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Join us, feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp, for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy thoughts as we make sense of the world around us. If you also want to create a more just and equitable world, please join us on the journey to Messy Liberation.
Taina Brown she/hers: Hi, how are you?
Becky Mollenkamp: Howdy! Well, I'm gonna be honest, I have started to have some dental pain today. I have a tooth that scares the shit out of me because I'm afraid it's gonna be bad news, and I need to go find out. You know when you need to find something out and you're pretty sure it's not gonna be the news you want, so you just delay the inevitable and don't even want to go? But I know the longer I wait, the worse it'll probably end up being. But I don't wanna go. I've never had a root canal, but they terrify me, and I'm so afraid that's what they're gonna tell me.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the worst. I've had a root canal. It was a long time ago. I mean, it's dental work. Dental work always sucks, but I don't remember it being as bad as I thought it was gonna be.
Becky Mollenkamp: This is a great distraction. And yeah, I don't want that. One way around it is to just avoid the problem.
Taina Brown she/hers: But then the problem gets worse. I just went to the dentist a few weeks ago for a regular cleaning. And for like a week or two afterward, my mouth was just hurting because they’re so rough.
Becky Mollenkamp: See, I could also convince myself... I do have TMJ, it could be TMJ. I’ve also been doing this new habit tracker thing, and for a solid month, I’ve been flossing every night. I know I’m supposed to floss every day, but I haven’t historically. Thank you, okay. When you say it, people look at you like they're perfect. But anyway, I have literally been flossing every day for like a month now.
Taina Brown she/hers: Hmm. Who the fuck flosses every day? They can stop being judgy bitches.
Becky Mollenkamp: So there's part of me that's like, maybe it’s just that. But both of those things leave the question: why is it just this one tooth? Anyway, point being, I’m in a little bit of pain, but our discussions are a great distraction for me because I always find them very entertaining.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Okay, all right. Well, today we're going to talk about problematic faves.
Becky Mollenkamp: This sounds like we could get ourselves into trouble.
Taina Brown she/hers: It does. Which is messy as fuck, which is why we’re here. I feel like right now everybody's problematic fave, at least here in the US, is Kamala. She has this riz, as the kids would say.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, right. I think that was a couple years ago, but maybe they still say it. My husband is a high school counselor. He comes home and tells me what all the kids are saying these days. He tries to keep me up to date, but he laughs because I’m so out of date with my references.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah. The last I remember is "riz" and "aura," but I don’t know how out of date that might be. Our 16-year-old cousin trolls us with language we don’t understand. But yeah, I feel like right now she’s most people’s problematic fave because of her charisma and youthful energy. Comparatively speaking.
Becky Mollenkamp: Comparatively speaking. It’s not hard when you're coming up on the heels of Joe Biden to appear youthful.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah, someone who’s basically 90. But yeah, that got me thinking—who are my problematic faves? And where do we draw the line?
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah. Before we do that, in case anyone's wondering or doesn’t understand the lens we’re coming through, let's talk about why Kamala is problematic. Then we can talk about others. Obviously, the first thing is Palestine.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp: That, to me, is one of the big glaring issues—she refuses to call it a genocide. She’s going to continue to supply Israel with arms and money, which is deeply problematic.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, even though the UN has declared it a war crime.
Becky Mollenkamp: Correct. And the Western world, our allies, have pretty much universally come to the conclusion—whether it was right away or over time—that this is real bad. And we’re kind of the lone wolf left saying, "No, we love you, Israel. What you're doing is totally in defense of your right to exist." Okay, we don’t have to continue too much down that path, but just to say...
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Where she stands on that is clearly a problem. I also find her going very centrist. I understand it’s in service of getting elected. I am not a person who likes to be a chameleon and do what I think will get me the most likes. If you look at my social media, you’ll see that. But also, that’s why I would never make a good politician. So I understand why she’s doing it, but I find that problematic. What are some of your reasons?
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. I think those two things have layers—my personal belief in a free Palestine and ending a genocide, and my belief in not being a centrist. But also, the majority of Americans want something different, and she's not playing nice with that. She’s digging in her heels. And her history and stance on the US-Mexico border are really right of center.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, she started talking about building the wall again. That is wild to me.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, Biden was talking about that too, right? So she’s furthering that agenda.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right. Because I think part of the reason she was a fave for a lot of folks was, one, she just wasn’t Biden. But I think the thought was she wasn’t Biden, so we were going to see this radical shift. And I think largely, I’m going to say it’s because a lot of people probably saw a woman of color and said, “Well, clearly she’s going to show up very differently.” Right? She holds all these marginalized identities, so she’s obviously going to show up differently and have different stances, right?
Taina Brown she/hers: Different policies. Yeah. She understands, she understands, but…
Becky Mollenkamp: I think this is just an opportunity to remind people that your identity does not mean that your politics are always in service of your identity. Look at white women. White women vote against their own interests all the time, and many people do. So, yeah, okay.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. On interests, yeah. There’s a saying in the Black community, “Not all skin folk are kinfolk.” And we are seeing that play out here. And so I think these policies that are very conservative, right, it’s just proving what a lot of leftists have been saying for a really long time: that there’s no real difference between a Democratic or a Republican candidate. For the most part, both parties are invested in what is going to secure the most amount of capital.
Becky Mollenkamp: As I say, ding, ding, ding, what will please corporate America? Because that’s who’s paying all of them, all of them. There’s no exception within the two major parties. You have some of those outliers, especially like Bernie Sanders, but he’s an independent. He votes with the Democrats, but he’s an independent. And he’s obviously a socialist Democrat, which is how I identify. So he’s the most, out of anyone in Congress, pretty much the only one that basically aligns with me. I would also say…
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Right, right, right. Right. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp: Elizabeth Warren is fairly close, even though she still identifies as a Democrat. But, I mean, on the whole, they’re all bought and sold by corporate interests. So there is no major difference except perhaps around some cultural touch points. And yeah, let’s be fair, I do think there is some degree of difference in some of the cultural touch points that are important. I do believe the Democrats…
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No. But the branding, the branding is what’s different. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp: …have more interest in protecting LGBTQ rights than Republicans do. Do I think they do enough? Hell no. Do I think they would still sell all of those folks out for money? Sure. But I do think that, on the whole, those two groups of people—the differences are a bit on some of those cultural touch points where I think one group is slightly left of center, and one group is slightly, or not so slightly, right of center. But on the whole, no, I don’t think they’re markedly different.
Taina Brown she/hers: Hmm. Hmm. Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then also, she just believes in a police state, right? Like, you know, if you watched the DNC—which I know was a while back, or it feels like it was a while back, even though it was only a couple of weeks ago—it feels like ages ago. But like, talking about having the most lethal force in the world, like, that’s... That’s not what people want. I saw people talking about it on social media and they’re like, “I don’t want the most lethal force. I want healthcare. I want to be able to afford to rent an apartment or buy a house or put my kids through school or pay for college.”
Becky Mollenkamp: I know. Right. That’s not what... Right. And it’s not what liberals want, but also you could still, even for those people who do want to have a big military force... Okay, fine. You could have used any other word: a smart, a strategic, a strong, a, yeah, right, like innovative. But I mean…
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Innovative, a united, a joyful force, right? Like, that was the whole theme of the DNC. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: There was no word that could have been worse than “lethal.” Like, literally, that’s the worst word she could have chosen. And there’s no way that wasn’t intentional. It was to appeal—again, so much of that was about appealing to the right and trying to bring these independents and centrists and people over. Okay, so fine. We don’t have to get all into politics because I know this was actually meant to be like, “Let’s talk about pop culture people,” but you brought up Kamala, and I just want to make sure people—because I think there are plenty of people who are liberal…
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: …or at least identify as liberal and see Kamala as this like, “Look at the progress we’re making.” It feels like Barack 2.0 in that Barack was, because he was a Black man, it was like, “Look at the progress we’re making,” when in fact he was incredibly centrist. He was—it was very much the same thing. And I understand it. How else do you get elected? I get that. Our system is so fucked up that you have to do that. I wish we lived in a different system, but…
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that’s the game.
Becky Mollenkamp: For people to fool themselves into believing that Barack or Kamala are representing some degree of major progress, I think largely based on skin color, is so deeply problematic. So, going to problematic faves…
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it is. It is. Yeah, which I mean—and I’m just gonna say a couple more things and then we’ll get into our own personal problematic faves. Everything is political. We’ll do another episode about that at some point. But so like, fuck, what was I going to say? My brain just like completely blanked out. Kamala, it’s Barack 2.0. Yeah. So like, I think this really…
Becky Mollenkamp: We can’t help ourselves when we get to politics. Kamala is Barack 2.0.
Taina Brown she/hers: …sheds light on the issue of labeling progress as looking a certain way, right? And it’s race-baiting. That’s what it is. It’s race-baiting. We are saying, just because she’s a woman, she’s progressive. Just because she’s Black, she’s progressive. Just because her parents were immigrants, she’s progressive. And that’s not always the case. We talk about this in another episode about identity politics and this idea that having enough people represented at all echelons of industry or the world or whatever is going to move the needle forward in progress. And that’s not always the case. I think with using that word “lethal,” you’re literally talking about killing people.
Becky Mollenkamp: Like, that’s what the word “lethal” means. It has no other meaning.
Taina Brown she/hers: Like, why would you say that? And also, why do we need the most lethal military in the first place? Because we're going to other places and fucking shit up.
Becky Mollenkamp: We already have it. So why do you need to talk about it? It already exists. It’s making it sound as if we don’t already. So problematic.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The amount of money that we spend on the military, like if you look at the US budget... It’s not more than it used to be, or I don’t know if it is anymore, but I remember at some point, the most money we spent on anything was the money we give to Israel every year. Is it different?
Becky Mollenkamp: It’s more than anything else, literally by a mile. No, we give more money to Israel than we give to a lot of places. But, I mean, on the whole, that's still a fairly small, quote-unquote, small amount compared to the overall budget. Yeah, it’s in the low billions, which sounds like a lot to most of us, but the government’s budget for defense, I think, is near a trillion. It’s like 800 billion or something. It’s insane. I can look it up while you talk.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, that’s what it was, okay. Because it's like three billion or something every year. Mm-hmm. Jesus. But there’s no money for healthcare, no money to address homelessness.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right. $852 billion we spend on defense every year. That’s the annual budget. And every year, both parties come together to agree to increase it. And yes, then they talk about how we don’t have money for healthcare.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. How many homeless veterans are sleeping on the streets, unable to get what they need?
Becky Mollenkamp: Right. Both parties claim to care about soldiers, the military. This is why we need to put money into defense, into protecting our nation. One, we could have half that budget and still have the most lethal military in the world. Two, if you actually cared about the military, you’d be funding the VA. The VA doesn’t get that kind of funding. No, we don’t care about them. You’d be, like you said, providing mental health services, housing for military vets.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No, no. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: We don’t do those things. It goes back to being bought and sold by corporate interests. It’s because of the massive corporate defense industry. That US military budget? It doesn’t go to the Department of Defense to directly pay for our soldiers. It goes to corporate contracts that outsource defense. We’ve outsourced our defense to private entities.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. And it goes to corporations that build the machines, the missiles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Security companies. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Terrifying. Oh my gosh, we’ve gone so off track here. Yeah, for sure. Terrifying. I mean, just look at Dick Cheney. If anybody remembers him—I’m old, so I do—he came out of that world too. Privatized defense, it's terrifying. OK, I want to talk about a problematic fave. If I can, I’d like to bring up the first one. Yes, because so much of what we just talked about, especially around Kamala and identity politics, feels like…
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Yes, let's move on. Yes, okay.
Becky Mollenkamp: …white women convincing themselves they are progressive, right? Because they’re supporting a woman or, in this case, supporting a Black woman or a Black and Asian woman. To me, it’s peak white feminism. So much of what I see going on right now is this peak white feminism. “No, I’m totally a liberal, I’m an ally, because look, I’m all for Kamala,” right?
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. “This is my Black friend. This is my Black friend.” Yes. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Kamala has become their Black friend, as evidence of something. When Kamala—it’s not saying she’s Candace Owens, but it’s not all that far off, right? From saying, “Well, look, I’m friends with Candace Owens, so I must not be racist. I’m voting for Kamala, so I must not be racist.” Come on. OK, my internet was slow there. Peak white feminism, which makes me think of my favorite example of a problematic fave, peak white feminism, which is Tay-Tay. Let’s talk about Taylor Swift.
Taina Brown she/hers: Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp: Taylor Swift is a billionaire, and there are no ethical billionaires. The reason I look at Taylor as problematic when we talk about this is because somehow, those same white liberal ladies who are using Kamala as their badge of pride for their liberalism are the same people who think that Taylor’s the exception to the billionaire problem. Right? “No, because she’s a woman who’s a billionaire. Don’t you see how that’s better? Or, because she’s an artist…”
Taina Brown she/hers: No.
Becky Mollenkamp: “She’s so good to her fans.” Yeah. I just want to say: you can’t be a billionaire and be ethical. It’s not possible. I’ve lost so many followers, had so many internet fights, because the Taylor Swift fans are wild. And I don’t know what that’s going to mean for this episode, but I’ll say it again: she’s not ethical. When people ask me how—“It’s her music, it’s different than like Jeff Bezos.” Yeah, it is different than a Jeff Bezos, but ultimately…
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: It’s the same problem. No one should have that much wealth. One person. So even if she gives it away, no one white woman should be the one deciding how all that wealth is distributed. That’s problematic. A lot of her money comes from merchandise. A big chunk of her money comes from merchandise. No one can find any evidence that that merchandise is being made ethically. In fact, there’s quite a bit of evidence that it’s not being made ethically.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Then, not to mention just where she performs, how she performs, and the people who work for her. Yeah, she gave those truck drivers bonuses. That’s beautiful, cool. But what about all the people working on the levels down who are barely making minimum wage while she makes billions? No, they don’t have the same amount of contribution to her success as her creativity, obviously. But she wouldn’t be able to tour and make the money she makes without them.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Without that labor, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: And this hierarchy that somehow they don’t matter, even though they’re the ones making sure people can buy that merchandise, have their drinks, get into the stadium, provide the security for the stadium, help people find their seats, all of those things. People also say to me, “Yeah, but she doesn’t pay them. That’s the stadiums that do that, so that’s on them.” Yeah, but no one has the power to change that…
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp: …like Taylor Swift and Beyoncé. They could make different choices. They could say, “No, I won’t do something unless you do X, Y, Z,” and they aren’t doing it. So, there’s a whole host of reasons. And the last one: artists, the way that people get paid through Spotify, Amazon, all those places where you get plays, there’s a big giant pool of money and it gets doled out, not based on, “Hey, you had 0.0001% of plays, so you get 0.0001% of…”
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: …No, the money gets divvied up to the top people by a large portion, right? So like 50% of it goes to the top two people. And then all the other people are fighting for scraps. There are people who make nothing, who get plays. I learned about this from Sean Adams…
Taina Brown she/hers: Hmm. Wow.
Becky Mollenkamp: …from SoundCloud, who’s going to be a guest on Feminist Founders this season, so listen to that, because he talked a lot about how that works. The way she participates in those systems is problematic. She has the power to create change if she wanted to, but she is taking from people who are trying to make a living through their art by taking more than her fair share and more than she should ever need for her music.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t consider Taylor Swift and Beyoncé my favorites. I definitely enjoy their music, and I enjoy… they’re entertainers, right?
Becky Mollenkamp: That’s my problematic fave and my rant about her. They’re other people’s favorites, but Taylor wasn’t one of my favorites. I just thought we were talking about faves of other people, because Kamala’s not our fave either, but you were mentioning her. OK, next time I’ll think of somebody I actually like who I think is a bit problematic. So go ahead.
Taina Brown she/hers: Okay. No, no, no. Okay. But also, I remember seeing something on social media about the way that billionaires travel in their private jets, right? And how that creates a lot of environmental hazards. That has a really big impact on climate. And it's like, you could choose—there are so many points where you could choose to do things differently, and you just don’t. You just go with the status quo. And I get it, there are other things they might do behind the scenes that maybe we're not aware of. I know Beyoncé has a fund to help with women-owned startups, businesses, and nonprofits, and things like that. And that's great. I'm not saying that none of that matters. But I think once you reach the level of privilege that people like them have, the bigger your privilege, the more you should be doing, I think. Because I feel like the more privilege you have, the more insulated you are from what is really happening out in the streets, right? Like, out in the real world. So, you have to work harder to make sure that you are not losing touch with the reality that most people live in.
And I want to... before we end this conversation, I also want to deconstruct what it means when we say there are no ethical billionaires. Because I think some people get tripped up about that, right? And I also want to make the distinction that there’s a difference between being a millionaire and a billionaire. There’s a huge difference. Huge. Yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp: There’s a million, million differences. A billion is a million millions. People can’t conceptualize what a billion dollars is. But if you don’t understand it, go search—there are some amazing things online that help you understand just how much a billion is. Because we can’t—you couldn’t spend a billion dollars in your lifetime. It’s wild how much money that is.
Taina Brown she/hers: Fathom. Yeah. You couldn’t.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, because there are some amazing resources I’ve seen, showing like stacking the money to the moon and back, and like around the world. It’s just wild because it’s a million millions. It would be like a million people on Earth who could have a million dollars each. That’s a lot of money.
Taina Brown she/hers: Hmm. Okay, so who's your problematic fave that you wanted to mention?
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, can I use a dead person? Because... okay. Well, here’s one that comes to mind only because my son has really gotten into Michael Jackson, and it’s cute. It is cute. He’s bought all the little hats that have the little rim around them. He’s got a white one with a little black stripe, and like... he loves it. He knows all the words. He loves his music, and it’s cute.
Taina Brown she/hers: Living or dead, who’s your problematic fave?
Becky Mollenkamp: Jackson was problematic. He had some issues, right? Like, we have to be honest about the fact that it’s pretty clear he had more than likely some inappropriate relationships, also because of, I think, a lot of abuse and things that happened to him. But that doesn’t excuse the things that have come out about how he probably had inappropriate relationships with children. My son’s eight, and he loves him. He loves his music and his art.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: I struggle with how much to engage with it. And similarly, now someone who's alive who I have recently said, “Fuck her,” is JK Rowling. My son has discovered Harry Potter. We bought the books secondhand, and we’ve gotten them from the library. I refuse to give her money. We’ve watched the movies, but only on streaming services we already pay for. I’m sure she’s still getting some cut of that, which pisses me off.
Taina Brown she/hers: She’s back in the news, by the way.
Becky Mollenkamp: And my son knows about her. We’ve talked about her. I haven’t talked so much about Michael Jackson because he’s dead, and I feel like that’s a bit easier to move past. But my kid wants to be Harry Potter characters for Halloween. And I’m like, these are the weird things where I’m like, I don’t want to support her—I can’t stand her. I think she’s a horrible human. And her art, although we could also get into the issues around whether her ideas were stolen, the art we are consuming from her is stuff that my son loves.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: He gets something from it. I’m also trying to find him some alternatives. I’m introducing him to The Hunger Games, maybe a little earlier than I should. He has other things he loves, but I can’t take away the fact that he loves Harry Potter. I can’t take away the fact that he loves Michael Jackson. And we all live in a real world where there are problematic people. That does raise the question of, how do you separate the art from the artist? Should you? Do you? And I struggle with it.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Has he discovered Prince yet?
Becky Mollenkamp: Yes, we listen to Prince too, and he does like Prince. He does like Prince. But not as much as Michael Jackson. I think it's probably age. I feel like Prince is slightly more elevated. I feel like I was a little older when I started to really appreciate Prince. I remember Michael Jackson when I was in... I’m older. But when Thriller came out, I was in third grade. I was the exact same age as my kid. And I freaking loved it. And of course, my kid loves it. The MJ one bothers me a lot less than the JK one, though.
Taina Brown she/hers: Okay, okay. Yeah, but not as much as MJ. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay, so our little family—my wife and our two dogs—we try to do a Christmas card every year. We didn’t do one last year because it was a fucking hectic year, but we did a Harry Potter-themed one one year where we dressed up as different houses. I was Slytherin, and my wife was Hufflepuff. And then our two dogs were Ravenclaw and Gryffindor. And so that was fun. I think it’s a little bit of a personal decision, but also a community decision, where you draw the line between where the art and the artist separate and where they can no longer be divorced from each other, right? So, like for instance, with R. Kelly: absolutely not. Absolutely not. And with the whole Harry Potter thing, that’s a tough one. That’s a tough one. I only read one of the books; I just couldn’t get into it. I think I was in my 30s when I decided to read them, so yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Mmm. Me too. I was way too old, so I was never into it as a kid. But I know so many people who have that strong tie to it. His friends introduced it to him. I always feel this need to say, “I didn’t introduce it to him.” We don’t support her financially as much as we can. I can’t stand her. And then also, the art is something my kid appreciates. In the same way that, like, I don’t know… although I will say, I was going to mention Kevin Spacey. Horrible. But man, some of his movies are amazing.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Usual Suspects. My husband loves American Beauty. There are great movies he’s made. I don’t know… now when I see him pop up somewhere, I definitely feel differently. I can still appreciate the art he’s created. There are so many people like him. He’s just one example. Pablo Picasso is another example, where the art has withstood time. But I don’t know, it’s such a challenge when someone’s problematic, yet what they create, what they put out in the world, you’re like…
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s such a part of the lexicon of everyday life, right? By the way, Kevin Spacey lives here in Baltimore. Well, I don’t know if he actively lives here, but he has a home that he’s refusing to give up, even though… yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: I do like that. He’s broke. I know he’s been talking about how he’s broke, basically begging for money. It’s sad in some ways, and also, you know, this is what happens. Who’s your—sorry, go ahead.
Taina Brown she/hers: What was I going to ask you? So, with your son, do you talk to him about the problematic stuff with these people?
Becky Mollenkamp: Not MJ, because he’s dead and isn’t creating anything new. For some reason, that space of time feels more like we’re just… it feels easier to say, “I’m just appreciating the art.” He’s gone; he’s not making money off of it anymore. It’s kind of like Picasso or anyone who’s been dead a lot longer, where we now know how problematic they were, but their art…
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: ...their contributions to culture, we still look at that and we can view it sort of independently of the person in a way. I think that’s a gift that time gives us. Michael Jackson has been easier for me to handle with my kid. Some of those subjects also feel heavy to talk about with him, like the inappropriate stuff. With JK, though, we talk about it. I’m very clear because she’s still creating new things, and he still has some interest in the new stuff she’s making.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: We talk about why I find her problematic and how she has hate in her heart. We’ve also talked about trans issues, and when we have him on, we can talk to him about it. I’d be interested to hear how he’s wrestling with it. I don’t know if I’ve asked him explicitly, “How do you feel about reading her books, knowing she’s horrible?” It would be interesting to hear from him.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Yeah, how does that feel? Yeah, yeah, that would be interesting. I think that’s… not to say it’s the least we could do, but I feel like it’s one way to open that conversation.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, because the least I could do is nothing, right? Pretend nothing’s happened. I feel like it’s the messy tightrope we have to walk. Like, I could say to my kid, “No, you can’t have anything to do with Harry Potter.” I could do that. But what does that really accomplish, ultimately? I feel like having him interact with the art...
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: ...while talking about the artist and those problems opens an opportunity for us to have those discussions, for him to think critically, and for him to make some of those decisions himself. Also, my kid’s reading. That’s huge, right? I don’t want to underestimate the value of that. So yeah, I don’t know. There isn’t a right answer. It’s messy. On one hand, I could impose my beliefs on him and forbid him from anything, but that reminds me of religion.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: If my kid wanted to go to church, I would take him. I probably wouldn’t go, but when I wanted to go to church, my mom said, “OK, I’ll take you,” and dropped me off at church because she was like, “I’m not going.” But she let me decide for myself. I would do the same thing for him. In some ways, that’s how I’m handling this. But I could be messing it up. I would never want my trans friends to think that the way I’m handling this is dishonoring their reality because I do, I mean, I can’t experience it, but I understand how painful everything about Joanne—we’ll call her—is for them. Life is really complicated. Just saying, “We have a no Harry Potter rule,” I don’t know that accomplishes the goal.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Whereas having that more nuanced discussion while interacting with the material... it feels like I’m helping him develop the critical thinking skills I hope he’ll have. Instead of saying, “No, we just don’t do that in our home,” which usually results in the kid being like, “Well, now I’m more interested.”
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Now I’m going to do it. I think also, there are two extremes, right? One extreme is ignoring how problematic the person is, and being like, “Whatever, it’s just whatever,” which is a kind of self-delusion. Then there’s the other extreme of completely cutting yourself off from this part of the social world, which I think is also a kind of self-delusion. Because like you said, we live messy, complicated lives. Part of learning to live in the world, part of moving toward liberation, is figuring out for ourselves where our own boundaries are.
Becky Mollenkamp: It’s also delusional to pretend it doesn’t exist.
Taina Brown she/hers: …but also figuring out how to navigate these conversations, how to navigate the messiness. Unless you decide you’re going completely off the grid to live in the woods where no one will ever find you, you can’t cut yourself off from the complications of the world we live in. That doesn’t mean you have to engage with everything that’s problematic, but if you’re particularly drawn to something or someone, then that’s an opportunity to interrogate why. What is it about this thing or person that I’m drawn to? That can reveal something about yourself. Maybe you’ll find you like fantasy because of certain reasons, and then seek out fantasy works by Black women or people of color. But if you never do that work, then you’re cutting yourself off from parts of yourself as well. And I don’t think that’s healthy.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, it makes me think of another problematic fave, maybe. I’ve been dipping my toes in the romance waters, which I’ve never done before. I don’t like the super graphic stuff. Great for anyone who does, no slut-shaming, but it makes me uncomfortable. I like rom-com-type romance books where it’s light on the intimacy parts but more about the romance itself.
Becky Mollenkamp: The wooing and the will-they-won’t-they kind of thing, right? So, I’ve read a couple of Emily Henry’s books because everyone recommended them to me. She’s a white lady, and she writes about white people. And I don’t know if she’s problematic, right? There’s a whole spectrum of problematic, to be clear. There’s the Kevin Spacey, R. Kelly levels, and then there’s the barely problematic. I’m sure Emily’s fine—I don’t know her, she could be wonderful, but…
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a spectrum.
Becky Mollenkamp: The books themselves live in a universe that feels very white. And to me, that is a bit problematic—or a lot problematic. I could just keep reading them because I’ve enjoyed the couple I’ve read. And, as a white person, sometimes it feels familiar, and I don’t know that there’s anything inherently wrong with that. But if I ignore that problem…
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp: …I could just go down this rabbit hole of only reading about white women’s experiences, and then what does that do? That’s why I’ve been intentionally looking for romance written by women of color. So, I read Seven Days in June by Tia Williams and really enjoyed it. And I just read another book called Honey Butter Pig Bread—I can’t remember the order of the words. It was also sort of a romance, but much more literary, and it was really good. Anyway, my point is, I agree with you about recognizing these things and then saying, “How do I balance this out or change my behavior entirely?” In the case of Emily Henry, I don’t think it’s like, “I’ll never read romance that only has white characters.” But like you said, it’s…
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp: …about recognizing that this is a thing that’s happening and then figuring out how to balance it out so that I have a more real experience of humanity. So, who are your problematic faves? I don’t feel like you’ve shared any.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I haven’t. I haven’t. I’ve been thinking, like, “Oh my God, who are my problematic faves?” There are so many. No, there really are a lot, but now I feel like I’m on the spot and I can’t think of any. But I did think of one. I have the biggest crush on Charlize Theron.
Becky Mollenkamp: She’s gorgeous.
Taina Brown she/hers: She’s exquisite. But she’s South African, right?
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, she’s stunning.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, she’s adopted Black babies. And I don’t think she’s like… well, I haven’t done enough digging because I’m afraid of what I’ll find, but…
Becky Mollenkamp: I know, I totally understand that feeling.
Taina Brown she/hers: But there aren’t good signs, right? I don’t think being South African is inherently problematic, but the potential is very, very great. Especially being a white South African. And yeah, yeah, yeah. But one of my besties is from Zimbabwe.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, to be clear, I meant white South African, yes. Because we think of two people: Elon Musk and Charlize Theron.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, and one of my besties is Black and from Zimbabwe.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, we have neighbors on our street who are white Zimbabwean. They’re a wonderful lesbian couple with a little boy—so cute. One woman is American, and the other is from Zimbabwe, but they’re both white. They had a white baby, to be clear.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp: Point being, there are also white Zimbabweans, so…
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, and my besties, who are Black, were asking me and my wife, “Who’s on your hall pass list?” When I mentioned Charlize Theron, there was just a collective groan.
Becky Mollenkamp: Would that have been the same if it were any white woman, or was it specifically about her?
Taina Brown she/hers: It was specifically about her. That makes me think they know something I don’t about her. But also, as a Black woman, anytime I see white people adopting Black babies, that’s just sus to me. It’s very suspect. I think adoption, in general, is very complicated, and the whole industry is suspect, but…
Becky Mollenkamp: It is. Deeply.
Taina Brown she/hers: I understand there’s a need for it, but white people with Black children just gives me a really big ick.
Becky Mollenkamp: It should. I’ll speak honestly—as white women, it’s hard to admit to our past white liberal ways. It’s uncomfortable once you’ve done the work to unlearn and realize how you participated in white supremacy. But there was a time, 20 or 30 years ago, when I had dreams of adopting Black children or biracial children because I had that ridiculous idea that if everyone were biracial, we wouldn’t have race problems. I really bought into that bullshit that white liberals talk about. And now, I think about the harm I would’ve put on Black children if I’d adopted them when I was that version of myself. I was not equipped to parent Black children. I mean, I’m still not, but I do think now, if my Black best friend died and left me her kids, I could be a better parent to them. I’ve learned a lot, like how to help with their hair and take them to the right barber.
Taina Brown she/hers: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp: But it still wouldn’t be the best option. And who I was then? Fuck no. I don’t know enough about Charlize, or where she’s at on that spectrum of learning and unlearning. If she’s where I was 20 or 30 years ago, then it is a problem. I wonder the same thing about Angelina Jolie, Sandra Bullock... we can list them all.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, Angelina Jolie, Madonna, Sandra Bullock... every time I think about her, I just think about those J'adore commercials. Yeah, yeah. It’s not...
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, if it’s a fantasy world anyway, because you’re never going to run into Charlize, it’s probably not going to happen. That’s what I think about hall passes. Can’t we just pretend it’s a version of her that doesn’t actually exist? Like, a version that doesn’t have adopted Black children and isn’t even from South Africa. Maybe the accent’s nice, but let’s just imagine that version of her.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know if my bestie will ever forgive me for putting her on my hall pass list, but…
Becky Mollenkamp: Who was on your approved hall pass list? Were there any names that didn’t get an “ugh”?
Taina Brown she/hers: Gosh, I don’t even remember. I feel like my list changes every so often. Robert Downey Jr. is definitely on there.
Becky Mollenkamp: Me too. Maybe we should do a whole episode on our hall passes. Really? Is it Robert Downey Jr. of today or some past version of him? Looks, personality, even coked out—what’s the appeal?
Taina Brown she/hers: Any version of Robert Downey Jr. Even coked-out Robert Downey Jr. It’s a combination of both.
Becky Mollenkamp: It’s so fascinating to learn other people’s hall passes because you start to go, “Really? That’s someone you find interesting?” Because, for example, you don’t find… hold on a second, why is my brain blanking out? Thank you. All I could think of was Pablo Escobar, but no, Pedro Pascal, and he’s definitely on my hall pass list. And you’re like, “Yeah, gross, don’t get it.” And I just…
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah. Pedro Pascal. Mmm. No, no, I don’t get it at all. For me, I consider that one of your problematic faves because I just don’t see it. It’s not that he’s problematic, I just don’t see it. It’s a problem for me.
Becky Mollenkamp: I can’t imagine a world where people don’t get it. He’s so not problematic, though. See, that’s the thing. What appeals to me about him is how not problematic he is. I also think he’s pretty, but when it comes to men—so, we’re both pansexual, we both like everyone—when it comes to men I’m attracted to, it’s almost always very not traditionally masculine.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp: Toxic masculinity? No thanks. I like soft men, sweet men, ally-type men. That’s typically the kind of man on my list. One notable exception is Idris Elba because he’s just beautiful. But most of the men on my list are like Paul Rudd and Pedro Pascal—softies. When it comes to women, I like women who are more masculine.
Taina Brown she/hers: Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Which is interesting. Like Katherine Moennig—did I say her name right? She played Shane on The L Word. She was definitely a major attraction for me for a long time. So, it’s interesting. It sounds like you like your men more masculine and your women more feminine?
Taina Brown she/hers: A little bit, a little bit, but I also really like nerdy people. Like, I remember when I was younger, I had the hugest crush on Rick Moranis from Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp: Is Robert Downey Jr. nerdy? Okay. I thought Rick Moranis was dead—RIP if he is. He’s not? Okay, then I take back my RIP. Sorry, Rick, if you ever hear this, which I doubt you will. I do understand on an intellectual level, like, he seems like someone I’d have a conversation with, but being attracted to him? Entirely different. Like, you might as well say Urkel. Were you attracted to Urkel?
Taina Brown she/hers: No, he’s not dead. He just left Hollywood to be with his family. I was not attracted to Urkel, but Rick Moranis? I thought he was so cute. He was just adorable.
Becky Mollenkamp: He is adorable. But yeah, it’s interesting. I’m looking at a picture of him now, and he’s still alive. I don’t know who I was thinking of… maybe the guy from Bosom Buddies, Peter something. Talk about problematic faves—Tom Hanks, who somehow avoids all problematic conversations. He’s deeply beloved by everyone, but we sort of overlook the whole Bosom Buddies dressing up as women part of his life.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah. Yeah, I never saw that. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: I guess in its time, it didn’t seem problematic. But looking at it now, it was. It’s interesting how some people escape the problematic label.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some people just escape it—they’re on the fringe. But I love Tom Hanks. Sleepless in Seattle and You’ve Got Mail are two of my favorite movies.
Becky Mollenkamp: I love Philadelphia too, if we’re just throwing in something more serious.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, yeah. I think I find him problematic because of his absence in certain conversations. You know what I mean? Like, he’s just so absent from a lot of critical conversations. He might be having them in private, I don’t know. But I think…
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, it’s like Taylor Swift not using the power she has. Tom Hanks is one of the most powerful men in Hollywood, but he’s not using his platform. I feel like excusing that isn’t really fair.
Taina Brown she/hers: No, it’s not. When you’re such a public figure, you have to make public statements. You can’t get away with not making public statements. Yeah. And he has a very problematic son, Chet.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, you’re right. Not Colin—Colin’s fine, but Chet is a problem. Has Tom said anything about that? I think his brother has, but I’m not sure if Tom has.
Taina Brown she/hers: No, neither Tom nor Rita has said anything about Chet.
Becky Mollenkamp: As a parent, I get how complicated it would be. Like, looking at school shootings or something like January 6th—God forbid my child were involved in something like that or worse. It’s hard to envision a world where I wouldn’t still fiercely love my child, even if I hated everything they were doing. That’s what makes me think Tom could still say something like, “I love my child, but I disagree with how he’s showing up in the world.”
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: That’s a way to navigate it. Maybe I should be a PR person.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, that’s a very simple way to make a public statement. And I think for people who are critical thinkers, for people doing the work of navigating the messy world we live in…
Becky Mollenkamp: Every parent would understand that.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, we understand that loving your child but disagreeing with them doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive. Those two things can coexist. You don’t have to give up the love of your child to say, “You’re wrong for what you did or said.”
Becky Mollenkamp: Where it gets tricky, though, and maybe this is for a future episode, is in relationships. I saw this TikTok or reel where a white lady was getting ready to go vote, and her white husband said, “I’m right behind you.” She gives him a hug and then handcuffs him to the couch so he can’t vote because he’s an asshole. Those kinds of things make me think, “Then why are you with them?” It’s harder for me to excuse that than it is for parents with kids.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, dump him, girl, dump him. But you don’t get to choose your kid’s personality. You do get to choose who you want to spend the rest of your life with.
Becky Mollenkamp: There’s also something to be said for growth. You might grow at a different pace than your partner. I’ve experienced that. At some point, you have to ask, “Have we reached a place where we’re so unaligned that I can’t continue this relationship?” That’s a discussion for the future—we could talk all day.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, you can grow at different paces, but you can’t be going to different places. Mic drop.
Becky Mollenkamp: Ooo, I love that! Let’s drop the mic, yes.
Taina Brown she/hers: I have two things I want to end with. One, if you’re listening, we want to know your problematic faves. Hit us up on social media or email us. Who are your problematic faves so we can talk about them and learn about them? And second, I found an analogy for the difference between a million and a billion. This is from Quora. A million seconds is roughly 11 days.
Becky Mollenkamp: Ooh.
Taina Brown she/hers: A billion seconds is almost 32 years. So when we say there are no ethical billionaires, it’s because, like you said, you can’t even spend that amount. You can spend a million dollars in your lifetime, but you can’t spend a billion. You could be an ethical millionaire.
Becky Mollenkamp: I could spend a million dollars in the next 11 days, easily. If I had to, I could probably spend a million today—buy a house, pay off debt. I’d be a million in just like that. Anyway, but yes, very true. And at some point…
Taina Brown she/hers: Seriously. Easily.
Becky Mollenkamp: We’ll give it a little space between this episode, but I’d like to come back to the ethical billionaire issue because it’s such a big one that people don’t fully grasp. I’ve had pushback around Taylor Swift, and people don’t understand. When you say there are no ethical billionaires, they think, “But she’s a good person.” There’s a difference between being a good person and being ethical. So, yes.
Taina Brown she/hers: Mm. Yeah, that’s different. That’s different.
Becky Mollenkamp: So let’s talk about that in a future episode. There’s a little tease for what’s to come. Thank you. This was fun—we went long.
Taina Brown she/hers: Yeah, it was fun. OK, thank you!