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The Moonshots Podcast goes behind the scenes of the world's greatest superstars, thinkers and entrepreneurs to discover the secrets to their success. We deconstruct their success from mindset to daily habits so that we can apply it to our lives. Join us as we 'learn out loud' from Elon Musk, Brene Brown to emerging talents like David Goggins.
[Music]
hello and welcome to the moonshots
podcast it's episode 169 i'm your
co-host mike parsons and as always i'm
joined by a man who never splits the
difference it's mr mark pearson freeland
good morning mark
hey good morning mike it is another
exciting episode number 116
that you and i are digging into with our
listeners and as a reminder we're in the
third episode of our most recent mindset
series aren't we
mate we are deep into the mindset
reconfiguration mode and i think we're
about to unleash some serious mindset
voodoo today mark yeah voodoo is
certainly one way of putting it today
listeners we are digging in number
169 into chris vosses never split the
difference negotiating as if your life
depended on it mike this is a book that
i i've been aware of prior to digging
into for the moonshot show as you know i
even utilized some of the tactics and
lessons for a project that we had i
think maybe a year and a half ago a
couple of years ago some really valuable
things it did it totally worked
and now i i think we do want to say one
thing though just quickly before all of
our moonshotters think what are we what
are we doing a show or negotiation for
that sounds a bit cheap and nasty
i think we gotta we've gotta say hey
before you press stop
give this a go try it out because
never split the difference maybe
about negotiation but i think it's about
much more than negotiation isn't it matt
yeah i totally agree i think where we've
seen already within our mindset series
starting with mark manson's the subtle
art of not giving him
or if you want to find out what that
whistle is just go and listen to the
show
we learned about the idea of values and
meaning didn't we
and last week's show with robert greene
the 48 laws of power it was about the
idea of ownership control and the
reality that you might have the world so
already we're starting to build these
these essential building blocks of
mindset with chris voss never split the
difference like you say yeah it is on
paper a book about negotiating and
understanding from a genuine fbi hostage
negotiator
new ways to approach maybe difficult
conversations i think where you and i
are seeing the value in chris vosses
never split the difference
is actually the the elemental values
that exist within
honing and cultivating a good skill in
communication
talking to one another in order to
understand the core principle or the
core vision of the other person in order
to both come out with a fair result
wouldn't you say
yeah and we have we have learned um
it's very important
um when you're trying to agree something
with a counterparty
that there is a true
fairness and equity in the agreement
because
if it is
unfair
then you know down the track the
counterparty who didn't get a fair deal
is not going to live up to the deal
anyway they're going to try and pull out
of the deal
so
if you push beyond
what might be considered negotiation
tactics and they're pretty good tactics
and he was an fbi hostage negotiator so
i mean we're getting good quality
tactics here i think beyond the idea of
negotiation what it really is is it's
about alignment and connection with the
people around you it's about agreeing
fair terms to work together to a mutual
outcome so we can have
success for each other for ourselves and
for the mission as a whole in fact what
chris vos makes the case for is life is
just one entire negotiation and today on
our show we're going to get right
into it and mark there's so many tactics
that we're going to go through on the
show so you'll be able to get better
agreements
better
negotiations with your peers your
colleagues perhaps even your better half
so mark where do we want to start this
adventure with chris boss well one of
the main ways that some of our listeners
could be
have awareness or knowledge of chris vos
is actually through one of the platforms
that he's on so obviously he's got his
book never split the difference that's
already out there but he also has what's
called a master class that's available
online
and most class for those listeners who
aren't aware it's a great online
platform with many many different
a huge catalog huge library of
well-known individuals breaking down
their skills into easy to digest uh and
bite-sized pieces of information
so there's a great platform called uh
masterclass we'll put a link into the
show notes in case you want to go and
check it out
chris voss has created a class all about
negotiation based on his book never
split the difference so what i thought
mike would be a quite nice introduction
to chris vos as well as his way of
thinking is actually to hear from the
trailer of masterclass so this is the
trailer for masterclass and chris voss's
class on negotiation everything in life
is a negotiation
when you cross the street is a
negotiation getting your coffee at
starbucks is a negotiation you're
probably in three to seven negotiations
every single day your life could be in a
completely different place just by
improving how you negotiate
negotiators are working around the clock
the deadline for execution has passed
with us now to help break down the
investigation fbi special agent hostage
negotiator christopher voss my role as a
hostage negotiator was to connect
authentically with the victim the
victim's family and with the hostage
taker everybody really deserves to have
somebody hear what they have to say
[Music]
in my master class i'm going to give you
all the strategies and tactics that i
developed as one of the top hostage
negotiators in the world you're going to
learn everything from bargaining to
reading body language to the
neuroscience that you can use to
literally bend people's reality you know
negotiation is letting the other side
have your way so mirroring creates the
opportunity for them actually to present
you with your deal only they thought it
was their idea it's just a simple
repetition of the last one to three
words of what somebody said we've got
the actual recording on the chase
manhattan bank robbery hostage taking
we've got a van out here know anything
about it you guys chase my driver away
we chased your driver away my training
was amir and the bank robber started
blurting out stuff they had no intention
of saying people love to be married they
love to be encouraged to go on
these skills help you improve your life
sometimes people say to me these tools
are just manipulation it's about win
lose that is not the case great
negotiation is about great collaboration
why does it matter to you you should get
better at negotiation because however
your life is now you can do better
i'm chris voss
and this is my master class
well that was a bit of a pump up i'm
mike parsons and this is moonshots
that's how we should introduce the show
from now on mike oh yeah like let's do a
re-edit
so so mark here what i'm hearing like a
key thing that jumped out to me right
there
great uh great collaboration big theme
of what he's talking about
and i love how he specifically goes
after this is not about
win lose this is about win-win this is
about great collaboration
i think you know looking at this a bit
differently he's giving us just the
means to
articulate ourselves and understand the
person that we are working with coming
out to a mutually beneficial agreement
and i think
all of the tactics that we're going to
break down in this show are just a means
of doing that so i think um if we sort
of get over
how we might have
presumed
negotiation and these sort of maybe
people think of them a bit as like sales
tactics you know
actually this is about very universal
themes of of the moonshots model it's
about empathy collaboration
uh understanding the people around you
and these are just
means to do so like let me make the
argument for you matt you don't turn up
to business just wearing a pair of
shorts no shoes and no top you put on
nice clothes that reflect the person you
want to be
so surely that's not seen as some sort
of cheap sales trick no you just want to
look good and look professional so why
wouldn't you in your conversation
techniques use professional techniques
that help you to understand the person
that you're talking with to collaborate
with them and to get a great outcome to
me it's just the same thing what do you
think matt well i think it's reflecting
the theme that we found within this
mosque within this mindset series mic
which is we are learning these let's
call them tactics or at least ways of
thinking
that
we don't spend enough time
really learning or digging into before
going out and giving it a go
so as you were just saying
you don't end up in a boardroom without
shorts without a shirt or sandals on you
know maybe that does close the deal i
don't know but you know what i do you
might do
because you go in a little bit more
prepared and where i think chris voss's
book never split the difference comes in
is it is preparing us to have better
conversations in order to reach that
fair or mutual outcome
where the perception from both sides is
positive and therefore there's no
animosity or frustration going forward i
would argue that
none of us really have the opportunity
to spend a lot of time
on improving our let's call it
communication strategy
prior to actually picking up a book or
picking up a master class and diving in
deep these aren't skills that are
necessarily taught to us early in our
careers or our lives
and i think that that's a missed
opportunity isn't it much like with mark
manson and the idea of understanding our
values that's not something that we
spend a lot of time on and i think the
same is true here whether you call it
negotiation or let's just call it
communication exactly it's it's not
something that we really spend time on
and i think that's where chris voss's
book really fits into the moonshots
library
i think yes i'm visualizing that library
right now it's gonna be get quite big
just by the way
i mean there's 170 books in there so far
so um
i think that sounds like a pretty good
library i think so
now that we've kind of set that bigger
frame i think we've got four different
techniques coming up in the show
whether it's tactical empathy value
proposition holding attention mirroring
we're going to explain how you can use
these to to understand to connect and to
collaborate with the people that are
around you in your professional or your
purpose uh personal life it's all in
front of you here on the moonshot show
but i tell you who else is getting in
the conversation and that's our members
mark i think we are just so grateful for
their continued support um it's becoming
quite a long list and that's a good
thing uh because if we have 50 000
listeners we've still got about another
49 900 to go
to become members
but matt look let's tip the hat let's uh
let's do the roll call for our patreon
members absolutely i'm starting to see
new faces every single week so
patreon members thank you for joining us
as part of the moonshots family and
please everybody give a stand up ovation
too bob niles john terry bridy and niall
marjolin ken dietmar tom byron mark and
marjan connor rodrigo jasmine and
spaceman daniela lisa sid maria paul
berg and kelman i mean mike when we get
closer to that 50 000
i think uh we're going to have to
dedicate an entire show just to read out
the members names
already we take out a good proportion of
each show calling our favorite
individuals so everybody thank you
here's your lunar power dose of thanks
and good karma thank you for helping us
keep the moonshot lights on yeah and
just to explain why we
really uh need your membership i mean
just just so you all understand we pay
24 us dollars a month for our
transcription software
so over the course of a year
it's over 250
just for our transcription software
and then we have all our podcast hosting
software which is not cheap either which
is actually more than this because we
have so many listeners and all of these
costs are what your membership goes to
support and help us to provide this show
to you
so if you're enjoying the show as you're
listening
just jump over to patreon become a
member it's literally it's one coffee
for a whole month of membership in the
moonshots uh podcast and
when you become a member of moonshots
you also get access
to the moonshots master series and we
just published one of those didn't we
mark we did we
in fact were you about to just publish
um a brand new show oh no it is live in
fact today uh on all about finding your
purpose i mean mike this
is the perfect
connection i think to the series that
we're currently looking into isn't it on
mindset finding your purpose we've got
lessons around ikeguy
um we've got clips from kyle maynard
elizabeth gilbert simon sinek i mean
that show was that master series was
pretty enormous
it was it was pretty enormous i would
agree and don't forget it's not just
finding your purpose we've done
communication circle of influence habits
90 minute master classes where we bring
together the world's best thinkers we
decode them you get lots of show notes
and frameworks and templates and all of
that is available to you if you become a
member so head over to moonshots.io
click on the big member button jump on
him be part of it join the conversation
we would love you to be there
so now mark
are you ready are you ready to explore
what tactical empathy looks like and
feels like are you ready i mean this is
the broad appeal of the book isn't it as
chris voss would break down this is one
of the core columns or dna essentials of
his book never split the difference so
mike without any further ado let's hear
from chris voss introduce us to what he
calls tactical empathy
right so what do you do
if you're armed with this tactical
empathy from hostage negotiation after
you leave the fbi and you're looking for
gainful employment how do you find a
real job
how you write a book
i wrote the book never split the
difference with tal roz and brandon voss
about applying the tactical empathy from
hostage negotiation to the bullies and
the liars that we encounter every day to
the bad the mad and the sad
we run into in our jobs
and our social interactions
at our family gatherings
at the breakfast table
i saw meme recently i thought it was
really funny it said you know this
parenting is really wearing me out i
think i'll try something less stressful
like being a hostage negotiator
tactical empathy weapons grade empathy
did you ever imagine hearing those two
words combined in the same sentence
it never split the difference
we define tactical empathy simply taking
an inventory of the perspective of the
person you're talking to to the address
of the adversary the counterpart
especially the parts that we don't like
and then tell them what it is describing
him back to him calmly
no denials
no disagreements
calmly
now tactical empathy
works because we all possess this
human nature wiring it works on a human
nature level we've got something in our
brains called the limbic system
everybody has that it's components of
the brain
it doesn't matter what your gender your
ethnicity or where you grew up
you have a limbic system in you
everyone has that that's the reason
every hostage negotiation team in the
world
from baghdad to bogota to boston
uses the same skills
because it's human nature wiring that we
all possess now that's its shortcoming
it only works with people
only works with people yeah empathy is
has just been such a big
part of our discovery doing the show
together right
yeah it is arguably one of the biggest
ideas or the
kind of beating heart so to speak of
chris's book and in fact i'll just read
our mic the way that he describes it is
it brings your attention to both the
emotional obstacles and the potential
pathways to getting an agreement done
and as chris was chris frost was calling
out in that clip we've just heard
that getting an agreement done can be
anywhere between a boardroom a hostage
negotiation or even the dinner table
with your family it is something it's
something that exists everywhere doesn't
it
yeah and and so
let's kind of see how we can process
this and put it into place
um you know some classic things that
come to my mind is
um you know if you want to deploy some
empathy in uh let's say a professional
discussion
um where there's some sort of
negotiation of terms happening
it's just to shut up and listen um i
think that's like a really good uh
um
starting point and then something else
that we've learned a lot in the
moonshots podcast is um really actively
listen so put your phone away really
focus on the person that's speaking and
really
try and understand the context where are
they coming from and you know i often
find that when people take an unusual
point of view in a discussion
you know someone explained it to me like
this i thought it was really good that
people are often fighting today a battle
they had yesterday
yeah i like that
yeah and i'm like well what do you mean
and what they mean is like
they are having a negotiation with you
today
based on some
mistake or pain or problem they had in
the past with someone else so it's
actually not about you it's not even
about today it was about somebody else
yesterday but it's manifesting
in the conversation today so
having those sorts of insights can
really help you go oh i see they've had
a really bad
experience doing a project like this
so that's why they're just completely
not open to it but it is actually a very
good
path for it for us right now but you
have to go deal with that concern before
you can actually agree to anything going
forward
so i think like this
listening this active listening looking
for the context of the person
i mean what a strong
point to remind us of
if we want a great outcome to a
negotiation
how about starting with listening rather
than hammering home your points
yeah abs absolutely because
how many times have we
ourselves been influenced by something
that's happened in the past like you say
a bad project can then create
associations
in your in your memory system and your
mind when you go into a brand new
relationship right so if you had a
really bad
bit of production work or whatever it
might be
and then you're going into a new
partnership your assumption could be
that you'll experience the same problems
and that's unfair on the new party isn't
it because they don't know yeah you
don't know the struggles that you might
have had because like you say the act of
listening allows the
new party to understand
or maybe try to uh try to understand
those frustrations or pains that the new
party has had you're right
i think it's um just a great reminder to
take
the time to listen to understand and you
know i think the more that you kind of
do
that act of listening understanding and
not trying to think about your points
but trying to think about where they are
coming from
i think the path in any negotiation or
agreement sort of starts to reveal
itself doesn't it once you kind of how i
get it now i can now i understand where
they're coming from don't you think that
you
the solution tends to make itself
obvious doesn't it
yeah i think to build on the on the
listening piece once you start to listen
and understand or hear
what that party is saying i think you
can almost try to replicate or put
yourself in their shoes
and understand or imagine that you are
that person
so you can start thinking okay i
understand why they're frustrated about
this situation what happens if i was in
that situation well i might take it out
on
them i might be a little bit guarded
about my true intentions because i want
to see if they figure it out on
themselves
and
well let's go
a bit further maybe they don't realize
they're fighting a previous battle and
you can help them say hey
i understand that's what happened in the
past but it doesn't have to happen this
time
exactly
exactly you can help them see if you
understand the the benefits of
labeling pain or frustrations to
listening active listening until you
call out
then you can help
that party transcend over that that
border or boundary that currently exists
in their minds can't you you can help
them by knowing the communication skills
that we're learning from chris voss it
never split the difference we we can
assist those other partners or other
relationships in order to push things
forward proactively
totally totally now another part of his
framework
and we're going to have links to all of
these so head over to moonshots.io if
you're really interested in any of this
just jump into the show notes we'll have
complete links listings you name it all
the good stuff plus a transcript of the
entire show
but this next one we're going to get
into is about your value proposition and
the role that plays in a conversation
and so this is a really interesting
technique
in really the early stages of a
conversation when you're trying to work
out how you can help each other so let's
listen now to mr chris voss
talking about how to and when to reveal
your value proposition before the book
came out
we'd be standing up in front of a group
and i'd say guys
why listen to a hostage negotiator
and what happens what do you think
happens why would you listen to a
hostage negotiator why would you because
your skills have to work
your skills have to work is what he said
here's what happens when the people that
haven't made up their mind yet
they tell you which part of your value
proposition appeals to them
i could say
you should listen to a hostage
negotiator because my skills have to
work
or i can look at you and say why would
you do this and you say the same thing
now when does it matter more
to you
when you say it
[Music]
and i begin to understand what aspect
now if if
he's a potential client i said why would
you ever listen to a hostage negotiator
and he says to me because your skills
have to work
now i use that to continually frame my
value proposition because i know that's
an element of my value proposition and
those are the words that speak to him
and if their mind is 80 made up ahead of
time you have to diagnose what aspects
of what you bring to the table matter to
them because more than likely every
single one of you have anywhere from 10
to 20 reasons why people should do
business with you
and if you start out on stuff that
doesn't matter to me how long before i
tune you out
five seconds is a pretty accurate guess
it's roughly three to ten seconds
some data says seven seconds
but you're gonna blow five seven ten
seconds on the wrong issue and i'm gonna
tune you out
i mean and there's no shortage i don't
know how many of you've been in pitch
presentations and half pitch
presentations or half have product
presentations people hate having a ceo
in a room because they're like damn
ceo's gonna interrupt start asking
questions before i get all the way
through my presentation
well actually what does that tell you
it tells you number one that he didn't
care about everything you set up to that
point in time and what he interrupted
john was what he really cared about
i think that is a great example or
situation
that chris has just said at the very end
of that mic which brings light to light
this this lesson or this technique is
isn't it
when you are in a
situation it could be a boardroom with a
ceo or in fact let's bring it back to
the dining room table and you're trying
to put across a point of view and your
kid or your child is is orientating or
continually bringing back to one thing
that's in their mind that's the thing
that that really matters to the other
party isn't it
and
i think i love the idea of
sitting down and giving
another party in the conversation the
opportunity to tell you what it is that
they really care about what is the
problem that they're trying to solve
because then as chris voss says
it points
you or me in this situation towards the
right solution that's within my arsenal
rather than me pitching to you mike my
greatest values instead if you tell me
the value that you're looking for and i
know that it's within my arsenal
suddenly
we can start coming together because the
value proposition fit really exists
there yeah i mean it could be like let's
say you're a restaurant owner and you
sit with some of your customers and say
hey what do you really appreciate uh
about the the restaurant you know you
come here regularly and you're thinking
as the chef i put so much effort into
sourcing the food from
locally local provenance and all this
sort of stuff and they might say oh we
just think this place is so charming the
atmosphere in here is so nice
and as the chef you'll be like
what but it's so good because you're
like i didn't think i thought it was you
know uh it was the the food but they
might say it's the ambiance the point
here is
having a conversation where you invite
your counterparty
to
actually
express to you the value that you create
invariably
will give you some new insight in how
they perceive what you do
and it's almost guaranteed isn't it mark
not to be exactly the same as you think
it is from your perspective
but yeah it's it's funny isn't it you
and i have used this technique somewhat
with um
clients and partners in the past you go
out and talk to the end user or the
other party in order to determine
whether your your theory or your
hypothesis is in fact correct
so talking to another party in this case
maybe we talk about a consumer like you
say maybe a restaurant
attendee
talking to them and understanding what
stands out and is relevant to them
reveals perhaps something surprising
that then saves you a lot of time effort
or money
because you're going after you're
chasing the wrong lead instead of
investing more money into the source
you're instead
considering how you continue ramping up
the ambience the atmosphere of that
restaurant and remember
just because you think your value
is going to the markets and sourcing the
food to use this example um
the way your customers at your
restaurant perceive it might be the
ambiance it might be the location who
knows the point is
like getting that feedback really helps
you because you're like oh my gosh they
love the ambience of the restaurant well
now i know what i need to focus on
and i've got this huge insight like do
we market the ambiance enough maybe
we're sitting on something that is like
an amazing ambulance and we just didn't
realize that that was what people
actually love i think
being self-aware and checking your
assumptions and not just being a victim
of wishful thinking
is really really important because we're
all humans we all see things slightly
differently and what chris voss in his
book never split the difference is
pointing out
is that having
the counterparty revealed to you what
your value proposition is
could be full of insights for you i mean
powerful stuff right
powerful stuff and as as chris goes on
to say if you
do start saying the wrong thing you're
going to be tuned out within a matter of
seconds oh yes oh yes so simply asking
the question
what matters to you why does it matter
to you and using active listening or
using a technique just to hear and
understand what that party's saying it's
gonna save you so much time
and mark i'll tell you what matters for
us as we are looking to get
the word out uh
to to really share this this idea of
learning out loud together here on the
moonshots podcast we love it what
matters to us is when you our listeners
get in there and give us a good review
because reviews
help us
be discovered by new listeners who want
to come and learn out loud together and
mark we got a cracking review this week
didn't we
this is definitely a legendary review
mike one that will sit in my mind as
one of our top uh sarah goes vegan from
germany thank you so much for leaving us
review in the last week uh just a a
quick call out to some of the stuff that
sarah left us mike i am hooked binge
listened to 20 episodes over the past
week and even though i've heard and read
a few things before it's amazing to have
the major key takeaways from absolutely
game-changing individual
innovators and leaders of our times
recapped and related to our everyday
lives i mean mike that really sums up
what we try and do on the moonshot show
isn't it it's like sorry sort of entered
our minds and worked out what we're
trying to do here at the moonshots
podcast and we're really thankful uh for
that review sarah because that really
helps us
be connected to be displayed in people's
search results and to populate
throughout the podcast
universe
and as we explore the universe of
negotiations and never splitting the
difference already we've seen that you
know life really is
a bit of a negotiation whether we're
crossing the road living our personal or
professional lives there is negotiations
to be had every single day
and it all starts with tactical empathy
and it gets really good when the other
counterparty can reveal to you your own
value proposition but mark we've got
some more to go don't we
yes this next tactic this next piece of
advice from chris vos in never split the
difference is a
very very proactive almost easy to
replicate mike i would say with a little
bit of practice
and again like say it can be used in
boardrooms it can be used when you're in
the shop with your loved ones and i
think it's a really really interesting
example of how tonality as well as just
perspective can be utilized in order to
understand and communicate a key point
and this is the idea of utilizing i
versus you versus it within
communication so let's hear from chris
voss really breaking this down for us
and explaining to us as well as our
listeners how to hold attention
there's a specific design with this
label
it's not an accident that it starts with
the word it it is the most neutral way
you can make an observation if you drop
in the word you or the i
in any point in time in here it creates
a different emotional response
i'll prove it to you when i was an fbi
agent i wanted to become a hostage
negotiator
when i finally qualified to get the
opportunity to go down to quantico i
wasn't really enthusiastic about going
to quantico
because i knew that i was going to be
there for two weeks i was going to be
there over a weekend and quantico is a
boring place to be over the weekend
ain't nowhere to go there ain't nothing
to do
and i wasn't that enthusiastic about it
but i got down there and i didn't know
but it was the only in-service efb i had
where there were hostage negotiators
from across the country and from all
over the world and i was immediately in
introduced and became a member of this
international negotiation community that
i didn't even know exist and then while
i was there i started hearing about
these guys and gals from the fbi that
flew all over the world and worked in
kidnappings and i kind of heard whispers
of these guys and rumors of these guys
and then i found out that these guys
were on a scent team and after you
became a negotiator i might get a chance
to be on the same team and by the time
the negotiation course was over i knew i
want to be on the sim team now let me
tell you the same story when you're an
fbi agent you become want to become a
hostage negotiator you find out that you
finally get lined up to go down to
quantico and you're not too enthusiastic
about going to quantico quantico is a
boring place there's not much for you to
do over the weekend but you get down
there and you find out that they're
negotiators from across the country and
from around the world
and suddenly you are a member of that
international negotiation community you
didn't even know existed
and then while you're there you start
hearing about these guys and gals that
are hostage negotiators with the fbi and
they fly all over the world working
kidnappings and you know you want to be
a member of the sim team
now the second story
felt different and i changed from an i
story to a used story and every time i
used i
it was a distraction it was a thought
interrupt that brought the attention
back to me which under the right context
is effective but this ain't it
but i tell the story again differently
you
and i bypassed that part of your brain
that i was hitting with i and i get into
your
limbic system a little more directly and
i start triggering thoughts and i start
triggering your thinking in a completely
different way by using you so you is an
engaging word that reaches out and
touches you ever so gently each and
every time i use it so with i it pulls a
different sort of distraction that's why
we very specifically begin to design
this from a very neutral point of view
because when i say it
i hit your brain in a different way and
i trigger a different kind of thought
pattern and you're immediately reacting
to the seam sounds feels followed by the
label if i hit you the intention is to
hit you in a different way i can say i
know you're angry
and you feel that i get it or i can say
what i'm hearing is you're angry
and right then you think you're an idiot
so completely different design and why
we do not teach people to say what i'm
hearing is
to feed it back and that is one of the
biggest most frequent thing
that a lot of people that have been
trained in therapy and psychology and
psychiatry
what i'm hearing is that this has been
bothering you for a very long time and
you were just turned off by that right
away because that statement is i'm a lot
more interested in how i see this than
how you're reacting so there's a very
intentional design there's a lot of word
choice here do not be fooled by the
simplicity of this it's designed to hit
your brain in very specific ways
this this for me mark this is really big
because
i think we
um
just use i you and it in our vocabulary
without actually focusing on or being
aware of this idea of how it uh triggers
the brain
um and that
that exercise he did it really worked
didn't it
it it so there's there's two bits that
stand out to me within this
uh let's call it a tactic or a lesson or
a clip from chris foss
it is the
idea of communicating via a slightly
different um almost third person i
versus you
and in turn that then builds into this
idea of communicating a story or a
different demonstration let's say to the
other person
in order to reflect or i think as chris
calls it label something that the other
person's feeling
so by understanding the
the difference the different tone that
comes with using you
instead of i
you can then
unlock the build
that comes with then repeating it back
to the other person in a manner that is
empathetic to you as the as the other
party it does feel like a huge
shift once you
understand it and again it's not
something that we're ever really taught
is it
no and and uh
i think subconsciously we sometimes feel
things are a bit off
when someone says i did this and then i
did that and then you're like okay i
guess you're pretty important in the
world then yeah but i i tell you another
time is when something has gone wrong
and then you did this
the the use of you did this
has had there's such implication in the
you
because that's almost the
proportioning of blame isn't it you did
this
yeah this is this is an interesting
build and as chris says
it obviously depends on the situation
you're right if
you're in a
conflict resolution state let's say a
communication where you are providing
feedback it is probably going to be more
efficient
if you say well i have done this because
then it does it creates that empathy
that understanding from the other party
doesn't it well you can go even further
than that
rather than saying like if you and i had
a problem
don't talk about it is
you know when you place it in
perspective don't say
you did that or i did that
this occurred it happened
that's what he's really going for
because it becomes totally neutral
and i think the build that we need to do
here is why is he pushing for this
because as soon as he was like oh i did
this and then i went here in quantico
and i it's like you kind of
lose attention because he's just talking
about himself you can't relate
in the same way if people are really
using you did this and you do that
you're like whoa whoa whoa hey this
ain't my fault i'm just doing what i was
told right that's exactly how you would
respond to it
so
by referring to it the situation
rather than you did this or i did this
keeps it objective and prevents emotions
blocking people's access to truth to
fact
right
so
what he's really doing is to keep things
on a
balanced perspective
to keep a neutral atmosphere in a
conversation to keep it objective and
just like let's get through the facts
and make a logical conclusion and agree
a way forward
if you refer to
let's say it was a problem it is a
problem
not what you did is the problem
the situation it rather than you or i
by keeping it neutral we are able to get
to a better outcome because otherwise
if i say hey mark you didn't turn up for
the for the podcast
you did this and you put in the wrong
link or whatever like
as soon as i do that you can feel the
attack and then you're going to start
defending right
actually we just want to get a good show
together so like
it was a problem that we didn't have the
right link
that's just objective
yeah if it feels more
if it feels like a result can come a lot
easier actually doesn't it yeah because
you remove the reliance or the blame on
the other person or or on either persons
as you say
if you remove the
um
the individual focus of i or you
and relate it more situationally
then it does it feels more
accomplishable that you can get past it
yes replace it and i would say matt that
it doesn't matter what you or i did
the what we're getting from chris here
is a really big tip
if you keep it in those situations as it
what you do is you enable
both parties to get to a
clear simple
practical negotiation
if you introduce the you
you're making it emotional and in those
those awkward situations it becomes a
blocker now what's really fascinating
about what he was saying though is
when you do want to use this
is when you want to really connect with
someone and say i understand you are
feeling frustrated
i understand you feel angry because
you're acknowledging
the negative
you are actually tipping the hat and
connecting with them because that's what
they are feeling
and then you can move on to wouldn't it
be good if we could get a solution to
the problem
it is a challenge i know i understand
you feel frustrated
now that's acknowledged let's move on
and let's talk about how we fix it
isn't it interesting when you start
breaking down these type of structures
and approaches
how much sense they make
but how
hard or maybe how much we've almost
disregarded in the past just from lack
of awareness
there's certainly been times
for me throughout my career or even to
family and friends where i've probably
used
tones perhaps accidentally that are
incendiary that are frustrating for the
other person to hear
that i just didn't really think about
because i had an
subconscious
uh blame
yeah frustration and frustration yeah
yeah and and it's like the impact of
those three really really small words
you that's three letters it that's two
and i that's one
yeah
depending on when we use them can really
affect the engagement now when chris
foss was saying i went to quantico you
really did kind of tune out
but just telling the same thing when you
go to corner code this is what you
experience
you're like oh okay i can see myself
doing that when he's saying aye you're
like oh that's just him doing it
yeah and when you want to keep it
objective it is a problem
we need a solution to it
rather than you did this or i did this
because in the end if you want the
solution
at a certain point you have to stop
worrying about who did what and whose
fault it is
because if you stay stuck in the fault
and the blame as you were just pointing
out it's very hard to get through
because people are too emotional aren't
they
yeah and then it impacts negatively uh
perhaps in the long run as well yeah
maybe you want to make them
uh
suffer f for what you perceive as their
mistake you want to you want to like
extract some some some payback
when that might block you from coming up
with like actually the best solution to
go forward well like you said earlier
today's uh issues are caused by
yesterday's problems right
right so again what i'm hearing and
learning from chris voss
in today's show and never split the
difference is again
like you say consistent to mark manson
as well as robert greene
which is
having an awareness an appreciation
let's say empathy
for
those other individuals around you
once you've got
an awareness or a consideration of those
people and know what really matters to
you
you can then utilize some of the lessons
within the powers of robert greene
to then go out and live quite a
productive or positive or effective life
it seems to me mike throughout this
master without this mindset series we
are starting to
create those building blocks of having a
really solid uh coordinated structure
towards mindsets aren't we we are and i
mean
we've deliberately gone after some
pretty interesting uh angles here i mean
we we wanted to go for
um
some of the things that are less spoken
about i mean i would have to say like
never giving up and resilience which are
the classic david goggins themes
universally everyone loves it uh what i
think we've done here is put together a
little package of
ways to think about the world
um
that are a little bit
unusual they force a reconsideration
manson has has really come back with uh
a very powerful look at values robert
greene is like we are here's the animal
spirits of the world in which we work
and here's the best way to make them
work for you chris ross is like
everything's a negotiation these are
like these fundamental things
that can affect how you perceive the
world around you and that's the most
powerful thing mindset
it's totally within your control there
are not many things in life that you
control but your thoughts and as a proxy
of that your mindset
is totally within your control and the
discipline to explore ideas like this is
what makes us stronger what makes us
better and gives us the very best chance
of being the best version of ourselves
and with that being said mark we still
have one more and this could be one more
tactic from chris voss in his book never
split the difference and this one could
be
the jedi mind trick what do you think
yeah this could be the biggest uh uh
piece of advice tactic or reveal that
christophos has in his book
and it might be something that some of
us have heard before i think it's a
fantastic little technique exercise it
can even be a little bit of fun to
really dive into understanding value
propositions the pains of another person
as well as understanding where the other
individuals coming from so without
further ado let's hear one more time in
today's show with chris voss about the
stealth power of mirroring mirroring and
how it's a jedi mind trick
the quickest easiest simple bailout
skill that will never fail you never
never never never never fail you
especially when you're thrown off when
you're off track when you've lost your
emotional bearing mirrors are there for
you they work with the least amount of
brain power that's why they won't
they're always there for you
so we're we're preparing for one of
these trainings in a very early day no
it wasn't one of these trainings but it
was our training in our very early days
yeah corporate training and we're
supposed to put together notebooks
actually we're supposed to put together
three ring binders but in my head those
terms are synonymous and he's putting
the stuff together and i asked him if
he's got the notebooks ready
and and he knows we're supposed to be
putting three ring binders and i'm
saying no books he doesn't know what's
what's in my head actually
you know are you thinking something like
this when i say notebooks
you know who knows but you know this
could be a this is not a three-ring
binder is it this is not a three-ring
binder
i don't know i don't know what's the
matter with him i don't know why i can't
read my mind but anyway so i say are the
notebooks ready and he goes what do you
mean by notebooks
so what do i say
yeah exactly goddamn no books right
you say it's much clearer then right
because the word notebook is so
self-explanatory that if you don't
understand exactly what i mean because i
choose my words so well then you're an
idiot
it's the same way i asked for directions
when i'm in paris what do you mean you
don't know where the eiffel tower
where's the eiffel tower
you know i only say it again louder
so he mirrors me
he goes notebooks
i go yeah three ring binders
you know that's why the mirrors are the
great bear you're out of the corner too
somebody's not on the right on the same
sheet of music it's either you or it's
them a quick mirror
always causes always always always
always always always causes people to
restate in another way
it's especially effective with
assertives
because we figure if you're unclear we
just need to talk more
i love this idea of mirroring and how
when you mirror back to people
it forces them to restate the idea
but in a different
way
totally unaware of this
but
that was kind of neat wasn't it
it's not a technique that i'd
encountered before or at least uh here
you go let me say it again it's not
something that i've consciously
encountered before
but it does make so much sense doesn't
it mike just
enabling you matt mark mark does that
make sense
i think it does make sense and let me
tell you why mike because
but but it does doesn't it because it
feels very
uh open it encourages the other party
the one doing the speaking to expand or
build upon
their points that they've changed did
you notice when i did it to you then you
you felt compelled to explain
exactly i felt compelled to explain i
felt compelled to build because you had
asked me quite an open question oh mark
where is this
what is it
so your natural instinct i think is to
continue
conversing and explaining it so the
other party uh knows exactly what it is
you're saying but i'd say that that's an
unconscious behavior isn't it
very unconscious which is kind of what
the big subtext to a lot of what
christophos talks about is these are
things that you do subconsciously why
not use them consciously
to get a great outcome for both parties
and you think you can get a good outcome
from both parties
mark i do think you can get a good job
and here's why
really really neat thinking isn't it
yeah it is and and it's it reminds me of
one of the biggest challenges that
exists within business but i would
assume also around the family dinner
table
not all being on the same hymn sheet
or as chris voss says on the same sheet
of music
when everybody's going in a slightly
different direction even if it's just
very very minor very subtle at this
point maybe somebody thinks the
meeting's on tuesday at 11 as opposed to
tuesday at 12. something quite small
then becomes a huge deal the closer and
closer you get to the deadline
and i think the same is true within a
family ecosystem as well
without all being on the same page you
breed insecurities anxieties
frustrations
eventually arguments maybe even worse
maybe you lose the business maybe you
fall out all these small little things
from not being aligned and i think i
would argue that sometimes in our lives
we
tread the path with of least resistance
don't we mike so rather than seek out
confirmation we're quite happy just to
say oh you know what i think i think
they've got it i think they know what i
mean oh my gosh um and what a mistake
because i mean you think about this um
i'll give you like a really kind of like
a social example think about all the
relationships
that you've had
all of all the friends you've had who've
been in relationships that haven't
worked out
when i look back at a lifetime of
friends and family that have been in
relationships that haven't worked
do you know when people talk about
couples they've been together for a
couple years and then they just kind of
fall apart right i think so much of that
is they're not recalibrating they're not
checking in with each other on
how you're doing where do you want to go
and so what happens is you know when
people say ah they just kind of drifted
apart i think that's because they don't
recalibrate they don't mirror they don't
double check in where are you going how
we're doing it why are we doing it all
of those important questions
and then you only need to be off by a
couple of degrees but over time you end
up a world apart don't you i totally
agree i totally agree it can feel really
small at the beginning but unless you do
those check-ins
unless you have that conversation even
though it might not feel like a big deal
if you just start cultivating a bit of a
habit or behavior to do that check-in
yeah you're right you'll then avoid
those those
feelings of uncertainty
and those feelings of potential
frustration
and therefore it'll lead to a much
better a period of collaboration
relationship whatever it might be i
think it is just again all comes down to
the power of good communication yeah
yeah what what a crazy
uh way in which these small things tend
to have such big impact that's another
theme of his book isn't it
yeah with this idea of never splitting
the difference it really truly
understanding the other person's point
of view or at least taking the time to
try and understand and try to have
empathy i think that's where uh one of
the biggest lessons from chris foster's
book comes through isn't it rather than
disregard the other person just pause
and and maybe work hard at understanding
where it is that they're coming from
yeah
and i think that um it's amazing that
you can do better if you take the time
to listen to others first isn't that
interesting so it's is it weirdly in
your own self-interest to be empathetic
yeah i think that's i think that's like
such a great twist
it's such a twist it's such stress and
again as consistent with the mindset
series so far probably something that a
lot of us
uh don't spend enough time really
digging into yeah so uh which of these
themes has grabbed you um which one has
has piqued your interest these little
tactics but with big effect
i i think the mirror mirroring
if i can say it correctly is the is the
stealth power isn't it i think that
because that carves out a behavior of
re-enforcing
the other person's point of view and it
gives you
with very very little effort very little
brain power you don't even have to think
up a clever question you just repeat
those last three words perhaps of what
somebody said it enables you to get onto
that same page and by not being on the
same page boy have i seen
a lot of wasted time
oh yeah
you wanted what
what i didn't know that what about you
mike what's what's the key uh lesson
that you're finding from chris voss's
book
listen i just think the use of iu and it
really that really got me is like these
small like three letters two letters one
letter um but like can change
the perception
the emotion of a discussion so
dramatically
um really great it's like when you put
it all together it's all these little
things like they're really a big deal
aren't they
they totally have that compound interest
small little things we can all do
pretty pretty actively pretty easily
uh it just takes that little bit of of
preparation
can can have such a huge impact
well there you have it well mark thank
you uh so much for joining me on this
little adventure shall we say that had a
big effect and thank you to you our
listeners our moonshotters all of you
who are working hard to be the best
version of yourself and the way we're
doing that is we're learning out loud
together and today in show 169 we did
that with chris voss and his book never
split the difference he started by
this first principle if you will that
life truly is one big negotiation and
the starting point is tactical empathy a
big moonshot thing
and if you can go out in these
discussions and invite
your counterparty to reveal the reason
why you create value then you really are
on the right track and make sure you
hold the right attention use these three
two or one character words to great
effect i you and it they have the power
to hold attention with your audience and
if you want to step it up for your jedi
mind trick it is mirroring to make sure
that you have that true connection that
true empathy and to push your
end user to push your conversational
partner to go in and to explain why
you guys can reach a great outcome and
great outcomes is what we're all about
here on the moonshots podcast that's a
wrap