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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
Product marketers
everywhere are feeling this.
Product teams are
shipping faster than ever.
It has dramatically
accelerated how quickly
features get built,
tested, and released.
But while product velocity
has fundamentally changed,
many PMMs are still operating
on the same quarterly rhythms
we've relied on for years, and
many PMMs feel like they're
constantly reacting instead
of actually driving strategy.
Don't worry, we
have a fix for you.
With that, today it is
my pleasure to have Steve
Schuler on the show.
Steve has spent his career
at the leading edge of a
number of technology trends
like mobile marketing,
customer data infrastructure,
and now how AI-powered
products and systems
affect our everyday use.
Today, he helps product
marketers rethink how they
operate in an AI-first
world with a focus on
building systems that scale
knowledge instead of simply
producing more content.
If you've come across
his writing on LinkedIn,
you'll know he has a knack
for turning complicated
AI conversations into
practical frameworks that
PMMs can actually use.
Steve, it's amazing to
have you on the show
El, thanks so much.
It's wonderful to be here
All right.
So before we actually
dive into this big
topic today, let's bring
everyone up to speed.
You were recently at a
company, and you noticed
this trend, as many of
us have experienced it
firsthand, this trend where
product marketing teams are
struggling to keep up with
product because AI lets us
move at the speed of light.
So tell me more
about that moment
Yeah.
Um, I think there were
really three things
that I picked up on.
Uh, number one is that product
and engineering teams can ship
today in a way that they've
never been able to before.
they're like talking about
things like weekly release
cadences and six-month
roadmaps instead of,
you know, year roadmaps
or two-year roadmaps.
But PMM teams are still
often working on a quarterly
rhythm because that's what
we've been used to, um, and
that's sort of what we've been
drilled to deliver to sales.
I think the second sy- you
know, symptom of this, uh,
challenge that I've seen is
that the best customer intel
is now just trapped in all
these disconnected tools.
You might have,
support tickets from
customers in one place.
Product's got a notion that
they maintain that has all
their interview transcripts
and product information.
Sales is in Gong, and
then there's this, like,
loose information in Slack
that's just all over the
place, um, and it's hard
to pull it together.
and then really the last
thing is, uh, you know,
marketing teams themselves,
we've got this incredible
power now to create
more content so quickly.
But, uh, what I've seen
is some teams creating
sloppy content faster.
and that's not the answer.
Uh, we've all seen these
posts on LinkedIn that you
know are written by AI, and
it's just such a turnoff.
Uh, and I think that we can
all do a much better job.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh, I, uh, so much of
what you're saying resonates
so much with me because I feel
like for product marketers,
I see two really big, I don't
know, maybe symptoms, as you
were saying, is part, is, is
what I'm trying to say here.
But first and foremost, it's
the stress of keeping up
with the cadence of release.
And then second, now we have
this large volume of releases,
whether they're small
feature releases or larger
actual product releases,
and we are the ones who are
responsible for communicating
that to our customers.
And while AI has accelerated
our ability to do it,
that doesn't mean that the
humans who are receiving the
information, our customers,
can keep up with the volume of
content that's coming at them.
So the answer isn't produce
more content because I
don't think our customers
can… Like, they're,
they're already maxed out.
They've been ma- we've been
maxed out for years, so,
so we can't just do more.
So our jobs as product
marketers have ac-
has actually become a
bit more interesting
because now we, as you
pointed out, we have to be
a little bit more thoughtful
with how we're packaging
up all this information.
Um, and yes, using AI
not to produce, like, the
sloppiness, but I think that's
kind of… I don't think
it's because PMMs want to.
I think we've just been
in reaction mode, and I'm
trying to keep my job.
I'm trying to keep product
happy, my stakeholders happy.
I just want, I just gotta put
something out there, so I'm
gonna use AI and just push it.
And so I think that's
how we got here.
So, um, but the good news
is, especially with all the
chatter that we've seen across
various marketing communities,
we know it's a problem.
We wanna get out of
it, so how do we do it?
Yeah.
Uh, I, I totally feel
what you're describing.
It, it was, you know, it was
like being on your back foot.
It was like, feeling like
you have to be in reaction
mode, all of that, right?
It's just like, oh my
gosh, I have to keep
up with all this stuff.
So like, I just like paused
one day and I took a breath
and I was like, all right, I
gotta go back to basics here.
Like, how do you take on any
product marketing challenge?
And so, I'd given some thought
to this like a few years
ago, actually, even before,
this, uh, AI stuff, um,
you know, really exploded.
And, there was a group
called Product School.
They're in San Francisco,
and they do all different
kinds of classes for
people that wanna learn
about project management.
And they reached out to me and
they said, "Hey, come teach
these product managers and
emerging entrepreneurs about
product marketing. What do
they need to know?" So I came
up with a framework, right?
PMMs love a good
framework.
I was like, I need I
need my own framework.
So I came up with this
framework, 3D product
marketing, right?
Amazing.
Brilliant, right?
Um, well, the three
Ds are, uh, data,
decision, and delivery.
And, uh, data is all
about collecting market
information, right?
What are your
customers saying?
What are your
competitors doing?
The decisioning is all
about, hey, what's the
messaging, positioning,
go-to-market strategy?
And then the delivery is,
how does this come to life
in a one-sheet, on a website,
in an email, at an event?
but I think the challenge
with that for a long time
was that we spent so much
time on the data collection
and the data and the, the
just project delivery that
we didn't spend as much
time on the decision-making.
And that's how I think
we go from being on our
back foot to being on our
front foot and offering
more to sales and product.
We use the AI for the data
collection and the delivery,
and we use what we're great
at, the decision-making,
and get to actually spend
more time there, um, because
we have these tools that
can do a lot of the rote
work much more quickly.
So in that moment when
you realized that you had
you know, you have your
framework and you're in
that moment yourself as a
product marketing leader,
you've got your stakeholders
who are like, "Move faster,
move faster, move faster."
how did you actually-- I
guess, like, and walk us
through your thinking around,
like, what you decided to
build that's incorporating
this, 3D framework that
sou-sounds like it's kind of
your fundamental, philosophy
as a product marketer.
Um, so talk through
what that looks like.
Yeah.
that's the guiding philosophy.
But where AI comes in here
and where I think, uh, you
know, we can really accelerate
work is, is building, like an
always-on intelligent system.
and the idea is that this is
collecting that information,
it's synthesizing it, it's
alerting you when there's
something that you need to
know about, and then it's
improving too when it gets a
signal that there's a trend
that's popped up in gong
calls and all of the people
in your, you know, key persona
have started saying this
one thing that needs to be
incorporated back into the
persona docs that you have,
so that the next time you
write an email, that new sort
of important thing for that
audience is incorporated.
Um, so it's about wiring
all these different things
up and creating this loop.
right?
Still employing the, the
three Ds, but, uh, doing it
in a really modern way with
AI tools at the center of it.
Can I just say that I
love that you didn't start
with writing prompts?
Like, I feel like AI has moved
so quickly that now, uh, I
hate to make this analogy,
but it's almost like, it's
almost like the old school
version of like, you know
how younger generations will
poke fun at their elders a
little bit for, you know,
not knowing how to do things.
I feel like now if you're
a marketer who's, like,
still just writing prompts,
it's kind of like, "Who
even are you? Get out of
here. You can't even save a
PDF." You know what I mean?
It's like one of those type of
yeah, We're, we're not, we're
not gonna okay boomer this.
We're, we're
yeah, yes.
They… I didn't want to say
it, but, but yes, exactly.
But it's moving so
quickly that now it's,
um, doesn't matter.
Just take your age out of it.
It doesn't matter.
If you're just, if you're
behind, you're behind.
so okay, you're starting with
the knowledge, which I think
is so smart, and actually
let, let me take that back.
You're starting with
your framework, your
philosophy as a marketer.
and then, with that comes
the knowledge component.
So once you build the
system, like, what actually
changed for you as you put
the system in place and
started putting into action?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, we, we can
talk about how to build
it in a second, but, the
results that we were really
looking for was, like, faster
execution, like for PMMs.
So, like, make
our lives easier.
better consistency, right?
That messaging doc that
you spent all that time
slaving over, like, does that
message come through in the
fourth email in the sequence
that the BDR sends out?
it, you know, you can help,
uh, you can help do that.
You get better alignment
across teams, right?
Yes, maybe you talk to sales,
but, are the CSNs, are the
SEs, uh, you know, all these
other stakeholders, are
they saying the same thing?
you know, do you build
stakeholder trust?
you know, is, is product
inviting you to more
meetings because you have a
unique view on the market?
and, uh, are you doing,
like, less redundant work?
you know, you're not
writing the same email
over and over again.
You're, customizing
it now, right?
You're writing it for this
vertical, then the next
one, then the next one.
and, uh, you're, you're
doing things that, uh, you
know, really add value that
we never had the power to
do before because you can
deliver so much faster
Yes, and I just want to
reiterate something that I
realized as you were talking,
and this relates back to
your framework, right?
Like you said at the start
here that the whole purpose
of this was not to do more
work, not to produce a more
vol- a larger volume of work,
but to spend more time in
that decision part of the
job, and now you can do that.
So it's, it's trading
off where you're
putting your energy.
so I just wanted
to call that out.
That was a, a big takeaway
for me as you were talking
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, and, and like, I mean,
just for me, like that's
the part of the job I love.
That's why I
started doing this.
That was what
people promised me.
Oh, PMM, it's so strategic.
And then I'm on like, you
know, you know, after work
writing the one sheet and
you're just like, this
does not feel strategic.
Um, but, uh, but, but this
is how I think you, you get
some of that, you get some
of that leverage back is,
uh, you build the system.
Uh, the system helps you
abstract away some of the
things that used to take a
long time, and now you can
be more thoughtful and you're
being, uh, you know, more well
informed because you have a
broader view of the market
Yes, exactly.
Okay, so I'm sure there are
PMMs listening right now
who are thinking, "Okay, I
really want this." So let's
turn this into a playbook.
we will role play for a second
and assume that you are my PMM
coach, and I want to become an
AI first PMM, and I'm trying
to build up that system.
What's step one?
Where do I get
started on this?
Yeah.
again, it doesn't start
with writing a prompt.
What it actually starts with
is what I would call mapping
your knowledge foundation.
So just like think about
your organization and all
the places that information
about your customers, your
competitors, and market
trends actually lives.
it's Gong, it's Slack,
it might be Zendesk if
you use them for support.
Uh, I mentioned, you
know, product teams
working in Notion.
it's the customer interviews
that are hidden in Zoom
recordings on some G Drive.
All of this stuff is
out there, it's in your
organization, and the first
thing I would recommend
anyone to do is to actually,
you know, think about what
they have access to and kind
of map it out, um, before
taking any next steps.
I think that's a really good
step to do even if you're
not building an AI, um,
model because it's a step,
especially if you're, like,
starting somewhere new, it's
a step that I think lot of
marketers forget to take,
and then you have resources
and that you just forget
about or don't know
that you have access to.
So great idea.
Got it.
Okay, step one, map all
of the potential data
sources or places where
knowledge could be hiding
inside your organization.
What's next?
Uh, yeah, still not
writing prompts.
next?
thing to do is talk
to stakeholders.
and, uh, right.
I mean, it's, it's business.
You gotta have the
relationships with the
folks, uh, and you need
to understand what do the
product managers need?
Where do they feel like
they, uh, you know, don't
have a view into what
competitor X is doing?
Um, what does sales need?
Which, which emerging trend
are they following, um, but
don't know enough about?
the demand gen team
and your own marketing
organization, right?
Do they need to know, uh,
what's working, what topics
are, are trending right now?
Uh, you can help
them with that.
Brand might be thinking about
what the persona cares about.
and, uh, even customer success
orgs, you know, they, they
wanna know how does the
product that we're trying to
upsell, uh, relate to things
that my customer cares about?
Um, and I think all those
things are, are things that,
um, you can pull from that
knowledge base that we were
just talking about, but you
need to ask and find out
from all these different
stakeholders, uh, what they
actually need in that moment
I love this, and I'm gonna
add up a little personal
experience here that's not
necessarily related to, AI,
but I think it could be.
So when I was at Cisco, a
ton of stakeholders, so many
stakeholders, I couldn't
possibly remember all of them,
so I had to make … There's
so many, and I'm sure it's
like that at many companies,
but I was very overwhelmed
with how many stakeholders
I had at, at Cisco.
So I literally made a table,
like a spreadsheet, that had
everything that you're saying.
It had all my stakeholders.
It had the things that they
cared about, the things that
they wanted to learn, the
things that they wanted to
know, obviously who they were.
It had so much information
on it, but I didn't
keep it to myself.
So for example, like
when I met with my
product stakeholder or my
demand gen stakeholder, I
showed them the whole table
so that they knew what I
was doing with all of my
stakeholders, and I felt like
that level of transparency,
it earned trust, like they
knew what I was… It let
each individual stakeholder
know, first of all, that I was
managing so many stakeholders.
So I was given some
grace when I needed it.
But two, they knew
that I was solving for
something pretty complex.
and then, uh, what I could
imagine, how I could imagine
this being adapted for
something like what you're
doing is adding in, you know,
some column related to, you
know, what we hope to get out
of this with AI or whatever,
whatever we're, we're building
with AI so that we can be a
little bit more proactive and
feel more like we're doing
it as a team, not just I'm
delivering something to them.
so just a little tip.
That's something
what I would do.
Would you suggest that
I do that, or is there
anything that you would
add to that type of
I think that's a wonderful
idea, especially, um, in
large organizations, but also
in smaller ones, because,
e-even at a company that might
be, you know, 300 people,
200 people, the number of
different departments and
teams and sub-teams that
are asking for a PMM's
time in one way or another
gets big pretty quick.
Um, I think we've
all experienced that.
So, uh, yeah, map it
out, uh, and then add
that column, right?
Hey, what do they need as
an output of this system?
What do they wanna
know more about?
and then those become
your, your first early
wins that build that
credibility, so then you
get that seat at the table?
and help with the
strategic decision-making.
Yes, I love that.
Um, so step one is map
the, the knowledge sources.
Step two is map the
people, the stakeholders.
What is step three?
So, uh, next step I
would say is to start
building the system.
Um, but I started in a
very specific spot, right?
If we go back to that 3D
product marketing, the second
thing we're talking about
here is like these decisions,
and I don't think we always
talk about some of the
decisions that we make using
that term, but it's like,
hey, what's our brand voice?
Who are our personas and
what do they care about?
What's our ICP?
Um, which verticals are
we playing in and, uh,
what matters to them?
What are the key trends
in their industries?
And so all of these
become what I call golden
docs, and that ends
up being the knowledge
base that all of your AI
answers are pulled from.
And if that knowledge base
is complete and informed,
um, from all of this live
information that's coming in
and from your team and your
peers and partners putting
thought into, for example,
what that brand voice is
and making it really, uh,
specific to you and your
customers, now you've got,
the foundation for AI outputs
that are highly relevant in
your voice, and that you can
produce quickly and easily.
I love that you said that.
Um, and then I'm gonna
share an insight that I
have, and I hope this is,
is validating for you, too.
You are maybe the fourth or
fifth of my podcast guests
who has talked about building
some kind of AI system, and
when we t- start talking
about how we build it,
this is the first
thing they say.
They say to have--
I've had another guest
call it a manifesto.
I had another guest call
it, um, she called it her,
like, messaging house,
but it was basically this,
there, it's everything
that you just described.
It's the, brand guidelines.
It's the persona documents.
It's the market research.
It's the source that you
want your AI system to
pull from in order to
reduce hallucinations and,
you know, all that good stuff.
So I'm seeing that as a
trend for product marketers,
and I really, I just, it's,
and it's, I'm especially
noticing it from all-star
product marketers like
yourself who you understand
how product marketing works.
You're an expert in your
field, so you're still doing
the product marketing work.
You're just using AI to
do it sharper and not
necessarily do it faster,
but to trade off where
you're spending your efforts.
Yeah, and I, I'm
encouraging people to
spend time on this step,
right?
this is where you wanna
put that thought in.
Um, and if you do wanna
like, you know, look good
in front of your technical
stakeholders, the term that
I've heard used for this is
a RAG database RAG stands
for Retrieval Augmented
Generation, which in plain
English basically just means
when I tell Claude to write
a, you know, one sheet, it
retrieves the information
from the set of knowledge
docs that I've created
the RAG database
from the RAG database.
So if you wanna tell
your stakeholders
that you're creating a
RAG-powered knowledge base,
this is
what it
Here you go.
That's a good tip.
okay.
Give me now some examples,
like once you actually, you
do the PMM work of building
out the persona documents
and … Actually, I have a
question on that real quick.
When you're building out
those core documents,
I'm just gonna reiterate
what I think you said.
You talked about
persona docs, ICP docs.
Um, are there specific
things that you would always
include in those golden
docs, or does it change
depending on the company?
Uh, I, I think those
are relevant to almost
every PMM job I've had.
The, the other couple
things that I would add,
is certainly the product
documentation and messaging.
So like your PMM messaging
doc that you create, the
PRD that the product team
creates, those should
be in there as well.
and then I've had a
lot of success, putting
into that knowledge base
what good looks like.
So like, what's an example of
your best performing content?
which was the email
that got the most opens?
What's the social post
that got the most clicks?
Put
that in there.
That's a really good idea.
And then put in a
couple examples of what
bad looks like too.
Could be your own stuff,
could be stuff that, you
know, you found online, but,
I find some of the AI tools
I use in particular are great
at, you know, me giving it
something and saying, "Hey,
this, this sounds terrible.
It sounds like it was
written by AI." And
then it'll be like,
"You're absolutely right.
This was written by
AI, and here are the
things I'm not gonna do.
You know, fewer em dashes
and, um, I'm not gonna
phrase things that way."
And it'll, it'll come up
with rules on its own about
how it's supposed to write,
and then that, you know,
stays in the system forever.
Um, and your outputs
just get that much better
It's a really good idea.
okay.
So quick question.
When you're developing
out some of those-- I'm
gonna, I'm gonna, we're
gonna come back to the
AI, workload in a minute.
But, just speaking to some
of those foundational, the
golden documents as you were
describing, are there any
tools that you use to create
those golden documents?
Like, are there, databases,
customer surveying tools,
market research tools
that are kind of like
your go-to preferred tools
to try to create those?
Or i- are you starting very
much from scratch where
you're using first-hand,
data like customer interviews
and that kind of stuff?
Yeah.
Uh, I mean, I, I always love
a good customer interview,
but, uh, that's where I
think that things like the
Gong transcripts and the
product team, you know,
Zoom calls that are on the
G Drive and, you know, the
persona doc, can start to
get fed by those sources.
And what you wanna do
is get information.
In the most basic form, it
can just be like, "Hey, let's,
comb through all these things.
Let's find every time,
uh, we have a conversation
with a CTO and what
are they talking about?
What do they care about?
Hey, AI, help me synthesize
this." And then that's
something that, you know, at
some point you can wire in and
it can update automatically,
but you don't have to do that.
You can just copy and paste.
and it's great at looking
across 1,000 Gong calls and,
uh, a bunch of disparate,
uh, things on G Drives and
then pulling out trends.
Read them yourself, think
through whether they make
sense, pressure test them
with your peers, but then
put them in that persona
doc and now every time you
write an email to a CTO,
it's gonna draw off of that.
and, you know, it'll just make
it resonate with your audience
that much more, and hopefully
that leads to things like, you
know, more click-throughs and,
and more pipeline eventually.
Yeah.
I'm gonna, uh, repeat, uh,
something you said, and that's
to pressure test it yourself,
read it for yourself.
I feel like that's
the decision D
Exactly.
Yes, Yes
Like apply your judgment.
This is like-- D-don't
let the AI take away like
the fun part of the job.
you know, get this
information, apply your own
critical thinking, Right.
Everyone listening to
this podcast is super
smart, I guarantee you.
listen to your gut, uh, you
know, share it with your
peers, uh, and then codify it.
Put it in that persona
doc, and then use that
as the foundation for all
of your launch materials
when the time is right
Right.
Exactly.
okay, so coming back to this
AI system that you built,
can you give us some examples
of what kind of deliverables
you were able to crank out?
Yeah, absolutely.
so I'll, I'll tell you
one story, then I'll list
a couple other things.
But, um, probably the earliest
win that I had, uh, when
I started to experiment
with this stuff, and maybe
the easiest agent to set
up was, uh, something
that I called a real-time
sales enablement agent.
And basically, what it was,
uh, was, you know, a couple
years worth of competitor,
uh, battle cards, different
trainings we had done at
like things like sales
kickoff and stuff like that.
And it had great information.
It had the objection handling,
the trap setting questions.
It had information about how
our competitors tried to seed
FUD with our clients, right?
Fear, uncertainty, and doubt
about our own product, um, and
how to answer those things.
Even more technical
things, "Hey, you know,
if you encounter this, uh,
competitor, talk about this
architecture because that's
how we stack up to them."
All that stuff was in there,
but like, it was buried
in a system somewhere.
People had to go
look at the deck.
Maybe
good
say slide, slide
number 28 of a
Yeah.
deck.
Yeah.
Exactly.
You know, maybe, maybe the
best salespeople read it.
Maybe of those best
salespeople, a couple
of them used it.
but what we did was we just
took all this information, we
put it into, uh, NotebookLM,
which is a free Google tool.
Almost everyone here
that's using Google Docs
probably has access to it.
And we just said, "Hey,
you know, this is your,
uh, knowledge base, all
of this information.
We're gonna train the sales
team how to use this." And
then sales could just go
there literally on a live
call with a prospect and
be like, "Oh boy, this
competitor just came up.
What's a trap-setting question
I should ask right now?"
And it would just give them
the answer in the chat live
while they were on the phone.
And the usage of those
docs just became so much
more valuable because
we changed the format,
that people were using it
in.
it's amazing.
And it was like overnight,
um, you know, I had people
being like, "Oh man, I
didn't know we had this info.
That agent's so great.
Why didn't we have
this before?" And I was
like, "Oh my God, we've
had this for years.
How can you say that?"
But, but you gotta meet
people where they are.
and you know, maybe someone
was a new sales rep or maybe,
you know, they were, you
know, getting coffee during
the sales kickoff when,
you know, this section came
up or whatever, and they,
and they just missed it.
And, um, and now they had
access to it in a way that
they never did before.
And what we saw, you know,
as a result was moving,
folks from, uh, stage one
to stage two more quickly.
It accelerated deal velocity
because instead of being like,
"Hey, you know, let me get
back to you about that," or
like the competitor comes up
and then you follow up with an
email a few days later, it's
like, no, it's right here.
I can address it on the call.
And it did make
things go more quickly
And you know
what's really cool?
That's just one agent.
Just one.
What are the other ones?
Yeah.
I mean, I-I-- to give you
just a couple examples.
Another one, um, that
was really successful
was a launch agent.
and so, like, every PMM
probably has that, doc with
all the rows, like when we
have a big launch, like,
you know, oh, it's a tier
one launch, like, what's
everything on the checklist?
And, uh, we just trained an
agent to say, like: "Hey, uh,
when we have a big launch,
we need, uh, three social
posts, we need a blog post,
we need a press release,
and, uh, we need web page
copy," and just said: "Okay,
draw off of all these things
in the knowledge base.
This is the persona
we're going after.
you know, this is the
information you have.
Here's the PRD
about the product.
you write this stuff." And
it can spin that up fast.
And now you've got a pretty
good first draft of about 12
assets that probably would've
taken someone two weeks to
write, and then, you know,
spend time editing it Or more.
right?
If they're busy, you know,
maybe they don't get to it.
but you've got that stuff
immediately, and you can
start socializing it.
And then, you know, it
totally shifts the dynamic
because you go to product,
you know, you get this output,
you tweak a couple things,
and then you go, "Hey, you
know, here's all the stuff
that I think we should send
out. Give me your feedback."
And you're doing that
a month before launch.
It's not the night before, and
they're saying, "I don't have
time," and then they don't
disagree with it, you know,
or then they disagree with it
and they, they wanna change
things, and everyone's kinda
getting nervous and frazzled.
it just changes that dynamic,
um, when you can produce
that stuff so quickly.
so I think that
was a great one.
And another one I'll just plug
is an analyst relations agent.
you know, taking all the
information, you know, that
your SEs have probably stored
somewhere in their own, like,
SE Google Drive file, and
then, uh, scraping all of the,
pages on your doc site, and
putting that into an analyst
relations agent just allows
you to fill out those analyst
RFI questions so much faster.
and you're doing that,
you're, you're vetting those
answers, you're sharing them
with everyone, but you get
that first draft so much
more quickly, and then you
can spend a lot more time
talking about what should our
strategy be going into this
call, instead of spending all
the time just, like, writing
answers to 200 questions about
whether you have one feature
Yes.
Oh my gosh, I bet there is
a PMM crying happy tears
right now imagining using
something like this because
hours and hours and hours
can be spent just finding
the information you need to
fill out those questions, let
alone like writing them in a
manner that you feel like is
perfect for the RFI and, uh,
it's just, it's, um, can--
it's incredibly tedious.
And, but to your point,
like spending the time, it's
again back to the d- the
decision D, talking about
the strategy, like a shift in
where you're in, in efforts,
not more work, a shift in
efforts, which I, I just
really love that it works so
And I, we haven't mentioned
this yet, but I think a, a
key piece of that is that
when PMM continues to own
that decision-making, people
talk about, "Oh, is AI
gonna replace jobs," right?
Like, this is where
knowledge workers can't
be replaced, right?
We can accelerate what
we're doing, but then, uh,
by taking ownership of the
decision-making process
and bringing all those
stakeholders together,
you actually create
more power for yourself.
This is how AI, you
know, enhances our
abilities, not replaces us
Yep.
Oh, 100%, I could
not agree more.
Okay, so talk to me a
little about adoption
for all of this.
Like, are you the, uh,
you talked a little bit
about with, uh, the sales
enablement example, which
is an incredible, like,
you know, overnight success
in terms of adoption.
But is there anything else
that you would recommend, just
in general as you're spinning
up some of these types of
agents, how to ensure that
our stakeholders or whether
it's, um, I mean, obviously,
if you're building it for
yourself, you're gonna use
it, but if you're building
something that you're gonna
share with other stakeholders,
you know, how can you
try to ensure adoption?
Yeah.
I think this is another thing
we know we're supposed to be
doing, but we don't always
have the time because we're
focused on like writing the
nth version of the, you know,
email or the tear sheet.
and so it's, it's just
like start small, try
to show value quickly.
Don't try to build
the perfect system.
Um, just build something
that delivers a little bit of
value to one group, create a
small win, get their feedback.
How'd it go?
You know, do you like
using it this way?
How could it be better?
and that just starts
to build trust.
And once you have a little
bit of trust, you know,
you'll, you'll deliver
more and more and you'll
be able to build on it.
And if you do get stuck, now
you've got the sales team
saying, "Oh, you know, I
want more stuff like that.
Um, we'll commit some of our
resources to help you build
out this system," right?
know, "We'll get, we'll
get other teams involved.
We'll, we'll, uh, advocate
for you when you ask for
resources to help build
something more complicated."
and then, you know, just
show up to their meetings.
Put the, put the
agent where they are.
If they live in
Slack, put it there.
If they're all using
ChatGPT, build it there.
all that kind of stuff just
enhances your credibility,
um, and creates those early
wins that build momentum.
I'm coming back to the,
the stakeholder table or
stakeholder map that we talked
about in the second step,
and I'm like imagining
another column of like,
where do they hang out?
Is it Slack?
Okay, got it.
Like,
Yes.
Yes.
that's where
and then I, I just think it's
another place where, like,
time frees up too, right?
It's like I never had
time to go to all the
sales meetings, right?
Every sales leader, the
mid-market leader has one
meeting, the enterprise
leader has another meeting.
then, like, the EMEA team
has another meeting, and
it's like, I don't have time
to go to all this stuff.
But, like- Sure … if
you're building things that
much faster, maybe it does
free up some time to, to
build more relationships,
and I think that's another
area that we probably
under-invest in as PMMs.
But, uh, using these
tools the right way can
really change that dynamic
Absolutely.
And some, some things that
you were saying I feel like
is leading us nicely into
what I was gonna ask next,
and that is, how do I make
sure that, like, the momentum
here continues, with some
of these stakeholders?
Yeah.
I-- so I had a mentor one time
that told me, "You have to
market your marketing." and
sh-she said at the time, I'll,
um, I'll remember she's like,
"Our CNO-- C-CEO does not know
what marketing is or does.
Like, I have to teach them."
and even if you have a, a
CEO or a sales leader that
appreciates marketing,
you still have to teach
them what you're doing.
Uh, so I think it's
about sharing your wins.
I think it's about
demoing new capabilities.
I think it's about continuing
to gather feedback, um,
and just become your own,
like, internal marketer.
Promote this stuff.
When, you know, they do the
monthly company all-hands,
like, put your name in the hat
to stand up there and show off
your real-time sales agent.
You know, the engineers
are gonna wanna see that.
Even if they never
use it themselves,
they'll think it's cool.
and, uh, you know, you'll get
some well-deserved recognition
for building something
Absolutely.
And one thing here that
I've personally had success
with is just letting your
pride for your work show
through in your emotions.
Like, if you're
proud of something,
like, talk about it.
You know?
Like, evangelize it
for yourself and show
your enthusiasm for it.
Um, I think it, it can become
infectious if you let it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, we're,
we're marketers.
We should be passionate
about our products
and the companies that
we work for
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Okay, let me recap
the playbook that I
think I heard from you.
So step one was to do the
knowledge mapping of all
of the sources, and step
two was a stakeholder
mapping or some kind of, um,
process to ensure you had
got all your stakeholders.
And then step three was to
actually build the system.
And then step four was
I think like a feedback
loop, get feedback, see
if this… Is this-- Are
we on the right track?
Are we getting
the right things?
Is this the quality
that we want it to be?
And then step five is
to market your marketing
to socialize with your
stakeholders from step two.
Yeah
Anything else you'd
add or change?
You got the list
exactly right.
Um, the thing I'd add is
that I, I feel like the,
the marketers that are
winning with AI are not
the ones that are using
more tools, Right, It's
the ones building a system
that just quiets the chaos
and delivers real results
Right, so that you
can spend more time on
the decisions part of
Yep.
3D framework.
Yeah
I love that.
Okay, last question on
this topic for you, Steve.
If you had one piece of advice
for a product marketer who is
trying to pull off something
like this, what would it be?
Yeah.
Um, really spend your
time on those golden docs.
Uh, when I've gotten those
really dialed in, that's
when I get the best outputs.
and then, you know, with the
launch system, you, you, you
have a new product, and the
emails and content and web
copy that come out of it, are,
are really good and you don't
have to, you don't have to
rewrite it, when you get that.
A- and I, I think, uh,
one thing as these systems
scale is to consider hiring
like an operations PMM or
recruiting someone from
IT or another department
that's more technical, that
can help you get unstuck
with some of this stuff.
Uh, you, you really do
wanna spend your time on
those golden docs and not
on, uh, becoming an expert
on how to connect MCP
servers or debugging
Python scripts
I am so glad you said that
because I feel like there's
been an ongoing debate
about that specifically.
Mm.
Um, that mean that I've
seen at least in a lot of
the online circles that
I've been in for marketing.
So I'm so glad you said that.
And just overall, this
was such a fantastic
case study and story.
It's very inspiring.
It makes me want to go out and
like build more workflows and
see what I can put together.
Yeah, so I can spend more time
on the fun part, the strategy.
100%. Well, I hope everyone
listening, uh, is equally
as inspired and, um,
let's, let's, let's do it.
Let's do a, a little
PMM renaissance here
So good.
I love it.
okay, so now I'd love to
transition to the second
segment of our show, which
is the messaging critique.
It's so fun.
This is where, as product
marketing experts, we get to
analyze real world messaging.
And the fun part is, as my
guest, Steve, you get to pick
the company that we look at.
So some quick ground rules.
One, ideally you pick a
company whose customers
you know pretty well so
that it's a fair critique.
I can't critique messaging
on a company that I know
nothing about their customers.
Um, and then, um, we're gonna
talk about what's standing
out, what did the PMM do
really well, what's something
we wish the PMM would've
considered differently.
And then if you were
their PMM coach, like,
how would you help them
take it to the next level?
so tell me, who are we
starting with today?
The company that comes to mind
for me, uh, or I guess the
brand I should say, is Peacock
I love it.
Tell me more
Uh, so you might
know this, right?
Peacock is the streaming
service from NBC
Mm-hmm.
I think I only signed up just
so I could get The Office.
Yes, exactly.
So, like I, I
actually love it.
I, I, I love all the
stuff they have on there.
I, I watch Saturday Night
Live, I watch The Office.
reruns.
I watched the World Cup
in Spanish the last couple
months.
It was great.
I, I mean, it's a, it's
a, it's a good service.
It really is.
but, uh, I think it's
pretty confusing how it fits
into the larger picture of
what that company's doing
Okay, so what's standing
out really well that
the PMM team is doing?
Or like maybe like give
us a quick run-through of
like what their current
messaging is today
Well, I, I, I think that's the
problem is that the current
messaging is A bit of a mess.
and, uh, I just remember
watching the Olympics maybe,
uh, like over the winter, and
there were just four brands
that were constantly competing
about who was actually
presenting the Olympics.
It was Comcast, which is
like the parent company.
It was Xfinity, which is
the, like, internet provider.
Then it was NBC, and
then it was Peacock,
and just the whole thing
kind of gave me whiplash.
Yeah.
A bit of an identity crisis.
Like, who are you?
Who are we
Yeah, exactly.
And I, I mean, for me,
NBC carries a lot of trust
and cultural significance.
Like, I grew up watching
shows on that network.
Um, you know, we talked
about "The Office."
They still have things that,
you know, I associate with
them, uh, you know, like the
Olympics, like basketball,
like "The Office" reruns,
like "Saturday Night Live."
and I'm just like: Why is
Peacock spending billions
trying to like, build a
new brand when they have
this NBC, or, or Universal,
you know, as part of it as
well that makes the movies?
Like, these are great brands
that are widely regarded.
Why do we have to try
to create this new
thing at, like, great
expense and effort?
Right.
Absolutely.
So if you were their
PMM coach, how would you
advise them on taking
it to the next level?
I, I mean, if I was in charge
of Comcast, like I, I don't
think I'd spend another
dollar on the Peacock brand.
I'd try to fold it into
NBC or figure out something
else to do with it.
But, uh, honestly, it, it
even goes like a little bit
further than that for me.
I think they're missing out
on a really big opportunity.
when I look at like the
media landscape more broadly,
consumers are buying into
these ecosystems, right?
Like I, I'm an
Apple person, right?
I have Apple TV, I
have Apple Music,
I
Disney person.
Yeah.
totally.
Yeah.
right?
Um, right.
I have-- I buy
things on Amazon.
I shop at Whole Foods, right?
It's all this stuff, and I
just feel like Comcast has
all these pieces, right?
The internet, smart home
hubs, they make movies,
they make TV shows, but
it's, It's all disconnected.
And so like, if I'm an Apple
person, I'm innovative.
If I'm an Amazon person,
maybe I care about value.
If I'm a Comcast person, like
that's just a blank for me.
Like what does that even
mean?
Yeah.
Right.
You like bad customer service?
yeah, I don't know.
Um, so like I, I don't
think Comcast has a,
a technology problem.
I think they have like
a coherence problem.
and so some improved
positioning there
could just really help.
And Peacock in particular
is like emblematic
of that for me.
Like, why are we trying to.
reinvent the wheel when we
already have all of these
great pieces that I think
together could be, uh, even
more powerful if they were
connected in the right way?
So what's like… I mean, I
think my first step here would
be to, like, w- do some really
intense customer research.
Is that the right…
That's what my gut says.
Is that what, uh, is
that what you'd be
I think so.
Like I, I, I'm an, uh, you
know, a survey of one, but
like, w- do people resonate
with the Peacock brand or do
they think it's kinda silly?
Like, does NBC still mean
something or is that outdated?
like do, do, do people
like the service they get
from Xfinity now, or is it
still, you know, associated
with poor connectivity
and bad customer service?
and just try to figure out
where the, the opportunity is.
and then try to put something
together that, that plays
on all those and, and
maybe there is, some kind
of bundled offering that,
uh, pulls all these pieces
together, in a way that
makes sense to consumers
and, and makes people wanna
buy into the whole thing
and, and, you know, earn
a larger share of wallet.
Yeah, I love this.
And I'm kind of like thinking
through the opportunity and
some of the brands that you
mentioned already, right?
Like Amazon and, Apple.
As a, as a marketer,
as a product marketer,
if you were to work for
one of those companies,
you're proud, right?
Those are fantastic brands.
I'm not sure if it's
the same level of pride
when it's Comcast.
Not saying it's not, but,
but here's in my-- This is
I might be, again, like an N
of one in feeling this way.
There's something kind
of attractive about that
challenge, like a ph-
like a flip, you know?
Like, give it to me.
Let me flip it around.
Like, give me-- Let me get
my hands on the strategy,
on the messaging, on the
storytelling, and, turn
it into the level of
admiration that some of
those other brands have.
So, uh, yeah, so
I, I don't know.
You said you
watched The Office.
Do you watch 30 Rock too?
Oh, I, one that's on
my list and I haven't,
Oh, well, 30 Rock has this
wonderful character, Jack
Donaghy, uh, who's like the
NBC executive, and he's always
coming up with these schemes.
So thank you for giving me
the opportunity to release my
inner Jack Donaghy and, uh,
come up with a, a crazy scheme
for, for Comcast and NBC.
My, my latent interest
in being a media mogul,
you know, got to be
exercised, So thank you
So good.
I love it.
Okay.
Well, shout out to any
Peacock PMMs out there.
I think you've got some
fans, and, you know, we've
got some ideas for you, so
let us know what you think.
I'm, I'm available, yeah.
I love it.
All right, so Steve, one thing
that I like to make space for
on this podcast is a moment
of gratitude because none of
us in product marketing get
to where we are on our own.
We always have others to learn
from, to mentor us, to give
us feedback, to give us ideas,
and we're all better for it.
So before we wrap up, one,
I wanna say a genuine thank
you to you for giving your
time and expertise to the
show and to our listeners.
But then, two, turn it around,
and who do we have to thank
to who helped shape you
as a PMM and made you the
amazing PMM that you are?
Oh, I love this question,
and I love ending with
a moment of gratitude.
yeah, I think about three
former colleagues that
I've had, that I'd love
to give shout-outs to.
So, uh, to Rob and Pam, who I
worked with at Optimizely, for
just being smarter than me.
I learned from you.
To Ray Lambert, um,
who I worked with at
Intercom, uh, who was more
entrepreneurial than me.
and, uh, to Tim Parkes, who
I worked with at Twilio, for
being more strategic than me.
I, I learned a lot from all
those folks and, and really
appreciated the chance
to, uh, be their peer for
a short period of time.
Uh, so shout out to
those three, for sure.
I love that.
One of my favorite things,
so I literally keep like
a, I keep a spreadsheet
somewhere of people that
I've worked with that I just
like, they had some kind of
special talent or strength
that I really admired, and
I just keep note of it,
and it's, it's a long list.
But,
but I'm so glad that, um,
some of these people were
able to cross pat- cross
paths with your career.
It's awesome.
All right.
Okay, my last question
for you, I promise.
Where else can we
access your expertise?
Is it best to find
you on LinkedIn?
Yeah.
LinkedIn is the easiest.
Uh, hit me up, uh, if you've
got questions about how
to build a system like the
one we were talking about.
Uh, I, I'd love to hear
from you, and I'd love to
hear what, uh, what people
are building themselves so
I can learn from them too
Awesome.
So good.
Thank you so much, Steve.
This was such a
fantastic episode.
And hey, PMM listeners, if
you liked this episode, please
share it with a PMM friend.
I would be so grateful if
you would leave us a review.
It helps tremendously
with our reach.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to
take on the next step
of your own journey