The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader

Travis Bader and April Vokey catch up and discuss podcasting, social media, ADHD, "toxic masculinity", and click bait for a cause.

Follow April Vokey:

https://anchoredoutdoors.com

https://www.instagram.com/anchored_outdoors/

https://www.instagram.com/aprilvokey/

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What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.

Kind: captions
Language: en-GB

I'm Travis Bader,
and this is The

Silvercore Podcast.

Join me as I discuss
matters related to

hunting, fishing, and
outdoor pursuits with the

people in businesses that
comprise the community.

If you're a new to
Silvercore, be sure to

check out our website,
www.Silvercore.ca we can

learn more about courses,
services and products

that we offer as well
as how you can join The

Silvercore Club, which
includes 10 million

in north America wide
liability insurance, to

ensure you are properly
covered during your

outdoor adventures.

Today, I'm joined by
my friend and past

Silvercore podcast
guest April Vokey.

April is a world renowned
angler, entrepreneur,

and all around cool
person who traces her

humble beginnings to
my hometown of Surrey,

British Columbia.

April, thanks again
for coming on this

Silvercore Podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Um, I love talking,
or speaking with

you and Tiff.

Well, you know, I've,
I've been looking forward

to getting together
with you for some time

now, but with you being
stuck down under, or

as the media would
have me believe in the

upside down what we're
going to have to settle

for a virtual meetup.

It's a, it seems like
things are getting a

little crazy down under.

Uh huh.

Yeah, we can talk
about that to.

We can nav, try
to balance that

one carefully.

Yes.

So, you know, with, with
Silvercore partnering

with you to offer
Anchored Outdoors

courses, I thought
it'd be good to give

my audience a chance to
get to know you better,

but you know, in all
likelihood you've been on

60 Minutes, you've been
on the Steve Harvey Show.

You've been a
MeatEater, Shorelines,

and many others.

And you only have what?

125,000 followers
on Instagram.

They probably
already know you.

Um, Nope.

Nope, definitely not
everyone knows me.

Thank goodness.

Yeah.

Well, we were spit
balling back and forth,

but a few different
ideas of, um, uh, of

a, value that we can
bring to the listeners.

And I, and I'm looking
at how many podcasts

are you in now?

You're like 158 is it?

No more than that.

85?

In eight, yeah,
it's almost 200 now.

Holy crow.

What happened?

So most of that's you
interviewing other

people, mind you you've
been on other people's

podcasts and people get
to interview you and

you probably talk about
the same stories and a

lot of the same things
coming up and which fly

rods the best, how'd
you get into fishing.

Yes.

And I thought I'd take
a little bit different

approach to this.

Um, so I said, tell
you what, I got

five questions.

You come up with
five questions.

I don't know what these
questions are gonna be.

Uh, from you, you don't
know what the questions

are going to be from me,
but the caveat is, as

we both kind of have to
answer them, if we're

coming up with it.

So we really can't
sink the other person.

Uh, so I got a
question for you.

All right.

Hit me with it.

Okay.

Henry David Thoreau
has a, has a quote and

he says "many men go
fishing all of their

lives without knowing
that it was not fish

that they were after."

Have you heard
that mode before?

Yes.

Okay.

April, what
are you after?

Adventure.

Yes?

Yeah, that was a question
that plagued me for

probably 10 years.

Honestly, I'd say my
late twenties and early

thirties, I had this
transition in life, as

many of us do as we grow
up and change and evolve.

And I definitely was
at, at, I had a moment

where I didn't know
why I was doing it

anymore, or, you know,
the age old question of

what makes you happy.

I was like, well, what,
what does make me happy?

And I kept coming
back to excitement.

Being excited
makes me happy.

Well, what excites me?

Adventure is what
excites me and therefore

makes me happy.

So for me, I'm always
in search of the next

adventure and the next
thing that's going

to tickle my fancy.

So how do you
define adventure?

Well, it depends on
the season of my life.

So now that I'm a mom,
my adventure is probably

a little more mild
because I can't die,

which is always, um, an
interesting revelation

and actually one that's
really starting to

become a very real
part of my new reality.

I mean, my husband's 50,
I'm 38, well, he's 49.

I'm 38.

And if we, you know,
with all of this stuff

that's happening in the
world right now, you

just never know what's
going, what could happen.

And w and we have a
child and I have, I can't

go on an adventure and
just die anymore, which

sounds really silly.

But when you're younger,
there's something very

free knowing that you can
go out and live your best

life and not come home.

And that you're okay
with that, but I can

no longer, I no longer
have the freedom to

be okay with that.

That would make
me selfish.

So I'm coming to terms
with that recently.

So my adventures
are a lot more mild.

You know, that, that was
one thing that I found.

Nothing makes you realize
your own mortality,

like having kids.

That's right.

It's weird, but man,
the number of times I've

gone out to do something
and that little nagging

voice in the back of
my head is, will you

be okay afterwards?

Will your kids remember
you as you were?

Will they be able to
remember you into the

future because you've
been around for them.

And it stopped me
from doing a number of

things that previously
I wouldn't even have

thought twice about.

Right.

That's what I'm
talking about.

And the other things that
it does to your brain.

I mean, remember when
you and Tiffany were up

at my place in Smithers?

Yep.

And I'd said to you,
listen, I have this

suspicion, I've got
this new black bear

on my property, the
old black bears gone.

I've got this new guy
and I don't feel great

about him, I fired
some shots over him.

He's too gutsy.

He's been
watching Adelaide.

He sits behind the cabin.

I'm not scaring him,
I don't feel great

about this bear.

Remember that
conversation?

I sure do.

So it's been, what,
two years now?

Mhmm.

Well, wouldn't, you
know, it, he is out

there killing sheep
and the CO's have put a

trap, they're trying to
get him on the river,

but he lives behind my
cabin on the property.

So there was a time when
I would never kill a

bear, you know, never.

And now I've got two
buddies and I've drawn

them out a map of this
is the, this is the bed

one, this is bed two.

This is what, what
his pattern is.

All of that fun stuff.

So it changes everything.

It changes my it's, it's
changed my, my morals,

it's changed my planning.

It's changed
my adventure.

It's just, it
changes everything.

Yeah.

And I guess there's sort
of a balance there as

well, because, well,
I guess you bring up

two things which are
kind of interesting.

Number one is,
trust your gut.

It really drives you
to trust your gut.

It's amazing how many
times people will

come up and they'll
say, you know, I had

a gut feeling about
ABC, whatever it was.

I thought that
person was bad.

I thought that
animal may have done

something, but people
don't act off of it.

I found the older you
get, the less you start

caring about what other
people might think

about your actions.

And if you trust that
gut, all of those

indicators that you
have at that moment

that are giving you that
gut feeling, those are

the things that people
look back on and say, I

should have known because
A, B and C, but the

process of rationalizing
that through your

logical brain.

I don't know.

I think, I think it's a
step, uh, being a parent,

that you just stop caring
and you don't have to

rationalize it anymore.

It's in the gut
feeling and you

just work with it.

But do you know, two,
two things on that.

One, I have a buddy
who's a detective in

America and he told me
years ago, one of the

number one things that
he sees with homicide

cases that could have
been prevented is that

the woman verse, we were
speaking specifically on

women's safety or safety
on women in the world.

And he was saying that
most of the time, the

woman knows that she's
entering a situation that

she should not be in.

Her gut is screaming for
her to walk away, run,

call for help, anything.

And because of what
she's, she's worried

about what society
will think of her or

being rude or whatever
it is, the stigma

she's worried about
portraying, she ignores

that and therefore, um,
often ends up in harm.

But the second part
of this is, being a

relatively newer hunter,
I have really opened

my eyes in watching
animal behaviour.

Especially during certain
times of the year.

I mean, I know it's
not fair to, to speak

entirely during the
rut because males are

an entirely different
beast during the rut,

but I hunt year round,
cause I'm not just

looking, um, you know,
I don't just wait for

the two week, awesome.

Excuse me, time
in the rut.

Hunting is a
year round thing.

You're constantly
tracking, figuring out

patterns, learning new
property, all this stuff.

And so I've noticed
consistently that

the females seem to
be more in tune with

their instincts than
the males do, whether

it's goats, deer.

Um, I haven't
necessarily found birds

maybe, maybe birds.

I'm not a huge bird
hunter, but I have

noticed specifically
around here with

goats and with deer
that the females tend

to know whats up.

They have this
weird spidey sense.

And so for me, it's
like, well, I mean,

maybe I'm not, maybe I
I'm reading it wrong,

but I know I get busted
by females a lot faster

than I'm busted by bucks.

And it just makes me
question as humans,

do we, as females also
have some sort of peaked

spidey sense or instinct
when it comes to danger?

You know, I think
some were back in our

little reptilian brain.

We male, female, we all
have it, but the male ego

will quite often get in
the way of, uh,accepting

what you're feeling.

They call it women's
intuition or guys will

have gut feelings.

And In order for a man to
have a gut feeling, more

often than not, the man
will sit here and try and

rationalize it, or maybe
there'll be driven by

other things, hormones or
something else that kind

of override what that
gut feeling might be.

It's interesting that
you notice that in

wildlife as well.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I would
say it's mostly, in my

situation, it's mostly
hormones where I have

found that because
I'm just, I'm thinking

now, you know, when I
am hunting and I, I,

I had to batch up like
a bachelor property at

buck property and they
are pretty onto me.

I will say they are
pretty onto me when

they're all together.

But during the rut
especially, is when

you see that the males
are obviously occupied,

they're going through
all these chemical

changes that's happening
within their bodies.

But the females you
ever noticed, the way

that they sit, even, you
know, they've got someone

on the lookout and.

Right.

You know, I even am at
the point now where,

when I'm trying to
sneak up on, you know,

a number of deer, I try
to tell myself, okay,

don't let that don't
have any intention.

Don't, don't be thinking
that you're going to

kill something right
now, because I just

don't know how deep
that instinct goes.

Can they sense
that they're

being preyed upon?

I mean, I don't know.

There's a lot of people
who think you do.

I remember one guy
was out hunting moose,

and he says, uh, he
was a European fellow.

He's like, you gotta
be thinking happy

thoughts when he walks
through the bush.

Don't think I'm a hunter,
I'm out here, I'm going

to harvest something.

You got to think
I'm happy, I'm just

enjoying the bush.

He was a very successful
hunter, so there might

be something to it.

Yeah.

I don't know, but
we are animals and

that does, that's the
key takeaway here.

You know, we are animals
at the end of the day.

And I think that we
just shouldn't be

ignoring that gut.

How do we get onto that?

I don't know,
but, uh, I'm okay

yapping about that.

Um, so I think
that was all from

the Thoreau quote.

What drives you?

And you talked about
taking less risks

as you get older.

Have you reached a point
yet where you looked

and say, I want to start
taking some more risks.

Oh yeah.

Like the day after
I gave birth.

Yeah.

I never changed.

I think that's the thing.

That's the big thing
is, you know, everyone

says, oh, you're
going to change.

And for, yeah.

I mean, I was the person
saying I'll never change.

And I guess we've just
established that I have

changed, but not me, not
April the person, I still

am just as wild as I was.

I'm just not allowed
to be as wild as I was.

I'd just have to be
more responsible,

you know, but.

A little bit
better containment.

Yeah.

But yeah, no, I I'm
at the point now

where I'm ready to get
wild and crazy again.

Uh, but I'm stuck.

I can't go anywhere.

And it sucks because
we were all aligned

to do all these wild,
crazy adventures.

And we had started that
again when lockdown

had lifted and now
we're back in jail.

Well, you've almost
died a few times.

I'm, being rafting down
the river when your raft

overturned and it's,
course thatcar accident

you were in was, uh,
was, you're pretty

lucky to walk away from.

Big time.

Did you have other
experiences like that?

Oh, I think the
usual, you know, I've

had a lot of bear
encounters when I used

to guide on the Dean.

We were in Tweedsmur.

So surrounded by grizzly
bears, I've been charged.

Um, I can't think
of anything that's

too obvious.

You know, I haven't
had, it's not like I've

wrestled a Cougar or
anything, or any of the

stories that some of
your guests have done,

but you know, it's just
part of the, it's just

part of the experience.

If you're going to be out
in the bush, it's, that's

just part of the gamble.

Yeah.

You know, I've before
having kids, I said,

tell you what we've made
the decision gonna have

kids, my life is on hold.

I'm going to live
100% for them.

Now that my kids are
getting a little bit

older, I'm looking
and saying maybe that

wasn't entirely the
right decision, because

there's definitely a
lot in yourself that you

need to feed so you can
provide the best possible

you to your kids.

And so we find ourselves
going out on more and

more adventures and as
they get older, they're

now accompanying you
on those adventures.

I must be a horribly
selfish human because

I never thought that.

And I, and I will
admit if we're being

totally honest.

And because we're
friends, I went through

a bit of guilt because
I kept waiting for

that thing to happen.

You never, I kept saying
you're going to change.

So I kept waiting for
this change to happen.

And I kept waiting
to put her life first

and it would be all
about her and it

just never happened.

And then I realized it's
because I had a child

too, because I finally
felt like I was ready

as a woman to give a
person on this planet,

the best that I'd had.

I mean, I've been
working for 40 years to

be the best self, you
know, my, my best self.

I can't, if I lost
all that and just

totally abandoned all
of these years of work

and was overshadowed
in this, you know,

societal stigma of what
motherhood should be.

Then I knew I was going
to actually deprive my

daughter of all of the
things that I'd worked

so hard to pass onto her.

So to me, it was almost
like I gave birth to this

little by little compadre
and yes, I'm responsible

for her and I love her
more than anything, but

she's, um, I'm not ready
to give up my life yet.

Does that make me a
horribly selfish human?

No, I don't think so.

I don't think so.

I think the whole idea
of giving up your life

in order to live for
the kids is, uh, was

probably a little too
far on the end of the

spectrum of my, my iod,
ideology is definitely

come on back because you
need to have something

that you're continually
developing in yourself to

be able to share with the
little ones that you're

bringing into this world.

I don't think, I think
you're just a little

bit more rational than
I was in my approach to,

uh, into all of that.

But you were a
young parent, right?

How old were you
when you guys?

Good question.

Uh, lets see, uh if I
,2007 had the first one.

So what would
that make me?

I don't even know
how old I am.

People ask me
how old are you?

I don't know.

I was born in 1978
and I do the math.

I think that's 43 now.

Uh, so 43, takeaway 14.

So I would have
been yeah, 29.

Yeah.

And what a time.

I don't know if
that's young.

But 29 is such an
interesting time.

And I don't know if
it's the same for

men, but I know myself
and my friends, 29,

29 to 34 was huge.

That was a huge pivot.

Uh, just, uh, a big
change in our, in

many of our lives.

So, I mean, I don't know.

Maybe there was, maybe
it has something to

do with that, may.

There's a lot of
reasons, but here's

my question for you.

Now, let me throw
this back at you.

Here's one of my five.

If you, looking back
now and do it being so

responsible, because when
you tell me you're 43,

it makes me it does, it
makes me go, oh my gosh.

I mean, you guys have it,
you guys are so together.

You and Tiffany
are so together.

When I think of people,
I really look up to

as entrepreneurial
husband, wives, parents.

I honest to goodness,
conservationist, I

think of you guys.

I really do.

I'm deeply flattered.

I put on a very good
illusion I guess.

But there's only four
years between us that

I feel like you're 25
years older than I am.

Looking back now in all
of that responsibility

that you've taken on,
do you feel like in

your twenties and your
thirties say you missed

out on something that
you would change now,

if you could go back.

Ooh, that's a
good question.

So in some aspects, no.

So when I look back into
my younger years, I was

not excelling in school.

It just wasn't
the thing for me.

And in fact, I
was politely asked

to leave several
different schools.

I think I had five
different high schools

and went to a couple
of different, uh,

elementary schools.

It just wasn't for me.

But I looked at some of
my friends who were going

on to post-secondary
education and or career

trades training, and
they were getting

their life in order
at such an early age.

And they were earning
and they were, uh,

being able to acquire
all the things that

at that age you figure
you should have, right.

They've got a vehicle and
there they've got a place

that they're getting.

And I, I didn't
have that.

I kind of floundered
or foundered, whatever

the word is, in school
and I got out and I

just, I was all over the
board, ADHD kicking in.

I was working several
different jobs and, and

trying to build my own.

And finally, I
reached a point.

I said, you know what?

I want to retire when
I'm 32, I want to be

able to have mortgage
paid off, be able to

retire by the age of 32.

How do I do that?

And I started looking
at different business

models that I could
possibly take on.

And I came to the
conclusion that

whatever I do, it's
going to require all

of my effort, 110%.

And I'm not going to
be able to have the

benefit of a, sort of
an education roadmap.

Like some people go
to business school

and they know one
plus one equals two.

I know the path, they
know the formula for

generating a livelihood,
but I knew I wouldn't,

I wouldn't thrive
in that setting.

And I would once
again, be the same

as my previous
schooling experiences.

So I really did
approach it from a

school of hard knocks
and just nose to the

grindstone sort of way.

Um, and I was
fortunate enough to be

successful at an early
age, more through

pure determination
than anything else.

I mean, if I wanted to be
able to make X amount of

money at the end of the
month, I would find a way

to be able to do that.

Now that might've been,
let's say I make a

hundred dollars in one
month, but I worked

every single hour of
at each day in order

to make that, I can do
that, but I would look

back and say, does the
ends justify the means?

Like, was it
all worth it?

So when I look back,
did I miss anything?

In some respects, I
started giving up all of

my evenings and all of
my weekends, because I

was providing training
to people who, when that

was their free time.

So I missed out on some
of this stuff on weekends

and evenings, but to be
honest, that was never.

That was never
something that was a

true driver for me.

Like I worked in
nightclubs as a bouncer,

but aside from that,
I didn't find joy

or pleasure in going
out, partying it up.

And I never really wanted
to be the weekend warrior

with everybody else and
all the other crowds.

So I, I can't say I
missed too much there.

When you talk about
a pivotal point in

your thirties, my
thirties were a blur.

I mean, I, I spent
eight years from about

29 onwards, uh, just
in a blur, just trying

madly to keep the
business afloat and

keep things running
and, and, uh, fighting

different fights.

And just, there was a
lot of difficulties and

strains during that time.

So I really don't have
much of a thirties when,

when you mentioned that
and it sounds weird, but

I feel like I've missed
most of that period.

And that was a by-product
of being an entrepreneur,

I think, and not
necessarily taking

the precautions as an
entrepreneur entrepreneur

that's needed in order
to protect yourself

from outside parties
that may wish to try and

do what you're doing.

And so that, that, from
that perspective, I

think it was probably
a very necessary

point of my learning
process to have that,

but not one I'd ever
want to have repeated.

I don't know if that
answers the question.

Yeah, it does.

It's it's funny, you
know, you have to

invest, everything's
an investment, right?

So you're investing
the time to be

able to play later.

Right.

So work hard now,
play hard later,

all of that stuff.

But I'd be very
curious if, because a

lot of things happen
emotionally, right?

When you're young and
running around and

traveling and just
being, especially

in your thirties.

So I'm going to be
watching you very closely

for a midlife crisis.

I'm going to see what
happens in your fifties.

Somehow.

I can't see a midlife
crisis, a friend of mine,

he talked me into, um,
he says, you gotta get

your motorcycle license.

And it just so turns
out that a school that

I taught out of back
in my early twenties,

a fellow there, he's
their, their lead

instructor, brilliant
instructor, really

great guy runs a school.

Uh, he says Trav,
come on in, come on,

you gotta get your
motorcycle license.

I think that's
the closest to a

midlife crisis.

And of all of that,
I've, you know, I enjoy

riding motorcycles, but
I got no desire to be

able to drive around
in the lower mainland.

Seeing, seeing too many
of the adverse side

effects of that one.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

That's that, that
is a good one.

How about you would,
uh, you've I mean,

like you've worked
your butt off.

You have been so
passionate towards

every endeavor that
you've just jumped

feet first into it.

Do you look back and say,
man, I wish I tempered

myself a little bit.

No.

I was always
a workaholic.

I mean, from date,
from the beginning,

from the first, I was
a workaholic before it

was allowed to work.

I mean, I remember taking
my babysitting course

when I was a kid and
printing out cards and

door to door and I was
trying to pick up as

many shifts as possible.

And I would've been, I
would've been what 11, I

mean, just a total kid.

Sorry, I'm going to just
shut this email down.

And um, and then from
there, you know, going

to work in restaurants
from the age of 13, I

think it was 13, 15,
whenever you're, whenever

you're allowed to work.

And as soon as that
happened, I was

working two jobs.

And then, uh, I started
my first business at

21 and I've always
just, it gets me off.

I love working, but,
but I've always played

hard in the day and I've
always worked hard at

night and my sacrifice
has always been sleep.

So I sacrifice sleep.

And so looking back
now, it's hard to regret

sacrificing sleep because
all you do is have

a good night's sleep
and you forget that

you sacrifice sleep.

Totally.

So it's, I don't
feel like I've

given anything up.

Well, what was it that
drove you to work?

Was it the money?

I think so, at first.

Yeah.

I think I want to
security and stability.

So I, uh, my strategy
a friend asked me

this the other day,
what's your strategy?

And my strategy has
always been that I'm

a long-term player.

So I've always,
I mean, I started

investing at 16, right.

I was always looking
very, very long

in the future.

I'm always
looking way ahead.

And so I think for me,
um, you know, I was

driven by being prepared
to have all of the

chess pieces in place
so that when I was in

my forties, I could
relax, which is ironic

because now I probably
work harder than ever.

But I think it's because
I just love it so much.

And I'm finally on to
a business plan that is

really working and I love
it and it's satisfying

and it's just, I'm, I've
never been so fulfilled

as I am right now.

But, um, I, it was
probably about having

security and money
so that I could

fish all the time.

Right.

I never wanted to be
loaded, but I wanted

to have enough money so
that I could do what I

wanted in the daytime.

And that was at the
time fish, now more

recently, fish and hunt.

Um, but then, you know,
a couple of things

happened in my life
and, um, you know,

one day I did actually
wake up to some money.

Some things had happened
and I woke up to money

in my account and it
didn't change anything,

nothing changed.

I didn't feel any better.

I didn't feel any
more relieved.

I didn't feel any
less stressed out,

like nothing changed.

And that was when
I thought, okay, so

why am I doing this?

And, um, part of the
problem is my brain goes

a million miles an hour.

I'm like you, right.

My brain just, but it's,
it's just constantly,

can't sleep at night.

And that's one of
the reasons why I've

always worked at night.

I just cannot sleep at
night, I thrive best

off five hours of sleep.

My brain just.

Stop.

Right.

And so, um, I just
need to keep it busy

to be totally honest
and what better way

to do it than to do it
with the business that

you love and you're
passionate about, and

that does help support
you and does help bring

income to your family.

Um, and like I said,
in more recent years

built a community of
people that you really

enjoy hanging out with.

I like that.

And you know, even
though you said that

money was probably the
motivator from a young

age, when you're talking
there, it didn't sound

like it was money that
was a motivator, but

the proceeds of money,
what money will bring

you, and that brings
you your hobby, that

brings you the security
that brings you.

Time.

Time was, I wanted time.

I wanted to be able to
have enough money so

that I could use my time.

So what was it that
Rockefeller said, I

think it was a reporter
that asked him.

It says, how
much is enough?

And he says just $1 more.

Right?

Always more,
always want more.

And there's at, there's
always this drive within

certain people to want
to build more, to create

more, to have more time,
whatever it might be.

But at some point this
will all end that,

that time will end.

Do you feel like right
now, you are dedicating

the appropriate amount
of time in your day to

what's really important?

Do you?

Oh are you asking
me that right now?

Yeah.

Oh, well, it's a really
tricky time right

now because it's,
we're in lockdown and

have been for like
a year, by the way.

I know.

I mean, yeah, we get,
we get like two weeks

here and there, but
we are, we are in a

very, very strange time
and I'm, I'm starting

to forget what normal
felt like to be honest.

And so right now, no,
I don't feel like any

of those things are,
are happening, but I'm

also quite literally a
prisoner in my own home.

I love my home.

What does your
lockdown look like?

Oh you can't, you
can't leave the house.

So I know the
media was making it

seem pretty crazy.

There were helicopters
above telling people

to get inside and there
are helicopters telling

people to get inside, but
right now, as it stands,

it's absolutely asinine.

I mean, I can't
meet a friend at

the park with kids.

I can't even.

Wow.

Meet a friend at the
park with children.

They're changing it.

So now for vaccinated,
we can hang out together

in the park, but, and
again, this is a very

slippery slope and
probably not the right

platform for this.

And I am certainly not
the right person to speak

on this, but it is crazy.

And I've told Charles
I will give it, I

understand Canada
or BC has got an,

a mandate coming in
soon, mid September.

I think it's the 13th.

We've got a, uh, uh,
COVID passport that

they've proposed and
say it's coming in.

I'm going to very
patiently wait and

see what happens.

And I've told
Charles that come

November I'm leaving.

But right now, so the
reason why we haven't

left is it's illegal for
an Australian citizen

to leave the country
and has been for almost

two years, by the way.

So.

So Charles can't leave.

He can't leave.

So I can, with Adelaide
and we can leave.

But the problem is is
that even if we apply

for a permit to come
back, because I'm not

a citizen here, I'm
a Canadian citizen.

There's no guarantee
that we can get back

before 10 months.

And so that's a long
time away from picking

my daughter away from
her father, which I would

never do to her because
for all she knows,

everything's normal.

We've played things
very, very, very

normal for her.

Sure.

But 10 months away from
her father is not normal.

And then, and then
I'd have to do two

weeks quarantine with
a three-year-old in

a hotel, which just
is also not normal.

So, um, this is a time
where I've definitely put

her and my family first.

And, um, and I don't
mind cause I stay busy

with work and we, we do
live in the country here.

So there's lots to
do, but, um, I don't

know how much more of
it I can take Travis.

It starts to weigh
on your mental.

I mean, there was, there
was, it was just on

the news the other day.

There is a remote
community of Aboriginal

people who called to
say, we can't get food.

And the government,
whoever they'd

calledhad said call
Uber eats, they're in

the middle of nowhere.

So somebody went out
and shot a kangaroo

to feed the community.

And they were told by
the government that

that had to stop.

I think w they must've
been either selling it

or give at, there was
something that broke

the law about wild meat,
that it wasn't fit that

wild game meat wasn't fit
for human consumption.

So if that doesn't
start to drive a person

a little bit mental, I
don't know what, what

will, so I'm hanging on,
but I probably have about

two months in me before
I start to crack I think.

I tell ya, you know, I,
I did a podcast a couple

of days ago with a, a
fellow super nice guy,

uh, ex British Special
Forces, Commando, uh,

intelligence, um, worked
as a spy and corporate

spy and a really
interesting backstory.

You know, he was
talking about his

concern being the way
that the information

is being disseminated
and how discussion

around, whether it be
lockdowns or passports

or COVID in general is
not being permitted.

And he says, you
know, from a military

intelligence standpoint,
there's a lot of things

that are raising his
concern because they're

very similar to what
countries will do to

third world countries
in order to, to,

to feed information
or misinformation.

He says, I don't
have the answers.

I don't know what
the answers are.

I don't think anybody
on the internet is going

to have the answers
for you, but the fact

that the conversation
is so stifled without

somebody being called,
uh, an anti-vaxxer

or, um, flat earth or
whatever it might be,

he says that's a very,
very concerning thing

from his standpoint.

I don't know.

It's um, it is getting
a little bit, uh,

disconcerning when
I, when I look at

what's going on.

Yep.

And that that's, I just
taking it all in right

now, just learning,
just watching it all,

learning, trying to keep
business afloat, trying

to raise a daughter,
trying to stay sane and

just listening to it all.

So it'll be very
interesting.

I think the next
two months are going

to be very telling.

Why the next few months.

I think that September,
middle of September

is going to be a very
telling time in Canada.

So I'm curious to see
how that unrolls, I

think that from what
I've seen anyway, it

looks like cases are
ramping up in America.

And I think that that's
going to bring about

some policy that is
probably going to

upset some people.

And I know that Australia
is at its breaking

point right now.

Um, and, and this
lockdown is also

set to end in at the
end of September.

And so if that doesn't
happen and it extends

into October, it's
all just going to

be a big mashup.

So I'm just, I think the
next realistically is

probably the next month,
but I always like to

give myself some padding.

So I'm going to
say two months.

Two months, I think
you're probably onto

something there.

I think as we take a
look at the, uh, the

numbers and the trends
that we've seen in the

past, uh, you're going
to start seeing in areas

where they, they figure
there's no issue or

issues starting to arise.

Yep.

So we'll just see what
happens, but, um, but

yeah, the work is keeping
and that's one of the

other reasons why I want
to continue to work.

I go to work every
day on my, on my work.

I have an online
company and I really

genuinely love the
people I work with.

And I'm a huge
proponent and fan

of online learning.

I use it for everything.

I use it.

I, I spent a fortune
on online learning

from gardening to
taking classes on

cryptocurrency and
understanding investing.

I just love investing
in online education.

And so I get to go to
work everyday with an

amazing community and
create online content

to help myself and
others really be able

to thrive in certain
outdoor scenario's.

So for me right now work,
if I didn't have work

right now, I would be
going, I think a little

bit out of my mind.

Fair enough.

Well, maybe I'll leave
the COVID stuff for a

little bit, but when this
one comes out in a few

weeks after it's been
recorded here, we'll,

uh, we'll be closer
to that a one month,

two month period here.

It'll be
interesting to see.

Indeed.

Okay.

What's your
next question?

I got it right here.

You're a role model
for a lot of people.

You are followed
by 125,000 people

on Instagram.

You've got people
following you in your

training programs,
through social

media, through TV.

Do you see yourself
as a role model.

No.

And.

Sorry.

Does it.

Didn't mean to
cut you off.

Does it shape how
you behave and

present yourself?

Yes and no.

So, um, I don't think
that that social

media following really
carries any merit

and I have a number
of reasons on that.

I mean, I'm sure when
people first started

following me on social
media, it's because

I was a woman who
fished that doesn't

make me, it doesn't
make me a role model.

It just makes me a
woman who fishes.

Um, you know, more
recently I've had a

lot of outdoor parents
follow me because

they want to see how
to navigate that with

their child outdoors.

Does that make
me a role model?

No, I'd say it makes
me a pretty like-minded

outdoor parent and it
makes us a community.

Uh, now when it comes to
being more responsible,

as far as being April
Vokey the brand, because

sometimes I've had to,
you know, call myself

that because if you're
trying to shop yourself

for television or you're
trying to shop yourself

for even teaching
workshops or speaking

at clubs or, or writing
articles, you know, you

are selling yourself
that I always knew that

I came with a level of.

Um, contention, I
guess some people

are like, maybe I
had some controversy

behind me just because
I have been in the

spotlight for so long.

I was in the spotlight
when I was younger,

doing stupid things and
not, not that stupid,

but you know, just being
one of the first young

woman on Facebook, as,
as a young, we spoke

about this when I was
on your show last time.

You know, it's just
people, don't always

like you when you're
in your early twenties

and I can't blame them.

So, but by moving forward
to now, you know, as

a woman who is almost
40 and is beyond just

April Vokey, now I'm
Anchored Outdoors.

I have a community to run
and a membership to run.

Now I feel a level of
responsibility because

now I actually know
who my audience is now.

My audience, I have
several thousand members

who are my community
and my people, and

they're watching me.

And I do feel a
responsibility, not as

a role model, but as, as
a part of that community

or as the moderator
of that community.

Yes.

I do feel a level
of responsibility.

Interesting.

And of, have you felt
a changed how you act?

Yeah, I'm not
as controversial

as I used to be.

I didn't use to stir the
pot for, for traffic.

That was never
even a thing then.

Um, I, I stirred the
pot because for me,

it made people think,
and that was why

I stirred the pot.

But that was also
before I had a podcast.

And it was before
I had a voice.

So I had to get my point
across with social media,

which made you want to
bash your head against

the wall because people
don't pay attention

for longer than eight
seconds anyway, or via

articles, which is always
hard because there's

always more to the story.

So now that I found
a voice though, and I

have a podcast and I
have an avenue and a

way to have these long
form conversation, it's

allowed me to be a lot
less controversial and

a lot less provocative
because I now have time

to get my point across.

And I now have time to
let all the words come

out in the conversation.

So it has as have I,
has it been my audience

and the community that's
made me smarten up and be

less of a shitster, no,
it's having a platform

to actually have long
form conversation.

That's allowed me
to settle in to not

always having to stir
the pot and just let

the organic long-form.

I keep saying long-form
conversation, but

that's because I
think that that's

what we're missing.

And I, and I think that
that's what we need to

really help navigate
through a lot of the

trying times that
we're having right now.

I find the desire
for long form is

more and more.

You know, when I started
my podcast, my very

first podcast I ever
truly listened to was

yours at the MeatEater
episode down in Seattle.

I think that
was, uh, oh geez.

How long?

That was the number of
years ago where i, I

had no time or patience
for, uh, for podcasts.

I consume most of my
information by reading

or through YouTube and
with my office being

a 10 minute walk away.

And my studio being a
10 minute drive away and

my home office, who's
got time to listen to a

podcast, but I'm finding
more and more people

are growing tired of
the quick clickbait,

old clickbait that
used to work doesn't.

People are seeking,
I think they're

seeking emotion.

They're seeking some sort
of a, um, an intellectual

or emotional connection
to whatever it might be

that they're consuming.

And I find that
on a greater and

greater basis.

And I don't know if
that's just because

the way that people
interact has been so,

um, so changed through
basic technology and

texting and, and,
and all the rest.

Or if that's a direct
relation to being

locked down for so long
and people just, they

want to, they want to
feel something real.

And I, I, I'm getting
so many people

commenting and saying,
Travis, you're longer,

the longer you go.

Cause I used to keep
these around 40 minutes.

I seem to remember
somebody telling me 40

minutes is about the,
uh, the timeframe, the

key frame that you want
to keep your podcasts.

And I thought,
okay, 40 minutes to

an hour thats max.

Now um, I'll just,
I'll let them go.

And we'll see where it
goes and people seem

to be enjoying that.

Yeah.

And I think that they've
always enjoyed it

even before lockdown.

I know my season, I think
I'm in season seven and

they've always gone on
and on and, you know,

sometimes maybe they
drone on, but I really

do believe that it's
the one way that we can

really truly get the
whole story these days,

because where else are
you going to get it?

I mean, I've worked
in television.

I assure you that is,
that don't even get

me started on that.

But the amount of stuff
that hits the editing

floor that you never
see, um, you know,

trying to work around
commercial breaks

also clickbait, not
necessarily to click, but

to keep you tuning in.

So you don't
change a channel.

Um, just, I mean,
clickbait is sums it up

for so many of these,
of these platforms,

whether it's social
media, whether it's

a news article that
you're reading, whether

it's television, but
podcasts are, they seem

to be our last form
of this sort of, you

know, unedited, truly
authentic conversation.

So, and that brings you
back to my initial point.

I've seen a lot of my
peers start to feel

like they have to be
less provocative in the

way of stirring the pot
and getting people all

riled up for clickbait.

I mean, there was a
time when I used to,

if I wanted to get
people on board for the

conservation, um, project
or a conservation focus,

I would try to post
a picture of myself.

I've never been like a
bikini babe, but I would

try to post a picture
of myself that would get

people to look like if
you're scrolling, you're

going to look, whether
it's to hate me or to

love me, I needed you to
stop, but I needed you to

stop because I needed you
to read the caption and

then read the comments,
which were always

about the conservation.

Right.

But I needed that
clickbait to stop you.

I know myself and a lot
of peers have stopped

needing to clickbait
because we just,

they call me now, the
biologist called me.

I've had government
call me and say time

to hop on a podcast.

So that is very
refreshing that we no

longer have to, you
know, stoop to our

hot photos of us being
blonde in our twenties.

Cause we know that we can
just hop on a podcast and

people will be generally
quite receptive to it.

But you're at your
place right now because

you've taken that
route in the past.

Love it, hate it.

People for it,
against it.

Would you change how
you got to where you

currently are now?

Or do you think that.

No.

It still is, is a path
that, is one that you'd

recommend to others?

Oh, as far as, um,
clickbaiting yourself.

Right.

I don't think it's
necessary anymore.

I mean, I mean, maybe
it is for someone who

doesn't have a platform
like this or doesn't have

a podcast, maybe it is.

I think that there
are always ways that

you can do it that are
still modest and humble.

I was like, I wouldn't,
I wouldn't suggest

that you take off
your pants and post a

picture of your bum.

Which I see people do,
um, or, you know, crazy

twerking moves to get
people to stop scrolling.

I think that there are a
number of, of wholesome

ways that you can do it.

And I would like to just
preface this by saying

what, or go back and
say, when I was posting

pictures for clickbait,
I mean, what was

considered provocative
would be me in a pink

cardigan with a pink
hat on with blonde hair.

I wasn't doing anything.

I was just
different, looking.

Right.

You know, or I had God
forbid back then mascara

on, which was a really
big deal back then.

Um, so it would, you
know, stop people

because who is she?

Why is she fishing
wearing makeup?

It's not a big deal now,
but back then it was.

And so, yes.

Um, you know what I
would, I change that.

Absolutely not.

That's exactly who
I was back then.

It's not like I
put all that stuff

on or dyed my hair
blonde to go fishing.

I was, as we've discussed
before I was caught,

you know, serving,
I was a cocktail

server and a casino.

That's just what
I look like.

Right.

Um, so no, I wouldn't
change any of that.

I, I wouldn't
change a thing.

But what would you
recommend to other

people at via path
that you would take?

Yes.

No, both, depends
what it is.

Yeah, okay.

So, you know, if you're,
if you're a young, if

you're a young babe,
man or woman, right.

And you've got a photo
of yourself and you

think then you've got a
message that you really

need to get out like now.

And you think that
posting that photo, let's

just talk social media.

Cause it's easy.

Sure.

That posting, that
photo is going to stop

people right away and
somehow drive them to

that petition link or
to that, that, that PDF

or whatever it is that
you need to get them to.

And it's
wholesome enough.

I mean, but it's makes
people stop then yes.

But sometimes the
best option is to

post a picture of
a Steelheads face.

Maybe that's,
what's going to

get them to stop.

So read your audience
and do what you have to

do to get them to stop
within, within reason.

So I, would I suggest
people to do what I

did back then, as far
as being wholesome,

but choosing a photo
that made people stop.

Sure.

Would I suggest you
take your clothes

off, uh, and violate
your own integrity?

No, definitely not.

Right.

What about you?

Have you been in a
situation where, because

listen, all business
owners get in a situation

where they need to
drive traffic and we go

through all the things
in our heads, right?

It's like, okay, if
we're not going to

pimp ourselves out,
are we going to team

up with an influencer?

Are we going to team
up with another brand?

Are we going to try
to be controversial?

Are we going to work
with this organization?

Are we going to step on
the side of politics?

Are we not going to step
on this side of politics?

Have you been in a
situation yet, where

you felt like you had
to drive yourself to

one of those factors to
get your point across?

No, I haven't actually
had a situation where I

have had to, uh, where
I've had to really

try to drive myself
in a way that might

be contrary to how I
normally would do it.

I have actually found
myself in more situations

where I'll stubbornly
do the opposite, where

people will ask for
certain things to be

able to, uh, in order,
certain contracts that

we've come up with and
they want to see a, B

and C, I guess, working
outside of the TV world.

We, like in the Hollywood
world, which I've done

a little bit of work
with some people in,

in media, man, the
requests can be weird.

The, um, uh, the
dynamic can be really

weird and you really,
really have to stick

close to your guns.

Uh, if you don't
want to compromise

your integrity.

So I haven't found myself
in that many situations

at all, where I've had,
or I've been asked to do

something, which would
be contrary to how it

normally comport myself.

I, I guess maybe it.

Here's a
question for you.

Bear attack, you
have a podcast

about a bear attack.

Yep.

What image, and this is
different because it's

not trying to drive
traffic to conservation.

Ahh.

This is driving
traffic to sales,

but so what image.

Okay.

Do you use to try to
drive traffic to your

bear attack podcast?

That is a good question.

So when we start talking
about thumbnails for

the, uh, uh, let's say
on, on YouTube, or I did

a, I've done, uh, Colin
Dowler attacked by a

bear, put an image up.

It was a picture
of me and Colin

and we're standing
beside each other on

a bit of an incline.

And, uh, I mean the
guy I'm 6'6", 250.

And I mean, I, I put
him up on an incline

beside me and I still
look like Sasquatch,

right beside him.

I mean, this guy is
a smaller fellow.

I think he weigh's
125 pounds and that's

his fightin' weight.

And, um, mind you,
the guy fought off

a grizzly bear.

And so I thought this
is a great picture,

throw this thing up and
it just wasn't getting

the traction I want.

So, you know, what's a
picture up right now, a

great big old snarling
grizzly bear because

people will look at this
and say whoa, look at

that scary grizzly bear.

Maybe I should
listen to this.

So yes, I can definitely
see where you're going on

that one in the same way
that a, I did a podcast

with a friend of mine
who did SAS selection,

twice actually.

And he was in the British
army and, uh, doing some

really interesting stuff.

And although we talked
about everything under

the sun, I knew that
people will want to

listen to his story
only if they can see

the SAS selection to
kind of get them in to

the, uh, to click on
it, to get in there.

So, yeah, I can
definitely see where

that game is played.

So yeah, so you have,
so you have experienced

it to some degree and
listen, I've worked with

various news outlets
or media outlets where

it kills them at the
core to have to focus

on things like bear
attacks and other stories

that drive traffic.

They want to be covering
other topics that aren't

clickbait, but they
are for one reason or

another forced to, you
know, by the powers that

be, um, focus on things
that will drive traffic.

And therefore up
their, their views.

I could see that I, you
know, I guess the closest

I've ever been to having
people say, I want you

to do ABC, or I want
you to say something.

I, I, I do work with
different law firms.

I do consulting.

And sometimes some
lawyers will turn around

and say, well, would
it be fair if you said

AB and they'll try and
reframe or rephrase

whatever it is that
you are presenting

as a court expert.

And you have to be
very, very, uh, attune

to exactly what it is
you're saying, and not

allow other people to
try and manipulate what

it is that's coming out.

So there's been some
that have hired me to do

work for them when, in
fact what you're doing

is acting as a subject
matter expert for the

courts and not for them.

And so you always just
have to keep that in

the back of your head
and regardless of how

they want it framed.

And there's been times
when I've put together

reports, which are
completely contradictory

to what it is that I
know their client or

they wanted to get,
and they've worked up

and down to try and
get something that

at least was usable
for their, for their

case or their defense.

And you have to be,
you have to be very,

very sure of what your
messaging is and just

stick to what your gut
is, because once you

are influenced to maybe
change or maybe agree,

or maybe it's a grey
area and you can see

it from another side,
I personally feel that

it'll be easier and
easier as you continue

down to perhaps look at
things from different

perspectives and be
influenced out of it

as you go forward.

So I can see areas
within my spectrum of

work, where people have
would very much like

me to say one thing
and I've had to very

consciously, uh, stick to
what I know to be true.

And to borrow from
liberal speak, I have

to speak my truth.

Right, that is.

Which one lawyer
says, don't say that

because that would
imply that there is

more than one truth.

Yeah, yeah, it's true.

Anyways.

So what's your a and I
do, and I just want to

make it very, very clear.

I have two very separate
mentalities when it comes

to sales for my company
and marketing for my

company, versus trying
to urgently get people

to a conservation issue.

To me, they're
very, very, very

separate things.

Um, because again,
I'm always looking at

business as a long-term
game, but often with

con with, with co with
conservation, even though

it is also long-term
most of the time I'm

reached out to you with
real urgent matters.

And so I need to
get people people's

attention now.

Right.

Yeah.

I like what you say
about business being

a long-term game.

I think people who look
at it in the short term,

and I know some people
like that, I've seen

them make millions.

I've seen them lose
millions and I've

seen them do it
over and over again.

And, uh, one good friend
of mine, he's built so

many businesses and he's
made so much money and

he's lost so much money.

Uh, he's finally taken
a different approach,

looked at a long-term
and man he's built

something that here in
Canada is worth millions.

Oh good.

And it was only because
he, he finally took the,

uh, the approach of, look
at it as a long journey.

And I mean, even in
what you're building, in

your training and your,
your members and your

community that you're
building, I think you're

like me and perhaps the
desire and the impatient

ness, can speed up.

And you're like, I want
all of this now I want to

have, I want to be able
to provide the absolute

best for the community
and have everything that

they need right now.

But that process of
growing and building

is what's going to make
the community strong and

it's going to be what
builds massive value

later on down the road.

So you can look
at retiring or.

And it being authentic.

I mean, authenticity is
so important for me when

it comes to business.

And I spoke about
this before.

I don't know if I've
mentioned it to you,

but prime example of
business and clickbait

and driving traffic now.

It would be very easy for
me to hire instructors

who've got large social
media followings.

But.

Sure.

That would go entirely
against my business

model of being
authentic and playing,

you know, long-term
or, or striving for

longterm, uh, results.

And, and, and I believe
that authenticity

and long-term
go hand in hand.

I think that they're
one in the same,

in many ways.

And so I choose to hire
instructors who are the

best at what they do, not
who have the most eyes.

Which isn't necessarily a
great sales strategy, but

it certainly is providing
the best quality and

the best um, it's the
best thing possible for

our students and for
our members, because

they are genuinely
learning from the best.

You know, I've seen some
courses, I've looked

at different online
courses that people

have, and there's a lot
of sizzle and no steak,

a lot of flash on a buy
now look at, and you

can upgrade and you'd
get into the course

and you look at it.

You're like, why did
I pay for this thing?

Like, it looked really
flashy, but what's

the actual value that
I'm getting out of it.

And that's where I've
just loved what you're

putting together,
because you care so

deeply about what the
end user is going to

experience out of this.

And you and I we've had
conversations about this

back and forth, uh, ad
nauseum about the value

that you're bringing to,
to the end user and to

the, to the community.

And if there's something
that you feel just,

just, wasn't a hundred
percent that it just

wasn't really on point
you're feeling guilty

and this, this stuff
you've never even put

up because of that.

Yeah.

So I think that.

It hurts.

Totally, and I
think that often.

It's like money down the
drain and you're like,

ah, but it's a learning
lesson, you know?

Yeah.

But you know, the
long-term money

down the drain, it's
not there right?

You put, throw, you,
throw it out now and it

eats at the integrity
and it eats at what

people feel that they
can trust out of a brand.

And so I would
much rather throw,

I would run.

For example, we spent,
uh, a good chunk

of money with an
organization recently

exploring a route that
we're going with one

of our endeavors, only
for me to say, no.

No, deep down, at a core
gut level, this isn't the

right way for us to go.

And two weeks later, they
came back with another

group that they're
bringing in, which is a

thousand times better.

It's going to be so
phenomenal for what

we're doing, even
though I was so like pot

committed to this one,
being able to say no.

And looking at that as
an expensive learning

venture led to in only
two weeks period of

them coming back with
something that is better,

is so much better.

So I, I, I'm a thousand
percent on the same page

as where you are on that.

If you don't have what
you feel to be the best

quality productout there.

Only the best food
leaves the kitchen right?

Or, you know, you gotta
add some seasoning to it.

I read every single
review and I listened

to every single bit of
feedback that I get.

And then we just
build on top of it.

So you felt we were
missing that in

that course, what
we are adding that

to that course.

I mean, just constantly
adding, building,

making it better.

Right.

So that's been a big
part of it too, of, of,

of this business, for me
having a business that's

community-based and not
April Vokey based is that

you have to learn how to
take criticism and not,

not in a negative way.

You have to learn
how to take criticism

and really see it as,
as great feedback.

Um, and, and I
think that's.

Yes.

Been my biggest learning
lesson over the last

couple of years is I
remember I used to get

the, you know, web form
inquiry and my stomach

would go upright.

What have I
done wrong now?

Or you get a review
and what have I

done wrong now?

Right.

Or a cancellation, what
have I done wrong now?

But then you go,
okay, well, hang

on, they're right.

I'm going to listen
and I'm going to make

that better so that
I don't have to feel

sick again when I get
that web form inquiry.

So just building upon it.

But the only way to do
that is you have to have

a quality product and
person to begin with.

And so I knew in my gut
and in my heart that

I was never going to
be able to genuinely

stand behind courses
that were led by

people, just because
they have a strong

social media backing.

So I've had to focus
on instructors who are

genuinely the best.

Some of them don't
even have social media.

Some of them, when I
say, can you please post

that your course is live?

Are like, where
do I do that?

How do I edit this link?

So, you know, it's.

That's hilarious.

It's trying, but
at least, at least

it's genuine.

So anyway, that's,
that's, we probably

flogged that one,
but, um, yeah.

That's where I stand
on authenticity

and, and business
versus conservation.

And trying to get
your point across

urgently fast.

Yeah.

And it's 189 episodes.

I'm looking at it here.

I think you're at
189, almost 190.

Holy moley.

For, for you, for your
age, that that's crazy.

Are you, as I look, as
I look at that number

of episodes, is there
any part of you that

says, man, I got to
record another episode

or are you just like,
I can't, I love it.

I get, I get to record
another episode.

Uhm, yeah, no, I think
what it comes down to

is, oh, I've got an
edit another episode,

you know, that's
different, but recording.

No.

And listen, if I, if
I feel like I'm in an

anti-social week, I just
don't book any podcasts.

Right.

There, I, I know I need
to stick to my schedule.

Uh, they, all the
gurus say, make sure

you post the same
day at the same time.

I don't want to
exhaust myself.

It's not fair
to my listener.

Right.

I mean, to my listener.

I want my guests to
know I'm genuinely there

to hear their story
as so know, I'm not

there yet because the
stories that I'm, that

I'm listening to are
really, really inspiring.

My podcast has made
me a better person,

hands down, every
day of the week.

Like there's no,
there's no way to grow

an ego when you're
podcasting some of

these men and women.

Because you just, you
can't help, but look

at yourself after and
think, how can I, how

can I be like that?

Or how can I have such
a full life or how can

I do what they've done?

You know, they,
they really humble

me, big time.

So out of all the
podcasts that you've

done, you've talked
to so many people.

Is there one person out
there that you would love

to have on your podcast,
but you haven't yet?

Oh, maybe, maybe.

I don't know.

I think I've had most
of the P uh, yes.

I mean, the answer is
yes, for sure, there is.

And listen, there
are people who don't

fly fish that I like.

I'd love to have
Jordan Peterson

on my podcast and.

Tell me about it, yes.

Not for clickbait.

I mean, I would do
it without recording.

I just have got so
many questions for him.

So there are people
outside of fishing.

Um, there is a woman I'd
really like to get on,

her name's Diana Rudolf
and she's, uh, this

amazing Tarpon angler.

She's very private and
she's one of the best.

And I would love to pick
her brain about certain

things, fishing and from
an industry stance, why

she's chose, chose to
go the route she did.

She had a baby
later in life, she's

married to someone
else in the industry.

All of these things
are very interesting

to me, but, but no.

So, so far there's
been a lot of people

who I didn't realize
that I needed to hear

their story to grow.

I mean, um, I interviewed
a man named Ted Jurassic

on the show, um, and
you know, he walked

me through life and
concentration camps and

you know, we're both
in tears in that one.

And Frank Moore,
you know, he's in

his nineties and the
most happily married

man I've ever met.

And just those two
guys and, and there's

a few others I've
walked away from those

episodes different.

I've walked
away different.

I was not the same again.

And you know, it used
to take me having to fly

to Argentina to have the
sort of transformation

and to be able to do it
in a two-hour segment

of going into their home
and sitting with them,

let's say three hours.

Of seeing their lives
and walking away three

hours later, different,
as a different human.

That's really cool.

What about this whole
online podcasting?

Like it, don't like it.

What are your thoughts?

Look, it's.

I like it because I can
get more people that I'm

really interested in.

And it's a great
way to, to obviously

stay connected and,
and meet new people.

But there's nothing quite
like walking into John

Geer X home and seeing.

Right.

His house and drinking
coffee with them.

And just going into
his messy desk area,

you know, hanging
out with his wife,

that kind of stuff.

Seeing the deer in his
front yard, that there's

nothing quite like that.

And it's, it's the
little thing I hate.

I hate, I know the
word nuance is used too

much these days, but
it's all those little

tiny things, right?

The awkward silence, the
comfortable silence of

drinking coffee and not
having to say anything.

Maybe we have lunch.

All those little
things to me are

the, I mean, that's
where the magic is.

So I think that we
get the job done,

but I don't know if
it's quite the same.

You know, I've, I've
had some people who

were eager to come on as
guests on The Silvercore

Podcast, but they said
only if it's in person,

so I'm waiting for
borders to open up so I

can start traveling to a
few different locations.

But they say a hundred
percent, the only

way I'll do it as
if it's in person.

They say, I don't feel
like I can open up and

talk to somebody over
a camera or over the

internet, which I can
totally appreciate.

I think that's
a learned skill.

And I think it's,
it's difficult to

get a temperature
check on the person

and see where they're
at when, when it's

through a screen here.

But I thousand
percent agree it sure

makes life easier.

I mean, you don't have
to get, leave the house

and you can have, you
can have that Argentinian

podcast, right.

That's right.

Exactly.

There's an energy when
you're in the room.

And it floats over
all of you, right?

It's like this pixie
dust and it just

does something.

Yes.

It transfers
back and forth.

And unfortunately it just
doesn't seem to transmit

through the screen
quite as well, but.

Not in the same way.

Yep.

So, you know,
swinging, swinging it

back around at you.

What about you?

Who would you have on.

You know what?

I met the guy once
I thought he was a

pretty cool individual,
the chances of them

ever coming on the
podcast, like slim to

none, but Bear Grylls.

I figured Bear Grylls
would be a cool guy to

have on the podcast.

The guy has the Guinness
Book of World Records

for a youngest Brit
to summit Everest.

He crossed the Atlantic
ocean in a rigid

inflatable boat from a,
I think it was from Nova

Scotia over to Ireland
in a, like a little,

little rigid inflatable
boat with, I think it

was a three man crew.

I think he took a
paraglide over top of

Everest, uh, longest
indoor skydive, like the

guy's a mental fortitude
and positivity is crazy.

And I would love
to be able to chat

with him further in
a podcast scenario.

I think that.

Bear are you.

That would be fun.

Listening?

Bear, where you?

Come on Bear.

You know what he, you,
you you'd be surprised.

And that is the great
thing about this digital

world now is I'm, I
am finding a lot of

people are agreeing
to do it because it is

very simple for them
to just hop online.

So it's worth
reaching out.

What would you do if
you were disappointed?

What would you do
if halfway through

the interview?

And I've been there,
halfway through the

interview, you realize,
uh oh, this guy isn't

what I thought he was.

Do you, as an
interviewer, take that

conversation down that
road and start asking

some tough questions or
do you just play along

with the bop and the
happy-go-lucky facade?

What do you do
as an interview?

Where, where do you
draw the line on your,

um, on your integrity
as far as, uh, being

somebody in journalism or
reporting interviewing?

So in my podcasts
that I do, I've always

encouraged a two-way
dialogue, but it always

tends to be more often
me asking questions and

them answering questions.

And some people can
take those questions

and they'll build
a story and they'll

tell all about it and
they're super engaging.

And some people will have
the back and forth, but

more often than not the
people that are coming

on have never really been
in a situation like this.

And quite obviously
there'll be some nerves

and these things that
you have to overcome.

So, um, I'm, I feel
like I'm still finding

my voice within The
Silvercore Podcast.

I specifically called
it The Silvercore

Podcast because I
wanted to be able to

talk about anything.

It's not Silvercore
firearms, it's

not outdoors.

It's not, I wanted
to be able to talk

about whatever it is.

My ADHD mind kind of
fancied at the moment.

Cause like you there's,
there's so much

more to my interest
level than just that

one singular thing.

Um, so when I first
started doing these

podcasts, my major thrust
was, I want to make sure

that people come on here
and there they've got a

platform where they can
share their positivity.

I want to find positive
people who have

extraordinary experiences
and be able to share

that in a positive way.

And sometimes I would
navigate the conversation

in such a way when
they were pitfalls.

So they wouldn't fall
down those pitfalls.

I am learning to shut
my mouth a little

bit as hard as it is.

I'm learning to
shut my mouth.

And if they want
to talk about some

of these pitfalls
or these areas that

might be contentious,
to do so, because

that's what a true
conversation truly is.

It's not one person
trying to guide them

through the questions
and through things.

If they want to bring
something up and

talk about it and
throw it back at me,

I am providing them
that opportunity.

But that's a learned
thing when, when I

first started, no,
I, I definitely help

people kind of avoid
certain things.

Would I push them down
that rabbit hole further?

Um, I might ask
questions about it if

they open the door.

If it's something
they're truly

uncomfortable about.

No, I want to be
able to showcase the

best possible them.

And I want other people
to know when they come

in that the best possible
version of them will

also be showcased.

Yeah.

I think if that answers.

It does.

Yeah.

It's a big difference
between the gotcha

interviews, which I
actually can't stand

and, and the genuine
two-way conversation,

you know, it's a
tricky one to navigate.

It's a balancing act for
sure, because you want

to lead them through.

Um, but you, you
also don't want

to censor them.

Right.

So, so that's what,
it's tough to navigate

that, but no, I think
you do a great job.

But yeah, sometimes,
and it's not

necessarily a pitfall.

I mean, sometimes these
awkward subjects, they're

there to discuss them.

I've been there.

I've been on a show where
I, I def I wanted to talk

about something awkward
and we did discuss it

and then he cut the whole
thing out of the podcast.

But I was there.

Now I want to
know what that is.

I was there too.

It doesn't matter now
this 15 years ago, but,

or 10, 15 years ago.

Yeah.

Um, and looking back
now, maybe he did save

me a bit, but it was,
it was actually, no,

he wouldn't have now.

Nowadays, with us
being honest about

some of the things
that we've seen in the

industry and in me too.

Um, and I, you know,
this is a long time ago.

I shouldn't have
been censored.

I should have been able
to have said what I

said without it being
cut out, I taught I was

there to talk about it.

Hmm.

Yeah.

So, you know, so
sometimes you have to

let your guests take
that fall because it's

not a fall, they're
that's, they're there

to talk about it.

Has anyone ever done
a podcast with you?

And then they turn
around and said, man,

I wish, I wish I didn't
say certain things.

I didn't want to have
certain things out there.

Yes.

All the time.

But I say before I
press it, before I press

record, I say, this is
, don't come to me after to

ask me to edit anything
out, tell me during the

recording to take it out.

And so, no, I haven't had
someone come, come to me

after they'll they will
ask me during recording,

hey, that's off record.

Can you take that out?

And yes, absolutely, I
just take it right out.

I've had episodes where
I've cut out a whole

hour because we'll end
up, you know, going

down this road of
talking about their

relationship and how
it ruined their lives.

And it gets very
emotional and it's not

necessary to be aired
to the world so that

stuff just comes out.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

I can see that.

Yeah.

I do a similar thing.

I say, once it's gone
live and it's going out

there, it's out there.

So anytime before
that, let me know.

Uh, but usually I've
only, we've got one with

a government organization
that I'll be doing

shortly and, and they've
asked for full review

after it's done, which

.
And it'll be all scripted
anyway, they don't even

let you ask the question.

We need you to submit
your questions first.

Then we need to know
exactly how we're going

to script our response.

It's there, the
government interviews

are the worst.

I actually won't
take them anymore.

I won't take them.

Really?

Nope.

If you're going to, if
you're going to come

on my show and air your
politics and all of your

total bullshit, you have
to be retired or let me

sway the conversation
as it's going to go

because they, they,
they want to script

and control the whole
conversation down their

own narrative and no.

Good luck.

Good luck with that.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Well, I've got
them to agree with.

So I, I looked at, I
said, here's the general

gist of the questions.

I said, listen to
the previous podcast.

I'm not here to
play gotcha games.

I'm not here to, here's
what the intention is.

I said, but if you
want to have engagement

and you want people to
listen to what you have

coming out, you're going
to have to be genuine.

And that's going to
be, if that's going

to require not all the
questions ahead of time,

because I've done that.

I've I had one group
before and I provided

all of the questions.

That person came on,
great guy, a really

talented individual,
really knowledgeable,

but very nervous.

And they wanted to
know what all the

questions were.

And we provided basically
a whole list of exactly

what I'm looking to do.

That podcast started
and ended in under

15 minutes, because
they said, they had

all the answers and
there was no, there

was no conversation.

So he came back
afterwards and said,

how about a story
about A, B and C?

Oh, I could tell that.

Or how about a personal
experience about this?

Oh, I guess I could
expand on that.

Probably one of the
most, uh, time-intensive

editing processes to
try and seamlessly

weave all that back
in, into things.

But we're able to do
that showcase in a

great light and it
taught me, I am the

taught me a few things.

Don't talk to the person
too much before you

get into a podcast,
because all the good

stuff is talked about
before and afterwards.

Never, never, that's
like rule number one,

don't ask any questions.

Even if you look super
rude while you're

sitting there before
you press record.

Totally.

I don't provide them
with all of the questions

and information ahead
of time, because your

response will come
back to scripted.

Yeah.

One that I think out,
I I've tried a couple

of times, which is
I'm just going to

keep things recording.

We're wrapped up, we're
done, but I'm going

to keep the re uh, the
recording process go.

And we can just kind
of debrief on a few

different things.

And it's funny, I've
had some podcasts that

are almost entirely
the after conversation.

Do they know they're
on record, do

they know they're.

Yes.

On record?

Okay.

Yes.

Oh no, no.

A hundred percent.

I said, I'm just going
to, this is a chance for

us to be able to relax.

Talk about a few
different things,

regroup over stuff.

It's still recorded.

Maybe we'll put this as
a, as a interim or use

it if there's little
sound bites that come

out of here that we can
use on social media.

Great.

And if we don't like
it, you just let me

know and we can just,
we can wipe that part

after, afterwards.

And so no, a hundred
percent, I would never

ever trick anybody on the
recording process because

that's a surefire way to
never have anybody else

want to come on the show.

And some of the
best conversations

happen the second is
you stop recording.

So I found that to
be a useful trick.

Yes.

And then the other one
that I do is I always

do push it a little
far with that one extra

question that I know I
probably shouldn't ask.

And so my trick is,
and is really hard

as I'll ask it, it
hurts to ask it.

It makes me cringe
sometimes to ask it.

And then in the weird,
awkward silence, right

as I'm about to say
something, I will

literally put my tongue
between my teeth, so

that I don't break
either of us out of it.

And I let them take us
out of it because they'll

take you out of it one
way or the other, but

it's usually, it usually
brings that conversation

just to that next little
bit of down to earth,

real raw honesty and
some beautiful things

happen out of that.

It doesn't have
to be gotcha.

It doesn't have to
be controversial.

Sometimes it's emotional.

Sometimes it's something
about their childhood

that they're, I've
had so many people

on the show stop, and
this is why the beauty

happens in the silence.

The beauty happens in
the silence and that's

why I bite my tongue,
literally because

they remember things.

And you can see
them remembering.

And it, as, as people
who read, read people,

we want to help them,
but they need that

moment just to remember.

And then some of the
most amazing things

happen when they step
back into their past.

Can you hear
the kookaburra's

laughing at me.

I can hear 'em.

And I like
that technique.

That is what are the
hardest ones for me to

practice, and I know I
should be doing that.

And for whatever reason
I tend, I have, I think

maybe I have to do what
you do is literally

stick your tongue
up into your mouth.

Because you don't
want, she's seeing

people uncomfortable.

I see it all the time
with you, you know, I've

known you long enough.

You really don't
like seeing people

uncomfortable.

You don't want to
push people down.

You want to pull
people up right.

Right.

And so sometimes in
that moment of silence,

you think that they're
dropping, but they're

actually coming up.

So just let them
find their footing.

I think that's
awesome advice.

Yeah.

I did a, a number of
courses on interview

and interrogation
and some with the

Vancouver police or
with the Reed Institute

out of the states.

And there's, there's
all these different ways

to be able to elicit
information from people.

And I've never wanted
to use those techniques

in a podcast scenario.

Because quite often
it'll feel manipulative,

but one technique that
they talk about, which

is very, very powerful
is simply shut up,

keep your mouth shut
because socially, people

want to be able, the
silence is uncomfortable

for everybody.

People want to fill
that with something.

And if you shut up, the
person will keep talking,

just like I am right now.

No, but you know,
what's beautiful

about it though.

And this is where
I learned my lesson

was in editing.

In that moment, the
silence feels like it

goes on forever, but in
the edited version, when

you, when you're looking
at the audio waves, that

silence wasn't nearly
as long as it felt.

That's a really
good point.

So sometimes that
, three, four seconds

of silence feels like
it's 40 seconds and

it's painful, but trust
the audio waves, bite

your tongue, let them
find their footing.

And they'll almost,
listen if they don't

want to go down
that road, they will

usually, there'll
usually be a sign.

And listen, if, if panic
flashes over their eyes,

I'll shut, you don't
have to answer that.

It's all good, you don't
have to answer that.

You know, you're reading,
you're reading them.

That's why, it's why it's
nice to be in person too.

You can see, you can feel
like you're breathing

in their energy.

You can feel that change.

So we do lose some.

Yes.

Of that by doing
it remotely.

That energy is something
that's palpable at times.

When you're in the
podcast studio, like

we brought up Colin
Dowler before I just,

his emotional story of
what he went through.

There is so much
of that that ended

up cut out because
from a psychological

perspective, here I am
flown in, at his house.

He was kind enough
to let me in and

do this interview.

And I want to hear the
story about how you

fought off a grizzly
bear with a knife.

And all I'm hearing
from him is minutiae

and details all around
the event, as opposed

to the actual event.

And I could tell
at a certain point,

he is emotionally
and psychologically

avoiding that, that
whole instance again.

And I remember
telling him, I

said, look at Colin.

It doesn't matter
that I flew out here,

it doesn't matter.

Why don't we
go for lunch?

We don't have to record.

Let's just listen.

He says, no, no, no,
this is important.

I want to get this
story out if we can

save someone's life.

And, but that the level
of connection and, um,

that vibe that you get
with some of the people

is, uh, uh, I find
is what drives me to

be better at what I'm
doing here and everyday

I'm reading, looking
at different ways to

be better at this.

Boom.

So if, oh go.

No, that's exactly right.

So, if you had an
uncomfortable question

for me, what would
that question be?

Oh, it's probably
political.

Um, uh, well, I just, I,
I'm always very curious

how you manage politics.

I don't know if that's,
if I'm going to die on

the sword though, I
don't know if that's

the one I want to go on.

You get one chance!

Just one.

Um, if I had to ask you
a really uncomfortable,

well listen, I did
have, that was one

of my questions about
regrets in life.

Uh, that'd be our w
we did cover earlier.

And then I also
did wonder how you

navigated marketing
through integrity

versus clickbait.

We've covered that, but
yeah, politics, I mean,

you, you work primarily,
or you're known in a lot

of ways for firearms,
which is an incredibly

polarizing subject.

It's something
where you can be

painted into a box.

And listen, I get a
little bit frustrated

sometimes because I've
been painted into the fly

fishing steelhead box.

Even though I fly
fish around the world,

I fish saltwater.

I hunt, I do all of these
things, but I'm a fly

fishing steelhead girl.

How does it feel being
painted into the box

of firearms company and
how are you planning on,

I mean, I guess that's
two different questions.

Let's stay away from
politics because

I don't understand
gun politics at all.

From a branding stance,
how are you planning

on stepping outside of
being put in the firearm

corner, cause nobody
puts bady in the corner.

No one puts bady
in the corner.

So what's really
funny about that

question is the one I
had for you next was

getting pigeonholed.

Ah hah!

And talking about how
you were putting into

a box and how you're
breaking out of that.

Yes.

People look at
me as a gun guy.

I get it.

I get why they would
look at me as a gun guy.

I have never looked at
myself as a gun guy.

I got my first gun, I
started shooting when I

was four, got my first
gun when I was five,

competed as a preteen and
teenager, I've trained at

all levels of government
and trained others at

all levels of government.

I've gunsmithed for
a number of years

for police agencies,
armour car companies,

for private security,
done work with, all

over the board and in
the firearms world.

And I have never once
considered myself

to be a gun guy.

Those gun guys, they're
the ones that the

gun show, they're the
ones on the forums.

They're the ones
doing all of these

other things.

Um, they're really
diehard, they're into it.

I've always considered
myself, you know, I

guess I've had a hard
time really putting

my finger on exactly
what it is that that

truly drives me.

But like you, I think
it's the adventure

of the unknown.

Excuse me.

So when, when I was
younger, I would push

myself on adventures
quite often, which were

extremely dangerous.

And I would come out of
that feeling invigorated.

And I would tell others,
I said, you never

feel truly alive until
you've reached a point

where that threshold
between possible life

and possible death
is, is razor thin.

You leave that.

And I felt, hey, on
top of the world,

this is great.

And I've had to take
a look at a way that's

probably a lit, a
bit more healthier

to navigate into
the adventure and

the unknown and I've
done that through

the business world.

So I've been pigeonholed
by many as the big guy,

or the gun guy, or I
think most who truly know

me would see me more as,
he's a family man, and

he has way too many, um.

Toys.

Yeah.

And hobbies.

That's how I see you.

Right.

I love it though.

What are you going to do
with, how are you going

to play with all these
different toys, right?

Yeah, I dunno if it
comes from not having

many toys growing up
and trying to reach

a point where you can
actually have something.

I never ever figured
I'd be the type of

person to achieve, even
just a fraction of what

I've got and if I'm
able to help others.

Because at my core, I'm
always, what gets me

really excited is being
able to help others

do similar things, to
see other people reach

their full potential.

Um, I, I think that would
be, uh, perhaps a pigeon

hole that I would be more
or a moniker that I'd be

more comfortable wearing.

Uh, then than
the gun guy.

I consult for law
firms or federal court,

provincial Supreme court
on firearms and use of

force related matters,
I still don't consider

myself the gun guy.

I don't know.

I guess it's easy in the.

All right.

So where did
we leave off?

We were talking
about pigeonholing.

We're were talking
about pigeonholing

and I forget what the
actual question was.

And I think I meandered
all around on my answer

there a little bit.

You did a little
bit, but what is your

plan moving forward?

Are you planning
on trying to very

cognitively and
very deliberately

break out of that?

So what I see is
the firearms world,

although I don't see
myself as a gun guy,

is the majority of what
I know through life

and through business.

And it's where I've
put so much effort

up until this point.

But I do see the
writing on the wall

in so far as a social
stigma associated with

the firearms industry.

All it takes is one
lunatic to go out and

use a firearm in an
inappropriate fashion.

And the world's in an
uproar again, all of

a sudden Shopify is
closing down people's

accounts if they
have firearms related

activities or merchant
providers are saying,

yeah, we're backing out.

We're not going to
use you anymore.

And from a long-term
business model

perspective,
that's scary.

And I think it makes
sense to try and take

that conversation.

I mean, you're
essentially going

against almost a a
hundred years of social

engineering on the
perception of firearms.

I don't know if that's
something that I

really want to take on.

I mean, I can, I can go
against that current.

I can try and I can
try and fight it, or

I can find a way to
change that narrative

in a positive way.

Moving forward, there
is a definite conscious

aspect to how do you
grow the game forward

using what you know,
but in a way that is

acceptable to today's
current cancel culture.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Dun dun dun dun.

We just opened up a
new can of worms..

Oh, tell me about it.

So there are so many
opportunities that I

have been provided in
the firearms industry

and continue to be
provided that I am

simply not taking up.

Although lucrative, the
emotional energy required

to push that one forward,
in my opinion is not

worth it at this point.

And I feel like I can
do a heck of a lot

more for the outdoors
community, for the

hunting community, for
the firearms community,

by, by transitioning the
narrative of how firearms

are typically looked
at and into something

that's way more socially
acceptable and riding

current trends that
are currently in place.

I mean, it doesn't take
a genius to have to log

into Google trends and
see what what's popping

and what isn't, and be
able to leverage that

one much in the same way
that, um, Shane Mahoney,

as a environmentalist,
as a conservationist,

is taking an approach
to, uh, getting

people interested in
conservation, uh, is a

similar approach to what
I'm looking at doing

with firearms and with
my business in general.

Yeah, absolutely.

No, I like it.

I think you guys
are doing great job.

It's funny, isn't it?

How a business can, you
know, unintentionally

form someone's
opinion about you.

I mean, I remember
meeting you and Tiffany

very clearly, like
it was yesterday, and

thinking to myself, I
just automatically put

you guys in a box and
I'm not against firearms.

I have firearms.

But for some reason,
when you guys told me

you're into foraging and
going crabbing and all

of the wonderful things
that you're doing and

going fly fishing and
stuff, I just, it was a

surprise, which is really
ignorant on my part.

So unfortunately with
our, our short attention

spans these days, we
tend to, it's easy

just to put people
in a box and decide.

It totally is.

Where you're
putting them.

And then you know
where to turn to when

you need that box.

You know what I mean?

It's not fair.

Yeah.

You know, I
enjoy surfing.

I like skateboarding.

I got my electric
skateboard.

I'll take into work.

I enjoy mountaineering.

I enjoy snowboarding,
skiing, scuba, fishing,

hunting, firearms.

I mean, it's just, it's
all over the board.

Like woodworking,
metalworking.

I like electronics and it
just, the list goes on.

And for me to be kind
of pigeonholed into one

simple area as firearms
alone is uh, I don't

know, it's somewhat
limiting and it's one,

it's one area where I've
never allowed myself to

be truly pigeonholed in.

May, maybe I consciously
fight getting too far

into there cause I
know that's going to

take away from other,
other areas and other

interests that I have.

But I think in the end
it'll lead to a more

holistic community
and uh, and business.

That's right.

People are
multi-dimensional,

we're not just, you
know, one or nothing.

But I have a
question for you.

You have mentioned ADHD
a number of times now,

and as somebody who, I
don't believe I'm ADHD,

but I know that I have
a very similar brain to

yours in a lot of ways.

And I have my own
uneducated opinion.

So it's very much just
an opinion on ADHD.

I do wonder sometimes.

And my sister's
a, uh, a doctor

that's psychiatrist.

Yeah.

Which is the one
that yes, she's

a psychiatrist.

And so I know that she's
got all this medical

stuff around ADHD, but
I often wonder sometimes

if people who have ADHD
just are people who

should be outside, maybe
when we were younger.

I mean, when we were
primitive or more

primitive, you know, back
in the day, maybe that's

the people who had ADHD
were meant to be out

there providing for, you
know, their families.

Anyway, we could go down
a whole different, like

I said, very uneducated
tangent on that.

I would sound like
a complete ass if I

don't already, but.

You don't.

But, well, I just, I
remember once I think I

said something and this
would have been again

about a decade ago, I
said something about ADHD

isn't real or something.

And I had doctors
just put me in my

place pretty fast.

So I'm very much ignorant
when it comes to that.

But I have my own
little theories and

speculations about that.

But, but, but let me
get on track here, ADHD

and you, Travis Bader.

One thing I do know a
lot about, as far as

having a racing mind
and fly fishing, is that

they can work really
well together or really

poorly with each other.

Because fly fishing
is very meditative,

meditative.

And so if forced, I
mean, you could meditate

by listening to the
sound of wind, right?

You just have to
focus on the sound of

something else beyond
your own thoughts.

And so with fly fishing,
uh, you focused on

a particular motion,
which is actually

quite repetitive.

And so it can be
very meditative for

a lot of people.

As somebody who has
a brain that goes

a mile a minute,
sometimes it's good

to help me slow down.

And sometimes it's
impossible because I

can't get into casting
because my brain's

moving a mile a minute.

You are pretty new to fly
fishing and your brain

moves 200 miles a minute.

Does fly fishing pain
you because it's just too

hard to sit still or has
it helped you to relax

and focus and meditate?

I think you have
a number of good

questions in there.

I almost feel like you
pulled a punch there as

well, at the beginning.

But my personal
opinion on the

whole idea of ADHD.

So I was diagnosed with
ADHD when I was in grade

three, I was, uh, told
that I was a perfectly

lovely human being up
until I hit school.

And, uh, my parents would
tell me that the teachers

ruined me, right.

They, and the school
system, and I just

didn't jive with it.

And, um, by grade three
I was taken in, I was,

uh, diagnosed with
ADHD and prescribed

a lot of Ritalin.

And in fact, as the years
went on all the way up

until grade seven, I
was prescribed Ritalin.

I was told by my doctor,
I was on the highest

dosage of Ritalin, uh,
that he's aware of, of

anybody in the province
because they could only

prescribe X certain
amount in per pill.

So he'd have me takin'
eight pills in the

morning and six pills
in the afternoon.

And man, I was humming
because Ritalin

is a stimulant.

My personal thought on
all of that is there's

a lot of people out
there who will want to

have a label for why
they are a certain way.

Whether that's
ADHD or, or, or

whatever it might be.

It makes them feel more
comfortable with who

they are as a person and
describing their, makes

them comfortable with
their own idiosyncrasies.

I am not entirely sure
I have ADHD, despite

being diagnosed with it,
despite the troubles in

school, despite having
to do the, the Ritalin

and all the rest.

I remember talking
to a person who was a

professional individual
at one point and they

said, is there any
point in your life

when you felt you
didn't have ADHD?

And I was, I said,
well, yeah, you know,

I was, um, when I was
traveling around the

world and in certain
countries or, uh, I was

19 years old, couldn't
speak the language of

the people around, so
you're quite quiet.

You're quite,
uh, observant.

And I found there is
a very, very calming,

calming process.

And when I finally did
return home for years,

for about a year, I,
anyways, everyone says,

man you've changed.

You're different, you're
calm, you're quiet.

Right.

Um, so the person
said, well, if you had

that, what makes you
think you do have ADHD?

So ADHD from my
understanding is

something to do with a
disassociation between

the prefrontal cortex
and the rest of the

brain and how it, how it
interacts and why people

will tend to not look
at consequences, which

was one thing when I was
growing up, I wouldn't

look at consequences.

I would do things, not
thinking that the end

result of what I'm doing
could be my death, or

it could be something,
I would just do it.

Cause right now in
that moment, that was

something I was keen on.

But in other ways,
uh, it could be

environmental, right?

If you're living in a
certain environment and

there's a certain level
of chaos in your life,

perhaps you seek out
chaos because that's

what you know, to be
comic, normal, natural.

Perhaps I put
myself in situation.

Exciting.

Right.

Which makes you
happy, which brings

us full circle.

But yes, continue,
continue.

I'm fascinated.

Right.

So was I putting
myself in these

situations, which were
dangerous or exciting.

I mean, just,
just stupid crap.

And you know, part
of me wants to say it

because people will be
like, oh my God, I can't

believe you did that.

It would be interesting
for discussion.

The other part realizes
that my kids listen

to the podcast.

So I think I'll leave
those parts out.

Um, is it, is it a
by-product of a, uh,

disassociation or the
neural network between

the prefrontal cortex and
the rest of your brain

and making decisions
and consequences and all

the rest, or is it how
you, uh, deal with your

surroundings and react
to your environment?

Um, so when you look
at fly fishing, for

example, some people
say, man, if you have

ADHD, you get hyper-focus
other people say, no,

no, no, no, that's not
hyper-focus, that's the

inability to unfocus.

It's not that you've
got this great

thing going on.

It's the fact that you
can't switch gears like

other people normally do.

I see that in myself
when I work, I work.

And in fact, I, I re you
know, I can remember one

shift pulling in, I think
it was 27 hours of just

working and there I am
in the shop and it would

be a normal occurrence.

I mean, Tiff would come
by, I'd be working in the

shop early in the morning
and she'd bring on some

food and I got breakfast
and she'd bring me food

the next morning as well.

I mean, and then when
I'm not working on

playing, all I wanted
to do was play, right.

Then I'm into play mode.

And I, and I don't,
have to have a

hard time getting
back into the work.

The actual act of,
uh, fly fishing for

me, isn't so much a
meditative process

because my hands are
always doing something.

If you could see my
feet right now, they're

bouncing a mile a minute,
but being in the river,

being in a boat, being
out in the environment,

I find that brings a
level of presentness

that is absent in my,
in my everyday life.

So it's not necessarily
the activity, but is

my surroundings that I
find will bring in that

level of present ness.

And you say listening to
the wind, it could be as

simple as looking at a
color and concentrating

on that color or the
waves or a smell or in

that is one thing that
I found I've had to work

really hard on is live
in that present moment.

That's a long-winded
way of getting at it.

And there's more,
I got so much more

to say on this.

No, I think it's great.

Hang on.

So for your listener
and your viewer, I

have a three-and-a-half
year old under my feet.

So if you see me like
that, um, having cables

pulling and me shifting,
and me trying to phrase

a question intelligently,
unsuccessfully,

that is why, so
we'll leave that in.

So people know why I
sound like a moron.

Um, so now that we've
gotten that out of the

way, so people know
what's happening because

they're like, why is
she having spasms?

Um, do you, and, and
I'm going to just

come around here.

So my sister was
diagnosed, was

diagnosed with it.

She did not have,
she didn't have it.

Sure.

And quite a few
of my friends were

diagnosed with it.

They didn't have it.

And I thought it was
very strange that when

I would take them out
fishing and more recently

hunting that suddenly
this ADHD was just gone.

It didn't, it wasn't
there, because

they were outside.

And I am always been
vocal that I believe

that the way that we're
supposed to, supposed

to live, you know,
with these nine to five

jobs, driving an hour
there and an hour back,

fluorescent lighting,
white walls, basically

in an insane asylum, for
the majority of our day

is completely unnatural.

I've always looked
at people who have

ADHD, who, because who
normalize and level out,

out in the wilderness
to just be more in touch

with who they are as
primitive beings and

who they are as humans.

Do you find that the
ADHD and I don't mean

when you're sitting
there staking out a

deer and you getting all
these business ideas.

I mean, that's
just part of being

a business owner.

Right.

But did you ever find
growing up that your

ADHD and my quotations
are not discrediting

it medically.

No no.

I'm just talking.

No I.

About you specifically.

Yeah.

Did it disappear when
you were outside.

Yes.

And to a, and I will,
I will preface that.

So when, when you do
the quotation marks

on ADHD, I'm on the
same page as you, I'm

not entirely certain.

I think there's an
entire industry that's

rotated around mental
health in children that

is predicated on trying
to give pills or therapy

to individuals who
could probably thrive in

different environments.

The whole school
system that we

have is antiquated.

Why are we separating
people based on their age

as if that will, you're
five years old, this is

what you have to learn.

You're 12 years old
here, here's, here's

what you need to know.

I mean, my son's 12 and
he flies airplanes, not

just the remote control
ones, but real airplanes.

He hasn't
landed them yet.

He does ground school
at the local uh,

uh flight center.

And that's his passion.

That's what he's
interested in.

What, what says,
and he's, he won't

miss a, a, a date
of school, loves it.

He's there on time,
gets dressed up for it

because if the pilots
have to look presentable.

I think the majority
of people who are

being diagnosed as,
um, whatever abnormal

personality or learning,
learning traits that

they might have, are
because our current

system isn't set up to
easily deal with all the

different types of people
and how they learn.

That, that's.

How can it be
abnormal, when society

is so abnormal.

Well, and that's it.

It's not necessarily, I
think the school system

is largely, uh, geared
for many years uh,

there's been a switch to
having a geared towards

uh female learning.

So a lot of men in the
school system will have

a difficult time fitting
in within the same way

that female learning
is, is conducted.

There are differences
in gender and how

people approach things.

There are differences
in cultures of how

people will learn.

I am not entirely
convinced that ADHD

in and of itself is
something that, um,

I'll, I'll get myself
in trouble with the

ADHD world out there.

Uh, I don't know.

I I'm like you, a lot of
people who are diagnosed

with it, who just don't
have it, but you were,

you were asking about
going out in the outside.

Uhm trying to keep that.

There's a solution by the
way, just to cut you off.

And I apologize,
but the solution is

always so simple.

Time to book a
podcast, get one of

these psychiatrists
on the show.

I'd recommend my
sister-in-law, but

she hasn't spent a day
of her life outside.

So she is a moot point,
but, but, uh, that

would be an excellent,
I would love to

listen to you discuss
that with somebody.

I think that would be
an interesting one to

do and in fact I know
professionals in the

industry, and I think
I'll have some contrary

ideas and opinions.

Growing up I was raised
and told I'm a square peg

and all these teachers
are trying to hammer me

into a round hole, right?

Oh, I was raised in a
very antiestablishment

us against them
sort of mentality.

Um, I don't think that's
doing anybody any favors.

If somebody has ADHD
or whatever it might

be, telling them that
everybody else is wrong

and they're right might
be a comforting platitude

for a youngster.

But providing that
youngster with the tools

and skillset to be able
to operate within this

world of round holes
is far more beneficial.

So saying, well you're
just a hyperactive kid.

You got ADHD or you got
dyslexia, or you have

whatever it might be.

Here's some pills,
you're different.

Here you go over
there, we'll treat

you differently.

I think people would
be far better served

if they looked at these
individuals and found

what it was that truly
motivated or drove them.

Cause you look at these
kids like, oh man, that

kid is super lazy, but
they can sure spend all

day in front of the TV
playing video games.

It's not that they're
necessarily lazy,

it's just that you're
not engaging them.

You're not providing
them an environment

that speaks to what
their attention needs.

So find a way to be able
to speak to the kids and

to people who have ADHD
or whatever it might be.

And I think you're
going to find that the

whole, um, ADHD, ADHD
thing greatly reduces in

spectrum of who actually
has it and who doesn't.

Yeah.

Well, I think that you
should take that on.

Spearhead that one.

I've thought about
it before on my show,

but, um, it just never
got around to it.

And I also don't feel,
as I'm being pushed away

from my interference.

Sorry.

Um, I also don't feel
like I could speak

on it to the same
with, at the same

depth that you can so.

Do you feel like
you've got ADHD?

No, I never did feel
that way because I

mean, I could never
stay focused at school.

I fell asleep in class,
but I just knew it

was because they were
boring me to tears.

I was not being
challenged and, and

I worked around it.

I mean, I, when, when I
was in the 10th grade, I

said, mom, they're not,
it's not working for me.

I want to go into an
advanced, advanced

placement course.

And so I did.

And so instead of going
to school in Surrey, high

school, I went to Clayton
Heights the first year

that it opened because
they had an advanced

placement course.

And, um, and look that
worked a little bit,

I was a little bit
more challenged, but I

realized very quickly
because I was working

throughout both jobs.

That just what I was
interested in, which was

investing, like I said, I
started investing at 16.

I was interested in
things that they just

weren't teaching.

And so I thought that
college was going to

be the, the answer, you
know, then I can pick and

choose things that will
challenge me, but all it,

it worked the opposite.

It made me realize,
okay, so I'm going to

school though, to get,
cause I'm a long-term

player, this job.

And then what is this
job, what is this

job gonna do for me?

All, it's going to stick
me right back in the

same bloody nine to five
that I've been trying

to escape my whole life.

So for me, that was
when it all kind of

full circled back
to, you know, okay.

So I need to live,
I clearly need to

be outside because
it's the only thing

that challenges me
and keeps me engaged.

Say that in business,
those are my two things.

What do you know?

They work well together.

You do the challenging
outdoor stuff in the

day and you can do the
challenging business

stuff at night.

And so the two went hand
in hand, I dropped out of

college and here we are.

Do you find that funny
that two people who

had difficulties in the
traditional school system

have gone on and operate
training companies?

Oh, I have never
thought about that.

I think, cause I'm still
so new to this, right?

This is only my second
year at this game.

Uh, and if you remember,
when I started Anchored

Outdoors, I didn't
know where I was going.

I just thought I was
gonna, I mean, the

show was a storytelling
platform and I thought

we were going to
continue storytelling,

but then I listened to
my audience and they

wanted more instruction.

So it's, it's,
it's, it's evolved

naturally that way.

I don't know, ask me
again in five years.

I know that, like
I said, I've never

felt so fulfilled.

So I mean, I really feel
like I'm giving back.

I genuinely
feel like that.

You're an incredibly
good instructor.

I watched.

Oh thank you.

You teach.

You've got stuff online.

You've the way that you
communicate to people.

Have you had any training
in that respect or is

it just what you feel
comes natural to you?

Yeah.

Now it just
comes natural.

I really, I really enjoy
teaching fly fishing.

Yeah.

Well, you're
really good at it.

Awe thanks.

And you're able to get
complex, complex ideas

across in a very simple
fashion and yeah, no,

you're a I in a good
hearted way as well.

You did you get into
teaching because it

was your, a way to kind
of buck the system or

do you think it just
happened unintentionally?

Well, when I was 12
years old, I got into

the army cadet movement
and I, through that

learned man management
and method of instruction

from the department and
the national defense's

standpoint anyways.

And I found, I thrived.

I was actually pretty
good at it and it was a

lot of fun and I enjoyed
getting up there and

teaching people, I was
never the type of person

who wanted to be at
the front of the class.

Yet I was able to,
I, I was able to do

it in a way that,
uh, was helping other

people learn skills.

And so I had to learn
how to be the person

who's up in the front
of the class and not

just be the gray man.

And consequently, I
started doing some

training at the Justice
Institute of British

Columbia as a teenager.

And uh, enhancing what
I knew and I just found

some natural things that
I could do, while I was

still going to school
and do some training

programs on, on weekends.

That was never
supposed to be what

the business model was.

It was just something
I did that I enjoy.

The business model
was supposed to be,

uh, more machining and
woodworking and, uh,

basically doing it being
a self-taught millwright

and the gunsmithing
all around that.

Cause I, I really
enjoy creating things.

I realized after the
first year or two,

that if, unless you've,
unless you're a ticketed

millwright and you want
to be able to do this

as a business, uh, most
people don't want to pay

a kid top dollar to work
or build them stuff.

Most people will trade
you three-year-old

freezer burnt venison or.

Excuse me.

Bear meat.

Different bits of
parts and pieces.

Oh, totally right.

I got some great
bear meat for ya.

Story of my life.

Don't get me wrong,
I love bear meat.

And uh, so I, it, that,
and the fact that every

job that came in was
different and in order to

be able to, uh, well, oh,
well that is interesting.

It doesn't have a
replicatable, uh,

business model for
long-term success.

You're basically,
your your, the person

working behind the
counter at your local

corner store, you're
running a business.

It's the same thing.

It's a model that's
in place that I didn't

find very fulfilling
in a creative process.

So that's, that's
why I took it to

the training side.

Cause I just, I saw
so much that I could

do to help others
meet their needs.

And I thought I've
always felt it was a

fulfilling thing for me.

And I could see the,
um, the growth industry.

Yep, absolutely.

I love it.

What other questions
have you got?

Okay.

Here's one, what's
a question that

people should ask
you, but haven't yet?

That sounds like
a TikTok skit.

I know.

That's actually a
really good question.

I don't know.

There's a few,
I don't know.

Because there's going to
be experiences in your

life that will bring
value to other people

that they can learn from,
that either people have

shied away from asking
you, or it's off-brand

to, to whatever the,
uh, the platform that

you're currently on.

Um, I think, and this
isn't something I want

to go into now, but I
think a question that

would S that people
don't ask me, but they

should, is probably
politically, which side

of the fence I sit on.

I think a lot of
people assume to know

my thoughts on things
and they have no idea.

Um.

You're libertarian.

Already know it.

You'd be surprised.

Uh, I'm definitely, I
think I'm a rational

human being and I see
both sides, but yeah,

I think that would
surprise a lot of people.

What I'm afraid of um,
I think would probably

surprise some people.

That's a pretty shallow
one, I mean, I'm

afraid of the dark.

It's pretty simple one,
but something that I

think what surprise a lot
of people is my opinion

on masculinity and men.

Okay.

Because recently with,
you know, in light of

all the me too stuff.

And like you'd mentioned
earlier, just bringing

it back to what you said
about female based, I

think you said education.

Right.

Um I think that people
would be surprised to

hear my thoughts and
opinions on men today.

Given I have such an
interesting history

of men with my career.

You know, I hear
that all the time.

What's it like to
be a woman in a male

dominated industry.

And I have got stories
for days, stories for

days about horrible
things about men

in the industry.

Right.

But that doesn't
make me look at men

differently today.

Um, like I think, I
mean, it does for sure.

I look at the industry.

I'm very jaded when I
look at the industry and

certain professionals,
but I think that a lot

of people assume I'm on
board with this whole

woman push because I am
admittedly a feminist,

back in the day, what
feminist used to be,

which was just like
equality for both sides.

Sure.

Before we started tickets
to this radical extreme,

but I think people
would be surprised to

know my take on toxic
masculinity, which is

interesting because
you may be somebody who

is deemed as, I mean,
do you open the door

for women these days?

Yes.

You know, that's frowned
upon, right, like.

I do.

In some circles
that's really frowned.

Is that bad?

Upon.

Yeah yeah.

Um, um.

I, I am, I am so
out of touch with,

with all that stuff.

I, I might be a bit of
a luddite on it, but

I, I I've had younger
generations look at me

and, uh, I know like I'm
a, like, I'm a dinosaur.

Those in their
twenties and thirties.

I'm not that much
older, but they look

at me like, I'm just
like, not in a bad way.

Like I've had people
admire me cause, you're

were so manly, and I'm
like, compared to what?

Right.

Well nowadays, and I
think, so I think that's

something that, and it
will all circle back

to politically, but
that's just one element.

That's probably
the safest, most

relatable element,
just because, like I

said, fly fishing as a
woman in fly fishing.

I think that is one
conversation that

would surprise people
is that I don't,

I'm not against men.

I love men.

I'm married to
an alpha male.

I'm probably an
alpha female.

Our marriage is
very interesting.

Um, but.

Yes.

I am definitely not, even
though I'm for equality.

I think that it's been
taken too far recently,

so that is always a
topic over a whiskey

or a glass of wine
that is surprising

to very close friends
of mine when we start

to go down that road.

Yeah.

I, I think that there's
a lot of people that

form their opinions
on whatever might be

going on at the current
time based on what

the popular wave is.

And they're afraid to
buck that trend and

they lack the moral
fortitude and integrity

to be able to stand up
and say, you know what?

This is how I
feel and why.

Or like, I'm okay if
somebody holds the

door open for me in
the same breath, I, I'm

not going to be upset.

If a woman holds the door
open for me, that's fine.

I probably end up
grabbing it and say,

after you, not a
problem, cause that's

how I was raised.

And in fact, I
did that today.

I opened, I scooted
up in front, I had a

meeting with a, uh,
with the person that

we do business with
and I scooted up in

front and opened the
door to the restaurant

for her, not even
thinking twice about it.

And now that you bring.

That's, that's toxic
masculinity right

there at its finest.

Is that what they sayin?

I think I
haven't listened.

I admittedly listen
to an unhealthy amount

of Jordan Peterson.

Which I don't know if
there's such a thing.

For certain people
though, for certain

people, they've
listened to one eight

minute segment on
YouTube and they know

enough about him and
they've automatically

pigeonholed me.

They've just put me
in a box that I am,

you know, of one
mindset or the other.

I don't agree with
everything he says, but,

um, but yeah, I mean, in
some people's viewpoints

back to holding a door
open, that would be

something that would
be highly offensive.

And this is all very new.

So I think I, and
again, I don't open

this crazy can of like
enormous earthworms

here, but politically
all of it right now,

the whole disaster of
cancel culture, the

trans movement, which
again, I'm not against

any of these things.

I just believe in, like,
if you call me a birthing

parent, I'm going to
punch you in the face.

And I'm serious.

That is really, really
offensive to me right?

Like I just.

You heard of this.

So you're gonna have
to tell me, I'm sorry.

You're going to have
to fill me in, what's

a birthing parent?

Oh, oh oh, a
mother, mother.

And listen, this
is, these are real

conversations.

I had it out with a 25
year old, the other day,

a very well enjoyable
two hour long debate

about this, but it is
offensive now to call a

mother, a mother, because
it could be exclusive to

people who aren't women.

What is a woman?

The words, woman,
woman is now offensive.

So if you, if you're
now having a baby,

you are called up
birthing parent.

Birthing unit.

Parent.

You are a birthing unit.

A birthing person
or birthing parents.

That's right.

So, so I think, I think
just, you know, for

entertainment sake,
I think that would be

something that would
surprise a lot of people

is my, um, which is
my political stance, I

think would be probably
quite surprising

to a lot of people.

Given, given the
feedback, people send me

articles and people send
me posts on social media

and they're like, you'll
really like this, and

I'm going, why on earth?

Do you think because I
was bullied by men that

I'm going to like that.

Or do you think, because
I look at Patagonia

that I'm this crazy
liberal, like you need

to take a step back and,
and do you think that

I automatically would
vote for Biden because

you think, you know,
my stance on certain

conservation issues?

I, I, so I think
politically I would

surprise a lot of people
with the new movement and

this new, um, world of
woke-ism, which again,

I agree with some of it
and strongly disagree

with other parts of it.

So let's just say, um, I
listened to Ben Shapiro a

lot, even though we don't
agree with everything,

you know, I, I.

That guys sharp
as a whip.

He's great.

Years ago.

But a lot of people
right now will tusk,

stop listening to me.

They, if they don't
dislike me already,

they'll dislike me after
this because they will

assume that I have to
be on one side of the

one side or the other.

So I think that that's,
um, that's just always

interesting to me that
we, as people, whether it

be social media tidbits,
or whether it be just

putting someone in a box
politically or at work

within the outdoors.

I get very frustrated
with the fact that we

seem to have discredited
the amount of depth

that human beings
can actually have.

Yeah, I agree.

And just a quick segue,
the Ben Shapiro one,

years ago, uh, I guess
he came over to UBC and

he was giving a lecture
and I was contacted

by somebody, they
reached out and they

said, you want to be a
sponsor at this event,

we got Ben Shapiro.

It's going to be awesome.

And I said, who?

Like, I don't know
who this guy is right.

And, and, uh, they
said, oh, it'll be

totally on brand.

Because like, right-wing
like firearms owners

and these kind of
people they're going

to love, love him.

Like, this is what you
want to be involved with.

I'm like, yeah,
no, thanks.

Like this guy seems
like too hot to touch.

I've quickly did
a quick YouTube.

And, and I, I didn't
know much about him.

Other than that, people
were like rioting

and, and trying to
drive him out to

different audiences.

In hindsight, it would
have been awesome to

sponsor that event and
get to meet the guy

because, you know, he's
extremely sharp, albeit

sometimes controversial,
oftentimes controversial.

Uh, and he takes a
different approach than

Peterson, for example,
uh, where Peterson, I

don't want to ascribe
a percentage, but if I

was asked to, I would
say almost 90% of

what Peterson comes up
with are questions or

observations, they're
not, you have to do this.

There are some things
that you'll get hard

and fast on, but for
the most part, he thinks

really hard and really
deeply about things.

And ask certain things
like why is it that A,

B and C, and it's very
easy to debate or it's,

he's a very good debater.

It's easier to debate a
position when you're not

taking that firm stance
on certain things when

you're actually asking
questions and putting

the other person on that,
that, and so I think the

majority of what Peterson
comes up with actually

isn't controversial.

It's just.

Thought provoking.

People.

Right.

And so I find people are
so intertwined with their

political ideologies
nowadays, more so than

ever, in such a way.

And this is funny
because it's something

I talked about a couple
of days ago with Sonny,

the ex British special
forces commando, just

so closely intertwined.

I am liberal or I am
conservative, or I am

whatever it might be.

And if somebody asks
some questions about

it or, uh, shines
light on other possible

alternatives, it's.

They're shunned.

It seems to fundamentally
offend them at their

core because they
said, that's me.

How can, how can you
look at me and ask

those sort of questions,
whether that be gender

identity, whether that be
like you're saying, um,

uh, toxic masculinity.

I mean, this is what
everyone's saying.

This is what
you have to do.

Yeah.

It's, it's human nature.

I think.

At its very core,
its human nature

wanting to belong.

And I remember being
raised, I mean my, my

father would always
point out someone who's

got a spiked hair cut
or dyed hair or someone

wearing an earring.

It's like, look
at this person and

trying to be cool.

Just trying to be
original, just like

everybody else.

Right.

Well, interesting
observation from, from

the beat cops detect or
beat cops perspective.

Um, but it's the
same thing now.

People want to belong.

They want to know they're
lacking an identity of

their own and they're
trying very hard to hold

on to whatever they feel
is a popular identity.

And quite often that
popular identity now

is looking at how
unpopular I am, look

at how different I am.

Um.

Yeah, good point.

Yeah.

Well, um, I think,
uh, I think we're far

more complex as humans
than just what we do

for work or just what
we do for our hobbies.

Uh, April, I am so
excited about being able

to showcase your courses
through Silvercore.

I can't wait for others
to be able to take this

and provide feedback and,
and be able to experience

what I've been able to
experience through them.

Thank you very much
for being on the

podcast here again.

And I look forward to
when we are able to get

back together in person.

Me too.

Thank you for
letting me ramble.

Thank you for everyone
listening, dealing with

me, being pushed around
and cut off by a three

and a half year old.

I really appreciate
your patience with

me and giving me
the chance to talk.

You know, it's so nice
to be able to have,

uh, to really actually
be able to have a

two-way conversation.

So thank you.

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