Paul Boag on AI, UX Democratization, and Building a Life-First Career

Paul and Brad discuss how AI has reintroduced “Wild West” chaos to the web, which Paul finds energizing after years of predictable maturity in the industry. Drawing parallels to past disruptions like desktop publishing, CSS/web standards, and the dot-com bust, Paul argues that panic about AI replacing specialists will settle as organizations realize quality still matters. They emphasize learning through sharing, rejecting performative content marketing, and valuing humility over guru certainty. The conversation explores consulting as amplifying in-house teams’ knowledge, the need to adapt rigid UX processes, and how AI can help democratize UX by empowering non-specialists through playbooks, design systems, and easier access to research. Paul shares how he intentionally built a lifestyle business enabling RV travel, and closes on resilience, change, and optimism.

Topics:

• (00:00) - Hello Chaos
• (04:10) - Tech Cycles And Jobs
• (07:27) - Letting Go To Grow
• (11:01) - Learning By Sharing
• (25:07) - Process Myths In UX
• (35:42) - Democratizing UX With AI
• (43:47) - AI As Meeting Facilitator
• (59:19) - Kill Handoff With AI
• (01:04:40) - Is Paul Retiring?
• (01:13:46) - Business Serves Life
• (01:33:16) - What Music Does Paul Want You to Know About?

Links:
◉ Jeffrey Zeldman
◉ Ethan Marcotte
◉ Steve Krug
◉ Jakob Nielsen
◉ boagworld.com
◉ Atomic Design
◉ Starlink
◉ Perplexity
◉ Material Design
◉ Double Diamond design process
◉ Desktop publishing history
◉ Bob Seger & The Silver Bullet Band
◉ Against the Wind (Spotify)
◉ Against the Wind (YouTube)

Creators and Guests

Host

Brad Frost

Creator, web designer & developer, teacher, consultant, speaker, writer, musician, & artist. Author of Atomic Design. Enthusiasm enthusiast.

Guest

Paul Boag

Using 30+ years experience to connect UX, conversion optimization and design leadership into a single strategy that delivers genuine business results.

What is Wake Up Excited!?

Inspiring conversations with exuberant humans about how to live a creative, fulfilling, and authentic life. Hosted by enthusiasm enthusiast, Brad Frost.

We experience a brief moment of truth when we first wake up in the morning. Before the cold shower of reality, our infinite to-do lists, and macro-level woes seize our consciousness. We experience a brief moment of excitement — and this pure moment tells us something important about ourselves.

There are people out there who seem to move through life with intention, authenticity, creativity, kindness, and enthusiasm. And they do this despite the deeply inperfect world we inhabit. This podcast is an attempt to learn from these people.

Through wide-ranging conversations, Wake Up Excited explores guests' passions, interests, enthusiasms, and philosophy of life.

Brad: Hey, Paul

Paul Boag: Hey, Brad.

Sorry, that, that seemed even worse
than the first one, but keep it.

that's the natural way that we greet
each other whenever we see each

other, with that really awkward,
yeah, shouting each other's names

Brad: so let's dig into it.

What, has you waking
up excited these days?

Paul Boag: Retirement?

Does that, does that count?

No, no.

actually, I'm more excited now than
I have been for a very long time.

I'm one of those people, I
started in the web in 1994, right?

So just as it was all taking off,
and, and, and, and I loved the

chaos of it, the Wild West of it.

And then, Jeffrey Zeldman came
along, and we all had to learn CSS.

Oh, I loved that excitement, new
thing, you know, new stuff going on.

And then, then Web 2 came along
and, and then f- you know, Flash

disappeared and, and then there was
responsive design with Ethan Marcotte.

And then the web got dull.

It was so predictable.

It was so every… We all know
what we've got to do, and it's

all very sensible and grownup.

And then AI came along, and
now we've got chaos again.

And I'm somebody that
thrives off of the chaos.

So at the moment, I'm loving it because
all of the old rules no longer apply.

We've got to work out new ways of
working and new ways of doing things,

and I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff.

the way I describe it is, you know,
don't give me, don't give me a

roadmap to get me from A to B, right?

But give me surfing, where you have to
follow the waves, and you have to… And

by the way, I've never surfed a day in
my life, and I would be terrible at it.

But that idea that you can't just go
in a straight pre-planned line, but

you have to go with the flow, and,
and I love it when it's like that.

So yeah, I'm alive at the moment.

Unlike most people that seem to be
terrified, and I feel almost guilty

for being excited because so many
people are scared, which I understand.

I get that too

Brad: Yeah.

Uh, d- well, there's a lot there.

One, your, your, uh, vernacular still
has that 1994, uh, surfing the web, uh,

Paul Boag: Yeah, yeah.

I ca- Yes.

So I wake up every morning w-
going, and I log into the internet

highway using my dial-up modem.

Yeah, I'm stuck in the past
is what you're saying, Brad.

Brad: yeah.

No, no,

Paul Boag: I'm not at
all insulted by that.

Brad: I think what's very, very
fascinating, which gets to the

heart of what this show is about,
is you've been on the many waves

of, of the web for, for a long time.

And despite going through things,
finding, uh, there, there's been times of

stability, there's been times of maturity,
there's these, these weird moments, these

chaotic moments as you're describing.

And to meet that with enthusiasm
and excitement like a real

quality that, that you've learned
about yourself over the decades.

Paul Boag: and it's got easier as well
because there's, there's one degree where

you think you have to be a certain type of
person, and I am a certain type of person.

I'm a person that, that loves
a, a bit of chaos and a, you

know, a, a, a bit of, of change.

But it's also, you learn over the
decades, 'cause it's now f- over

three decades of working in the web,
you learn over that period of time

that, um, it all works out in the end.

That, that you fret and you
worry about these things.

You know, when, when I've sat down
and read Jeffrey Zeldman's book on, on

designing with web standards, it was like,
"Oh, shit, I have to relearn everything

I know about how websites are created."
And, you know, that was terrifying.

That was really worrying.

Um, I-- but if I go back even further,
the one that I remember the most, and I

think the one that is most, um, relevant
today, was when I was at university.

this was before the web.

Oh, God, I'm so old.

I studied graphic design at university,
and while I was studying, this is gonna

just make me sound even older, when I was
studying graphic design, this thing called

desktop publishing came along, right?

W- And, and suddenly everybody
was going, "Well, we don't

need graphic designers anymore.

Everybody can design their own
posters and their own flyers

and all of this kind of stuff.

We're not gonna need you anymore."
And we were all going, "Oh, no,

we're all gonna be out of a job.

It's the end of the world.

It's terrible." And sure enough, there
was a couple of years where there was--

it was really hard to find work because,
all of that work was being done by, you

know, people themselves in organizations.

And then suddenly, people began to wake
up and go, "Oh, why are all our posters

look terrible?" You know, "Why are we
using Comic Sans for everything?" You

know, and, "Oh, we-- I need a grown-up.

I need a designer to do this." And
actually, that tool that I thought

was to democratize or enable us all to
do it, actually really was a tool for

the expert to use and do more with.

And we're g- I know we're gonna
come over onto democratization.

I'm actually a believer in that.

But I think we are at the same
moment where everybody's going, "Oh,

we don't need specialists anymore.

We don't need UX teams.

We don't need developers.

We can get AI to do all of
this magic for us." Yeah, okay.

Give it, give it 10 minutes,
and you'll be all right.

You know, I, I've seen this again
with the dot-com boom and bust.

I saw it again with, you know,
all kinds of different things.

This is just the way it rolls, and I
think when you've been through that loop

enough, you begin to chill out a little
bit and know it'll work itself out.

Brad: Yeah.

think that that's, that's
really good advice, but it,

it kind of takes experiencing

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Brad: and experiencing here's this new
thing, the pendulum swings hard, and then

it ultimately kind of comes back to maybe
more of a reasonable sort of center where

it's just like, like people feel like
they need to try to take it to the extreme

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: then ultimately kind of walk
it back to, to a place and, and

there's a lot of that gets kicked
up in the process and a lot of…

I, I think you're, you're right
in pointing out the feelings,

but, uh, but at this-- 'cause,
'cause everybody is feeling that

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Brad: degree right now.

So I think that, that your, your arc is
actually really welcoming to, to hear that

many decades later it's like, "Yep, this,
this happens, and it happens again, and

it happens again, and, and we'll be okay."

Paul Boag: you know, I'm not
trivializing the position that

people find themselves in at all.

You know, my daughter at the moment
is at, um, York University studying

computer science, and she's supposed to
be getting a year's placement, right?

Not a hope.

There's nothing out there for a junior,
you know, developer at the moment.

Nobody's, nobody's taking anybody on
because, oh, we can use AI to do that.

Brad: Yeah

Paul Boag: and it, it… You
will go through painful times.

You know, I remember when the
dot-com bubble went and, and I

was made redundant and… But
that was when I set up an agency.

That was the best thing
I ever did, you know?

there are always opportunities.

Y- The, the key is to keep your
eye open for those opportunities

and to grasp them when they come.

And I think the, To grasp a new
opportunity, you need to have

empty hands, and that kind of means
letting go of what went before.

And I think the problem comes is where
you're not, you're not willing to let go

of what you've got to grasp what could be.

Sorry, that sounded really tr- trite when
I said that out loud, but you know what I

Brad: No.

No, no, no.

I, I, I think that there's, there's
something really powerful in that and

'cause it, it almost sounds like you've
gotten very skilled at that process

of letting go, of ha- of having to
something, master something, only to

kind of, not, not fully abandon it
I'm sure, but, but to, to have to the,

the fact that things are different now
and I need to, to sort of start anew.

There's a … It's almost
like it's like shedding,

Paul Boag: You could,

Brad: or something

Paul Boag: yeah, you could
tell that if you look at my,

my order of my books, right?

First book, Website Owner's Manual, right?

This is back in the kind of early
2000s where you had webmasters

that used to do everything, right?

Obviously, I had to let go of that.

Then next book was Digital Adaptation,
where we're all digitally transforming.

Do you remember when we all
did that for five minutes?

Um, and, and then that's become… I
mean, the idea of digitally transforming

now, I mean, it's ridiculous.

If your, if your, if your organization
hasn't got digital at the heart of

everything it's doing at this point, then
you're probably a greengrocer, you know,

Brad: Yeah.

Paul Boag: or something like that.

And then I did User Experience
Revolution, which, where I was writing

about establishing user-centric
cultures in the organization.

To be fair, that one kind of
is still an ongoing issue.

but then there's, you know,
after that was con- one about

conversion rate optimization.

So you're kind of moving on all
of the time, um, because the

conversation moves on, you know?

Brad: Mm-hmm.

what do you have, uh, like, 'cause I've
been reading your website for as long

as I've been doing my thing, and I,

Paul Boag: Let me… This is the point,
this is the point, everybody listening

to this, where Brad is gonna say, "I
started listening to your podcast when

I was at high school," or something like
that, just to make me feel really old.

Brad: No, I, no, I, I distinctly
remember, I have a very specific version

of your website design in my head right

Paul Boag: Did it have cows on?

Brad: I think so.

But I, I mostly remember
the, the typography of it.

It's just, like, like, the, the
lowercase kind of, like, retro

pump demi bold something or

Paul Boag: Yes

Brad: just, like, like, a cool, thick,
like, lowercase thing, and I just

remember being like, "This is awesome."

Like, like, this is… And at the time,
I was just kind of feeling around for,

like, who is in this world, like, just
trying to get my hands on, on everything.

And so yeah, so it's just, it's really
wild that, that you've been at it

for so long and, and have this, this
longevity to sharing, publishing,

Paul Boag: Hmm.

Brad: going on, uh, riding these waves,

Paul Boag: Well, that's
what it comes down to.

See, that's the key.

That last sentence you just said there,
"I figure things out via sharing." Right?

What is it?

They, they say you don't really understand
a subject unless you can teach it

or something, something like that.

Brad: yeah,

Paul Boag: Um, and for me, that
really is how it is, and I often

start teaching on a subject before
I know what I think about it.

Brad: Yep.

Paul Boag: Which, which
sounds so wrong, you know.

It sounds terrible.

and y- you do get screwed over doing that.

I remember teaching, um, about
accessibility back in, I don't know,

must have been the early noughties
or, um, something around there.

I said a load of stuff that
was complete rubbish, right?

I got it entirely wrong.

A- and that was embarrassing, but it, it's
how I learn because I got a response back.

You have to be quite
thick-skinned sometimes 'cause

the response is fairly merciless.

Um, but that's how I learnt
through that, and, and I've always

had that mentality of, of let's
share and let's learn together.

I know that the vast majority
of people don't do that.

I think there's a lot of people
that, if they do share, they're

doing it really from content
marketing point of view, you know.

Um, well, and I do it for that.

I'm not gonna claim I don't
do it for that as well.

But it is primarily a learning mechanism
for myself to help me articulate what it

is I'm thinking about, where I'm going,
and that often leads to a response and

that further refines my thinking, um, and
the direction that I'm going with stuff.

So I

Brad: Yes

Paul Boag: be the same surely.

It, uh, I imagine

Brad: I think that more people need to
hear this because I think that things

have evolved to the, to speak to the
content marketing side of things, and

just, like, content creation just I
think, like, in general, it's just

that stuff just makes me wince even
though, like you, I'm also out there.

I've got things to sell and, you know, a,

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: know, a family to feed and whatever.

But at the same time, I think that you're,
you're touching on the, the, the basis

of what makes this medium so powerful is
that we're all able to, to get out there.

Here's, here's my, my, my coffee,

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Brad: m- coffee mug.

Let's share, let's share
what we know, right?

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: web.

But, but also, let's share
what we don't know, and I think

Paul Boag: Mm-hmm.

Brad: a real, there's a real
art to what you're describing.

It's like, yeah, going out saying, "Here's
all this stuff about accessibility," and

to speak like you know what it is even if
you're, you're just kinda figuring it out.

there's a way, there's an art form
to basically going, "Here's this area

I find intellectually interesting,"
or, or something that, that appears

to have some promise or, "Here's what
I'm learning." To be able to sort of

simultaneously share and share what
you've learned to date, but also not being

so bold to say, like, "This is the…"

And, and that's what, like,
the, the current state of,

like, LinkedIn, for instance,

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Brad: room

Paul Boag: No

Brad: of that kind of humility,
uh, in, in saying like, "Hey, I

don't have this figured out, but
I think that this is really cool

and this is really interesting."

Paul Boag: Uh, uh, and that is a learnt
skill, 'cause wh- if I go back to that

example with, with accessibility, I did go
in with that I know everything mentality

Brad: know.

Paul Boag: and I fell flat on my face.

And

I, I've kind of learnt from constant
levels of embarrassment over the years

to, to maybe tone it down a bit, you know.

Brad: Yeah

Paul Boag: and I think that's,
that's part of growing older anyway,

is realizing that you're not God's
gift to the world and, you know,

you don't have all of the answers.

Um, but I… What's interesting I find
about LinkedIn is that, uh, is that

people are very savvy, um, and they can
smell content marketing BS a mile off.

And actually, especially now when you
can use AI to produce all this shit,

the, the, the more sincere, the more, um,
genuine, the more open you are, the more

that people respond to that kind of stuff.

And, and I, I run a, an agency academy,
so, uh, agency owners and freelancers

and, and, uh, most of them go, "Oh, I
could never share like you share, Paul,"

because, you know, I, I'm, I'm not a
fan of that kind of content marketing.

It makes me feel uncomfortable,"
and all of that kind of stuff.

And I said, "Forget all of that.

Forget selling, forget building a profile.

Just help people.

Just share what you know and help
people." And really that's all I do.

I went down, right?

I went down that path.

So I started off with that mentality.

Then everybody started, you know,
"Content marketing is an important part

of your personal brand," and all this.

I went, "Oh, yeah, all right
then." And, and so I kinda went

down that road for a while.

And it, A, it felt very uncomfortable.

B, it was not me.

and, and so I've now pulled back to
it and just gone back to, I don't

care who you are, I don't care if
you're a student who's never gonna

hire me, I'll have a chat with you.

You know,

I'll, I'll help as many people as I
can in whatever situation I can, you

know, and, and I'll share what I know
as I get along, and people love it.

And, and it, it just… But even
if they don't, I don't care.

You know, I just… Because I'm getting as
much reward out of the process of sharing.

And like I do, I do something on, uh,
uh, people, you know, I often chat, um,

people will comment on something I've
written on LinkedIn or whatever and, and

so I'd reply and, and, and I'd often say,
"Do you want a, just a virtual coffee?"

Right?

"Do you wanna grab…" And I don't even
look at their profile to see who they are.

But the number of times I've had calls
with people and, and I've come away

going, "Do you know what? I learnt
more out of that. They thought they

were gonna learn from me, but I took
so much away from that experience."

Because we all live in our little
isolated bubbles otherwise.

Brad: Yep.

Yep.

everybody is living their own rich life.

They only, uh, they, uh, they
are the only person who has

traveled the road that they've

Paul Boag: Yeah!

Brad: that has the experience,
that has this specific lens.

And through that, and through meeting
and, and going, "You seeing what I'm

seeing?" Or, or, "Oh, yeah, like,
here's how I see it differently."

You know, just, just
like this conversation.

But like, with any conversation, we have
so much to learn from each other that

it sounds-- That's, that sounds trite.

That sounds just like, like a cliché

Paul Boag: Yeah, but it's true

Brad: but it's the freaking truth.

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: like the, "Oh.

Oh, okay.

I didn't, I didn't think about it that
way," or, "Ooh, that's like a really cool

framing for it," or, "That's a really

Paul Boag: Do you know…

Brad: or just,

Paul Boag: But even,

Brad: that stuff sinks

Paul Boag: yeah.

And even, you know, for me as a
consultant, you know, why I often

get hired as a consultant is
because people don't know whether

they're doing it right, you know,
in quotation marks or not, right?

And they want a consultant to come
in to, to reassure them or whatever.

So every single one of those
conversations I have is a

reference point that I can make.

You know, so I, if I cha- I was chatting
with someone from Peloton recently, right?

I'm very unlikely to ever work for them.

But, um, uh, there wasn't… I can now
say, "Oh, well, you know, Peloton kind of

take this approach in this situation, and,
you know, this is what they've learned."

And that's, that adds to the conversation.

And I wish more organizations would
actively share their experiences online.

Some of the… One of the, the, the
sectors that I've worked in most

heavily is higher education, And one
of the things I love about the higher

education sector is they do share, right?

They're always… They've all got
their own blogs talking about, you

know, the struggles they've had.

They have their conferences where
they all come together and bitch

and moan about senior management
and, you know, that's wonderful,

and that's the way it should be.

So we should all be doing that really

Brad: I f- and I feel like maybe that
was part of, and you tell me, but it's

like I feel like that there was a window
in time where that felt more common, but

I think it's in that s- that area you
described at the beginning where things

kinda grew up and matured, that it's like
the only things that were maybe being

shared by places was, was more around
the here's like the case study of our

like kinda journey in this, and it's just
like it just kinda felt like well-trodden

and just kinda safe and whatever, and

Paul Boag: And I think that … Yeah,
no, I would, I would utterly agree.

I think there was a time, and I think
the reason there was that time, was

because none of us knew anything.

You know, really we were making things
up as we were going along, and we were

working out the best way of doing it.

And the only way you could find
out, you know, there was no Reddit,

there was no AI you could ask.

You

know, you had to ask other people, and
you had to find out from other people.

And I think that has slowly got eroded.

you know, partly because of COVID, I
think it stopped us meeting and coming

together in, in maybe the ways we did,
that everything matured so there was

guides to do pretty much everything.

And that's the other thing I come across
a lot recently, is that people go,

"Well, what have I got to add to the
conversation? It's all been said," right?

but I think it's how you
say it that matters more.

It's that your way of expressing things is
gonna be very different to the way that I

express it, and that's gonna resonate with
some people, while the way I say it won't.

And the example I always give is
when, when I used to run an agency

and, uh, there was three of us.

There was myself, Marcus
Ellington, and Chris Scott.

me and, me and Chris were opp-
opposite ends of the spectrum.

While I'm big picture, hate details, get
bored easily, you know, attention span

of a goldfish, but full of great ideas.

Chris is so detailed and so methodical
and so … Um, there were some

clients that I was banned from going
into the room with because I, I

used to just wind them up, right?

While Chris was that safe, detailed
pair of hands that nurtured

them, and they loved Chris.

But equally, the other way round.

You could watch some clients, their eyes
would glaze over if Chris started talking.

Um, bless him.

and, and that's fine and, and that's
the way the world should be, so

that you've always got something to
say because what- the way you say

it will resonate in a way that w- a
way I say it won't with some people

Brad: Yeah.

Yep, 100%.

And it's like, I think that there's
also a fallacy that I see people get

into where it's like, "Oh, well, Paul's
ev- al-already blogged about this, so

I have nothing." Well, not, not ev- not
everyone is, is plugged into your world.

Paul Boag: Yeah!

Brad: have your own sphere of
people in, in your realm, right?

That, experience something.

And better yet, there's these things
called hyperlinks where you can

kind of stitch a bunch of these
different ideas together to sort

of make, know, more rich meaning
kinda come out the other end of it.

but I, again, it's like I can't help
but think that the landscape right

now versus o- over the last few
decades, it feels a little, hostile

to just kind of open, honest sharing.

Here's perspective.

It, it feels like everything needs to
have an agenda to it versus just, like,

the act of, "Here's what I'm seeing. I
feel compelled to, like, kind of share

this. I don't know, what do you think?"

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: feels like everything's
gotta have this bow around it

Paul Boag: but then, but the, the irony
is that I think now is the moment where

it's needed more than ever, right?

Partly because of what I was saying
earlier about we need authentic

human voices which learn mistakes
and don't say things with utter

confidence like an AI system.

Brad: Yeah, yeah

Paul Boag: you know, uh,
so there's that aspect.

But then there's also the aspect that,
well, everything's changing again.

Everything's up in the air again.

You're not gonna find the answers, you
know, in n- some n- nice, neat tutorial

because, yeah, it really ama- amuses
me that when I go around LinkedIn at

the moment, that there are AI experts.

The bloody people that make
these AIs are not AI experts.

They don't understand how these
things work, let alone us.

So it's like now is the time we need to
be going, "Did that work for you? Did this

work for you?" And there is some of that.

There's certainly some of that
more on the software side of things

and the kinda backend development.

But I don't feel that there is
anywhere near that am- amount of

thing going on within the front-end
community or the, the UX community, uh,

'cause I don't think most of us, um,
certainly from the UX side of things,

has really figured it out at all.

They, at the moment, we just don't
have a clue what we're doing with it.

Brad: Yeah

Paul Boag: got things that have
worked for me, but I don't know

they'll work for anyone else

Brad: I think, I think that there's
a lot there, and I think that,

that I 100% agree with you and love
the framing that it's like these

things are out there confidently

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Brad: saying straight up just falsehoods.

Like things that, that you know, you're
like, "Yeah, I know that that isn't

true at all," but you say it with such
certitude that it's just like, ugh.

So I think that there's something really
interesting in that we humans have this

capability of saying things in such a
way that, I'm not so sure about this.

Like I, I, I'm not-- I don't have
this figured out." That feels

like, like a really powerful,

Paul Boag: It always is

Brad: to exhibit in this moment in time.

I think

Paul Boag: But with it,

Brad: well to point that out.

Paul Boag: with-- there is this
huge contradiction in us because

we do have this power to say, "I
don't know," or, "I'm not sure.

What's your experience been?"
That we are social animals.

But on the other hand, we crave certainty.

Um, and I see this amongst young
designers a lot, um, that they

want, they want a process, right?

I, I do the double diamond.

I start with my discovery phase,
and then I do this, and then I do

that because that's the process.

And one of the things that I think I've
learnt over the years is that's bollocks.

That doesn't… What is it?

They say, you know, um,
y- y- you-- what is it?

M-Muhammad Ali or somebody said that
you can have a plan until you get

punched in the face or something.

Brad: my, my Tyson

Paul Boag: Mike Tyson, right, yeah.

Brad: yeah

Paul Boag: S-so it's that mentality
that, okay, it can be great to have

a double diamond and a process, but
the-- when you hit the reality of a

project, all of that goes out the window,

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah

Paul Boag: and that actually we
need to be much freer, uh, to say,

"Look, this doesn't work in my
situation. I need to adapt it."

But if you've got these gurus, right?

And I've put myself, you know, I've put
myself in that category in the past.

I've done it, and I, I still
make that mistake occasionally

of saying things too confidently.

People go, "Oh, well, that must be the way
to do things." When in truth, I make it

up as I go along on a per project basis.

Brad: Yeah.

Paul Boag: toolkit, you know, I have
a big toolkit of tools, and I take

different tools out on different
projects, but sometimes you shouldn't

do a discovery phase because it's
not appropriate in that situation.

Other times, you might not want to
do user testing until later in the

project or earlier in the project or,
or not at all sometimes, you know?

That kind of openness and transparency,
I think is what we really need because

there are a lot of people that feel like,
"Oh, well, I don't do it properly." Right?

"I can't share what I do because
I never get any budget to do user

testing." Well, hang on a minute.

there are millions of people out there who
don't have any budget to do user testing.

So how do you work round that?

'Cause they need to know, right?

And, and you need to know
how they work round it,

Brad: Yep.

Paul Boag: that's what I like about
these transition points like at

the moment where AI comes along
and it, it breaks everything.

So now all of that neat process that
we had where we did things in a certain

way, well, that's all rubbish now, right?

Um, because AI has enabled
us to do different things.

So now is the time.

Now is the time you can go,
"Do you know what? The old way

never really did work for me."

Brad: Yeah,

Paul Boag: But,

uh, yeah,

a-anyway, but now it
certainly doesn't, you know?

Brad: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, there's this, this kind of
like almost a false comfort or like

a false, this is how it is or this
is the right way of doing things.

And a lot of it is just boils
down to it's like just happen

to calcify in a certain shape.

That doesn't mean that
it was the right shape.

It just meant that like we got into this

Paul Boag: Yeah!

Brad: doing things i- in a certain way,
and I think that, that yeah, this, this

moment has showed up with some dynamite to

Paul Boag: And the

Brad: explode all of

Paul Boag: the other problem it creates
is that oftentimes the people that

are talking about this kind of stuff,

right, who are talking about best
practice, are people like us who are

very privileged and have reached a
certain standing in our career where

we're tending to work with a certain
type of client that are often quite

big what works for those clients may
be massively inappropriate for another.

You know, take something like
design systems that you write

about or have done in the past.

You know, you, you've got an amazing,
structured way of thinking about design

systems that's incredibly scalable,
that can work for really big clients.

But if I'm working for, you
know, a little, three-person

business, I shouldn't be building
a massive design system like that.

It would be the inappropriate solution.

But, you know, I could easily go away
feeling bad, "Oh, I haven't done it

like Brad says I should do it, therefore
I'm a rubbish human being," you know?

Sorry, I shouldn't have picked
on your stuff, should I?

I should have picked on
something I talk about

Brad: we see it, w- we've
seen it all the time.

It's like pe- people look over their
shoulders at, like, at material

design and whatever, and they're like,
"Oh, love to do that," or something

like that, "but, like, we don't have

Paul Boag: Hmm.

Brad: gobs of, you know, just people
and infinite time and budget."

It's like, yeah, it's like you're
comparing yourself against, like, a

giant, giant, very mature, very, like,
whatever thing, and it's like, yeah,

you don't, it should do the things that
you need it to do and, and little else.

a consultant, How have you balanced
the pressure of feeling like you need

to roll in with those best practices

Paul Boag: I, I try not to get
myself in, into situations that

have me on that kind of pedestal.

so,

Brad: That's good.

Paul Boag: be- because inevitably
I fail and mess up if I do that.

There are some, there are many
organizations, especially my bigger

clients, that, that want that, that want,
"Here's, here's a set of recommendations

in a very big document that we can s-
uh, send to our, our senior managers."

And I'm absolutely fine producing that if
I can do it with the in-house team, right?

'Cause what there is, is inevitably
there is a group of people that know way

more of me, about … than me about the
circumstances within that organization,

and are much more aware of it, and, uh,
and, and they know the constraints and

the limitations and all of the rest of it.

and my job is really just to articulate
that, maybe in a slightly more businessy

way than they're comfortable doing
is often the case in my situation.

and also to add my credibility to
what they've already been saying,

and I've not got an in- an axe
to grind as an external person.

I don't have an agenda.

So I could come in and reinforce what
they wanna say and add impartiality to it.

So that's really what I see my job
as, not as having all of the answers.

and that's why, you know, I joke,
especially with, with people

where they've had me forced upon
them, which happens sometimes.

the first thing I do is go in to say,
"Well, what have you been saying for

three years that I can now regurgitate
and everybody will suddenly listen to?"

You know?

Brad: Yeah.

Paul Boag: and I, I'm very honest
with them that that's what I'll do.

Um, but my job is to push through what you
already know needs happening, and I think

that's a big part of, of, of my role.

What about you?

I mean, do you, do you do
that kind of engagement?

Brad: Yeah, I, I mean, that's what
I have done for the last 12, 13

years and, uh, kind of shift-shifted
gears a little bit, uh, recently.

But, but same thing, and it's, it's
what we were talking about earlier

with just being able to share.

kind of coming at things with, with
different perspectives, and these things

aren't in competition with one another.

It

Paul Boag: Wowee

Brad: takes the listening to
the people who have been living

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: for years and years that know
exactly what to do, but just for whatever

reason, just based on how human beings
work, they're not being listened to,

and it takes the outside voice in order
to sort of carry it over the line.

And it's that, it's that partnership.

It's, it's really a dance of,
of, uh, kind of a marriage of

those different perspectives
that ultimately things forward.

And, and so that's true for consulting,
that's true for, for blogging, that's

true for, like, a lot of things where
it's like one person by themselves

isn't going to have all the answers.

It really is in that sort of rich
like, here's my experience, here's

this experience, here's these things,
sure, hand-wavy best practices, but

it all kind of comes together in this,
this something that feels like feels

directional, this feels good, this
feels like this actually marries or, or

it, it-- this actually ladders up to a
reality that we can all kind of agree to.

I really like that because it does.

It, it doesn't put the
burden on any one person.

And I, I'm similar where it's like,
I hate being the, "Well, Brad, what

do you think?" And I, I could say,
"Yep, here's what I've seen in, in my

experience," you know, ducking my heads
into all these different places and

working with all these different teams.

But ultimately, it, it is in the, the,
the people that are there, the people that

are living reality that are frustrated,
that know what needs to happen in order

to get out of that frustrated place.

And frankly, like, learned through
doing this for so long is that

most people just want to be heard.

Most people want to be validated.

Most people don't like being
in situations where you're

operating in daily frustration,

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: like, people are willing
to do whatever, compromise,

in order to make that happen.

And so I really like being put in the,
the position of helping people get to that

point So that's always been like, I think
one of the most satisfying parts of, of

doing that kind of work is, is just like
actually giving people the real excuse to

just work, work together and like have fun

it doesn't need to be like this Maybe
maybe all those uh weird ass best

practices and double diamonds and all
that stuff like maybe none of that

matters Maybe you all just need to get
in a freaking room and talk about what

it is you should be making together

Paul Boag: and part of the problem
there is, is, is departmental silos,

job descriptions, all those kinds of
things where they, they put up barriers

between different people collaborating.

You know, "This is my area, this is
your area." And the, the truth is

that a lot of certainly what I do,
um, will cross over those because user

experience doesn't give a monkey's
arse about organizational silos.

Um, and so, uh, and, and that's where
people get uncomfortable because they

feel like they may be treading on each
other turf and somebody is interfering

with my area, and that kind of thing.

Um, my hope that one of the things
that will come out of AI is actually

a move back towards the generalist.

That, that w- we used to live in a world,
you know, I've talked about my first

book with website owner, um, that was
responsible for the whole of the website.

But we used to live in a world
where, where we all had a, a good

understanding of … Or we did a
lot of the jobs ourselves, right?

And then we began to specialize,
and we would become more, and more,

and more, and more specialized.

But what I'm seeing from AI is it's
given me the opportunities to maybe start

pushing the edges of roles a little bit
more, and allowing people to take on

areas that aren't primarily their roles.

Now, that's not to say we can
get rid of the other roles.

So a great example is coding, right?

You know, um, I, I used to code, um,
like, like all web designers used

to do, if you go back far enough.

I mean, uh, that fell out of favor.

But, but, you know, there would've
been a time where, you know … And,

and there is still a time where any
good developer would've slapped me

around the head and said, "Whatever
you do, do not touch any code, Paul.

You are not a responsible adult.

You cannot be trusted with code."
Um, and they would be right, and

they still are right to an extent.

But what AI has given me is the ability
to maybe, um, prototype in code and, and

try things out and, and provide a more,
um, detailed spec to the grownup that

will write the proper code with security,
and accessibility, and all those things

that I won't have thought of, right?

The edges of the roles are
bleeding a little bit, right?

And that gets really interesting.

And that then comes back to our attitude.

How are we gonna respond to that?

Are we gonna feel threatened by that?

Or are we gonna embrace that?

So one example of … that I've
become a, a huge, um, proponent of,

and, and the reason you originally
w- reached out to me, was I

'Cause I was writing about
the democratization of UX.

And, and my argument here is that
most UX teams are under-resourced

and underfunded, right?

You know, so there, there's
a handful of people.

You know, if you look outside of, um,
y- you know, if I look at a typical

agency, there might be a one-to-two
ratio between designers and developers.

You'll never find that in-house, right?

There'll always be way more
developers than there are designers.

So you have this underfunded team
that maybe can touch a slither

of the user experience, right?

but now we're beginning to get into a
world where, hang on a minute, we can

start empowering a developer to do good
UX decision- make good UX decisions, or

a business analyst, or a project manager,
or a marketer, and even maybe to do a

little bit of testing themselves or maybe
do a little bit of prototyping themselves.

Whoa, I don't know about that.

They'll do it shit, right?

Yeah, they will compared
to you, the professional.

But you're touching, what, say,
ten percent of the overall user

experience within your organization?

A slither, because you-
you're under-resourced, right?

So e- let's say you're doing that
ten percent at a hundred percent

quality, you know, top, you know,
best you can possibly do, right?

Great.

So you've now hit ten percent.

You've improved ten percent of
the overall user experience.

But if you empower everybody across
the organization, even if they

just do it to fifty percent, right?

That's gonna be significantly better
than what you would have done yourself.

So our roles start then changing
from being one of doers, right, to

being one of, uh, conductors, right?

Conducting AI agents, conducting humans
using AI, providing the resources,

the teaching material, the training,
the governance frameworks, everything

people need to succeed in that area.

And I think the same could
be said of developers, right?

Instead of going, "Well, designers
are beginning to come onto our turf,"

developers should be embracing that
and saying, "Okay, how can we empower

designers to do it less shit, right?

So when we have to pick it up, right,
there's a better foundation to work

on rather than us having to start from
scratch." So we all need to let go of

our little kind of areas of control
and start embracing a more fluid, you

know, management system, in my opinion

Brad: Yeah No I thi I that's beautiful
I've used this mental model or metaphor

or whatever in the in the past with a lot
of things but it's like there's bricks

are brick people that have well-defined
roles right I am a developer I do this

right I'm a designer You like like the
people yelling at you Don't touch code

You're a designer You're you're this
shape of person And I see material as

being more of a mortar function that

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: in between all the cracks and gives
sort of connective tissue and sort of

strengthens things and/or has the ability
to That's not the That's not a given

that that will happen But I think that
you're you're touching on that dynamic

really really well where it's like we're
all kind of able to expand outside of

our normal parameters or our historic
parameters you can meet that I think as

you rightly said as a threat thing where
it's like Whoa whoa whoa don't do that

kind of work That's my job Or you could
go Oh cool you're interested in this

area or you know and I'm willing to learn
And how do you kind of use this moment

to kind of bring people closer together
especially across these different across

diff people with different incentives
different priorities different fears

different whatever different just They're
different people with different dynamics

And I think that one of the things
that's particularly interesting about AI

as a as a technology is its ability to
translate into different languages And so

when you take y you know you could take
that literally as like yes this is being

translated from English into you know
Japanese or something like that But you

could also this as here is the BA who's
caring about this from their perspective

Here is the QA engineer that's at the end
of the line that that a cares about these

other things Here's all these people that
individually kinda have the pieces of the

puzzle but very very often it's hard to
bring that together into a cohesive whole

And I feel like like this new material
allows more of that where it's just like

right everybody throw your h hopes fears
dreams research give me all your PDFs

give me all your whatever We're gonna just
like throw it all in the stew throw it

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: cauldron in the middle and we're
gonna like make some cool shit together

that is actually like well considered
and is taking into account all of these

different sometimes competing dynamics

Paul Boag: And the real power with
that is that A lot of organizations

and people within organizations,
and, and people generally, we're

kind of fundamentally selfish, right?

And I don't mean that in a horrible way.

But, We want our lives to be easy, right?

We don't wanna sit in more meetings.

We don't wanna have more work than
we need to, et cetera, et cetera.

And so much, certainly so much of
the stuff that UX teams want is to-

is asking people to do more, right?

"I want you to do user research. I
want you to stop your project," right?

"I know you've got a deadline. I know
you've got a budget. But we're gonna

stop all of that, and we're gonna
go and find out what users want."

And then the other common problem, uh,
from UX professionals is, is like, um,

"Oh, I want a seat at the table," right?

No, no, no, we don't want you in the room.

You'll only have other opinions
and other ideas that will make…

The meeting is bad enough as it is.

Can we just get through
this and get things moving?

Brad: Right

Paul Boag: And so what AI, I think,
offers us is, is very low-barrier

entry points for people to start
thinking about the user experience

without overcomplicating it.

So the, the one example that I've
come up with is, you know, most

UX teams, they've got tons of
research that they've done, right?

And they might even…

Let's imagine they're super organized,
and they've got a user research repository

where all this kind of stuff is held.

Well, no one's gonna look
through that shit, right ? You

know, only you care about that.

And every time somebody wants to
know something about the user,

we're sitting in a meeting.

We're discussing, "Yeah,
should we do this?"

You know, "Add this feature to this
thing." "Oh, we ought to find out

what the users think." "Oh, yeah,
but that means going to Bill, and

you know that, that's another week
gone waiting to hear back from Bill.

Let's just make a decision and move
on." But imagine if you connect that

user res- uh, repository with an AI
that's got a persona built on that

user repository that can respond like
the user would in that situation.

Sure, that's not as good
as real user research.

But now, in that meeting, they can go,
"Well, I wonder what our users would think

of this. What would you think of this?"
into the AI, and then they got a response.

Now, is that as good
as real user research?

No.

But at least it's getting
the user in the room.

At least it's getting you in the room.

And it can even, the AI can even say,
"Well, based on our UX playbook," where

someone has taken the time to document
all this stuff, "really it would be quite

good to run a survey around this," right?

but it, it suddenly makes it all so
much accessible, more accessible.

On top of which, you, the AI can also
be logging all of those questions

that are getting asked so that the
central UX team can then go away and

do additional research that further
improves the repository, and that's,

that's where AI can be helping.

Brad: Yeah

Paul Boag: facilitating the easy
flow of an integration of different

disciplines without this kind of awkward,
"Oh, bloody hell, we've gotta have

somebody else in a meeting," you know?

Brad: Yep Yep yep yep No I I you you
hit the nail on the head and I've I've

I've said similar like elsewhere is
like But you said it you said the word

beautifully which is like facilitation
is a facilitator It brings things

in so that during our meetings we're
no longer just actively fighting

and trying to talk each other out of

Paul Boag: Yeah!

Brad: because it's laborious and expensive
to make that prototype or do that thing

or go bother Bill or like figure that
stuff out It's just like Ugh we can't

be bothered so we're going to spend our
time together in meetings Let's push

back And you're like That's thoroughly
depressing What if you're like oh in

the f in the course of a meeting just
on demand the stuff just kinda comes to

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: and and it's not and it's
not a a an approximation of it It's

like often just the actual raw stuff

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: can be

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Brad: brought closer to you and that
that could happen from UX research

That could happen from a you know a
business standpoint That could happen

from a designer perspective a developer
perspective Like literally like any

perspective It's like Oh yeah like I
have stuff for that And then again you

throw it in the cauldron and then your
meetings become less Let's like talk each

other out of doing things and instead
go we got all this good stuff here

Let's let's explore it together Let's

Paul Boag: I-

Brad: what this gets us

Paul Boag: is that not
transforming as well that your job?

I mean, I feel like I've got a superpower.

So I go into a new organization, right?

And, and I'm sure you feel
this, or at least I hope you do.

I hope it's not just me.

But when I go into it, I feel utterly
overwhelmed instantly because everybody's

throwing this information at you, and it

you're kind of parsing it all.

Now I'm hungry for it.

Now I'm saying, "You know, any PowerPoint
presentation you've ever made that's

vaguely related to this, any document,
any data source, anything, give me. Give

me it all, and then I can push it through
an AI that consolidates it all." And

you can begin to see a narrative emerge
of what's gone wrong or what's gone

right, and how we might move through it.

Then you start doing your stakeholder
interviews, where you talk to

all the different people, and
they share their perspectives.

All of that gets fed in as well,
and you end up with this really…

And like you say, it extracts this
kind of common narrative or this

common thread that you can follow.

And yes, of course, you've still
gotta make judgments about it.

You still need a human in the loop.

But processing that vast amount of
information, it's so much easier than it

would be doing it personally, you know?

Brad: through those those conversations
that you have where you're able to

start sort of playing some of this
stuff back to actually see if it

matches reality cause cause there is
like a real risk in just kinda being

like Cool we just threw a bunch of
artifacts in there It spat out like

Paul Boag: Yeah

doesn't mean it's right.

Brad: it No But but but that's where
it's like you as a facilitator as a

human facilitator you're able to sort
of like start holding up a mirror and

sort of say like How does this feel as

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: you know some some trends or these
things that have like happened You know

the one of my favorite questions to
ask is just like Oh like what haven't

I considered yet what is opaque or what
is like not the thing that I'm like

directly asking for but like what are
like some subterranean or like different

trends or or alternative ways of of
thinking about this that is used as a

vehicle for expanding our human judgment
and and exercising critical thinking

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: collectively like as a group of
human beings get to sort of explore this

territory together It j it just feels
it feels healthy and it and because

it is like kinda taking that stuff
would otherwise be just very very very

laborious to put together It's like
you you could probably get there on

your own but but just having something
that's like a lot more immediate allows

you to have more fruitful conversations
and make better decisions sooner that

feels like a good thing I don't know

Paul Boag: Uh, yeah.

And I, and I think there's another
aspect to it, is that It's very easy

for you to misinterpret what someone
has said, and AI is really good.

if you ask it to summarize what
somebody has said, like in a meeting

or whatever, it can often throw up your
own misinterpretation of what happened.

Uh, there was a great example recently
where I was talking to a new client

she said, "Well, why are you so much
more expensive than other people?"

I'd quoted her a number, right?

And, and she said, "You're, you're
much more expensive than everybody

else." So I went into this long
r- diatribe about how I'm worth it

'cause, you know, obviously I am.

But when I read back the, the, the,
the transcript afterwards, or where

I got AI to talk it through with
me, it said she misunderstood you.

She thought you were quoting
a per month rate when you were

quoting a year rate, right?

And, and those kinds of things.

I mean, I, I, I get things like that
when I do, um, user interviews as well,

that I'll come away with a load of notes.

AI will come away with a completely
different n- set of notes where it's

seen different things in that meeting.

Now, obviously, you have to say, "How
did you come to that conclusion? Give me

a quote," so that you know it's not just
making stuff up as it, as it likes to.

Um, but, but it's really useful.

Although I don't understand this.

This whole thing about hallucination,
right, it really amuses me.

"Oh, you can't trust AI,
it hallucinates," right?

Well, hang on a minute, so do people.

We ha- we hallucinate all the time.

We make up shit all the time.

It-- we misremember things.

So why, so why are we holding
AI to a higher standard?

You know, it's-- as long as you
know that it makes things up and as

long as you get it to justify, you
know, its statements, that's okay.

You know, you just gotta take
what it says with a pinch of

salt like you do with a human.

We've been too used to
computers always being right.

Um, I think that's the problem

Brad: Yeah No I I I think that
that's right and and it gets into

here's math here's like deterministic

Paul Boag: Yeah,

Brad: code right Two and two always
equals four And so it is it's it's a

very weird thing But but viewed through
the lens of yeah here's fallible human

beings with our own biases with our own

Paul Boag: Ooh.

Brad: of instincts and stuff And the idea
hopefully just as we do with groups of

human beings uh as we've been talking
about in this conversation is just like

sharing our different perspectives and
kinda figuring out where the truth is

somewhere in the middle And hopefully
using our conversations and our and our

mirrors up a up to each other to find
out where is this just my own personal

bias or privilege or whatever bleeding
into things And like how do we sort of

arrive at a at a healthy middle ground
And we now have this extra tool that helps

us do that even further right Where it
itself is hallucinating and making these

things but when used appropriately you
can kind of find the It's like where is

the truth in in between And I think that
getting that point where we're sort of

using this tool as a way of exercising
more critical thinking and more judgment

it's 100 possible Again that doesn't mean
that it's a given that that that's like

an in inherit like but it can be used that

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: can be used as a way to facilitate
human judgment and and critical thinking

Paul Boag: I love your idea of
you can take lots of different

perspectives of different people
within an organization and get AI to,

to extract commonality or to help you
understand those different perspectives.

I think that's really good.

It just reminded me of something I did,
um, a while ago on my own business, right?

'Cause one of the things that I'm sure you
feel the same, uh, uh, you're by yourself.

You don't have a partner
in your business, do you?

Is it, is it just you?

Brad: work with my brother I work

Paul Boag: Oh, you work with your brother.

Oh, that helps.

Brad: works

Paul Boag: So I used to, I used to
run an agency, as I said, with two

other people, but I don't anymore.

It's just me, and I miss that, right?

Brad: Yep

Paul Boag: being able to talk it over
with other people, and so I came up

with this stupid idea of, well, okay,
if I could create my ideal board of

directors, who would it be, right?

So I wrote out a list of people,
different authors, and stuff that

I like, and I got AI to go away.

I want you to do deep research
using Perplexity on these people,

their standpoints, their point of
view, the, well, the rest of it.

I consolidated all that together, filed
it, file, um, uh, pushed it into a

large language model, and so now I ask
business questions of my virtual board.

And it, it kind of, it comes
back with all these different

perspectives on the problem.

Now, obviously, you don't take that
literally, and you have to use your

judgment, but when you work by yourself,
it's really good for challenging your

view of things, your worldview of things.

'Cause this is the big problem.

It's like I see this amongst
UX professionals all the time.

Why does nobody care about the user?

Where, why … The, all these
people should care about the user.

Well, how much do you care
about health and safety, right?

Or HR or finance?

You don't read any of their
memos or their emails, right?

But all those things are re- really
important to those departments.

Yeah.

So we all live in our own little bubbles,
and anything that can challenge that,

I think is just brilliant, you know?

Brad: Yeah Yeah Yeah And and that's the
thing is just like here are these things

here are these regulatory blah blah blah
Here are these things that like those

people are often just the messengers of

Paul Boag: Yeah!

Brad: the the industry is But it's
it's like it's the parable of the blind

men and the elephant right Which is

Paul Boag: Yeah,

Brad: everyone approaches the elephant
and oh oh the elephant is is like a snake

because they're touching the trunk and Or

Paul Boag: yeah

Brad: is like a tree because they're
touching the leg And it's it is really

through everyone's collective perspective
that you can paint a full picture And

again that that historically has been very
hard to come by very laborious to come

by because the chances of getting that
regulatory person in the room with the

UX designer and the engineering manager
and the Just you know forget about it

Like those those those opportunities
don't come up nearly as often as they

should where like this idea of just
kind of having something that can help

triangulate and and synthesize and
kind of help find the like what is that

overlapping Venn diagram that sort of

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: the things that every single group
needs to do and then also better yet

that actually like addresses people's
individual fears and and risks and stuff

like that I think that that stuff's like
really powerful too because people are

motivated by like we wanna do a good
job We have dreams and aspirations I

think that that's that's probably true
That's an innate human quality We're

we're to something And then we also
care a lot about we're we're fearful

creatures We have you know there are
risks there are things that get us

promoted there are things that get us
fired And I think like if you're able

to sort of extract that from groups of
human beings even though those fears

those hopes those dreams all of those
things are going to be individually

different there are ways to sort of

Extract that use it in useful ways
and sort of find the way that that is

the sweet spot between everything that
is just like Oh okay Yeah like here's

a way forward that that ticks all of
these boxes for all of these different

people As things have grown up and and
matured things have calcified at this

place where people have their own lanes
We kind of have this understanding

people aren't stepping on each other's
toes and here are the protocols for

interacting with these people and
you go through these Jira tickets and

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: things and stuff like that what I'm
finding and I've always found it difficult

to do is to just be like You know you
could just get together and like work

together and jam on some things and like
have just like a creative conversation and

make some stuff together people are just
like Ugh Ugh Uh like I hear what you're

saying but also that feels scary Like I
I don't know It just it feels like things

have stratified things have calcified in
kind of an unhealthy dynamic and now it's

just like kind of like okay here's this
tool And we get it a lot just even with

our like our AI and design systems course
that we're putting together is just like

how do we use this to like facilitate
like handoff or to make handoff go better

It's like well what if you just remove
handoff entirely What does it look like

to just maybe use this as a means to to
get come together and build stuff together

Paul Boag: yeah

I mean, I think it, it depends on the
organization, um, uh, because I think

logistically that can pr- when the
organization reaches a certain size,

logistically, just getting everybody in
the room to jam on something together is,

Brad: Yeah

Paul Boag: a, a logistical nightmare.

the way that I'm tending to do it is
almost the complete opposite of that,

yet I agree with the, the essentials of
what you're saying there, which is, um,

that I'm tending to take the attitude of
try- trying to get beyond the stepping

on each other's toes, that it's okay
to step on each other's toes, right?

so rather than necessarily let's get
everybody together and do it all in a

room together, which can be difficult to
do, and I've struggled to do that, I'm

Brad: sure

Paul Boag: going down the lines of,
well, look, start letting go control

of your area and em- and empower other
people to have a go at what you go…

you do, right?

Brad: Yeah Yep

Paul Boag: and, and so, you know,
for example, it's stupid if y-

let's imagine an organization
with a design system, okay?

Brad: Mm-hmm

Paul Boag: a design system in place.

It's stupid that the developer has to come
back to a designer every time they want a

new user interface, um, designed, right?

You've, you've got a design system
that's got accessibility baked into

it, and everything else that needs to
be considered from a UI point of view.

All you need is a little bit of extra
documentation in your design system that

says, which probably should be there
anyway, which says, "This is h- when you

use a radio button compared to when you
use a checkbox, and this is where…"

Uh, just laying out a bit of rules.

That can even be fed into an AI,
so an AI can follow those rules.

If the, the UX team, um, creates some
associated documentation that, that

outlines this is how landing pages
are built, this is how donation flow

is built or whatever else, then, then
really why get involved in that, right?

Um, yeah, but, and, but what you
do, you don't just then make that

the developer's problem and say,
"Well, that's your problem now."

You say, "Well, we'll still
be responsible for it.

We're gonna take the
blame if it goes wrong.

We're also here if you wanna
show us stuff, but we just

don't wanna get in the way.

We'll help you as much as you want
to, but don't feel you have to come

to us if it's just a little thing.

You can get, you know, AI to,
to produce your interface based

on our rules or whatever else."

You know, we insert ourselves
into situations where we don't

really always need to be there.

and then that enables us to look at
the bigger picture, right, and to start

doing the more strategic work that
we bitch and moan about that we've

never got time to do at the minute,

Brad: Yeah Yeah Yep yep No that's that's
exactly right And that's it like you

you just perfectly described I think
what we're getting at with with our

course and what we've been kind of doing

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: how do you just like push this
stuff down make the stuff available

so that humans machines and hybrids
of the two can just kind of like do

things And when you say make a landing
page it builds it using the the best

practices that you collectively have
agreed are are are the things that make

up a good landing page and stuff So

it's a different shape
of kind of the same thing

Paul Boag: And this is where I've
been really cracking on about

something that hasn't taken off.

You, you wrote this amazing book on
atomic designing, and design systems

took off, and everybody went, "Oh,
Brad's wonderful. He's so clever," right?

So, so design systems
have really taken off.

My thing, right, which sits alongside
that, is a digital playbook, right?

With, with operator- standard
operating procedures and all of

that kind of stuff, and no, that's,
that's not sexy like a design system

is, so everybody's ignored that.

But I'm, as you can tell, I'm deeply
bitter about this because especially now,

because that repository, if you have a
repository of all of that information, AI

eats that shit up and, and will, can now
churn out, you know, designs that are not

just using the design system but are using
it right, are using it from a, a usable,

accessible, you know, readable, scannable,
all of the other able's, um, perspective.

And so those two components actually, I
think, sit together very well as a whole.

but unfortunately my half is
not as trendy as your half

'cause… So, you know, I'm bitter

Brad: uh y you shouldn't be because I
think it's all like you said I think

you said it really well It's like this
is all in play It's like here are these

things these these assets and stuff like
that but it's like without the proper

instruction manual without like proper

Paul Boag: Mm-hmm.

Brad: and well-considered ways of
of sort of assembling it all you're

gonna end up with a freaking mess

Paul Boag: Yeah, but you
see, talking about standard

operating procedures sounds dull.

What I need to start doing is I
need to call them AI skills, right?

'Cause of course that's trendy at the
moment, but it's essentially a standard

operating procedure written in Markdown.

So, so I'll just call it a
different name and it'll be fine.

Brad: Sex sexy operating
procedures would be more sexy

Paul Boag: I'm not convinced.

I don't think we're fooling
anyone with that one.

Brad: one thing uh y you you joked at
the very beginning uh about retirement

Paul Boag: Yes

Brad: As as you've been sort of on
on this journey for a long time as

Paul Boag: Ooh

Brad: daughter's sort of coming
up through y you get to see her

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: career sorta starting can you can
you talk about that a little bit Just like

it it's through the lens of longevity but
also kind of like new chapters and kinda

what comes next when you feel like you've
you've been riding all of these waves for

so long there's clearly an excitement and
enthusiasm and a lot to be digging into in

this day and age But I'm also very curious
about like when you have been working

on at something since 1994 and it's just
like Oh okay you know Like here we are all

these years later Like what your journey
and like thought process been around

that And like what do you see in terms of

Paul Boag: Is that a very long way
of wha- yeah, it's a very long way of

saying, "Are you gonna retire, Paul?

Get… Come on.

Sort your act out.

Get get, out of the way
for the younger people."

Brad: no, no, no.

It's definitely, definitely not that.

But I am very, I am very interested in
just kind of like how people are, are

approaching that because there's, there's
not a standard operating procedure for

Paul Boag: No.

there's not, because it's the
first generation that are beginning

to, to get to that point now,

Brad: Yep

Paul Boag: Um, people like, you
know, Steve Krug, um, Jakob Nielsen,

they're a little bit ahead of me.

The trouble is, there are aspects I
absolutely do want to retire from,

and there are aspects that I don't.

The… Really, I love what I do.

and I, uh, and, and the bit that I love
more than anything else is helping people.

I know that sounds so trite, doesn't it?

Brad: No, dude

Paul Boag: but, but I love, I love
helping people when they get stuck

on projects, and I can unstick them.

I love giving people advice
because I think I know everything.

Um, you know, I just…
I love all of that stuff.

so I wanna carry on doing that
really as long as, as long

as people will listen to me.

Um, I don't imagine myself retiring.

I don't imagine myself stopping,
learning new stuff because,

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Paul Boag: uh, you know, I see so
many people that retire and then turn

into vegetables because they're not
continually engaging with the world.

Um, and I look at my, my dad
is… Even though I'm what?

Mid-50s now, my dad is still a role
model to me and, and, you know, he's

still very much active in his 70s
and still, still lecturing and still

teaching and all that kind of stuff.

So I imagine that.

But what I, um, want… The, the bit that
I wanna retire from is, is, you know this,

is running your own business, is having
to bring in enough money every month.

That, that's the bit I'm done with.

You know, that anxiety of, you know,
am I gonna pay the bills this month?

And it's not… I mean, I'm pretty
fortunate these days, but, but e- even

so, it'd be nice to be rid of that.

and in some ways, I am
kind of semi-retired.

I probably realistically am working
four, five hours a day rather than

eight now, which is nice, and I
spend most of my time traveling.

So we spent three years traveling around
the States in, in an RV, um, which

was amazing, and we're beginning to do
the same thing now in, in UK this year

and then next year across into Europe.

Uh, I've, I've built a lifestyle
business very, very intentionally.

I'm not gonna get rich.

I'm not gonna be able to sell
my agency or my consultancy.

It's all built around me.

I don't care.

I'm more int- I'm more interested in
living life now than I am when I retire,

but I don't wanna screw myself over
equally 'cause, you know, I d- I want

to not have to bring in, you know,
what I have to bring in every month.

Brad: Yeah.

That, uh, that's amazing.

And, uh, so it sounds like you've done
a lot of active work to get to that

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Brad: get into an RV and, and do that.

That, that obviously requires a lot
of careful planning and consideration.

Ca- could you speak to that a little bit?

Paul Boag: Yeah

so it took about a decade, I think, from
when I first had the idea to where the

business… 'Cause when I first, I say
I first had the idea, it was my wife,

um, really wanted to do it, and I was
like, "I don't know whether, you know,

I don't know whether that's practical.
I don't know how to do that," et cetera.

Um, but she was determined.

Cause to begin with, I was
still at an agency, right?

I was still running the agency, so I
was running that with other people.

That ties you down and limits what
you can do and, and when, what

hours you need to be available
and all those kinds of things.

So that had to change to begin with.

Um, then I had to build up the
new business because, you know,

you can't do it from day one,
although I was very fortunate.

Um, and then, then the big problem was
connectivity for a while, and I hate this.

I hate it with a passion, but I am,
I have to be grateful to Elon for

Starlinks because I, I wouldn't be able
to do it very easily without Starlink.

Um, I'm using Starlink at the moment.

and there were various other logistic-
I had to break my clients into the

idea that I would only be available
in mornings for my American clients

and afternoons for my, my UK clients.

I had to wean myself off of
Australian clients 'cause I

just couldn't get that to work.

Then I had to learn how to work
more intensely, I, you know,

so that I could work four hours
in a very efficient manner.

and of course, I had to get my rates
to a point where, like, that was

enough for working four hours a day.

So there was a lot of moving parts to it,
which happened over a series of years.

Um, a- and I got lucky as well.

It was a big… You know,
that's a part of it as well.

For example, w- we, going back to
Starlink, you know, we started doing

this going, "Well, we're gonna have
to be in areas where there was cell

coverage." Um, and we started, and a
month in, Starlink came out, you know?

And suddenly we could be, y- you
know, in the middle of a dried-up

riverbed in Utah, um, and I can
still do my Zoom calls, you know?

Brad: That's incredible.

That's incredible.

And, and thank you for, for painting that
picture because I'm sure that people,

like to the outside observer, if you
just see yourself riding around in an

RV, you go, "Oh, well that must be nice."

Paul Boag: Yeah, yeah

Brad: talking about like a decade
of work to lead to, to that moment.

I, I really love that
because it's like that's a…

Y- you just designed that for

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Brad: and your family.

Like,

Paul Boag: I've always been,
I've always been a bit like that.

I'm always this, uh … In fact,
I, I feel lost if I've not got

something I'm working towards.

Um, so, you know, that … I, I had a
weird time when I mean, we would still be

in America to this day if it wasn't for
your current president and his attitude

towards, people coming into his country.

when we stopped doing
that, I was kinda lost.

It was like, "Well, what's my aim
now?" so that, that was, that was

a tricky time for a little while.

So yeah, I do like to have
a plan I'm working towards.

But it never goes as you
think it is, does, you know.

Uh, our poor daughter, she went
off to university, uh, and,

um, it was like, "Right, bye.

We're going to the other
side of the Atlantic.

Best of luck." You know?

She just got abandoned.

yeah

Brad: was crying the,
crying the whole time.

Paul Boag: No, she had, she,
uh, she, she was one term in.

We were intending to wait a year, and
she had such a, uh, she just took like,

you know, duck to water to it, and
just wasn't contacting us or calling

us or… And she was well settled, and
it was like, "Well, there's no point

of us being here then, is there?"

Brad: there we go.

All right.

That's amazing.

That's amazing.

you're also getting at though,
it's like, what's all of this for?

Paul Boag: Oh, yeah.

Brad: for?

What's,

Paul Boag: Yeah,

Brad: what's running a business?

What's running your own business for?

And, and I think that this is, this is
something that with this new landscape,

who the hell knows how this is gonna shape
up, but it does feel like there might

be more opportunities for more people
to exercise their own agency and, and

autonomy and stuff and, and do things
in a way that works with, with what they

wanna get out of life and to not have to
wait until you hit, you know, 63 and get a

Paul Boag: Yeah,

Brad: in order to finally start traveling.

So, so I really love… Could
you speak to that aspect of it?

Or it's just like,

Paul Boag: yeah

Brad: "Here's what it does.

Here's what, what you
could point it at in order

Paul Boag: I mean,

Brad: g-

Paul Boag: Eddie

Brad: you live a richer life."

Paul Boag: This is a… 'Cause
I coach, I coach lots of people,

but one of the groups I coach, I
think I've already mentioned this,

is freelancers and agency owners.

And,

Brad: Yeah

Paul Boag: well, you know, they
come in and they talk about what

they want to achieve with their
business, you know, that, that,

um, "Oh, we haven't got enough
sales," or, you know, "I don't…"

You know, "I'm thinking about hiring
people," and all the rest of it.

And the first question I always ask is,
"Forget the business. What do you want

your life to be?" because I often think
people start from the wrong premise.

It, it always reminds me of a little,
um, The Rocky Horror Show and, and

Seymour, that your business becomes this
monster that needs to be constantly fed.

and actually your business needs to
be facilitating your life, not your

life facilitating your business.

And I think a lot of people get
trapped in this scenario where, they

go, "Well, it has to be this way." I
mean, the typical thing is, I have to

work seven days a week, uh, multiple,
you know, long hours every day

because, I'm not earning enough money.

I'm not earning enough money because
I'm not… Um, I can't charge more.

I can't charge more because my clients
wouldn't accept me charging higher." And

I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no, you're,
you're looking at the entire thing back

to front." You gotta start by saying,
"What do I want," right, "from my life?

How much money do I
need to earn to do that?

What would my hourly ra- How many
hours am I willing to work to do that?

What would my hourly rate be?

What type of clients do I need in
order to be able to do that?" and,

and so starting from the lifestyle
I think is really important.

And I mean, yeah, I've, I've got, um,
a, a… Friends of my parents had,

um, a, a kid a little bit younger
than me, and, um, he, uh, moved

into the same industry and, and has
been hugely successful in the field.

and he's now probably mid-40s coming
up to 50, and he's semi-retir- He's

retired basically at that point.

But he bust his gut to do that, right?

He worked up in London.

He had long commutes.

He, worked huge hours, earned a fortune,
all the rest of it, and that's great.

That's, that's what he wanted and,
and now he can retire early and

that's g- I'm not criticizing that.

That's his choice.

I didn't want that for my life.

I wanted to be able to liv- earn enough
to live the life that I wanted to live.

you've gotta be clear of
what you want going in.

Do you want to earn a load of
money and retire early, or pay off

your mortgage or whatever else?

Do you wanna be able to travel?

Do you wanna be able to take every
Wednesday afternoon off to go play

golf or, you know, do whatever?

And I don't think people
have a clear enough idea of

what they actually want from

um, from their lives, you know?

And

Brad: Yeah

Paul Boag: wrong, that's not easy to
know that, especially when you're trapped

in a cycle of, of I'm just doing work
because I've got to do work, you know?

Brad: Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

I think that, that, this kind
of chaotic moment in time.

The, the wave is very sort of foamy
and thrashy, and like everybody is just

kind of caught up in it, that there's
not really a lot of time or space

to put yourself into that head space
of, "Well, what exactly do I want?"

Paul Boag: But

Brad: think that there's
so much of like the-- Yeah.

Paul Boag: ironically, it's
also the best time because

everything's going to shit anyway.

That's, that's a huge,
a huge exaggeration.

But everything's in turmoil,
so what have you got to lose?

You know, it's like we set up our
agency, as the dotcom bubble burst

'cause we got made redundant.

So what do we have to lose, right?

And actually, I think it's much harder
to make those lifestyle changes when

everything's very level and safe and,
you know… You, you almost need the

push, don't you really sometimes,
of going, "Well, I'm gonna get fired

and replaced with AI anyway, so why
don't I try something new?" You know?

Brad: Yeah

is, is really well said,
and I agree with you.

When things are comfortable,
it's very, very difficult

Paul Boag: Hmm.

Brad: rock that boat, that it really
takes sometimes some hard, which sucks

that it, that it sometimes requires that.

But those are really important moments.

Those are important seams that these
are moments to capitalize on, to

basically sort of take a step back.

I promise you that the hype cycle, the,
the fervor will all still be there, but

it's like kinda taking a step back and
figuring out w- what it is you want.

Did, did you have anything
that's been particularly helpful

for you defining what that is?

Is it-- It sounds like your
wife certainly had like a

Paul Boag: She, yeah, she tells me.

Brad: like had

Paul Boag: yeah.

Brad: but she tells you

Paul Boag: She, she says,
"I want more money."

Brad: out of

Paul Boag: Yeah, "I want more
money," or, "I want to travel.

Make it happen, Paul." No,

Brad: Yeah

Paul Boag: I honestly couldn't tell you.

Although I'm a very optimistic person,
I'm sure almost naively optimistic

as maybe it's come across in this
interview, I'm also somebody who is

easily dissatisfied with life, right?

So I often want to change things.

Oh, I'm s- I'm always
stuck in this office.

I wanna get out in the world, right?

And I'm almost motivated by
dissatisfaction a lot of the time.

I get bored very easily is
the other big thing for me.

so I'm always wanting to try new things.

And then sometimes, you know, I try all
these new things, and they won't resonate,

and then something, I hit something,
and it, it, and it just feels right,

and I will pursue that, regardless.

I'm also very lucky in my personality.

I mean, this is, uh, every, every
personality trait has its pros and its

cons, and this is, this is a good example
of that, but I am one of those people that

tends to run in where angels fear to tread
and not think through consequences at all.

Um, and, and that can be very
useful when it comes to trying new

things and going in new directions.

Um, and so, uh, my inability to think
something through and then think

through the consequences maybe works
in my advantage, and maybe if I thought

more, I wouldn't actually do stuff.

I don't know.

Brad: But, you see what happens when
people do spend too much time thinking

Paul Boag: You could paralyze yourself.

Yeah, yeah

Brad: 100%.

We, we both see that.

So it's like, yeah, it's, it's
the, there's, there's kind of risk,

risk-taking, and then there's kind of just
basic responsibility almost of, of sorts.

So it's just like kinda going like,
yeah, you're not just going to go,

"Right, everything we own and just, you
know, put it all on black, uh, on the

Paul Boag: No, I'm not like that.

Brad: that.

Yeah,

Paul Boag: I, I think it helps
if you can nurture, or, or not

nurture, the opposite of nurture,
crush the, the fear of failure.

it's okay to try things
and them not work out.

I think it always ultimately works out.

And don't get me wrong, I
mean, I've been through some

horrendous times in my career.

you know, we, before we started
recording, I talked about, you

know, how I burnt myself out and,
and all of that kind of stuff.

Um, there have been times when
I've really screwed up badly,

but it recovers, you know?

And, and I … There's a, there's
a, a kind of great attitude that I

absolutely love, which is everything
is in constant, a constant state of

flux and a constant state of change.

So the bad times won't last forever,
but neither will the good times, right?

It's always changing, and it's always
moving, and as long as you keep

moving with it, it'll work itself out.

And, and I know that's naive in some
situations, and I know it doesn't work

out for everybody all of the time, but
it's still a good attitude to have if you

can lie to yourself enough to believe it.

Brad: But I, I don't think that
it's being li- i- it, it's lying.

It's, it's, it's being quite honest
with which, which is things are changing

these times of, of calm, of relative

Paul Boag: Yeah, that'll go

Brad: It-- that's been a hard thing for
me after kind of years and years of, of

kind of varied traumas when the times
have been calmer, and they thankfully,

at least in this moment in time are,
I've, I have that kinda looking over my

shoulder a little bit and, and there's,
there's, uh, you know, a guardedness

or, you know, I'm kind of v- vigilant.

at the same time, I think that even though
that sucks, I've kind of learned to sort

of translate most of that into just a
constant state of gratitude for every day

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: not on fire.

Paul Boag: I mean, obviously
it helps to go this, this bad

period isn't gonna last forever.

That's easy, right?

We all, we all like that.

But the, this good period
is not gonna last forever.

Brad: Yeah.

Paul Boag: That's a harder skill to
come to terms with, but it's very

releasing when, when you get there.

I mean, take for example, you know,
um, when Mr. Trump started, you know,

changing the rules about traveling
around America and what we could do and,

and we had to come to the conclusion
that this thing we'd been doing

for three years had come to an end.

And, and we'd loved it.

We loved every minute of it.

But being able to let go and
say, "Okay, that was a good

time, but it's gone," right?

And it's now time to find the next
thing and move on to the next thing.

And I think that applies in
personal life, but it applies in

your career as well, you know?

Brad: Yeah.

Paul Boag: I remember when I was laid
off, uh-- well, not when I was laid off.

What am I talking about?

I ma- I laid myself off from the agency,
and I stepped back from that, and that

was a very hard thing to let go of.

Um, a-a-and I mourned losing it, but it
now allowed me to turn my attention to the

next thing and what was gonna come next.

And, and I think that's good.

That's the-- It's all right that
everything passes, you know?

Sorry, got very profound, haven't we,
here towards the end of this podcast?

Brad: I think, I think, I think, I think
it's important because, uh, you know,

whether you've been at it for, for a
while or, or a lot of people are still,

getting into it along the way, th- that
bit of self-reflection and that bit of

just understanding the cyclical nature
of things, the constant state of change,

how we feel about it, how we react
towards it, what we do about it, what

actions we do take, all of that matters.

Like, you know,

Paul Boag: I t-

Brad: what really all of

Paul Boag: yeah.

Brad: what all of this is for

Paul Boag: And from, from a really
practical point of view, I think

it's particularly relevant to those
of us who run our own businesses,

where that day when you lose
that really good client, right?

'Cause they just decide
to go somewhere else.

And you can really beat
yourself up from that.

You can think, "Oh,
what have I done wrong?

I've messed up." But
everything passes, right?

Everything cha- event- you know, people
sometimes change supplier just because

they feel it's time for a ch- a change,
and, you know, no other reason than that.

you've got to try and be as chilled
about these things as you can and

allow things, things to come and go.

I should be a Buddhist monk, I think.

I've, I've, I've gone
very Zen all of a sudden.

I've got the haircut for it,

Brad: You got the hair?

Yeah,

Paul Boag: Yeah,

Brad: right ready for it.

But,

Paul Boag: yeah,

Brad: I do think, I do
think it's good advice.

It's like, go easy on yourself.

By all means, I think, like feel
the feelings, like when, when

Paul Boag: I'm not, yeah

Brad: When there's loss, when there's
hard, it's like let all that stuff in, but

at the same time, have it serve its time.

Things need to run their
course, and that's different

for each person individually.

Uh, but at the same time, you do sort of
see it crop up in the form of resentment

over time, where the people haven't
had the chance to, to kinda like it go

and just move on to the next chapter.

It's like the, " If it weren't just for
that, that one thing, I could've made it.

If, if the

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Brad: only put me in it.

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Brad: the coach only

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Brad: in, I I would've been

Paul Boag: See, that's a, the,
the, y- that, that says the

difference between us, right?

You're, you're using a sports analogy.

You know what it reminded me of?

It reminded me of the first
episode of Deep Space Nine.

Did you ever watch Sp- Deep Space Nine?

Brad: kn- I know of it.

I've never watched it though,

Paul Boag: So in Deep Space Nine, you've
got this character called Sisko, and his,

his wife, uh, g- gets killed, um, uh,
very dramatically in the first episode.

And then he meets these aliens, these very
advanced aliens, that exist outside of

time, and they're very confused because
Sisko seems to live in the past, in this

moment when he lost his wife, and he's
never been able to move on from that.

And, and I often think about that, that
shit episode, because I'm a massive

nerd, and I would argue it's a good
episode actually, but, you know, if

you're not a Trekkie, fair enough.

Of that idea that we can live in
the past, and we get stuck in there.

Almost like you were saying, you look
back on those traumatic times and

you're waiting for what we talk about,
in our family, talk about waiting for

the other shoe to drop, for something
else to go wrong because we're, we're

kind of trapped in that mindset.

And so, you know, getting into that
mindset of, okay, that happened.

I'm acknowledging that.

I'm living with that.

I'm accepting that, but
I'm looking forward.

You know, I'm, I'm trying to live…
Ideally, you should live in the present,

but I, I kind of live in the future.

What's coming next?

What's over the hill,

Brad: yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And there's an art to, to being
in the present but also doing the

Paul Boag: Yeah, I haven't
quite worked that bit out yet.

Brad: yeah.

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Brad: That's for

Paul Boag: shiny thing over there.

That's what I want"

Brad: But it, but it does sound like
y- you've, you've translated a fair

amount into, into gratitude even as you
are excited by the next shiny thing.

It's like y- you are, y-
you realize what you have

Paul Boag: I've been,
I've been very fortunate.

I mean, my timing was impeccable
to j- you know, and pure luck

that I got into the industry.

And that's why I'm, I'm so pissed
off for my poor daughter, 'cause I

just walked in at the beginning of
the internet and just went poof.

While she's like, she's just come out
of uni- you know, just coming out of

university and she's hit with this,
"Oh, by the way, we just changed all the

rules after you've spent however many
thousands of pounds w- on your education."

It's like, oh, poor girl, you know?

Brad: But, but at the same time,
it is, it is in those moments that

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Brad: her generation, they're going
to be in this position of inventing

Paul Boag: What's next?

Brad: And,

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: that's, it is, it is a very,
very strange thing to kind of put those

things in to contrast with each other.

And don't get me wrong, that's
not to trivialize, like, the real,

Paul Boag: Oh yeah

Brad: the bo- the bottom rung of
the ladder being sawed off, like,

it seems like across, across the

Paul Boag: Yeah, that does worry me

Brad: But at the same time, your, your
daughter is inventive and creative,

and so are her peers, and I, I have
to think that, that even that kind

of lousy landscape will work out

Paul Boag: I, and I, I believe that.

You know, I believe they'll, they'll
make their own ladder, you know?

Brad: Yeah.

Paul Boag: uh, just like, you
know, in some ways I did at the

beginning of the web, you know?

And I, uh, but I do think you've also got
to, to be grateful for the breaks that you

get, and I did get some good breaks, you

Brad: Yep.

Paul Boag: Just wandering blindly
into the, to the internet, you know,

I, I was an art student, you know.

My job prospects were
Burger King, you know?

but I happened to see in, in our
studio a, a, a Post-It note stuck

on a board that said, "IBM are
looking for interns for a year out."

And I thought, "Oh, that'd be good
experience for me," you know, to, to

do an interview, not to get the job.

I didn't think I was gonna get the job.

so I, I ran for this, and it was, it was
to work on their first ever multimedia PC

with a, a sound card and a CD-ROM, right?

Somehow I landed that, right?

Yeah, I grabbed the opportunity,
and I think that's what it's about.

It's about grabbing the
opportunities as they came along.

But, you know, that was
luck to a big degree.

And then I got the job, and of course,
while I was there, we started to

get, you know, "Do you know anything
about this internet thing?" And

everybody took a look at it, and it
was, this was before, I think, just

as the image tag had been introduced.

So there was no design.

We hadn't even worked out
table-based design at that point.

And it was like, "I'll give it to
the student." Nobody else wanted

to touch it 'cause, you know,
'cause it was boring and shit.

So I got given it, and so that lucked out.

And then even down to things
like, you know, when, uh, the

iPod came out and it first, uh,
first, uh, supported podcasting.

And I looked for, a podcast on web
design, and there wasn't any, and that

annoyed me, and I decided to make my own.

Again, just, just life just happens.

That's what I mean about surfing.

Do you know what I mean?

You've just gotta surf these different
waves because you don't know where

they're gonna come from next, you know?

Brad: That's beautiful.

That's beautiful.

Well, that's, that's the perfect
way to wrap this up, is just,

it's find, find the waves.

We're all kind of riding this wave right
now, whether you're decades into it

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: you're just getting started.

It's like, we are.

Here

Paul Boag: And i- in many ways,

Brad: do with it?

Paul Boag: I mean, what
a great equalizer, right?

Because our decades of experience don't
mean that much at the moment, do they?

Brad: Yeah.

Paul Boag: so you could be young
starting out, and you're not a lot

far- further behind the two of us

Brad: Yep.

yeah, it's like rather than the, "Am
I doing this right?" Or whatever,

it's, it's I think like really
cul- cultivating a, "What do I

find interesting in this moment?

What are, what are the things
that I, when I look out into the

world that are missing, and w-
what can I do about it," right?

It's, uh, it feels like a
really, really amazing time.

We have nothing but… You
know, forget sound cards.

It's like, jeez, man, like we have

Paul Boag: I know, right?

Brad: materials to work with now.

So it's, uh, I, I do hope that we're
able to sort of collectively kind of

steer into kind of the, the opportunity
part of this versus the, the, the

fear-based or scarcity mindset.

And so I really appreciate you for
you talking about your naive optimism.

I think that that, that… But
that attitude really matters

though, I think, in moments

Paul Boag: Yeah

Brad: like, 'cause we have to be able
to paint a picture of what could be.

Otherwise, we're all just gonna
be sitting here scared shitless.

So, so it really does take that
optimism and that hope and that,

like, kinda, that looking at the
shining thing on the horizon to

kind of pull us all along, I think.

Paul Boag: But equally you
need the other side of things.

You need the people that are
worried about the consequences.

Otherwise, you know, we end up
you know, all following Elon Musk

on whatever wild dream he has.

You know, and I go, "Oh, yeah, that
looks shiny. I'll follow that." So,

Brad: Yeah,

Paul Boag: all got our part
to play, haven't we really?

Brad: Yeah.

Yep, Well, thank you.

Thanks so much for, for taking the time.

This has been great.

Uh, last question of the whole
show, the only other structured

part of the show is what music do
you want more people to know about?

Paul Boag: So you, you mentioned
this at the beginning before we

started recording and, and I said
I have no musical anything, right?

but I do want to reference, because I
feel it, it's relevant to the conversation

we've just had, which is that, that, um,
old song, Running Against the Wind, right?

"I'm older now and I'm
running against the wind."

And it's a song that is basically
all about getting kind of pushed down

by life and how life overwhelms you.

You start off young and enthusiastic,
and it pushes you down and it,

it grinds you down, but you come
out of the other side of that.

that is where… I
think bear that in mind.

If you're in that pushed down stage,
in that crushed stage, you will come

out the other end, and you'll be
stronger for it, and you'll be running

against the wind again, you know?

So I just love that song.

I love the, the thought of that song.

Brad: Bob, Bob Seger & The
Silver Bullet Band

Paul Boag: Thank you.

I wouldn't have a clue.

See, this is why I'm the worst
person to answer that question.

No idea.

I heard it once, I liked it.

Great.

Brad: Amazing.

that's what I'm listening to, Bob
Seger for the rest of the day.

I love it.

I love it.

Uh, last, last thing is where can people
learn about you, find out about you,

follow along with what you're up to and

Paul Boag: so everything's
on my, my website.

I am, I, I am old, so I still blog.

um, and there's a newsletter
you can sign up to.

I put a lot of stuff out on Instagram,
so my… But my website's a good place to

start, boagworld.com, B-O-A-G world.com

Brad: And that is, that is the, the
that I have seared into my memory,

uh, for as long as I, as I live as, as
being just getting started trying to

figure out how to, how to get into this.

So, so thank you for your many years of,
of contributing to that, to that website.

Paul Boag: Every week since 2005.

So if you wanna know the naive
shit that we believed back in

2005, you can go and find it there.

Brad: Amazing.

Amazing.

Well, thanks so much, Paul.

Uh, yeah, take good care
and, uh, we'll see you soon

Paul Boag: Thank you