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Introducing ReFolkUs, a new podcast by Folk Music Ontario, where we talk to artists and music industry professionals about building sustainable careers as creative workers, with a focus on folk.
RFU 36 - Liana White
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[00:00:27] Rosalyn: Hello and welcome to ReFolkUs. Today we are speaking all about U.S. immigration and visas and what Canadian artists need to work or play in the US with our esteemed expert, Liana White. Liana is the executive director of the Canadian National Office of the American Federation of Musicians of the United States and Canada, otherwise known as the CFM.
In addition to her position with the CFM, Liana chairs the Board of Women in Music Canada and is a member of the Canadian Labour Congress Women's Caucus.
In these roles, Liana has been serving the interests of professional musicians and labour for well over 25 years. In her capacity as CFM Executive Director, Liana is involved in every aspect of the union's operations, some of which includes lobbying for copyright reform, negotiating agreements, benefiting musicians, and mentoring musicians in all aspects of their career.
Through her work with the CLC, Liana has served as an advocate of general labor interests for all Canadians for over 10 years, lobbying in support of national pharma care and affordable childcare, with a concentrated focus on women's rights on the global scale. Please welcome Leanna White. Hello, Leanna. How are you doing?
[00:01:36] Liana: I'm well, how are you?
[00:01:38] Rosalyn: I'm doing very well. I'm so excited to speak with you today about this very important topic. But before we get into it, I'm wondering if you can just start off by telling us a little bit of how you got into this role or got into working at the union, a little bit about you and your, your history there.
[00:01:54] Liana: Actually I usually just say it's dumb luck. I had been looking for a job many eons ago and they were hiring, I was just dropping off resumes wherever. And I took a job as their artist immigration administrator. And then just ended up getting more and more interested in what the union did overall outside of just administering the visas For artists and my career just grew from there. I had very supportive mentors. I was very fortunate and here I am today as executive director since 2012.
[00:02:28] Rosalyn: So that's over 20, 25 years working in artist administration specifically though in, visas and, you know, administering this, visa to the U.S., correct?
[00:02:38] Liana: That's correct. Yes.
[00:02:39] Rosalyn: So maybe for folks who don't know, or maybe folks who are thinking about possibly performing in the U.S. or, or working in the U.S. Let's do a little bit of a 101 on some of the basics of the U.S. visa requirements. When I was reading the bio, I was tripping over work and play.
Let's start at what kind of defines work in the U.S. for artists.
[00:03:02] Liana: It is performing any, what would be deemed a professional engagement. So there may be instances where you're not paid or I've processed hermits before for very elaborate purposes. open mic type engagements where it really is just, donations or maybe not even that.
Just, just refining your skills and getting up and jamming. But the engagement takes place in a commercial venue, so, you know, that's usually a bar and grill or, you know, something like that cafe then it is a business and your music could be attracting business.
So even if you're not making any money, it's perceived that you're playing is making somebody money in the United States and is therefore deemed professional and would require a visa.
[00:03:51] Rosalyn: So, what about something like I want to go down to the U. S. and, and record an album.
[00:03:57] Liana: So recording an album has a few different variables. If you're going in and renting a studio space and going to record some tracks, typically, that's a little bit of a gray area when you're doing a self produced album that is primarily going to be done in Canada, but perhaps you're just going into a studio or you want to record with a couple of American musicians or something like that. You know, a particular song that's typically okay to go in as a business visitor. And obviously your album is going to be released in the United States or on platforms that are accessible by U.S consumers, then you would require a visa.
[00:04:50] Rosalyn: You mentioned songwriting in there. If I'm just going down to, to songwrite with a friend of mine that lives in the U.S., are you saying that that would require or possibly wouldn't?
[00:05:00] Liana: Actually, if it's only songwriting, if you're doing collaborative work songwriting, obviously there'd be a little bit of playing as you're writing, but as long as you're not recording, then you can go in as a Canadian citizen.
Specifically, you can go into the United States for up to six months as a visitor. So you could absolutely go in under that. You've got that right as a Canadian. And you could go in and collaborate with other artists, be they U. S. Or whatever on U. S. Soil. And that should be fine. just don't do any kind of professional type.
[00:05:34] Rosalyn: I will say that one of the things that I really admire about you and about the folks who work at the CFM is that you understand the world of work musicians. It's complicated, right? Like no two instances of, work or of gigging or whatever are, are the same, right?
We're all, you know, individual pretty snowflakes and, and have our own things going on. So, I feel like a caveat before we say anything, you know, I will encourage everyone that there's like, there's no cookie cutter thing and to just call your office. You know, you guys have wonderful administrators there who work specifically in this one task region area.
first and foremost, if you're wondering and for people that are listening, that are thinking, well, I have this and it's complicated cause I'm doing X, Y, Z these are people that absolutely understand. That, and you can call them and let them know. Maybe we can go through a couple more scenarios just for folks that are listening and have questions about it. So,
[00:06:31] Liana: Also, although this is being done in English our P2 administration department is fully bilingual. So, if there is anybody who feels more comfortable speaking in French and, and asking the questions that way, please please know that, calling the office and speaking to Melanie, specifically Melanie Hall.
[00:06:51] Rosalyn: No, thank you. That's awesome to know. And super helpful. So yeah, a couple more scenarios. So we're kinda looking at where there's money changing hands, I guess, and where the money is coming from when we're trying to determine whether or not we need a visa. My mythical avatar here is going down to play at a buddy's wedding.
And they're not going to pay me to play the wedding but it's, you know, a private event. Would that still count?
[00:07:14] Liana: So in that situation, you'd be going to the wedding anyway, if you were being paid, then yes, a visa would be required. You aren’t like, you know, the main act kind of thing, I would say in that case, you can go in as a visitor.
However, you need to show your invitation to the wedding where you're staying. You're bringing your instrument. You would need to have a good explanation. You're bringing your instrument because a musician practices daily and you may casually play at the reception or, or thereafter or something like that.
Like it could be, you know, just, it would be limited. You didn't say we'd be limited to, living room or campfire side type playing casually. So, you know, you'd have to be prepared with those explanations in that situation. And a letter from the bride or the groom stating that, you know, you are coming in to attend their wedding and not performing in any professional capacity.
That said, if you're engaged, obviously to go play for a wedding of a stranger or somebody, you know, then a visa would be required.
[00:08:20] Rosalyn: You mentioned writing a letter, and I'm wondering if we can talk quickly about showcase events because I feel like that, can come up often, and, there might be different scenarios for different types of events. Can you explain a little bit about what folks may want to consider when performing in a showcase in the U.S.?
[00:08:36] Liana: Okay. So the ones that I'm most familiar with are obviously the folk conferences like FAI, SERFA, NERFA or the bigger ones anyway. I'm sure there's all kinds that I'm missing in, in between and then South by Southwest, which is the other big one. Those showcases.
Typically you can go in as a business visitor under what's called a classification. B1 business visitor permit. We do provide letters of support for that. Typically a letter from the conference would support your entry. But there have been times where an additional letter from my office or from the AFM verifying that we do know that you're entering for semi-professional purposes, but the, it is a showcase it is confined within this.
Particular conference. And it is not for while you are there for professional reasons. It's more for again, showcasing your talents. Exactly that. And it's tied specifically to a conference. Now, let's say you're driving to one of these conferences and you want to hit bars along the way. This B1 does not entitle you to do that.
You can only play within that conference, whatever, anything outside of that conference would require you to have a visa. So musicians do make that mistake sometimes where they're like, oh, well, we'll play our way there kind of thing. And you can't, you can't do that or you can, but not without a….
[00:10:05] Rosalyn: not without a visa, yes. So, in the scenario where I mean, you brought up a good point where sometimes your, your plans change a little bit, right? So sometimes maybe you're planning to go down for something, you get more engagements. Let's say I have a visa to go down and play a festival and I've already got my visa for X amount of time.
Maybe there's two festivals. There's time in between. So let's say I got a festival in July, I got a festival in September and I have a visa to cover that time in between. What if I pick up some extra gigs? Am I allowed to do that? What should I do? Extra gigs in the U. S., I should say.
[00:10:41] Liana: Yes, itineraries can absolutely change, especially for those who are booking year long tours or they've got a smattering of dates throughout. You know, a long time frame, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean they're, you know, on a steady tour playing every night or every few nights.
So, or you could pick up an additional date, just notify our office. It is fine for you to do for anybody. What would require a refiling and new fees to file a change of employer is if you are engaged let's say by an orchestra Or in a theater or, you were engaged by Disney and then now Universal is hiring you.
And we do have those situations. Then that would be constitute a change of employer when you've got one employer, but when you're, you know, playing, miscellaneous engagements, you know, date to date then that is fine. You just need to submit your tour itinerary changes. Again, as long as it's not completely drastic and, and, and an instrumental change, then it should be fine.
But we do need to be aware of those engagements and they do need to be on your USCIS files.
[00:11:53] Rosalyn: And from my knowledge of this you know, one of the big reasons for that is that when you're crossing the border the person that's deciding whether or not you get admittance or, or that you're interacting with at the border may look up. Your website, your social media, if the dates are different and they see these discrepancies that might be a red flag for them.
Do you, so do you have some other kind of tips for how to make that, crossing as smooth as possible and what, folks should kind of keep in mind during that process of crossing the border.
[00:12:23] Liana: Typically it's the initial entry where you're going to be under the most scrutiny. The other time would be like multiple entries or if you've ever been flagged before. So, especially in border towns or somewhere like, you know, Vancouver and Seattle, you think you're just going across to play a quick gig.
You don't need a visa. It's easy. To do, done totally innocently, but because it is a professional engagement, even though it's just like, you know, you could be 30 minutes away just in a different state or in a different country you'll be flagged by the border officer by attempting entry without a visa and you may be just denied.
Until such time you would be flagged just for additional scrutiny every time you go in. And what they would be looking for is a visa the next time that you come into the United States. So those are the situations where you need to be extra careful that all of your paperwork and all of our records are in check. And if they see that you know, you've got all these other dates listed on your, social media or they Google your name and then it's not, maybe it's not even on your social media, but the venues that you're playing at, They would Google your name and potentially come up with every venue that's got you listed.
And if there's a huge difference between what's on your files and what you're actually playing, that could be an issue.
[00:13:49] Rosalyn: do you have any tips for merge and like what you're traveling with?
[00:13:53] Liana: Yes, There's two different processes. Well, a few there's informal entry and formal entry, or there is just getting your merch for the United States. Produced in the United States, which I feel that's the easiest way to do it. If you're bringing across the promotional items, then you're permitted up to 2, 500 in value of the product, but each piece of merchandise would need to be clearly labeled that it is not for resale for promo only or.
You know, something in and along those lines. It definitely should be stickered, not for resale. And so you could go in that way. If you're planning to sell the merch, then that's where really that 2500 threshold comes in becomes more important than you'd have up to 2500 where you wouldn't have to pay duty in advance.
There are some border crossings that do require an extra form to be filled out even in those situations, but that depends border by border so at the end of the day, it's much, much easier if you just get your merch produced in the United States. I will say this as somewhat of a cautionary tale I know of artists who have shipped their merch from Canada to the United States like through FedEx and some have encountered no problems while others are then dinged with the FedEx being the customs broker and then having to pay additional fees that way.
So it is not a guarantee that just by shipping, know, your merchant that it's going to be cleared.
[00:15:24] Rosalyn: Yeah, I'm still waiting on a shipment of koozies from the Folk Alliance that never made it. All those poor folkies had to drink from cans without, without koozies on them. Cautionary tale. Again, I'll plug that the CFM has a really great checklist of things to go through.
So when you are engaged in going through this process, there are checklists that really address all the kind of questions that folks have about what to bring over the border, what do I need to do, what forms do I need, how do I get this all together? Any question that's come up, you guys have, have thought of it and have put it in a neat little package.
So, Again, encourage folks to, to get in touch, cfmusicians.org.
[00:16:46] Liana: Under the work permits tab. And we have all the information there. So if there's anything that I have said that I spoke too fast, on the website is all the written information and more detailed. I'm trying to control myself from going into too much detail.
[00:17:02] Rosalyn: yes. I know that, I know that you certainly can and that's, that's why you're the expert. In the bio, I was alluding a little bit to your advocacy work and, certainly you've been on the forefront of a lot of different advocacy campaigns on behalf of musicians and fighting for a musician's rights and other interest groups.
And I guess recently there was a large campaign, regarding the increase to visa fees. There was a whole bunch of visas that were affected by this, I believe.
[00:17:33] Liana: Yes. So, for the better part of a year I had spent time lobbying along with a coalition of other US Arts entities. It's called the Performing Artist Visa Task Force. It was formed in 2001. To the premium processing unit being implemented. So that's how far back premium processing goes.
And so this group is composed of various immigration attorneys as well as entities like the Carnegie Hall Dance, USA, opera America, the A FMA two IM FAI. Is also a member of this lobbying group. There's, I'd say roughly 25, 30 of us within the arts, all various disciplines in the arts where you know, foreign entry to the United States is a main part of theirs.
function. at any rate so in January of 2023 is when U-S-C-I-S announced that it was proposing fee increases from $460 US up to as high as $1,655 US, I believe, which is where the. The O landed. At any rate, we met with the U-S-C-I-S Ombudsman's office, the state departments with U-S-C-I-S you know, in, in, you know, DC officials.
So that is, as a group. Also, the AFM was lobbying independently to top that because we are a petitioner of the P2 specifically. So we were lobbying on various platforms in opposition of such a hefty increase. Now I will say USCIS has not increased rates since 2016.
Everything is going up in price. But to go up from 4 60 to a potential 1600 plus dollars is astronomical. And it's also, you know, U. S. C. I. S. Also had to understand that a lot of these fees are borne by the artists themselves and not by the employer, only, bigger employers like Disney, who my reference before might pay a visa fee or a large orchestra or something, but vast majority, 80 percent of the visas we process are for artists who are paying their own fees.
So, we did whatever we could do and it did. What happened was they partially listened. It was just announced I believe in the beginning of February, that there was going to be a fee increase implemented. And what they did, though, is that the fee it's a little complicated, but 510 is the base petition fee for any P classification of visa.
So P123 Then there is a 600 asylum fee. And what they did is they rated who would pay it based on the size of the employer. So, if you're 25 employees or less, then the fee would go to $810. So it'd be $300 asylum fee plus the five 10 petition fee.
And for employers that are larger than 25 people it would be 16, 15, and then correspondingly the, the o would be 1655. at the high end. So. Where we fall into this with the P2 specifically is because the AF of them, who is the formal petitioner of record, is a nonprofit and because they are a labor union our status is exempt from the asylum fee of 600.
So it is again, that's very in depth. It's hard to get around because you'll hear all these different fees that are going on. Like you might, you might speak to an immigration attorney and they might say, Oh, it's 1655 and you just heard me say 510. So I don't want there to be confusion. I just want everybody to know that there are different rates and the reasons why vary.
depending on who the petitioner is and be the size of the employer. The other thing that happened recently is that the premium processing fee has gone from 25. 100 additional to 2805 additional. And the premium processing is also now 15 business days versus 15 calendar days.
So that does push up that processing time by a good, seven or so days from what people were used to previously.
[00:21:58] Rosalyn: I wonder if we can just unpack a few things. First of all, for folks who aren't familiar, we don't have to go into all the different types of visas because there are a whole bunch and all of that information is available on our website.
The CFM website, cfmusicians.org, go check it out. And it kind of lists all the different types of visas. So, the CFM specifically is the petitioner for the P2 visa. I wonder if you can just explain though, what you, you mentioned the word petitioner a bunch of times. Can you explain what a petitioner is or why somebody would need a petitioner?
[00:22:27] Liana: Okay. so nobody can apply directly. The artist cannot apply directly. It's just the U. S. C. I. S. Policy. So you need either an immigration attorney, an employer, your U. S. employer or a recognized petitioner. The A. F. M. Is a recognized petitioner. And I use that word because we're not your employer, nor are we an attorney, but we act as an attorney in this capacity.
[00:22:51] Rosalyn: Great. When you were mentioning that there is an asylum fee for employers that have over 25 employees, they would be subject to paying this asylum fee. When you're saying employer, are you talking about the person who's hiring you for the gig or are you talking about the petitioner?
[00:23:08] Liana: it depends. and they're used, the words are used interchangeably. So I understand the confusion. So yes, that's when the employer is, Petitioning for you directly that's going to come up or an attorney on their behalf. However, when there is someone who is of a not for profit or trade union status, or there's a few others then they have been deemed exempt from having to remit.
This asylum fee so you can fall under the petitioners umbrella. There is an attorney that's in our lobby group and we have reviewed this extensively and it definitely seems quite clear that if you can prove nonprofit status as a petitioner. anybody you're petitioning for being musicians, a band in this sense would be exempt from that additional fee.
[00:24:01] Rosalyn: Great. So, as an example, , CFM is my petitioner and I'm getting my P2 visa through the CFM so that I don't have to pay that extra fee. Let's say my petitioner is chair, chair and table law firm that has 150 employees they would possibly be subject to, to having to pay that fee.
[00:24:22] Liana: Yes, as far as we understand it, if they are not falling under any kind of not for profit umbrella, then yes, I will say in all honesty, the only one thing that we are worried about is the Disney's and larger orchestras. If that would raise any flags, but because the P two is a reciprocal exchange of artist programs that they're falling under, do believe that you know, the petitioner status should prevail.
I will say that this just started April 1st. So we are waiting. We're all, all of us in the community, not just the AFM are sitting on pins and needles right now, waiting to see how everything unfolds in these, you know, First couple of weeks of this really new process even for U. S. C. I. S.
[00:25:08] Rosalyn: I wish you luck in this,
[00:25:10] Liana: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:25:11] Rosalyn: When you were talking about the premium processing for folks who would say like, Why would you pay extra money to do that? sometimes you get a last minute gig offer and you're going to need that visa to do that gig.
So the premium processing is something that I think more folks than we might think of in our day to day are actually taking advantage of out of necessity of needing something processed in, in a shorter amount of time. You said. And I can't remember the exact numbers, but that was an additional process.
So is this over and above the fees that we've already been talking about, that have increased?
[00:25:45] Liana: yeah, so USCIS processing is approximately 90 days. Visas do come through sometimes in less than that time frame. But if we file in under 90 days, then it's at the musician's own risk. We recommend nothing less than 90 days. So on your example, if a musician gets the last minute engagement let's say within 30 days then in order to accept the engagement, They would require the additional 2805 atop the 510 petition fee.
So 510 is the petition fee. 2805 is the premium processing fee, and you would consider that. If you have less than 90 days to obtain a visa.
[00:26:29] Rosalyn: And these rates, is that, is that across like any international or I would say maybe like most international. Countries or is this just something like a rate special for Canada?
[00:26:40] Liana: Yes, it's for everybody. So it could be a band coming in from New Zealand, any country from around Anywhere else in the world, unless they have a not for profit petitioner, is going to be paying upwards of 810 U. S., to get their visa.
And atop that, what's special for Canadian citizens, is that they don't need preclearance through a U. S. citizenship. So I taught the, let's say at, low, you know, a band from New Zealand, 810 petition fee, then they will have to pay 260 each to be processed through a U. S. consulate. Where they live to actually get their visas.
They have to enter with a visa. Whereas a Canadian citizen, They're validated at the U S Canadian port. And then everybody, you know, nowadays it's all done electronically. You download your, your, your actual visa afterwards, but you're, you're cleared without a visa as a Canadian.
Permanent residents of Canada would have to be precleared in a U. S. consulate in Canada. So, just to make that difference there, and it is the, you know, the additional money. So, if there's any again, anything special for Canada is that they do not have an additional consular fee. And anybody who is petitioning through the AFM for their visa is looking at 510.
[00:27:59] Rosalyn: And is that per person, or is that per group?
[00:28:02] Liana: That's per group up to 25 people. So that was one of the other things that the USCIS did is they did a 25 person cap that does not affect most bands, but we do have large entourages that are 60 plus. And so very few of our files, but up to 25
and if you've got crew musicians have to be on one petition and crew would have to be on another petition.
[00:28:26] Rosalyn: Okay. And can both of those go through the CFM?
[00:28:29] Liana: Yes. So musicians would have to be members because we're only able to petition on behalf of members, but crew, of course, they're not musicians and they do not need to be members, but also we cannot petition for crew unless they're tied to musicians.
[00:28:43] Rosalyn: Okay. So, let's say then I am doing my, my, my, my job. I've got to get my visa, I've joined the union, I've joined CFM um, to make this whole process happen now I'm a union member. What should I do? Tell me a little bit about some of them, like, other maybe year round benefits that are going to come in from that membership.
[00:29:05] Liana: Yes. So we have a great insurance plan for instruments and liability. I will, say this, that there are. Engagers who will not book bands that don't carry their own liability insurance. I don't recall the rates off the top of my head, but again, go to our website, CF musicians, and you will find all of that information.
So, that is open to you. It is obviously additional rates, but they are. Preferred and you will not find better rates for those coverages. We also provide contract protection if you are actually out on tour and, not get paid for one of your engagements.
We can get money to you while you're out on the road and then take action to try and enforce that contract while you go on and play. And pension pension is a huge one so we can teach you how to start booking gigs so you can contribute to your pension. It can be done on just a miscellaneous gig as part of your overall fee. And yeah, I'll leave it at that because there is a website and then maybe I'll be invited back to do a 101 on union benefits.
[00:30:12] Rosalyn: Yeah, absolutely. We would love that. Okay, so what's the best way for folks, we've mentioned the website again, cfmusicians.org. We'll link to it in our notes there. what about, you know, are you guys on social media? Where else can people find out more about you?
[00:30:30] Liana: Yeah. So our social media is just at cf musicians.org. And for more on our international body, it's afm.org. Again, we're you know, we're, by national organization. So by joining either AFM or CFM, you are part of the whole. and we will be out at a, we're out at most functions, we will be at FMO in October, we are going to be at ECMAs.
So anybody listening who might be attending the East coast music week, we're actually doing a Francophone panel on visas.
[00:31:05] Rosalyn: Great. Well, I know that's going to be, all this information is a huge help for folks who are planning to do, do export work and, and, And do musicians and artists work in the U. S. Liana, thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us today.
[00:31:19] Liana: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
[00:31:28] Rosalyn: That's all for this episode, friends. The ReFolkUs Podcast is brought to you by Folk Music Ontario. Find out more by heading to folkmusicontario.org/refolkus. That's R-E-F-O-L-K-U-S. The podcast is produced by Kayla Nezon and Rosalyn Dennett and mixed by Jordan Moore at The Pod Cabin. The opening theme is by King Cardiac, and the artwork is by Jaymie Karn.