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We talk to the people that make the gaming industry happen, past & present. From casual players to industry CEOs. Gaming for the Culture is for the people by the people. Gaming mobile to VR!
Junae (00:01.758)
to another episode of Gaming for the Culture. I am your hostess with the mostest, Junae and we have another special guest because why would we not have another guest? It just makes sense. We have another special guest that I've known for a long time, but this is probably like our second time conversing. Keith, go ahead and introduce yourself.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (00:21.731)
What is up everybody? I am Keith Mitchell. I am the editor in chief of Aruhane Productions and I'm here to answer every and all questions and see what I can find out about Janaye and see how I can make her laugh. We'll find out. Opsie, I won. There we go.
Junae (00:34.814)
Well, I'm already laughing so Mission accomplished podcast episode done. See you guys next week Yeah, so we and Keith work together Keith actually Had me review them fighting herds and I love the game and the little Jamaican goat called shanty I'll never forget that and he also runs a publication called outer haven and
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (00:41.795)
We're done. See ya.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (00:56.675)
Junae (01:01.662)
I'm telling all of your business, Keith, tell your own business. Tell the people your business.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (01:06.403)
Sure. So, The Outer Haven is a video game and geek culture website where independent journalists that we talk about video games, comics, manga, anime, TV, films, pretty much everything that people who are listening to this podcast probably want to check out. I started this site 12, 13 years ago because to be honest, there was not a lot of people in the space who looked like me and I wanted to get my own type of gaming and tell people how things are in my own spin.
put some actual honesty out there and see what will work and how things would turn out. And it actually turned out pretty good seeing that we're still here. We've got a great team of people that love to do the same thing that I do, like my individuals. We get to go check out events. We actually just came back from checking out Summer Game Fest 2024, which is actually cool. First time going to that event, we were invited to go out there and I was like, holy crap, did you guys make a mistake in inviting us out there? But it's been pretty cool. So yeah. Yeah.
living some of the dream, some of the dream.
Junae (02:08.51)
No, they did not make a mistake. They said what they said and they invited you out there and we love that. And I think I know the feeling that you're talking about because I had that when I got an E3 press badge. I was like, who me? Can you? Like, I was just like, what are we doing? And then I was like, yeah, like you're right. Like I am supposed to be here. And I'm very grateful RIP to E3. Very grateful that I...
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (02:34.403)
Yeah.
Junae (02:35.582)
did get to experience that, but you know, I think you know, you're not like, not you, but Outer Haven isn't as old as E3 is, but you know, you've outlasted E3 and like your numbers seem to be doing good or otherwise you wouldn't be able to like maintain this level of like production and being able to go to these events because.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (02:45.187)
No, no, no.
Junae (02:58.59)
Anybody who wants a press badge, it's not hard to do it, but you do have to like continuously give them content. It might be harder. They might be cutting down on it now, but like when I was like applying for press badges, I was getting them left and right, but I had to like keep up with it.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (03:13.219)
They actually are changing. Back in the day, I hate saying back in the day, but previously, yeah, they were like, just send us your site or show us what you do and they'll usually give you a pass. But now they're actually cracking down because a lot of people have... I'll use Pax's example because I know a little bit more about that. People would just sign up for the event and get access to the event and do no content or do very low quality content. And then they finally went, look,
Junae (03:19.678)
you
Junae (03:38.846)
That's true.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (03:42.019)
This is not working out. We're not going to keep giving people press passes. So I keep seeing people on Twitter getting upset. Like I didn't get a press pass this year. And I was like, well, what did you do last year? I just went. Okay. Did you do anything? No. Okay. That's why you didn't get one this year. They want to see something. I don't want to talk too much about this, but this is something a lot of people need to understand. Do stuff like this. Do independent gaming journalism, do content creation, wherever you want to do.
But when you put in the work, people will usually see you. I know it's hard to believe that because trust me, I'm in your shoes, but going to these events as, you know, when they give you free tickets or free badges, what not, it is not a free ride. They expect something from you.
Junae (04:30.334)
This is not an influencer trip. And even if it was, they still expect something from you. Like, yes, it's exciting to go because I would want to go just to go, but you better believe that I had a day one, day two, day three video. Like you better believe I had like what to do before you get there. Like I would have forms of content before, during, and then I had a wrap up video. So like.
I wanted to work, you know, you young kids, I wanna, I'm just kidding, I'm not gonna finish that, because I don't wanna trigger anybody. But yeah, you do have to work, and you know, even if you just do like a wrap -up video, or like you just sit in the place and go, hey, I'm here, like it took me a really long time to get here, and you just put it up, like unedited, well you know, they do one of it higher quality content, but if you just like, hey, this is my vlog, it could be a bit more unedited than if you were to do like a...
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (05:02.275)
Yeah.
Junae (05:20.702)
Day 1 recap, Day 2, Day 3, afterward, things like that.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (05:25.571)
Yeah, you definitely have to do something. Don't get access to these events. And it's twofold actually. You get access to these events and you do nothing and you expect to get access again and you're actually ruining it for other people because then they start clamping down and going, well, look, this person went and didn't do anything. This person went and didn't do anything. And you know what they say, people always see the bad that you do and not the good that you do. So don't ruin it.
Junae (05:53.982)
Don't ruin it.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (05:54.243)
You get access to this event, then work your butt off. And if you do like two or three things, not everybody is massive. Just go there. Show them some. Yeah, no, exactly.
Junae (06:00.542)
And it doesn't even have to be video. You can always write something, right? Like, they, I, you know, I feel like a press badge is the one thing that's not very elitist about the industry. Like if you do the work, you will get one. And it doesn't hurt to know somebody, but like, without me knowing anybody, I was getting press badges, but I was actually doing the work and I was very, very active. Like I didn't just, my work didn't just pop up when Pax was popping up or.
you know, E3 or anything like that. Like I never been to San Diego Comic Con, but I also don't do Comic Con, like, or comic stuff. So it kind of makes sense that I wouldn't get a press badge if I applied. Like at the end, they were like, no, I'd be like, I get it. You know, I, I was.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (06:45.059)
You actually are probably able to get one because they, I don't want to say cross -pollinate, but they do actually, because comics and video games go hand in hand. And typically like San Diego Comic -Con and New York Comic -Con and various other smaller events, they actually do have a lot of gaming scene stuff there. So when we started doing the gaming stuff, we actually started getting a lot of access to New York Comic -Con and we got invited at San Diego Comic -Con, which we never went because San Diego's way over there.
Most of us are now are situated on the East Coast.
Junae (07:20.894)
That is a far trip and it's San Diego, it's California, so you're gonna be paying a grip. You're gonna be paying a grip just to land there.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (07:26.883)
I learned I learned going to summer game fest. I learned.
Junae (07:31.582)
Yeah, you gonna step off that plane. It's gonna cost money. You gonna lie down. It's gonna cost money. You breathe more money.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (07:35.619)
And about to -
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (07:39.843)
It's, I've, I gotta say that plus I took my family. So, but we went to, let's see, let me add it up. Plane tickets were like three grand. Yeah, it's ridiculous. Stayed in an Airbnb that was like two grand, which made more sense because instead of ordering food all the time, you can make your own food. I took them to Universal, which was, I think I spent like eight grand. Well, in total, in total.
Junae (08:04.51)
Universal or in total in total?
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (08:09.119)
no, I spent, I spent a grippy at Universal, but it wasn't like grand. It was more than I, every time they was like, I'm going to go get this. Let's go get this. I was like, Hmm. My bank account. man. That's a.
Junae (08:19.422)
You just look at them and it's like ding ding ding like
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (08:22.851)
It was like, you know, it's cool. It's a vacation. You guys are here. I said, you'll do what you want to do and I'll figure it out next time. But yeah, it's do the work guys. I don't want to sound like those people to keep saying doing the work and you'll get it because that's unfortunately not always true.
Junae (08:26.526)
Yeah.
Junae (08:38.942)
You absolutely sound like one of those people, but I think that it is true for press badges. I think it's true. I think that's the only thing out of all of the things that we've been through in the games journalist space. That's the only thing where you're like, hey, if I have a goal to get a press badge, I just need to do content. I just need to write, turn on the camera, do a podcast. Like you have to do something that's related to it and do it where you're relevant. And I feel like you'll get a press badge.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (08:45.027)
It's -
Yes. Yeah.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (09:05.571)
Now, if we're talking about access to games and going to movies and getting hardware, no, no, that's completely different. Completely different.
Junae (09:10.174)
No, that's different.
Junae (09:15.838)
I just got my first AAA game in 2020. Like, I just got my first AAA game, like, for free, as a review copy. Thank you!
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (09:23.587)
Congratulations. Whoa, let me, let me stop you back up. You didn't get it for free because what do you have to do?
Junae (09:30.053)
Yeah, no, I gotta work for it. I gotta do work. I gotta do the content. So I got the review coffee before it came out to even though I'm not gonna lie. I was a little salty because when I was like, okay, like I really need to figure this out. Like I like, you know, nobody's played it yet. So I can't even be like, what are other people saying about it? And then I found out that they gave somebody a copy like three months ago. And I was like, Janae, you got to start from somewhere. You can't just be like, why y 'all didn't give me the coffee three months ago?
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (09:33.507)
You got to do the work. So it's not free. There you go.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (09:58.851)
Yeah, this is exactly how it is. And you know, we get that a lot. I mean, just because we've been in a game for a little bit, doesn't mean that we just get everything. It doesn't happen. It literally doesn't happen. We're lucky enough to have a bunch of PR people in various different PR companies that help us out a lot. Indie scene is also great. If you reach out to an indie person, nine times out of 10, they will give you access to the game because indie people, indie developers really want and need the help with exposure. So.
Junae (09:59.421)
but.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (10:27.139)
If you're thinking about starting something, look at the indie scene. But of course, you look at big people. I'm not going to name any names. Those are very hard to get access to.
Junae (10:37.47)
Name him. Like I'm Calypso. No.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (10:39.107)
I'm not gonna name a PlayStation. Mm -hmm. Did I just
Junae (10:45.438)
We didn't hear anything. We didn't hear anything.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (10:50.179)
For the gamers. We just ignore all the gamers. I'm sorry, I didn't say that out loud. I didn't say that out loud.
Junae (10:54.43)
No!
Junae (11:00.254)
staying right where we were. My inbox is full of indie games to play, which is why I started recruiting people to help me write because I started teaching them how to do it and then having them help me write. Because I have my own site, it's not Outer Haven, but I realized I've had it for a while and I wasn't utilizing it to the best of my ability because I have that site and then I have my Janay site and then it's like, doing so much.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (11:07.299)
There you go.
Junae (11:27.71)
But yeah, I think indie games have always carried the industry. They have not been treated very nicely because indie games, they're at a more accessible price point and they tell a deeper story besides like, you know, a white guy beating people up to avenge or revenge or get what he wants.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (11:50.883)
There's a lot of amazing indie games out there that have just blown my mind. When I was at Summer Game Fest, there was a game called Flock that's coming out. When they said, hey, it's a flight simulator, check it out. I was like, all right, I'll check it out. And I played it. I was like, this is a person riding a giant bird, checking out other creatures and freeing them. This is not a flight simulator. But the more I started playing it, I was like, this is actually one of those cozy, relaxed...
not super serious games. And I was like, all right, this is actually pretty cool. And I was kind of upset when it was like, all right, you got to get off now. I'm like, but I'm playing this game and I'm liking it.
Junae (12:29.566)
That's funny.
Junae (12:34.622)
Yeah, I love the indie game. That's how I started. And so they'll always have a special place in my heart. I'm about to become an indie developer myself.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (12:44.451)
Congratulations. What do you got? What's going on? What you doing? Can you tell us? You know, wait for us.
Junae (12:48.958)
You want me to give you an exclusive on my own show?
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (12:53.315)
Do you know what? That's how you learn people. You ask questions. You never be afraid to ask.
Junae (12:56.414)
Yeah, all I can say is that it is a 2 .5D adventure game, if it even continues to stay as an adventure game, adventure action or something like that. So that's all I can say. Hopefully, if I have the demo in the timeframe, I'm being vague on purpose, if I have the demo in the timeframe that I have it, I'll start telling people. Like I will...
write up my own press release. I will do like send out my own like review copies you know like I will start telling people and like generating hype for it and things like that. So if I have it in the time frame that I think it's going to happen.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (13:43.171)
Well, keep it up and if you'd keep doing it, be sure to send us a press release.
Junae (13:47.262)
Absolutely, it'll be the first one. And I expect to see it that day. I don't care if I send the press release at midnight at 101 AM.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (13:56.451)
You just keep nagging me, Keith, where's this? You said you were going to do this. Where is it? Where is it? Because I'll be honest, we do get a lot of pressure leases and we don't do all of them because we just get so overwhelmed. We're, we're still small and it's just like here, here, here, here, here, here. Like, look, I get it. We want to help. No, no, I want to help everybody. We want to help everybody. But it's like, it's hard. It's just, there's too many. There's, there's too many out there.
Junae (14:07.23)
Yeah.
Junae (14:11.742)
And it's kind of hard. go ahead. I went. Go ahead.
Junae (14:22.014)
I also think that it's hard to not sound like a cheerleader for a game you've never played, right? Like I'll give you an example in my writing guild, because that's what I call it. I had someone write a press release and they were like, and this game you get to do this. And I was like, hey, we're not the PR company. You don't have to be excited about it. You could just be like, hey, this is what's happening. You know, like.
In layman's term, I'm like, we're regurgitating the press release, but in an interesting way, because that's all we have to go on. We only know what they're giving us. And if they have a previous game, you know, we say, this game is like this. So if you like persona, you'll like this game. If you like like things like that. So
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (14:59.075)
Yes.
Junae (15:08.926)
It's hard to just be like, hey, here is, you know, Coochie Copey number three. Here is like, you know, Winnie the Pooh six and like without sounding like you're for sale. You know, even though we don't get no money when we do press releases, we're just doing it for the love of the game, right? Like we're literally doing it for the love of the game. We don't even get any money when we do like the bigger games because it's different if I'm like.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (15:27.043)
Yeah, that's literally it.
Junae (15:35.998)
Hey, you know, such and such. If I'm like, hey, Outer Haven, like I have exclusive rights to this game. Let me write. You're like, okay, well, here's our freelance payment, right? Versus it being yours. Like you don't get any money off of that. Like you just doing it for the love of the game. You're doing it cause you're like, Hey, I want to, I really want to see this industry succeed. I really want to see like, you know, in this game seems really, really cool. And like, and then, you know, you also get to be like that archive. You get to be like,
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (15:53.859)
Yeah, you.
Yeah.
Junae (16:05.886)
this game existed. I remember there was a game that I played on YouTube that was called Split Arena. It was called like Split Arena Gate, Split Arena, something like that. And like I played it and when I played it, it probably got like six views, seven views. And then like years later, somebody was like, I'm so glad that there's footage that this game existed because everyone's pretending like it never existed. And I feel like I only played the demo for the game maybe to like
come out and then not be important or maybe to like never come out. And so it's like, you don't really see that until years later. Does that happen to you? Where you're like, why am I even doing this? And then like you see some type of payoff.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (16:45.731)
Yeah, a lot. There's been plenty of times and my friends at The Art of Hating would tell you that I'm like, you know what? I'm done. I just can't. I just get so frustrated and I give up and I just disappear for a day or two and then I come back. I get very frustrated because this is just me being selfish. I just feel like we do a lot of great work and a lot of times it's just not seen. And then you see like a great example is these... What's the word I'm looking for? These trailers.
these accolade trailers and it come out and it's always the same people. It's always the same sites. It's always the same people getting invited to events, always the same people being shown stuff. And it's like, are you going to let somebody else have a chance? It's always going to be the same people. Like I could, we could do the most amazing editorial or review or video and people won't look at it because who are these? Who are you? Who are you? You're not X or B or C or D. You're
some nobody that I've never heard of. And it's like, well, yeah, that's the whole point. Everybody starts from nowhere. Nobody starts from the top. Give people a chance. And it just doesn't happen. And then you get frustrated and you just go, well, why am I doing this? You know, and then you come back and go, all right, shrug it off. Let's go. Let's get back to work.
Trust me, I would have stopped this site many, many years ago if that was the case.
Junae (18:07.614)
See.
Junae (18:12.03)
Yeah, like if you could get discouraged so easily for like a long time. What you're saying is one of the reasons, maybe the main reason why my article for PC Gamer, like the 11 hidden gem streamers that you didn't know about, did so well. Because there were a lot of people who felt that way and I gave them different people to look at and it was such a big hit. They're like, my gosh, you need to do more of these. But also...
if I had wrote that just as like Janae and who knows right because at that time my work was getting a bit more popular. But like if it's like if I had wrote that as just Janae they would have been like I mean I guess these are interesting people but it's because a bigger publication was like taking the time to recognize the little guy and I feel the exact same way or maybe I felt the exact same way.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (19:03.235)
I'm not a fan of that. I'm totally not a fan of that. I just don't like...
I mean like a brand, Hey, what'd you story? What'd you story? I don't drink it, but you know, people see the love story. Sorry, it came out of nowhere. You had Coke, you had Pepsi, you had Sprite, you had everything else. Sorry, it came out of nowhere. What story? I don't know. Let's give it a drink. I like story now. Okay. It's a nobody. It was a no brain, no brand nobody knew about. And all of a sudden, we love it. Doesn't hurt that the company spent millions of dollars on advertising, but it's something new that people try. And that's something I always complain about. Not just.
In my circle, if you look at Twitter, you see me, I'm always talking about, I'm always advocating for independent gaming journalism. It's like, there are hundreds of us out there. Give us a try. Just because you've never heard of this company doesn't mean that they're whacking or just out there doing garbage. There's a lot of people out there. There's a lot of great personalities on these sites that do amazing work and they just need a chance for you to see them.
Junae (20:05.502)
I think that we as consumers have to check our biases. I know I have them. Like if I'm scrolling on TikTok and I see a video has low views, I'll give it a couple seconds and then I'll be like, this is not for me, right? But like as a person who posts content and then I get low views, I'm like, why doesn't anybody like it? But at the same time, it's not for you, it's not for you.
I have started to realize that and give something like a bit more of a chance. I don't mind a small name. It's like with TikTok specifically, I don't mind a small name. It's that they're trying to like waste my time as if they were like the bigger creators. And I'm not saying they're allowed to waste my time either. It's just like, you know, when somebody does like a gimmick.
And then it's like, I'm trying to like sum up my TikTok experience into a couple of words. So I see a video and it has a lot of high views and you know, and I stop, I see a video, it has high views and then it's like, watch this. And then I'm like, okay, what's gonna happen? And then maybe like 12, 15 seconds in, I'm scrolling through the comments and I'm like, nothing. And then I'll scroll up. And so if that happens on somebody who maybe has like two views and no comments, I'll give it maybe like.
eight seconds, five seconds, and then I'm like, I'm just gonna go on because like, this is gonna take too long or like, you're not really getting to the point. So as consumers, I say that to say this, we need to check our biases and you know, if someone is reporting on something, you know, maybe we don't have to run to the big three. Maybe we don't have to run directly to the big three. I also think people want a lot out of independent journalists.
because independent games journalists, because like you want me to review Starfield, but then you also want me to review like a Bugsnax. And it's like, okay, if you guys don't know what Bugsnax is, I loved Bugsnax. This is not even like a Bugsnax plug, but like I stream like the whole thing on YouTube. my gosh. Let's not get off track because I love Bugsnax. It's like weird and as weird as it was, I love Bugsnax.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (21:53.635)
Yeah.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (22:11.843)
I've never played it. I've never played it.
Junae (22:23.998)
But yeah, they want us to compete with the big three, right? We can't, and it's like, I can give you my take on like Starfield, right? Because then it's more valuable, me as a woman, black woman, da da da da. Like, you know, I can then give my take, but if you want me just to kind of do like a review, why? You're about to be like, what do they have to say about it? Because you know.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (22:28.227)
And we can't, we can't.
Junae (22:48.798)
IGN gives it a four out of five. Like this person gives it a eight out of 10. Like, you know, things like that. And like, I'm just going to be like, Hey, I don't think it was very good. You know, this isn't anything on like Starfield or anything like that. It's just, you don't need me in that area, but what you do need is, you know, what the big, big ones aren't covering. That's when like, you know, maybe you come check me out, come see what I'm doing. Like, because it's a bit more interesting because I have say,
and what we're reporting. Like, does that make sense? Yeah.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (23:20.707)
Exactly. Exactly. No, that is the main reason why our Haven is here. We have a say on what we're doing. I don't want to talk about my site. I don't want to pitch the site like that. I mean, yes, I do, but I don't want to keep saying, I don't hate our Haven. But that is the reason why we exist. There's a reason why a lot of independent sites exist because they get to talk about stuff the way they want to talk about it. They're not beholden to -
an investor or somebody at the top saying, you got to say this, you got to say this, you got to say this. No, we say what we want to say. And a lot of times we say stuff that people just don't like. And it's like, well, we don't care. We're being honest here. And we're not going to lie. You know, we don't, we don't have a PR company going, you got to say this, this, this, this, this, this. And we go, no, we just talk about what we like, what we don't like. And that's it.
Junae (24:08.894)
And I think that's valuable, right? Because, man, I think that's valuable because like, if I was like your editor and like, I didn't understand your experience, your jargon, your language, your point of view, I could easily be like, Keith, I don't think that's going to be a banger, change it, right? Like easily and like, but somebody put me in charge of you. So now you have to pull out this piece that made it Keith's, right? Now you can't do that.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (24:36.291)
So, so, so go back to when you did thumb fighting urge full fuss. What did I tell you?
Junae (24:44.35)
I don't remember.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (24:45.731)
I said, do you write the review the way that you write the review? You use your writing style, your mannerisms, everything that you want to do, it's you. I mean, I'll come back and like, all right, this doesn't sound right. Maybe change that, but I will never go back and change what somebody has written unless it's like really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really bad.
Junae (24:50.814)
this.
Junae (25:06.174)
That's facts and I actually do remember that and I really appreciated when you said that too because you know at the time I was getting like interest from some people but they wanted me to just write like them right like can you write like our style they didn't really want me to like write how I was writing it so like I did appreciate when you said that so yes I do remember.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (25:30.915)
Because if I told you or anybody else to write something in the style that we want and we have a format of how you want to do it, nine times out of 10 you go, well, I'm not going to be able to convey what I want to convey because you're making me stop doing so. And that doesn't work. It doesn't fly here. Everybody talks a certain way. Everybody does things a certain way. And I would rather them do it that way than...
you know, being stuck in a, in a, what's the word for it? If you were stuck in a certain format, I was gonna leave it at that. I don't have the correct way to say it, so I'll just leave it at that. So yeah, that's just why, you know, a lot of people, if you look at our stuff, one person says something that's maybe very, you know, comedy -like or straightforward, some are maybe a little bit more upset and angry in their writing. But at the end of the day, we get our point across.
Junae (26:28.958)
Talk to me about the business side of game journalism since you run a site and you have a team.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (26:35.907)
Well, it can go a lot of ways. Do you have any, any specifics?
Junae (26:40.286)
Nope, just top to bottom. Hey, I'm Keith. I wanted to do this. You started doing it. You're like, dang, it'd be easier if I got some other people. How did like the finances work? How did the business model work? How did you find these people?
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (26:52.291)
Okay. Okay. So we'll go, we'll start from the very beginning. So before the outer haven was the thing, I ran a video game archive site that predates a lot of the sites out there right now. I took soundtracks and ripped game music and it was called shadowhacks .net. It was very big, very popular. People loved it. And that's not a joke. And if I had monetized that, I probably would have kept doing it today, but I didn't because I didn't know.
what that meant back then. I just knew I loved video game music. I loved the bips, the sounds back then of the beeps and the boops and how it changed to what it is now. So I ran that site using custom software and it was a whole mess. Dedicated servers, all that fun stuff.
Junae (27:36.862)
So you were doing it like a while back.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (27:39.811)
yeah, I was doing that for at least 10 years. You can actually still go back and, you know, Google it and find it. There are still people reaching out to me on Reddit. I don't know how they're finding me. I mean, I guess the nickname and asking me, Hey, do you still have this? Do you still have that? Do you still have that? And I still work with them.
Junae (27:55.006)
Not you having good SEO and you don't know how people are finding you. They're obviously finding you through your SEO.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (28:01.315)
No, they're literally typing in my nickname and finding me. They're literally, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah. So while I was doing that, I incorporated a chat room onto the site. So the very first thing when you got there, there was a chat room and we would talk about games and comics and everything else. And somebody was like, you know, you should actually start a site about a podcast. And I was like, huh, that's actually a really interesting idea.
Junae (28:04.062)
Right, but that's like your name on everything. Yeah.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (28:29.955)
So a couple months later, we shut the site down because like, look, if we're going to actually do a podcast and do it legit, we can't have this gray area anymore. And the site was a gray area. I mean, to my credit, or to the credit, I was the only one running that site. We only got contacted once by a company telling us to take down their stuff. Only once. And that was Nintendo. And they told us to take down the Donkey Kong. I forget which way it was, a soundtrack.
Junae (28:55.806)
It doesn't matter. You said Nintendo. They're very...
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (28:58.467)
But I had tons of Mario stuff up there and they didn't care!
Junae (29:02.302)
What did you do? No, like, why do you think they asked you to take it down?
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (29:04.131)
I took it down.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (29:08.227)
I don't know. I don't know. I literally don't know. I didn't ask. I just, all right, this is gone. I took it down. I don't know what that was. No, it was just a soundtrack. It was just there. I don't know. I literally do not know. They just said, take it down.
Junae (29:16.894)
Dang. Did you say you hated or something?
Junae (29:26.462)
We need somebody from Nintendo to contact us. To tell us.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (29:29.987)
I mean, the site doesn't exist anymore. So, but yeah, they were like, take that down. I was like, okay, I'll take it down. They didn't say take down all our stuff. They didn't say we're going to sue you. They were just like, take this down.
Junae (29:41.982)
That's interesting.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (29:43.203)
So, so from there we started the podcast. We did a couple of podcasts and it worked out pretty well. and back then the podcast was still under the shadow hacks of site and then it was called, the show acts of podcasts. And you were like, you know what, we need to change it to something else. So we started playing around with names. we, one of them was the arsenal podcast, which didn't work so well because the arsenal football team or a soccer team. So that got a little mixed up. So we changed it again.
Junae (30:10.43)
Yeah, they were like, why are you not talking about?
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (30:13.539)
So then we was like, the outer haven sounds cool. And I was like, well, we're fans of metal gear. So there we go. And then it went from podcasts to all right. Maybe we're going to talk about video games. So there was actually a couple of us, four of us, and they all dipped out for one reason or another. Some couldn't do it anymore. Some just went crazy. one of them actually was working with a very prominent fighting game, scene coordinator, biggie.
Shouts out to Holland. He's doing it big time with Eat Biggie and doing a lot of fighting game stuff. So obviously he couldn't help out anymore. So it was just me. So I basically started going out to Twitter and some various other places to go. I need some help running this site. Would anybody be interested? So one person was like, yeah, I'll help. And we started going back and forth, figuring out things. And then he was like, I know another person who might be able to help. So that's how we got a hold of Joshua.
who's at the site now, who does all of our anime stuff. And then from there, somebody reached out to us, like, I see the site and I was like, I was wondering if you wanted any help. And then it basically went off from there. The main core of the site is all volunteer, which unfortunately it really does suck for independent gaming, but doing that, it is all volunteer stuff. But you keep people around for the stuff that you can do for them and the stuff that you can get for them.
Josh is happily being flooded by anime and manga. Everybody else, we get access to game codes. We get access to events. We don't, not paid obviously. We don't get fluent flown or driven there, but we get access to events. So you think about the one second, you know, going to PAX is like a hundred, $200. Getting access to PAX is for your entire team is up there. Getting invited to E3 is up there. So you're getting access. You're getting
stuff just not getting paid directly. And then we just started reaching out to various different people like, Hey, I want to review your game. Hey, I want to, I want to talk to you. I want to have an interview with you. And a lot of people either didn't reply back or was like, yeah, sure. And when we first started doing this, our writing sucked. It literally sucked. It was bad. It was so bad. I still find myself going back, looking at all of our old stuff and writing and just going, man, wow. And just
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (32:39.395)
updating it. Like, yeah, I can't believe that somebody actually read this and went, wow, I gave this guy a chance. This is garbage.
Junae (32:45.982)
I did that yesterday. I went back to one of the very first anime conventions that I covered and I literally had to skip through it. I was like, Janaye, what were you thinking? So at least you can update your articles. I just gotta leave the video. I just gotta eat that. That's just, you know, like it's YouTube history now.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (33:00.003)
Yeah.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (33:04.995)
But that's the learning experience. I worked in IT. I did technical documents when I had no idea how to write this stuff or the proper syntax or journalism or anything. I just learned as I went and started going better. And when people came to us, this sucks. I'm like, okay, what sucks? Tell me about it. Tell me what sucks. Some people...
Junae (33:30.622)
That's interesting, a transition from technical to like creative almost like a bit.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (33:35.779)
Yeah, and some people were receptive and they were like, okay, well, this doesn't make any sense. And the punctuation is terrible. Like, all right. And then you learn and you learn until you go, okay, now I'm a lot better. And to the point where now when people want to come onto the site and they don't have any kind of a writing skills or journalism skills, I helped them learn. I literally helped, I've helped one person who ended up going to work for a rock star. I don't know if they're there anymore.
I helped another person, which I'm very frustrated about. I won't name a name, who wants to go work for a very big gaming website and then end up working for PlayStation.
Help another person out who went to another larger gaming site. So what I tell people when they come here is this is a, this is a stepping stone, right? This is your soap box. You get on the soap box, you say what you got to say, and then you decide if you want to stay here and keep doing it, what you want to do or you learned. And then you figure out, okay, maybe I want to do something bigger. May I want to do something that, you know, helps me get paid. Maybe I want to do something more in the gaming space. Okay. Fantastic. I am not hurtful about that. I understand how the game works.
Good luck. Congratulations. Keep going. But business -wise, it's very, very odd. You reach out for coach, reach out to go to events, you reach out for interviews. Sometimes people get back to you. Sometimes people just completely ghost you. And it's just how it is.
One moment you think you're doing good, you're getting somewhere. The next second you get knocked down a peg. One moment you're talking to somebody about a possible collaboration. Next time you talk to a person and you're like, you don't do enough traffic for us.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (35:27.523)
Okay. I won't name the company. I won't name the company, but they were like, you need to do at least 10 ,000 views per page. I'm like, 10 ,000 views per page? What? Are you, what? Are you smoking crack? That's not going to happen. And I was like, well, that's all right. You know, and you move along, but at the same time, you know that that same company works with smaller people or people that are in your space that are doing
Junae (35:28.67)
I thought you knew that.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (35:57.315)
along the same type of ... That has crossed my mind a couple of times, and I've literally said that to some people, it does happen. Unfortunately, we do have that issue within the gaming space, and there are prominent people who've talked about that in the gaming space, and a lot of them aren't just black, which I'm glad to see a lot more people are coming around and realizing that there is an issue of diversity in the gaming space.
Junae (35:59.55)
Do you think it's because you're black?
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (36:25.891)
some of them aren't too proud about it. Some of them are very upset about it. So I'm glad to see that there's a lot of people who are coming around. And unfortunately, and I hate to say this, and I know plenty of people are going to yell at me and I hate to say this, we have a problem with seeing other people do well.
You know, my color, our skin tone people, our people of color have an issue with seeing other people do well. And instead of trying to help other people, we want to knock them down a peg. And that frustrates me to no extent, to no extent. And I don't like that. Yes. Yes. And I hate that. You know, we're, there's more than enough in this space for us both to thrive.
Junae (37:06.398)
You're speaking from personal experience in the gaming industry.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (37:16.963)
but you rather try and keep everything for yourself, act like you're the only person or persons that matter. And I don't like it. That's exactly why when I see somebody trying to do something, I reach out to them like, hey, maybe I can help you. I know a lot of people that try to get access to game codes and they're like, look, I just want to start, and I can't get one. And I'll go ask for view codes and I go, can I get two? And sometimes they give me two, sometimes they give me three. And I go, here.
Here's a code. Go. Go do what you got to do.
I don't remember how many quotes I give out and for the PR people to hear me, you look, sorry, but you did get your review from us. So, but yeah, I, I w I'll do it cause I want to see people thrive and not just black people, everybody. I want, I want to see everybody thrive in this space. Do what you want to do because the, the, the reality is, and I say this all the time and it's very morbid, morbid. We're not here forever. We're not here forever. So you do what you do now and then, you know,
else will take your place or you won't be here tomorrow. So I do what I can to help other people out. It is what it is. I just wish more people were like that. And there are a lot more people in this space to think just like I do because I've talked to them, but I'm not going to name any names because that would be bad.
Junae (38:40.798)
need a gaming for the culture uncut like BT uncut so people can say the names that they want to I can't tell you how many times I've been talking to somebody and they are like and I'm like just just like how are we what are they gonna do beat you up no don't let me instigate you said something really really interesting about asking for two game codes and outer haven is bigger than
like the site that I'm running, right? Like you have a bit more leg room than I do in the industry when it comes to that, because I have worked with people who are like, yeah, I wanna work, I wanna do this. And I'm like, hey, here's the game code. And then I'm like, don't take this game code if you're not gonna do it, because they will stop giving me game codes if you continue to like not turn stuff in. Because if I give this game code to you,
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (39:32.355)
Yes.
Junae (39:38.462)
and it is on your system, it is on your profile, and I cannot get to it to follow up and do what I need to do, then they don't have their content, and that reflects poorly on me. And it's happened to me a couple of times, you know? And so much so that I have started being like, nah, log into my profile and play it. Log into this profile and play it. So if you just are like, you know, then I could still.
I could still turn in the review because I'm not gonna have you ruin my name because you know this was hard or you know it was more than you thought and you should say that though like I did have one person be like hey like I just can't do it I thought I could but like you know
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (40:20.803)
I had a person do that. I actually had several people do that, but I had one person really screw us over. You know who you are, Ryan. I'll say your name. You know exactly who you are, buddy. We were trying to work with PlayStation for a hot minute. Really, really, really, really, really. Sometimes they would talk to us and then they would disappear. We got access to Horizon's Forbidden West. We got a code and he was like, I want to review it. All right, here you go. Review it. And then he left.
Junae (40:32.51)
Well.
Junae (40:44.99)
Wow.
Junae (40:52.67)
like
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (40:53.059)
And I was like, you took the code and you left. You owe us that review.
Nothing. Never said anything. And then he replies to other places and gets brought on and he works with them and he keeps moving around from different places. And it's like, but dude, you totally screwed us. That could be a reason why PlayStation doesn't want to work with us. Like, hey, we gave them a code and they totally F 'ed us. And I told them, I said, hey, this guy left. He took the code and bounced. There's nothing I can do.
Junae (41:02.622)
Never saying nothing to you, ever.
Junae (41:27.486)
Yeah, it's hard. People want you to trust them, but they haven't given you a reason to. And I think that's good business because we're already doing as much as we can, getting people in, teaching them what we know, giving them information. But when I put my business at risk, that's not cool. And especially, even though we talk about indie games and stuff like that, but it's PlayStation.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (41:52.195)
There's always that issue or that lingering back of your mind for people you don't really know that they could take the cold and run. And that's just the business. You hope it doesn't happen. I mean, obviously if you're paying somebody, they're not going to take the cold and run because then you go, well, I'm not going to pay you. But when you're doing a volunteer thing and you're like, all I can do for now is give you access to stuff. And a lot of people don't...
Junae (42:08.542)
Yeah.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (42:20.739)
take that seriously. Like if I'm giving you access to like four to five, six, 50 to 60 to $70 games a month.
Junae (42:23.998)
I don't care.
Junae (42:28.286)
Yeah, they don't care. They don't care. I don't know. I don't know why.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (42:31.011)
and ahead and ahead of before everybody get access to this game.
Junae (42:36.958)
And you just at home playing it like I like I see you playing it like it says 72 hours in X game that you didn't play for. But all now you can't write write write me 600 words. You can't do it. You can't. Yeah.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (42:37.379)
Thank you.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (42:48.323)
Right.
Exactly. You know, and that's why I'm glad the team I have is an amazing team, you know, and the people, the freelancers that I worked with have been all been amazing. But to be real, you know, these companies need to have some kind of profile or account that you can log in and go, okay, I'm assigning this to this person and they have to log in like steam. All right. There's an account you have to log in and play this game on steam. That is literally it.
Junae (42:54.878)
Yeah.
Junae (43:12.734)
Yeah, it's so much easier to get like a business account, not like a business, but like a throwaway account where you're just like, okay, here I am putting everything on here. So if people need access, I could just share my Steam library, right? I could just share this versus them having it and you not knowing. And they might feel a way because now they don't own that game, but it's like, Buki, you never own that game. It was, you know what I mean? It was given. Yeah.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (43:38.947)
That's the thing people don't understand that you do not own your games, especially when they're digital. You do not own your games. I've been saying that for years. Like I love the fact that we have hundreds of thousands of games in our steam library or Xbox live or PlayStation, but they can go, Nope. Nope. Sorry. It's not yours anymore. Ubisoft proved that the crew like, you can't play this game no more. Sorry guys. Sorry, bucko. It's not yours anymore.
Junae (43:46.59)
That part, you don't own them anyway.
Junae (44:07.87)
That's interesting that you say that because I was thinking about how you were saying that you could still go back and see some of your work that's like way, way, way long ago, right? Like decades ago that you have of your archives. And you know, we know MTV just kind of wiped all theirs and was like, hey, this isn't available anymore, whether it be like to the public or whatever the case is. What do you think about that? Like,
The gaming industry has proved that they can do that and that they kind of have, you know, and even
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (44:32.899)
I think that.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (44:37.283)
I think it's shitty. I think it's shitty. It's 100 % shitty. I think it's shitty when, when people have websites that have people that used to write for them or do videos for them and the person leads or they get rid of the person and they changed their name to somebody else or they delete their content or when games come out and they're long, no longer can be playable. And they just decide, okay, well you don't have, you don't have access to this game anymore. At the very minimum, just say, Hey, look, you can't play this game anymore, but here it is.
If it's an online game, it needs a server, I can't play more. I knew the risk when I bought the game. Like, I'm a big Souls -like fan. When From Software goes, this server is no longer available, at the very least, I can still play the game offline. But when you play a game that the crew that requires you to play online and that server and that online infrastructure is gone, at the very minimum, let me start the game and go, I used to be able to play this game. Now I can't.
Ladies went up, sorry, you don't own it anymore. We move it for your library. Like what? I pay for this. Are you going to give me back my money? You say I don't own this game. So it's a rental, right? Or it's a lease, right? Where's my return? You just, it's gone. It's just gone. That's terrible. That's one thing this industry needs to do better with. Stop telling us that we don't own our stuff. That whole crap, the whole outdated EULA of your, your
This let you know that you're only playing this game and you don't own this game that's BS
I don't like that. I don't like it whatsoever. I'm giving you money in exchange for something. That should be mine.
Junae (46:17.31)
What if we started a class action lawsuit to be like, if you take away my game and you don't give any warning and I can't play it at all, like you have to give us our money back, at least half. Like imagine it being like a law, like they had to be like, this was like 60, we'll give you 30 for it, you know, or like something. Of course not.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (46:34.435)
I don't see that ever flying in the US, but overseas. yeah, overseas. yeah, I can see that being a thing. Yes, I totally can see that being a thing. Especially Europe. I totally see that being a thing. And it should be a thing. It should be a thing. Because at the end of the day, they know this. These companies know this and they don't care. It's just like these people that are like, Xbox is better, PlayStation is better, blah, blah, blah. I don't partake in those arguments because I think they're silly.
because these guys are probably in the back room laughing and giggling, talking about how much money they made, X, Y, Z. We're partaking in something that it's just silly. And then we have these games, these companies that make these games and decide, well, yeah, they can't play this anymore, we move it. Screw them. They had their two years, three years, four years, five years. And it's even worse when you buy a game and it just dies in a -
Junae (47:15.774)
I agree.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (47:31.875)
a couple of months? Where's my money?
well you had a couple of days to play it, right? You're good. Bye.
Junae (47:39.134)
When you say it dies in a couple months, do you mean the community or like the like it's buggy like the development?
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (47:45.027)
The game is buggy. The game is buggy. The game is buggy. Like Anthem. That makes me cry so bad. Anthem has some good bones and they were just like, screw this game.
Junae (47:48.478)
like anthem.
Junae (47:53.438)
Yeah. Yeah.
That's kind of how I felt about Evolve. Or like Evolve 2, I was playing that where you're like you keep playing the monster. And I really wanted to play and then it was like, nah, we're empty. There's actually this new game. I just put it up on my YouTube, it's called Project Apodem. And you have like three different classes and it's a MOBA RPG. Rogue. Yeah, it's a MOBA RPG, like rogue -like.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (48:02.915)
evolve, man.
Junae (48:27.23)
game and there was nobody ever playing in the servers and it's a game that you can't play by yourself. Like I've tried to be like, okay, well, like, let me get through these waves and try to beat the boss. And like, you can't cause you have to do it in 15 minutes. And I was excited to try like a MOBA, right? Because I know Roguelite and I know RPG. So I'm like, throw the MOBA in there. Let's get this going. The game looks good. I think the graphics are good, but like day one.
there was never anybody on the servers and I was like, and it was a review copy and I was just like, I was like, that sucks because I wanted to play.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (49:03.523)
Yeah. I mean, that's just like Outriders. I think Outriders is dead and I was all gung -ho for that and they just started going the wrong way and it just...
Did did did so
Junae (49:17.79)
And I feel like we can go back and forth with all the kids.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (49:20.195)
Yeah, there's a lot of things I wish would be changed, could be changed in the game industry, but removing access to a game is super shady. Terrible. It's a terrible thing to do. At the very least, get people back to their money. Or...
Junae (49:32.694)
Yeah. Because that's why we're here, right? Like we came to you, we said, hey, it's like, I come to you, I give you $60 plus tax, and then the product that I give you just goes invisible and I can like never use it again. You know, it's, it's like you said, it's not a good feeling, you know, that doesn't make me happy, especially like, everyone has a connection to a game, right? Like,
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (49:47.363)
Exactly.
Junae (49:57.694)
I have Borderlands, I think physically and digitally, and if they were just like, hey, you can never turn this on again, I would be like, ouch, ouch, ouch. Yeah, like I would like to never turn it on again, to never turn it on again. Like I would be like, ouch, like, you know, that would really be painful. And so somebody's feeling like that about these other games. And like,
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (50:06.083)
That'd be terrible. That'd be terrible. Like, wow.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (50:20.259)
Almost definitely. There definitely is. But at the end of the day, and this is the thing, what exactly can we do about it? And unfortunately, the answer is nothing.
Junae (50:30.518)
I mean, right, because we would have to, I wrote an article about this. And I said that we would have to collectively say, hey, we're not playing these games, we're gonna hurt their pockets, so they have to make a change. Because that's the only time people make changes. They don't care about nothing else. They don't care about us crying for diversity. They don't care about us talking about we gonna quit playing until we hurt their pockets and be like, hey man, we don't like what you're doing. We're not gonna buy your stuff, then it's not gonna happen.
And you know.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (51:00.387)
But the problem with that is there's always going to be those people that are still going to play that game and ruin everything. Like I don't know how many times people go, we're going to boycott this game. You are, you are, you are. And then the game comes out and there's like millions of people planning. Yep. That boycott worked out well. What was it? star blade. We're going to boycott this because you censored the game. Okay. Boycott it. What happened? games doing well guys. It didn't, it didn't get boycotted whatsoever. So,
Junae (51:04.926)
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (51:30.115)
Alright, sure, whatever.
Junae (51:30.393)
Yeah, they did that with the Harry Potter game, a Harry Potter coming out with a cottage game, so.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (51:35.523)
That was a damn shame. That game was great. Harry Potter was great.
Junae (51:42.686)
boy. Okay, this is a section of the podcast where we talk about a hot take. So usually I have conversations before the podcast with guests and y 'all don't get to see those because those be our conversations. And then I usually just take a piece of it as blackmail and then I bring it in. And who ever thought of the name blackmail? I don't like it because we have blacklisting and whitelisting and frankly, it's racist. That wasn't the hot take. That's just true. So.
I was gonna ask you because everyone has heard about like the debate and you know, DJT being like immune from stuff just because he was like the president of America, well, the United States, right? And we were talking about how like Bill Clinton got like shamed out of office because he slept with somebody and his infidelity really wasn't our business, but we made it our business. And I pointed out that
the more obvious you try to make it to help a minority, the more scrutinized you're gonna get. And so, you know, everyone's talking about like where they're gonna go, when they like, when, you know, DJT gets like elected again. And I have a question for you since you were telling me that your spouse is from the Caribbean. And I think about this all the time, but it would be good to get a opinion from someone else.
So my question is, with your spouse being from the Caribbean and you as African American, Black American, do you feel more ties to America because Black people built it versus someone who came and gets to experience the Black history, which is American history? So are you more willing to leave or are you more willing to be like, we really need to
help fix what we built before they tear it down.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (53:39.939)
I have no ties to this country. I was born here. That's literally it. My ties have all been ripped away. My mother's gone, my father's gone. I have zero ties here. Outside of my wife and my kids, that is it. And as I mentioned, I am not a fan of...
the way politics are in this country and not just because of what's happening with Trump, politics in general, politics in general are just, they're going the wrong way. The Democrats are going the wrong way. The Republicans are going the wrong way. But the fact that we're allowing a known felon to run for the presidency for president chair, despite all the stuff that he's done and people are like, yeah, we're going to vote for this guy. Like this guy has shown you that he is slime and you literally don't care. He's showing you that he's racist.
that he's a bigot, that he doesn't care about you, he doesn't care about certain people, he doesn't care about your livelihood. He's only here to get in the presidency and go, I run the country. He literally said he would turn this country into a dictatorship and that doesn't trouble people? That's cool. And then we got the Supreme Court going, he's immune to the stuff he does while he's in office. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. What? As you mentioned, Bill Clinton got a blow job.
Nah, we gotta get rid of him. He gotta get out of there. Homie What he did is with him and his wife None of your business. No, he's got to go Okay this guy
gave out secrets to the country. He had secrets at his resort scattered everywhere. This guy has that hush money scandal and Lord knows whatever else he's got going on and we want him to be the president again. I'm sorry, what? This is the guy who fall tooth no and kept saying Obama wasn't American. I need to see your birth certificate.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (55:53.347)
But, you know, we want him as the president now. And meanwhile, we got the Democrats with Biden, which, ugh, Biden, my God. My dude, ugh.
Junae (56:06.494)
It's really hard because people, you know, they will use this as like a re like they use this as reasoning, like go with the devil that you know, or we could not pick a devil at all. I don't know. Like it's just, you know, there are other people on the ballot. I think. What's his name? Andrew Yang. Why did people hate him again? He did something that was weird, though. I can't remember what he did. He did do like a weird thing, but, you know.
I think people are getting the ick a bit way too easily with some candidates and not getting enough ick with others. So that's, that's always interesting. I think we need to, I know that a lot of presidencies have been based on like charisma and who people think is like a handsome and like a good face. And I think we need to go back to the olden days.
and listen to the debates on radio and make a decision. So we can really hear what people are saying. We really need to hear what people are saying to, yeah, and not get upset about golf or something.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (57:12.515)
We need to actually have a debate, an actual debate, not this mud slinging garbage. This is, that wasn't a debate. I don't know what that, that was like two kids on a playground. That was not a debate. That was terrible. bite laws. Well, what's in the debate? Yo, here's a respectable debate. We're having the conversation. You say your piece. I say my piece. You shut up while I'm talking.
Junae (57:21.534)
Yeah. Facts.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (57:40.003)
And while you're talking, I shut up. It doesn't make a difference if I want to say something. It's not your turn. You wait, then I go. Then you go. Then I go.
Junae (57:47.518)
And also, we should probably be talking about the question that was asked and not what we want to talk about, right? Like these questions are developed for a reason. And I feel like to you, I was watching the.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (57:53.827)
Exactly.
Junae (58:01.438)
Colorado debate and the guy who was asking the questions, I can't remember his name, but he was so spot on. He was like, so that wasn't the question. And he was like, are you gonna answer the question? And he was like, okay, let's go to the next person. And he was being like really, really harsh because you know, people were just like, I love America. And it was like, sis, that wasn't a question though. Like, answer the questions were developed for a reason. These are issues. These are things people want to know about. And you know, you're just, you're saying the thing that people, you know, that's emotional.
You're not saying... Anyways, I, like we said, right? Like this.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (58:35.011)
Yeah, I was going to say let's get back to what we were saying. So I don't have any ties here. I would leave if all the pieces fell in place, like, you know, finding a job, making sure that we could find a home, making sure everything we have here is sold off that we can't take with us. Then yes, obviously I talk to that. I talk about that with my wife all the time and I go, yeah, there's something that's going to miss like, you know, high speed internet, having access to certain stores.
and things of that nature. So it definitely would be a big change in my life. But at the same time, if I can go somewhere that doesn't have a messed up government system, has access to decent healthcare that doesn't charge me an arm and a leg, and I can live out the rest of my days fine, I have no problems. I'd be out, gone. No hesitation, none.
Junae (59:31.646)
everybody's answer, right? But I think not saying that you are looking for like the easy way to do this, because I think there's no easy way to like pack up your stuff and leave. And I think everyone shares that sentiment, but they want it to be a bit more certain. But I think if even if you move, if you move from city to city, block to block, it's not going to be anything certain about it.
not advocating for people. People should do what makes them feel safe if that doesn't impede on other people's rights.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (01:00:03.075)
If the fact that people are saying that they don't want to be in this country anymore because they're worried about the political climate, that should send a warning or a signal to the people who are running these countries that, you know, this is ridiculous. We should have to fight about who's in charge and taking away certain people's rights and who can do what and this person is immune to XYZ and...
It's just everything. It's just everything that's happening. I get so frustrated. My wife was right now, she'd be like, stop talking about politics, because she sees me and I'm literally getting mad. I'm getting frustrated and I'm getting loud. She's like, just relax, just calm down, because it's just ridiculous. It's the same stuff over and over and over. the Supreme Court has said that women don't have access to their body. What?
Who the hell said it was their right to tell a woman what they can and cannot do with their body? What? They're denying access to contraceptives. I'm sorry, what? Why is it their right?
Junae (01:01:16.606)
It's very weird. It's very weird and it's very racially motivated. You know, I learned that's why America doesn't have like public health care, like not completely free health care, but it's because they told, they were like, if we have health care, then black people will have health care and they'll continue to live. But if we don't have like,
public, like affordable healthcare, then Black people will die off and then we can have our country back. So like, eventually we'll have free healthcare. So...
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (01:01:54.595)
I've had a conversation like that before and that makes me mad because it's like, you know, one, you brought the black people over here. Two, you seem to forget that you are also...
immigrants to this country as well. This was not your country. Yeah.
Junae (01:02:11.294)
they're the immigrants that own people, right? Isn't that what non -black immigrants are like? Yeah, like non -black immigrants are not black American immigrants, because even some black immigrants don't like black Americans, and like I've seen it happen.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (01:02:24.707)
my God. my God. I know a couple of Africans and I spoke to a couple of Africans and my family member is married to an African and they don't like us very much. Holy crap.
Junae (01:02:39.838)
Yeah, it's a thing, you know, it's a thing and part of it, they feel that, you know, black Americans have like squandered, like this opportunity when in reality, they're telling all other people who come here that they're not black, right? Don't be like the black people don't be like the black people. And sometimes that's hard to distinguish from like Africans, right? Africans, Africans, American, or like Caribbean and American, like people who are not like non American black people.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (01:03:08.675)
We got this whole thing of different types of blackness in this country. And it's just like, wow, don't call me black, but you're black. Don't call me black.
Junae (01:03:14.142)
That's very true.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (01:03:21.827)
Okay. Okay.
Junae (01:03:24.158)
Yeah, no, it's a hard pill to swallow, you know. Anywho, you did, you did, you did. And I am going to thank you for being on the podcast, because we was about to go into it. And it's not that I don't think it's related for Gaming for the Culture, it's that we'll be here for six hours. So.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (01:03:32.419)
Did I answer that question?
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (01:03:47.267)
I get all the time in the world. Right now and I do.
Junae (01:03:51.902)
Yeah, right. Look, you know, it's so interesting because I never got I haven't gotten a chance to post the video yet, but I went to Comic Con and Nolan North was there and he was like, right now I'm unemployed. And I was like, unemployment. And then I got to talk to him later. And I was like, you know, sometimes your best work comes out of being unemployed. And he was like, yeah. And now they just announced Uncharted three. I was like, don't play with me because you're you're as long as Uncharted is doing something, you have a job at least.
contract you have some type of something so yeah you know we do our best work. If only I was him.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (01:04:28.163)
If only I was him, I would not care. Right? I would not care about unemployed. I'll get something eventually.
Junae (01:04:36.382)
Eventually, you know what, but even if we're not Noland North, that's always the case. We'll get something eventually. Like I was talking on LinkedIn about how I started my consulting business and the whole reason why I started my consulting business. And I don't think I'm like special or that anyone else I want to be a one stop shop for small and medium businesses. Right. So instead of going to somebody to do social, somebody to do marketing, someone to do like data analytics, I do it. I do it all. Like, you know,
like, not me, but like, I have people who like help that come true instead of, you know, you having to contact so many people. And I think that is always our biggest hurdle in entrepreneurship, which comes out of unemployment, right? Like you really only have one to two options with unemployment. Like, especially if we're talking about the economy how it is now, it's like, I'm just going to be entrepreneur. And it's like, yeah, Buki, you really have a choice. Like, nobody's really, you know.
hiring, like that's what you have to do. And so that's
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (01:05:38.979)
Yeah, you got to figure out what you got to do. I was looking at that because obviously I'm getting, I don't work anymore. So, you know, there's a lot of stuff out there that you actually can do until you actually find a full -time gig. And maybe, maybe you just don't find a full -time gig because you don't want to anymore. There's other things to keep you afloat.
Junae (01:05:56.862)
Yeah, and you know, if anybody is listening and that is your situation right now, I really hope that you find the thing that keeps you afloat and that you like. That was a banger of a rhyme though. That was a bar for sure. But yeah, I hope that. And Keith, thank you so much for talking to us and sharing your experience and talking about Otter Haven. And if anybody wants to find Keith, definitely look him up on Twitter and otterhaven .com.
And if you want to be a game journalist and you're not, and you're going to do the work, yeah, you know, you know where to find him. And until next time, I got to stop saying and so let me wrap this up until.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (01:06:38.659)
I'm going to correct you real quick. Unfortunately, we're only, we're the outerhaven .net. We don't have .com because somebody squattered it and they went $10 ,000 to get it back.
Junae (01:06:42.718)
.NET
Junae (01:06:51.134)
outerhaven .net, outerhaven .net y 'all. Okay. And I gotta stop saying it until next time. Be safe, wash your hands, be kind, game safely, fight the patriarchy, fight the gaming industry, fight normalcy. And I will talk to y 'all next episode. Bye bye.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (01:06:53.187)
Miss me with that.
Keith Dwayne Mitchell (01:07:16.035)
Take care.