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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a new podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript
Andy Miller III
Welcome to the more to the story podcast. I'm so glad you have come along. This is going to be a great episode. The people who are my audience. You're the type of people who will love the recent book that's come out in a recent conference that we had at Wesley Biblical Seminary on Holiness. And we're thinking about this emphasis within the Wesleyan tradition. But thinking about it, not merely. As a tribal sort of doctrine, but instead something's a part of the normative Christian experience. And so this week we featured this new book, and I'm holding up for those who are watching on YouTube. And in case you're not watching on YouTube, I just want to make sure those on YouTube that you like. This that you subscribe to. What's going on here? And in case you're somebody who just checks this out on audio, check it on YouTube sometime and vice versa. But since I'm holding this up on YouTube, for those who are seeing the video, a new book called Holiness of Biblical, Historical and Systematic Theology published by I VP Academic has come out. It is by Doctor Matt Ayers, Doctor Chris Bounds and Dr. Caleb Freedom, and they each come at this book from their own theological discipline. So Matt Ayres, the Old Testament scholar, Caleb Freedom and New Testament. Dollar and Chris Bounds comes at this from the perspective of being a historian and a systematic theologian. So it is a practical book, a helpful book, the type of book that many people have been looking for for years, something that you could use to explain, to lay people who are interested in growing their faith and having a fuller explanation. A lot of times you hit one of those disciplines, but we have all of that covered in this book and it will be a great textbook for years to come for people who are wanting to understand this important tradition within the Universal Church. So I'm excited about that. And so what's going to happen on today's podcast is I hosted a panel discussion. Here today, on October 25th, and I thought that that might be something that be helpful to share with you as we hear from all three authors. And then after that I'm going to post Chris Bound's presentation from this morning, October 25th as well where he presents something some of you may have heard from him in the past, but it was really helpful to. Hear him present on it. In preach present on this and academic presentation called reclaiming theology of holiness, the life experience, and Neo holiness MIDI. Way and I think he laid some key historical facts down that outline a way forward to think about how we can articulate this doctrine in a clear, concise way that is consistent with not just like the Scripture and tradition, but also with the way that people can experience it. So I I can't think of anything better to share. Than that. So it's a little longer podcast today. The first piece is about 25 minutes and then that will transition into Chris Bound's presentation. This podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. And we have. A host of programs from bachelors, Masters, and doctoral degrees, we'd love for you to check us out. There are other initiatives too. There's a lot of great information at wbs.edu. Also, this podcast is brought to you by WPO development. They're a group that comes alongside churches, schools, academic institutions, and helps them think about their future. And how they can get there so they've LED more than 250 successful capital? Pains they've I've worked with them in the past and really thankful for the work that they do. They really have a way of establishing a plan and then they have the experience to help people know how to achieve their goals so that that might just be a mission planning study where you're just trying to get things set of what's going on with your organization and where you're going. A strategic plan. And then of course. Fundraising plans as well. So those of you who are in the Global Methodist Church as that group is emerging now, as, as churches are trying to figure out where they go and how they're gonna operate, I highly recommend you think about checking out WPO development. So and they they have a link posted in my show notes. Also, a few things coming from andymillerthethird.com, that's Andy Miller i.com sign up for my e-mail list and I'll send you 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching. This is a really helpful resource that people use to study scripture in a deeper way and at the same time it's something that helps you think creatively. Now it's not just like a it. Doesn't mean you just automatically snap your fingers and you have this it. Means it kind of. Gives you some tools for how to study in a deeper way yourself, and it has a 45 minute teaching. It comes from me. Then I want to encourage folks to think too about what you're going to be doing in your own small group studies and those. Of things and I have these two resources are available there. One is contender 6 week session that walks you through the book of Jude and then I have another one on the afterlife called Heaven and other destinations of Biblical journey beyond this world there are five sessions there and it also includes a study guide. There's an interactive. Like discussion board that I participate in and I've it's been a delight to see people in churches, small group. Using this resource all around the world, so you can find out more about those courses at andymillerthethird.com. Thank you so much for being a part of this podcast. If you could leave a review on Apple iTunes. If you're somebody who listens on a regular basis, or even leave a comment or or question you have on YouTube, I'd love to get to those. It means a lot to me. That so many people are following this podcast and so been a blessing to provide this for you each week. Alright, so here's the the first thing is the panel discussion with my friends Matt Ayers, Caleb Freedman and Chris Bounds that I lead that discussion. And then Chris bounds. Presentation on holiness. This kind of NEO. What I want to make sure the Neo Holiness middle way. I think you'll enjoy it. God bless you all. Well, this is an important moment for us to have an opportunity here from the three authors of this new book, Holiness, A biblical, historical, and systematic theology. We have been looking for a book like this. I have been looking for a. Book like this for years. We needed something like this now. One of the things that comes is because there have been traditions and there have been people. Who have thought through kind of a a biblical vision of holiness. We think of maybe John Oswalt called to be. Wholly there have been some other edited volumes. People who have reflected on John Wesley's teaching. There's been kind of like some other kind of pastoral level pieces, holiness for everyday people. People look back to even kind of the American holiday tradition with people like Samuel Logan, Brengle or Wood. But I'm so thankful. That you 3. Did the hard work and not only. Did this just happen? Now we could have had this, possibly with a a smaller press or a self published sort. Angle and it could have served the church well, but I'm delighted, too, that this book has been published by I VP Academic. This is a major evangelical publisher that's taking this title on, and you all come at it from your disciplines. So it's a real delight. Thank you all very much for this work. Now here's what I love to do is just to have each of you. Summarize the contribution that you think you're making now. There's one way that this is a bit of a we've done that kind of in the sessions as a whole as you presented like hour long sessions with response. But what is? What is it that your section is trying to say now? There there is a way. One thing I want us to it. I've heard this from each of you. That it's not your desire to kind of contribute to the the tribalism that we might have all three of you have a vast experience. Within have American holiness movement traditions, institutions as well. But we're not just writing something. You're. I wanna. I wanna join you. We're not. You haven't just written something just for the sake of serve. In the Wesley Biblical Seminary community, this is a broader, wider expression. I I think of something in service to the Church of the whole, so I'd love for you to keep that in mind as you want. So, Matt, why don't you give us a response to, like, what's the contribution from your side from the Old Testament side of what is part of this book?
Matt Ayars
So what I was trying to accomplish was to avoid just the standard and Caleb mentioned this run-of-the-mill word study of Pradesh or how we're gonna look at that. And I really wanted to take a biblical theological perspective and trace the single thread that is the meta narrative of scripture as it anticipates the atonement and the Cross and Pentecost in the old test. Ultimate and I wanted to do it in a way and and John Oswald's called to be holy. It does do that. It's very biblical, theological, meta narrative, an integrated view of all the scriptures but called to be holy is more of a I see it more of as a pastoral perspective. And I was trying to do something more from a textbook. Perspective that integrates some of the voices and perspectives and views of Old Testament studies beyond the tradition. Mm-hmm. And and acknowledging those views, being aware of those views and letting those views inform to the point of either agreement or even rebuttal the contribution. And then in addition to. That I would say that. I was trying to not only do the biblical theological perspective, but I wanted to draw out the new creation motif that is very present in the Old Testament. We just don't see many Old Testament scholars talking about the new creation motif, and I think that and with regard to the image, the image of God as. That is prepared for, as I talked about Monday night in the creation account, and I I I believe that I very much agree with NT right on this that you can't do theology with the. Accordance, I think concordance are helpful, but you're not gonna find Trinity, and that's absolutely essential and fundamental and cornerstone and all those things. And so while you're not gonna find the term, the image and the likeness all throughout the Old Testament, it is the controlling narrative because of the introduction to the Bible, which is Genesis. And so I really wanted to highlight that feature of the new creation idea. Because I feel like that's really very much present in the Old Testament text and gets ignored. So biblical theological perspective, but in particular the new creation motif, all informed by the most recent scholarship in a way that either acknowledges, affirms, or rebuts some of those.
Andy Miller III
Views awesome. So the restoration of the image. Is the kind of 1 the pictures from the Old Testament you're trying to draw out with the aim right? With the aim of that being what the New Testament talks about. And what is what the call to be?
Matt Ayars
Holy is yes, I would prefer the word the redemption of the image rather than restoration of the image. Now, theologically, I'm fine with the restoration language, but I believe to the point that Chris made of using the biblical language, I feel like that word redemption of the image. I also really wanted to to Rick Boyd's comment, highlight the missional aspect of holiness. I believe that the point of holiness is not only Union with God, but witness. Who? Who he is because that's the point of the image bearer is to bear witness to who the creator is. So Union with God, the redemption of the image, and a life that is marked by Shalom and hassid to the point of putting it on display for the sake of God's glory in the world. So the kind of the message full. Circle to the point of I think one of the criticisms I've had of our own tradition is that it too, and and. And this could be a wrong criticism. 2 Narrowly focuses on me and my salvation and my salvation experience the individual. Our salvation experience is not about us, it's about him and his glory and the redemption of the image for the sake of him being amplified in all things. And so I wanted to bring that full circle within the. Let's say within the frame that the old.
Andy Miller III
Testament gives us it's really helpful. So thanks for setting that frame for us. So well, I think one of the things I regularly hear and I heard this in Caleb's presentation last night and Chris is today and you've said it too, certainly. Leaving this idea that comes under what under what I sense throughout the book is the idea that this is the normative Christian experience. So Caleb give us a little sense too. Like you bring your discipline to this study of like, what? The contribution that you're making, like what's new and what you're saying.
Caleb Friedeman
I think one of the big things that just struck me as I was beginning to work on this topic and ramp up for this volume, I had a chance to do some teaching on the topic and. One of the things that I shared last night was really formative from which was realizing that this really isn't just about a few texts, right. That happened to have the the key phrases that we've used in our tradition and those those texts are important. And I treat them and I'm passionate about them. But it's about. A whole, as Matt said. Biblical theology, right? The whole way that the Bible fits together and this this view of the normal Christian life that we see throughout. So I think that really seeing that as being significant and trying to look at holiness with this wide array of different words and phrases and concepts that we have instead of just trying to limit it to these, these cortexes that we all know and love, right, but broadening it out and saying, hey, there's so much more. Sometimes when I've taught on this topic with churches I've I've called my my series Holiness and unexpected places.
Andy Miller III
Yeah, yeah, I like it. Yeah.
Caleb Friedeman
And in Scripture that is right, holiness and unexpected places. But they shouldn't be unexpected places. Right? Actually, I think if if the doctor entire signification is really true, it's really scriptural, then we should expect to find it communicated. But what I'm trying to do in the book, I think, is to open our eyes to different ways that can be communicated.
Andy Miller III
Yes, yes.
Caleb Friedeman
Beyond just what we're used to, one thing I didn't get to talk about last night was the book of James, which I do get to talk about in the book. And the contrast in James between the Teleos life right, the the perfect life or the complete morally complete life and double mindedness, right? And we don't. Usually think of James as being a Holiness book, right? It does tell us that good works are important, right? But we don't usually think about James being holiness book. I think it is a holiness. And I think. That we can find this this theme in lots of different kinds of language throughout another thing that I do that I haven't seen done before. Or in this way is what I did last night, starting with Luke acts as setting sort of the narrative frame within which the rest of the new. Testament is going to. Take place and I think setting. That frame from the beginning. Is really helpful because then you can see OK, well, Jesus teachings are fitting into this. The Epistles are fitting into this revelation is fitting into this. Narrative that we see here. And I say the final thing Matt alluded to this as well, but really. Engaging with the wider world of scholarship. Yeah. So not just interacting with scholars that I agree with. And like, like John Oswell, for example, I do quote and use call the Holy a good bit in this book. And that's one of the reasons I think we've we've all been impacted by John as well.
Andy Miller III
Well, if you dedicate the book to John Oswald.
Caleb Friedeman
That's why, yeah, we've. Just been so significant for the way. That we view things so.
Speaker
I do use.
Caleb Friedeman
Holding scholars that I know and love, but also interacting with scholars that I know we're going to disagree with me and going ahead and showing them, OK, I know that. I know that this that yeah, I know that you don't agree with. What I'm saying here it's. Not what you're most drawn to, but. Here's why you should. Right or or? I know that where wherever, whatever theological tradition someone is coming from that this may not be their norm. But here's why. Here's why it should be right and trying to respond to some of those questions and natural rejoinders that people are people are going to have. And I think there is a lot more opportunity for doing. A lot more of that. As I mentioned last night.
Andy Miller III
It's great. Thank you so much for that, Chris. This morning we heard from you. I just want to invite folks. If you didn't get a chance to hear, hear either of our authors presentations, you can go to our YouTube page and you can find a link to that and you can see this more in depth presentation.
Chris Bounds
Or buy the book, buy the.
Andy Miller III
Book we want you to get the book and and our our sense is that this book might be something, could be used as textbook for decades to come. We're looking forward. It certainly will at West, the biblical seminary. Chris, you take on the task of thinking through the historical and systematic connections. Here I look for you to to hit on the historical piece and you. You dabbed your toe into there just a little bit in the earlier presentation, but just tell us too like, what is it that's often missed, maybe even from within the tradition about what the historical Christian witnesses about holiness.
Chris Bounds
Let me just say this that I I mean my background actually did my doctoral dissertation on the doctrine of Christian perfection in the Ant and icing fathers, and I have a book from Brill is is is getting ready to publish my my doctoral dissertation, which has been revised and then working on sort of the doctrine of perfection and the Nicene and Post Nicene. There's, in other words, I've been driven by. By this, when I was a graduate student at at Drew University, I I I was convinced of of, of, of Christian perfection, and had read in Ogden's third volume of his systematic theology, where he saw Christian perfection as as. Historic Christian orthodoxy. And so I was interested in seeing it in the text. So the primary text, the primary sources as well, and I was blown away, especially in the early church fathers, how prominent the language. Which was and so again working with a number of different passages. But Matthew 548 Matthew 19, which talks about perfection, we're we're prominent and and particularly the understanding when Jesus says be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect is is really a re a re. Rephrasing of be holy, as I'm holy as speaking from his his humanity and how seriously the the fathers who who took that and so interested in trying to show that and and help ground. The the teaching on Christian perfection isn't a Wesleyan. I'm gonna use my Southern accent here isn't a Wesleyan thing. It it it's it's. A and it's not just a biblical thing, it's a Christian thing, a historical Christian thing that this has been it. And what's been interesting as well is to glean from and learn from the wisdom of of the historic Christian tradition, as they've reflected upon this. And then also what I try to do is to. Realize, believe it or not, even the traditions that you don't think would believe such a thing, actually. Have witnesses to. It so there are reformed Calvinist theologians. That believe in Christian perfection. And there are Lutheran theologians who argued for Christian perfection and even people you think would be poor witnesses to to the possibility. So someone like Augustine, Augustine has an incredibly high view of the work of sanctification in life. As well as mining the riches that are are are there and what can we in our Western tradition learn from it? And so there are certain ideas that are a part of the historic doctrine of Christian. Section that then inform my sort of systematic treatment as well as sort of trying to draw upon the resources and the wells from the historic Christian tradition and not just our Wesleyan tradition.
Andy Miller III
That's great. Yeah. This is a wonderful contribution that you make to help us see that as well. I want to just talk a little bit about SYN. We didn't spend a lot of time on this and I know that. If we had more time, you would have. And Caleb. I just wanna start with you and and and having heard of. Paper that you've written already on 1st John 518 so I just wanna wanna go there and then I'd be curious for the others. Just respond thinking about the nature of sin and believers, quote John Wesley Sermon on that, so. Caleb first John. 518 states no one is born of God's sins, and then you write on page 167 what John is saying is this is a general rule. God's children do not commit willful sin. Of course it is possible for them to sin so.
Speaker
How do you?
Andy Miller III
Reconcile that and this idea. With John's assertion in 39HE cannot.
Caleb Friedeman
Yeah. So the the key text, I think and the one that I've focused on the most both in the book and some other. Work that I've done. Beyond the book is actually 39 itself, OK, and there's if you look at different translations of this verse, you'll actually notice significant differences between them. It's because everybody's really grappling with the difficulty of the text. So you. I have the ESV here. In three, nine, no one born of God makes a practice of sinning for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God, makes a practice of sinning, is actually a bit interpretive there it's it's. A little bit. More literally, would just be. The one the one who's born of God does not sin. And that's why we're all trying to grapple with it. What's going on there? I actually, this is maybe one of the more, more fresh exegetical our arguments I make in the book is that that's actually best interpreted as a gnomic statement. So some interpreter. Yeah.
Andy Miller III
Which nomic is it a grammatical tool?
Caleb Friedeman
It's it's a technical Greek. Term for describing A proverb like statement of a something that is generally true. As opposed to, for example, doing what the SV does, which is to try to say, well, actually it's just talking about not sending a lot, right. I think I think the Greek is stronger and I think that there's a way to preserve that without. At the same. Time looking at someone who does sin and saying, well, you're not. A Christian or you haven't experienced an? Birth and so. So I spent some time arguing for that versus other possibilities. Now, can you restate the specific question?
Andy Miller III
Yeah. Well, just. Reconciling this idea with that verse, that, and no one who's born of.
Caleb Friedeman
God sins. Yeah, so I think. If we're looking to yeah, to 518.
Andy Miller III
You got it. All right.
Caleb Friedeman
We know that everyone again DSV who has been born of God does not keep on sending, but he who is born of God protects him in the. One does not touch him. I I think my answer to the question would be I take the whole statement in three, nine as being nomic. So he doesn't keep on saying because he has been born of God. This is also a general, a general statement right now. General statements do not always obtain in every single instance, right? So there can be exceptions to a rule and that's fine. And that's actually exactly what we would expect of an omic statement when. You read the book of. Verbs. You don't expect a proverb to actually come true in every single instance, right? I remember an undergraduate professor of mine saying repeatedly in a class on wisdom literature the proverbs are not promises. Hmm. They're they're general general truths, but they're going to be exceptions to the rule at the same time, I think. I think what this view would also so say, though, is that we. Shouldn't make the exception the rule, right? Right? And I think that's that's what sometimes we've done outside the Western tradition or what has been done outside the Western tradition also, what the longer ways might push us toward? And so this really pushes us to a high view of what the normative Christian life should be. And again, one of the thing that strikes me as I look at this passage. And as I look at many other passages that we treat in the book is that these are really just about what the Christian life is. That's right. The way the Christian life is meant to be lived. It's not talking about some sort of elite version of Christianity.
Andy Miller III
Yeah. So great, that's helpful, Chris, let me follow up with you with that. And one thing, So what can Christians who are sinking sanctifying grace in this life, who are pursuing the this action of God's work in our lives? Can they expect with regards to sin?
Chris Bounds
Yeah, I actually I. I spent quite a bit of time. This is. I was trying to think his chapter two. Yeah, and my systematic treatment. I talked about the different theological categories of of of sin. So trying to think comprehensively and coherently in regard to to sin. So I talked about sin as a condition, sin as an act and sin as infirmity. And then different types of sin. Those again trying to capture. Comprehensively the the the problem, the issues of of sin, and so there's a sense in which, and again, this is always when we think about Christian perfection, entire sanctification, realizing that that we have to qualify that in a certain sense, biblically qualify it, and so entire sanctification is not to be sanctified. From absolutely every type of sin that there is, and Christian perfection is not necessarily being set. So I'm talking about sense of infirmity that we talk about, that we will continue to have issues of sensitive infirmity. But. But what we expect in the work of of sanctification by way of new birth and by way of entire sanctification, the breaking of the power of sin, and this has to do with. Intentional sin, habitual sin, addictions, sense of surprise in our life, and again acts of sin or sins that we know to be sin. And we know it to be sin. And some of these are intentional. Some of these are less. Intentional, you know in regard but breaking of the power sent acts of sin, but then the sin is a condition is again original sin. The spent and propensity that we have towards rebellion and disobedience, and so a part of what we expect in the normative Christian life is to be set free from this condition of sin and from the power of sin. And then. Part of even the progressive sanctification after this is dealing with issues of sense of infirmity and. Their lives, which for Wesley has to do with the restoration of the natural and political image of God. You know, in our our in, in our lives. But I I do want to pick up on just a a quick comment that I think is important picking up on this because it's quite possible to read what we've talked about when. It's quite possible here, preaching and teaching on holiness, and leave incredibly discouraged. You can leave with condemnation if, if if we're not careful, and sometimes the holiness tradition has been guilty of leading people in in condemnation, that is there. But I want to pick up because I think theologically, when we think about the order of salvation, of the work of salvation, to make a distinction between an Ordo, which is our nice neat. Logical linear understanding of salvation and the. We, which is the way that it actually takes place in our life, the messy way that salvation takes place in our life and very rarely do. There's our actual experience of salvation match up with our nice, neat, logical, linear our theological description of of of, of salvation. And we see this in Scripture. So in Romans, the expectation, Paul. Makes out this is Romans 7. The description of Romans 714 through 25 is an unbeliever. Here's someone who's not yet been spiritually regenerated. But Paul primarily is operating order, but when we get to applying to specific situations where people are actually living out their lives, he recognizes indeed that there are people he would call Christians who are in fact living in sin, transgressing the known law of God. And and so again, the way that Caleb has talked about this is again in a winsome way in, in a way that draws but does not drive.
Andy Miller III
There we go. That's great. Well, we only have time for one more question. I'm sorry. We just, we're up up on a tight schedule, so I just love for each of you just to take 30 and I'll start here with you, Matt. Like a mini. I'm going to say 45 seconds to keep it on that side of it. What is your hope for this book? Like, what do you want it to do in the world and and for the church and for seminary students? So, I mean, you spent time doing this. I imagine you guys will, you know, work you worked for several years. You indicated that your chapter. That you know, you wrote more than three years ago, but yet there's there's a desire that this message will do something in the world. So, Matt, why don't you start us? What? What's your hope for this book?
Matt Ayars
I I need to think about it. Does anyone have a quick answer? They're. Ready to give right now.
Chris Bounds
Ohh good give or take.
Matt Ayars
OK, wow. OK. I think the first one thing that I hope for is that people in my own discipline stop missing the forest for the trees and I think. That I very much agree with John Oswalt. Not on everything, almost, but on the what's that? Yeah, thank you. Thank you.
Andy Miller III
He said. I'll quote you to him, yeah.
Matt Ayars
On the notion that this is what the Old Testament message is all about, the whole thing together, this is the refrain. Yes, there are movements. There are parts, there are overtures, there are choruses, but the message at the center of the Old Testament. Is this? An undivided heart. Amen. And that's what is preparing us for the incarnation. That the law is all about bringing sin to the surface so that we can be aware this is the problem. Now. Are you ready for the solution? Jesus. Right. So and. And even as scholars and are in disciplines, you know, we get stuck not only in on the trees, but on the bark. And the ants and the dirt. And the and like we got to zoom out, we've got to hear the whole thing or else we're going to miss it. We're going to miss. Understand it and and I think that's what the Old Testament is driving home. The revelation of sin. The law has done its job. And its job is to reveal sin and not just that we commit sins, not just that we have sinful, you know, acts sins of omission, sins of Commission, but sinful behavior, sinful attitude, sinful thoughts to the point where it drives us to our knees no matter how hard we try. We Romans 7 we can't do this. I need to die and resurrect. And Jesus comes, takes on flesh, and not only reveals God, but he reveals humans. This is the human that God intended. And we miss this. Jesus is the Superman. No, he's the man. Behold the man. This is what God intended in the garden. And it's possible for you now, in terms of the purity of your heart.
Andy Miller III
Beautiful. Beautiful. Now I'll give it a best try. If we could try to keep it to that one minute type of hope. But I would never, I would. That was a beautiful statement. I would never. Not want that to. Have existed in the world.
Speaker
So I'll just.
Caleb Friedeman
Say two things. I think within the Wesleyan world, I would love to see this book contribute just a different baseline of understanding. Sometimes we just don't have what we need accessible, and I hope that our book has made some things accessible that just haven't been accessible together in this form. Before in a way that engages with the broader Academy, so that that's what I hope for the the Wesleyan world and this will just be a tool that our churches, right, we've written it so that hopefully serious lay people, college students and even similar students could use this book. And really any pastor. As well, so I I hope that it'll become that kind of. Tool for the western. Movement to the to the broader world, though I hope that the model of holiness theology that we have argued for throughout the book, which Chris is rightly called it, a NEO holiness middle way, that this will give people outside the Wesleyan world. An option for something they might be able to sign on to, because I think it is the most theologically coherent and biblically faithful version of the doctrine to date.
Andy Miller III
Right. Chris, what's your?
Chris Bounds
Hope. Yeah. I think part of it is for me it working as a systematic theologian is to help people, to see holiness as as the lens. Through which to see all of Christian theology, all of Christian theology, and so working through the major areas of theology, God, creation, fall, redemption, consummation, and I try to do that in IN22 chapters. So there is sort of taking holiness as a lens through which to do systematic theology. I. That's what I trying to do. And so. Try to help us to think. Through holiness as a way of thinking about theology as a whole. And then to try to give a theological underpinning of how we can enter into the experience of it, and I like the fact that we're unapologetic in inviting people into the experience.
Andy Miller III
Right. And one of the great things I love at the end of the book, you talked about your own testimonies that as well and that was the biblical seminary. One thing that we do is in every class, we want people to testify to the way the Holy Spirit is sanctifying us through and through. Now we we know. Nuance that we want to be careful with how we say that the same time not to tend to some of the challenges that have existed within the. Tradition, but thank you all. Thank you for your time with us particularly we think of of Chris and Caleb coming and traveling to be with us this week, not just for your work in the book, but for but presenting it to us. So clearly here these few days let's give. Them a hand, alright. Thank you all for joining us. Thank you, students. We'll see you all.
Chris Bounds
Later, God bless you. It is a delight for me to have this opportunity to be with you. And to have had an opportunity to work with my co-authors, obviously I am the old grizzled veteran of the of of the three. It's been a joy to have a chance to work with the young scholars as we have worked together on on this book. But I would miss at the very beginning of our time together. I didn't recognize Doctor Matt Friedman. Now the reason why I want to recognize Doctor Friedman is because if it wasn't for Matt Friedman's idea and inspiration, this book would have never come about. Fault. As a matter of fact, the inspiration for this book took place in a Francis Asbury Society Board meeting and we're doing some brainstorming. And so Matt came up with the idea for this book and contacted Caleb and contacted Dr. Ayers to work on this. We can brought us together in our very first zoom meeting to discuss this book, so I do want to acknowledge the role of the Holy Spirit in Doctor Friedman's life in bringing about the vision. Of this book. Also want to begin by saying that the focus of my remarks this morning are really going to be on the systematic constructive side of the book, not on the historical side. Although let me begin by saying this in regard to the historical side in regard to Christian. Infection or entire sanctification? And that is if I believe that John Wesley. Who was the only person? And it was our Methodist tradition was only Christian tradition that taught Christian perfection or entire sanctification. I would actually view it with suspicion. I would view it with suspicion. Tom Ogden's textbook, classic Christianity actually makes. Not a sustained argument, but he makes the argument that Christian perfection is historic. Christian Orthodoxy, then, in other words, this is what historic Christianity has has taught. So not only is it grounded in rooted, as we've seen so beautifully and eloquently through Doctor Ayers in doctor Freedom. And not only is it grounded in the teaching of Scripture. But it is grounded and rooted in the historic witness of of the church and the earliest witness of of Christianity throughout church history. And so when Wesley begins to preach and teach on Christian perfection or entire St. Education. He is simply picking up a mantle that it was grounded not only in scripture, but grounded in the historic Christian reflection of the church. And if you read carefully historical theologians as they talk about Christian perfection or entire sanctification. You will see that that, by and large there is a common understanding there. There are some nuances in regard to differences that exist. Some have a slightly higher view of what Christian perfection is. Have a slightly lower view of what it is. But I will tell you the history of Christianity is not afraid of the language of perfection and not afraid of the language of entire. And so I want to begin by saying that I won't have time to address the historic Christian witness in regard to this, but really what is before me is reclaiming A theology of holiness. The life experienced, so my real focus is going to be talking about how do we experience entire sanctification? How do we experience Christian perfection in our lives? So let me begin. You have a handout there, and I'm going to begin on the left and you will see. I've tried to walk through the flow of my. Through letters, I'm recounting my Abcs. I'm reverting back to my early childhood ABC CDEFG, but I will tell you it's been so long since I've done my ABC's. There might be a problem in my ordering of the alphabet here, so if you can catch that let me know. But I do know that the 1st letter. The alphabet is a. Yeah, you've now. I've got it. It's it's A and so I want to begin by it at least giving an overview and especially the the great consensus that exists among Wesleyans and our. Tradition as to what Christian perfection or entire sanctification is now in theology. When you talk about sanctification, you talk about it in both negative and positive ways, and so negatively in our Western tradition. But again, grounded in historic Christian. Orthodoxy, we understand entire sanctification or Christian perfection to be set free from. To be set free. And here's the positive what we're set free to, so the negative is what we're set free from. And the positive is what we're set free to as a matter of fact, it's early in the morning. Some of you may have not had enough caffeine. I'm thinking of life right here. Who would like a little more caffeine this morning if I could just see your hands just for a moment. I'm I'm taking the role here of Mr. McKee, from Croatia to theological form and you can go either way, but set free from. Set free to which you say that with me set free from set free 2 and so negatively. When we experience entire sanctification we're set free from the power. And the condition or sometimes what Wesley called the root of of sin. So you will remember. In Matthew chapter one, verse 21, when the Angel appears to to Joseph to explain to him the miracle of the incarnation, he says that you will give to the Incarnate Son of God the name Jesus because he will save his people from their sins. So negatively entire sanction is to be set free from the power and the condition of sin. Now the the the. Power of sin. What is described so so descriptively in Romans 714 through 25, the good that I want to do, I do not do that, which I do not want to do. I find myself doing, and so entire sanctification, this this spirit filled life is to be set free from. The power of sin so that the good that I know to do, I'm in power to do and the evil I know to avoid, I am empowered to avoid set free from the power, but not just set free from the power of set. But set free from the very condition of sin, the root of sin, the state of sin as a result of the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden, we all come into this life screwed up. We all come into this life with something wrong with us, and we describe it. And the way that it manifests itself in our lives, I will call this a phenomenological definition of this condition of sin. It's a. A intensity towards rebellion, disobedience, selfishness, and sin. So sin comes easily to us. It is sort of our default position in life as a result of the fall. Wesley fondly described this condition of sin. Original sin. As Pride self will. Jealousy, love of peoples. Praise, love for the fallen pleasures of this. World we come. Into this life with that sort of event. Now what costs bent for Wesley? It is the corrupted moral image of God. It is the absence of the reign in Rule of. Of the Holy Spirit. So because image the image of God in us has been corrupted, it has been privated in us as a result of the Holy Spirit, not reigning and ruling in our hearts and our lives. We don't have something, so to speak, strong enough that can. Rightly order our desires in life, and so to be from an entire sanctification is to be set free from this power, and from this nature. Sin. That's a negative. And So what are we? Set free 2. That is to love God with our entire. To be and to love neighbor as self. It is set free to live into, to, to flourish in the very purposes for which we have been created. So let me just say this. You read Wesleyan articles of religion, confession of faith among the the Wesleyan denominations. You're going to see these sort of ideas being set free from and set free to, so there is a general agreement in our lesson tradition as to what entire sanctification is. Now disagreements, though, and this is my next point. There, there really is 2 huge areas of of disagreement in our Wesleyan tradition, and that has to do with not the what, what is it? But but when is it? When is it experience? When is it realized in in Christian life and really in the history of the Western tradition there are two trajectories. And both of them have their roots in Wesley now I. I don't study Wesley like Chris, and I don't study Wesley like like Brian in here. I I would say I dabble in Wesley. I would not call myself a a Wesley scholar, but I I will. I will tell you that Wesley lived long enough to know that he could be confusing. And if he wants from my perspective, a clear indication at times of his confusion, then read his plain account of Christian perfection, which is hardly plain account. But we do see that it depending on when you read Wesley, you might get different opinions for him, and this is particularly true in regard to his teaching on Christian perfection and entire sanctification. Now Wesley is consistent as to what it is, but in regard to when it is experienced. We see some differences and and these two trajectories are going to follow these two. Can I call them Wesley? I will call one the optimistic Leslie and the optimistic Wesley is the Wesley that we see in the scripture way of salvation. It's picked up in what is called the shorter way tradition, and it comes from the scripture way of salvation. And here's what Wesley says. Why not this? Hour this moment, certainly. You may look for it now if you believe it is by faith and it goes on to say, expect it by faith. Expect it as you are and expect it now. Now do I hear an Amen that that, that that's incredibly optimistic and positive. In regard to the experience of entire sanctification. That's the optimistic Wesley and the shorter way, which is what the American Holiness tradition is going to pick up on. But there is this pessimistic Wesley and we can see the pessimism of Wesley. In his brief thoughts on perfection in fear I've ever read Wesley's plain account of Christian perfection, often as a part of the plain count. You have this addendum brief thoughts on perfection, and Wesley says in regard to entire sanctification or Christian perfection, as to the time, I believe this instant. Generally, it's the instant of death, the moment before the soul leaves the body. And so Wesley is is saying here that most people are not going to experience Christian perfection or entire sanctification until just before death. Now Wesley will go on and qualified. He says, you know, it may be experienced 20 years, 30 years before death, but generally speaking. This is. This is generally when most people are going to experience it, and so this is going to lead to what I will call and what has been generally called the longer way tradition. And so that entire sanctification in Christian perfection is something we're ever moving towards. But most of us will never really realize it. In life and these two trajectories, the longer and shorter way are represented in different denominations, and you can see it in their denominational statements. So the shorter way can be seen in those particular traditions that have their origin in the American holiness tradition, the 19th century. So you see it in denominations like the Wesleyan Church, the Church of the Nazarene, the Salvation Army, the churches of Christ in in Christian Union, in American holiness denominations. You can see this shorter way, and it's this shorter way theology that drove the whole holiness. Camp meeting movement. Of which many of us are still participating in, and again, many institutions that were established coming out of this shorter way tradition. But then there is this longer way tradition, the and we see it in the United Methodist Church, the British Methodist Church and the African Methodist Episcopal Church, by the way. You can see it in the type of questions that is asked of ordinance. So in this shorter way, tradition is more optimistic view as you are seeking ordination, you are asked the question, are you entirely sanctified? Yes or no. Yes or no, and for some of these traditions, if you say no, then your ordination process stops dead in the water. Some of these traditions require that their pastors testify to the of entire sanctification. So I mean. These traditions are this. That's the question they asked. Are you entirely, I guess, no. And the real expectation is that you are entirely sanctified well in. The longer way tradition. The question is asked in such a way that it implies that when you're being ordained, you haven't experienced entire sanctification. You haven't experienced Christian perfection, and so the question often in this way is. Do you expect? You expect to be perfected in love in this life. Obviously not now, but maybe at some point before you die, you you do expect to realize this so and we agree on what entire sanctification is. But in regard to when we experience it, there are differences that divide us as Wesleyans. Here is a a second area that divides. That divides us and that is. Really, in the end, what we have been exploring what what Doctor Ayers and Dr. Freedom and have been exploring with us and and that is whether or not entire sanctification is the normative Christian life. Whether or not this is the life that is meant for every Christian to be living out, and one which comes from the longer. A tradition really ties entire sanctification to ultimate. Christian maturity. It is Uber maturity in Christ and so often times it's described in this way in the most literal sense, not just in the figurative but in the most literal sense. It is to have the mind of Christ to think as Christ would think it is to speak. As Christ would speak, and it is to do as Christ would speak. But it's Uber's maturity. And so from this perspective, the longer way perspective, yes, there are probably some. In the by Christ who have experienced this. But most people haven't, so the longer wait does not see entire sanctification or Christian perfection as normative. For the ordinary believer, but the shorter way does, and as a matter of fact, the shorter way is it's articulate. It makes a clear distinction between entire sanctification. And Christian maturity and it usually goes something along these lines that entire sanction is to have power and purity. It's to have purity of heart. It's to be set free from the condition of sin. It is to have power, which is to be set free from the power of sin. That's all that entire sanctification Christian perfection gives to us. But. We lack knowledge, wisdom and understand. Which is necessary for Christian maturity. How many of you realize that it's quite possible to have power and purity but lack of knowledge, wisdom and understanding in what needs to be done in regard to God's will? Yeah, yeah. And so part of what progressive sanctity? It's not all don't have chance to explore. But part of what progressive Scientification is shorter is adding knowledge and understanding. As as we continue to grow, but from the shorter way perspective, entire sanctification is really what sets you free. What sets us free to move towards maturity, one of and I'll talk about this in just a moment. Well, I'll I won't talk about well, any of those are those are two. Very different views about when it is experienced and even some of the new one. This, you know, is it Uber maturity or is it something that makes maturity possible? This separates the longer. And the shorter way. All right, now moving to the middle of the page. Tried to stop here. What has driven my life is, is, believe it or not, it's it's being a pastor. What has driven my life is being an evangelist. What has given my life is to be entrusted with the care of souls and leading and guiding them in the way of salvation. And so really, what has driven me is how do you help people? To genuinely experience this sanctifying work. And to not settle for anything less. Than the genuine experience in heart and in life. And I'll be honest with you, I am drawn to the shorter way. I'm drawn to the American Holiness tradition and the reason why I'm drawn to it is because of its optimism and expectation that this sanctified life is the normative Christian experience. So what I'm going to try to do, I'm going to try to talk about the American Holiness. Theology that develops in the 19th century in this. True, and again is in many ways. This is for Wesley Biblical seminary, the basis for both Asbury Universities, Indiana Wesleyan University. It comes out of this 19th century American holiness theology. And So what I want to do now. Is just talk. About what are some of the advantages of it? All too often, let me say this, some of us get educated. We start looking down. Of our our poor provincial. American holiness. But now you don't do that. But anybody who's who's been in Graduate School or has been in seminary. Oftentimes when we talk about the American Holiness tradition, it's done in many ways. Please hear me. People coming from it, done with some degree of disdain. Ah, I thank God. Or places like Wesley Biblical seminary. I thank God for holiness denominations that come out of this tradition, that hold to the optimism, and recognizing this isn't just for a few. This is not just for the spiritual elite, but this is. For the ordinary believer, alright. But here's some of the advantages and I've already mentioned some of them, so I won't go into great detail on them. First of all, it believes an entirely sanctified life is the normative Christian experience. That the holiest desires of our heart can be unshackled and unchanged. And that our will can be so transformed and empowered that we can have purity and power, and that being what like so that our lives truly can be defined by love. The love of God. And the love of of of. Neighbor, so it believes an entirely sanctified life is the normative Christian experience. To the longer way. Second, it makes a clear distinction between entire sanctification and Christian maturity. As the longer way focuses on Uber Christian. Purity. But third, the Holiness movements shorter way often, although not always nuances, its understanding of salvation from sins, condition, and perfect love. Maybe it is because of the type of reflection that takes place so. Salvation from sins condition. This bent of this propensity and tendency towards rebellion and and disobedience theory. Wesley's plain account of Christian perfection clearly. Enough. You will see that. Actually, Wesley believes that many people experience entire sanctification at a point in their life they. Just lose it. They're not able to sustain it in their lives and in the very best of the American holiness tradition, if we fundamentally, which the American Holiness really picks up on this idea of the spirit reigning and ruling and the heart and and directing our our desires realizes. That, in fact, there may be moments. Because there is no level of sanctification in this life, no entire sanctification or Christian perfections, that that is free from possibility of sin. And I will say that the best of the American Holiness tradition has recognized that there may be at times in places where the spirit in a moment is not reigning in ruling in our lives. And we experience what Wesley would call a sin of surprise. Now a sin of surprise is not intentional sin. It's something that sneaks up on us. And we commit it in the moment. But we know before we committed it, we know it in the moment we commit it, and we know in the moment afterwards it's sin. Please hear me. If there is a weakness at times in our American Holiness tradition is that we have simply had. Very poor understanding of sin. And so on. Sometimes in our Western holiness tradition, if it's not intentional, if it's not willful. It's not sin. Excuse me. That's not biblical. Nor is it theological, nor is it Wesleyan in regard to Wesley. Please hear me. There is sin. That is a transgression of the known law of God. That's not intentional, and it needs to be confessed and repented of. But in this in the American holiness tradition, there's a recognition. Please hear me, gently speaking, walking and the power of the spirit staying free from intentional sin. But there may be a moment that arises where the spirit is not reigning. And ruling our heart in that moment and a sin of surprise comes upon us. What do we do with we? Confess it and we go. We don't have to start all over again. And so again, there's that optimism and the very best of our American holiness. So we can be free from sin, but doesn't mean that we won't ever commit any sin. And when we do find ourselves with a sin of surprise. In our life, it's to confess it and go on, be restored and. Let me just. Pause here for a moment to to talk about this. Talk about this. Now. I I know Chris likes to talk about love as self giving self, giving love. And I I believe that and he gets that it it's a part of the historic Christian tradition. Tom's quickness is is very clear. That love is to will the good of. Of of the others. But there's also a part of our historic Christian tradition that understands love as union. That whatever you love, you desire, Union, fellowship and oneness with and that you align your will with that desire. So just to give you an example, if I love ice cream, what am I telling you? I want to be one with ice cream. You scream ice cream. We all scream for ice cream. Yeah, and but it's. Not just the desire, it means I. Align my will with that desire. So that I go out and buy Ben and Jerry's Heath bar, crunch ice cream, Heath bar crunch ice cream. I go and. Buy it and then I take it home and eat it. Desire and will bringing about Union if I say to to you that I love my wife? What am I telling you? I desire to be one with her. I desire fellowship with her and I make decisions and choices. Bring that union up. Jesus said if you love me, this is John, chapter 14. If you love me, you will obey me. I think he sees it, says it eight times in John Chapter 14. If you love me, you obey me. What is Jesus saying? If you want to walk with me, if you wanna be with me, you will align your will with my will. You align my with and and that's what brings about Union. The desire to be one with Christ and aligning our will with that desire. But what happens in a sense of surprise, is there's a break, there's a rupture. In that union. And I will take. One of the most beautiful examples for me. Again, of of the sanctified life. Is when someone experiences the scent of surprise and what they do with that sin. If you want more than anything else, union with Christ. That's what drives your life. And in a moment there is disruption. It is the worst thing. To ever experience in your relationship and what do you want, you want reconciliation? Let me say this as well. To love our neighbor. To love our neighbor means to desire reconciliation. And to work towards reconciliation. But here this is where I wanted to come back to Chris. But ultimately we give ourselves in love. We seek union, not for our benefit. But to give ourselves to the other. To serve the other. So it's not about what I get or gain. It's about what I give and serve to the other. This is beautifully portrayed in an early Christian theologian who believed in Christian perfection, and this is book 11. In his conferences. John cassian. In which he writes on. Section and John Cassian says that there are three stages to the Christian life. The first stage is that we serve God out of fear. We don't wanna go to hell. We don't wanna pay. The consequences for our sin. Amen. What's the problem? It's really about us. We love God for our own sake. We seek union with God for our own sake. But then Cassie goes on and says that we serve God. Once we pass out of fear, we serve. God for God's benefits. So the peace. That he brings the joy that he brings, that happiness that he brings. And so we love God for God's benefits. But what's the problem? Still all about us. So we still are seeking union with God. For our sake. But Cassian says what Christian perfection is. Is to come to the third stage of life. Which is to love God, for God's sake. Not about what I get or gain, and so any of you who are familiar with Saint John of the Cross, Dark night of the soul. The dark night of the soul is when God purges us of our feelings and our emotions, our warm fuzzies. He brings us to a place that we wonder may wonder, even if there is a God and where are you, God? Where is the presence of God? God takes us through that moment. Because what we're recognizing in that moment is that we really love the warm fuzzies more than we do God himself. OK, all I want to say is that we have in, in, in many ways some nuances. To our understanding of sins, condition and even perfect, perfect love at times the American I mean at times, John Wesley and the Westing tradition, although their debates and early Methodism over this set a very incredibly high bar for what entire sanctification is and what perfect love is. And so you can read them as if you are always loving God to the full extent that you are capable of loving God. But the American Holiness tradition recognizes in many ways what Thomas Aquinas in his discussion of Christian perfection, that what happens in entire sanctification is the removal of all obstacles to our heart, tending in the love of God and in the love of neighbor. And so yes, we're always loving God and always loving neighbor. You may not. Maybe because of utterly infirmities for other purposes we may not at every moment, always loving God to the full extent that we are capable of, of loving. So there are some nuances as the best of the Holiness thinkers have thought about this. I I think that they under they, they nuance salvation from sins, condition and perfect love and very helpful ways. 4th Holiness tradition makes explicit. What the longer way doesn't, and that is to recognize that entire sanctification and Christian perfection empowers for ministry. This empowerment for ministry. So if you read the American Holiness tradition, it's articles of religion, it's confessions of faith when it is describing entire sanctification is not just being set free from the power of sin, not just being set from the connection of sin. It's being empowered for ministry. And it makes this very explicit and and it should shouldn't. If you have been set free to love your neighbor as yourself. Love your neighbor that who is the stranger among us? The one who is the enemy among us, and again at the very heart of love, is the desire for Union. And working and striving to to that Union. But there's this empowerment for ministry. So I mean this is the reason why the American Holiness tradition in many ways believes that everybody who's entry should be entirely sanctified should be a spirit filled believer, because that's the only way you're going to make it in ministry. And be faithful in it. To Sir. The ungrateful. Empowerment deserve the back biting. Empowerment to serve. Who would seek to undermine and tear you down? And maybe even tear down your family. And I've just said for all those of you who are pastors, you know exactly what and nobody is in pastoral ministry hasn't, who hasn't experienced. All of those. Alright, I've gotta go on. I I was going to use an illustration here, but I I I will go on I. Empowerment for ministry and and 5th the longer way often leads to a practical problem. And that is little expectation of entire sanctification actually leads to lack of seeking it. If I don't expect to ever really be. Entirely sanctified in this life, or maybe just before death. Then there is really little expectation. To seek it now in life, and so that is a practical problem. OK, so those are what I would consider the advantages of the American Holiness is the benefit of what the American Holiness tradition has. And the shorter way tradition has brought to to this discussion. Alright, now I want to talk about the great weakness though of the American Holiness shorter way. As the Holiness tradition has taught Christians about how to experience entire science fiction, this is E1. For those of you who are following, as the Holiness tradition has taught Christians about how to experience entire sanctification, it has fallen into semi Pelagianism or what I would call soft semi augustinianism, which is this. The idea and and the American holiness tradition. And you know it, and many of you have preached it or taught it at some point along the way. If you want to experience entire sanct. Nation what are the two things you do? You entirely consecrate yourself to God and you exercise, saving faith in Christ, to believe Christ. To do this sanctifying work in your life. But here's the problem with the American. Holsters, not that those are wrong. But the American Holiness tradition, because it has been influenced either. Intentionally or unintentionally. It has been influenced by either a semi pelagian tradition or a soft standing position. I'll bit more about this in in just a minute, but the American Legion really does believe. That we have the power within ourselves. To do everything necessary to appropriate the work of entire sanctification. So we have the ability within ourselves to be able to recognize the truth of entire sanctification. We have the ability within ourselves to consecrate ourselves completely and entirely. God, that we have the ability within ourselves to completely surrender to God, and we have the ability within ourselves to be able to exercise sanctifying faith in Christ. To give you an example of this and please hear me, I have tremendous respect for Doctor Alan Brown. And very godly man. Great preacher. He's a New Testament scholar, Doctor Alan Brown of God's Bible School and and. And we see as sort of the semi pelagian or soft St. Augustinian tradition. And this represents the American holiness tradition. How do we experience entire sanctification? First Christians are to present themselves to God. And full surrender underlying Dr. Brand's assumption here. Is that we actually. Have the ability to do that. 2nd, we are by faith to ask the God of peace, to sanctify us and believe that he, he does it again. Underline is that we have this ability within ourselves to exercise sanctifying faith in Christ, and then third. To really show that we have true. Exercised faith in Christ for the work of entire sanctification. Third, we are to testify to others that by faith God has received our full surrender and has entirely sanctified us. And so how do we show that we have sanctifying faith? Well, the way that we show it is we go and begin to talk about. That we've been entirely sanctified, whether or not we've actually seen any evidence of it in our life, because take it by faith. Again underlying this. Is this idea that we have the ability within ourselves? To do everything. So from the shorter way tradition in the American holiness tradition, we have the power to decide the day or the moment that we're entirely sanctified. We have the day we're able to decide that that moment, now this. Is the Third Point the. Holiness traditions, confidence in the human ability to fulfill the requirements to be entirely sanctified has led to a lot of practical problems. It's led to a lot of practical problems. One of those things that it has led to is people claiming to be entirely sanctified, who are in fact not entirely sanctified. I will tell you as you know, this teaching on holiness has fallen on hard times. And there's a history behind it. It goes back to the 40s and 50s, has to do with the baby boomers. Many of them. They were raised in holiness congregations where people were testifying to the experience of entire sanctification and was so obvious to them and everyone around them that in fact that wasn't the case. And so many baby boomers coming out of the Holiness tradition have either rejected. Wesleyan teaching, or they have fallen into the longer way in regard to the understanding of it. So it's led people to testifying to, to to the experience. Second, it's led to increased frustration. Because people go to the altar or they have a discussion with their pastor, and their pastor tells them exactly what needs to be done. Consecrate, believe and testify, and they do exactly what their pastor has told them to do. They've checked the list. And they still haven't experienced it. And so they grow discouraged. And again, either leave the Wesleyan tradition or they fall back into the longer way. There's some other problems that are there, but for time purposes I need to to to to move on. So their advantages. But let me just say this, this is for this is what I call the Achilles heel. Of the Wesleyan holiness tradition of the 19th century American holiness tradition, so. What am I proposing here? Please hear me. I want to. Take the very best of the America. Best of the shorter way? I want to take the very best of this optimism and I do firmly believe and agree that this is the normative Christian life. But we need to. Get rid of. Our semi plebian soft semi Augustin. It has undergirded it in regard to the experience of it. So what I'm trying to do here and articulating, I'm calling this a Neo Holiness theology and again trying to take the very best of the American holiness tradition. And combine it with not a semi pelagian or a soft semi Augustine but with Wesley's semi Augustinian theology of grace. I'm gonna illustrate that in just a moment. So what I'm trying to do is to navigate between the longer way and the shorter way and I use term middle way. A middle way between the two, a NEO holiness middle way. And and please that middle way that we're trying to, I'm trying to articulate. In this book. Is to really take seriously that entire sanctification is the normative Christian life. This is the life that is meant for every believer. But then what I'm trying to do is combine it with Leslie's semi Augustinian. Understanding of grace and the necessity of grace to help us to see the truth. Of entire sanctification as the normative Christian life. Have grace to help us to truly surrender our lives to God. And to truly have sanctifying faith. Let me take just a moment and and talk about John Wesley's doctrine of prevenient grace and the Holiness traditions, the doctrine of prevenient grace. They're different, quite different. And so I would just. Say this. How many of you in here have heard Prevenient grace? I mean, even our liberal United Methodists. At least have some knowledge of of of prevenient grace in in the midst of this but. And I talk about. John Wesley's doctrine of prevenient grace. Leslie is Augustinian. And that he believes, as a result of the fall, we're dead and God dead and Sin Dead, dead, dead. And so we actually have no internal resources to offer in the work of some. How many of you realize if you're dead, you have nothing, there's no life in you, you have nothing to offer. Do I hear an Amen? Amen. If you're dead. So if we are going to be safe, and if we're going to be sanctified, then God is the one who has to. Take the initiative. And the way that he takes that initiative is that he gives prevenient grace. Amen. But let's talk about. What Wesley meant by prevenient grace at this point? Bare minimal. Bear amenable, the prevenient grace that is given to all. Is twofold. It is a restoration of our capacity to receive grace. Now, please hear me. Grace for Wesley. And I think he's absolutely right. Is not some sort of substance, something that God gives to you. But rather, Grace and Wesley describes Grace in his children's catechism as the power or the work of God. Praveen Grace is the restoration of our capacity for God to work for us and in us. So it's a restoration of our capacity for God to work for us and in us. But then second, it is a restoration of our capacity to either cooperate or resist what God is doing. And that's all it is. So please hear me, the Praveen Grace. That is given to all. Cannot determine. How God wants to work for you or in you in any given moment. All it can do is receive it and either cooperate or resist it. And so from Wesley's perspective, you can't see the truth of the gospel, much less the truth of the full gospel, unless the Holy Spirit illuminates it to you. And if you think with me for a moment, how many biblical scholars do we know that read over and love God and read the scriptures, but don't see this? Only the spirit can do it and prevent grace enables, but unless the spirit comes and illuminates, there's nothing to work with there. The same thing in regard to repentance. The only way that we can truly repent, whether that be evangelical, repentance, repentance, leading to the new birth, or the repentance of believers that leads to the experience of entire sanctification as a result of the convicting rooing and drawing power of the spirit. It is not something we are able to do. We can only truly repent when God is bringing convicting grace in our lives. The same thing in regard to faith, we tend at times the American holiness tradition tends to think that faith is something that we can humanly generate at any given moment. But it is a gift of grace, and so we can only experience saving faith and sanctified faith as the Holy Spirit comes and creates it in our hearts and lives. And as the spirit is seeking to impart it to our lives, we can either through Praveen Grace, we can either let me just see your hands. I'm. I'm going too long now. I'm almost done. We can either cooperate. Let me just see it. Ohh, come on, all of you here, we can either cooperate, embrace it or we. Can't resist it. Many of you know this, but. Let me be clear. We see this so clearly in John Wesley's Aldersgate experience. This has to do with salvation. Please and apologize. Albert outler. Randy Maddox. You have misinterpreted why you haven't listened to Wesley. Wesley always understood his Aldersgate experience to be his conversion experience. And please hear me. Leslie months before, through a conversation with Peter Bower, became convinced that salvation was by grace through faith. That he didn't have it. On May 24th, 1738. His Aldersgate experience, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I want you know, Wesley was. Being acted upon. His saving faith was not self generated. Rather, it was a gift that was given to him. I felt my heart strangely warmed, and I did believe that Christ died for me. Even me, John Wesley in the scripture way of salvation, says sanctifying. Is a gift of grace. It is not something we are capable of doing. He uses the language of divine evidence and conviction. First. It's a divine evidence and conviction that God has promised it in the scriptures. And I will tell. You it takes the Holy Spirit of God to. Help people to see the truth of it in in Scripture. So even with the great work that Matt and Doctor Ayers and Dr. Friedman have done. Well, the only way that this is going to convince anybody of the truth of scripture is the Holy Spirit using the very words that Doctor Ayers and Dr. Freedom and have written to open their eyes. Give them eyes to see. Divine evidence that God has promised in scripture, second divine evidence and conviction, something the Holy Spirit gives divine evidence and conviction that what God has promised in the scriptures, he. In fact, is able to do. You know, it's one thing to be able to believe that God, the teacher, the Scriptures teach it. It's another thing to believe that God actually doesn't. I I love St. Ferguson. A good reformed theologian, and his discussion of the reformed understanding of sanctification. He makes this this statement. It looks like in Romans Chapter 8 that Paul seems to be saying here that we can live free from sin. But we know as Christians that's not true. That is what he says. It's one thing to become convinced, intellectually that this is the teaching of Scripture. But I will tell you, if you had core models of it in your life. If you've grown up in a context that has continually doubted it in in, in your life, it takes the spirit of God. To help you to believe. Then, in fact, what God has promised Scripture, he's able to do third, Wesley says he's able to do it in. You don't know about you, but most of. My life I'm always. I believe God can do great things. Amen. Just lot or he it is. It's a lot easier for me to believe that God can do it in someone else. As opposed to believe that God can do it in me, Wesley believed that God had saved Peter bowler by grace through faith. Wesley struggle with believing that God could do. It for him. And then Wesley says last of all, and it's all all of these, it's bind evidence and conviction that God does it even now. In you. But it's a. Gift of Grace and and this is different than the Holiness traditions doctrine of prevenient grace, the Holiness traditions, doctrine of proving to grace is. Far more robust. Leslie understand Prevenient grace is that we can receive. We can be worked. Upon by God. And we can either cooperate or resist it. But if there's not more grace that is given, we can't go any further. We're completely dependent upon God's giving grace working for us and in us. The American Holiness tradition, though basically giving grace is the restoration of our capacity to see, repent and believe. So that again we can do it at any moment that. That we choose. One last word and I I I have gone too long. One last word. Please hear me. In many ways, this western holiness tradition this semi plaguing at times, the soft semi Augustinian position really has a transactional view of salvation. More like a business and legal transition transaction. So here's. What we would. Have you done this, this, this and this? Then you're sanctified. You've done this, this, this, and. This you were saved as a matter of fact, it's pastors, we. Will say OK, have you done this? Have you done? This have you done? Have you done these? Four things whether. You have the witness of the spirit, whether or not you've genuinely experienced conversion or. Entire sanctification. You have it. It's like a business and legal transaction. I will tell you Wesley's semi Augustinian theology here is deeply interpersonal. It's not transactional. It's not transactional, so even today right now. I can't determine how God wants to work for me or in me or through me. I can't. How many of you realize that today you cannot determine how God wants to work for you yet? Nevertheless, we. Believe God is at work. For you and in you all you. Can do, though today is have this posture. And not this. And so from this, let me just say this from this Western semi Augustinian, you can't determine the day or the moment. You're entirely sanctified. All you can do, and this is Wesley, is seek the Lord in the means of grace until he comes and brings it to you. And please hear me. This is our message. He'll do it sooner rather than later. He'll do it sooner rather than later in our lives, and this is this needs. So. So. So what is the Neo Holiness Council regarding the experience of time, you know, surrender fully to Jesus Christ. Make a total consecration of life to God. As much as you're able. With that, which Grace has given to you. But I will tell you this and I don't know about you. I I don't know my own mind or very our heart. And I will tell you this, we very rarely ever grasp the depths of depravity in our lives. And so I'll be honest with my own experience in regard to this is I could. Say ohh yes I. Was fully surrendered to the Lord. I'd. Given everything to God. And then I find ohh no you didn't. Here's some areas that you were hanging on, you know, in your life, so even full surrender isn't something that we we are capable of doing in our own strength and power. And sometimes surrender is a process. That God gives and in our lives as the spirit is working and moving in us, but surrender, obviously surrender, make a total consecration, believe in the divine work of entire sanctification. And if you can't believe it, that's all right. Ask God for faith to believe. You don't believe that the Scripture teaches this well? Ask God God if this is true, show me in your word. Give me eyes to see. Give me ears to hear. And then if you believe the speech in scripture, but you have trouble believing that God doesn't, maybe the poor experiences you, you you saw it and didn't receive, or because you had such poor examples in in your life. Lord, give me faith to believe that you do do this in people's hearts and lives. I I see it in other people's lives. I just have a hard time believing you can do this for me. How many of you know, oftentimes it can begin in the head. But it takes. A lot longer for it to penetrate your heart. I I will tell you it's grace that that imparts it to our minds. And it's grace that imparts it to our hearts. So that we believe it. In the depths of our. Soul and then to believe that God can do it in in a moment, so believe in the work of entire sanctification, and let me just say this, ask Christ in faith. For entire sanctification now. In your life. Please hear me. This is the normative Christian life. If God doesn't. Sanctify you in the moment that you ask. For it. Don't settle for anything less. And then continue to seek the Lord to come and sanctify you, holy, and tell he God in the means of grace. Well, this is, and I apologize. I've gone way too long. I I took. I'm. Supposed to take? 40 minutes. Sorry, but this is at least towards a a Neo holiness. Middle weight theology that it seeks to try to navigate between the longer way and the shorter way, and articulate a middle way.