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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over:
Speaker 2:Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what
Speaker 3:we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care
Speaker 2:for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Hi. Oh my goodness. Hi. Hi. It's really you.
Speaker 1:It's really you.
Speaker 4:I can't believe it.
Speaker 1:It's been like twenty years, man.
Speaker 4:Oh my goodness. I cannot believe it's you. I can't believe you found us. I can't believe I'm talking to you, and I can't believe you're like sure I'll be on the podcast. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean I don't know what I can contribute but I'll
Speaker 4:You're a good sport. You've always been a good sport though. I miss you with all my heart. That's wild.
Speaker 1:I miss you too. I thought you were crazy.
Speaker 4:Okay. So oh my goodness. So if there's anything that you wanna say that or that I have to say that I'm not comfortable with or change my mind, I can edit it out. So that's easy.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:If there's anything you're not comfortable with, just say pass or Okay. Tell me after if you change your mind and we can edit out because I want you to be safe and comfortable, seriously.
Speaker 1:Right. Right. That's fair. Yeah. I got it.
Speaker 4:And because we will mention the school that shall not be named, you don't even have to save your you don't even have to say your name or anything like that.
Speaker 1:Okay. Yeah. That's good.
Speaker 4:Oh my goodness. I can't believe I can see you. I'm still just
Speaker 1:I know. That's really crazy.
Speaker 4:Okay. So let's start there. Did you even find me?
Speaker 1:So I I was, you know, I've looked on Facebook, but I figured I'd never find you there. Right? And so I was just like, I wonder if there's somewhere else, like, you know, a professional profile. I knew you had gotten into therapy. So I thought, Well, maybe I can find her, like, that way.
Speaker 1:But I was like, I don't even know if she has the same name. So I went with the last name I knew that you had. And I actually, I looked at it later after we talked about it more, and there was a that was like more just stuff about you from some other I'll have to send it to you because I'm not sure it was always it was I'll send that to you so you can look at it so you can see where it is. But it was a good thing for me because it had all links to your podcasts and things on there. So I was able to find you.
Speaker 1:And I didn't really read that until later, I was like, Oh, it's not really a positive. It's just it's kind of like a it's some kind of I don't know. I'm trying to like, some kind of organization that they're like, oh, look out for this person kind of. But, like, I didn't see that until the end. Do you know what they are?
Speaker 1:It is
Speaker 4:this under, like, a new name. Yeah. That they are targeting therapy. Yes.
Speaker 1:That was it. And so that's where I actually found, and it had links to your podcast, links to your, like, your book and some information. And that's all I saw at first. And I was like, Oh, look. There, I found her.
Speaker 1:And then when I went back and looked for it again, because I was like, Where is this that I found? So I can at least tell her where I found it. And then, I looked I actually read the whole thing, and then I was like, Oh, that maybe she needs to know about. So I was like, I just was looking at that more. So, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But I'm glad it was up there because otherwise I wouldn't have found you.
Speaker 4:-I'm excited that something positive came out of me getting doxxed.
Speaker 1:-Right? I mean, you know, at least Because probably, who else is gonna even see it? I don't even know, like, what, like, it was The only reason I found this is because I looked up your name. And it's weird because, like, I I don't even know. Like, I just put it in Google.
Speaker 1:Like, right? Like, Emily talked Like, and it came up with that. I was just excited. I clicked on the podcast, I listened to it. I was like, That definitely hurt.
Speaker 1:And then I found on your page the picture. I was like, Oh, my gosh. Like And I got goosebumps. And I was like, Okay. Well, this is a pseudonym.
Speaker 1:Maybe she has that one on Facebook. And I was like, there's no way. And then I saw it and I was like, okay, it doesn't look like she uses this at all. So I'm gonna friend request it, but I'm not gonna hear anything. But at least I know she's okay and she's doing well.
Speaker 1:That, you know, that's good. So we're there.
Speaker 4:That's so funny. And then
Speaker 1:you messaged me and I was like, oh my god. So
Speaker 4:crazy. Was like, is
Speaker 1:this really you?
Speaker 4:Because I've just been doxxed. And so all these people, weirdos are coming out and causing all kinds of problems and their mental safety issues. But I'm like, no. I've worked so hard for my own voice. I'm not going to be afraid.
Speaker 4:So here I am. Well, that's not true. I was afraid at first.
Speaker 1:I was gonna say, once I once I realized what that site was, when I looked at it again, I was, like, a little bit scared about it. I was like, oh, this isn't good. I wish this wasn't here, but, like, I wouldn't have found you if it wasn't. So, like, it's kinda, like, weird. But you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. But I you know?
Speaker 4:It's they they pick it therapists who help survivors with DID.
Speaker 1:Got you. It's awful. Sense. Yeah.
Speaker 4:So do you want to catch up to the present first, or do you want to tell our story of school?
Speaker 1:What's funny is actually I have just now, in therapy, started, which is part of what led me to think about it and like, start, you know, and I saw that car, and it made me think of you. And like, my brain is my brain is ready to deal with stuff from school now because I'm actually going through stuff in therapy about school. Like, this was a negative experience for me, and I Like, I haven't talked about it. I'll see you someday. I'll be like, Oh, yeah, I went to school there.
Speaker 1:But, I don't It's like I shut that whole period of my life out, and I never talked about it. And I've just started going through it. So it's good timing for me because I feel like I'm I'm ready to to deal with that. So, yeah, whatever whatever you feel like.
Speaker 4:I think that there are so many people who have had some kind of version of religious trauma besides the specific stuff you and I went through that it's just it's horrific. It's horrific. So I need to give some backstory a little bit because people listening can't see you or know who you are. So Right. You and I actually went to college together, like undergrad, straight out of high school, college running through the halls like crazy girls.
Speaker 4:Oh, I'm trying not to say crazy. I'm sorry. It's so offensive.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's we we were very silly. That, like it's so funny, though, because I look back, and I'm like, Did that really Did I really do that stuff? Like, I don't remember. I feel like it You know, like I guess with suppressing the bad memories, I suppressed some of the good ones, too. So it's kind of fun to remember what we were like back then.
Speaker 1:We were fun. We were a lot of fun. Yeah. That's
Speaker 4:so funny. So what even even without me starting, what what do you remember about what happened, or where would you even start our story?
Speaker 1:So, I mean, I guess the first thing I remember is, like, it was, like, my first or second week of school. You were a year ahead of me, if I remember right. And I needed some help because I have ADD. So, yeah, not neurotypical here either. I just, was struggling with studying and stuff.
Speaker 1:And I remember somebody tell, like, like I feel like I met you through ASL, which was awesome. And then, you just offered to help me, I think, like, with study skills because I was not good at it. And I remember that, and I remember getting to know you, but then It's like the more I got to know you, the more like I don't know, like It's like I was interacting with different people, but it was just It was fine because it was still you, and it was still I don't know. Like, it was just cool. Like, you were one of my best friends.
Speaker 1:You were also, like, a mentor. Like, you were, like, a lot of different things to me, I guess. I don't know if that makes any sense.
Speaker 4:It does. It was pretty special.
Speaker 1:I really, really like, I don't know. I've never had another friend like that, you know, in my life. So, like, I felt like, I don't We could be silly together. We could be serious. It could be anything.
Speaker 1:I don't know. It was cool.
Speaker 4:I bet, especially in that season when it was difficult for us for different reasons, I feel like we were safe people for each other when the world around us was not feeling very safe.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That that is exactly how I put it. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
Speaker 4:How did you find out about DID? I don't remember that part. What did you remember about that?
Speaker 1:That, that you told us about it, me and, and another friend, my roommate, who will also remain nameless. But
Speaker 4:She does. Just so you know, she does know about the podcast. I have told her, but it was so traumatic for her too that she's, like, not not just not coming on the podcast. She doesn't even wanna listen right now, which is totally respect. But Yeah.
Speaker 4:It was hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. But I do I remember and I remember all the pieces, like, fit together. I was like, well, of course. That makes so much sense now.
Speaker 1:Like, why sometimes I can be playing with you on the floor, in a tent, And then the next day, you're, like, tutoring me. Like, I now I get it. Okay. It makes sense. And move on.
Speaker 1:Like, we just and it was like that was just normal. And but, like, you explained it so well that, like, and I think better than anyone else could because you were living it, right? And you were just understanding it, like, yourself. So you were, like, figuring out, Hey, this is what's going on. And as you did, you told us.
Speaker 1:And so, like, and this is one thing I really remember is that you told me that I was actually part of the, figuring things out because you had taken me to the airport with some other people who will also remain nameless because I don't talk about them. But you I was scared because I'd never flown by myself before ever. And I was just flying back home for Thanksgiving or something. And I remember I was terrified, and you gave me a stuffed bunny rabbit to take with me on the plane, like, right before I left. And, like, I seriously was, like, holding on to it for dear life when because little planes, like, shake and stuff, so it was really scary.
Speaker 1:But, like, I guess then you went back to those other people's house for dinner, whatever they were talking about, and you didn't remember any of that. And so that was, like, one of the things you told me. Like, that's something that they noticed. And I was like, that's crazy. I was like, well, not using that word, but that's, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:You know, like, that's something I don't know. It's just It was one of those things I'll, I'll never forget. There's just moments, you know, that are, like, so clear, and that's one of them. Like Aw. That that bunny rabbit, like, it was really cool.
Speaker 1:And it smelled like you. Because you always use the, like, vanilla, like, stuff on your carpet. Do you remember that? Then vacuum it up, and it like, I love and I associate that smell with you. So, anyways, the bunny rabbit smelled like that.
Speaker 1:I remember that. I don't know why. That's funny.
Speaker 4:We didn't like the smell of the carpet, so we kept trying to change the smell of the carpet in the dorms. Yeah. That's so funny. We definitely have a thing for bunny rabbits. That's true.
Speaker 4:Yes. Oh, there's so many things happening in my head. So what I know and what people who listen know I don't know how well, first of all, let me back up. How much of the podcast did you get to listen to? Did you just listen to a little bit to see if it was me or
Speaker 1:not? Listened to a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't had a chance because, Well, I'm going through a crazy time at work right now that's really difficult.
Speaker 1:I'm actually thinking of leaving teaching because it's really it's just not cool right now. It's stressful and whatever. So, yeah. So, like, just trying to keep up with like, I'm an EC teacher, so keeping up with IEPs and all that stuff, and it's it's 10 times harder because of COVID, and there's all that going on. So, like, I've been dealing with a lot of things.
Speaker 1:So I haven't had as much time to listen as much as I would like to, but I've listened I just So I really Really, it was more just like like you said, just to see if it was really you. And then I was like, But there's so much. And I was just looking at the names of And I was like, I don't even know where to start. That's kinda where I was at with that. Like yeah.
Speaker 4:Oh my goodness. I'm trying to, like, stay present. Like, I wanna jump through and, like, take you for a ride in the car. Let's go for an adventure.
Speaker 1:Oh, right? Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4:We actually have written it all down?
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. Uh-huh. I thought that was Well, we took
Speaker 4:that one down, but I put it back up. We had to take it down for a little while because of safety issues with the family, which
Speaker 1:is an
Speaker 4:ongoing thing, as you know. But but anyway so people who listen to the podcast, they know bits and pieces only because Right. Talk about as I'm learning, but I'm also really careful because I want well, just legally, you have to be careful talking about people. Right. Also, just for my own safety and because they're so scary, I don't want to talk about anything.
Speaker 4:Right? It's just hard stuff. I found so maybe it's so funny that I found you because I don't think I would have been ready to have this conversation, like, two years ago.
Speaker 1:But within COVID have either.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Right? So I think it there's, like, a god thing in the timing or something. But, anyway, about a year ago, I got in touch with a woman who let me try to explain this. The English it was my it's Trixie.
Speaker 4:A woman who went to the church where I went to high school. Okay?
Speaker 1:And when
Speaker 4:we basically had to run away from home, like, that church school, one of those church schools, is who sent me to that college. And Gotcha. This woman that I found was, like, best friends with the woman that I stayed with the summer before we went to college. And so she, like, witnessed from an outside point all of those things that we went through. She was there and witnessed more of it because she had the same therapist that the school sent me to in Tulsa.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 4:And when that therapist, like, basically moved me into her house, this lady who is also a patient yeah. Yeah. We'll talk about it.
Speaker 1:I remember you there after I was not at said school anymore, but that's another story. Did I? Yeah.
Speaker 4:This this woman was also a patient of that same therapist and living at that house. And this woman ultimately sued that therapist, and that therapist lost her license because you shouldn't be doing that.
Speaker 1:No. Yeah. No. I was thinking about it now, and I was like, did that really happen? Did I really go was she living at the therapist's house, and did we go and spend the the weekend there?
Speaker 1:And I was like, I remember this very clearly. I think it happened. And then I was like, that's not okay. Right. Trying to walk through that, like, unpack that.
Speaker 1:Like, I don't know.
Speaker 4:Right. So that that woman who was an English teacher in junior high, actually, so I knew her in all these weird layers. But she sued that therapist. That therapist lost her license. But, anyway, she came on the podcast and was like, here's what I remember about that time for
Speaker 1:you. Right.
Speaker 4:And told, like, how that family is the one who sent me to the college, so that's how I ended up there, which I didn't remember. She told me about things that well, she talked about oh, it's so it's so hard to say out loud. She talked about how that woman that I had been staying with from the church the summer before school told the dean of women that's all I'm
Speaker 1:gonna say.
Speaker 4:Told the dean of women that I had been molested and needed therapy. That's what started it. In the enrollment line. Okay? And so the dean, who you know what I'm talking about,
Speaker 1:the dean of do women because I have some experiences with her as well. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Too much trauma. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:This dean of women said that for me to stay in school, I had to go to this Tulsa therapist. Mhmm. Right? That's where it started. But
Speaker 1:That's crazy.
Speaker 4:Right. But I could for me, in my experience, because I had left home, if I didn't stay in school, I would have been homeless. Like, for me, I really could not get sent to that because I didn't actually have a choice. So Right. So that's how I was getting sent to that therapist.
Speaker 4:But also, I know, and the people who listen on the podcast know, again without names, that it was the psychology professor who Right. Diagnosed me and found the therapist in Tulsa, but then that there were some confidentiality issues with him and his wife who drove me to the appointment, basically disclosing everything to all of my professors,
Speaker 1:And Right.
Speaker 4:I got demons cast out of me and things like that of, like
Speaker 1:Yeah. So what I remember about that person that, like, wife is I remember me and my roommate once we were like It was pretty much the three We were like the three amigos. We did everything together. And often, often, we were sitting in that driveway in the car while you were in there for, like, a couple hours. And it's not your fault, but this adult woman knew we were out there and never invited us in or told us what was going on or anything like that.
Speaker 1:And I remember that being, like, just weird. And I felt like she was jealous of us, like our friendship with you. And I got in trouble more than once because of the things that she said to other people who were in charge and everything. Like, they thought I was, like, a mastermind, and I was just like, I don't know, doing all that. I was like, I just do we we just I don't know.
Speaker 1:Like, it wasn't that way, you know? Like, the biggest one was getting in trouble for watching a movie about deer in the library. And for some reason, they thought that was my idea. It was not my idea. But, like, I think that came from her because, for whatever reason, there was a I don't know.
Speaker 1:So there was just some unhealthy stuff going on there. It was
Speaker 4:very unhealthy. Very unhealthy. You okay? We all have to talk about it. It was it was very unhealthy, and and she the therapist ultimately that moved me into her house thought that she was, like, molesting littles.
Speaker 4:And
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 4:That's why she wouldn't let us go back to school and basically locked us in her house to keep us away from the school and our family. And when the school said she couldn't do that and told our family where we were, she sent us to the monastery in Arkansas.
Speaker 1:I remember that. You called me from there.
Speaker 4:Don't remember it. I
Speaker 1:I remember it because that was the funniest phone call I've ever had in my life. You were so excited. And you told me you were roller skating in the monastery. And I and I wasn't supposed to be talking to you at that time because that was a time when, again, because of things that other people said, and I don't know, I was some kind of bad influence. And somehow they thought that I was in touch with with your family and, like, scary people, and I didn't know what they were talking about anyways.
Speaker 1:But they told me, We we weren't allowed to talk to you. Like, because they would try to keep us separated, and you would that's when the car thing came up, because you'd come up and, like we'd, like, escape together because we weren't allowed to see each other when we were on campus. I think that was right before you went. But, anyways
Speaker 4:Why? Why were we not allowed to see also, we're in college. We're not children.
Speaker 1:Right. They thought that I was, I don't know, doing something to you. Like, that like, they they thought that there was something first of all, they thought that I knew somebody that, like, was from your past or whatever, but literally, you had pointed him out to me in, like, a subway once, and he looked super creepy. And I literally saw him from across the room. He never talked to the guy, but they were convinced that he was trying to get to you through me or some I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know all of the people. Because I'm just sitting there going like, I don't know what you guys are talking about, and nobody ever believed me. Talk about invalidation. Like, I was always in trouble, and I never knew what I was doing wrong. I was like, all I wanna do is, like, go to school and be with my friends.
Speaker 1:So, like, I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's none of that is your fault. This is this is all stuff that was from the the admin and the people who were in charge because they were listening to the wrong people, you know? And I think a lot of that, again, comes down to this person who had that jealousy about, like, because our friendship was so fun. And maybe she wanted more.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I don't know. And now I will see and I don't know what else was going on there. So I just know it was not It was not fun. I'll just say that.
Speaker 1:But you were always fun, and I always was excited to spend time with you, you know what? Even if I wasn't supposed to, I didn't care.
Speaker 4:Oh my goodness. It I'm it was hard. I don't know why there was so much drama or why admin for the college was working so hard to get rid of us or Yeah. Kick us out, I mean, ultimately. And Yeah.
Speaker 4:I don't know why we were not treated like adults. Like, I feel like that's
Speaker 1:No, we were not. None of us were treated like adults. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
Speaker 4:I'm just No, I'm just one of those things in hindsight, like that some of the things like, I remember being locked in my room in the dorm and, like, things I look back at that in this day and age, like, would never fly.
Speaker 1:And Right. Like, even then, like, we were living in the dark ages or something. Like, it was, like, way before like, I like, rewind in time. It was, like, stepping back into, like, I don't know, something. Because then I went to college, like, in Indiana, like, at a regular, like, a university.
Speaker 1:It's like, woah. Like, that's when I started to realize how messed up it was there. I was like, it is just it was so restrictive. And how how do you expect people to grow up in that kind of environment? Like, doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 4:It was really, really I really think it's a huge part of some of my own religious trauma and untingling, like, version of God or faith or something if I want to, like, is such a mess because of all that, because that's all wrapped up into it. And I've actually like, I don't know where you are in your life at this point and no judging any of it, seriously. But my faith is really important to me, but I'm very, very sensitive about it and very, very careful who I talk to about it because I don't want that.
Speaker 1:Right. Because of I'm what the same way. I I actually I went through a part where I I I kinda walked away from my faith for a while for different reasons than it wasn't then, which was weird to me now, like because I, you know, had to leave the school as well. But I just like, now I I found a place where I know it's safe. Like, even when I didn't know what I believed, I could walk back in the doors, and the pastor there would just put his arm around me and say, I'm so glad to see you.
Speaker 1:Like, and I could tell him anything, and he didn't ever judge me or tell me I couldn't be there. You know, that's my safe place right now. Like, and we're a really tiny group of people, but we're doing what I believe is what, what is our, like, fulfilling me, you know, like, out to the the community that we're in now has a lot of homeless in the population. We're, like, getting in there and and trying to actually help these people, not just say, I'm gonna pray for you and walk away, you know? And so to me, yeah, like, it's it's it's an essential part of my life.
Speaker 1:It always has been, but I almost lost it because of that time. Almost. And I definitely thought that I had failed God when I left there.
Speaker 4:So The amount of shame that was put on us is indescribable. And unless someone has been through, like, religious abuse from a Christian sect, like Right. Right. A Christian sect that did this, and they have a whole underground on Facebook. Have you seen that of survivors of religious abuse from that school?
Speaker 1:No. But I would like to connect with with that group.
Speaker 4:I I'm not in it now because I just can't. I can't, but I have seen it, and people told
Speaker 1:me else. Like, I don't know if I'm comfortable as much be like but I definitely want want to see other experiences because for a long time, I felt like it was me. And I still struggle a lot with with some of that. Like, I screwed up my whole life, but it like, my sister, even my little sister, when I came home from school, it was like it was probably a few years after. I remember her saying to me, You were happy.
Speaker 1:You were you were And then you went to that school, and you came back, and you were all messed up. And And And, yes, I have some trauma in my past, in my family, in other things. But right now, I've dealt with most of that. And I've still got anxiety through the roof, and my therapist and I are figuring out this is where it's coming from. And I just started dealing with it now, twenty years, twenty two years down the road.
Speaker 1:I
Speaker 4:still have panic attacks when I have to go to church. Our family our family goes to church every week. Yeah. It's really important to me, and I'm trying really hard, but I still have panic attacks. And I it's very difficult for me to interact with anyone in that kind of authority.
Speaker 4:Between what happened when I was little and what happened at that college has been it's awful. It's so, so traumatic, and I don't know what heals that. I don't know how do you talk about that? It's not something people understand or know how to talk about very much.
Speaker 1:No. And so I mean, I don't
Speaker 4:I had, at that time like, I'm thinking I'm thinking I I have a daughter that is a foster daughter. Right. An adult now. Right? But she was trafficked here from Honduras.
Speaker 4:And so most people don't know about this. They just know about the little ones. She was trafficked here from Honduras. And so because she's from Honduras, we couldn't adopt her. But she's like 23 now, and we've had her since she was 15.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 4:And so she's like 23 now. And so I watched her go through those developmental stages. And like, she has her own kids now, right? So I'm a grandma. I've never talked about that on the podcast.
Speaker 4:But anyway, I've watched her go through those developmental stages.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. That's funny. I mean, if I think about it, I'm old enough. We're old now.
Speaker 4:Anyway anyway, I've watched her go through these developmental stages. I think of my oldest daughter and watching her when she was 17 and thinking, this is how old I was. Right. When I had to run away from home and live on the streets until I could figure out what my plan was. I watched her turn 18 and the hot mess that she was.
Speaker 1:I'm sure.
Speaker 4:And thinking, this is how old I was when all of that was going on. We were children. Like, were barely adults, yes, technically, but we were children. We should have had parents or teachers or someone who was intervening in our behalf or helping us or guiding us, not a whole school of authority shaming us
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 4:For struggling when all of this was going on. At that time, I was 17, 18, 19, I had run away from home. I had been through this whole drama with my biological family. I had safety issues. I had someone stalking me.
Speaker 4:I had a therapist that was telling me that my driver that I was alone in a car with for hours every Monday to go to therapy and hours at her house, that this person was taking advantage of parts of me I didn't even know about or couldn't remember or get in touch with or know how to what to do about that. I had this psych professor telling all of my parts to all of the school. I had the dorm locking me in, keeping me apart from my friends. Like, no wonder I felt crazy. Like, using the word crazy, no wonder we couldn't figure out
Speaker 1:what was I I think of it like it's it's like the twilight zone. Like, really I mean, what we accepted as normal was not like, you just accept what you're living through. Right? And it it doesn't make sense. But then when I look back on it, I'm like If I tell someone else a story, they're not gonna believe me because it was so weird.
Speaker 1:Like, why did that even happen? And yeah. But when when when I was there, it was that was just life. Right?
Speaker 4:What else do you remember?
Speaker 1:It's hard because, like, there's so many things. I remember really trying to, I don't know, just wrap my mind around what was going on but not knowing who I could talk to because, again, like, I didn't wanna tell people anything that it's you know, because So I pretty much could talk to that one person because you talked to us together, so we all knew the same stuff, right? But I wasn't gonna talk to someone else about you. So I had better boundaries than the teacher. That's interesting now.
Speaker 1:But, like but it was a lot. And now I look at it, and I'm like, they all these adults, they knew that we were dealing with that too. And again, they didn't step in and try to help us understand it. Right? They just said, well, we're just leaving that alone, you know?
Speaker 1:And I I had never thought about that. Like, no, they shouldn't have all known about it either. But if they could see that, but then they just, like, didn't try to help and say, hey, well, maybe these girls need some, like, I don't know, something to help them to figure out what's going on, you know? I don't know. Like, it just was weird that they didn't.
Speaker 1:And all I remember is negative, like, as far as the, like you said, the shame part. Like, you're doing something wrong. Like, you're Like, I I never saw those people unless they were telling me what I was doing wrong. Right? But I remember I don't know.
Speaker 1:I Like, there's there's bits and pieces because I'm still Like I said, I blocked it out for a really long time, and it all just started, like, flooding back in the last I mean, this has been within the last month that I'm starting to remember this stuff. Like, this is very fresh for me, like, really dealing with it. So it's hard because some of the memories aren't very solid. Like I said, there's, like, pieces where it's, like it's so clear. Like, that memory at the airport.
Speaker 1:Like, I remember that. Like like, I could be there. Like, I could go there in my head and be there and sense everything. Like, there's some things like that. But, like, then there's a lot of just more it's fuzzy.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean? I remember being at the subway a lot because I think you worked there, and we went there to hang out while you were working all the time together.
Speaker 4:Happened? How that came about is because after I got back from the monastery, like when I ran away from that therapist because I was like, this is not okay. I was not I was so excluded there, and she was this became a pattern for me later. I had to work out. But, anyway, she was known for being good.
Speaker 4:Everyone thought, like, she was doing so much good to help this poor stray child. I remember when she called me her mutt. I was like, I'm not a mutt. Horrible. Right?
Speaker 4:Anyway, I realized it was not healthy, and I had to run away from there. I had to get out of there because that's what I do. I ran away. And so I ended up going back to the college because where else am I gonna go? Right.
Speaker 4:But maybe I mean, now I know that was not a good idea. But at the time, like, where else am I gonna go? So I ran away and went back to the school and did, like, a whole other school year, which was a disaster. But when school was gonna get out, I couldn't go back to that house. Like, I was homeless.
Speaker 4:They bounced me around professor Holmes for a couple weeks, and then they were like, here's an apartment we've paid only for the first month, and here's a really bad car that's gonna catch on fire a year from now and burn your legs, but whatever. And you have to pay for this. So we got you an apartment across from Subway so that you can walk there because that was before That's the
Speaker 1:why you were working at a sub wow. I just remember you were we came back to school because that was, like, over the summer, I think, when you got the job. Right? And we came back to school, and then you were at the subway, and we just, like, that became our new spot. Like, we just hung out at the subway all the time, which is kind of fun too, but only because, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Some I don't know if that was weird. I didn't know that part of it, though. Because Yeah. Like, I knew you had an apartment, but, yeah, I didn't know the rest of that. Like, I didn't know what happened to you that summer because I went home, right, and came back, and I was ten hours from there.
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 4:I remember that they had so many secrets. Like, they held so many secrets for people who were supposed to be purifying us. They had so many secrets. We tried to say they asked about why we were staying with that therapist instead of coming back to school, and it's like, well, she thinks the professor's wife is touching me inappropriately. Like, what am I supposed to say?
Speaker 4:And so, like, I say that, and they and their response was, well, we think that you're being like, having inappropriate relationships with your friends. I was like, okay. We were so innocent We of all the were such prudes. We were so traumatized That
Speaker 1:that made me remember something now just now because okay. So remember, they wouldn't let me see you. I remember one of the things they that I think you told me that they said this, but, like, because they didn't they didn't even tell me why. Just we're not allowed to see you. But I think you told me that they had said something about me being in the room when you were getting dressed.
Speaker 1:And I do remember that because, like, we were just talking or whatever, and you were getting ready to go somewhere. And it's not like like, I always would look away, whatever. I was in the room. But I remember that other t that other person that you were talking about came to pick you up at that time and saw that I was in there with you, like, while you were getting ready or whatever, and she said something about it. But, yeah, that's where they came up with that.
Speaker 1:Like And it had nothing Like, no There was no validity to it. But I remember that. That was part of the reason that they told us we couldn't see each other and, like, hang out because they thought, again, that it was that that's crazy. Again Trying not to use that word, but I don't know how you cannot because of everything that happened there.
Speaker 4:It's a lot. Well and and just, I mean, again, in context, like, it was a college dorm. Were girls running around there after showers and doing all kinds of stuff trying to get ready in
Speaker 1:their remember when you got dressed, like, would still even be, like, careful. Like, do you know what I mean? And, like, I would not be looking at you. Like, that's just the way like, we were like you said, we were recruits. Like, I don't I still, to this day, like, I never liked getting, like, dressed in locker rooms or things like that.
Speaker 1:Like, I never Like, I was on the swim team, and I We had one of those We had two bathroom stalls that had no doors on it in my high school, and I would go behind one of those and hope that nobody came back there while I was changing because I couldn't change it from the other girls. Like, that's who I am. So, like, the fact that they even thought anything like that, it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 4:Yeah. The whole experience was very Darvo. Do you know about Darvo? No. Like, it's this term about betrayal trauma where they deny, attack, reverse victim, offender.
Speaker 4:So every time we tried to say, what you're doing to us is not okay, they ignite it, they attacked our character, and then they reversed it to where they were the victim and we were the naughty, naughty people.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. You know wow. Yeah. That's pretty much what they were doing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's why that's where I got that feeling of always, like, I did something. I don't know what I did, but they're mad at me about it. And, like, I yeah.
Speaker 4:Well and what you said earlier about why would anyone support us? Why wouldn't anyone help us? They weren't trying to help us. They were trying to make us obedient.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, like, the way that the way that even the dorms were. Like, we didn't have TVs in our room or anything like that.
Speaker 1:And at that point in time, that would have been normal. Right? Like, I'm okay with not, but it was like, so the only place you could go to watch anything was in the the lobby of the dormitory, right? So, like, even that feels controlling to me, you know? Like, just all of these things where, like like, you had curfews and stuff.
Speaker 1:Like, I've never been to a college where they have curfews and stuff. I'm sure probably mostly Christian colleges do, but, like, still, it was just weird. Yeah. More like controlling, like trying to trying to get us to do exactly what they wanted, which is crazy because all I wanted was to please the adults and the people in charge, and I couldn't do it. Like, it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I'm trying to jump back to safer material for a minute. What you said when you looked at the podcast, you recognized names. What names did you recognize?
Speaker 1:I do remember. So I remember that I mean, I I remember the the names. Is it okay for me to say them to you? Well, I guess you can edit anything out. Right.
Speaker 1:Right. So I remember, Chris was the smart one that was like, I believe she was 21. Like, your age would have been at the time and was the one that tutored me. It was the fun one that was, like, 17 or something. MK is a little one that I love.
Speaker 1:Like, she's, oh my gosh, one of my favorite to hang out with. I remember Katie. I think there was one called John Mark that I saw some of the time. I know that there was talk about the baby, but I don't know that I ever met the baby. And that's all I can remember right now.
Speaker 1:But, like, those were the main ones, I'd say, that we And kinda hung out it made so much sense to me when I when it was explained to me that I was just like, Okay. Oh, well, that's good. Okay. Like and it just I accepted it. I I don't know.
Speaker 1:That wasn't weird to me, that part, because I'd already been accustomed to just adapting to who you were, I guess, if that makes sense.
Speaker 4:It's very kind of gracious of you. It shows a lot about your character both then and now that you continue to be so kind to me. I just wanna thank you for that.
Speaker 1:You're welcome.
Speaker 4:There was a lot of name confusion. One of the things that happened while you were around is that the professor and his wife tried to adopt me.
Speaker 1:I think they I thought that they did because I remember you had their last name for a while that I remembered. I do remember that.
Speaker 4:Yes. They
Speaker 1:did. They did. Yeah.
Speaker 4:They did. And so our name got changed then. They changed our name.
Speaker 1:Yep. I thought that was a little weird, but, you know
Speaker 4:It got weirder. It got weirder. So when we left that school, we were actually nannying for a girl with autism. And so that family was like, no. Those people are super weird.
Speaker 4:And so is the therapist where you lived. You just need to not go back to any of those people. And they hired a nun, more Catholics, right? They hired a nun to change my name again so that it wouldn't go with them so that legally there would not be any attachment to the professor and his wife. So then my name got changed
Speaker 1:last name got again. And I I do remember when it was changed again, like, because I was still in contact with you then. I remember But like, I didn't know why.
Speaker 4:And then they would not let me have contact with anyone from the school, which is basically how we started losing contact. So then here I am at this point, like 24 years old, once again, being held in a house against my will, my name legally changed, people telling me I cannot have contact with people that I know or care about, completely I like, how does this keep happening and I'm 24 years I
Speaker 1:can't even imagine how you're feeling then. Like, wow.
Speaker 4:The only thing that was relief to me was that I knew both of you, you and your roommate that we're not mentioning, you and your roommate both got out, like, away. Yep. And so I knew that you were safe. I was not so safe.
Speaker 1:That doesn't yeah. It doesn't sound like you were. My goodness. Wow. Like, I can't even.
Speaker 1:And then through all that, you still got, like, went back to school and got your PhD and, like which doesn't surprise me because you're one of the smartest people I know. But, like, seriously, if you think, oh, gosh. Yeah, I didn't know. Because I I think my parents kind of, like, wanted me to kind of not talk to people from there for a while, but it wasn't like, You can't. You know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Like, it was more like, Let's get some space from this place. But that I know why now because my mom shared with me later that, Bob, who was the that he was a doctor, he I They took me there when I had to go somewhere to the hospital or whatever, took me to their house. And so he They knew what was going on with me. And he and his wife like, they told my parents to get me out of there. Like, it wasn't a safe place for me.
Speaker 1:So that's interesting to me. Like, I didn't know that till years years later, my mom told me that.
Speaker 4:I'm glad someone did.
Speaker 1:I mean, they basically told me to to like, the school basically told me, you can come back when you're better or whatever. Like, they basically kicked me out anyway. But, like, these people said, Hey, this is not a safe environment for your daughter. Get her away. So they were kind of Like, I mean, they still let me stay in touch with my friends, but they kind of were They were apprehensive about me go because I went back to get some of my stuff that had been left there because, I mean, I had to move quick.
Speaker 1:And that's when I think I went I met with you and, that's when you were at the the, therapist's house, and we went to stay there. And my and I came, and my my roommate, who had got left before me, met me. And so we all kinda got back together really quick, but they were afraid to let me go because I drove out there by myself. But my parents, like, so they were apprehensive about that. They voiced that, but they didn't say, Hey, you can't.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean? There's a difference. There's a Yeah. Like These people aren't safe, but, like, we're gonna let you make your choices kind of thing. But they did, you know, I don't know how that it's weird to me that they didn't go with me now that I think about it because that was the summer after I left in, like, February.
Speaker 1:They let me go and trusted me that I was gonna be make good choices, I guess. Whatever.
Speaker 4:I did not watch a lot of TV. And during the pandemic, obviously, there was so much time to wait. But but one of the things that happened during the pandemic was my husband. I have a husband. That's a whole different story.
Speaker 1:He Yeah. I saw you in some of your bio stuff that you had, you know, kids, and that's so crazy to me. Like, I'm like, oh my gosh. Now I'm jealous because I don't. I have nieces and nephews, so they're awesome.
Speaker 4:Oh my goodness. I will tell you all about it. But but my husband said, hey. I found something for you to watch. Now anytime he says this, it's always the most bizarre thing.
Speaker 4:He writes musicals, my husband. Okay? He's a musical theater writer. So when he wants to show me something, it's something he wants to adapt, and it's gonna be something crazy and bizarre. And I'm gonna be like, okay, weirdo.
Speaker 4:Whatever. But this time, he goes, they've made a show about your college. And I was like, what? And it was Handmaid's Tale. And I was like, cannot watch this.
Speaker 4:It's too real. You don't understand.
Speaker 1:Maybe I don't want to right now, actually.
Speaker 4:No. No. No. No. No.
Speaker 4:No. And I couldn't. I couldn't. But I'm just saying, like, listeners who understand at least what we're referencing even if they haven't seen it, like, that's what it felt like. We could not get away from these people.
Speaker 4:You don't have to watch it. I'm just saying, like, that we as adults could not get away from that place. You know, when they talking about they told you you could come back if you got better. They did to was they said, we know that you are smarter than us. And so this is not open for discussion because we know that you will be able to talk your way out of it.
Speaker 4:And so they just gave me a list and to prove that I was sane, I had to provide a stack of documents, everything on this list. So things like that I had been to the monastery, that I had, that this therapist was still seeing me, that I had, I had to give them not just re I had not just, like, a note from the doctor, but also receipts for my medicine and things because I was very sick at the time. I had that infection, and and I had to
Speaker 1:show all of these things. That.
Speaker 4:And I I had to give them all these things, but I didn't know what else to do. And I by that time, I was, like, in my senior year, double major, spring semester, a month away from graduating. And so I did what I had to do just to get out of school and handed them the entire stack. It was all there, all of the documentation of everything. And they were like, no.
Speaker 4:And they held a meeting and called in my parents that I had run away from six years before, and they gave them the entire stack of paper. They gave them all my journals from that dean of women fake therapy. I don't have a license. And all those essays from the English teacher Woah. Where she was like, your essays are so good.
Speaker 4:Your writing is so good. You're going to be a writer. I need to hold on to your essays so that I can share them with other classes. Nope. She gave them to my parents.
Speaker 1:That's the worst thing I think I've ever heard. I you you had allowed me to read some of your write I don't know if it was any of that that you wrote your essays, but I know I I'm I think it was something for English class, whatever, for, college. Like and your parents having that is not a good thing. It's not okay.
Speaker 4:And a copy of the map of our system of, like, our DID, all the alters and their names and ages, everything. They give them everything.
Speaker 1:That doesn't even make any sense. Like, why would they do that? Now I'm I'm really I'm feeling a lot of emotions about that right now. So
Speaker 4:Even if I take it like, even if I tried really hard to get from their perspective and squeeze myself into their little box, I think they thought, like, oh, parents. So parents can solve this problem. But my parents weren't like that, and that my parents weren't together. I hadn't.
Speaker 1:It. Didn't they know enough about your parents to know that wasn't an option? Like, that doesn't even make sense that they did that. What in what were they thinking? I don't know.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. Like, I'm just still trying to process that.
Speaker 4:It was so confusing. And so now my I don't know how to say it. Mhmm. Is angry at me because I have because I'm talking. They found the podcast.
Speaker 4:They have found out about the podcast and also the books, which is from those essays. The books develop from those essays and ultimately journaling and therapy, all of that edited and put together is where the book came And
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:They have that, and they're like, no. That's not what happened. I don't remember. But, also, they don't understand all that was going on. So Yeah.
Speaker 4:So they're mad at the therapist that took us home. They're mad at the English teacher, the one that was also living there. They don't understand that the school was not safe and don't understand me at all. But I had no contact with them since then, like, I was 17, other than these brief encounters where I'm in trouble, just like at the school.
Speaker 1:Right. Wow.
Speaker 4:I'm sorry. We can talk about something else. I don't mean to
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. I'm just, like it's just worse than I thought it was, like, was and that's I I think I knew it somewhere deep down, but, like, I wanted to believe that they had our best interests in mind kind of thing. But, like, I can't. Like, I can't make that fit right now.
Speaker 1:You know? And and that's hard.
Speaker 4:And it's and it's really sad because or my biological family that's left. Like, I I would want to protect them and help them and connect with them and work through this. Right. But it's like, you don't understand what I was going through, and you're not hearing that or receiving that. And you telling me that I'm a behavior problem is the same thing that the school was telling me about my family.
Speaker 4:So, like, I can't the only options I had as a young adult between therapy, school, and my family, it was like they I was in trouble with all of them for the same reasons and also being actively abused by all of them in different ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's I'm really sorry that that happened to you. You know? And that you didn't have an escape. I wish I could have taken you home to my like, we could have found him somewhere, like, just to hang out.
Speaker 1:Just like me and my roommate and you. We could have just like found a safe place like and just leave all those.
Speaker 4:You, we, we would, you would not have been able to finish school because we would have been just having too much We have six kids all adopted from foster care.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. So amazing. Exhausting. I'm sure. That's something I'm thinking about doing foster care.
Speaker 4:They all have IEPs.
Speaker 1:I was gonna I was wondering about that. Thought about like, well, maybe what if what if I mess them up? Right? What if I what if they get, like, all the the bad parts of me? Like, if what if I do like, I can't do and somebody said that if you love them, you're gonna give them more than what they have now.
Speaker 1:Can I
Speaker 4:tell you something?
Speaker 1:So you know? But, like, if that fear is still there, though.
Speaker 4:Can I tell you Yes? There are no bad parts of you. Even if you have access to all your parts, and I don't know, I'm not trying to get nosy into your therapy, but whether or not you have access to all the parts of yourself or not, my husband always says he's got parts. They're just all in a fish tank together, so he just slashes around.
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 4:He doesn't have DID, so he says he has an associative disorder because he does not have DID.
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 4:All of those parts of you, I promise are there for a reason. And some of them are hurting because of that stupid school, but it's not your fault and you're not bad no matter what they said.
Speaker 1:That's the that's probably the thing that I'm still struggling with the most is feeling like there's something broken or wrong with me, you know? And I think a lot of that I mean, some of it started before then because of the ADD, because of feeling, you know, there there was some of that. It was there, but they just took it to such a new level that it's like, healing from it is gonna take a lot longer, you know? I'm sure you can relate to that. Those kids that you have are lucky to have you because I don't know.
Speaker 4:Do you know why No. They have Because I had you.
Speaker 1:I
Speaker 4:just wanna thank you for being my friend, really.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, through all these years, that's one thing, like, knowing that there's people who are, you know, who who love you for who you are is a big deal. And you were always that for me. So finding you has been, like, super awesome.
Speaker 1:Thank you for thinking about something. I hope you're okay. You got
Speaker 4:It's hard. Like, there are things I did not remember until I saw your face, and there are things I didn't remember till you told me other things, and it's all kind of blurry, but the feelings are big. It's very Yeah. Yucky and scary. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So definitely do something fun and enjoyable right now. Like Yay.
Speaker 4:Coping skills.
Speaker 1:Or whatever you need to do. I don't have my guinea pigs anymore, but I have, I have enough people that I have pet sit for that I might have to go see somebody tomorrow and be like, Hey, can I just play with your dog? So, yeah, because that's awesome therapy.
Speaker 4:I'm so glad you found me. It's amazing.
Speaker 1:Me too. It was like, like you said, I mean, it was a God timing thing. Like, I don't know that I could have been ready for it, you know, before.
Speaker 4:Did you think when you when you found me but then saw, like, the DID, the podcast? Like, what were you like?
Speaker 1:I was kind of like, wow. Like, I was I was a little bit shocked, though, that you were sharing that much and stuff. Like, with like, I was like, that's really brave. Like, wow. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That really amaze me. But, I mean, it's so good that people can learn from it. Like and I'm hoping that it's making an impact and people are understanding more because of it. You know what I mean? And, like, just being encouraged and yeah.
Speaker 1:Because
Speaker 4:Well, you know, like, it goes really, I'm doing the podcast because of what happened in college. Like, everyone kept taking my story away. Right? Everyone kept silencing me. Everyone kept telling my story for me, and no one would let me do it myself.
Speaker 4:So I do now. I
Speaker 1:love that. It was pretty awesome. And it's pretty, like I said, brave. You're, like, one of the bravest people I know.
Speaker 4:Oh, breeze, baby. Oh, breeze.
Speaker 1:Awesome. I like that. I have not heard that before. That was really cool.
Speaker 4:I'm so happy in my heart to see your face. I love you forever, and I am so grateful to hear from you, to see you, and I hope we can talk some more.
Speaker 1:Not necessarily about this stuff, but, you know. Yeah. Yeah. We'll have to catch up more. I wanna hear more about your kids and all their, like, I don't know, personality, I guess.
Speaker 1:I'm sure they have that.
Speaker 4:There's so much. I have triplets. Wow. 13 year olds.
Speaker 1:One
Speaker 4:is deaf. One has autism. One has cerebral palsy and spina bifida.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 4:And then twin nine year olds, I have to think, nine year olds, of whom have fetal alcohol, so like lots of tantrums and and one of them also has autism.
Speaker 1:Wow. So I've worked a lot with kids with autism since, that's like my like, I I just connect with them. I don't know. I love them. They're like my favorite pupils.
Speaker 4:You've always And been great with then our sixth one, our youngest one is six, and she has a complex airway. She was born without an airway because of drug and alcohol abuse.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, they had to
Speaker 4:She's lived in a hospital and for five then the pandemic happened and it was horrifying. So we had to move to the country.
Speaker 1:Gosh. Because if she got sick, that would be wow.
Speaker 4:That's She only had a G tube and oxygen and everything. It was a nightmare, but she's doing really well and we were super careful. We were in quarantine for twenty one months until we could get I her
Speaker 1:bet. Yeah. I mean, you have to keep her safe. That's wow. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, though. Like, I bet they're amazing. It has been really great.
Speaker 4:Oh, you filled I'm my praying for you. I love you. Truly. Thank you. You had so much courage to talk to me and so much courage to be on the podcast, and I'm so, so, so grateful.
Speaker 4:And if there's anything you want me to take out, just message me and let me know, and we can edit it. But, I'm grateful just trying to put my story together, and there are pieces where I'm like, I don't know. Real, not real. Like, can this really happen? No.
Speaker 4:It really didn't These other witnesses
Speaker 1:had some things like that. Like yeah. Because, like, there were things that I was remembering. I was like, did that really happen? I don't Yeah.
Speaker 1:You're concerned that it did. So okay. That was not as crazy as I thought in my head. Like, wow.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. Thank But you know what? You so Forward.
Speaker 1:So that's good. Good. Well, thank you. And, I hope all the people out there listening to the podcast can learn something positive and take away this that they can be, resilient no matter what you've been through. There there's never a point can't heal from it.
Speaker 1:You know? I think that's a yeah.
Speaker 4:If you and I can hold on to that, we'll be okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I love you. Bye. Love you. Bye.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing. One of the ways we practice this is in community together. The link for the community is in the show notes.
Speaker 2:We look forward to seeing you there while we practice caring for ourselves, caring for our family, and participating with those who also care for community. And remember, I'm just a human, not a therapist for the community, and not there for dating, and not there to be shiny happy. Less shiny, actually. I'm there to heal too, being human together. So, yeah, sometimes we'll see you there.