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Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
PJ Wehry (00:01.028)
Hello and welcome to Chasing Leviathan. I'm your host, PJ Weary, and I'm here today with Dr. Alou Waiomi. And he's the assistant professor of philosophy at Westchester University of Pennsylvania. And we're talking about his book, Foundations of Black Epistemology, Knowledge Discourse in Africana Philosophy. Dr. Alou Waiomi, wonderful to have you on today.
Bayo Oluwayomi (00:24.876)
Thank you so much, BJ. I'm happy to be here.
PJ Wehry (00:28.774)
So Dr. Alouayomi, tell me why this book?
Bayo Oluwayomi (00:34.872)
Thanks. So this book has been a book I wanted to write for a long time. When I say a long time since I started my journey into philosophy, I found out that most of the figures I was exposed to in my formative years in philosophy were mostly white men, know, the typical names, Higal and Max and all the white philosophers in the Eurocentric canon.
And so as I studied philosophy, especially in grad school, I started conceiving this idea of what would it look like to have a philosophy book that takes Black philosophers seriously, Black thinkers, and explore their intellectual works and thoughts as works of philosophy. And so the question why this book, that's sort of the motivating question.
that drove the writing of this book. So what I try to achieve with the book is truly to create a pathway within Africana philosophy where we can talk about epistemology, which is basically knowledge creation, knowledge utilization. And how can we look at the contributions that black thinkers have made through in history, specifically
say 18th century to 20th century is what I looked at in the book. So was a specific period I wanted to focus on the book for just to have a scope of writing. And I hope that answers your question.
PJ Wehry (02:13.924)
Yes, absolutely. And actually, if you'll forgive me for a little bit of a excursus here, I noticed that you had a specific time period, but an example of kind of what we're talking about is I was first exposed in theology to Augustine very early on, but it took probably a decade before anyone really mentioned that he was an African thinker. Right. And I mean, it's interesting how
And you talk about this, about whitewashing figures with problematic views, but also figures who really, you know, I mean, it's like seeing paintings of white Jesus and it's like that's not, know, Jesus was not white, right? Augustine is not some, you know, he doesn't fit in neatly into that Eurocentric philosophy, but he's so central to it. Are there...
As we kind of look at this, you talk at one of the founding concepts is canonization, or one of the main things you're talking about. Can you talk a little bit about what you see the role of the canon in philosophical education, and what are some improvements you think could be made to it?
Bayo Oluwayomi (03:34.816)
So first, we specific reference to philosophy, because once we're talking about canonization, that could be differently in psychology, could be different in biology and other fields of inquiry. But we specificize this on philosophy. It is basically a framework, a structure for how we organize ideas. So that's what canonization is really. And then it's not just the organization of ideas, but also
PJ Wehry (03:46.8)
Mm.
Bayo Oluwayomi (04:03.062)
the selection of philosophers who are deemed as important through time periods. So if you want to talk about 19th century German idealism, for instance, there are specific thinkers that are talked about in that period. That's not to say that those were the only intellectuals that lived and wrote at that time. But for some reason, the powers that be have decided
Well, to teach a 19th century German idealism course, you have to use this X, Y, and Z philosophers. So what I found out over the years, what that has done to philosophy is that it has led to what I call in my book, the erasure of blackness. So if you pick, 19th century philosophers, whatever periods you want to talk about, you cite Bradley Nietzsche.
Nietzsche is a big philosopher as talked about in Continental Philosophy. And so why Nietzsche and not all philosophers that are Black philosophers were also writing about the question of the human. So Nietzsche is often brought up about sort of questions of the human, like existential questions, questions of despair, questions of good and evil, and numerous questions that are of interest to philosophers. So then the philosophy then is a search
PJ Wehry (04:55.888)
Mm-hmm.
Bayo Oluwayomi (05:23.118)
to the answers that bothers human soul in this world, then why do we select just white voices as part of the canon and no black voices as part of the canon? And I've seen more recently what professors of philosophy would do. They would design a course that centers white thinkers, especially white male thinkers. And then toward the end, they sprinkle some black voices in there and say, well,
extra perspectives or new perspectives to the canon. So to me, Frederick Douglass is not a new perspective on the canon. Frederick Douglass always been here. And so part of how you are trained in grad school, if you're trying to be a professor of philosophy, is basically to learn the canon, which is a Euro-sensitive canon, right? And then you then replicate the same thing you've been taught over and over.
PJ Wehry (05:53.35)
Yes.
PJ Wehry (06:00.964)
Yes.
Bayo Oluwayomi (06:20.302)
So in a sense, my book is trying to, I'm unapologetic about that in my book to say, this is a book that is centering black voices and here are the reasons why. Over years, I've seen sort of the ratio of blackness, which is also a dehumanization of blackness. Because by the time you talk about the subject that knows, you're also talking about the subject that has power. And so,
for me, becomes important to write a book that is emphasizing subject that knows from the black perspective.
PJ Wehry (06:56.838)
And I just want to make sure I'm on the same track with you. When you talk about black voices in philosophy and this way of kind of peppering them in at the end, if we think of the canon as a book, black voices are treated as an appendix, which we all know is optional to read. And you can still count as reading the book, right? You can be trained in philosophy and you did the extra credit of including black voices, but it's not considered
Bayo Oluwayomi (07:13.763)
Yes.
PJ Wehry (07:25.616)
part and parcel of what you're actually like to actually be a philosopher. You have to, of course, read Kant. You have to have read Hegel's like, he does. He's not really a philosopher. He hasn't read those voices. Right. No one says, is he really a philosopher? Has he read W.E.B. Du Bois? Right. Like no one says those things. And so and so it's optional for the book, it's optional for reading for the program. It's optional for training. Is that a good way of thinking about it?
Bayo Oluwayomi (07:29.216)
or your core.
Bayo Oluwayomi (07:44.078)
Exactly.
Bayo Oluwayomi (07:53.41)
Yes. That's perfect. Very correct.
PJ Wehry (07:57.958)
Okay, awesome. I mean, not awesome. I'm glad that we're on the same page, but not. Yeah, don't clip that and put that on the internet. So who are some of the thinkers at the risk of starting with white voices? Who are some of the thinkers though, you talk about some of those thinkers are massaged so that there are certain thinkers who's
are made to be okay when really they probably should be removed from the canon because their views are problematic. Are there any that stick out to you? I mean there's some stick out in my mind but are there any that stick out to you?
Bayo Oluwayomi (08:40.558)
Yeah, I'll cite two examples that I talked about in the book. So let's take Immanuel Kant, for instance. So Immanuel Kant is a very, very philosopher in the Western philosophy canon. And part of Kant's views are deeply racist, to be very honest. I call it violently racist, like very deeply racist.
Kent doesn't believe, for instance, in anthropology from a pragmatic point of view, that Black people are actually humans. And then can you imagine the epistemic violence then that you had to then as a person of color take Kent seriously? When I was in grad school, I remember professors that were teaching Kent, they were experts on Kent.
They couldn't understand the fact that we are asking questions. How do we reconcile Kant, his philosophical views with his anthropological views, because his anthropological views are deeply problematic. And they said that we are not doing philosophy, that we are doing ideology, because you are asking difficult questions about the things this philosophers have done.
Personally for me as a professor of philosophy, when I teach current to my undergraduate students, I not only teach the critique of pure reason, I also expose the students to Kant's anthropology. Because Kant's anthropology is as important as is in the electoral works, or the electoral works that is written. Right? So that's one example. also mentioned Hegel as well.
in the book, Hagar, of course, has also deeply racist views. And some of his ideas are deeply problematic for a Black person. But when you're in philosophy, you're taught all these philosophers as if they're abstract ideas. But what they do is they tend to hide the works in which they avowed racist claims.
Bayo Oluwayomi (11:03.468)
And so for me, the task of Black philosophy for me, and I said for me, there's an anti-colonial methodology that is driving my work. There are some philosophers who are African-Americans or who Black philosophers who think the task of Black philosophy should be to sanitize White philosophy.
In other words, to critique these philosophers who have written racist ideas and reinvent what they've written and sort of clean it up. But I don't think that's my approach is not that approach. I don't believe in sanitizing that philosophy. What I want to do is I just want to talk about black thinkers and explore the genius of blackness.
That's all I want to do. I think it's a waste of my time to reconstruct Hager. When Hager was alive, he didn't want to be reconstructed. When Kant was alive, they didn't want to be reconstructed. the worst thing about some of these flaws versus like Emmanuel Kant, he never saw a black person in his lifetime, but he wrote all this nonsense about black people being inferior to white people, right? Because we know that
It was also tapping into the German racist ideas that flourished in 19th century. And so my book is unapologetic in that regard in terms of the methodology, the questions. How should we study Black ideas? How should we engage with ideas that are dehumanizing, the dehumanization of Blackness? I think, well,
We got to counter that story by speaking our own truth, by speaking our own ideas and emphasizing our own ideas. And that's what I've done in the book by looking at black thinkers, both in the United States and in Africa. And I've tried to bring forward their unique, brilliant, and exceedingly wonderful ideas that they put into writing.
PJ Wehry (13:27.334)
And I think just to add along to what you said, and I think I just want to see if I'm tracking with you. When you talk about studying Kant's anthropology and people are saying, no, that's ideology, that's not. He, when you look at the study of ethics, deontological ethics really starts with him. He's considered kind of the foundation of that. surely that counts as surely that counts as as part of philosophy.
Bayo Oluwayomi (13:57.55)
Hmm.
PJ Wehry (13:57.654)
And the man who made such a big deal out of duty, restricting, creating a boundary around who that duty really goes towards has to be part of the conversation. And I think this, as we talk about, I mentioned earlier, you talked about philosophy from elsewhere. You didn't say it in the introduction, but another thing that I've always seen, and I found myself not.
Bayo Oluwayomi (14:11.341)
Mm.
PJ Wehry (14:24.39)
having to go and look in a different section in the bookshop for black thinkers is it gets labeled critical theory, right? Because critical theory, ideology, that's a different discipline. And then there's like a, there's a tradition, there's a kind of a reverence given to philosophy, whereas critical theory is like the new kid on the block. It's new and it's exciting, but it doesn't have this august.
person to do it, if you will. Is there something I'm missing there or does that make sense?
Bayo Oluwayomi (15:03.938)
Well, so the term philosophy from elsewhere, I don't know. I didn't use that term in the book. So I don't know if you were using that to refer to a philosophy of difference. Is that what you were trying to get to?
PJ Wehry (15:16.314)
Yeah, you were talking about the, Yes, non-traditional, non-European philosophy, new perspectives. You actually have, I'm not trying to, it says philosophy from elsewhere, but that's in a list of like five different ones. Of course, I remembered the last one I read, but yeah, that's what I'm talking about. That idea of like the appendix idea, yeah.
Bayo Oluwayomi (15:22.996)
Okay. Okay.
Bayo Oluwayomi (15:38.424)
It's interesting you mentioned something about Kant's Deontology. And I guess the question is, who makes it into the fact that we have to put Kant in that pedestal? That to think about moral principles for living in this world, who cares about what Kant says? Before Kant, were human civilization existed prior to Kant.
PJ Wehry (16:29.99)
You
Bayo Oluwayomi (16:37.506)
We don't need Kant to talk about duty for us to understand the universal principles of moral engagement in the world. It's just disingenuous to me. And I think part of what my book is saying is Kant cannot even be, Kant is morally bankrupt. He cannot be the standard for talking about the ontological categories. Why? Because when he talks about
these sort of categorical imperatives for leaving. The categorical imperative assumes that all humans have the capacity to reason. So you can understand my needs, I can understand your needs, I can understand boundaries, you can understand boundaries. But what if I don't see you as human?
And that's the question. That's exactly the question. And then you see professors going to classes and teaching students about Kent having this duty ethics that applies to all people. Meanwhile, Kent doesn't think that duty ethics or what you call the ontology applies to black people. So in a sense, this unepistemic violence.
in canonization, in the injury, I'll call that sort of intellectual injury that's been done to students of color, because you're trying to force violent ideas. And then those ideas as they're masqueraded, it's like the legitimizing of myth. The Western tradition tries on this sort of a potpourri of contradiction and this mythology of
We have figured it out, but we're perfect. And because we have all these principles, yet it's one of the most bankrupt societies you can think of in the world.
Bayo Oluwayomi (18:35.928)
With all these theories, where is the West today? Where is America today? Moral bankruptcy and duplicity everywhere. Why? Because there's a fundamental crisis. The fundamental crisis of the human is coming to the fore. And so philosophy then begins to challenge us to ask those deep questions. Why do we take this philosopher seriously? Why do we take this philosopher seriously as
If you're going to teach Kant, teach Kant and teach his racism as well. If you're going to teach Hegel, you teach Hegel and teach Hegel's racism as well. Because ultimately philosophy is about truth. And the truth will set you free. It will give you freedom, intellectual freedom. And I think part of the problem of the West and America, which is also part of that nomenclature, when I use it, is guilty of this duplicity.
And that's why we are in where we are today.
PJ Wehry (19:40.324)
And think there's something that you've touched on there that in early philosophy, there was a pursuit of character along with thought. And at some point that got separated and it seems to be right around Kant, maybe a little earlier, right? And...
it's on the one hand, seems like we're returning to where the character matters. Like when you talk about truth, you're talking about truth that makes you a better person. And then it's like, wait a second, if you're going to teach these ideas, admit what they led to, right? If you're gonna like, I mean, I had numerous guests on about Heidegger and one of the questions that I ask and I think is really important, it's like, well, how do you reconcile this? And it's really interesting because it,
There's that division there of like, well, he's really brilliant, but like, yeah, that was a, that's really awkward, right? Like, don't know how to... Anyway, I apologize. It is 20 minutes in and I have not asked you about black voices. I want to hear about black voices. So...
Bayo Oluwayomi (20:39.195)
I he's...
Bayo Oluwayomi (20:45.248)
Yeah, we will talk about, you trying to refer to Heidegger's involvement with the Nazi party? Is that what you're trying to, you know, to be clear?
PJ Wehry (20:51.384)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Apologies. Yeah. That's actually I've had numerous episodes about that. But, you know, some I deeply problematic as a person, very influential for reasons that I had Dr. Lewis Gordon on and I loved it because he just point blank looked at the camera said Heidegger was a schmuck, which I. Anyways, that's a whole other that's a whole other thing.
Who do you think would be, if you could put, with the limited amount of time we have, because you have a list here in your book of the black thinkers, when you talk about the 19th century, who's someone that you think should just be automatically included in to every curriculum? That it's just like, it's astonishing that they're not.
Bayo Oluwayomi (21:47.534)
I'll start with Freddie Douglas.
Bayo Oluwayomi (21:54.734)
There's so many things we can talk about, Freddy Doglars, for the sake of what I time and also what I emphasize in my book.
Bayo Oluwayomi (22:06.136)
Douglas was not, if you're talking about a politician, an intellectual, a gifted human, that's Douglas. I'm not gonna say a lot about his story here, but when I, the first time I read the narrative of life and times of Regal Douglas.
He opened my eyes to...
Duh.
Bayo Oluwayomi (22:42.434)
the vanity of life.
Bayo Oluwayomi (22:49.454)
Because I kept asking myself, how can a nation like America is so powerful?
Bayo Oluwayomi (22:57.879)
so wealthy.
Bayo Oluwayomi (23:02.732)
criminalize the some of the most
important aspect of what it means to be human.
The desire to know.
Bayo Oluwayomi (23:17.518)
One of the most fundamental aspects of what it means to be human is this sort of curiosity that we all have. And that's why we said philosophy begins in curiosity.
Bayo Oluwayomi (23:33.665)
America.
Rode up lores.
to kill the curiosity of the black child.
I'm talking about anti-dietrocylors.
Bayo Oluwayomi (23:54.552)
So Douglas is instructive because Douglas in the midst of a society that is so hegemonic, that's gone crazy.
Douglas chose and he dared to circumvert all of that. He chose to break the chains of mental darkness. Because what I'm saying in my book, what I said in my book is the criminalization of the pursuit of knowledge for black people in America constitute a form of spiritual and physical darkness.
Bayo Oluwayomi (24:40.67)
But Douglas did not take it and say, well, I'm just going to fold my arms and tour the line. He dared. He exhibited the spirit, the African spirit.
of fearlessness.
the Nubian spirit that breaks chains and barriers to pursue knowledge by any means necessary.
As a young boy, he gave up his lunch to trade for the alphabet of the English letters.
I argued in my book that Douglas, Fred Douglas exemplifies the spirit of what it means to understand the self and build the foundations.
Bayo Oluwayomi (25:38.488)
for liberation, liberation of the self and the transformation of society.
So those were the two aspects of epistemology that I looked at in my book. And so Douglass becomes so important in 19th century because in 19th century, there were still ethnological debates happening. Ethnological debates about what constitutes the human and whether or not black people are humans. But so in that conversation, Douglass life and times exemplifies.
PJ Wehry (25:49.606)
Mm.
Bayo Oluwayomi (26:16.994)
The exception to the rule.
Bayo Oluwayomi (26:21.41)
You see, it exemplifies.
a new way to think about blackness even in the midst of this mental darkness and he said in the life and times quote I own myself no white and sliver has the authority under god and man's law to own me end of quote so what Douglas is trying to do is to say he was using the same
principles of natural law, even as a slave, to challenge America's concept of natural law.
Bayo Oluwayomi (27:08.14)
I think Douglas is one of the most intellectually gifted humans that ever lived.
Bayo Oluwayomi (27:17.549)
Not cat.
PJ Wehry (27:19.27)
I appreciate he's become the whipping boy. I think it's his duty.
Bayo Oluwayomi (27:24.206)
That was very intentional.
PJ Wehry (27:29.318)
No, I really appreciate what you're saying. think there's, when you talk about what it means to be a philosopher.
giving up your lunch for the pursuit for the love of wisdom, right? And I do think that at some point, yeah, there's also this weird love for jargon and a lack of plain speech that does slip into all this as well. Whereas like,
Frederick Douglass, I have not read a lot of his and I want, I need to read more, but he's readable, right? I, I've never had to teach Kant, thank goodness, but I'm sure that your students groan when they have to read any of Kant. I know the majority of professors have to groan when they read Kant and it's, right, we don't, mean,
When you talk about what Douglas is doing and the courage to pursue truth and the way that that is fundamentally human. I mean, even when you think about the criminalization, not every kid is going to want to learn to read on their own, but most kids are just gonna, like you would have to enforce that. It's not like, it is such a natural thing for a child to learn, right? And it's such a human thing.
really appreciated you bringing up the curiosity of that and how closely tied that is to the boundary setting, the dehumanization of the black person, the erasure. Because it's like, no, can't even have... Every kid, every kid loves to learn. They might like to learn different things. Some kids aren't big on reading, but every kid loves to learn. And we know this if we open our hearts and look at children.
PJ Wehry (29:39.782)
I'm sorry. Is there another figure that you would like to talk about or do you have anything more to say? I mean, let me not ask. I'm not going to ask. Do you have anything more to say about Frederick Douglass? Is there anything more you'd like to say on this interview about Frederick Douglass? I'm happy to hear more, but I know you always have. You guys have more, but.
Bayo Oluwayomi (29:55.437)
Yeah.
Now we can move on to the next question.
PJ Wehry (30:00.838)
So when you talk, I'm really interested because I've heard the name, that's basically, mean, unfortunately, that's all I know. Talk, if you don't mind, tell us about Ida B. Wells and the sociology of black knowledge. Part of that is because that's become a huge field in itself in the late 20th century, but she is, I didn't write, I think 18th century.
Bayo Oluwayomi (30:26.006)
No, she's 20th century.
PJ Wehry (30:27.244)
Okay. Okay. So,
Bayo Oluwayomi (30:30.498)
Yeah. 28th century. Yeah. Go ahead.
PJ Wehry (30:35.512)
All right. Yeah, no, can you talk to tell us a about Ida B. Wells and her role? Yeah.
Bayo Oluwayomi (30:38.71)
Absolutely. So.
Although she's listed as 20th century philosopher on my book, Much of her work predates her. What do I mean? She actually worked on lynchings in the South, especially in the 19th century. What is unique about this sociology of knowledge? I'm gonna try to take my time here to spell it out in very simple terms.
without jargons at all.
We have to remember, in 19th century, we still had Jim Crow laws in America.
Bayo Oluwayomi (31:29.464)
So Jim Crow Laws was essentially targeting black communities, black men, black women, black children. And part of Jim Crow Laws was the specific ways in which black men were being castrated and left.
on the allegation that they were raping white women. So just someone, a white person making that allegation is enough to get a black man lynched. So you don't have to have real evidence. And intentionally, some, we see that in history, where like Emmett Till went to a store, you know, and then we know what happened to.
the young boy that was brutally killed in Jim Crow America by white people. So this was the period of Jim Crow. What that means is in that period of Jim Crow,
Black people, once you offend a white person, you can easily be lynched. In fact, something as simple as looking at a white woman in the eyes while you're walking on the road, that's a death sentence. So that's the violence of America, Jim Crow. That's what I'm saying? And so if we take that into the conversation of Adby Wells,
So what is sociology of knowledge got to do with all of this? I guess that's the question. Well.
Bayo Oluwayomi (33:15.362)
have her friend was lynched. Her friend owned a grocery store, which I talked about in the book in the South. And it, so there's a black grocer who is a black male. There's another white grocer who's like also selling groceries and he wasn't doing well. The black shop was doing way better than it. So they were trying to get rid of that shop. So eventually they made up something, a litigation and they were trying to
just make trouble to lynch the guy. And they lynched, eventually got him killed. They lynched him. And they made a claim that he raped a white woman. So that got Ada B. Wells really piqued. And she was like, that's my friend. No. She wanted to investigate. then, so that prompted her to start to investigate the cases of lynchings to be able to
show America the truth of lynching. Because in 19th century, most white people just took it for granted that yes, black people are being lynched, they deserve it because they committed these sort of crimes against white people. And so, Ida B. Wells, when a friend was lynched and she knew him, she was like, no, this man didn't do this thing, so I have to investigate. So that led her to now, she was trying to produce knowledge.
in a context where black people are not even believed. They're not seen as humans. And then she found out that a first person testimony in epistemology, we talk about testimony. So testimony is a testimony and knowledge. It's a form of knowledge that you get through the other, right? Through sort of sometimes it's like spoken word. Someone can speak knowledge and then you get that to secondhand information. And so
PJ Wehry (34:49.382)
Hmm.
Bayo Oluwayomi (35:14.68)
Think about it, like a black person cannot give a white person in Jim Crow America, a second one information about truth and they would believe them. And so she said, you know what? I'm not going to try to do that. What I'm going to try to do is to provide empirical form of knowledge, knowledge backed by evidence. And that is the empiricist model that she created through the sociological investigation.
of lynching in the South. And guess what? actually, she's actually genius. She actually used the data set that was produced by white men.
So what she did was to go into the courthouses in the South of every place where a black person was lynched. You know, she had the red record, the book where she made a record of all the black people who have been lynched. The red book, the book of blood and the book of death. And so she used the court records and then saw the reasons why this
men were lynched and then she started investigating. So let's say for instance, she'll see in the book a name, then she goes to that community and start investigating the people. She would ask the women themselves. And what she found out was that more than half of those cases were not cases of sexual assault. They were cases of romantic relationships between white women.
who liked black men, who were in love with black men, but they couldn't in Jim Crow America because of anti miscegenation laws to make sure that they put that in the open. so providing such and precise evidence then led a lot of white people to see truth. She revealed truth to them. She gave them a mirror to remember.
Bayo Oluwayomi (37:25.878)
Richard wrote in some philosophical mirror. She gave them a mirror to see truth, not by black subjects saying it for themselves, but using the same data that had been created by white people to say, even by your own very facts, what you say about lynching is not true. And that also got a lot of white people to now start joining the anti-lynching movements. And over time, they got the numbers down. And so,
PJ Wehry (37:55.014)
Hmm.
Bayo Oluwayomi (37:56.07)
That's one of the, and she actually is one of the first black intellectuals to introduce the empiricist model of thinking, of doing epistemology into the canon. A lot of people credit W.B. Du Bois because W.B. Du Bois later would do the Atlanta study and the Philadelphia study. But before Du Bois,
PJ Wehry (38:19.302)
Mm-hmm.
Bayo Oluwayomi (38:22.956)
There was either B was Bannett. So my book was also giving a black woman her flowers. And to say she actually is the first and not W B Du Bois.
PJ Wehry (38:30.054)
Mm.
PJ Wehry (38:37.862)
Do you think, and if this is the wrong sort of question, feel free to ignore it, do you think part of the reason that W.E.B. Du Bois is often credited is because he's a man?
Bayo Oluwayomi (38:52.97)
That's a tough question to answer. I think to say yes would be too simple. I think it's more complex than that. I think it's more complex because what Ida B. was doing was seen as a form of activism. It was seen as an activist and not a creator of knowledge. So because W. Du Bois have a PhD, he was seen more
PJ Wehry (38:58.458)
Yeah, that's fair.
PJ Wehry (39:08.057)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Bayo Oluwayomi (39:20.206)
as a creator of knowledge. So I would say it's the same Western elitist thing of like having a PhD makes you now a source, a master of knowledge and not necessarily the gender side. Because I also talked about in the book, she critiqued a lot of white feminists for what they've done to black women. And all of that, I talked about that in the book as well. So I don't think it's as simple as the gender part, but I think it's more about
the complexity of activist and scholar perspective.
PJ Wehry (39:51.814)
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you. And I apologize for the ignorance of that question. was just trying to... That helps. So... I want to be respectful of your time. I did want to ask about... I am not familiar with the name Huey P. Newton and intercommunalism. Holy smokes. I did not expect that word to trip me up, but it did. Can you explain what intercommunalism is?
and what his contribution was.
Bayo Oluwayomi (40:25.89)
Thanks. So Hugh P. Newton is one of the founders of the Black Panther Party.
PJ Wehry (40:32.739)
Okay.
Bayo Oluwayomi (40:34.176)
Yeah, so the Black Panthers, you know, I wouldn't go into the history, but he was sort of the philosophical brain behind sort of a lot of the work that he did. know, he was the one who did a lot of the philosophical ideas that was from Hupin. But with specific...
response to the answer about revolutionary and tacit monalism and I'm trying to figure out how much I want to say, you know, how much background information I want to bring into it to make it make sense. That's why I'm like kind of think about what I'm trying to say. It is basically a move between Black nationalism
Bayo Oluwayomi (41:29.966)
Are you there?
PJ Wehry (41:31.546)
Yes, I am here. I'm sorry. I was looking up. I was trying to orient myself. I'm like, is Fred Hampton connected with Huey Pune? Okay. Okay. That's I was, I was, I didn't want to, I didn't want to interrupt you, but I wanted to see if I was on the right track. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead.
Bayo Oluwayomi (41:38.07)
Yes, Fred Hampton is connected. Fred Hampton is connected.
Bayo Oluwayomi (41:47.15)
So, Fred Amting was the leader of the Black Panther Party in Chicago. know, then Nitton is the Minister of Defense, sort of national leader for the organization. So, Hupe Nitton, I think two things. In the book, wanted to, a lot of people look at Hupe Nitton as a troublemaker. A lot of people fear him because we know that the Panthers
PJ Wehry (41:54.106)
Yes, got it.
PJ Wehry (42:00.62)
Okay, I'm set.
Bayo Oluwayomi (42:17.006)
were about violent resistance. You know, they believe in the power of the gun as for self-defense. And so a lot of people are afraid of the Black Panthers. You know, it's even hard to teach the Black Panthers today, especially with the climate we're in, which I understand. But they are parts of American history. If we're speaking the truth of history, we have to talk about what the Black Panthers were.
PJ Wehry (42:39.462)
Mm-hmm.
Bayo Oluwayomi (42:47.092)
what they believed in, not only what they believed in, what they lived by. Many of them lived and died by the principles they professed, which is Black self-defense by any means necessary. And so to understand revolutionary intercommunalism, we have to first understand the imperialism of America.
Bayo Oluwayomi (43:11.532)
So Hugh P. Newton believed that black people were colonized people within the colony. So it's sort of this sort of system of internal colonialism going on. So America being the empire in a purely state, it's oppressive to the colonized people, which are black people here. And that comes with how...
white police officers were mistreating and dehumanizing black people in Oakland, California in the 1970s, 1980s and so on. And they got sick and tired of white police officers going to the black community, harassing black people. They got sick and tired of it. And they did something about it. They were not going to preach about nonviolence. They were about, we are going to fight
fire with fire. so, Hugh Pugh, then was basically he thought one way to destroy this empire, the American government, of course, we know Hoover and Edgar Hoover, was the infamous leader of the FBI had the Cointreau and to try to destroy the Black Panthers. And we know that. And so that's what these guys were facing. In fact, Fred Hampton was murdered in his sleep.
by the Chicago police when he was 17, they shot and killed him. I always tell my students this, think about the level of fear the American government would have for a 17 year old kid that they had to send that amount of police officers to go shoot him up in his sleep to kill him. 17 year old, he's not 18 yet, a teenager. Scared the hell out of America, right?
The ideas were simply that they were going to fight the state, the repressive state. And so one way to fight the repressive state, they started with something called Black nationalism. So Black nationalism is basically seeing Black people as a nation that is being captive, as a captive nation within the empire that needs to rupture it from within. It's sort of...
Bayo Oluwayomi (45:37.23)
What this philosopher, Mayer calls sort of volcanic eruptions of those who have been oppressed, the ethics of liberation to cite Duzell or to cite Leonard Harris sort of an insurrectionist ethics, right? Where from being there will be an insurrection and that insurrection will talk about Black people as a nation and as a nation of people.
they're not gonna be under the chains of the oppressor. So black nationalism, Hugh P. Newton later then discovered that for black nationalism or any nationalist idea to work, they also need land.
So there's no nation. So if you're trying to say you're a nation, you have to have a geographic space that is for you. And then it's like, well, we can realistically claim this United States, we need to find our own path. So if he found out that black nationality was very restrictive in that sense, because at the later part of his sort of
PJ Wehry (46:25.445)
Hmm.
PJ Wehry (46:28.88)
Yeah.
Bayo Oluwayomi (46:54.132)
of work, he discovered that the fight is not just America's fight against people of color, it's not just against black people in the United States, but it's against people of color everywhere in the world. So think about Vietnam, think about Africa, think about the Caribbean. And so revolutionary inter-communalism became the harnessing.
of war people's revolution against American empire, the American repressive state, right? So basically, what makes it in the communism is a band of brothers, a band of brothers and sisters from around the world who are people of other who are now united against one common enemy, the United States.
PJ Wehry (47:43.814)
Hmm.
PJ Wehry (47:54.31)
And I know you have, I wanna be respectful of time. And so one, I really appreciate the answer. was a great answer and I learned a lot. For sake of time, if I could ask one last question. For someone who's listened for the last 40, 45 minutes.
what would you recommend after hearing this that they go out and do or meditate on over the next week in response to this? What's something immediate someone can either meditate on, read, or excuse me, besides buying and reading your excellent book, which is first and foremost, what is something else, besides buying and reading your book, what is something else someone can meditate on or think or do over the next week in response?
Bayo Oluwayomi (48:28.832)
Yeah
Bayo Oluwayomi (48:41.048)
think read the autobiography of Macomex.
Bayo Oluwayomi (48:51.072)
reason why said that it will respond to a lot of things that I shared about in my book. It will also respond to a lot of things happening in society today.
PJ Wehry (49:05.133)
I will say that is one of the most actionable and direct responses I've ever gotten that question. I really appreciate that because a lot of philosophy professors, it becomes this long winding kind of vague response. Thank you. That's really helpful. Dr. Alou Waioumi, wonderful to have you on today. It has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.
Bayo Oluwayomi (49:28.248)
Thank you so much, PJ. I appreciate it.