The 2024 Presidential election was historic in so many ways. Instead of electing the first woman, and woman of color, to the highest office in the land, voters again elected Donald Trump. For those who are invested in the rights of women, it’s a hard time. This week, we sit down with NOW National President Christian F. Nunes to reflect–and to learn where we go from here.
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Guest: Christian F. Nunes, MBA, MS, LCSW, became NOW president in August 2020. She was previously appointed Vice President by the board in May 2019. As the second African American president in the organization’s history, the youngest person of color, and the youngest president in more than 40 years, Nunes is leading the organization through an intersectional lens, bringing a diverse coalition of grassroots activists to work against structural sexism and racism.
Listen to new episodes of Feminism NOW released every other Wednesday. To find out more about the National Organization for Women, visit our website.
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Creators & Guests
Host
Christian Nunes
BB
Producer
Bethany Brookshire
IB
Editor
Ismael Balderas-Wong
SC
Producer
Susanna Cassisa
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Passionate about modern feminist issues? Want to learn more about how today's political, academic, and cultural leaders strive for a future of universal equality and justice?
Join NOW President Christian F. Nunes in a new podcast dedicated to intersectional feminist discussions in American society with leaders in entertainment, sports, politics, and science. From conversations on constitutional equality, to economic justice and reproductive rights, listeners will find new ways to learn, engage, and get empowered.
Listen for new episodes released every other Wednesday.
Bethany Brookshire (00:06):
Hello everyone and welcome to Feminism Now, the podcast from the National Organization for Women. I'm senior producer Bethany Brookshire. It is currently 3:30 PM Eastern time on Wednesday, November 6th, 2024. And Donald Trump will be the next President of the United States. This has been a titanic struggle and the effects are weighing on all of us. So today we're checking in with NOW National President Christian F. Nunes. And while we're here, we would love to hear your thoughts. How are you feeling? Contact us @feminismnow@now.org. And now let's talk this side. Let's just get right into this. It looks like Donald Trump has both the presidency and the Senate. This is something that so many women worked so hard to avoid and none of them worked harder than you did Christian. So I just wanted to start by asking, how are you feeling?
Christian F. Nunes (01:10):
Well, first I would like to say that I think that many women worked just as hard as I did. And I think many allies worked just as hard as I did. Many people put their tears, their feet, just so much into this. And so I want to give everybody their flowers, including everyone, their flowers for just really being committed to unity and democracy. That's how I would start. As I think, and I've been processing this, I would say that I did not really sleep. I think I dozed off about an hour toward the end because I was kind of like, oh, well, this is over. I pretty much know where this is going. And then I woke up and then I've been up since then. But honestly, Bethany, I knew this was going to be hard. I knew it was going to be a very tough race, and I'm disheartened. I'm disappointed in America, but I'm not surprised in America because I think that what we see is that the deep structural inequalities that America's built on sexism, racism, have just really shown their true colors.
(02:28):
We're seeing the way that our country continuously operates off our structural inequalities. And out for me but not for you, type of mentality is what we witness. And so I say that because the math didn't math last night when we looked at some of this valid measures that passed, but then the presidential choice. And if we're talking about issues and we're talking about progression, then why do we have a progressive issue passed but not a progressive presidential candidate? So I'll just say that I feel frustrated. I feel disheartened that this is what women and persons of color and marginalized communities have to face. People who are looking for a democracy and unity have to face, everyone really. But I'm not really surprised.
Bethany Brookshire (03:24):
Yeah. I also wanted to follow up a little bit and ask specifically about the role women of color played in this election because I know and you know and we have brought this up before, that people often turn to women of color to bring them out of their problems and their tail fin, emotionally and in this election democratically. And I would love to hear your reflections on that.
Christian F. Nunes (03:53):
Yeah. Well, I think Black women did exactly what Black women were expected to do, show up. And show up in full numbers and show up for democracy and show up to carry us through. Black women performed how Black women perform every Democratic election. Nothing changed. The problem we had with the exit poll numbers is once again, and this is the truth, I'm taking this straight off the exit poll numbers, did everybody else show up? No, they didn't show up like they were supposed to show up. Exit poll numbers said when it came down to it, even with the Democratic side... And I hate to bring this out to be Democratic versus Republican, but I just want to talk about what we're looking at, the exit numbers because... And it's not about me choosing sides, but I want to talk about what really happened.
(04:43):
They said that even for the Democratic coalitions, women voted less for Kamala Harris, Latinos voted less for Kamala Harris, and young voters voted less for Kamala Harris on the Democratic coalition side. And then we looked at the overall voters, the exit poll showed that 66% of white women voted for Trump, more than they did with Hillary Clinton. Okay, we knew white men were going to most likely favor Trump. That was what we expected. Latinos overwhelmingly supported Trump than before in 2016 and 2020 with Biden. And then we also saw that Gen Z women most likely voted progressive, but Gen Z men voted more conservative, which I found very interesting. So when the numbers came down and played out, we saw a lot more turnout for the conservative vote than we did for the progressive vote. However, this is a zinger, majority of the abortion referendums to enshrine abortion access into the Constitution in their states passed, only three states failed.
(06:05):
But majority those states that passed it all voted for Trump. So how is that possible? We have to ask ourselves. We showed up for one person's sense of oppression, but not for everybody's oppression. And that's the problem. And this is the problem in our country, and this is the problem with our sense of justice. This is the problem with our sense of democracy. It's the problem with our sense of equality. This is the problem, not progressive only, not conservative only, not liberal. We have to all start holding ourselves more accountable for what this really is about. And it's not about political affiliation. This is great about racism and sexism, that's what this election came down to and xenophobia. And so we need to be honest about what this really is. And everyone says, "Oh, the issue..." No, it was not about issues of policy, not when you had a person who couldn't even tell you a policy and say, "Well, I have possibly a concept." Another person had clear policies. So we having to have honest conversations with ourselves about what we witnessed and saw.
Bethany Brookshire (07:07):
This was something that actually I recognized when I was reading some of the coverage of Harris's campaign. Every time she would give a talk, they would say, "Oh, she seems more comfortable now in front of audiences. This is the most comfortable she's ever felt." And they would go on and on about how sometimes she doesn't seem comfortable in front of audiences. And it was so odd to me because she's been a public figure for most of her life. She has been speaking in public for most of her life. Why are we saying things like, "Oh, she's so surprisingly comfortable."
Christian F. Nunes (07:51):
My girl [inaudible 00:07:53].
Bethany Brookshire (07:53):
Yes. And it reminded me of during the Obama race when they would say, "Oh, he's so well-spoken." And we all know that one now, and we all know we can't say that. So instead, you hear she's just more comfortable now. It was so interesting to see that play out and see as people didn't seem to recognize it in front of them.
Christian F. Nunes (08:21):
Well, I think that sexism is so deeply embedded in our everyday fabric of life, in our everyday value system, in our everyday that we don't even recognize it sometimes. Including women, we're so used to patriarchy so embedded in everything we do in existence and in this world, not even just in the United States in this world. But sometimes we don't even recognize it. We just think that's how it supposed to be. So when you see things and you hear things like this, sometimes you just disregard it because this is what you're so used to hearing and seeing that we don't stop and question it. We don't stop and question and say, "That's not right. You can't say that. That's not okay." What you're basically saying is that because she's a woman or because they're a person of color or because they're LGBTQIA or because they're an immigrant, that this is exceptional for them to be.
(09:11):
You don't see that as a micro rest. You don't see that you're questioning their value and their sense of worth. And you minimize their sense of worth when you think that they shouldn't speak this way or they shouldn't be articulate or shouldn't be educated. And so you say these disrespectful, aggressive comments on this slide and think that... And they're not even recognizing that you're seeing it at all or recognizing that it's offensive. I went through this all through grad school and after grad school, I went to Columbia University. And after I graduated it was the most interesting, well, I always received my whole life, "You're so well-spoken." And I said, "I'm so well-spoken for what?" "Well, you just so well-spoken." And I'll be like, "I'm so well-spoken for what?" And they wouldn't want to say for a Black woman because they would know that that sounds shitty, I have to say that. But they would just hint it, that's what they were doing.
Bethany Brookshire (10:06):
And I feel like we saw that really play out on a national stage.
Christian F. Nunes (10:11):
We did, because either she was too educated but not educated enough. Well, she's too educated, but she didn't know enough to be president. But she's way far more education than Donald Trump had. And if she smiled, she was too happy, but if she didn't smile, she was being too manly. It's like you can't win for losing, type of situation.
Bethany Brookshire (10:36):
So that leads in pretty well, we know that Donald Trump has some very strong views on women. And we know members of his campaign have some strong views, particularly on women of color. And how do you think these results are going to impact those of us who identify as women and those who are allies of women, how do you think it will affect our equality and our right?
Christian F. Nunes (11:06):
Oh my goodness, they're at risk. Women's lives were under attack before the election, rights being rolled back. We've just witnessed and saw three or four women who in the last year who have died from being denied emergency access at the ER when they were having miscarriages because of the abortion vans, died. We're seeing the fact that the gender wage gap is widened in 2024 going backwards. People can't afford child care. The minimum wage hasn't raised federally since 2009. Women are experiencing so many attacks in their everyday existence in so many ways. Yet, this has all happened before his reelection. But it also has contributed to a lot of what existed from 2016 of the stacking of courts, of abortion dance, of decisions of not to pass progressive laws. All this is value-based. So now that we see, and we also know now that project 2025 is a big, huge discriminatory, racist, misogynistic agenda that is planning to roll back on rights on everybody except for white men.
(12:37):
So women are really at a risk, children are at risk, those who are for disenfranchised communities are at risk. And we have to be all cautious about this. We have to all be concerned about this. But at the same time, that's not going to stop the work we're doing. We're not going to stop. If anything, I think it's going to empower women further like they did in 2016 to organize together. But I think the problem is that we're going to have to be honest about our organizing, because I think part of what happened is that people voted in their best interest in siloed movement and not in a solidarity movement like we should have done.
Bethany Brookshire (13:19):
This is one of the reasons I love speaking to you, because you take so many of these complex, painful emotions and you turn them into action and you turn them into motivation. And so I was wondering how do we strategize? Where do we go from here? How do we strategize to protect our rights and also to build these coalitions and build these communities that maybe we didn't quite manage?
Christian F. Nunes (13:55):
Well, first I would say I would tell everybody to take a pause and take care of themselves first because everybody's pulling different beings, and everyone's at that place inactivate instantly. So I would say whatever grieving you have to do, do it. Take that pause, do that self-care you have to do right now. It is okay. And it is okay to feel 1000 different things right now. So okay. I know I probably went through a whole bunch of emotion, I went through so many emotions between last night and this morning. And I'm okay with all of them because I feel like I totally have the right to feel them all. Now, I think once you feel them, and you figure out where you see yourself in this movement. And remember that movements are built on multi-strategy approaches. They're not single issued approaches.
(14:48):
And therefore we have to look at how we're going to make this a multi-issue, multi-strategy approach to this movement work that we're doing to restore equality and justice for all people. And I'm focusing on all people because part of the problem is that what happened, what we just saw, what we witnessed wasn't about all people. It was about those people who wanted to protect abortion access, those people who wanted their economy, those people who wanted to protect their borders. So they voted in their interest. And however that landed out, that landed out really pretty conservative except for the abortion access. But they only voted for abortion access, which is a progressive theme. But they turned around and voted for the economy and protecting the border and foreign policy, which brought it in their very conservative side. So that leaned heavily toward Trump. And that's how we saw 66% of white women vote for Trump.
(15:42):
They voted to enshrine abortion, but they didn't vote for anything else of those issues that were lying with it. So we have to pay attention to that. So it's time we do a wake-up. We cannot have these siloed movements. We have to stop. We will never get to the place we need to get to, true liberation for everybody if we're working with silos. It just can't work. It's not going to work. Liberation will never happen. And we can't call ourselves advocates or activists if we're working in silos and we're working for our best interest, that is inequality. If your equality comes before my equality, it is inequality. It is not equality. So we need to pay attention to that. If you're putting yours before mine, it is inequality. It's injustice, so we need to stop. Period. We need to stop and we need to figure out how we are going to come together and convene, and organize to identify our strategy and a movement that has solidarity. A unified movement where we're working for the liberation of everybody at the same time, not separated, at the same time.
Bethany Brookshire (16:56):
So I actually wanted to follow up on that a little bit because one thing I think we really saw rise up in this election was rhetoric. The temperature of the rhetoric was it should be measured in units of Kelvin and not Fahrenheit or Celsius. And there are now people who have cut off friends and family members as they've realized values don't align. And I wanted to kind of ask you, not just as the national president of NOW, but as someone with a mental health background, how have these relationships been affected? What does that mean and what should that mean going forward as we strive to build coalitions that promote equality and not one group above another?
Christian F. Nunes (17:50):
I think this is a hard question, because I think that if your family and friends are promoting things that come to your violence, that come to your harm, then you have to set boundaries. And it's okay to cut them off. But if it's just a big disagree politically with you and they just are more conservative and they're just voting down party line and they're not really educated on things, I think it's time to have a conversation and having it in a very neutral way. And there's a way to not cut off everybody and choose to compartmentalize some people. And I get what people... Because everybody doesn't have the same values. And you also have levels of friendship. I tell people, everybody's not the same level of friend. I have acquaintances. I have a hey girl, bye girl. I have have deep friends that I share my most intimate things with.
(18:49):
I have my kindred spirit friends. I have different levels of friendships and everybody doesn't have that same access to me. And I think it's really important as mental health personally, people understand everyone doesn't deserves the same access to you. And part of having healthy boundaries is not giving everybody the same access. So some people who may not believe what you believe politically, you could just decide not to give them that access to you. It's okay to say hey or hi when you see them passing, it's okay to be cordial but they don't have the ability to have that access to you. And I think that's what we have to do because when we say you have to believe, I believe or I can't do with you, we're no different from the other person. And I think that's what we have to understand. So it's about, I don't agree with your believe, but can we come to a place that we both don't believe in hate?
(19:35):
We both don't believe in violence. Now, when you stop believing in violence and harming people, then that's where I call my boundary. There are some things that are deal-breakers to me. And when you get to my deal-breakers, then that's when I cut you. And I think that's okay because that's about health, that's about livelihood. But just because we may not agree on a policy, we may not agree on a elected official, we may not agree on certain things. You may believe that you may be pro-life. I may be pro-choice. But if you're believing that because I'm pro-choice, I'm going to burn in hell and be struck... I've heard this with people and I should die. And then that's a different thing because you wishing harm on me and then I choose not to deal with you. But if you just believe the way you believe because to you that is your personal, spiritual belief and the way you're raised, I'm not taking that from you.
(20:32):
And I think people have to understand that in life just because someone doesn't agree with you and align with you on everything, everything doesn't have to be a deal breaker. Some people are put in their buckets and they stay in their buckets. And that's the way to be healthy because when we started becoming absolute, we are no different from the oppressor.
Bethany Brookshire (20:55):
So I also wanted to ask, you are the president of the National Organization for Women, but that kind of means actually you are an international figure. People know your name around the world, and you have done tons of international interviews. What have people that you've talked to in other countries, what are their concerns? What are the kind of questions that they are bringing to you in this time?
Christian F. Nunes (21:19):
Man, I get the question, what do you feel like it's going to be like as a woman under the Trump administration? That's the biggest question I get. How are women feeling? What's the plan? Those are the biggest questions I get, just seeing what's happened. And I think it's really important that people also understand that people in the world have been paying attention to what's happening in US elections. I don't think people understand how big US elections are to the rest of this world and how a lot of people pay attention to it and they look at what we're doing for their next move. And we got to think about that. And so it's like these questions about how are people feeling? What are women going to do? And it's a hard question, but I say that we can't forget who our ancestors were.
(22:03):
We can't forget the women who have come along before us and what they went through and the sacrifices they made to get us here. That's some resiliency, that's some grit, that's some determination, that's some perseverance, that's some strength, that's some resolve. So I think about what they were willing to sacrifice for the movement, for the fight, for the rights we have now. And I also know that there are times they felt like it was going to fail. They felt like giving up, and that's okay. So we have to think about that. Change doesn't happen when you're comfortable. Change happens when you're agitated. Change happens when you can't take it anymore. Change happens when you're just so uncomfortable with what's existing that you're ready to move. We are uncomfortable now. You're agitated now. We are done now. This is the time to make the change. This is the time for us to get together. This is the time for us to come together, come up with a plan, come up with a strategy that's going to shift this and make the change we need for good.
(23:06):
We can't stop though. We have to remember those ancestors who worked so hard to get us here. We have to remember what they went through, what they sacrificed. And that's going to be my push. That's my push. I think about everybody that sacrificed so much because of what they believed in, the value, our inherent worth. And I believe in our inherent worth. I know we are enough. I know we deserve. So I'm not going to stop fighting until we get what we owe.
Bethany Brookshire (23:34):
You're lifting me up with you and I adore that. So I wanted to ask today, we've talked through a little bit, what is your reason or hope?
Christian F. Nunes (23:46):
I have two reasons, one's spiritual. I'm a very spiritual person, and you can be a Christian and a feminist at the same time, I like to tell people. My faith has come from a higher power, and so therefore I don't have fear of man in that sense. And my faith is higher, and so that motivates me to continue going. The other part of me is that just the knowing of hope and faith as something that you cannot see, but it exists. And so I have to know and remind myself once again, of all the work that has been done to get us this far, and it was a lot of work, so if I could do my part I'm going to do my part. And that's what keeps me motivated. I'm just another person who has to do my part in this struggle.
(24:45):
And that's what I think. I'm no different from anybody else. We're all the same. If we believe in these causes, we believe in these values, then we are just another person that has to do our work. That's what I do, and it keeps me grounded and it keeps me knowing that the possibility is there and I can't stop.
Bethany Brookshire (25:03):
And of course, our theme this season is Women Uplifting Women. And right now women are feeling kind of low. So how do you think we can uplift each other going forward in this work?
Christian F. Nunes (25:19):
Well, one thing I think is really important is that I would love for we as women to just protect each other and support each other and hear each other. And I mean, hear each other. Not assume we know because we're also very different and unique, but hear each other, hear our struggles, hear our words, hear our stories and try to get to know us better and figure out what that person needs. I think that is still very important. We can't assume we know the person's needs. We can't assume we know their struggles, what they're going through. And I think if we can take the time to just get to know each other, hear each other, hear our narratives, hear our stories, hear what we're going through, what you need, I think we'll be better off in this journey together. And I think if we can start just really showing up for each other and protecting each other, that'd be our cause.
(26:20):
I want to protect this woman, I want to make sure I'm helping protect her, then it's going to shift the way we do our work. It's going to shift the way we do our advocacy. It's going to shift the way we do our activism. It's going to shift the way we do our outreach, our fundraising, our leadership. Everything's going to shift because we're thinking about safety. We're thinking about that as one of the guiding principles. And so I think I would just love to see that. I think that's how we will uplift. Everybody wants to feel safe, and when people feel safe they feel like they can trust you. I know I do. A person makes me feel safe, I feel like I can trust them. And I want to feel safe. As a Black woman in America, I want to feel safe.
Bethany Brookshire (26:57):
Well, Christian, thank you so much.
Christian F. Nunes (26:59):
Thank you, Bethany.
Bethany Brookshire (27:01):
I have to say you were the voice I needed to hear today, and I think our listeners will agree that your voice is the one that they most need to hear. So thank you so much for taking the time to reflect on that.
Christian F. Nunes (27:16):
Well, thank you so much for the interview. It was a space I need to hear too, just to talk. So thank you for giving me this opportunity.
Bethany Brookshire (27:26):
Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast this week as we all get ready for the world to come. As we uplift the women around us, you can uplift us too if you like and subscribe to the show. You can also send us your thoughts and questions @feminismnow@now.org. Head to now.org to read up on NOW's core issues and our approach to advancing women's equality. Together we will make a difference. I'm Bethany Brookshire. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you soon.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Last topic.
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