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Welcome to The B2B CMO Podcast, a show for marketing executives who are redefining what it means to be a strategic leader. Join Jon Miller and Sydney Sloan every week as they talk with the very best Chief Marketing Officers who are navigating the modern marketing playbook and positioning themselves as strategic leaders.
Each episode, we unpack what it really takes to lead through complexity, earn trust at the strategy table, and shape the future of growth.
We’re building the community, research, and frameworks CMOs need to reclaim their strategic role and drive sustainable growth.
For more marketing leadership resources, visit [b2bcmoproject.com](http://b2bcmoproject.com/).
B2B CMO - 003 - Bryan Law - Full Episode 1.0
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[00:00:00]
Sydney Sloan: [00:00:05] [00:00:10] [00:00:15] [00:00:20] All right, well, welcome [00:00:25] everybody. Today I am so excited to have this guest, uh, [00:00:30] Brian Law. Welcome. Uh, Brian is the Chief Marketing Officer currently at [00:00:35] nerdio. That's a new role. We're gonna talk a little bit about that, which is an all-in-one Microsoft cloud management [00:00:40] platform. But he's previously been, uh, head of marketing, [00:00:45] led marketing at companies like Google, Salesforce.
Sydney Sloan: ZoomInfo, which is where I think we met [00:00:50] at the G two Executive Advisory Board and also at Sentinel One. So we both kind of [00:00:55] tiptoeing in security around the same time just to name a few. Um, just [00:01:00] someone I admire so much is always on the cutting edge and willing to share his ideas. [00:01:05] So for sure he had to be on the podcast.
Sydney Sloan: And the things that I love [00:01:10] about Brian is like how passionate he, he is around building. [00:01:15] Memorable brands and how to turn the brand, [00:01:20] um, visibility into, uh, pipeline creation and having been at ZoomInfo, you [00:01:25] know, having some of the best tools and leading from the front, but also having sure it's [00:01:30] backed by data-driven decision making.
Sydney Sloan: And he's a very early adopter of ai. [00:01:35] He shared a lot of his. Uh, insights and stories and tools, uh, with a CMO club [00:01:40] that I'm part of. Um, so we are going to have a full session today. Welcome Brian to [00:01:45] the show.
Bryan Law: Thank you for, uh, having me and, uh, have to admit I am huge fans of both of [00:01:50] yours, so, uh, I'm very excited to be able to speak with you.
Sydney Sloan: Awesome. Well, it'll be just a, you know, a, [00:01:55] a friend fest. Okay. So we always start out, uh, the show getting to know you a little [00:02:00] bit more. And, um, I liked like who, like what's your [00:02:05] origin story? Who is Brian Law? Where did you come from?
Bryan Law: Um, yeah, so maybe a, [00:02:10] a few different, uh, different things. So, uh, it's now not. [00:02:15] Half my professional career, but almost half of it is outside the us. I'm originally from South Africa, [00:02:20] and so I think a big part of me is having lived in a lot of different countries, I'm fascinated [00:02:25] by people how we think, why we do the things the way that we do, and so that is a big component of [00:02:30] who I am.
Bryan Law: I also love. Data and analytics and [00:02:35] uh, and strategy. And so that was actually the first half of my career was in, uh, sort of the, the [00:02:40] strategy and consulting space. I did it externally. I did it, uh, internally at, at at Google as well. Uh, and [00:02:45] so that's really important to me. And then on sort of the, the, the personal side.
Bryan Law: I love music. I love house [00:02:50] music, I love exercising. I love meditation. Um, and, uh, I think all of those [00:02:55] things. Um, play a role in sort of marketing, coupled with the fact I also really like [00:03:00] neuroscience, uh, and just sort of how to understand how our brains work and how it apply into, uh, into [00:03:05] marketing.
Jon Miller: All right, so, so what's the house? Music to Marketing connection.
Bryan Law: [00:03:10] Um, so I, I, I would say it's more of my, uh, attempt to sort of re release [00:03:15] and, uh, also I, I, I just, I, it gets me to, to where Sydney started, it gets [00:03:20] me really excited, uh, and I think a big part of what you have to do as a marketer, both within your team. [00:03:25] And for your organization is, is, is you have to try and, and, and motivate and pump people up about a particular [00:03:30] direction, particularly if the company is going through a pivot and moving in some, in, into some uncharted [00:03:35] territories.
Bryan Law: And so, uh, I, I, I find that to be my personal motivation, which helps me then hopefully [00:03:40] motivate, uh, others.
Jon Miller: I love it.
Sydney Sloan: So then I can [00:03:45] pivot on this question if you want. I'll ask it in two ways. You get to choose the answer. So [00:03:50] the other question that we like to ask is. If there was a biopic of your life, [00:03:55] what are a couple of scenes that would have to be included in who would play you? But if you wanna [00:04:00] make it a, like a musical or a a a [00:04:05] band or something like that, you could do that too.
Sydney Sloan: Like, if you could like, play out [00:04:10] your, you know, your two parts of your life in a, in a rock show or a house [00:04:15] thing, what, which way, which way do you wanna go? You wanna go movie or you wanna go music?
Bryan Law: [00:04:20] Yeah, so, so it definitely wouldn't be a, a musical. Uh, my mom, uh, reminded me at a very [00:04:25] early age that singing was not one of my, uh, strong, strong suits. So I, I, I don't think it would be [00:04:30] appropriate to have someone singing about my, uh, my background. Um, but, uh, yeah, in [00:04:35] terms of, uh, if I were gonna have an actor play me, not because I in any way, [00:04:40] uh, am represented by him, but he's just a sort of someone I, I, I find amazing as.
Bryan Law: Is Ryan Reynolds, [00:04:45] just 'cause he's a, a charming, funny individual and, and I, I would love to aspire to be, to [00:04:50] be like him, but, but in terms of, um, uh, sort of like what would be a couple of scenes, uh, [00:04:55] I'm trying to think of like what are the things that are most, like, I get the most personal [00:05:00] gratification.
Bryan Law: Out of, and, um, sort of earlier in my career, part of the [00:05:05] consulting I did was in a few different countries that was around sort of like eec economic development work. Um, in [00:05:10] particular, like in Mozambique, uh, where we were doing, uh, work to help like small holder farmers essentially create sort of, [00:05:15] um, sort of sustainable lifestyles.
Bryan Law: And so like that type of, um, [00:05:20] impact was something that I, I just, I feel very humbled to have been a, a part of. And I, I try [00:05:25] and carry that into. Sort of the current state of, of working, of like, how can I always look out for the people on my [00:05:30] team and sort of understand where they're coming from and whatnot.
Bryan Law: So that, that's just something that I've, I've cared a, a bunch [00:05:35] about. And then honestly, uh, like work is very important to me, but, uh, I, I really care a [00:05:40] ton about my, uh, my wife and, and girls. And so being able to sort of lean into, uh, lean into them might be the [00:05:45] second. Second theme, and then if we were gonna be a third one, I'm, I'm cheating.
Bryan Law: Uh, something around sort of like research and sort of, [00:05:50] uh, I, I really love the research I did in undergrad and afterwards around neuroscience and, and, and probably tying [00:05:55] into that would be, uh, would be key. So I don't know why Ryan Reynolds would be the good person
Sydney Sloan: I don't know. I feel like it should be [00:06:00] Robert Redford or something. When you started talking like that, that, that felt a little more,
Bryan Law: more [00:06:05] appropriate,
Sydney Sloan: ish. Yeah. Okay.
Bryan Law: yeah.
Jon Miller: Nice. Well, let's get into some of the meat [00:06:10] here. I mean, obviously the pod key theme of the podcast is helping CMOs navigate [00:06:15] kind of the challenges of what's happening in the world and the perceptions of marketing. Um, I know [00:06:20] you have some really good thoughts on like, what does it. What do you, how do you define what a [00:06:25] strategic CMO looks like and, and their responsibility?
Bryan Law: [00:06:30] Yeah, and I certain, I mean certainly still a lot for me to learn on, on, on this front as well, but like the [00:06:35] way that I always try and think about my role is. First as a business leader and then [00:06:40] secondarily as a marketer. And, and, and in some ways it helps that the first half of my career was not in marketing and I was [00:06:45] spending my time doing corporate strategy work and sort of broader, uh, analytics for organizations.
Bryan Law: Uh, [00:06:50] but as part of that, really trying to bring a data-driven perspective around sort of like [00:06:55] where should we be pursuing the market. Um, something I really love to partner with sales leaders on is. [00:07:00] You know, which of the countries we should be going after, which of the segments we should be pursuing, uh, you know, which of the [00:07:05] partners that are, that are gonna generate the most return for us.
Bryan Law: And, and sort of actively weighing into those like, [00:07:10] broader company decisions around like where we should focus, I think is really key. Uh, [00:07:15] and then sort of with sales and with finance, you know, how are we thinking about the business? What are the growth targets that we have? [00:07:20] How does that translate back certainly into what marketing can do on generating pipeline, on helping [00:07:25] retain customers, but being able to be very fluent in.
Bryan Law: That language, I think [00:07:30] is, is critical. Um, and then from a product perspective, I, I think one of the best ways that marketing can help [00:07:35] is you are the voice of the external, uh, market into the product organization, and you need to [00:07:40] help with the product roadmap. Obviously, John, you, you, you've done that a lot in your, your sort of expansive [00:07:45] roles, but, uh, that's where I'd say I try and grow into as much as I can.
Bryan Law: And, uh, I think [00:07:50] AI is an area where you can actually provide a lot of value in bringing in perspective. And then the last [00:07:55] piece with hr, I mean, they really care about how do you build a company brand? How are you hiring the right people? [00:08:00] How now are we thinking about ai? And so I think it's just how do you, how do, how do I make sure I understand [00:08:05] what are those key priorities for the rest of the leadership team and the company?
Bryan Law: And how do I see where, is there a [00:08:10] unique angle or lens that I can bring to, to help advance those conversations?
Jon Miller: do you think that is a uniquely [00:08:15] marketing challenge to sort of need to sort of manage that level across the [00:08:20] other executive peers, or is that something that you see every CXO [00:08:25] doing reciprocally across their peers?
Bryan Law: [00:08:30] So, something that I would say I appreciate a lot now at Nerdio is that the leadership team [00:08:35] does lean in a lot to each other's space. Uh, but I would say in general, I, I feel like there [00:08:40] is more pressure on CMOs to be relevant across the entire C-suite than, [00:08:45] uh, than is true for other leaders. I mean, not that.
Bryan Law: CFOs aren't wonderful at thinking about [00:08:50] the different components, but I feel like they feel much more comfortable in what their responsibility is and you need to [00:08:55] align with them. Sales is responsible for how do you drive, uh, sort of the, sort of the growth on the [00:09:00] business side. But, uh, yeah, I, I, I don't know whether it's a.
Bryan Law: How do we prove our, our, [00:09:05] our value? And so we need to be able to make this sort of tie-in, in connection or just the fact that practically [00:09:10] marketing should have tie-ins to all those different areas. And so it's a really good way for us to [00:09:15] add the, uh, maximum value when we in fact are looking for those connection points.
Bryan Law: I think probably a little bit of, [00:09:20] a little bit of each.
Sydney Sloan: I I think what I've always, and, and I'm a hundred percent [00:09:25] aligned with Brian on these thoughts like you, you can start strategic by helping shape [00:09:30] what the go-to-market strategy is, um, and that then drives alignment. [00:09:35] Of the C-suite around the strategic initiatives for the company. And if you could be the, the shepherd [00:09:40] or the steward of that, um, that's when I've experienced, I think, the most [00:09:45] impact or feeling the most like part of the strategic equation by bringing the market view [00:09:50] in.
Sydney Sloan: But maybe, um. Share. You know, I think we have a lot of lessons learned. I could [00:09:55] tell you some stories where that did not happen very well. And, you know, maybe as, [00:10:00] as you've gone through your, your career, um, what are some of those lessons [00:10:05] that you have taken forward and as you take on new roles, um, that [00:10:10] have, uh, helped you become or stay more strategic?
Bryan Law: one of the things that, [00:10:15] um, maybe has become more pronounced as I think about new roles is when you [00:10:20] enter a company, really identifying who are the key stakeholders that are gonna make or [00:10:25] break your success, and then how do you win them over, uh, quickly. And, and I would [00:10:30] say always something you sort of think about, but I, I've become more intentional about it.
Bryan Law: And so I, I would [00:10:35] say. You know, for example, at, uh, at ZoomInfo when I, when I came in, I, [00:10:40] I, obviously the CEO very important, uh, but the, the CRO and the CFO, so [00:10:45] with the CFO, inevitably they're trying to be thoughtful about spend. And so the first thing I, I, I tried to do, [00:10:50] uh, with him is I went and looked at.
Bryan Law: How we were spending all of our dollars and, and we weren't optimizing to the bottom of the [00:10:55] funnel. And I was able to come to him and say, uh, hey, you know, I found this is an area where we've [00:11:00] been efficient. I'm gonna give some of this back to the business and then I'm gonna reallocate some of these [00:11:05] dollars in part.
Bryan Law: 'cause I wanted to, to hire some folks, uh, that maybe weren't originally in the plan. [00:11:10] Uh, but that was very valuable. And then on the CRO side, I leveraged my network and helped us introduce [00:11:15] ourselves into new deals and help close some new deals. And, uh, so I was very intentional coming into that [00:11:20] role of like, who were those stakeholders?
Bryan Law: Like, where did I think I could add value in proactively trying to do [00:11:25] that quickly so that I could create a baseline for myself. So that was definitely, uh, I think, I think a learning. [00:11:30] Uh, I think the second one, uh, that I honestly, I still sort of, uh, [00:11:35] sort of work on is, uh, how, how much I want to be [00:11:40] forceful in sort of my opinions and how confident do I want to be in sort of.
Bryan Law: Advocating those across the [00:11:45] broader organization. Uh, because you know, for all of us, as we have more [00:11:50] reps, we become more and more confident and, and sort of sure about, about ourselves, but ultimately [00:11:55] we're getting paid because we need to help drive sort of outcomes. And we're not getting paid to sort of [00:12:00] wonder if we're gonna sort of, uh, chart the right, right direction.
Bryan Law: And so being more opinionated has been [00:12:05] something that I have. Learned, and I've tried to grow into, uh, like I, I have strong opinions. I don't know [00:12:10] that I always advocate them, uh, or advocate for them. And that's been another big learning for me as I've sort of [00:12:15] advanced in my career and, and try to be more successful as a CMO.
Sydney Sloan: just a follow up on that, like, uh, [00:12:20] just a, a very tactical thing and I think, you know, especially as CMOs have shorter tenure years, [00:12:25] we tend to like enter and, and exit faster than others. And, um. [00:12:30] One, one good tip as, uh, that I can offer, um, [00:12:35] is, you know, do, do like a 360, like five months in, I used to say six months, but like [00:12:40] five months in to really with your leadership team to, to figure [00:12:45] out, you know, where are you excelling, where, where are the blind spots and gaps.
Sydney Sloan: Like I, I've [00:12:50] caught myself multiple times, not developing. Enough of a relationship [00:12:55] and it's time, right? Like especially as we work remotely and you're focused on what you're [00:13:00] trying to do, of course you're gonna have a relationship with the head of sales and, and, um, and product. [00:13:05] But, you know, are you spending time with the head of HR and strategizing organ, you know, brand design or [00:13:10] your organizational structure, lesson learned, you know?
Sydney Sloan: So I think those are, uh, great, [00:13:15] um, great tips.
Bryan Law: So like, getting up to speed quickly is really, really [00:13:20] important. Um, and I certainly haven't mastered, but some of the things that I do, uh, related to the, [00:13:25] to comment, sitting on getting feedback. Is, uh, now my last couple of companies, literally the first day [00:13:30] I've sent a survey, I, I've met my team and sent a survey out to the entire team, the anonymous survey of like, what's working, [00:13:35] what's not working, what would they recommend that I do?
Bryan Law: Coming on board, I try and meet with as many of them as I can, [00:13:40] one-on-one. Obviously the size view, marketing team limits that if there's call recordings, I try to go through and, uh, [00:13:45] listen to those. I always ask who are the top sellers? And I try and get one-on-ones with them. Um, [00:13:50] now the past few companies I've used sort of synthetic AI research to help me get a market back view [00:13:55] and talk to some analysts.
Bryan Law: But I think the, the faster you can ramp and sort of show credibility [00:14:00] and be then responsive to sort of the ideas that your teams have, um, the better off you are. [00:14:05] And then practically, I found your marketing team generally knows what they should be doing. They just aren't always getting [00:14:10] listened to and those ideas aren't being surfaced up and sort of pulled together and prioritized effectively.
Bryan Law: Um, [00:14:15] and so I think that's been a big learning for me is how one, very quickly to synthesize what they think. And [00:14:20] then play back to them all of the things that I've heard across those different stakeholders and get their [00:14:25] buy-in to the direction before I then go and take it to sort of my boss and say, Hey, this is what I want to [00:14:30] do.
Bryan Law: 'cause then it's not, I need to, you know, talk to the CEO O and then convince my team that this is the direction I already [00:14:35] understand what they want to do. And I can then hopefully then like, build upon it. And so they're already [00:14:40] bought in before I've, I've had to make the case.
Bryan Law: Um, and I say that been helpful.
Sydney Sloan: [00:14:45] Uh, Kim Storn just shared something. Uh, she's the CMO over at Zoom and she, she [00:14:50] shared that she talked to 50 customers before she started, and that was the one [00:14:55] credibility point that she just nailed on when she came in. And it was like, nobody could [00:15:00] argue with that. And I thought that was
Bryan Law: Yeah, that's a very to add, add to that list. Yeah. Sorry. Okay. John, your
Sydney Sloan: [00:15:05] turn. this is, this is just such a fascinating discussion because you know, in, in implied in [00:15:10] the question I asked a little bit earlier, I, I, I do think that there is a asymmetric burden on [00:15:15] the CMO to prove credibility and respect. That doesn't necessarily [00:15:20] apply in other departments, partly 'cause every other department thinks they get to have an opinion about marketing.[00:15:25]
Jon Miller: And so the more that we can come up to speed quickly and have that credibility, [00:15:30] uh, the better. So just. Definitely agreeing with what you're saying and I like how you [00:15:35] frame it. What I wanna do is like, move this conversation into the direction [00:15:40] of your expertise around neuroscience, um, and, and how we can take [00:15:45] lessons from that in the world of strategic CMOs.
Jon Miller: So [00:15:50] like mental availability is such an important concept. Like, like. [00:15:55] Tell us, like why do you see that that's so important for building buy-in [00:16:00] amongst the C-suite? Uh, to invest in marketing and, and [00:16:05] believing in marketing.
Bryan Law: Yeah. And, and, and a few, a few thoughts there. Um, [00:16:10] in, in the, the, the first one, uh, I think I'm, I'm thinking about a slide that, uh, LinkedIn's [00:16:15] B2B Institute shared, but, uh, it, it. FRA frames the way that I, I think about marketing, which is, [00:16:20] uh, if you think of two, two axes. So either you are, uh, right or you're wrong in the decisions that [00:16:25] you make, and the second one is you are either doing what everyone else is doing or you're being contrarian.[00:16:30]
Bryan Law: If you're wrong, it doesn't matter if you're right and you're doing what everyone else is doing, it doesn't really matter. It's [00:16:35] when you're right and you're not, you're doing things that others are not doing, that you have a chance to stand out. Um, and, [00:16:40] and sort of within that framing, uh, for whatever reason in the B2B space, we're [00:16:45] not leveraging a lot of the lessons that ha are have are more commonplace in, in, in B2C, which is.[00:16:50]
Bryan Law: Really understanding how you influence people's behavior, uh, and uh, neuroscience I [00:16:55] think is a really great way to do that. The Berg Bass Institute, I really appreciate, I've been corporate sponsors of them a [00:17:00] couple of times. They are the, I believe, the largest marketing research institute in the world.
Bryan Law: And I have a couple hundred [00:17:05] PhDs that literally just study how our brains relate to sort of marketing. Uh, in [00:17:10] this concept of mental availability is a really core one, which is. If you [00:17:15] sort of believe the research, which I do, that the best way to influence outcomes is understand first, what are [00:17:20] the buying situations?
Bryan Law: So what are essentially the things that kick off or trigger us thinking about our [00:17:25] category. Secondly, when you then have those triggers, what are the [00:17:30] associations that, uh, that happen on our brain? And if you think of our brain as sort of a map of nodes and each of them [00:17:35] as a memory, and those memories have connections to other memories of different strengths, you need to figure out what are the [00:17:40] buying situations?
Bryan Law: What are those memories that get triggered? And then how does your brain [00:17:45] attach into that sort of network of nodes? Um, and if you can figure that out and there are ways [00:17:50] to do that, it makes it really, really easy to understand. Wow, I, uh, I'm known for [00:17:55] this and it's something that the market cares about or someone else is known for this and it's something else the market [00:18:00] cares about.
Bryan Law: So I'm probably not gonna have as much opportunity to try and overcome them. [00:18:05] But wow, there's all these areas that in buying situations, people think about these three things and [00:18:10] no brand is talking to them. It's a really easy way to then make that connection and say, oh, wow, I should put [00:18:15] marketing messages around those topics.
Bryan Law: Uh, and so I've found it to be a really effective way [00:18:20] to. Quickly change perception in the market, um, in terms of like what you [00:18:25] accidentally can do, but in terms of building credibility with your C-Suite, um, I would. [00:18:30] Suggest 'cause I have not yet come across a C-suite that spends their time thinking about things this way.
Bryan Law: It's a [00:18:35] really easy way to add value and get people thinking about marketing in a much more data-driven [00:18:40] scientific way, which is both helpful for outcomes, but it also is helpful for giving you credibility [00:18:45] because they're like, wow, this person is driven by a very scientific approach towards [00:18:50] changing perception and building brands.
Bryan Law: Uh, that I think makes it much easier to, to drive growth. And then the [00:18:55] last thing I will say, and this has definitely been a learning for me. Is now in the interview process. I don't [00:19:00] shy away from the fact I have a very, uh, strong view around how this should [00:19:05] work, uh, because if, if they're not gonna buy into it, we should all just be on the same page about it right [00:19:10] away.
Bryan Law: But it's also helped me in the interview process by showing that I do have a very strong point of view that I [00:19:15] can bring in. And, and coming here at Nerdio, uh, one, it, it landed in the interview process, [00:19:20] but within my first two weeks, I did a whole session with the ELT around. Neuroscience and marketing [00:19:25] and what were all the things that we should be doing and rolling out.
Bryan Law: And it was really, it was really [00:19:30] enjoyable. One, to see everyone's sort of interest, uh, in the topic, but also the willingness to try out and do [00:19:35] some things differently. And we in fact, are moving forward on almost all the areas that, that I suggested in the, in [00:19:40] that, um, space, which is again, I think a nice thing about being at a company where people are open-minded.
Bryan Law: Um, [00:19:45] John, did that answer your
Jon Miller: Yeah. Although I'd love to pull the thread just a, just a sec longer 'cause like, [00:19:50] okay, so I'm listening to you. I'm now the CMO at a new company. I wanna do that. Like what? [00:19:55] What tip can you sort of give to somebody for how to
Bryan Law: Yeah. How to make it work.
Jon Miller: that magic [00:20:00] without necessarily all your experience?
Bryan Law: Yeah. Well, and so, uh, it, it used to be, [00:20:05] so back when I first started thinking about this space and was relying on the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute, they had a [00:20:10] lot of great theory and they didn't have like a lot of practical application. And so I remember the first time I did a, a, I [00:20:15] found someone who did research and brain density.
Bryan Law: Uh, studies. And so I was like, Hey, can we tailor what you're doing [00:20:20] to how I'm thinking about it? And, you know, reach out to a bunch of, at, at the time chief Data officers, [00:20:25] uh, and then started to, um, iterate over time. Now you can do a lot of it through [00:20:30] synthetic ai. Um, and so not meaning this is a, is a sort of a pitch for a company, but I've found evidence that it'd be the [00:20:35] best ones at, uh, at this.
Bryan Law: And, and I've now done it at the past three companies. And it [00:20:40] works really well. So synthetic ai, what does that mean? So rather than going and saying, I want to talk to a bunch of [00:20:45] actual C CIOs, I need to figure out who they are. I need to pay them a thousand dollars each. 'cause otherwise they're not [00:20:50] gonna take the survey.
Bryan Law: Um, we can use AI to say, this is the audience that I want to talk to. And [00:20:55] it actually really effectively replicates, um, that, uh, that experience of, of talking [00:21:00] to folks. And the nice thing is you can talk to 'em individually, you can talk to 'em as groups, you can ask 'em following questions and [00:21:05] um, I would imagine some people in the audience might think. That's not gonna actually [00:21:10] work. Uh, but to give you some real examples of how effective it has been. So one of [00:21:15] the companies that I did it, uh, I, I took the, the output to the, the CEO and he said, oh, [00:21:20] this makes sense, this makes sense, this makes sense, but this one completely wrong. Not valid at [00:21:25] all. Almost.
Bryan Law: I'm gonna write off this whole process because it's so wrong. Uh, and I went to the CRO [00:21:30] and said, Hey. What are your thoughts about this particular sort of buying situation? And he said, you know what? This is actually becoming one of the [00:21:35] biggest drivers for new conversations that we're having. And so the CEO of the company who had [00:21:40] been there for a long time was.
Bryan Law: Missed something that the synthetic research had [00:21:45] found. Uh, sort of another example is, uh, we did a sort of a traditional messaging [00:21:50] framework, um, uh, motion one that the product marketing team, the other one that I did based on [00:21:55] synthetic research. Uh, and then I took both to our CEO, our CRO, our chief product and [00:22:00] technology officer.
Bryan Law: And they vastly preferred the one that came outta synthetic research. Um, and [00:22:05] so I think there is a lot of real credibility in terms of how it works. Again, I do think evidence is the [00:22:10] best one, uh, sort of in the space right now doing it. And even if you weren't gonna do it as a [00:22:15] way to, uh, sort of drive your messaging framework, it's a really good way to get up to speed.
Bryan Law: Um, [00:22:20] and I, I, it just, it really helped me even here for, for Nerdio to understand the buying situations. [00:22:25] We, we did it, I surfaced them. The leadership team, we actually reviewed it last week, [00:22:30] agreed with all the buying situations that they came up with, and they're like, oh wow, this is actually really fascinating.
Bryan Law: [00:22:35] Uh, we're not leaning into these as much. Uh, and so I would recommend doing that. Secondarily, you could try and do it through [00:22:40] LLMs, so like, whether it's Cloud, cloud or Gemini Chat, GBTI have not found 'em to be as precise [00:22:45] though. Um, they can't give you the perspective of where you stand is much relative to competitors, sort of the detailed insights.[00:22:50]
Bryan Law: But it that, that, that is a directional way to get there. I would just, I, I would say it's worth the extra money to, [00:22:55] to invest in a company like evidence.
Jon Miller: Yeah.
Jon Miller: I, I've got the quick and dirty version of, of, as [00:23:00] you said, myself, where, you know, I have recordings of 200 calls with potential [00:23:05] customers, which I created, had AI create a synthetic panel based on that, which I can ask [00:23:10] questions to. So it's, it's useful, probably not as useful, but, but there is the, [00:23:15] the, the cheaper version out there.
Bryan Law: To get there. Yeah. To get there as well. Yeah. And, and I mean, I, I [00:23:20] think anything that directionally moves you, uh, towards better understanding your, your customers is really [00:23:25] valuable. Whether it's listening to all your, your, your, you know, gong chorus calls and running them through ai, [00:23:30] uh, trying to use analysts as a sort of a, a sort of a, an effective voice.
Bryan Law: 'cause they talk to tons of [00:23:35] customers. Uh, but I do think that, um, yeah, it's, it's a really, really powerful way, particularly when [00:23:40] it's framed in the context of what are the core buying situations. In those buying situations, what are [00:23:45] the associations the people have, the thoughts, the feelings, the emotions.
Bryan Law: Um, and, and [00:23:50] just a bit of an aside on that one, there is so much research out there that shows the way that our brains actually [00:23:55] work is that e emotion is equally, if not more important than sort of rational thinking [00:24:00] to making, uh, decision making. Um, uh, the, the DiMio, uh, [00:24:05] is a, is a, a, a PhD in sort of neuroscience who found that actually when you have the part of your [00:24:10] brain damaged, that's responsible for emotional processing, you actually can't make a decision.
Bryan Law: And so you need [00:24:15] to make sure that you're speaking to both the emotional and the rational side of people's brains. And sometimes it's easier [00:24:20] to get that emotional lens when you're doing it through, uh, synthetic research versus like asking [00:24:25] someone, although it is worth also asking them too about. Do certain things make you afraid or, or excited or, you know, [00:24:30] what's the emotional underpinning behind the decisions you're making?
Sydney Sloan: So I think that the TDLR here is [00:24:35] as we think about our, like how we build our personas. Um, and, you know, [00:24:40] we definitely have taken them to the next level with the use of, of ai. Now, right. They're [00:24:45] not just a static, you know, slide that somebody worked on because they [00:24:50] had to, or you know, it was a project that stopped because we know we can embed it into the AI [00:24:55] workflows.
Sydney Sloan: It can continue to learn, it can validate messaging. But [00:25:00] what I took away from what you were saying is. How do we go deeper into [00:25:05] the emotional connection, the thoughts, the feelings, and I've been an advocate [00:25:10] for as we move into this world of a EO, like yes, we need to [00:25:15] create content that's going to serve the LLMs and understand the questions and [00:25:20] answers and natural language, which is all great.
Sydney Sloan: To build your brand has to be outside of those [00:25:25] questions. You have to be answering other things that your, your buyers, your [00:25:30] customers care about. And I think this is an excellent way to like, dive into what are those other [00:25:35] challenges. Um, have you, as you've come into Nerdio and, and I know you're an [00:25:40] early adopter of ai. Um, how have you approached, [00:25:45] you know, the, where the team is at, um, inter like what the [00:25:50] opportunity is and maybe two or three use cases that, um, that have you've [00:25:55] already started to implement, um, with your teams?
Bryan Law: Yeah. Um, [00:26:00] uh, so something that's, uh, been actually a really fun sort of learning [00:26:05] opportunity for me. 'cause I, I, I'd like to think I use AI pretty effectively and, uh, there's just an incredible amount of [00:26:10] excitement and our, our CEO honestly is just a very. Very intelligent [00:26:15] individual and has been using cloud code in particular to automate so many things that we do.
Bryan Law: It's, it's [00:26:20] been a learning opportunity for me in addition to bringing stuff stuff in. So, um, I mean, a few different areas. So one, [00:26:25] obviously I mentioned trying to get the sort of customer back, um, perspe perspective and, and using [00:26:30] sort of evidence as one of the ways to get that, uh, get that done. Uh, we've also been using it [00:26:35] relative to sort of, we use Gong here, um, to try and synthesize all of the, the inputs at [00:26:40] scale and try and provide perspective.
Bryan Law: Uh, something that, uh. I guess [00:26:45] I'll say, uh, is, uh, we're also trying to figure out how to, um, really sort of [00:26:50] extend our so social reach. Uh, and so one of the, the things that we've actually been going through and [00:26:55] doing is figuring out who are sort of the key, um, advocates, uh, within our. [00:27:00] Company as well as our broader, um, ecosystem, uh, creating personas [00:27:05] for each of them based on how they, uh, tend to write on, on LinkedIn, uh, and then actually [00:27:10] generating at scale sort of content for people to be able to to, to release at the same time.
Bryan Law: [00:27:15] Um, I think one of the cool things now that you can do with, uh, LLMs, and again, we just happen to use Claude, [00:27:20] is um, you can go through and, uh, have it act. [00:27:25] Acts like you on your desktop. And so it can allow it, uh, to go and sort of [00:27:30] actually do some of the research that maybe you couldn't do in the past with sort of like scraping capabilities.
Bryan Law: [00:27:35] Um, so I think social has been another way of like, how do we sort of expand our creation of content, uh, get more things that are [00:27:40] going out, uh, effectively I think everyone talks about how do you just scale, create content, uh, which I think is. [00:27:45] Uh, is, is valuable, uh, the sort of [00:27:50] underlying guts of how we, uh, operate.
Bryan Law: So we've been trying to pull as much data as we can together, [00:27:55] uh, across all of the traditional Go-To-Market systems, our product usage, whatnot. Uh, and I think there's a lot of [00:28:00] opportunity for AI to help with bringing together, uh, normalizing. So essentially [00:28:05] like matching data and cleaning data, and then using it to actually tell sellers or [00:28:10] SDRs like, Hey, do this, do that.
Bryan Law: This is the 10 things you should do today. And so we've been, [00:28:15] um, sort of, it's currently under, under works, but we've been making a lot of progress on [00:28:20] being, um, uh, more clear with our sellers around like, what are [00:28:25] the activities they should do, which of the accounts they should go after These, this, you need to follow up and you need to take.[00:28:30]
Bryan Law: Uh, this action around sort of scheduling a new meeting or following up with this incremental person. [00:28:35] And I would say we're starting to see a lot of success on that front based on some things I've done, I've done elsewhere. Um, [00:28:40] I dunno, it's almost like, what, what can you not do, uh, to simplify for ai? I think the, the [00:28:45] biggest, the biggest thing for me is how do you make all of your team members better, [00:28:50] stronger, faster?
Bryan Law: Uh, not how do you replace them, but how do you just make everyone, [00:28:55] uh, you know, superhuman, for lack of a better, better word.
Jon Miller: Cool. I [00:29:00] wanna, I wanna move on to metrics and talk a little bit about, um, [00:29:05] back to this definite strategic CMO 'cause I loved how you answered it. It's different [00:29:10] how some other CMOs answer it, which is usually like, well you gotta have the metrics, you gotta, you gotta [00:29:15] prove your impact and everything and you didn't go there.
Jon Miller: So like what do you [00:29:20] think is the modern CMO scorecard? You know, if it's not MQ ls, you know, what [00:29:25] keeps the CMO confident, you know, to, to keep investing in that [00:29:30] brand compounding.
Bryan Law: Yeah, well, and so certainly something that I've tried to advocate for [00:29:35] it at, um, previous, uh, companies, and it's been great to see the receptivity here is. [00:29:40] Uh, knowing that I need to be aligned with our CRO in, in generating, [00:29:45] um, whether it's sort of a CV or ARR, what, whatever the revenue sort of metric is that, that a company's [00:29:50] gonna use.
Bryan Law: Um, I see myself as responsible for the overall pipeline for the company, [00:29:55] not just what marketing sources. And the reason for that, so something that I did at my last company is we [00:30:00] looked at all of the opportunities, all the pipeline that was created, and not surprisingly, we found [00:30:05] that. Uh, the different channels.
Bryan Law: So sales, you know, something, sales source, SDR source, marketing source [00:30:10] channel sourced, uh, most opportunities have multiple touchpoints, uh, associated [00:30:15] with them. Uh, and what we found was that, um, you know, marketing may get credit for a third [00:30:20] of them, but marketing actually was involved in 85%. But importantly, uh, when [00:30:25] multiple sources are invol involved in pipeline before it opens, uh, it actually leads to faster [00:30:30] closing, higher close rates. And so I'd say that's a really big important area for me is how do I think holistically about the pipeline [00:30:35] we're creating? And then secondly, how am I working with sales to improve, improve our close rates? So once something is in [00:30:40] pipeline, how are we expanding the buying committee?
Bryan Law: How are we making sure that we are sort of getting them to small [00:30:45] group events? And so a lot of it is around like overall pipeline creation and close, but then from a brand [00:30:50] perspective. Uh, I do think it's really important to figure out ways to try and show, [00:30:55] uh, measurable like pipeline or revenue related, um, outcomes.
Bryan Law: And so [00:31:00] something that I did at a previous company when we were trying to make a case for the brand campaign the first time is we [00:31:05] used a few platforms. Uh. LinkedIn stack and APT to actually show, hey, when [00:31:10] our audience is being exposed to brand, they are more likely to convert on demand. [00:31:15] Uh, and so, uh, and, and it was very clear not only that it improved the conversion rates [00:31:20] on demand, but the overall spend was more efficient when you did those things together.
Bryan Law: [00:31:25] Uh, and you can do that by either doing sort of, um, you know, holdout groups. And you know, [00:31:30] specifically targeting some subset with brand and not others, and seeing if the account moves farther forward. [00:31:35] Or you can do it down at the individual level and saying, Hey, when an individual is getting exposed to both, how do you do it?[00:31:40]
Bryan Law: And so I think there's, yeah, you need to measure all the way through. Definitely don't wanna give the impression that metrics are not [00:31:45] important. I'd say that's the lifeblood of how I think about marketing. Uh, but it's how do you make those metrics relevant? [00:31:50] Because I don't think the average person cares about the MQL that you're creating.
Bryan Law: It's how are you generating business? How are [00:31:55] you moving things faster forward? How can you prove that if marketing is gonna do something with an opportunity that's open, [00:32:00] that you are gonna actually influence the co close rates relative to other accounts that are out there? And, and I think it's [00:32:05] that type of data that ends up being most impactful.
Sydney Sloan: Have you also like in this, in [00:32:10] this new world where we're, you know, the buyer has moved over to the LLMs [00:32:15] and the old, you know, PPC pay for your lead model. As being [00:32:20] constrained, what? What shifts have you started to make as you think about how you're gonna [00:32:25] be investing the money?
Bryan Law: Yeah, so, um, certainly [00:32:30] first you need to have visibility into, you know, what is being searched in LLMs. And [00:32:35] so, you know, there are different tools that are, um, out there, uh, you know. Uh, [00:32:40] profound, uh, has one, Meltwater has one, uh, GrowthX, uh, or, um, [00:32:45] have them, and sort of getting that visibility, I think is, is, is, is really, really key.
Bryan Law: Uh, and then as part of that, you [00:32:50] need to create a lot of content that speaks effectively to that. And so, um, you know, whether you want to do that, [00:32:55] uh, internally, I know Samsara has sort of created a pretty cool process around that. Uh, [00:33:00] we, we lean into leveraging GrowthX to help us build content at scale. I used 'em on my last company.
Bryan Law: We're just starting [00:33:05] to onboard them here. Um, but I think as we all know. If someone is searching in LLMs and they come to your [00:33:10] website, they converted a significantly higher rate. It varies company to company. And so that has been a [00:33:15] really important source for us because, uh, whether it is coming from organic search or um, or it's [00:33:20] coming through an A-E-O-G-E-O, um, source, that still tends to be a really, [00:33:25] really valuable, important, um, uh, way to get sort of deal velocity.[00:33:30]
Bryan Law: But it's also just practically how people are learning. And as I think, as we all know, people are spending more and more [00:33:35] time learning before they talk to you. And so you just need to make sure your thought leadership is out there. Um, so I'd [00:33:40] say yeah, visibility and understanding of what people care about, generating content that is, uh, [00:33:45] effectively is gonna show up in the LLMs.
Bryan Law: And then I think something that, um, is really great about this push [00:33:50] on a EO and GE. Forcing us as marketers to do something that we should have done a long, long time ago if we [00:33:55] weren't, which is think holistically about what you're doing from a pr comms perspective. What you're doing from a [00:34:00] social perspective, um, how you're getting your reviews, um, to, to show up.
Bryan Law: Like what are those key, [00:34:05] you know, messaging, uh, uh, pillars or narratives, and how do those all [00:34:10] align together to make sure you're standing out in the market in a consistent way. Um, and,
Sydney Sloan: Plus [00:34:15] one to that, that's, uh, a hundred percent. I'm like, it's not a single person's job. Like I think we [00:34:20] thought SEO was a single person's job, or PPC was a single person's job. Like this is a [00:34:25] team effort across all the different, you know, surfaces and [00:34:30] experiences that people are going to engage with your influencers and, and all of it.
Sydney Sloan: And so I think it does [00:34:35] fundamentally change and the messaging has to change also for the better. Because it has to be in [00:34:40] the voice, uh, that the customer would use. And you know, not the marketing speak that we [00:34:45] kind of settled on for so long. So I love that too.
Bryan Law: Totally, totally agree. [00:34:50] One thing, And Sydnee you mentioned it a couple of times or alluded to it.
Bryan Law: I, I strongly believe [00:34:55] that being consistently distinctive is way more important than being, uh, [00:35:00] differentiated. And so what that means is standing out is more important than. [00:35:05] Being different from someone, someone else. And so I think tied into your, your question around [00:35:10] A-E-O-G-E-O, how do we sort of grow our brands?
Bryan Law: That is a really important thing, is figuring out [00:35:15] how are you going to be known in the market so that when people think about things, they think about you, and then it's the [00:35:20] job once they're in the market to actually help explain why they should choose you. Um, and uh, yeah, [00:35:25] it just
Sydney Sloan: And I don't think you can rely on AI for that. I mean, I think that this is the [00:35:30] other part that gets me excited about the, the state we're in right now is we actually get to [00:35:35] be cre. Creative again, we, we actually get to curate our brands and figure [00:35:40] out what does make us stand out and, you know, hopefully convince [00:35:45] that, you know, the finance team that it's worth investing in.
Sydney Sloan: I mean, there's lots of ways to do it, you know, but, but [00:35:50] I a hundred percent believe in that and, and that gets me excited again. It's like we're just not, [00:35:55] you know, technical people writing AI code and, you know, managing pipe gen [00:36:00] machines. Like we, we actually are brand builders. We're customer advocates. [00:36:05] Um, so that's, uh, um, you know, the fun part of the job that we have to [00:36:10] remember, our part of our job is creative and fun.
Sydney Sloan: Um. [00:36:15] Yes. Uh, so, um, uh, the last thing that, uh, that we like is, uh, the [00:36:20] opportunity to share gratitude. Um, so, you know, we, we don't get to [00:36:25] where you, we are, you didn't get to where you were alone and, and I'm sure you had a lot of [00:36:30] mentors and, and supporters along the way. So, would you like to give a [00:36:35] shout out or two to, to people that have helped you on your journey
Bryan Law: Oh yeah, there's, there's [00:36:40] so, so many people. Um, so may maybe, um, uh, so, uh, [00:36:45] Taylor Rhodes, he was the CEO at Rackspace. Uh, so I had, before I [00:36:50] got into marketing, I had only done strategy and analytics roles. I came in as a chief of [00:36:55] staff to him and he was the one who saw the opportunity for me to go into, into marketing and, and sort of led [00:37:00] me sort of down this path.
Bryan Law: And when he first mentioned it, honestly, I said, Taylor, that's not what I [00:37:05] wanna do. I want to be a, a, a business owner and, and run a p and l. And he said, I think you'd be really good in the [00:37:10] marketing space. So yeah, really appreciate, uh, him for that. And also, um. Always saying [00:37:15] feedback is a gift. Before he told me I was doing something wrong and really highlighted that, that it is important.
Bryan Law: And then, [00:37:20] uh, Jackie Ney, she was the CMO at, uh, at Tableau and, and actually really helped me while I was [00:37:25] reporting into her, uh, develop myself in ways that enabled me to take my first CMO gig. Uh, and so [00:37:30] I'm, I'm, uh, forever grateful for, uh, the sort of the coaching she provided. [00:37:35] Again, that's stuff, and there's so many, so many others, but, uh, like I, I, I feel like I've just gained so much from [00:37:40] being surrounded by really, really smart, capable, uh, inspirational people.
Sydney Sloan: That's amazing. [00:37:45] Well, Brian, this 30, 40 minutes went ex so fast. [00:37:50] Um, but I did wanna share a couple of takeaways that, um, that I hope [00:37:55] people also, um, listened in. And the first is. You know, I think you're one of the [00:38:00] most strategic marketers out there, so understanding your background in data and consulting and then [00:38:05] applying that to marketing now makes sense to me.
Sydney Sloan: Those connected the dots, but, but really where you leaned [00:38:10] in is starting with deeply understanding the customer and how they think, and that [00:38:15] is not something we hear that often. The second thing that I took away from our [00:38:20] conversation was the importance of relationship building and how to make those quick connections, [00:38:25] understand people's motivations, especially within your peer group.
Sydney Sloan: Um, and don't forget, [00:38:30] like everybody has a role in marketing partners with everyone. So to ensure that you're building [00:38:35] those relationships from the start to to get that strategic alignment, I think when there is, [00:38:40] uh, alignment in the C-suite, it makes everybody else's job easier. And [00:38:45] then lastly is just being data-driven.
Sydney Sloan: And I heard it from the [00:38:50] very beginning when you talked about how do we analyze. And drive strategic Go-To-Market. [00:38:55] How do you audit your pipeline? Um, and then brand validation and [00:39:00] using that as a way to ensure that the company is investing in [00:39:05] brand and showcasing what a great. Distinctive brand, I think is the right word, right, [00:39:10] um, uh, can do for a company.
Sydney Sloan: So this has been an amazing, I'm so [00:39:15] glad you said yes to us, um, and shared all these, uh, learnings from your [00:39:20] journey. And I know we're gonna continue to watch you, uh, continue to be a strategic CMO. So [00:39:25] congratulations, John. Any final thoughts from you?
Jon Miller: Brian, thank you so much.
Bryan Law: [00:39:30] Well thank, thank you both. It was great spending time with you.
Sydney Sloan: yeah. Have a great [00:39:35] day, everyone.
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