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At My Altar with Dr. Trenda Lee is a podcast that explores the ways everyday people practice their spirituality. Join Trenda and her guests for honest conversations about their pathways to the divine and discover what that might look like for you. Someone else’s story might be your next spiritual practice.
Do you want to feel more connected to the divine, however you define that? Maybe your old practices don't fit anymore, or maybe you've always felt spiritual, but never built a practice around it. I'm Trenda Lee, and I'm talking with everyday people about their spiritual practices. I invite you to join me as we explore pathways to the divine At My Altar.
Welcome back to At My Altar, episode five. Ah, I'm just so thrilled to know you are resonating with my podcast, and finding what it has on offer for you, and it just makes me so happy. So I wanted to let you in on three things. First, I am really excited to share this specific episode with you, as it actually wasn't supposed to be published.
I asked Emily Borman to be one of my very first practice interviews as I was trying to get my feet under me with this whole podcast thing, especially the technology, and true to who she was, she did not hesitate to say yes. Recently, I went back and re-listened to her interview, and I was stunned by her wisdom all over again.
So the sound quality may be a little off because it was early days, but it's just too good to sit on a shelf or keep to myself. The second thing I want to let you in on, I met Emily because of a serious tragedy that happened in 2007 in my hometown of Minneapolis, the collapse of the Interstate 35W bridge.
This is a bridge that crosses over the Mississippi, and is a major artery in and out of downtown. My wife at the time worked with one of the men who perished in that collapse. He was married with two young children. Their workplace decided to do a golf tournament fundraiser to support his grieving family, so my wife at the time and one of her coworkers thought it would be fun to invite their spouses to create a foursome for the tournament.
Okay, that loops me in. I knew she wanted me to meet her coworker, but on the golf course? Ugh, I mean, my ex-wife was a solid golfer, but I was not, and this was going to be my first impression. So parenthetical side note, there have been many times in my adult life when I had to teach myself skills that some kids learn in childhood simply because I did not have access to those things as a kid.
So for example, even though I grew up in Minnesota, the land of 10,000 lakes, it required a boat to access those lakes, which required money that we didn't have. And while I played around in the shallow end of a beach on occasion, I actually taught myself to swim at 33. So accessing a golf course as a kid, not a chance.
To be fair, this golf tournament happened when I was in my early 40s. I was rising in my career, and the good old boys network was alive and well, especially on golf courses on Fridays in the summer. Like many times, I thought, "If you can't beat them, join them." So I bought myself some cheap clubs and started taking golf lessons for the sheer purpose of getting into meetings that were happening on the golf course on those Friday mornings so that I could climb the ladder.
It also meant I was very aware of how bad of a golfer I actually was. Back to this fundraiser golf tournament. I'm there, and it turns out the other two of my foursome were exceptional golfers. One was captain of her high school and college golf teams, and another had a mother who was a golf pro, and my ex grew up on her family's municipal golf course.
I mean, come on. I just had to lean into my vulnerability and make the best of it. And what ended up happening, we totally hit it off, no pun intended. Okay, after the tournament, everyone gathered for refreshments and a live auction to raise even more funds for the family. One of the auction items was a one-week golf trip for four to Hilton Head, South Carolina.
So yep, you guessed it, the four of us as brand-new friends looked at each other, a little unsure, but willing to place a bet on the trip and each other. So we went in on the live auction, and lo and behold, we won it. So off to Hilton Head we went, and that trip became the catalyst for one of the most important friendships of my life.
Emily Borman was the fourth person of our foursome, the wife of the coworker. The collapse of the 35W Bridge was 19 years ago, and wow, Minneapolis had no idea the tragedies ahead for her. Which leads me to the third thing I want to let you in on. Much of this first season of At My Altar was recorded during the ICE occupation of the Twin Cities.
As I mentioned, I live downtown Minneapolis, and it was a horrendous, painful, exhausting time. We collectively looked hate in the eye every single day. I witnessed, for the first time in my life, masses of white people at the front lines fighting for our Brown and Black neighbors so that they could stay home and be safe.
And we witnessed the greatest love among community members you could ever imagine. So woven all through the voices and the music and the words of this podcast is the love coming out of Minneapolis during this time. Those of us who have lived in Minnesota our whole lives completely understood the underlying culture that arose this past winter during the ICE occupation.
Back before cell phones, okay, yes, there was a time before cell phones , we had to keep emergency kits in the trunk of our cars because the winters were so brutal. If your car stalled or you slid into a ditch, there was no way to call for help. You could easily die in the cold. So we knew, never leave your car.
Just sit and wait with your hazard lights on until someone came to rescue you, and if you were the one driving by and saw that person on the side of the road, you would immediately pull over to help them. Because of the cold, you had to move swiftly. There was no time to exchange hellos or names or pleasantries.
You'd just jump out, start shoveling, and push them out of the ditch. As soon as the stuck car got their traction, they'd drive away, giving you a little honk to say thanks. In some ways, that's the culture that showed up in Minneapolis and St. Paul during the ICE occupation, right down to it being in the dead of winter.
We just pulled over to help our neighbors under attack, no questions asked. Most of the time, we didn't know their names. We didn't stick around long enough to find out who was next to us as we chased ICE away. We just went out and helped and came back in, told stories about what we'd witnessed, and waited for the literal next whistle to blow, telling us help was needed.
And this wasn't our first reckoning. The months leading up to the ICE occupation had already brought us to our knees, as a few months earlier in the summer of 2025 We were grieving a terrible shooting that killed one of our state legislators and her husband, and seriously wounded another legislator and his wife.
Two months after that, we endured a deadly shooting at Cristo Rey Jesuit High School, and then literally the next day, a deadly mass shooting of children on their first day of school at Annunciation Catholic Church. Then in December, while ICE agents were coming by the thousands, we honored those riding horseback through the depths of a Minnesota winter to commemorate the 37 Dakota men hanged in Mankato in 1862 by the US government, which is still the largest mass execution in American history.
That was 2025 for us, and underneath all of it, still raw and unresolved, was a deep racial wound, the murder of George Floyd, a time when Minneapolis became the epicenter of racist police violence in this country. Minneapolis carries a lot, and so do her people. I am her people. All of this lives deep within me.
I have been consciously wrestling with my own racial and spiritual awakening during these past years. In fact, the early ideas for this podcast were rising up in me during this time. It has taken me six years to finally be in a place to birth it. So this indeed is a special episode I want to give to you, one I was called to take off the shelf and share with you.
Think of it as a car pulling over for you in the midst of a dark, cold winter and offering you something simple but profound. And if you feel so inclined, give Emily a veritable thank you honk as you head along your spiritual way. This is Emily Borman.
Today, I'm joined by my dear friend, Emily Borman. Emily believes spirituality isn't somewhere we visit. It's something we practice by paying attention to what's right in front of us. My dear friend Emily, welcome to At My Altar. Thank you. So good to be with you, as always. Hmm. So you're on my podcast because you- Yeah
identify spiritual. Is there a word that you use for how you define, like, source or higher power or God or what have you, and is that even important to you? Yeah, there's a word, and I use the word just out of convenience and probably just legacy from how I was raised. So I use God. I think if I were to take that one level deeper, it's Mother Nature, but God resonates for me, but I find that mostly in nature.
That's awesome. I have found, too, that the word God over my lifetime has come in and out as a word that helps me focus on my spirituality and what that means for me. Sometimes it's exactly that all-encompassing word that works, and sometimes I'm like, "Mm, it's too much baggage around that word that I'm not feeling it."
Yeah. So that's really helpful, and I love that you associate that with Mother Nature, and it does resonate for me about how I know you. Yeah, and I think that the word is mostly not complicated for me, but I think to the point that you're making, God has meant different things for me at different moments, and I feel like I have a different relationship with a higher power at various points that, that all make sense, but have led me To exactly where I am right now.
Let's talk about what led you to where you are right now. Let's do it. So is there a story that you could share that helps me understand how you experience God, and maybe a time in your life where it has felt so present that you've just known, "I am living in my spirituality in this moment right now"? For sure.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think what I've found is spirituality is the everyday moment. I think in my youth it was tied to religion, honestly, and as I've grown up, I didn't know how to separate religion from spirituality, and it's honestly been in the last few years that I've finally been like, "Oh, that's what it is for me."
But yeah, when I think of spirituality, for me it's connection. So a couple years ago, I had this thought that I could not shake that I wanted to plant Christmas trees, and the place that I wanted to plant them was in this very specific part of this land that my family has in North Dakota. It was this really sweet Mother's Day morning.
My mom and dad drove an hour and a half to our family land, and then my brother, wife, son, and I jumped in a car and drove four hours. We all met out on this land and planted together, and that's when the magic happened. We were out there on that day just digging in the dirt. The sun was out. It was a crisp, cool spring Mother's Day morning, and it just felt immensely sacred, like I was connected to multiple generations.
I found myself even in those moments just, like, looking around at the land and being grateful that we could be in it together. So that's an example of it's just an ordinary day, but an immensely sacred moment for me. I have tingles all over- Mm ... which tells me there's something deeply spiritual in the telling of that story for you.
I feel super connected to you in that- Mm ... storytelling. The word sacred is so beautiful and meaningful. Have you found sacred spaces in your life since then? Oh, yeah. Where I've grown over the two to three years is I can feel connected to any moment. I actually walk around my day thinking a lot about spirituality.
I think a lot about feeling connected when I'm about to jump on a phone call at work, like feeling deeply connected to the human I'm about to have a conversation with, or I can even find it driving on the road, a sunny day trying to get into work, or I can find it when I'm walking the dogs and it's sprinkling outside.
It always seems to surround two themes for me, and it's when a heartbeat is involved, sometimes my own, but sometimes another person or another being, and when there's just an element of a thing involved, and that thing is usually tied to nature. But I've even gotten so far in my spiritual journey in the day-to-day that I- Can look at a road and be grateful for it, that I live in a place where we've got this infrastructure we do, the human hands that built it, how the earth provided that structure for us.
So I think for me, that's how I've grown in my spirituality, is any moment can be a spiritual one for me. I mean, that's kind of incredible, looking at a road and thinking- Yeah ... "Hmm, uh, there's a spiritual nature to this." And but it makes sense in that you open this by saying spirituality to you is connection.
And- That's right ... when you see that road, is it a mental process for you? Like, "Oh, I know the hands that made that road. I see that." Is it in the moment you're consumed, you get the tingles like I just got, and you're- Yeah, yeah ... feeling a spiritual nature, or is there more intention for you around that? I think it depends on the day.
Mostly now it's just the way my brain is starting to operate. It started actually with my son being born, so he's 11 now. Before then, I would say my life was very religion-based. In my existence, what I realized is I was just carrying too much stress in my life. Everything was stressful to me, you name it.
I guess you could probably say I was running anxious most days on most topics, and I got to the point where I thought, "I wanna live as long as humanly possible and as healthy as humanly possible for my son." So it started out me thinking outwardly about him, and then as I started doing my own journey around managing stress and being healthy, it took me into this class.
It was a life-changing class, just daily principles for how to live your best life. And one of the books that I read, the sentiment was, "Carrying stress is not a badge of honor." And it hit me, that is how I've been operating. Like, that is how I think I'm supposed to be, is full of stress all the time. But no thank you, it doesn't fit for me anymore.
So then that not wanting to carry stress led me to focusing more on where do I find peace, and that was where nature happened. It's always been part of my past, but it just became a revelation for me of, oh, here's where I spend my time and feel most connected. And then I just started thinking about the world through the lens of nature, as odd as this sounds.
I started thinking in two parallels of, what would it mean to be a cloud looking down at my life and looking down at our Earth, and what would it mean to be an ant doing the best that you can, looking up at human beings? And it's that worldview that has brought me peace of, sure, my problems are problems, but they're not problems.
Because if I'm looking at it from the bottom up, those little ants are doing the best they can to get food and survive as a colony, but what do I know about their life? Their problems are their everything, but they're nothing to me, and the same is true for my problems to the rest of the world. So it's just been this worldview that has got me to honoring that my stress is valid, but that it can't shape me anymore.
And when I started to drop that peace, that ease, well, now I think about... spirituality all the time, everywhere I go. Oh, hot damn. Yeah. It's kind of cool. It is cool. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. I've never- Yeah ... ever thought about that. I'm actually quite stunned at the opportunity you just offered me perspective, and what that means- Mm
collectively in our spiritual connection. Yeah. Thank you. That's great. That's amazing. You know, I got goosebumps again when you were talking. Mm. And it just reminded me of our connection. Like, we have experienced some really hard times in our lives together. We've both been on our knees at separate times and witnessed each other in those moments.
Yeah. We've also witnessed each other in joy and growth, and I'm feeling so grateful right now to have learned something new about you that I don't think it would have otherwise come up in conversation. So part of this podcast is around just sharing everyday people's experiences around spirituality, and helping us all understand how do we live in that bottom-up, top-down, we're all in this together, but we're all feeling deeply connected to our own version of source.
So thank you so much for sharing that. It's amazing. So one thing that I wanna ask you about is rituals. Do you have rituals in your life? Yeah, I think I do. I have fewer rituals now than I did, so you're actually making me think about why. But the rituals for me happen typically in the sunrise, sunset moments of the day.
I love waking up when it's dark, so I get to wake up with the day. It just feels really magical. It feels connected. And with that, a cup of coffee. I love a cup of coffee in the morning. I hand grind the beans. I've got a ritual around it. I love it. So there's probably something about the caffeine addiction in there, but there is the process that I use.
Mm. Mm-hmm. I love it so much. And then in the sunset too, if I can be walking the dogs or just experience the moment where the sun is saying goodbye to us for a few hours, those just feel like open and closures. I was actually gonna put a question back to you on it. Do you find for ritual that you're intentional to practice consistently through all the goods and the bad so that it's there for you in the bad, or do you find that you come in and out of your practice of ritual based on your season of life?
Right. To be honest, I think the reason why I even wanted to do this podcast is because I have always felt spiritual, but I haven't known- How to intentionally practice it in a way that I feel as close to my divinity as possible, and how do I- Mm-hmm ... practice my own internal divinity in my connection with everyone else.
I don't know what those practices are. I've done so much- Mm ... and they've changed over time. So I too have a hard time with ritual. It's kind of like my physical practice. If I run every day, and I just go out there, pretty soon I want to go out there and start running, and then it's the good times, the bad times.
Running is just part of my life. That is maybe- Sure ... a ritual for me, and it's a way for me- Yeah ... to connect to the divine. Good, bad times, medium times, doesn't matter what times. So I don't know the answer. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm searching for it. That's fair. That's where I'm at. So Emily, final question. I think many of us have experienced like tithing or- Mm
volunteering or ways in which we formally give back or give to our communities, others. Mm-hmm. And there are times in which we are in need and are receiving. Mm. So this kind of give and receive dynamic has often been associated- Yeah ... with spirituality. Is that true for you? Has that been part of your practices as a spiritual person?
Yes, absolutely. For me, giving back to community, incredibly important for me personally. I, what's been the interesting In the last, I would say 12 months actually has been how that shows up for me through relationships at work. It's how can I care for the people? The end of the day, that's what I'm thinking about in every connection that I have.
And that's been the evolution for me. I think where I have opportunity to grow is on receiving side. I tend for many reasons, that is probably another 30-minute conversation to be more independent, which has served me well in my life, but it has also created a wall that where I often maybe show up as though I don't need other people's support because I got it.
And I think that's been a barrier for me when I think about prioritizing connection with the world and especially humans. That is for sure my opportunity to grow because I would much rather be on the giving side where I don't have to overshare about myself. And that's absolutely a barrier. So I see it's my next venture.
I love it. I interviewed somebody who said vulnerability is like wind blowing in your face. That- Yes ... it's what we put all around it. It's not, vulnerability is not scary. It's a space that- Yeah ... is an opportunity for growth and human connection and connection to the divine, but it's what we put around it.
Like I feel shame, I feel embarrassed, I feel cold, I feel, you know, scared, whatever it is that stops us from that, what you call God connection. Yeah. So I love that what you're saying right now and the, the real challenge for us around not just giving, but receiving, and really receiving is the hard part.
Absolutely true for me. Mm-hmm. Well said. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, my friend. Thank you. With deep, deep deference for your spiritual practices- Mm ... and gratitude for sharing them. Thank you for being at my altar. Thank you. You've been a massive teacher, guide, and mentor in my spiritual journey, so thank you.
Mm. I love you, my friend. I love you too.
Oh my gosh, she's such good people. Looking at life as an ant in a cloud, who thinks of that? It's so profound, yet so simple. I am so grateful to call her my friend. My daughter, of course, knows her as well, so I cannot wait to hear what came up for her after the interview. Let's give Savana a call. Savana.
Mother. Aloha. Emily. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Is she not the best? I know. Honestly. I love Emily. I love Emily. For those who are listening, Emily, as you're aware from the episode, is one of my mom's closest friends. But I- you two didn't really become friends until I was well into college. So Emily's someone that I have gotten to know as an adult, which is really cool to experience.
She's such a solid human. Like, when I think of her, I think of just this steady, solid, unshakable woman. She's just salt of the earth solid. That's good. Mm-hmm. I aspire to be like that. Me too. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. I wanna talk about her note about the opening and closing of a day, and I have a funny story- Okay
to share. Let's hear it. So, okay, Emily talks about how she has this ritual of making her coffee every morning, and she likes to get up before the sun rises so she can rise with the day, and I think that's amazing. I also am a huge coffee lover, and I also grind my own beans every morning. I totally get it.
Like, caffeine addiction or not, Emily- So many people are with you on that. It's, God's gift to this earth is coffee Here's to coffee. So, so sorry, Mother, you don't drink coffee, 'cause you're really missing out. I know. So I, as an adult, have not loved getting up before the sun. I prefer to sleep until the sun wakes me up, and I was reflecting on this.
I was like, "When was the last time I got up because I wanted to get up with the sun?" And I couldn't really think of anything until I thought, "Aha, we had a ritual growing up, Mom," and that was when Sydney and I were young, like in elementary school, we'd get up for school, and you'd be getting ready for work, and we would watch VH1 music videos.
The year is, like, 2000, and MTV and VH1 were all the rage. Every week it seemed there was a hot new music video coming out, and that is how we would start our morning. I remember Madonna coming out with one of her new songs, and where she's walking on the treadmill. It's, like, kind of Western. I vividly remember at, like, 6:45 in the morning being the first to watch her debut premiere, her music video, and I was like, "Goddamn, what a ritual, man."
That is now forever imprinted- in my heart for the better. I love it so much. And, you know, I remember those days very well because you guys would jump on my bed, we'd turn on the only TV we had in the house, which was in my bedroom, and the sad part about that story for me was before it was VH1 Videos, it was Clifford the Big Red Dog.
Yeah. And that's what was happening every morning until you two got just old enough to start being interested in those videos, and I thought, "Oh my gosh, it's music, it's dance. That's part of who we are. Let's do it in the morning." And you two loved it. But it's also was a huge transition for me to watch you move from Clifford to VH1.
Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah. I also remember it wasn't just the music video, it was then we'd get in the car, we didn't take the bus that day, and we would listen to Prince. And obviously- Obviously ... and I remember you- As well ... and I re- I remember whenever he'd say, like, "Motherf-" or you'd like, quickly turn down the volume.
So I thank you, Emily, for sharing your morning ritual because it made me reflect and think about what our rituals have been. I just thought that was great. I loved it. Love it so much. Well, here's to Madonna, Prince, all the fabulous singers of the '80s. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. You raised me well- I agree ... I will say.
I agree. Even if I don't drink coffee. Oh my gosh. I love you so much. I love you too, Mom. Okay, take care, mon amour. Have a good rest of your day. Thanks. Okay. Bye. Bye.
Oh, wow, what an episode. Thank you for listening to At My Altar with Trenda Lee. Please follow, share, and rate my podcast so that more people can find it. So much gratitude to my dear friend, Emily Borman. It's springtime in Minnesota right now, so I'm gonna start running regularly outside again, and it's the perfect time for me to practice noticing those divine moments all around me.
There's so many practices Emily shared with us. May you find one that resonates, and use it in your own spiritual practice. You can go to my website to find all my episodes and download my free spiritual practice guide. At My Altar is hosted by me, Trenda Lee, with producers Cecilia Stanton Adams, Charlie Mitchell, and me, Trenda Lee.
Original music by Charlie Mitchell. And original website photos and logo design by Irena Teppanti at Teppanti Studios. A special thanks to my beautiful daughter, Savana. If you've always felt spiritual and want to find more pathways to the divine, join me for another episode of At My Altar with Trenda Lee.
Until then, I'll see you on the love grid.