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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the Bible. Let's get into the episode.
Madison Moses:Welcome back to the debrief podcast with Matthew Steven Brown. I am your cohost today, Madison Moses, aka Madison Brown, Lake Lee, and your amazing Eldest.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Yes. Changed my life.
Madison Moses:Changed your life recently too.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Stressed me out. Yeah. Yeah. Became a grandmother, or I became a grandfather. Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You became a mother, I became a grandfather.
Madison Moses:Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And it's been a very crazy journey.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:By the way, everybody asks me what am I what are we gonna be called? We're going by grandma and grandpa. Like, we're just like, we're going like old school traditional. Like, I don't want like a nickname, poo paw, pee pee, wee wee, you know?
Madison Moses:Yeah. I was pretty I was gonna let you guys pick, but I also was pretty anti that also
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:of And for everybody out there who has nicknames, that's great. We're just we're just I'm not criticizing
Madison Moses:We're straightforward. There's too many labels this day and age. I needed to be Yeah. Clear. So we can edit that out if we didn't like that.
Madison Moses:No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was great.
Madison Moses:Okay. Okay. Let's jump in. This episode has to do with friendships,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:which I know.
Madison Moses:I actually love that I'm co hosting today because if I could summarize most of what you've counseled me in my entire life, it's friendships. Yeah. Whether they've gone good or bad. So I love that. Alright.
Madison Moses:Cindy from Moreno Valley, California says, at what point do you completely release friendships if they're only one-sided? She feels like she's the one always reaching out, texting friends, seeing how they are, and sort of just gets either left on read or never gets followed back on. And she's saying that they're mostly her so called Christian friends, and that her non church friends are way nicer to her. So when should she release friends?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Well, Cindy, first of all, let me just say I'm sorry about that. And so just know that the church is a complex thing. So let's take your friends that you have outside the church, and then let's talk about your friends inside the church. So your friends that you have outside the church, these are people that you've naturally bonded with, connected with through the years, and chosen to be friends.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Your church friends are people that you've met at church, and you share a common interest in Jesus, and so then you're thrust into a friendship because of your religious faith. So I just want you to look at that and see that one organically developed over time because of your preference, and the other was thrust upon you because of your faith. And so the criticism is that my friendships that were thrust upon me because of my faith are not as good as the friendships that organically grew through our mutual choice, okay? And so I just want you to see that, that it's more difficult to love and relate to people where you're choosing to love, care for each other, and be friends because of a commandment over a choice. So church friendships are way harder than natural friendships.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now, if you've been at church long enough, then this can do this. Boom. And then you become friends that you've chosen that you love and you like. That's a good thing, but then that becomes a challenge for me as a pastor, because you become us four no more. You don't want the church to grow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You don't want people in your small group. You don't want to serve. You come to the church because it's a social gathering. And I would say this, most people that leave Sandals Church do not leave Sandals Church because of theological reasons. They leave because a friend leaves.
Madison Moses:Yep.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They go to another church. And now these people, right, because the only association they had with Sandals is this friend, and so guess what they do? They go to that church. And it's actually a real problem theologically because your commitment as a Christian is greater to your friends than your calling to your church. And we're called to love and care for the church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, if Tammy and I had to leave Sandals Church every time a friend left, we would have left twenty five years ago, our calling is here. So it's a really, really difficult thing in the church. And so on the one hand, I'm hoping, Cindy, that you will get friends and friendships that are as deep at the church that you have in real life. But if you ever make that, I want to caution you to be very careful. Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because your loyalty cannot be to your friends at the church that you attend. Your loyalty has to be to Jesus. And when you leave, if the Holy Spirit is calling you to leave, that's great. I don't know that the Holy Spirit does that a whole lot because, you know, I really, and I hope I can do this. I haven't got there yet.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Every time I say this, I get more and more nervous, but I want to love one woman my whole life and one church my whole life. I just am not a big believer in leaving and abandoning things. I just don't believe that. And now, if the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, clearly I got to go, then I would bounce that off. Some people that I know, love and respect and trust, who are at Sandals and are not calling, I wouldn't say, hey, you guys want to come with me?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Let's pray about this. This is great opportunity, because I don't that's really hard for me to just distinguish. So I would just say, first of all, Cindy, I'm sorry. I praise God that you have friendships outside the church, and I would just tell the Lord thank you for that. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I appreciate them. But here's what I would I would ask. Is there some sin that's in your life, Cindy, where you still feel comfortable with these people? So that's what I see. Like when I hear, well, I can just be myself around my friends who are outside the church, that usually signals to me, okay, there's some things in your life that you don't want to be called on.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because non Christians don't hold us accountable to be Christians. Yeah. So a lot of times, well, I can drink, I can smoke weed, and I'm not saying you're doing that, but I can watch movies that I And not feel judged and not feel convicted. Okay. Well, we are called to have judgment, and we do need friends to say, hey, I feel like this movie's inappropriate, or we shouldn't be watching this, or we shouldn't be doing this, or we shouldn't be engaging this, because this is Christ like.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I would evaluate that. Now let's talk about your friends. I always feel like I'm the one reaching out, texting to see what they're doing, and I always hear I will get back to you. What I would just say with your Christian friends is I would just lovingly confront and say, Hey, you know, here's my expectation from Christian friends, that when we say something, we're going to do it. And so when you tell them you're going to text me back, I would like you to text me back.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And when you say, I miss you too, friendships have to have two sides. So a lot of Christians struggle with this, Cindy. Most Christians would say they're faithful in church. They go regularly. They go faithfully.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Many Christians would say that they don't miss. Here's what the stats say. The stats say that Christians attend about 50% less to the public worship service today than they did prior to the pandemic. So what does that mean, Cindy? Christians lie to themselves every day about the level of their consistency in relationships with God and with other believers.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think COVID has broken us all in natural, normal expectations with God and with each other, and we need to work at rebuilding that because the new norm is what you're experiencing, very unrelational.
Madison Moses:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We just kind of got self involved, self connected, and we've really broken down relationally in a lot of ways. And this just isn't in the church, this isn't just in your life, this is across the board. And what's sad, Cindy, is a lot of people are like you. They feel very sad and very lonely, but they don't know how to fix it. In The UK, did you guys know this?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That loneliness has been declared an epidemic in The UK.
Madison Moses:And
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it's because they've become unchurched. So things are changing, culture's changing. We're becoming lonelier and more isolated, and our phones are not relationships. Scrolling is not a relationship. And so what I would just say, Cindy, is talk to them, be loving, don't be judgmental, don't be mean, don't be cruel, but just merely share and just say, hey, I'd like to do that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then if that doesn't work, what I would say is get in a new small group, connect with new people, find friends, and be open and honest upfront. You know, just like you're dating. Like, I'm dating You know, I'm looking for friendships who are looking for friendships. And here's what I mean by friendships. We talk, we call, we connect.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, I'm not looking for high school reunions. Know, hey, ten years from now, it's great to see you, we should do this again, and everybody knows you're not doing it.
Madison Moses:It's not happening, yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's not happening. So I would just be real open and real honest. And Cindy, what I would say is it looks like to me, you're just more gifted relationally than most people. So here's the problem with gifting. When we're gifted in an area, we assume it's normal.
Madison Moses:That is true.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's not. Yeah. It is not. And so then we become critical of other people because they don't have the same gifting we do. And so I would just go before the Lord and repent and say, Lord, you've given me this relational gifting, I'm good at being friends.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's not a pride statement. It's not a pride statement for me to say I'm good at talking. That's a fact. The Lord gave me the gift of gap. Now what I do with that, I need to control,
Scott Schutte:but
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm not the best at helping people preach sermons.
Madison Moses:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because I don't really always know how I do what I do.
Madison Moses:It just happens to
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It just happens. The Lord gave it to me. So I often send people to Claude who is much better, pastor Claude at our church, at teaching people how to preach. He's much better at it than me. So because I don't always know why I do what I do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:One time Rick Warren and I were on a phone call together and he asked me, he said, why wasn't that thing you said a point? He said, I would have written that down. I said, well, because I didn't know I was going to say it. Yeah. It wasn't something that I had crafted as I was building my message, it's something that the Holy Spirit just spoke through me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He said, well, you seem to do that a lot. I said, well, that's how the Holy Spirit works for me. So I can't sit in my office and go say something clever, say something gifted. That's just not the way that the Holy Spirit works for me. So Cindy, I would say you have a gifting, and maybe what you can do is you can help people say, hey, here's one of the things that I've learned as a good friend.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We call back, we text, we check-in. And you know, I would just say that if you want to be a better friend, here's some things that I would encourage you to get better at. And so, and you're going to hear, everybody's busy. Everybody's busy. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so busyness is not an excuse to suck at friendships. And so Yeah. And I've had to apologize before.
Madison Moses:Same.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, and just say, hey, haven't been the friend that I needed to be. Mhmm. So
Madison Moses:So if you could, because she wants to know at what point do you completely release friendships if they're only one-sided? I feel like it starts with evaluating, is this person worth it? And then, I mean, what would you say? Like, when she feels like she's at that point, how does she determine like, hey, maybe it's just this isn't the season for it anymore. I think she's struggling with Yeah.
Madison Moses:Maybe feeling like, well, how do you know? Like, what is it that needs to happen for me to go, okay. Yeah. Like, isn't the time anymore. I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:think when you are struggling with whether or not you should let it go, you know. That's the sign. Number one sign. When you're like, hey, isn't, when you're questioning, should I let this go? I think that's your sign.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now that doesn't mean you gossip about them, you slander them, you hate them. It's okay to have colleagues at church. There's nothing sinful about, you know, hey, you know, man, I love you. How long have been at Sandals? I'm pointing to Colonel, he's on our debrief team.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Years. Years. Have you and I ever gone out to lunch together? Just me and you. No, but I love you, I care for you, I appreciate you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We don't have a friendship that way. Every time I see you though, I like seeing you, but we don't put the expectations of friendship on each other. We're colleagues for the king. And that's okay. It's okay to have colleagues at church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:These are people that you care about, you love, you appreciate, you're rooting for, you can learn from. Friendship is a different category. And Cindy, I've gotten really hurt in church by assuming that ministry is friendship. And I'm not saying, you know
Madison Moses:We're separate from Joel now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, separate from Colonel. People that I'm ministering to are not my friends. Oftentimes employees, not employees, people that I employ are not my friends, but we have a proximity and we work together. And so then I get hurt when they go to another church or they get another job and I realize, oh, wait a So I think you have to really discern, Cindy, what are friendships and who are my friends? And when you're clear about that, you're going to feel a lot better and you won't be judgmental, you won't be angry, you won't be upset, and you won't get hurt as often because colleagues get jobs at other places.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's a thing colleagues do. That's a healthy, normal part of life. It's hard when friends choose to make more money somewhere else and leave you. That's hard. And so that's something that I wish both Tammy and I, your mom and I would have learned years ago.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think we would have been much better at letting people go and blessing them on the way out. But we thought we were friends. Yeah. And it's hard for friends to choose something that's better, different, or far away.
Madison Moses:So Yeah. Yeah. Making sure you are on equal playing field, on the same page, using the same definitions, feel like is so huge when it comes to friendship. I love that you said that that if you're questioning it Yeah. You know.
Madison Moses:Probably your answer. And I think something to be like encouraged by is releasing friends doesn't mean we don't talk to them. Doesn't mean that we're not it's not even that you're not friendly anymore. It doesn't mean you failed. It doesn't mean you anything.
Madison Moses:It it's just a different season. It's a different level. And I think the sooner you can make peace with that, the more peace you'll feel.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think it's this. It's reducing expectations. Yeah. That's what it is. So I have expectations of my colleagues.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Show up on time, do your job, do it well. Friendships, it's what you said, I have expectations. Hey, it was your birthday. Hey, I heard you had a grandkid. Hey, I heard you're sick.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, can I meet your needs? You know, so friendships have a different level of expectations. And the thing that's hard about friendship is it's like marriage, you both have to decide.
Madison Moses:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think friendships are harder than marriage because when you get married, you got the law involved. It's a little harder to break Yeah, to different
Madison Moses:level of commitment.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But friendship is challenging. And single people out there everywhere and young people, it's harder than ever to make friends because social media and the internet gives the illusion of friendship and relationship.
Madison Moses:Yes, it does.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's just not. And a lot of people who think they have ton of friends on Facebook, no, no, you're all sharing the news. Everybody's watching each other's news. That's not friendship. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, friend is, how are you? Mhmm. What's going on? Yeah. How can I be praying for you?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, yeah, tough question. Cindy, I'll be praying for Question for
Madison Moses:Yeah. And we're sorry, Cindy. That's just such a, it's not a fun season. Alright. Juanita from Hesperia, California.
Madison Moses:I have found myself really alone recently. My friends have stopped talking to me and it feels like nobody cares for me deeply. How do I know if God is putting me in a season of separation from people or if I need to be a better person in my relationships? I have asked close people to me if I've done anything wrong and they've said no. So I feel really confused as to why everyone has left at the same time.
Madison Moses:Is this a spiritual attack? That is a lot of questions Yeah. In one. So maybe take it one at a time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So let me just say, Juanita, that I'm sorry that your friends have stopped talking to you. That's very, very painful. One of the things I have a lot of experience with is I have a lot of relational breakups. Thousands.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Thousands. I mean, people always greet me with, I used to go to your church, that's a breakup. It's like, oh, I didn't even know I got dumped, thank you very much. You know, and people don't mean they don't know that that's hurtful, and they don't mean to be hurtful, but it is hurtful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. So I've gone through this, and so let me just say I'm so sorry. But you said it feels like nobody cares for you deeply, so let's stop there because your last question is, is it a spiritual attack? Yes, that's a spiritual attack. Because Jesus cares for you deeply.
Madison Moses:Yes, he does.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what the devil tries to do is he tries to get us to look at the fallenness of human beings and to prove from their sin that we're worthless. Because what he can't do is let you look at Jesus, because Jesus proves your worth every single day by the cross and what he did. And so I would just say yes to your under spiritual attack because you are worth everything, and the Lord loves you and has a plan for your life, and you matter. And my prayer for you is that one day you will meet people who can affirm that in your life. So how do I know if God is putting me in a season of separation from people?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't think God does that. It can happen. But God has put us in a season, as Christians, of unity and relationships. That's what the purpose of church is. So Hebrews ten twenty four-twenty five says, Let us not forsake the gathering of believers as some people are in the habit of doing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's not what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to gather and connect. So the Lord's Supper, the cracker and the juice that we share originally was a love feast, like a meal together, where we're enjoying food, we're enjoying each other, we're relating, we're praying, we're hearing what's going on in your life, what's in my life, right? So the Holy Spirit is pushing us into relationships. Now, it may not be the relationships we want, but it's always the relationships that we need.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I would just encourage you to say, no, that's not the Lord, unless you're in relation with some dysfunctional, sinful people. And then yeah, God could be doing that. You said, Or if I need to be a better person in my relationships, I've asked people close to me if I've done anything wrong, and they've said no. And so here's what I would say. Juanita, a podcast is not a pastor.
Madison Moses:So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I wish I could sit with you, watch you, interact with you in order to answer this question. So I would say whatever campus you're going to, I would get some time with the campus pastor. It may take a couple of visits for people to see your nuances, to see how you act, because you could be giving off a vibe that's causing people to withdraw from you. And here's what I've learned, most people would rather lie to you than be honest with you and hurt you.
Madison Moses:That is so true.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm just telling you. And why is that? Before we judge people, it's because when we're truthful with people, most people don't like that.
Madison Moses:Eight out of 10 times, it usually does not go well for the person.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. So we have to give people grace. And man, when somebody is honest with us, we got to really suck it up and not get hurt feelings and not lash out and say, thank you. Thank you for being honest with me. So you can't press in, because what I would say is either they don't trust you that you can handle it, or they're just, they don't love you enough to just be honest with you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because a real friend, right, is willing to hurt your feelings. Not to hurt your feelings, but because they love you. And that's just so, so hard. And you said, I feel really confused. Man, it is confusing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's confusing when people aren't honest with us. And that's just our culture. People will talk behind our backs, but not to our faces. And friends are people that will talk to your face and say, hey, you're doing this, this is happening. But here's the thing, Juanita, you got to be honest.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Have they talked to you about it? Because maybe they feel like, I tried and it didn't work, or you didn't receive it, or you defended and deflected. And that's what I When I challenge people very few times or somebody like, thank you, they defend and deflect. No, that's not what I meant. That's not what I did.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's not what happened. And then I go, okay, they're not in a position to receive this. So you said, I feel so really confused as to why it feels like everyone has left at the same time. So sometime there are seasons where we have great friendships. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sometimes there are seasons where we feel very alone. I wouldn't put that on God, I would put that on the reality of life. There are good days and there are bad days. God is the God of both days. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:God is the God of great friendships and God is the God of when I have no friendships. And so we have to make sure that we don't feel isolated from God or feel like we're being punished from God because of what people are doing. Yeah. We have to stay connected with Him. And so I just want to encourage you, talk to one of your campus pastors, reach out to Soul Care at Sandals Church, and really, really work through this, because this last week I preached on discernment.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's really hard to discern the subtle nuances of relationships. It's not easy. And it's really hard to pick up on eye contact, face contact. You to watch the whole person as you're talking, you know? Because sometimes like you could ask me, Juanita, am I doing something wrong, you know, in our relationship?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I could go, no. But my face just told you yes. So watch my face. And then you could say, well, you're saying no, but your face is saying yes. Is there a way, what could I do to make you feel safe so that you could share with me whatever you're feeling?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because I need this. I need to know if it's something I'm doing. Am I being overly negative, overly critical? Do I put myself down all the time? I mean, there's things that people do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:One of the things that people do when I'm around is they put themselves down because they think I'm a holy man, so they make themselves a sinful man. And they publicly beat themselves up in front of me and I'll say, stop doing that. You're way too hard on yourself. You know, because I don't want to be around people that are like, I'm terrible, I'm awful, I'm no good, suck, I'm lame. You know, all you're doing is reinforcing to people that that's not what I want.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I'll just say, hey, I spend time with you, I don't want you to beat yourself up. That's not why we're here.
Madison Moses:I actually just had that conversation with someone, and it surprisingly went very well. Because it came from a place of, I don't think that about you. I love you. I actually think this and this and this of you, and what I think's not truth, but it does make it hard because I see how worthy and lovable and whatever you are. And when you talk down on yourself, it just Yeah.
Madison Moses:It's hard. Yeah. It's actually hard to hear and participate in, and so
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think it's a natural human experience when we're with someone that we feel like is better than us. And feel this when I'm with people that's more successful, done better in life. You feel unworthy, and so what comes out of your mouth is negative, unworthy statements, self loathing. And it's not humility, it's sin. Oh, wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because you are a creature of God. You are created in the image of God. It's okay to say, I did this and that is sin. It's not okay to say, I'm terrible and awful, ugly and no good, and I don't reflect the image and character of Jesus, because I do.
Madison Moses:Oh, wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's imprinted upon me with his blood. Like he is one with me. The Holy Spirit of God lives within me. I'm the temple of the living God. And so it's okay for me to say I've sinned, I've blown it, I messed up, but I have to confess that and then run back to the truth of who I am, a child of God.
Madison Moses:That was so good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, yeah, because the devil loves to do that. We're no good. Yeah. What we need to say is, no, the sin I've committed, the lie that I'm believing, the thing that I did, that's no good.
Madison Moses:So. Yeah. That was that was so Yeah. Juanita, praying for you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
Madison Moses:I really hope that despite all of the friends who seem to be not talking to you, that the people who are sticking around, that they make themselves known and present, and
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Madison Moses:Yeah. Praying for you. That's such a tough season. Alright. Diana from Fontana, California.
Madison Moses:Oof. This one is rough. Yeah. I relate to this a little bit. My best friend and I got not recently.
Madison Moses:Best friend. Sorry.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Madison Moses:You know who
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you are.
Madison Moses:My best friend and I got into an argument, and although I wanted to talk about it and sort things out, her solution was to stop having a friendship with me after thirteen years of friendship. We're both Christian, and she has been a strong anchor of faith in my life, and I feel like I'm just grieving her. If she doesn't wanna talk things out, am I supposed to keep pursuing reconciliation? Or do I wait for God to soften her heart? Should I apologize for the sake of the relationship even if I'm not wrong?
Madison Moses:Again, was a lot of questions. Yeah. But goodness gracious. Okay. So she starts with that she friend doesn't wanna talk.
Madison Moses:The friendship seems to be over. They're both Christians. If the friend doesn't wanna talk it out, is she supposed to keep pursuing?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So, I mean, this is a tough situation. And again, a podcast is not a pastor. I I feel really you know, this isn't like a theological question where I can just give you my opinion. This involves another person that's not asking the question, and so I don't want to give you advice when I only have half Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Of the question. And so let me just say this, I feel like I'm grieving her, man. Man, the loss of any relationship causes that. I think that's it's not a good feeling, but that is a good thing. What it means is it was something that was very special to you, and so I would take time and thank God for that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And say, God, I want to thank you for this thirteen year relationship
Madison Moses:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That you used to bless me and care for me. And again, back to the last question. I had no idea as a pastor, Diana, how many breakups I was going to have to go through. I just didn't. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, I lost friends in high school once, a good friend, and that was really hard for me. I wish that somebody would have counseled me, Hey, if you're going to go into ministry, you've got to get used to breakups, because that's a part of it. And just know this, Diana, marriages don't make it. Marriages don't make it. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:50% of marriages don't make it. Relationships are hard, so give yourself grace in this issue. But you said she has been a strong anchor in my faith. Here's what I would do, I would write a letter and I would just say to this friend, you have been an anchor in my life. And I would write out all the amazing things that that person has done for you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I would honestly thank them for that. And then I would just say, I'm grieving the loss of the relationship. If there's something that I've done that I'm unaware of, please let me know. And here's the thing, Diana, you need to be in a position to receive that. Go back and listen to the Sermon on Discernment.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know when this will come out. I think the Sermon on Discernment is Matthew seven, what verse is it? Does anybody know?
Madison Moses:One through seven.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:One through seven. It's the judge not lest you be judged, and do not cast pearl before swine. Go back and listen to that message, and really, really pray through, okay, is there something in my past that's blocking my vision on this? Is there a motivation here that's blocking my vision? Is there sin here that's blocking my vision on the truth of this situation?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because, you know, let's take a relationship that's easy, my wife and I, and I don't mean easy, but it's easy to pick on because we're together all the time. So let's say she's offended by me, there's an argument, we go our separate ways. How do we reconcile? I have to pray through those three things because she might be seeing something that I'm blind to. But here's what you said.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Should I apologize for the sake of the relationship even if I'm not wrong? So I don't know where the message is, but we'll put it in the show notes. And I talked about learning to apologize. Remember that was a couple months ago when I'm not wrong? Because sometimes I'm not wrong.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I do, Diana, is I apologize for how I said it, and when I said it. Those are the two things. Because I can be right and still be rude in the way that I communicate, which I would say most of us, you're not no one in this room, no one listening to this podcast is Jesus. And even he got angry one time and flipped the table over in the house of worship. But he's God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:His anger is always righteous. We're not God. Our anger, James says, does not produce the righteousness of God. So it doesn't. So was I angry?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Was it the wrong time? Yeah. People confront me all the time and it's the wrong time. Yeah. They had the right message, it was the wrong time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So when should I do this? And so I would just say, you know, I'm really sorry for maybe how I approached this issue, how I did this issue. And here's the thing about lifelong friendships, Diana, they're going to work through these things. But lifelong friendships are like two, maybe three people. They're just really hard to find.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so this may have been a person that was a friend for a season, and I'm sorry that it's over, but I would send that letter, and I would just say, thank you for doing this, thank you for doing this. And here's the thing, is if the Holy Spirit is in that letter, you're going to be okay if they never respond. Yes. Because you did what God told you to do. And then you end with, I'm not sure what I did wrong, but you are worth, I care about you so much that I'm worth listening to where I might be wrong.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, you know, if you want to reconcile, you know, please let me know. Feel free to respond in a letter. We could sit down with a pastor. We could try to work this out. I would encourage you to try to work it out together first, and then involve a pastor, if both people want to.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If the friend doesn't want to, it's like married couples, they're like, how do I make my husband come in for counseling? I'm like, you don't. Yeah, you can't. Like, and let me just tell you, everyone listening, when you force somebody to come in for counseling, the counseling session is worthless. It doesn't help.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:People have to be willing to change and hear where they're wrong, or there's no hope. There just isn't hope. And so, Diana, I'm so sorry for this. I'll be praying for you, but I would send the card, I would send the letter. Make it brief, so don't send her a Bible, you know what I'm saying, of your relationship.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I would just say, here's two or three things that I'm really thankful for in your life. I'm so sorry that this friendship has come to an end. If there's something I can do to make this better, please let me know. But here's the thing, Diana, she might bring up something that you don't agree with. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So then you have to weigh. And I mean, I have to do this in my marriage. What's more important, my marriage or me feeling like I'm right? And it's a constant calculation that I'm working through because at the end of the day, what I want is to be married when I die. And that doesn't mean that I allow abuse or I allow sin or anything like that, but especially in the matter of opinions or interpretation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. You know, so I'm not going to let Tammy, you know, if she decided tomorrow, she's going do heroin. Not going be like, you know what, I'm going to let her process and No, boom. That is unacceptable. You know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But if it's an interpretation, let's say of a relative that we had that's using drugs and how she wants to address that, and we have a different interpretation, I'm going to give her grace and allow her to process that on her own time. She doesn't have to do it the way I think. And so sometimes we marry right and wrong with our opinion about how to handle what's right and wrong, and those are two separate issues. And that's why discernment is so important. So great question, Diana.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'll be praying for you your friendship. I can just tell you, breakups hurt, whether it's marriage, dating, or friendship, they hurt and they are not fun. It's the hardest aspect of my faith. I don't struggle with drugs, alcohol, porn, I struggle with broken relationships. That's where my faith really hits the road.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:How do I forgive this person? How do I live with this person? How do I honor this person when I don't think I'm in sin? Yeah. You know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, you know, we don't live in a culture anymore where the pastor said, I mean, that's just not the way that it is. And so I have to hold my head up high, do my job, and trust that God has a plan for my life. So I'll be praying for you.
Madison Moses:Yeah. That's great. I'm going to ask a follow-up question. Oh, Well, just the friendship topic. I feel like we talked, we heard a lot about things going wrong.
Madison Moses:If you could give advice to people when it comes to starting friendships, picking friendships, what were some things you feel like people should look for?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, integrity. I mean, it's the most important thing. You know, you want to be in a relationship with people who value their integrity. They're going to do the right thing, even if it hurts. Because that's what it takes to make relationships work, is I have to be willing with my friendships to hear that I've sinned, to hear, I have to value the relationship more than my own pride.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I have to value what God says over my own emotions. That's how relationships work. So it's really hard to hear from the Holy Spirit when you're led by your emotions. It just is. Amen.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And most people are led by their emotions, led by their feelings, led by their understandings. So I have to put those So integrity is, I'm going to put how I feel, what I think, and what I perceive. I'm going to push that down here, and I'm going to listen to what the Holy Spirit has to say. And if the Holy Spirit convicts me that I'm wrong, you know what I'm going to say? I'm wrong.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Because I value that. And I want to be, and what I mean by integrity is I'm not a hypocrite, where I just proclaim this good news, but I don't actually live it. And so relationships are the hardest place to live it So that's what I would look for, integrity. Let their yes be yes and their no be no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You can trust what they say. Because someone who values their integrity, when you say, Hey, you've hurt me, they're going to fix that. They're going to make that right. And when they value their integrity, when they challenge you, you're going to listen. Because you know, Oh, person's not just going to be led by their emotions, their opinions, their perceptions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This person's going to be led by truth, so I might be missing something. Yeah. You know, so yeah.
Madison Moses:Yeah, no, I thought that
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:was it's hard. And when you find a good friend, cherish them.
Madison Moses:Cherish.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And be a good friend. I cherish my friendships like I cherish my wife. I got one wife and few friends. Cherish them, it's a beautiful thing. I got lots of acquaintances, lots of colleagues, lots of people in my church, but finding true friends is really, really And in order to find friends, I had to become a better friend.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that was a whole thing I had to work through. So it was painful, but I did it.
Madison Moses:No. That's great. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for answering the questions. Thank you guys for submitting your questions.
Madison Moses:If you like the show, please let us know whether it's subscribing, liking, commenting, sharing it with a friend. Please, please let us know. If you have questions, you can submit those at sandalschurch.com/thedebrief, and we'll see you next time.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you'd like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
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