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Pull up a seat at our table, where badass women from all walks of life—fashion, beauty, design, music, philanthropy, art, and more—come together to share honest stories, serve truths, and dig into the realities of modern womanhood.
Johanna Almstea...: Hi everyone. I am menu planning for my next guest and I actually was the guest at a friend's house the other night and she served the most delicious tortilla espanol, like a little potato and egg. It's almost like a omelet, but if you're in Spain, they call it a tortilla. So I'm feeling inspired by that because it was so delicious and it just had a little bit of fresh raw tomato chopped up on top. So I'm going to steal her idea and build on that for the night. I think I'm going to do a little tapas tonight. I'm going to do a little bunch of small plates. I'm going to do a big giant salad of just gorgeous gem lettuce, a little red wine vinegarette with shallots. Keep it really simple because some of these dishes are a little heavier. And then I'm going to do the potato tortilla, which is going to be delicious.
And we're going to do some sort of like the traditional garlic shrimp. They're like sauteed shrimp in garlic sauce. Delicious. I'm going to do some espinacas con garbanzos, so like just the sauteed spinach with the chickpeas and a little bit of like a tomato chili paste, which is going to be yummy. I'm going to do patatas bravas, which are kind of roasted potatoes chopped really small. And then you do it with a really yummy aioli dip. I'm going to do some Spanish style meatballs, yummy yummy, and some pan con tomate, which is just like the bread with the lovely tomato spread on top. A really good sea salt. So it's going to be kind of a lingering, windy road meal of a bunch of small plates. My next guest does not drink alcohol. So I think I'm going to do a take on like a kind of a sangria, but non-alcoholic.
I'm going to do some nice, really good high quality fresh juices. So I'm going to think I'm going to do a little pomegranate, a little ginger, and then I'm going to put seltzer in that and then cut up a bunch of sliced fruit. So almost like an old school punch, but old school punch meets Sangria without the booze. But it's just going to be light and refreshing and fun. Serve that over really big, nice, good ice cubes and a little fruit garnish. And since we're sort of going in the Latin vibe, I think I'm going to go little Gipsy Kings for music. I'm going to go Celia Cruz, also feeling a little Joni Mitchell, so not Latin, but going to put that in there. And I'm really excited for this conversation. My next guest is very, very smart, very, very brave, very, very forthright and very, very true.
And just a little programming note. We are going to talk about some adult topics today. I know some of you guys listen to this in mixed company sometimes with your children. So I do want to just flag that we are going to talk about some very adult topics, including the sex trade and sexual assault. So I do want to just make sure that anyone who is not comfortable with that, turn it off and listen to us another time. And if you have young kids in the room, please make sure that you put on headphones. But as I said, our next guest is brave. She is smart. She is forthright. She is honest and she is talking about some really, really important stuff. So I'm really excited for you guys to get to meet her and I think we should just dig in. Let's go.
Hello everyone and welcome to Eat My Words. I am really looking forward to diving into today's conversation because it investigates something that I can confidently say I'm pretty sure touches every one of our audience members in one way or another. My guest today is a freelance cultural journalist who has been following the pulse of sexuality, trauma, motherhood, and feminism for over two decades. Nothing light there. She is also a leading expert on shame and vulnerability. Her writing has been featured in The Washington Post, Allure Magazine, Cosmo, Rolling Stone, Good Housekeeping, The Guardian, InStyle, and many other national publications. She was a finalist for the PEN/FUSION Emerging Writers Prize, and she holds a bachelor's degree in women's studies from Antioch and an MFA in creative nonfiction from the New School. She's also a writing coach who has helped hundreds of girls and women push through fear, write, share, and even publish their most vulnerable stories in national publications such as The New York Times, The Guardian, The Nation, Salon, Washington Post, and elsewhere.
And she has helped still more individuals re-envision their lives by making meaning of their past and transcending traumatic experiences. She is also the author of Shame On You: How to Be a Woman in the Age of Mortification, which was an Amazon editor's pick for best nonfiction book of the month and a truly thought-provoking and inspiring piece of work for me when I read it. It really shook my brain up in a good way. So I'm really excited to talk about that. She is also a wife, she has a daughter, she is a mother, and she is a friend. Melissa Petro, welcome to Eat My Words.
Melissa Petro: Oh my goodness. What an intro. Thank you.
Johanna Almstea...: You did it all. I just tell people about it.
Melissa Petro: That was super uncomfortable to listen to someone say presumably nice things.
Johanna Almstea...: They are nice things that you've accomplished in your life.
Melissa Petro: That's a lot. Wow. And it's so funny what the brain does. Oh, am I still doing that? Is that... It looks for the... How am I not... I'm not as adequate as I used to be. Oh my gosh, let's get into it.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, let's get into it. I have that feeling sometimes. I don't really ever have to send a resume anymore for anything, but every once in a while if I have to go back and write a bio or go back and look at my work history, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I did stuff." It's so easy for us to forget the big things we've done, the small things we've done, the life that we've built, the work we've done.
Melissa Petro: And it can feel empowering like, "Wow, look at what I've done." Or you can have the experience I just had, which is, "Wow, have I done any of that lately? Who am I now?" Like oh, really.
Johanna Almstea...: I should have done that all yesterday.
Melissa Petro: And we compare ourselves to other women. We compare ourselves to who we used to be. We compare ourselves to who we're supposed to be. Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Well, you actually have done all those things and in the right timing. And I think the purpose of this podcast and the purpose of this conversation today is really to share your story and your journey with all the good and all the bad and all the hard stuff, and that it's not supposed to look like polished and perfect, right? So.
Melissa Petro: And it's not linear.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Melissa Petro: Even though it sounds that way when you look at a bio and when you write a story, it becomes, in a sense, linear, that life is a lot messier.
Johanna Almstea...: So that being said, I would love to... First of all, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for sharing your story and thank you for taking the time out of what I know is a really full life. So I really appreciate you being here. I always like to start with a question of where your journey began, because I think it's so telling when someone, some people start at birth, some people start at as a teenager, some people start at a career moment. So I would love for you to tell us where your journey began.
Melissa Petro: Well, I'm going to go with what came immediately when you asked the question. And my story began at 19 years old. I was living as a student abroad in Oaxaca, Mexico, and my credit card that I had been living off of hit its limit at the grocery store. I remember this moment, like I can feel it in my body. And in fact, whenever I hit similar moments somatically, it's that same feeling. It's a feeling of obviously fear that I mistake for excitement-
Johanna Almstea...: Oh.
Melissa Petro: Like what is going to happen next.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Melissa Petro: What's going to happened next? And I'm actually, I'm going to say something nice about myself. I'm quite resilient because I can generally parlay it into something good.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Melissa Petro: In that moment, I had no idea what was going to happen next. And I don't remember the exact sequence of events, but I got a tattoo with my last $10 in cash and the tattoo artist was... I told him my problems and he said, "I know a way that you can make some money." But it's interesting that I choose to start with that moment because it became so defining. I started working at a strip club in Mexico as a student and it just set off a sequence of events for me that were so incredibly formative and transformative. That's I think where my story begins.
Johanna Almstea...: So you tell the guy, the tattoo artist that you're having financial troubles, you're sort of stranded in Mexico with no money. He says, "I know how you can make some money." Describes the work to you, tells you what it's going to be?
Melissa Petro: He did. There was no deception.
Johanna Almstea...: Right. Okay.
Melissa Petro: I knew-
Johanna Almstea...: So he says-
Melissa Petro: Right.
Johanna Almstea...: You could go work in a strip.
Melissa Petro: Right. Right. You're a white woman. That's very appealing. And I had a friend in high school who had danced and I was very shocked and very judgmental, incredibly judgmental to her and intrigued. So here I am in Mexico and what happens in Mexico stays in Mexico, right? No one needs to know. So I can try something. I can dip my foot into this. I can make money, solve my problem, and move on. After I come home, I just will just not think of it again.
Johanna Almstea...: And how did you feel about the like, take away the moral judgment or whatever around it, but the actual physical act of doing that, if you've never done that before-
Melissa Petro: Oh, I love to.
Johanna Almstea...: Was that at all scary or?
Melissa Petro: No.
Johanna Almstea...: Because that sounds terrifying to me. That part sounds scary. It's not a judgment. It's like a, oh my God, I don't want to be naked in front of that many people.
Melissa Petro: Here's lots of things I can't do, so I know that feeling. I don't know how I could do that, but this was like, it seems so intuitive.
Johanna Almstea...: Really?
Melissa Petro: My friend who had become a dancer before me, her name was Jenny. Jenny and I, every weekend, we would go dancing at this club called The Cause where we would just... It was under 21 nights. We were 19. So you'd get dressed up. Well, we would wear then, like the tube top, you have your going out shirt and your black, tight pants. And we would just get dolled up. We'd go dancing. You're trying to... Almost like animals like peacocks, like trying to attract a mate. And I love dancing just for fun, just the music, the way it feels in your body when it's up real loud and the lights. And that's what the club felt like. It was the most American place I had found in Oaxaca, which is a more traditional space. So I was excited to dance again. And the fact that I had to take off my clothes, yes. I do remember the very first time, you're reminding me, that was a little scary, but you're on a stage. So when you show up, you have to audition.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Melissa Petro: They're like, "Can you do it?"
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, God. This giving me such an anxiety attack. Okay.
Melissa Petro: Very exhibitionistic. I can get on stage. I'm a performer. You know that kid, right?
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Petro: I was in the school play. I always was hungry for attention and didn't-
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Melissa Petro: Tell the difference between positive and negative attention. And it's very, you're rewarded. The second I walked on stage, I can't remember it perfectly, but I can only imagine everyone was thrilled.
Johanna Almstea...: Woo-hoo. Yes.
Melissa Petro: I'm in the middle of Mexico. I'm very white and very young and like all young women are beautiful in a way.
Johanna Almstea...: Right. Yes.
Melissa Petro: So I was attractive and I probably got a lot of positive reinforcement the moment I stepped on that stage and then you just take it off piece by piece and it was fully nude. And then you scoop up your clothes when it's done and you run in the back and you're done. And everyone probably was very, very supportive.
Johanna Almstea...: Right. And that felt good to you. That felt really good.
Melissa Petro: I made a lot of money.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. You made a lot of money like the first night where you were like, oh, shit?
Melissa Petro: All the time. I was a real high earner. And I was also, when I worked in Mexico, I wouldn't let anyone touch me, which wasn't the norm in the club and I still made a lot of money.
Johanna Almstea...: Wow. Leave them wanting more, I suppose.
Melissa Petro: Still, everyone wanted a dance, at least one dance from the white girl. So I just cleaned up.
Johanna Almstea...: You were the only white girl?
Melissa Petro: I was the only white girl.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. And you're 19 at this time?
Melissa Petro: Correct.
Johanna Almstea...: And how much money are you making a night, like roughly?
Melissa Petro: Oh, probably nothing in American dollars and probably even nothing in like... Even now, when I look at... So this starts a journey of like in and out of sex work for a long time. And at my most, I made like 30,000 in a month, which is not nothing. That's not-
Johanna Almstea...: That is not nothing. That is not nothing for a young woman who-
Melissa Petro: That was prostitution. And that was a lot of prostitution-
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Melissa Petro: At $200 a client.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Melissa Petro: That's nothing. I make more than that as a writing coach. So I didn't really... I'd come from like this financially insecure background, working class background. So like $20, a lap dance at $20 was like so much money to me.
Johanna Almstea...: Well, I imagine if your card is getting declined at the grocery store.
Melissa Petro: Right.
Johanna Almstea...: And then all of a sudden 20 bucks and then another dance is 20 bucks.
Melissa Petro: I mean, yeah, it's very fast and as much as you could earn. And I'm very entrepreneurial, so I'm going to make a lot of money and it becomes very addictive.
Johanna Almstea...: I imagine. Yeah.
Melissa Petro: It's very rewarding. The dopamine is just every time and there's like adrenaline and now you're drinking because they're buying you drinks. It becomes very dangerous.
Johanna Almstea...: Did it feel dangerous when you first started?
Melissa Petro: I mean, it's not dangerous in a sense that someone's going to physically harm you. Though at that time, I should say I didn't feel that fear, though I should have because I'm walking out of the club by myself when it's over, getting into the first taxi that will take me. And they always asked what my price was and I'd be like, "I don't know what you're talking about. I don't speak Spanish," or whatever. I mean, I could have been really harmed and I wasn't.
Johanna Almstea...: Right.
Melissa Petro: So physically, no. I did not feel endangered, though I was. And I worked in lesser clubs after. That first club was a really nice club, and then I started to work in lesser clubs, and they weren't safe spaces, but I wasn't harmed physically. But the moment I made that decision, the moment I was like, "Yes, I'm going to do this." You remember, I was judgmental of my friend.
Johanna Almstea...: Right.
Melissa Petro: This isn't the way. It really, in my brain, crossed a line into something that decent women wouldn't do. Most women wouldn't do this, and they definitely wouldn't enjoy it.
Johanna Almstea...: So it wasn't just that you were doing it, it was that you were having fun doing it?
Melissa Petro: Yeah. I chose to do it. I craved it. I worked way more than I needed to. I worked when I was bored. I worked when I was lonely, any feeling.
Johanna Almstea...: Wow.
Melissa Petro: I'll just get ready for work, and then the feelings are shut off, and all it is, is on stage, and the lights, and the drinks, and the money, and the compliments, and it just relieved me.
Johanna Almstea...: And fueled you, it sounds like.
Melissa Petro: 100%.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. Okay. So how long did that go on in Mexico?
Melissa Petro: Maybe a month.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, wow.
Melissa Petro: I was only there like another month, and then I bought my mom a plane ticket. She came to visit, and we went home.
Johanna Almstea...: And you were not telling your family or friends about this at all, or your boyfriend, right?
Melissa Petro: I had a boyfriend at the time. I did not mention it. I did tell Jenny. She was like, yeah, I thought she'd be like, "You fucking bitch." Like really. She's just like, "Yeah, I figured you would."
Johanna Almstea...: So I want to jump ahead for a second, but really be back in this moment because you then go on to talk about shame a lot in your career and write about shame and everything else.
Melissa Petro: Right.
Johanna Almstea...: In this moment back in Mexico, was the feeling shame when you were thinking about this is not something that other women would do and this is something that they certainly wouldn't enjoy. Was that feeling shame?
Melissa Petro: That is the feeling of shame that I did-
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Melissa Petro: Not identify for decades.
Johanna Almstea...: Got you.
Melissa Petro: And oftentimes we don't because it can be disguised with so many other things. The idea of separateness, and sometimes it's even exceptionalism. I'm an exception, I'm different. And you can turn that into it like, oh, I'm superior, feeling contempt for others, but there is a lot of self-contempt in that. And there's a lot of fear and unbelonging and desire to be different and not different in an exceptional way, but to belong. So even then I felt apart. It separated me.
Johanna Almstea...: Because of that decision you made. And you knew you had free will when you made that decision. And so it was your-
Melissa Petro: And it said something about me and the kind of person I was deep down, and that's the feeling of shame. So shame is this fundamental feeling of not just difference, but less, so you're worth less or worthless and unlovability. There's something about me that will make me unlovable. And it's interesting because sex work in a very material or pragmatic way, just threaten your belonging. It threatens your ability to find work in the future, partners. Societally, we have so much ideas about the kind of woman who has experiences in the sex trades. It does in a very real way threaten your belonging.
Even for people who are progressive or liberal-minded, we just have so many ideas of the kind of person who does this. And I had those ideas. I had internalized so many of those ideas. So not only was on this practical way I was going to be impacted, it really brought so many questions about who I was on a deep fundamental way, in a very unchangeable way, which is another thing, the difference between shame and guilt. It wasn't like I was guilty because I did something that I believed was wrong and I actually never thought it was wrong. I just knew that it was different and that people would look at me differently and I did look at myself differently.
Johanna Almstea...: It's so interesting because the macro had already done its work on you before you ever made the decision, right? The micro, you making the decision, you enjoying the work, you actually changing your life by making yourself more financially stable and being able to survive, the micro in your life were positive things, right?
Melissa Petro: Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: And nobody even on the micro said anything bad to you, right? Like you did that all-
Melissa Petro: Most people didn't because I didn't tell anyone.
Johanna Almstea...: Right. But that's what I'm saying. Nobody knew.
Melissa Petro: But then I did tell people. I actually did tell, I would tell, if I felt like they were going to respond positively, like they'd be titillated or they'd look at me differently in a good way.
Johanna Almstea...: Interesting.
Melissa Petro: This is like a real vein of people who think, oh, sex work is progressive and it's empowering and like sex positive people, like super pro sex work, especially then. That was a real contingency in my community, they were people that I hung around with. People thought it was cool. So like, yeah, I'm going to let them know that I'm cool. This is something that makes me cool in their view. So they were like almost overly-
Johanna Almstea...: Still feeding that same thing.
Melissa Petro: 100%. So-
Johanna Almstea...: Yes.
Melissa Petro: I wasn't able to really be honest with them. I couldn't tell them, "Well, here's the ways these are the more complicated feelings I have about this experience. These are the experiences that were less than positive or that left me feeling a kind of way." I couldn't even explore that. So I would tell these people that I knew would be just like entirely accepted and permissive over the experience. But most people, people who really knew me didn't know that about me.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. So your mom comes to Mexico, you buy her a ticket, you guys then come back home. At that point, you went back to where you grew up.
Melissa Petro: Well, I was in Ohio and I went to Antioch College at that time. And actually that summer I lived in Cincinnati with my boyfriend and-
Johanna Almstea...: Who still did not know.
Melissa Petro: Did not know, didn't need to know, I thought. And we had this apartment in Cincinnati. It was very hot that summer. He had a job. I did not. I had a job as a rape crisis counselor in the evenings. So I would get woken up in the middle of the night by the phone ringing because someone had just went to a hospital and a rape crisis counselor provides crisis counseling in hospitals immediately after a sexual assault.
Johanna Almstea...: You show up on the scene, not on the scene of the crime, but at the hospital, right?
Melissa Petro: 19-years-old with like a month of training and I was sent and you'd hear the most horrific stories. I would go home and be like, "You're going to hear about this in the news." Never heard about it in the news. Every night, multiple times a night, it was happening in the smallest little place. Cincinnati's big, but like I was going into Covington, Kentucky. It was happening all the time. I mean, talk about traumatic work.
Johanna Almstea...: I was going to say, that sounds a little bit more traumatic than what-
Melissa Petro: It was so intense and I had so many feelings and just the disruption in your sleep is like-
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Melissa Petro: At a certain point, I would just wait for the... Oh, crisis.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. Your cortisol and your nervous system must just sort of be like-
Melissa Petro: Yeah. Then you drive and then you'd have to come back, you go back to sleep, awake again. And then during the day, I played a board housewife. I would just watch Jerry Springer and-
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, God.
Melissa Petro: Do yoga on a mat or a towel in my living room because I had nowhere to go. I didn't have a car. So eventually I asked my boyfriend if I could use his car during the day and I found a strip club.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. And so you started stripping, dancing, stripping? What do you call it?
Melissa Petro: Either way.
Johanna Almstea...: Either one. Either way. During the day, unbeknownst to your boyfriend, and then you still continued doing the rape crisis work at night?
Melissa Petro: In the evenings.
Johanna Almstea...: That's a lot. And you're 19. You're 19.
Melissa Petro: I was 19, maybe 20 by then.
Johanna Almstea...: God.
Melissa Petro: But yeah, just energetically, I couldn't. But at the time I was craving something I couldn't name. I did not need money, not then.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Melissa Petro: I didn't mind money.
Johanna Almstea...: So this was different. This wasn't survival. This wasn't-
Melissa Petro: No, this was loneliness. I was so, so lonely.
Johanna Almstea...: And did it fill that loneliness? Did it change it? You felt better?
Melissa Petro: I mean, it fills it in the way that alcohol fills something.
Johanna Almstea...: Temporarily.
Melissa Petro: Right. It's a solution before it's a problem, but it was also the space I could be myself, interestingly, because the men that I met in a strip club could know everything about me, including the fact that I was a stripper.
Johanna Almstea...: Right.
Melissa Petro: And they were really the only people who knew everything about me. So it was really the only space. I felt more like myself there than anywhere else.
Johanna Almstea...: Which is so interesting because nobody who knew you, allegedly knew you very, very well knew that you had this part of your life-
Melissa Petro: Right. And then it was very much during the Jerry Springer era where there was that... I felt like I was one of those people that had this story that I would never-
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Melissa Petro: That I could never tell. Now I really couldn't tell because now I'm just digging myself deeper, right?
Johanna Almstea...: Right. This is no longer what happens in Mexico, stays in Mexico.
Melissa Petro: Yeah. And my boundaries had become more porous. And even in Mexico, a little extra money and I thought the guy was good-looking, I would bend my rules.
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:24:04]
Melissa Petro: I was good-looking, I would bend my rules about touch.
Johanna Almstea...: Got it.
Melissa Petro: So now I was [inaudible 00:24:07].
Johanna Almstea...: It's like a slippery slope.
Melissa Petro: 100%.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. So what happens next?
Melissa Petro: So this goes on for some time. I graduate from college. I stripped on and off for six years. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to live a decent, normal life with that boyfriend. And I just will never tell him. We'll just move on and start a family. We got engaged. But I don't need to... There are lots of details in my book about that.
Johanna Almstea...: Yes.
Melissa Petro: But ultimately that relationship didn't work out. And I found myself alone again. And that's when I started having sex for money on Craigslist. Very short period of time.
Johanna Almstea...: And this was something that you just thought about? You were like, okay, this is the next step in this, or someone you knew introduced you to it? I wouldn't even know how to do that. Logistically, how did that happen? What was the emotion?
Melissa Petro: Back in the time of Craigslist, so we were all on Craigslist the way we're on Facebook Marketplace now. Imagine there was a tab for sex. Because that's basically what it was. It was like you could buy a couch.
Johanna Almstea...: Find a roommate or...
Melissa Petro: Find a roommate, adopt a pet, trade sex for money, or have sex for free. There's all of these options, and one of them was erotic services. I think it was called.
Johanna Almstea...: And what made you change your path from being physically in a club to doing this sort of one-on-one internet situation?
Melissa Petro: That's a good question.
Johanna Almstea...: Because I feel like I get the... When you described the club and the lights and the crowd and the cheering and the music and the fun of it, that feels very different to me than it would to be like, hey...
Melissa Petro: Well, by then I was old enough to drink and I had started... I was in an MFA program for creative nonfiction and we would go to the bar. By then, my socializing was like you go to the bar and you try to meet someone.
Johanna Almstea...: So you weren't filling that loneliness as much anymore through the dancing?
Melissa Petro: No.
Johanna Almstea...: You actually had friends and a social life and stuff that felt good and fulfilling?
Melissa Petro: No, I was still so lonely. But I wasn't dancing. I wasn't going out dancing with my friends. I was going to the bar. So this was that, but I got paid.
Johanna Almstea...: Got you.
Melissa Petro: So it was basically like, "do you want to buy me a drink?" And then it was sex for money. And it was one-on-one. By then, it's probably like going from cocaine to crack.
Johanna Almstea...: Right.
Melissa Petro: It was more intense.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. And did it feel different? Or did it feel sort of like in the same bucket of like...?
Melissa Petro: By then I was so unwell. I felt like shit because of the breakup. I felt like a monster. He found out that I had danced, that's part of the breakup. But he still wanted to be with me and I had to leave him. So I was a monster in my mind.
Johanna Almstea...: Got it.
Melissa Petro: And I was an alcoholic.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Melissa Petro: And drinking alcoholically. So I felt like it stopped working. I couldn't get a high from it anymore. I could maybe get some relief, but not pleasure, if that makes sense. So it was very fast. I did maybe three months. When I was talking about making money, that was like, I made a lot of money, but I was incredibly compulsive and I worked a lot. So I would meet someone, get my money, meet someone, get my money, meet someone, get my money. Like a rat and a pellet.
Johanna Almstea...: One night?
Melissa Petro: Oh, yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Wow.
Melissa Petro: If I do the math, it's terrifying really, because physically I don't know how my body did it. And it wasn't about money. It was about filling something else.
Johanna Almstea...: It was like chasing the dragon.
Melissa Petro: 100%. It was an addiction. It was compulsive. So that wasn't working for me.
Johanna Almstea...: Right.
Melissa Petro: I couldn't get any relief at a certain point. So we go from like, oh, this is really fun to like, okay, this is relieving to like this, I'm in so much [inaudible 00:28:10].
Johanna Almstea...: Like I'm dead inside.
Melissa Petro: I am dead inside. And this is not like every sex worker story. And sex work is not always this. It's not always this. But for me, that was my story. And I was in therapy. I've tried therapy. I was really just drug seeking actually, and no one would prescribe me anything. They'd tell me to go to try a 12-step program and I would ignore them.
And then eventually... I knew I had a problem with sex. I believed I was a sex addict. And so I was going to go to a 12-step meeting. They have those, SLAA. And it was on Saturday and there was an AA meeting on Friday, that I'd actually gone to with a friend like a month earlier and I was like, "oh, these bitches are cool." It was all women. They're cool. I like these girls, they're fun, too bad they don't drink."
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, my gosh.
Melissa Petro: Because they'd be a lot of fun.
Johanna Almstea...: It'd be so much more fun if they weren't at an AA meeting.
Melissa Petro: Right. These are my people, I can tell. But I wasn't ready to not drink. But at that time, I couldn't make it to the Saturday meeting. I knew I was going to... I couldn't not act out. So I went to that Friday meeting again, that women's meeting.
Johanna Almstea...: As a way of stopping yourself from doing something destructive or that made you feel bad.
Melissa Petro: [inaudible 00:29:28] like self-harm with sex. And I stopped drinking and I'm sober.
Johanna Almstea...: That night you stopped drinking?
Melissa Petro: I did.
Johanna Almstea...: That Friday night?
Melissa Petro: I did.
Johanna Almstea...: Wow.
Melissa Petro: I haven't drank since. I didn't think about it that way, but that's true.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. You were like, okay, I'm going to stop. Stop myself from doing something harmful to myself. And you did.
Melissa Petro: And I knew, I started to put it together that I... There were times I was able to say no to sex when I was sober. But when I was drinking, I couldn't really say no to anything. So it really was a part, it was the alcohol, not only the alcohol, but it was fueled by that.
Johanna Almstea...: They were combo, working in tandem with each other.
Melissa Petro: They're [inaudible 00:30:08].
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. Okay. So you got sober and stopped working in the sex trade?
Melissa Petro: I did.
Johanna Almstea...: And what happened next?
Melissa Petro: And then... I was not even 90-days sober, there was someone else in the program who'd applied to become a New York City teaching fellow and I was unemployed. I had money that I was living off of, but it wasn't going to last forever. And I didn't know what to do with myself after that. And I had the idea like, well, maybe I could apply for the teaching fellows program to set me on a different path.
And so I did. I interviewed. It's a very rigorous program. It's a difficult and prestigious fellowship program. They take people from alternative careers. I was a writer on paper. And they put them into empowered school, like empowered zones, like poverty impoverished. There's a reason these schools are struggling or failing and they need fresh energy teachers. And then this is an accelerated program. You get a teaching degree and then you teach in a struggling school.
Yeah. I felt like I could do it. I interviewed well and they gave me a fellow... I was a teaching fellow. So I started teaching. And I taught art and creative nonfiction. I actually taught art and I turned it into this like arts creative nonfiction program, because they didn't have anything. And basically you just, you're a substitute for when the other teacher needs a break. The art teacher comes in and I could do whatever I wanted. These kids were so highly motivated. The second I walked in the room, they're on their best behavior because they want to work with clay or... They didn't have crayons or paint at home. I think about it now, my son can go paint anytime he wants, but these are children who just like... It was magical. I was magical.
Johanna Almstea...: Right. And did that feel fulfilling?
Melissa Petro: It was very hard actually. It was very hard to wake up and go to work. I would really have to talk myself into it every morning. And I love my job still, but it was just discipline was hard.
Johanna Almstea...: Well, you were used to like having your own... Making your own schedule and making as much money as you want to make, and working as much as you want to work or not work and get drunk. And yeah, I'd imagine those are some...
Melissa Petro: So going all the way to the South Bronx, my commute was intense, very early. I think, what does school start at like 7:30 in the morning? So you're like... That was a very long day, very tiring. I saw eight classes a day of 30 kids. And it was really hard work, very, very hard work, because the kids are kids. And there's a lot of them in that room. Those classrooms were really stuffed.
And I was learning a lot of... And then we had to go to class in the evenings, because we were getting a teaching degree. So I would have to commute to Fordham. And I would take a bus. It was so long. I don't know how I had the energy, but I worked really hard and I was a really good teacher.
Johanna Almstea...: I'm sure you were. I'm sure you were. Okay. So what happens next?
Melissa Petro: One day I was walking up the steps of the building that I taught. It was the beginning, like September of my fourth year as a teacher, and I was approached by a reporter and there was a photographer, and I beelined into the building. It's just funny that I'm not quite sure like the... Is this really what happened first? The first time they ambushed me on the steps, then they came to my house and told me they were going to write a story. I knew what was happening. I knew-
Johanna Almstea...: And they told you where they were from. They were from the New York Post?
Melissa Petro: Yeah. I think he identified himself as a reporter, and he may have asked some sort of question that let me know what the angle of the story was.
By then I had become... I was always a writer, but I had published my first piece. I had published two pieces by then, maybe. One was at this really small literary journal about having been a stripper and having become a teacher. It's The Rumpus. I don't want to say no one reads The Rumpus, but like-
Johanna Almstea...: It's not widely distributed.
Melissa Petro: And it's a friendly audience. No one's going to ambush me at work. But then I had written a piece for the Huffington Post. I was very proud. It was like my first...
Johanna Almstea...: It's a big deal.
Melissa Petro: It was so cool. And Hillary Clinton writes for the Huffington Post, at that time, if you had an op-ed. And that's what they told us to do in school. If you want to be a writer, you got to write, publish your work. And I had done so. Some weeks earlier, I'd written a piece published on the Huffington Post about how I had sold sex.
Johanna Almstea...: So you weren't trying to keep it a secret. You were writing about it in public and having it published on purpose.
Melissa Petro: Right, right.
Johanna Almstea...: When you were doing that, you're trying to build your career as a writer. I know what that's like, like pitching yourself and pitching stories to everybody and doing the things. Did it ever cross your mind that that was going to come back to bite you?
Melissa Petro: Well...
Johanna Almstea...: Or you were just, it felt empowering, it felt good, it felt like-
Melissa Petro: I was transparent along the way with professors, in school. I didn't in my interview, be like, "well, three weeks ago, let me tell you." I wasn't inappropriately forthcoming.
Johanna Almstea...: Right.
Melissa Petro: But I had checked in along the way and been like, "I have this experience and some people might think that's incompatible with elementary school teaching." And people were always like, "well, let's just see what happens." Just keep showing up, basically.
I thought because it was my past. And I felt like... I didn't think my story could be so willfully misconstrued in the way that it was. I thought I was writing for adults. It was a different conversation. I didn't connect it to my teaching in a sense that it didn't bring it into the classroom. It wasn't that... That's like the question I get asked a lot, like, "what were you thinking?" I wasn't. I was thinking I wanted to write and publish my writing. And I could verbally... Come to me and let me explain it. Let me explain myself. Let me tell you. I was just really naive. I just thought-
Johanna Almstea...: And you thought that you were kind of owning your narrative, like you were like, okay, well if I'm-
Melissa Petro: [inaudible 00:37:10] narrative as far as I was concerned. But it was complicated. I didn't say I was victimized. I wasn't a victim of trafficking. And then that was actually what I was arguing in the Huffington Post, that it was of my own volition. I had made this choice. And it's a safer way to do it if you're going to have sex for money. This worked for me until it didn't.
And I was like, you do not need to legislate that away. I didn't need to be protected, which was what was happening at the time. They were shuttering that website and others due to concerns that it was violence against women and children. And I said it wasn't a child and it wasn't... One could argue it's exploitative and violent, but I chose to exploit myself and I wouldn't have stopped, whether it was legal or not.
Johanna Almstea...: It's so interesting to me. I wonder if you had been writing about the fact that you did think it should be shut down. I wonder if the fact that you were sort of standing up for yourself and your free will and your ability to legislate yourself and the choices that you made.
Melissa Petro: To avoid prosecution, of course.
Johanna Almstea...: Right.
Melissa Petro: That's not a popular view.
Johanna Almstea...: Right. So it's so interesting. I wonder if the results would have been different. Okay. So you've written the piece, the piece has been published, so you know it's out in the world. When it was first published, did you get any blowback?
Melissa Petro: No.
Johanna Almstea...: No.
Melissa Petro: No. I had a little clip. And then when the reporter showed up, I knew what was going on, and I did tell my administration. At the end of the day, they called me in and they were like, "this guy's been asking about you." They thought it was my ex-boyfriend. They were trying to protect me. I did tell them what was happening. And yeah, I never went to that building again.
Johanna Almstea...: Wow. Okay. So for people who've not read the book, basically the New York Post publishes a photo of you on the cover, right?
Melissa Petro: Mm-hmm.
Johanna Almstea...: It was on the cover. I forget what the headline was.
Melissa Petro: I don't.
Johanna Almstea...: I'm sure you don't. Can you tell them what the headline was?
Melissa Petro: Bronx Teacher Admits I'm an Ex-hooker. I was really offended because I never called myself a hooker.
Johanna Almstea...: You're like, "let's get the language right, please."
Melissa Petro: Exactly.
Johanna Almstea...: As a writer, I feel strongly about the words you choose to describe me.
Melissa Petro: To be fair, "I'm an ex-hooker," that was not a quote.
Johanna Almstea...: So it kicks off this incredibly traumatic moment in time that happens all very, very quickly. Basically, you have to hire a lawyer, right? Or she comes in-
Melissa Petro: No, I just felt... Just Hail Mary, Gloria Allred.
Johanna Almstea...: Which I was like, "yes." When I saw that in your book, I'm like, "Yeah, girl, you did."
Melissa Petro: I didn't know who she was. She was so generous to take my call and she did work pro bono and she handled everything. And she employs lots and lots of other lawyers to do a lot of the other work, and she does a lot of the public facing work. But I had a whole team that was very, very supportive. And also I had no case. I couldn't retain my job.
Johanna Almstea...: What was the actual... What was the reason? It was like a breach of contract or something?
Melissa Petro: The charges are conduct unbecoming a professional. Conduct unbecoming. And that's a very-
Johanna Almstea...: That seems a little gray.
Melissa Petro: It's very gray. Yeah. So it was a little arguable, you could say. And then we had a free speech case, whether it was... Basically, because I'm a government employee, you can't fire me for speech, right? But if a person's speech creates a distraction in the workplace, then it's ground for termination. And we were going to argue that it wasn't my speech that had created the distraction. It was the speech of the New York Post. And also the distraction needs to outweigh the political importance. So we were going to argue that there was political importance to my speech, but there was no argument. I couldn't have won that case.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. So you kind of...
Melissa Petro: I resigned because they offered me... If I resigned, then they weren't going to fire me for misconduct and I would qualify for unemployment.
Johanna Almstea...: Got it. So at this point you're like, "I need a job."
Melissa Petro: Very pragmatic. Not even I need a job, but I need unemployment.
Johanna Almstea...: I need unemployment. Yeah.
Melissa Petro: And it's funny because they challenged my unemployment anyways. So I had to go back in there and fight for my unemployment, which I did receive. Thank you, that judge. Yeah, it felt very humiliating, because I felt very right, and also I didn't have enough power to fight.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Melissa Petro: And at a certain point, I was just harming myself. They were basically like, "let go of this and it will stop. But so long as you continue fighting..."
Johanna Almstea...: The post is going to put you on the cover every week. Keep going, keep doing it.
Melissa Petro: And even after a year later, they came back and they did another follow-up story on me. So they really did... I later learned the term mass media humiliation, when someone experiences what I experienced. And it's a very traumatic experience to be publicly humiliated in that way.
Johanna Almstea...: It's so wild to me that the things you did, the choices you made, the work that you saw, the piece that you wrote, you putting it out in the public, that all of those things were less traumatic than this, right?
Melissa Petro: Oh, yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: That to me is so... My heart is just so sad, and it's so crazy to me, because even, you may have been misguided a little bit internally of thinking that you were doing the right thing at the time, whatever.
Melissa Petro: Right.
Johanna Almstea...: But you were making your own choices, you were creating your own narrative, you were creating-
Melissa Petro: Right. I made a lot of mistakes. I made missteps. But it-
Johanna Almstea...: But it was yours.
Melissa Petro: Right.
Johanna Almstea...: And that's what feels so different to me, is this, all of a sudden it's like the train leaves the station.
Melissa Petro: That's really the culture we are in. We are in such an unforgiving culture, where if someone makes a misstep. And now people don't get humiliated in the way that I did anymore or the way that Monica Lewinsky... We would choose... Or the Octomom. We really think of these characters, and they're all female, that we've sort of created out of a human being, and then they've become... Like Tan Mom. There's so many people that we just made fun of on a national scale because they did something that we as a society either felt was wrong. How about the woman...
Johanna Almstea...: Amanda Knox? No.
Melissa Petro: Amanda Knox, what was her crime? She did a cartwheel in a hall during... Before that, someone made a really in poor taste joke about going to Africa and getting AIDS, and she was one of the first people to really get... She was just skewered before she even got off the plane. Sacco, maybe her last name was. We find a person who's done something that we think is stupid and then we're just like pitbulls.
Johanna Almstea...: Then it's like vilifying them. Yeah.
Melissa Petro: So back then it was like the media moved a lot slower. Now it can happen, there's a different main character, and actually there's a dozen main characters.
Johanna Almstea...: I was going to say, there's a million main characters a day now.
Melissa Petro: And everyone's angry at everyone for being an idiot. Someone inadvertently posts a picture of their children on Threads because it's connected to their Instagram account, and there'll be 500 comments telling them how their children are going to get abducted and it's their fault. And how could you be so stupid? You mentioned your child's name. And outrage. All the time. Everyone's outraged. People were outraged because I was so dumb. First of all, I was slutty for being a sex worker. That's gross. I wasn't even pretty enough. Oh my God, people were outraged.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, really? Oh, okay. Great.
Melissa Petro: Yeah. A huge debate whether or not I was worth being paid for sex, and then that I would do that is gross. And then that I could talk about it, how offensive was that.
Johanna Almstea...: How dare you.
Melissa Petro: And that I'm attention whore. That was a women's publication called me an attention whore, because I had published my story. I'd somehow masterminded the whole thing. It was all like an effort at publicity. All of these narratives. And that is the culture. And that's still the culture how many decades later? We still live in a world where we're just so quick to outrage when anyone does something we don't understand, and we view negatively. And yes, people make mistakes. The joke that the woman made, it was in poor taste, but the reaction is so outsized.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Melissa Petro: There's no room for nuance. There's no room to look at what one does wrong.
Johanna Almstea...: Or context or explanation.
Melissa Petro: No context, no nuance, just shame.
Johanna Almstea...: So in some of the material around your book, I want to read something for the listeners. "For millions of women, shame is a vicious predator. The constant psychic drumbeat that tells us we are less than, that we are unworthy. We try everything we can to escape shame, ignoring it, intellectualizing it, commodifying it, even ironically shaming ourselves for feeling it. The reality is that women, including femme-presenting trans and non-binary persons, experience shame more frequently and more intensely than men do. A direct result of a patriarchal culture that urges women to feel bad about themselves, then punishes us when we do. Why can't we figure out how to break the shame cycle once and for all?" It's like it's feeding itself.
Melissa Petro: Right.
Johanna Almstea...: That's why I wanted to get to this point in the story-
Melissa Petro: Oh, I'm sorry.
Johanna Almstea...: Because like I had said before, at that moment in Mexico, no one else shamed you directly. You shamed you, because of the patriarchal societal stuff. You had that moment, right? So then automatically you start carrying this... I'm just trying to break this down for our listeners. Like you start carrying this shame, that then feeds on itself, that then other people feed on, and it's just this monster that keeps going.
Melissa Petro: Until it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. When I made that choice, if not for shame, if I had the resilience and the community that I have today and that someone could have intervened and we could have looked at it critically, what's positive, like really teasing out my behavior from myself, which is what I ultimately learned how to do in recovery.
We make bad choices, but we are not bad people. Because if you think you're a bad person, you'll just keep making the same choices, because you can't but make that bad choice. So without that clarity of thinking mired in shame, I just dug more deeply. Because something felt wrong, and the only time it didn't feel wrong was when I was having sex.
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:48:04]
Melissa Petro: Wrong. And the only time I didn't feel wrong was when I was having sex for money, when I was doing the thing. That felt wrong. And I didn't think it was wrong, but it felt wrong. And I couldn't figure it out because it's not wrong. I was so defensive that I couldn't ... Just know it felt wrong. Something feels wrong about this. I couldn't feel it.
Johanna Almstea...: Well, and it's so slippery. It's so mercurial. It's not something that ... And I think that's why I keep bringing it up. It's like if someone had said to you in Mexico that day or your mother had showed up in the strip club and said, "Oh my God, Melissa, what are you doing? How dare you do that?"
Melissa Petro: Shame on you. Yeah. No, that would-
Johanna Almstea...: "Shame on you." You'd be like, "Okay. That was a moment. I have been shamed and now I'm bad and now I have to fix myself." But this other stuff that's in the ether and it's in the media and it's in the conversations in our government and it's all over the place, it's not banging us over the head in the same way that your mother walking into the strip club would have, right?
Melissa Petro: And then there was a moment in my story where my mom did find out and confront me in a very similar way to what you just described. And it wasn't like, okay, you're right, let me think about it. It just drove me even deeper into shame. Shaming, it's never an effective behavior change. We don't modify our behavior because we feel.
Johanna Almstea...: It's not productive.
Melissa Petro: Yeah. It's not constructive. There's no positive to shaming someone. But at least then I would have had that ... And I do have those moments in the story. When my boyfriend found out, when my mother found out when I was humiliated. Those can be an opportunity to reflect and revise the choices you're making. So long as you feel the shame and you're connected to that emotional and somatic experience. But if it just triggers your fight, flight, freeze, or appease, then you're not going to change your behavior and you're not going to learn and truly know what you need. You won't move forward authentically. Instead, I didn't really reconnect to the woman that I was and the goals that I had for myself until I got sober. And I started to learn to feel that feeling and tolerate the pain long enough to know that what it was telling me wasn't true. I wasn't hopeless. I wasn't a bad person. I wasn't a monster. But I had made some mistakes and I wanted to live differently.
Johanna Almstea...: So I thought it was interesting that what ignited you to write the book was actually something so simple. You described being on two group chats, one being these local stay-at-home moms and another being this group of incredibly successful women writers. And that these two seemingly very disparate worlds and very different personality types and different things that you said that everybody on both of those chats, all women, were dealing with the same stuff.
Melissa Petro: They were dealing with the same shame and no one would use that word because we don't generally think of it as I feel ashamed. We just think we just need to do better. We feel a little inadequate. Something's not quite right and it's our fault in our lives. So yeah. I had local mom friends and were trying to do life. And then I have an amazing WhatsApp group of writers who I just think of as the most successful people on earth. I would just die.
Johanna Almstea...: They're your heroes. Yeah.
Melissa Petro: Absolutely. They're thinking of second books and their first books are successful. They have the careers I could only dream of. And everyone's got the same ... Puts themselves down in the same way. No one feels like they're enough because the dishwasher's broken and so their kitchen is in disarray. There was always something they didn't get done that day and felt less than as a result. It was so ubiquitous. It didn't matter who you were. You weren't good enough in your own eyes. You hadn't done enough that day to deserve rest. And I can see it so clearly when it was other women, especially when it was the women that were just beyond successful, like objectively killing it. They were suffering from the same feelings that us regular women were just being buried by.
Johanna Almstea...: And you make the case in the book that this is a feminist issue. This is a patriarchal issue. That we are set up, we as women, whether we are stay at home moms, whether we are New York Times bestselling authors, that we are set up to feel shame because we are never going to do it all. We are never going to catch up basically because the system-
Melissa Petro: And get distracted by-
Johanna Almstea...: The game is rigged.
Melissa Petro: Which I'm noticing right now. Then I'm not engaging politically. We're not using our energy to really address the systems. We're just trying to keep our counters clean.
Johanna Almstea...: We're trying to keep our head above water. Right. And so I think that just goes back to this whole monster that keeps feeding itself, right? The system is not set up for us to succeed wholly. We succeed-
Melissa Petro: You are not a success unless you accomplish this impossibly long list of things that you need to accomplish and one day you're not a success.
Johanna Almstea...: Right. Because if you are like a high-powered CEO who on the books-
Melissa Petro: Well, then you're a shitty mom. What I'm hearing is you're just not at home with your kid.
Johanna Almstea...: You're a shitty mom. Or you're a good mom and you're a good CEO, but you're not a good enough philanthropist or you're-
Melissa Petro: What's your house look like? Or the condition of your car. Well, look at your body or like there's-
Johanna Almstea...: Or you need so much help. Oh, you know what? She needs so much help to keep it going. She has so many nannies.
Melissa Petro: Or you don't have enough money or you have too much money and shame on you for that. It's so impossible.
Johanna Almstea...: It's impossible.
Melissa Petro: To win. It is impossible. And the book is really about how women in particular have these impossible demands placed on them. And it's also true more increasingly so that men also have impossible demands. We want our husbands to be at home, involved with the family, equitable, invisible labor. They have to contribute to ... They have the same responsibilities that we do in the home and they have to provide for us and they have to ... So it's not just women anymore.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. You wrote, women in particular are taught from girlhood that if we just work harder, if only we are good enough, we can somehow do it all on our own. Even shame itself is posited as an individual problem, a symptom of a person's own insecurity. But our problem with shame and its dominance over our society can't be cured with girl boss water bottles or wellness retreats because shame is systemic. It is an inherently political issue and it's a feminist issue.
Melissa Petro: Right. And it maintains the status quo. And when we step out of line, we're shamed, but the status quo is white, it's male, it's able-bodied. And we don't fit it. No one can conform, not entirely. And so we hide the parts of ourselves that don't conform so that we can be respected and that marginalizes others and that marginalizes aspects of ourselves that are just as true as everything else. And that is a kind of death in a way.
Johanna Almstea...: Right. I always like to ask this question, and I'm particularly curious with yours because your journey has been so circuitous. I don't know. When you were young, when you were a little girl, did you have a picture in your mind of what success or what having it all as a woman would look like?
Melissa Petro: When I was little, we moved into my grandmother's basement.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, your description of that basement in the book broke my heart.
Melissa Petro: It's so funny to tell my story knowing someone maybe has read it. I forget the bulk of it. Anyway, yeah. So we didn't have a home. So success for me was having a home. I pictured a home. And it's interesting because in the book Mother Hunger, there's an exercise where she says oftentimes individuals who didn't have the mom they needed have that feeling of homelessness in them and an exercise that can be healing is to envision a home. And so success to me was like a feeling of home.
Johanna Almstea...: In like a physical structure.
Melissa Petro: In a physical structure. So that's always been ... And I will say, like when I became an adult and I got married and we had our first baby, we bought a home, a beautiful, beautiful home. It's actually just going on the market this month and we have to move. So I'm experiencing some feelings of homelessness.
Johanna Almstea...: I was going to say that must be a little bit-
Melissa Petro: But we have to and we're choosing to. We're relocating for my children's school, but I had the most beautiful home and it didn't go away. So the question is, what was like my vision of success? It's a feeling of home and that's like such early, early trauma that I'll always probably just have to feel like a little bit of homelessness. But I can hold it and I can hold any feeling these days. And that's really the success of authenticity and like what I am so grateful for. I have lived in such despair and pain and darkness, lying, hiding, fearing. When I came out of that, I made a decision to never go back. And since then, even though it's caused complications in my life ... All's well that ends well. No, but ultimately-
Johanna Almstea...: Maybe. We're not at the end yet.
Melissa Petro: It is already all's well ... This is beyond my wildest dreams. Like this is success. Success is just being at home in myself.
Johanna Almstea...: Living in the light.
Melissa Petro: Yeah. Being in my body, knowing that I'm doing my best even when I'm fucking up. But being all right with me is a success. That's my vision of success, feeling at home. And I think even now, it's a place we visit, it's not a place we live, that feeling like happiness moves, but like I do get to, and I'm so grateful for my journey, I get to be there very often because I just know that's the right place to be. Even when we're having to admit something seemingly terrible about ourselves, it's always better to be bare than to hide.
Johanna Almstea...: This is one of my favorite questions, and I feel like this is a very good segue into it, and you may have just answered it. But is there something that you once believed about yourself that you now have outgrown?
Melissa Petro: Everything I once believed about myself. And beginning again with that idea of being so exceptional and needing to be exceptional in a way. This idea that like ... For a long time I wanted to write my story and it was a memoir and it was just about me and what happened to me and how I transformed as a result of my experience. My book is in part my story. But I'm so grateful that it was pushed into a direction where I interviewed 150 plus mostly women about their experiences with shame, the moments they've felt inadequate, the parts of themselves they've had to hide out of necessity or fear. It's ubiquitous. We all have shame. We all feel it all the time. And the quicker we can identify it and move through it with grace, the more liberated our lives are, the more free we are to be the empowered people that we are put here to be. So I'm very grateful that I learned it. I'm not unique. None of my story is unique. Anything that I said today where someone would be like, wow, that's ... No. None of it is unique. None of it.
Johanna Almstea...: I thought it was interesting when you would list the excerpts from different women asking them something that they felt shame around and it was so fascinating to me because someone would be like, "I'm terrible at folding laundry." It'd be something so banal, so day to day. And then someone else would say, "I felt shame around the fact that my parents were alcoholics or I had been sexually abused or whatever." And the crazy part to me is, and I know this for a fact in myself, that feeling is the exact same.
Melissa Petro: 100% the same.
Johanna Almstea...: Shame is shame is shame whether you didn't fold the laundry or whether your parents were homeless.
Melissa Petro: When I became a mother and I started to feel the shame that moms feel because I would be walking down the street on a spring day and I would be shamed for my child not wearing shoes or socks or a hat on his head multiple times because we lived on the Upper East Side back then.
Johanna Almstea...: So much shame up there.
Melissa Petro: Really. And I would know intellectually that it was bullshit but it would hit me in the same way. And that's truly how I learned. Whether you burn your kid's waffle and so you're a bad mom or you're being called a fucking hooker teacher on the cover of a newspaper, it's the same feeling. It's the same, I need to hide. I'm inadequate. I am fundamentally flawed and not worthy of love and I better either hide this or change it, but you can't really change it, so I got to hide it. It's such a useless feeling.
Johanna Almstea...: I remember after I had a very traumatic birthing situation with my oldest daughter and my recovery was brutal and people were not really explaining it to me. I learned two years later what actually happened during that birth and how broken I actually was. And I remember instantly feeling not enough and instantly feeling like I was not doing recovery right? Why couldn't I get up and why was I still sitting on a donut and why did it take me 45 minutes to go to the bathroom to put all the things back in place? And I remember seeing ... This was early days of Instagram and a coworker of mine who seemingly on the surface, we used to joke that she would like sneeze and her baby would come out. She like never gained a pound and always had a blowout and her nails were perfectly manicured the minute she went into labor and like whatever.
And she posted a picture of herself while I was in this place sitting on a donut at home, sobbing my head off, getting mastitis and not being able to breastfeed and all this shit. And she posted a picture of herself with two babies on her. She had like a backpack and then she had a baby Bjorn thing on the front. So she had both of her children who were very, very young. They were probably only like a year apart, less than a year. And she had shopping bags on her arms and she had gone to a sample sale and she was posting about how she had walked 20 blocks to get to the sample sale and waited online with her two babies and then had a fabulous shopping experience and had all her shopping bags in her arms. And when I tell you the shame spiral that that one threw me down. What the fuck? Who cares? Why did I care? I could not get that image out of my head for years, literally years. Where I was like, "Wait, she just had a baby too. She's out shopping. She had her second baby. I'm only having my first. Why can't ..."
It was paralyzing, debilitating and so real and so fucking stupid, like so stupid. If I think about that, I'm like, "Really? Is that what you were upset about? You couldn't walk to the ..." No, it had nothing to do with the sample though. It had nothing to do with it. It had to do with me not being enough already. And I'd only been a mother for like three days and I was already fucking it up.
Melissa Petro: And it's supposed to be effortless. And here's a portrait of effortlessness and it may or may not have been effortless for her. We have easier experiences and then we struggle in other ways. My marriage is so hard. That's like my Achilles. And it's me, not only, but it's me too. We all have our vulnerabilities and we have strengths. Some things are effortless. I've got no problem with that. It's easy for me to maintain my weight or whatever it is. And then someone else is struggling with that thing, but they've got a lot of money and they're financially secure and I fucking am not. When we compare our outsides to others, we have an idea of how easy everyone else has it and it's supposed to be effortless. We've been taught all of it is supposed to be effortless and it is so effortful, all of it.
And it is hard to choose what's important to us because someone told you it was important to-
Johanna Almstea...: Everyone.
Melissa Petro: Everyone. Everyone. We have this message. Just like I had this message of how we were supposed to behave sexually and even what we were supposed to desire and not desire, that is so early, early put into our brains that we don't even know what we desire because we've been told what to desire. So really unlearning these things is so hard. It takes so much work. It's a lifetime of work.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. What is an achievement that you're really proud of because-
Melissa Petro: I'm so proud that I published my book.
Johanna Almstea...: Yes, girl. Yes.
Melissa Petro: I worked so hard for so long. I needed to tell my story. I still wanted to be validated in a way. It was also one of the most ... It was one of the biggest disappointments.
Johanna Almstea...: Really? Why?
Melissa Petro: 100%.
Johanna Almstea...: Say more about that.
Melissa Petro: I've had such a painful last couple of years because I had this thing I was devoted to that I loved. I loved working on my book. I loved writing my story. I was going to get it published and then I did. And you would think it would make you so happy, but it's a lot of grief because I don't have that anymore.
Johanna Almstea...: You don't have that anymore.
Melissa Petro: But that was my thing. All I wanted to do in life was publish my book. And then what?
Johanna Almstea...: That's so funny. We just had another author on, and it literally took her 28 years to write her book. She started writing these essays 20 some years ago. And so my next question for you is like, okay, now you've done it. What are you dreaming about now? Because that was your dream and you did it. You fucking did it.
Melissa Petro: I wanted to replace it with like, okay, this is my next dream. I think I want to learn how to be unexceptional in a way. To just embrace ordinary goals and not have that thing. I really had to have that thing. I got that thing. All I wanted to do was to tell my story and I got that. So now my goal is to not replace it with like some rando goal.
Johanna Almstea...: You're like, "And now I'm going to climb Mount Everest."
Melissa Petro: We have to move and find a new home and I'm excited to devote myself. I want to garden again. So I don't want to be like, "Oh, my kids give me purpose." And I want to be better in my marriage.
Johanna Almstea...: It's okay if your kids give you purpose.
Melissa Petro: But they do. My kids give me purpose and I want to be a better wife and mother. How does that sound?
Johanna Almstea...: Ex hooker teacher wants to be a better wife and mother. Fuck her.
Melissa Petro: I know. I know. Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: But that's a great dream. There's nothing wrong with that dream. Why would you shame yourself for having that dream?
Melissa Petro: Yeah. I want to just work on not working on something maybe. And a part of me doesn't. A part of me just wants ... I feel like a huge failure. It wasn't enough. And everyone I talk to that's successful points to someone with a different looking success and says that's ... I have friends who are like, "Well, you were like an Amazon editor's pick and I didn't get that. I didn't get a Kirkus review." And I'm pointing at someone else being like, "I didn't get a New York Times review and I only sold this many thousand copies." And someone else was like, "I didn't sell a thousand." So it's relentless. So I'm working on freeing myself from that.
Johanna Almstea...: How do you do that?
Melissa Petro: So imperfectly. I talk about it. I'm honest about it and then I feel embarrassed because oh, I should just pretend like I'm really successful. I shouldn't tell someone that I feel like a failure because then they'll think I'm a failure. I should tell them how successful I am. It doesn't work for me.
Johanna Almstea...: Does it not feel successful to like look at your book and see it at a bookstore?
Melissa Petro: Honestly, it fills me with feelings of vulnerability. I was going to say it makes me cringe, but I want to think about it. That feeling of cringe means we feel vulnerable. I just feel vulnerable when I see it because-
Johanna Almstea...: Not successful.
Melissa Petro: No. Not really. I felt successful when I sold my book and I loved writing my book, but publishing has just felt like something else that does not feel good. Uncomfortable. But that's okay. learning to be uncomfortable and knowing that that is what connects us to others because we all feel that way about something. That is what makes us human. That is not what makes us need to go hide. That is what makes us need to be together and that makes me better with people. If I can feel that way, then it gives someone else permission to be their full selves and to show me their vulnerabilities. So that's just what I work on.
Johanna Almstea...: That's a lot.
Melissa Petro: It is a lot because sometimes I hang up and I'm like, "Cringe, I shouldn't have said that."
Johanna Almstea...: No. I think it's really beautiful though, because I think there are so many people, like you said, that are looking at you and they're saying, "Damn she did it. She told her story." There's somebody out there who has a story to tell.
Melissa Petro: And I do have those moments also where I'm like, "Damn I did it. I told my story." And I will hang up here and be like ... And actually, I teach at Omega and Esalen Institute and I get to do these in person shame, resilience workshops, and that's when I really feel competent. There are moments when I feel incredibly competent and I have a lot to offer and that is the result of that journey and all that work and I will continue doing that work and I will continue feeling all the other feelings too because that's life.
Johanna Almstea...: Embracing that. Okay. Well, it feels silly to do these because we're talking about heavy stuff, but I want to still do the lightning round of questions because I'm curious.
Melissa Petro: Let's do it.
Johanna Almstea...: I try to always stay curious, but I think I might start with, because you just said something that caught me off guard. So I want to hear something that you are really good at. Tell me something you're really good at.
Melissa Petro: I can make a really good pie crust. I don't need a recipe. Just give me flour and butter and water and I will bake you a pie.
Johanna Almstea...: Is it the Midwestern roots? You went to school in Ohio. Did you live in-
Melissa Petro: I was born in Ohio. It could be an Ohio thing.
Johanna Almstea...: I think it is because my grandma makes the best pie crust and so does my mom and they're both from Ohio. What is something you're really bad at?
Melissa Petro: The word marriage came to mind. I'm bad at love. I'm really working. Love is not like mothering. We think it's intuitive and it's actually.
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:12:04]
Melissa Petro: We think it's intuitive and it's actually, it requires a lot of skills that I don't do this work well relationally. I do it individually. But when I'm in partnership, I fall apart. So that's my practice for now, is learning how to do this work with someone I love.
Johanna Almstea...: What was your first paid job? What was the first time you ever got paid?
Melissa Petro: I washed dishes for cash under the table at 12 at Marvin's Diner.
Johanna Almstea...: Marvin's Diner?
Melissa Petro: And he was such a decrepit, horrible person who would sexually harass us.
Johanna Almstea...: Marvin. Shame on you, Marvin.
Melissa Petro: [inaudible 01:12:38] you, Marvin.
Johanna Almstea...: Shame on you. Favorite comfort food?
Melissa Petro: This is what's going to send someone into a spiral, but I love salads. You know what I mean? Someone else is going to be like, "Oh God, that's so easy for you." But it is. Because I didn't grow up with good food. I grew up with rumen and junk food and sometimes not food. So now when I feed myself well, it is so comforting.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. What's your favorite word?
Melissa Petro: I feel like I must be neurodivergent because now only the word word is in my brain.
Johanna Almstea...: You're a writer and you're a writing teacher. I don't think the word is bad.
Melissa Petro: Don't ask me that. Asking me my favorite book. Do I have a favorite word? I love all words. I love swear words.
Johanna Almstea...: You're allowed to say those.
Melissa Petro: Big words. I love all words.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. You don't have to choose.
Melissa Petro: Thank you.
Johanna Almstea...: Least favorite food.
Melissa Petro: I used to not like beets, but now I love them.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. So they're not your least favorite food anymore?
Melissa Petro: No. That's something I've shared before because I pride myself in liking everything. I think I love all food. Again, I didn't have food when I was a kid, so now food's great all of it.
Johanna Almstea...: You're just like give [inaudible 01:14:01]-
Melissa Petro: I can't imagine ... I can't think of ... And nothing comes to mind.
Johanna Almstea...: Wow. Okay.
Melissa Petro: I know.
Johanna Almstea...: You might get mad at this one too. Least favorite word. What's a word you hate?
Melissa Petro: People don't like the word moist or whatever. I can't think of a word. What words don't you-
Johanna Almstea...: So many people say moist on this podcast, by the way. It's very funny.
Melissa Petro: Again, do I just love everything? I love all food and I love all words. I can't think of something. There's nothing off the table for me. I reject nothing.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. I'm all right with that. I know you probably don't have a lot of time for this because you have lots of things going on, but do you have any hobbies? Do you do anything other than ... Don't say writing and don't say parenting?
Melissa Petro: No. No. I have tons of hobbies actually. I love to garden. And I love to cook. I love to bake. I love to bake. After my book came out I started to bake for my kids' school. They had a teacher's meeting every week and I would bring ... But then it got kind of like I turned it into something else. You got to be careful, you got to stay in the joy of something and not compete with yourself. But I'm really good at that and I love to do it.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Best piece of advice you've ever received?
Melissa Petro: Well, this isn't so much advice, but someone just said ... I'm in this moment in my life where I said to my realtor, I feel like my lucks run out because ... I know what a sad place to be. And I took this as advice, but she said, "Luck doesn't run out."
Johanna Almstea...: I love that. It's everywhere.
Melissa Petro: So I'm clinging to that. I felt like she was like, "Well, the luck you felt you've been making and you're going to keep making it," is what I heard." So keep going-
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, dude. Hear that.
Melissa Petro: So it reassured me in every cell in a way that it just freed me of something I've been really afraid of for some time.
Johanna Almstea...: Did you read Ina Garten's book, I think it's called Be Ready When The Luck Shows Up or something?
Melissa Petro: Mm-mm.
Johanna Almstea...: I read it, and of course I can't remember the title, but it was something about the idea that it's all out there all the time, you just have to be ready for it and embrace it when it shows up.
Melissa Petro: Yeah. And I do that.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Melissa Petro: I do that. But things get hard sometimes when you're like, "Ugh, I don't know how I'm getting out of this one." But that's that feeling again. Remember that feeling where I was like, shit what's going to happen next?
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Melissa Petro: A good thing about me is when I feel that fear, I'm like, "It's going to be something good." And in the end it always is, even if it takes a while to get there.
Johanna Almstea...: That's good. That's faith. You can have faith now in that.
Melissa Petro: Oh, faith. That's that.
Johanna Almstea...: That's what that is.
Melissa Petro: Cool.
Johanna Almstea...: You trust that it's going to be good eventually.
Melissa Petro: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. I'm really curious about this one. If your personality were a flavor, what would it be?
Melissa Petro: Oh gosh. I want to say my favorite flavor, but it's not that at all. My favorite flavor is vanilla.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. I would not describe you as vanilla.
Melissa Petro: I know, right? Can I reclaim vanilla and be like, "It's actually awesome."
Johanna Almstea...: It's actually the raciest, most dynamic flavor on the planet. Sure you can. Obviously.
Melissa Petro: There's something about ... One time I had this guy I was dating and he said, "You're vindaloo. Not everyone's going to like you. You're too spicy ... " He was negging me.
Johanna Almstea...: I was going to say, was this meant to be a compliment or not?
Melissa Petro: Yeah. It was not a compliment, but I could reclaim that and be like, "Yeah, I am spicy. Not everyone can handle vindaloo." But I don't want to believe that I'm vindaloo. I want to actually believe I'm vanilla so that I can give you space, you chocolate chip or you whatever flavor to be your best thing and we'll just jive.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. I'm down with that. I like that.
Melissa Petro: I love this game. Let's do it for hours.
Johanna Almstea...: It's so fun, right? I could do this for hours. Okay. So this I'm curious about because you said that you love food and I've seen on your Instagram where you take your kids and they eat lots of fun foods. Last supper, you're leaving this body and this particular earth tomorrow. What are you eating tonight?
Melissa Petro: I'm that bitch that loves a good salad with protein.
Johanna Almstea...: You're not the only one who has said that. Don't shame yourself about your salad.
Melissa Petro: But I want to say my favorite meal would be like a big salad with protein, like a grilled chicken or something, and then a huge piece of cake.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, okay. Big salad, big cake.
Melissa Petro: Love it.
Johanna Almstea...: Are you drinking anything with this?
Melissa Petro: Seltzer, water-
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Sounds interesting.
Melissa Petro: ... like a Olipop
Johanna Almstea...: Get in there with your Olipop.
Melissa Petro: Why not?
Johanna Almstea...: What flavor Olipop are you getting?
Melissa Petro: I don't know. Vanilla.
Johanna Almstea...: Ah.
Melissa Petro: Yeah. I [inaudible 01:18:45] all the time.
Johanna Almstea...: My kids are like, they're not really allowed to have soda much, but Olipop and Poppi, those other ones, whatever, like my older daughter's obsessed with them. She's so-
Melissa Petro: I still don't feel like they're probably healthy. It's probably, it's healthier-
Johanna Almstea...: Probably not. She's like, "They're healthy, mom." I'm like, "No, they're not." Don't kid yourself. It's fine. We're going to have them sometimes, but we're just not going to pretend.
Melissa Petro: Right. I grew up where if you were thirsty, you didn't get a drink. My kids are so spoiled, there's drinks to drink.
Johanna Almstea...: Beverages of all kinds.
Melissa Petro: Beverages in the fridge and also water. I didn't really realize that was an option in my home. So now I don't even like drinks.
Johanna Almstea...: That's luxurious.
Melissa Petro: Real luxury there.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. I'm curious about this one too. What's a moment in your life where you've had to eat your words or have you had a moment in your life where you've had to eat your words?
Melissa Petro: I mean, a million times in my marriage. I wish I could think of a specific example, but I am constantly humbled. We've been doing couples counseling for like two years and we walked in there like, "Oh, we're in the best place ever." And then we've been in the worst place ever and I am constantly walking in there thinking I am like 100% right and she's just like, "Melissa ... " But that is such an important moment, right?
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Melissa Petro: To pause enough to be like, I could be wrong is real growth for me.
Johanna Almstea...: There is a possibility that I could be wrong.
Melissa Petro: Possibility that my view is not the right view. But yeah, so in my marriage ... I'm sure if I asked him, he'd have very specific examples.
Johanna Almstea...: He's like, "Hold on, let me get you a list." Okay. If you could eat one food for the rest of your life all day, every day, it's going to sustain you. You don't have to worry about like nutritional value. What would you-
Melissa Petro: Am I really going to say salads again?
Johanna Almstea...: You are. I think you are.
Melissa Petro: Asking me the same question though. It's like, what do you like to eat? What do you want to eat?
Johanna Almstea...: I know, but a lot of people have very different answers than this.
Melissa Petro: To all the different questions? I'm not like kind of ... But also, can we please acknowledge that when I say salad, that could mean lots of different things, right?
Johanna Almstea...: This is true.
Melissa Petro: So I'm kind of almost a caveat to the question because it could have 100 different salads, so I never have to eat the same thing, even though I'm eating a salad every time.
Johanna Almstea...: This is true. I could get really hardcore journalist on you and make you tell me what's in the salad, but that would be ... We're not going to do that.
Melissa Petro: That's not the question though.
Johanna Almstea...: That's not the question. You're right.
Melissa Petro: Because you're not asking for recipes, I'm sure.
Johanna Almstea...: You get all the salads you want forever and ever and ever from here to eternity-
Melissa Petro: [inaudible 01:21:29]-
Johanna Almstea...: ... all the salads, all the things. Okay. Where is your happy place?
Melissa Petro: With my family. I love being with my kids and my husband together when we're at our best, when we're driving. It was New Year's Eve, my birthday.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, your birthday's on New Year's Eve?
Melissa Petro: Yeah. We were walking home from the restaurant. We had just had a mediocre dinner.
Johanna Almstea...: I hate mediocre dinners, they made us so mad.
Melissa Petro: I know. They make me mad too, but it was fine because they enjoyed it more. And it was such a clear sky. I forget we were playing ... Oh my God, we were playing this game. I want you to play this game with someone once. It's like, I'm thinking of a thing. And then you-
Johanna Almstea...: Just I'm thinking of a thing.
Melissa Petro: [inaudible 01:22:12] and you get to the thing so fast. Oh, you get to ask questions. Is it-
Johanna Almstea...: Animal, vegetable, mineral kind of thing?
Melissa Petro: Yeah. Like you start to ask, but it only takes ... You get to it so fast, sometimes remarkably fast. We were playing that game as we were walking and it was just such a fun moment and I was so happy.
Johanna Almstea...: That's lovely. That's so nice.
Melissa Petro: Thanks for making me think of it.
Johanna Almstea...: You're welcome. What did you have for dinner last night?
Melissa Petro: If I said salad, would you ...
Johanna Almstea...: I mean, you would be consistent.
Melissa Petro: I did not. I had a Trader Joe's Pad Thai microwave meal with sauteed green beans and chicken breast.
Johanna Almstea...: All right.
Melissa Petro: And my husband had something else and my kids had something else. And that's what I've been doing sometimes is I feed myself what I want and they can sort themselves out.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, I like this.
Melissa Petro: I know that's new for me because before I'd be like, "What does everyone want?" And I do still feed my kids clearly because they're still too young to ... But I don't have to eat what they eat.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, you don't have to eat what they eat. For sure.
Melissa Petro: That's new information for me because before ... I do like to make dinner for the whole family though sometimes, which I didn't used to do ever.
Johanna Almstea...: So that's new for you too.
Melissa Petro: A lot of the habit.
Johanna Almstea...: What do you wear when you feel like you need to take on the world?
Melissa Petro: Oh. So that's one thing about me, you know how you feel like you have to be really good at everything?
Johanna Almstea...: Mm-hmm.
Melissa Petro: And work out. And I keep a really cool home. People walk into my house and they're like, "Your house is gorgeous." And it is because I care about that. You know what I mean? I study-
Johanna Almstea...: It's a priority. Yeah.
Melissa Petro: Yeah. And it's like my whole Instagram feed is interior design. I have no idea what's in fashion and I don't know makeup, I borrowed my kids' makeup. I'm not joking. I took makeup out of my six year old's room so I could wear makeup, but I never wear makeup and I don't care what I'm wearing. I think my clothes are from Duane Reade, honestly.
Johanna Almstea...: Do they sell clothes at Duane Reade?
Melissa Petro: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: I didn't know that. Okay.
Melissa Petro: I don't own a pair of shoes that I didn't buy at a thrift store.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Melissa Petro: At the moment, I don't care what-
Johanna Almstea...: It doesn't affect how you feel. It doesn't affect how you feel like you're showing up in the world.
Melissa Petro: I used to think about it, but now if it's comfortable, this sweater is cashmere, but it's my husband's and he shrunk it. So, that's what-
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, I love when that happens. I steal those.
Melissa Petro: Yeah. It's super cozy, but I don't really think about it. That and makeup, I don't really think about.
Johanna Almstea...: Wow. That's very freeing. That's so nice.
Melissa Petro: I know, right?
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, totally. Most memorable meal you've ever had.
Melissa Petro: Oh my God. So I just wrote that piece for Travel and Leisure about the dinner at Levant, and that was in Puerto Rico, San Juan, Puerto Rico. It's a six star Michelin restaurant. Is that many stars?
Johanna Almstea...: And you even have six stars?
Melissa Petro: No, it's like-
Johanna Almstea...: Many, many stars.
Melissa Petro: Read my article because I say it in there. It's like award-winning, but it wasn't like you know when food's expensive and small and weird and you're like ... It wasn't like that. It was really accessible, but it was again, because everyone was having such a fun time. My daughter recently said that was her favorite meal. She's six. It was the most beautiful meal I've ever had in my life. And my wedding, even though the food, I don't remember it, but all of it.
Johanna Almstea...: The vibe. Yeah. Okay. Go to coping mechanism on a bad day. Things are going wrong, what do you do?
Melissa Petro: Like not shout at my husband, but what [inaudible 01:26:02]-
Johanna Almstea...: Well, that could be a coping mechanism. No judgment here.
Melissa Petro: I listen to Dharma Talks.
Johanna Almstea...: What is that?
Melissa Petro: Dharma Talk is like, well, it's like secular Buddhism. It would be like a sermon except Buddhist.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Melissa Petro: So I listen to Tara Brach a lot. I used to listen to Dharma Punks, which is a particular sangha in New York City.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, you talk about that in the book. I didn't know what that was.
Melissa Petro: Really?
Johanna Almstea...: And I did not research it. No.
Melissa Petro: It's like if you're ... Well, you're not Buddhist.
Johanna Almstea...: Right. I'm not.
Melissa Petro: So it would be, and I don't know about other religions, so I can't do a lot of the ... I'm thinking it's like if you would go to church and listen to a sermon.
Johanna Almstea...: Listen to a sermon. Yeah. Okay.
Melissa Petro: If you're a part of a sangha, you would go and sit in community and then there's the sermon, which is the talk, dharma talk. And then there's meditation generally. And that's what I'll do when I'm desperate.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. That seems like a very healthy coping mechanism.
Melissa Petro: Yeah, it is.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. This is going to be a good one. I'm so curious. Dream dinner party guest list, dead or alive, famous or not, whoever you want. Who are you inviting?
Melissa Petro: I have this fantasy, but I also feel entitled and kind of mad that it hasn't happened. Why am I and Amanda Knox and Monica Lewinsky not all in the same room?
Johanna Almstea...: Totally. Oh my God. Wait, so let's get you guys on a panel. Everybody needs to be talking about shame and resilience together.
Melissa Petro: And you want to know what I think?
Johanna Almstea...: What?
Melissa Petro: I think they don't want to be associated with me because I was a sex worker.
Johanna Almstea...: Really?
Melissa Petro: First of all, they're really thinking about me.
Johanna Almstea...: I was going to say, I don't think that that's really happening.
Melissa Petro: That is some fucked up shame faced thinking, right?
Johanna Almstea...: There you go.
Melissa Petro: I'm so important. They're like, "I don't like her." They're not. They have zero opinion on me, I promise. That is probably true.
Johanna Almstea...: Wait, you need to get yourself on Monica Lewinsky's podcast.
Melissa Petro: And you don't think I've tried. Her publicist ... I've been in her inbox multiple times. [inaudible 01:28:04]-
Johanna Almstea...: Are you being gate kept?
Melissa Petro: No. Honestly, I'm sure not personal and yet we take it personally. I tried because I do believe it's the same. This idea of committing to who you are when the world is telling you that you're just like a terrible, wrong, bad person, it creates a superpower. It really does. And so women who have had that, who've done that and lived through that, and now your entire thing is to just show other people that you can do that. Yeah, I want to be in a room with them.
Johanna Almstea...: With all women doing that-
Melissa Petro: All of them. Put the Octomom in there. Who's the one that beat in the knees of her competitor? Tonya Harding [inaudible 01:28:47]-
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, Tonya Harding.
Melissa Petro: ... too. I'm not going to agree with everyone. You know what I mean? Some of us have done some shit.
Johanna Almstea...: Mary Jo Buttafuoco.
Melissa Petro: Yeah, yeah. Put her there. Put her and Amy Fisher.
Johanna Almstea...: And Amy Fisher.
Melissa Petro: And can we all get along? Let's try it and see in what ways we are all human and we are all doing our best and constrained by the same forces of gender oftentimes.
Johanna Almstea...: All right. I like that. Maybe it could be sponsored by The New York Post.
Melissa Petro: And you know who can be in there? What's her name from The New York Post? There's a terrible reporter who I ... Andrea Peyser, she wrote some horrible about me. She can come.
Johanna Almstea...: Is she the one that you met with though? No, you met with somebody else.
Melissa Petro: I met with Tara Palmeri and she's big now. Yeah, we have that-
Johanna Almstea...: I love that part of the book. I love that you met with her and talked through it. And I loved her point of view.
Melissa Petro: Yeah, no, I was really appreciative. I actually dated a guy that worked in The New York Post. That's in our research for a long time.
Johanna Almstea...: So you brought it on yourself.
Melissa Petro: No, afterwards.
Johanna Almstea...: Afterwards. Oh my gosh.
Melissa Petro: Way afterwards. Yeah. I had this huge fantasy that I'd go to their Christmas party and show up. I was like a fantasy.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, no, that's good.
Melissa Petro: Be in conversation with someone and they'd be like [inaudible 01:30:07]-
Johanna Almstea...: ... I think you need to write a fiction book.
Melissa Petro: Honestly, I would rather-
Johanna Almstea...: About that.
Melissa Petro: ... mingle with all the women that have been willfully misconstrued and misunderstood publicly and humiliated. Put me at a table with all of us.
Johanna Almstea...: Wait, I want you to write that story.
Melissa Petro: I don't like big tables though because you can't talk to everyone.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, okay. Yeah. I like a big table. I like shouting across a table. I like a lot of-
Melissa Petro: You aren't though, you end up just being with the people next to you.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Melissa Petro: Well, maybe not you because you're shouting across the ...
Johanna Almstea...: I shout at people. I do a lot of flitting around.
Melissa Petro: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: So I don't mind a long table. Okay. So lastly, I want to know one thing that you know for sure right now today here in this moment you didn't need to know it yesterday, you don't need to know it tomorrow, what do you know right now?
Melissa Petro: I'm doing good.
Johanna Almstea...: You are doing good.
Melissa Petro: I need reassurance all the time and I usually think I need it from my husband.
Johanna Almstea...: Nope.
Melissa Petro: That's a problem. I mean, I'm judging myself for that answer because it feels-
Johanna Almstea...: Why? Stop judging yourself.
Melissa Petro: It feels self-centered, but it's my life's work-
Johanna Almstea...: But it's also supposed to be self-centered because it's one thing you know for sure. It's not anybody else.
Melissa Petro: Yeah, but it could be like political or you know what I mean?
Johanna Almstea...: Who knows anything about the policy?
Melissa Petro: [inaudible 01:31:24] I'd say something. All that shit I want to forgive myself and in this moment I can. I've really enjoyed this conversation actually.
Johanna Almstea...: Aw, thank you.
Melissa Petro: Thank you for doing it and for ... I hope other people appreciate it.
Johanna Almstea...: They do. They do seem to appreciate it. We've had a really wonderful response so far. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Can you tell the nice people who are listening, where they can find you, where they can buy your book, where they can learn more about your seminars?
Melissa Petro: I have a website that you can find out all the things. I say I'm a book coach. I heard someone describe themselves as a life story coach and I love that.
Johanna Almstea...: Ooh. I know.
Melissa Petro: [inaudible 01:32:06] right?
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Melissa Petro: Everyone thinks they want to write a book, but sometimes people just want to know their story, they want to write their life story.
Johanna Almstea...: So can you tell people what the website is, www.?
Melissa Petro: Melissa-Petro.com. And that usually has information about all the different courses that I'm teaching and other opportunities to work with me.
Johanna Almstea...: Amazing.
Melissa Petro: And my book.
Johanna Almstea...: Thank you so much for taking so much time with me and being so open and being so true and being so clear about your story. I really appreciate it. And I'm so, so grateful for this time. This has been a real gift and I know it's going to change people's lives by listening to your story.
Melissa Petro: Aw.
Johanna Almstea...: It's true. I really mean that.
Melissa Petro: Thank you.
Johanna Almstea...: Thank you for being here.
Well, that was a lot. Thank you all for joining us for this kind of intense and sort of difficult conversation when we think about this stuff. I hope that this conversation made you think. I hope that this conversation made you feel something and I hope you learned something from this conversation. So as always, we thank you so much for tuning in. We thank you for your support. If there's anyone that you think might benefit from this episode, please share it with them. You can copy it in your media player. If you're listening on Spotify or Apple Music or one of the other ones, you can just go right in and say share. Click on that and it'll give you an opportunity to copy the link and then you can paste that link in a social media post, you can paste it in a DM, you can text it to someone, you can email it to someone. And every time you guys share these episodes, it helps us immensely. So thank you, thank you, thank you.
If you're not doing so already, please follow us on social media. We're at Eat My Words, the podcast on Instagram and TikTok. And as always, we are incredibly grateful that you continue to tune in. You continue to listen to hard conversations, fun conversations, hilarious conversations, and that you join us in this community. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And I will catch you on the next one.
This podcast has been created and directed by me, Johanna Almstead, our producer is Sophie Drouin, our audio editor is Isabel Robertson, and our brand manager is Mila Boujnah.
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [01:35:05]