042 | Building Flavor From Grain to Cask, How Each step Plays a Role in Recruiting Consumers | Part 1/2 with André de Almeida of Inside the Cask (Glasgow, Scotland)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 042 I had the pleasure of chatting with André de Almeida. He is a Drinks Industry Consultant and Founder of the "Inside the Cask" website. André has 20 years of experience having worked with Loch Lomond Group, William Grant & Sons, Edrington, and other drinks companies. He is also a Drinks Jury Member at Spirits Selection by Concours Mondial de Bruxelles.

Time Stamps

0:00 Introduction

1:39 Starting From Brand or Liquid?

3:51 Bringing In New Whisk(e)y Drinkers

9:18 Whisk(e)y Education

12:53 Category Bridging For Whisk(e)y

18:53 Category Jumping With Wood

25:41 Clear Target Occasion Vs Pigeonholing

27:38 Recruitment Via Cocktails

35:22 The Role Of Bottom-Up Trade

40:49 Outro

About the Host: Chris Maffeo

About the Guest: Andre De Almeida

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Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Andre De Almeida

Drinks Industry Consultant | Inside The Cask

What is MAFFEO DRINKS Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafao Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Mafao.
In episode 42, I had the

pleasure of chatting with Andre
de Almeida.

He's a drinks industry
consultant and founder of the

Inside the Cast website.
Andre has 20 years of experience

having worked with Loch Lomond
Group, William Grantson Sons,

Edrington and other drinks
companies.

He's also a drinks jury member
at Spirit Selection by Concord

Mondial de Brussel.
Hi, Andre.

How you doing?
Yeah.

Hi, Chris.
I'm very well.

Thank you.
Great to be here.

Fantastic.
Fantastic to see you again and

you are a celebrity in the
whiskey world and I'm really

honored to have you here.
Many people will know you as the

man behind Inside the Cask.
I'm not sure about celebrity,

but I certainly been around the
the business for a while and as

always I'm happy to share some
of that experience and insights

built over that time with with
as many people as I can when I

meet them, but equally through
the website inside the cask.

Fantastic, fantastic.
So let's dive in.

I mean, it would be an
interesting conversation.

And we met, I don't know, maybe
like a couple of years ago

during the home days of the
lockdown and we got to know each

other probably.
I don't know if it was like club

hours or or something or
LinkedIn.

And it was like one of these
connections of people that I've

never had the honor to have a
drink with.

We got in touch and we kept in
contact.

So we are.
We are digital friends from now,

and then hopefully we'll have a
drum together one one day or

another.
As nice as it is to to have met

you, virtually obviously nothing
substitutes And meeting in

person and then sharing that
drum as you see.

Let's start talking about
whiskey because that's the

that's the thing that got me to
know you at least.

How do you think whiskey brands
start because the the liquid is

so important in all categories
but especially in whiskey.

I mean it's plays a major role
in differentiating brands from

each other.
What do you think?

Does it start from the from the
brand world or does it start

from the liquid?
I think ultimately the liquid

has to be the number one,
because if you want to sell

another bottle and not just sell
the first bottle, then liquid

has to be first and foremost,
you know, especially given what

what consumers look for and and
what people out there look for

when it comes to whiskey.
But you can't deny that the

brand, the packaging it, it's
important given that people buy

with their ice first a lot of
times.

But I would certainly say in
terms of importance, liquid

comes first if you want to
repeat business, repeat purchase

and therefore that, that would
be first in my hierarchy of

importance.
And what do you think, I mean

like the biggest there is a lot
of of course like competition

and differentiation and let's
call it however we we prefer.

But you know there is something
that in terms of liquid, you

know what is the most important
thing for you that recruits

people into the whiskey
category?

Is it a category differentiation
like Irish, Scotch, American,

New World or is it a liquid or
is it the cask?

What are the things that come
into play?

More importantly for let's call
it like the average consumer,

not the, I'm not talking about
the whiskey gonna serve because

that's more of a secondary step.
Yeah, I mean whiskey itself is

obviously a top level category,
right, for grain based

distillates, whether you're
talking about Scottish, Scotch,

Irish, American, all all that
that is, is obviously a national

kind of regulation to specify
what is and what isn't allowed

in the production of those
products.

But in terms of importance, it
will be taste profile, taste

profile will be what's important
for consumers, accessibility to

that liquid and obviously the
occasion.

It's something that's equally
important for consumers drinking

whiskey.
In in your experience, do people

know you know, the average
consumer?

Do they understand the
differences between the

different categories?
Or is it, like, a big chunk of

like, OK, this is whiskey?
I think for a lot of consumers,

especially new consumers, into
whiskey, sometimes they can just

see as one category, you know,
whiskey.

And therefore sometimes you meet
people who say that, that they

don't like whiskey, for example,
when they've tried a specific

example.
But the reality is whiskey comes

in all kinds of shapes and forms
when it comes to to liquid and

to taste profiles.
And that's why I've always

encouraged any any of my friends
or people that have come across

to say they don't like whiskey
to to try to experiment more

whiskies.
Because the reality is, and I'm

my firm believer in it, that
there's something out there,

there's a whiskey out there for
every consumer.

It's just a question of find and
which one is right for you.

The other thing you have to
remember is that a lot of

consumers come from maybe
drinking beer or wine or or

categories where the ABV is also
a lot lower and you're talking

about fet.
It's here, you know, whiskey is

a higher ABV product.
So if you're trying to drink,

especially if you're drinking in
meat or just with a little bit

of ice or water, clearly is
going to be a bit challenging

initially for some of those
consumers because you know,

they're not used to drink
something that strong.

I remember myself to be honest,
like when I I think the the

first whiskey I tried, it must
have been a lavroig.

Oh yeah.
Back in the days.

So I started like this quite
with a quite challenging let's

say distinctive taste and.
But the interesting thing for me

is that on many categories for
example even in beer I've

noticed so beer, wine and and
whiskey.

For my taste profile at least I
like to go full on on let's say

what taste can be.
So for example, I mean I

remember drinking red wines with
a lot of wood in it or Ipas with

a lot of hops in it or you know,
I love Froy with with Pete's.

Yeah.
Because the moment that you at

least this was for me like the
moment that you are challenged

by the category, then I decide,
OK, I go full on and then I go

backward and then I I build my
way into into that.

And I don't know how it is for
other consumers that, you know,

if they go more in little steps
or or actually this challenging

taste can actually help because
it, it covers a little bit

because you know, for red wine,
the wood is covering the rest.

And also if you don't actually
like wine, you know, like and

and the same thing could be with
whiskey.

You know, you, you focus on the
peat.

You know, I, I know this, for
example, a lot of people like,

prefer mezcal to tequila.
So because of the smoke and they

say, no, actually I don't drink
tequila, but I drink mezcal.

Yeah, so sometimes it's also
like the the first encounter

maybe like that got a bit of a
challenge and then you go back.

Yeah, although equally that
first encounter, if it's

something as you say, like a
lafroy got a noctemore, if

anything it can actually also
act as a dependent, it can

actually pick people off the the
the product, right?

I I think the thing to remember
is everyone's journey, it's

going to be a different one into
whiskey.

Some people go in through a
blend or something which they

think in their mind is smoother.
And I know that that people that

make whiskey don't necessarily
like to use the terms move to

define their their drink, but
because they want something

that's accessible that they can
drink easily and they can enjoy.

But you're right, what we
generally find is that people

that once they've come into the
whiskey, a lot of people will

move toward the exploration of
flavors.

So they will look for products
which may be smoky, like you

said, you know, dated, or it may
be some.

They look for products which
have been finished in different

types of casts, maybe ex shady
or export because they want some

of those drive fruit notes.
So again, it really depends on

how you've come in.
Some people will be like

yourself where they are looking
for those more extreme flavor

profiles.
But there is no one single

journey, Everyone's journey into
whiskey and into the flavors of

whiskey will be very different
in that sense what I found found

over time.
The other thing you have to

remember also is that the the
consumer of the different

subcategories can be slightly
different as well as typically

people that drink blended Scotch
for example, they tend to be a

lot more brand loyal than a
single mulch.

They tend to maybe drink that
more regularly.

Historically, if you look at
people that drunk famous gals

for examples in the UK, they
would have been probably on a

much older age profile than your
marketeer would like you to

think in terms of their target
market.

They would drink it frequently
and they knew what they liked so

they went back to it again and
again.

Whilst a single malt drinker,
and we're seeing obviously on

growth of single malt drinkers
since the inception or the

marketing I guess of single
malts as a concept in the 60s

and 70s, the single malt drinker
tends to be much more

exploratory and they are
repertoire drinkers by their

nature.
They're looking.

Yes, they may have brands that
they like, but they also like to

explore different flavors.
And I think that's quite

exciting because a ban allows
you to really showcase the

different flavor profiles that
whiskey can produce.

I remember we were discussing
this with Duncan McRae from From

Woven Now and we were talking
about the Renaissance of blended

whiskey that has been put on a
bit of a side because of, you

know, how big companies have
been treating blends, pushing it

out from the distillery and
focusing more on single malt.

So.
So there is been this thing

like, you know, people,
especially people that aren't

outside of the whiskey
categories or whiskey, they're

not whiskey drinkers.
I find that, you know, they look

at blended like a like a bit of
a down.

They look down on them, but like
single malt, whatever they can

be, it's higher.
Although they may not actually

know what single malt means, you
know, sometimes they confuse it

with single cask.
There's so much confusion.

Even people, even I've got
friends that have got, you know,

1520 bottles of whiskey at home
and when I asked them what is a

single mold, they didn't know I
mean or they thought they knew.

Let's put it in.
Some people thinks it's a single

casket comes from a single
bottle, when obviously the

reality that's not the case.
It just means it comes from a

single distillery.
But, and that's interesting

because ultimately everything is
a blend you know, in a way you

know, depending on.
The single cast, yeah.

Exactly, apart from apart from
single cast.

But like even a single malt is
technically a blend.

Yeah, is just like you know,
more looked after and then it's

higher in selection.
But if you select properly a

blend, you may find quite nice
surprises there.

Yeah, but.
But then it goes back to the how

whiskey is made and the
maturation process.

When you're trying to create
those flavors.

And ultimately most
distilleries, what they're

trying to create is as many
flavors as possible, whether

it's not because they're trying
to release a blended Scotch

product or whether that's
because they're looking to

release a single mold.
Effectively, the Whiskey blender

wants as many flavour profiles
available as possible, which is

also why in Scotland you see the
common practice within the

industry of that swap in stocks,
right?

So you have this idea of
swapping tasks of liquid with

all their distilleries so that
you can have at your disposal

more flavor profiles in order to
be able to create those blends.

Because you may put the same new
making exactly the same type of

wood, but it doesn't always
necessarily mean that you're

going to have the same outfit in
terms of that liquid profile.

Sometimes, you know, you can be
surprised.

It's not an exact science.
You know people are getting

better at defining those flavors
and what can be created, but

still not an exact science.
What I would say about blends is

it's really great to see what
people like woven people like

turntables.
Spirits is another one that's

been released more recently
where they are trying to bring

the interest, the excitement
showcase and potentially also

share what's in that blend which
is not something typically that

everyone does but obviously
Compass Box that that when they

first started and that's great
but but we can't forget that you

know the majority of the whiskey
business around the world for

Scotch at least is blend.
It's a blended Scotch market.

Bingo malts as I said started
being marketed in the 60s and

70s has done extremely well.
It's obviously a more premium

product.
So he has driven value as well

for the for the category as a
whole and that's great for the,

for the industry.
But we certainly can't forget

about the blended side of the
business, the blended Scotch

side of the business.
Going back to the this category

bridging or swapping or you know
like in terms of consumers I

like to think like I I think now
so I what was my journey into a

category.
So then I I try to recruit

people.
So for example my wife is not a

whiskey drinker and I try to
bring her in to the category,

but she's still resisting.
And for example like I I

mentioned a previous episode I
was at the whiskey fair here in

in Prague and then I was with a
friend of mine who's a, who's a

rum drinker.
He just drinks rum And then I

brought him in through a cask
through AI think it was Glenfid

21 finished in rum casks.
And you know what what's the

role for you in in bringing
people from other categories

through wood.
What's the role of Woods in in

in that is is that a, is that a
major driver like to to recruit

people?
Yeah, no.

Wood is, like I said, wood is
extremely important.

It plays a huge role in terms of
the flavor it can help create.

And what's interesting is
sometimes where you see the

association.
So whether it's a specific type

of wine or beer for example,
where the whiskey producer will

take a cask from them finish
their whiskey to try to

obviously have elements of those
flavors to influence their

whiskey.
So that that consumer you can

help bridge the gap for that
consumer to potentially try that

that whiskey and vice versa.
So that that whiskey producer

then shedding the cast back with
with the wine producer or the

beer maker or whoever so that
they can produce something

likewise.
And I think those those

associations, those
experimentations are really

interesting to help bridge the
gap as you put it.

I also think naturally and and
back to what I say about how the

product is consumed for for
consumers that are already

drinking something like a
traditional rum, whether they're

drinking a in a cocktail or
whether they're drinking in meat

or on ice or or whatever it may
be, they're already used to

drinking a distillate and you
know at 40% or more potentially

ABV and therefore it may be
easier for them to to jump into

trying another category.
So I I always have seen that

there are definitely
opportunities for whiskey

consumers to migrate between
obviously whiskey categories,

whether that's what old whiskey,
whether that's Irish, American,

whatever it may be, but equally
into rum into other categories

where you're drinking that,
that's better neat or nice or

even a simple mix, I guess mixer
I guess.

And there are people that
obviously actively out there

creating those bridges to help
the consumer also migrate

between categories.
It makes me think a lot about,

you know, how to recruit people
because because very often I

would say that it is an ABV
issue, you know, because I mean

technically all spirits are
around that 40% threshold more

or less.
But the interesting thing is

that probably there is an
element of the of the the mixer

because probably you drink more
of a highball kind of

experience, like a whiskey
highball or a gin and Sonic or a

rum and Coke or a whiskey and
Coke.

And because it's so diluted
with, you know, ice and the

mixer then that you don't think
about it because I mean nobody

drinks gin meats, you know,
unless, I mean they're like some

hardcore people do of course.
Like if I think back of for

example, my wife, you know like
she's she's more of a, you know

she she drinks spritz, she
drinks gin and Sonic.

So she doesn't think about the
ABV in the same terms as if she

was trying my drum of a single
mold, because then all of a

sudden it's just like boom, you
know, like she get, she just

gets the full ABV into into
herself, so.

It's too much of A jump for for
them, right?

As opposed, like you said, Jen
is the perfect perfect example

because most people drink it as
a gin and tonic or a gin and

some other mixer.
Therefore, are you more likely

to move towards a highball, you
know, whiskey with soda or are

you more likely to go for a
whiskey neat or on the rocks or

or wherever it may be?
Obviously the highball would be

a a better way to to help that
consumer come into the whiskey

because it's more accessible
from experience perspective,

from a flavor profile
perspective for for that

specific consumer.
But equally, you've got

consumers that have gone all the
way to the other side.

So, for example, you've got
consumers that have really gone

into the whiskey journey, go
into single malts, maybe started

exploding the flavors, and then
maybe they also get in, start

getting into the single casks.
And when you talk about single

casks, naturally they're going
to be much higher ABV, right?

You're into your 40s, fifties,
60s even.

And therefore, if you then
present to them a single malt at

40%, they are so used to
drinking within that side that

they may actually not no
appreciate as much just because

that's where they are at the
moment, that's where they are in

their whiskey journey.
Yeah, yeah.

And I like, I like, I like this
thinking because to be honest,

like you made me think when you
were saying, you know, people

that drink rum.
Because if they are for example,

people that drink rum with a
mixer, this transition may not

be that easy.
But if if they had rum drinkers

as a, you know, neat, then it
would be much easier.

So like sometimes it's like
there is a taste profile, there

is an ABV element and it depends
on you know how you bring them

in.
I like to think, I mean being

from Rome, I have this you know,
like all roads lead to Rome.

Which road do you take to get
into the city?

You know you can come from
north, you know Southeast, W

Northwest and and so on.
So you mentioned earlier about

wine for example, what about
like recruiting people into the

category from the wood angle.
So going back to the wood angle,

So if you take if you take like
a red wine drinker and then like

they made like a certain red
wine and and that red wine you

know like those casks have been
used for the finishing of a

round like could that be an
angle to to play.

Yeah, no, for sure.
And and that's what I mean, so

the the woods traditionally I
guess if we take a step back,

traditionally 80% of the
whiskeys that you see out there

have been matured in ex bourbon
casks.

So casks that or or bottles that
obviously have being used in the

production of bourbon then
obviously sold to other

industries whether that's rum,
whiskey or whatever it may be

sport etcetera.
And then on top of that you've

got your X shady Casps as well.
So they kind of dried fruit

notes and whatnot and but I
would definitely agree that

these other type of casks, these
other type of finishes and

obviously a finish would mean
that it's whether it's a few

months or a couple of years,
it's a much shorter period of

maturation in in, in exposure to
that liquid.

So.
So I definitely believe that

that is a way to bridge that gap
by having whiskies finished in

specific wine types that maybe
the consumer is familiar with

and that may be a way to bring
that wine consumer into the the

whiskey category or equally.
For a whiskey consumer to go the

other way and and and be able to
experience what some of those

flavour profiles that because
they may not be familiar with

those wines but because they're
willing to experiment because

they are over Kinch, obviously
have a repertoire of drinks they

may be willing to try those kind
of flavour profiles.

So there's there's, there's a
lot of that going on for sure.

I mean the other one that you
don't see as much, but it's

growing is the utilization of
Virgin Casks.

So casks that haven't been used
for the maturation of any

spirit.
They are fresh, they're new.

You've seen people like Dean
Stone and Glenn Alaki in

Scotland using it for finishes
in some of their whiskies.

But those in itself, I think
it's still very early days.

There's a lot the Virgin Casks
can give you, whether it's

freshness, whether it's
sweetness, spice, again, because

it depends on the type of wood.
It depends on whether it's

French, European, whether it's
American.

It depends on how you cut the
bottle inside, whether you can

increase the surface area so you
can increase the kind of

interaction between the liquid
and the wood, whether you toast

the cask, whether you charred
the cask.

Again, all of those can bring
different elements because

you're effectively changing some
of those structures within the

wood and and exposing different
compounds to the liquid.

So all of that can can help you
create different flavors.

And back to what I said at the
start, ultimately as a whiskey

maker, you're trying to create
as many different flavors as

possible because that gives you
opportunities to create

different products and.
I and I mean I guess this this

virgin caste like it brings new
components and because they

haven't been used that much in
the past, I mean at least in

Scotch, the X Bourbon where you
know the main drivers.

So what is it?
Is there like some specific

reason apart from taste profile,
even from a logistic

perspective, from a from an
industry perspective or yeah.

Some of it is historical.
The industry has used X bourbon

casts in particular, but also
casks like X Shady and the

consumer understands that
because obviously that's being

shared over time in terms of
whether it's the flavour profile

that they've created or whether
that's in terms of marketing and

packaging then and the message
to the consumers of what that

cast of what the battle that was
used to create that flavour

profile that they may or they
may like, but some of it's

commercials.
So the ex bourbon cast,

typically they will be cheaper,
right, because the Barber

industry uses it.
Once they have to dispose of

those bottles and other
industries are happy to take

which is, which is I'm I'm sure
why when a while ago, a couple

years ago, whatever it was that
the industry in the US was

talking about maybe changing the
regulations, I mean that would

be a nightmare for everyone
else, you know, because so many

of those ex bourbon casks get
used everywhere around the

world.
So I think it's both historical

and commercial.
Why X bourbon has been used and

we know what kind of flavor
profile you can create from

them, right?
And and again, the thing that a

lot of times the consumer won't
want to understand initially is

that not not every cast is the
same.

You know, a cast that you're
using it for the first time may

give you quite a lot, but then
one that has been used multiple

times, a refill, if it's been
used for the third time and it's

quite spent in terms of what he
can give, it's not going to

contribute a hell of a lot in
terms of flavor to that new

make.
But then if you're maturing for

a long time, maybe that's
something you want to have,

don't know.
But like I said, you're seeing

different types of cast coming
in and doing well.

Mr. Nada from Japan, they've
been able to translate to the

consumer what the benefits of
that are in terms of the flavor

profile.
But I do expect that there will

be more virgin casts being used
in the industry, partially

because it's all about supply
and demand in the industry.

And right now they the market in
the US is not releasing as many

casks back to the industry which
means that the price is going to

go up and with that it will get
close to the virgin bottle price

and therefore producers are
going to be more willing to to

take those because the ex
bourbon bottles may not be

available or they are the cost
may be higher than they would be

willing to pay.
It's again one of those things

like different roads to get to
the same end, and I like maybe

they do some.
For some people it would be

taste profile.
For some people it would be

costs or you know supply and
demand or whatever that that

that reason might be.
But then ultimately verging cast

could be a a a new injection
into.

Well, it's it's about managing,
it's about managing the risk,

right.
Because like I said at the

beginning, you all you're trying
to do is create as many

different flavors as possible to
give you options.

And there will be a question of
yes, you still want to produce

what you know how to produce by
the same time because you know

that the consumer with a
repertoire drinker is willing to

try and a different flavors.
You need to be able to create

different flavors and and you're
talking about years ahead,

right, if you're talking about a
full maturation.

So you're forecast plan in years
in advance.

Now if it's a cast finish better
enough because you're talking

about a few months to a few
years.

But it it's not something that's
easy for producers to to

forecast necessarily.
We we discussed before about the

taste profile.
What's the role of the target

occasion.
You know, I'm a big fan of

focusing on a target occasion,
but I want to hear your your

view on that.
What's the important of focusing

on a clear target occasion when
launching a whiskey brand?

You know, because whiskey is
very, I mean, let's say the old

ways that is perceived as a a
bit of an after dinner kind of

thing.
You don't have an aperitif with

a whiskey apart from highballs.
What's the importance of that?

To have it clear so that you
don't get relegated into a very

specific occasion where you
cannibalize each other and now

you're always fighting for the
same pie of an after dinner

experience?
It's tricky right, because

consumers will consume in a
certain way, but equally if you

can create a new way for them to
access it, it may give you a

point of difference as a new
brand or as a new release if

that, if that's what you're
looking to do.

The other thing I guess is that
the at home consumption a lot of

times is very different to on
trade consumption.

You know, at home the main
consumptions will be a quiet

night in or a drink with as a
couple or you know, to round off

the evening, whilst socially it
will more likely be a drink as a

simple mixer but equally
cocktails, classics, you know,

whether that's Rob Roy, Stroke
Manhattan, whether that's an Old

Fashioned or or or whatever it
may be.

So very different ways to
consuming it between drinking at

home, potentially neat on the
rocks and with ice, whatever it

may be with the water.
Sorry.

Or drinking it out socially.
The talk calls for within the

bar for whiskey are not even the
cocktails.

You know.
They're more likely to be a

whiskey and coke or a or a
whiskey highball.

That's the most likely top bar
calls for whiskey.

Personally, that wouldn't be
mine.

You know, I'd be going for the
classics, but that's how a lot

of people will consume it.
Going back to let's say to

recruiting people in into the
you know, if we take a side the

highballs, what do you think
would be a good cocktail to

recruit people into into the
gallery?

You know, people that are not
carried whiskey drinkers.

I would usually.
Try to tap into the creativity

of their own trade, of the of
the bar community because they

they know their audience better
than I ever will locally.

That's usually how I would try
to go.

You know use their creativity to
try to create new cocktails that

can obviously enhance specific
elements of that that whiskey,

that flavor profile date that
you have on hand.

Like I said from my side, I
think the classics are a great

way because there's enough of
the whiskey in those drinks that

you can definitely taste them.
That's from our personal

preference, my one, but equally
I'll look at formats.

I think that the recent trend
which is growing of RT DS ready

to drink premium sorry Reg to
drink cans people like white box

cocktails and and many others.
You know, I think they're great

because they deliver a great
experience to the consumer at

home especially and they're a
great way if you're if you're

looking for a way to deliver
your consumption in a quality

way, in a premium way
consistently, then they are T DS

is is an interesting route to
take as well.

Thing like there is the category
angle.

Then there is also like the
cocktail angle I feel now

because there's one of the ways
I got into drinking whiskey and

cocktails.
For example, because I'm a

granny drinker.
A friend of mine made me

discover the Boulevardier.
So that wasn't in a simple one

for me because it's like OK,
like I know two out of three

ingredients that go in here so I
can close an eye and and and and

drink it even if I don't like it
and make an effort.

And then I started to get used
to that face profile.

So for example for me Negroni, I
would call it like let's say

American or let's say the family
of Negroni is a is a very

interesting one because with the
with the surge and the

importance of Negroni nowadays
like in in cocktail menus

everywhere, you know then makes
a nice entry for me because you

can play with Mezcal with an
Agrone mescal with a Blvd.

Yeah, on and of course Blvd.
You can go all the way from

American to Irish to Scotch to
New World like you can play many

things.
So sometimes it's also very

interesting for me to to see
what does the the customer

wants.
Usually when I go to bars, I

always ask bartenders, do people
come here from a category

perspective or from a drink
perspective or from a taste

profile perspective?
It's always a mix.

You know, I always ask this
question.

I always get different answers
now because some people are what

do you like to drink?
And I'm like I like Negronis you

know But then some other people
would say oh I like citrus and

lemon red berries or Berry sweet
fruits you know like Peach or

pineapple or you know like this
kind of thing.

So you can recruit people from
from different angles but

ultimately think that if you can
stick to a certain occasion that

it makes people easier to be
recruited.

I I remember like the very first
one that I used to drink where

Jack and Coke there was there
was a client of mine and an on

trade owner when I was a sales
guy in in in Rome and he said

I'll stop by for a for a drink I
I deliver some some goods to him

and and it was evening and he
said like oh I'm having I'm

having a drink like join me at
at the table and and and I

didn't want to look you know
like you know I wasn't really a

cocktail drinker back then and I
was like 21 and he was like oh

Jack and Coke and I said what do
you want.

And I was like the same and I
had no idea what it was and then

I drank it I was like this is
really like strong but but

actually then it it was an easy
one to to enter there was so

much Coca-Cola in it that than
than than it was easy.

I feel that for me, the Jack and
Coke was an easy barkle.

If you consistently push a serve
on an occasion, then over time

you are going to be able to
recruit, I think enough

consumers into it.
I think you talked about the

Negroni being being an example.
I guess in terms of a simple

mixer, it's the the Hendricks
Jen with a cucumber that helps

with the recall, which again,
they they started at a time when

cucumbers weren't necessarily in
the in the bar, they were just

being used in the kitchen and
they have to literally deliver

cucumbers to the bars to help
them with that serve.

And it's amazing how that's
translated all the way to people

making their Hendrix and phonic
with cucumber at home.

It didn't happen overnight,
right?

I think the other thing is to
remember that sometimes don't

fight how the consumer drinks
your, your spirits.

That reminds me of a time when
we were pushing Tullamore Jew

and Grants in the Nordics.
And obviously from a masking

team perspective, they wanted to
be consumed meat or or in

cocktails or whatever it may be.
So that consumer appreciated

their quality of the liquids in
the bottle.

But the reality is a lot of it
was consumed in Irish coffees to

the extent that in in in the
Nordics you would go there and

you could select your Irish
coffee based on the whiskey

brands, right, the Irish whiskey
brands.

So don't find it sometimes, you
know, embrace it.

While opportunities may come out
of that.

And I think that that was
certainly my experience in the

Nordics when it came to Irish
coffee.

And that's very that's very
interesting what you say because

it's also like it goes back to
one topic that I discussed with

many guests here is, is that
don't think top down in terms of

creating a drinking strategy or
drink strategy or have it's

called sometimes these these
things are created in an

advertising agency or in a
marketing department without

having the feats on the ground
and the view in the market.

And then it's like yeah but if
nobody drinks it this way in

this market it it it's fine to
to push and be consistent but

you need to be able to allow
some specific localization that

can unlock some some growth that
otherwise you know wouldn't

come.
So it's always a bit of a theme

line and A and a balance between
consistency and and there and

and and again like to your
previous points on Hendricks, I

remember for myself that I I've
I have not been a drink a gin

drinker actually I was like one
of those people that said like I

don't drink gin.
So for me that the actual thing

with the cucumber, because I
don't like, I don't like citrus,

I don't like lemon in, you know
I don't like sours and I don't

like this kind of drinks.
I like more bitter profile than

sour.
So for me, gin and Sonny with

with lime or lemon, it was
really up because it's like I

didn't like gin, I didn't like
lemon, I didn't really

particularly like Indian tonic.
So for me, Gin and Sonny was

really like, wow, like that's
the last drink I'm going to

drink.
But then this way, the cucumber,

the way Hendrix was done and and
also the rise of, you know,

different kind of tonics as
well, made it so small from a

taste perspective that then it
became, for me the good to

drink.
Because then he was like, OK,

now I've got something to order
and also not to look like a bit

of an idiot at the bar when I
don't know what to have.

And then people dragged me into
a cocktail bar and it's like,

what are you having, you know?
And I don't know.

So now that's very, that's very
interesting.

And what what about moving a
little bit like because the

whole thing about building
brands bottom up for me on

trade, of course is playing a
huge role now.

But by talking to a lot of the
you know whiskey people like you

Maurice Doyle you know Duncan
McRae and you know Paul Letko

and and and so on And now now
recently to Daniel Shore it made

me think of the importance of
specific off trade into that.

So I I came up with this term
that it that I call bottom up

trade and top down trade.
So there is a lot of off trade

outlets that in which there is a
storytelling there is a

recruiting going on there is
someone between you and the

shelf.
So it's not a Tesco kind of

experience and it's not a
supermarket shelf, but it's it's

actually like a AQ rated shelf
like the one you've got put

behind you.
And what's the role of

independent bottle shops in
building a whiskey brands

compared to other categories
where on trade is actually much

more prominent.
I'm also a believer in building

brands in on trade and that's
certainly been my experience and

and actually although I came
into the industry managing

retail, I I managed Tesco
effectively and negotiated with

them when I was working at
Maxim.

When I really fell in love with
the industry and became really

passionate about it was when I
had the experience of working

with with their own trade and
everything they has to offer is

from the very top to to the
bottom of of it.

So.
So that's the first thing I

would say In terms of
independent shops, yeah, I mean,

what what they give you is they
give you a lot of knowledge

education.
They give you the opportunity to

trial a product.
They give you the opportunity to

find different products,
different brands, because a lot

of times the body of true entry
can be fairly low for them and

they're willing to trial
different products.

So the diversity of offer, it's
something really interesting.

And you have that engagement
with the people on the shop

floor in the store, which you're
not going to get online, you're

not going to get it at multiple
grocers.

So it's a really great
experience and there's a lot of

that kind of people interaction,
you know.

So there's definitely going to
be elements which are similar to

what you'd get in a great bar
talking to the bartender or

whether you're talking to that
independent shop staff member or

owner.
Because they both of them may be

very willing to share the
knowledge that they have the

experience they have or or a new
product that they've come across

they're really excited about and
they want to share that you

won't get online and you won't
get through other means.

So so they definitely form a
really important part of that

landscape especially for whiskey
as you say.

So the the independence, the
speciality stores they they are

really a key component of
building the brand for for

whiskey at least and I would
argue for Ram as well and some

other product in the UK for
example.

It's something that I would
definitely target if I was

launching a new product.
Coming from beer, you know in my

previous life off trade has
always been the volume driver

and all that.
You know that's where you get

the volume from.
You know, now you don't, you

don't build the brand.
So I've always been naturally

inclined to 1 trade.
But then if I put my, let's say,

Italian hat on, coming from
Rome, I mean, I remember myself

like going to all these nice
Innotecas in my neighborhood or

in other neighborhoods in Rome.
And I remember, for example, the

power that those in Oteca and
wine shops had in, in Brent

building as well.
Because if I came home to, you

know, like to your place for
dinner, you know, coming with a

bag of certain bottle shop, like
it was automatically a sign.

OK Oh, wow.
You bought a, you bought a

bottle there.
You know, whatever that bottle

is, it must be a good one
because that, that, that has

been curated by the owner of
that shop, you know, So it

hasn't been curated by the buyer
of a supermarket chain.

They are experts, but they look
more at margins rather than, you

know, like face profile.
And and I know you can just some

of these shop owners that
sometimes actually their

margins, they are sometimes
sacrificing some of their their

margins because they're really
keen to work with that person in

the trade or they're really keen
to bring that brand in because

again they want to be able to
offer that to to their

consumers.
You definitely get more of the

kind of people aspect of the
business as you do with their

own trade.
Typically in these independent

shops people deal with people
and you're going to want to work

with people that you like.
That's a reality, more so in

that part of the.
The trades then like I said some

of the kind of multiple grocers
where it's obviously a lot more

kind of commercially driven
negotiation.

There's a lot of other things
that you need to consider and

and take a look at.
But I I'm a big fan of

independence.
I go to my my local one fairly

frequently because obviously I
want to chat to them find out

what's happening.
They've they're, they've got

closer year to the ground than I
do.

So whether it's going to the
local 1 or to the one in the

Glasgow City center, in my case,
I try to go into them as as

often as I can.
That's all for today.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode, 42 and 43.

If you enjoyed it, please rate
it, comment and share it with

friends, and come back next week
for more insights about building

brands from the bottom up.