every murder mysteries or just like mysteries in general, the plot really centers a wealthy class. Why is that? Why do you think that is?
Jack:I think in the modern context, like in Rian Johnson context, it's obviously for the sake of critiquing.
Shakyra:Yeah.
Jack:Know back in the day, think back in the day, like the nineteenth century, the role of the higher class would be to fuel the detective. I
Shakyra:think we mentioned that earlier, the Robin Hood stuff.
Jack:Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think saw some challenging of that in the twentieth century with the noir stuff. They would sometimes challenge the upper class and whatnot. But they did it in a way where it didn't fully challenge the status quo. And if we get back to the Latin American crime fiction kind of thing, that's what they were always doing.
Jack:Especially post 1950s, was always like, this sort of ruling looking at the ruling class is kind of the villain. Right.
Shakyra:So do you think that's why I won't assume, but society like murder mysteries? Because they get a kick out of the powerful being exposed?
Jack:That be an interesting question. I don't know. I don't know what drives people to
Shakyra:Yeah. I mean, it's not like a you know, it's just a hypothetical question, you know?
Jack:And the concept of the murder mystery, I don't know if it's uniquely American, but I feel like when I think of them, it's like Clue. That's like the B. Right. Or Or Murder on the Orient Express, where you have cast of characters, it's like one of them did this. But I think it's also uniquely North American to focus on murder, or just murder for the sake of murder, or murder because someone stole something.
Shakyra:Great movies.
Jack:Great movies. Great movies.
Shakyra:Do you like to add anything else? Or do you think
Jack:No. I love the genre. It's great. This class has really opened my eyes. It's, I think, now one of my favorite genres.
Shakyra:Yeah, was going to say, would you recommend this class to anyone?
Jack:Yeah, but it is a I mean, you're an MSU student listening, it is think it's It's novel in narrative, so it's not always gonna be the same topic, unfortunately. But because it's just gonna be like up to the professor. But it's a great class. I love it.
Shakyra:I see. I see.
Jack:Yeah. But this has been reeling it in. Huge thank you to Kendra for coming on, our podcast coordinator Taylor, and you, because where would we be if we didn't have you guys listening
Shakyra:in? Exactly.
Jack:Remember, if you have a movie you like and you want us to talk about, if you have some thoughts about a movie you want us to talk about, email me at jack dot williamsstatenews dot com, and we'll talk about it on the podcast. And, yeah. Till next time.
Shakyra:I'm Carla Leibong.
Jack:I'm Jack Williams. Bye.