How to Rebuild Intimacy in Long-Term Relationships: Caitlin V on Sex, Hormones, Communication & Connection

What does it really take to keep intimacy alive after years together? In this episode of hol+, Dr. Taz sits down with Caitlin V, sexologist, educator, coach, author, and host of Good Sex, for a candid conversation about sex, connection, hormones, communication, and the relationship patterns that quietly shape long-term intimacy.

Together, they explore why many couples start to feel disconnected over time, especially through the pressures of marriage, parenting, midlife, stress, changing bodies, shifting hormones, and unspoken resentment. Caitlin explains why intimacy is not something couples are simply supposed to “know how to do,” and why learning to talk about sex, desire, needs, and repair can completely change the direction of a relationship.

Dr. Taz and Caitlin also discuss the role of men’s health, testosterone, cortisol, perimenopause, menopause, performance pressure, emotional shutdown, and the invisible load that many women carry. They unpack why both men and women can check out of a relationship, how resentment builds, and why emotional distance is often one of the earliest signs that a couple needs support.

This conversation offers a grounded and hopeful look at how couples can rebuild closeness, not through pressure or blame, but through communication, curiosity, physical connection, appreciation, and a willingness to keep learning each other.

If you’re listening to this and thinking, “I know something is off in my body, but I don’t know where to start,” join the Circle here: 👉 https://holplus.co/circle

Intimacy is not only about sex. It is shaped by hormones, nervous system stress, emotional safety, communication patterns, body changes, desire, identity, and the way partners repair after disconnection. In this episode, Dr. Taz and Caitlin look at intimacy as a vital part of health and partnership, especially during midlife and beyond.

Learn more about support related to this conversation:
Hormone Balancing: https://holplus.co/services/hormone-balancing/
Menopause & Perimenopause: https://holplus.co/conditions/menopause-perimenopause/
Men’s Health: https://holplus.co/services/mens-health/

Caitlin shares why sex often changes after the early years of a relationship, why many couples wait too long to talk about what is not working, and why resentment can become one of the biggest barriers to desire. She also explains how scheduled intimacy, honest repair conversations, non-sexual touch, and simple practices of appreciation can help couples reconnect before disconnection becomes the norm.

Dr. Taz and Caitlin also explore the pressures men often face around masculinity, performance, sexual confidence, and providing, as well as the ways women can support connection without shrinking themselves or taking on all the emotional labor. The result is a more balanced conversation about how both partners can participate in rebuilding intimacy together.

If you are navigating changes in desire, emotional distance, midlife hormone shifts, stress, resentment, communication breakdowns, or the feeling that your relationship needs more intentional care, this episode offers language, perspective, and practical tools to begin repairing connection.

About The Guest:
Caitlin V is a sexologist, educator, coach, author, and host focused on helping people build greater confidence, connection, and satisfaction in their sex lives. She is the author of Harder, Better, Longer, Stronger: The Science, Skills and Secrets for the Best Sex of Your Life and the host of Good Sex, a television series on HBO Max where she works

About Dr. Taz:
Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz) is a triple board-certified integrative medicine physician,
bestselling author, and founder of hol+ a multi-location integrative medicine practice.
Learn more: https://doctortaz.com/about

Stay Connected:

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Get your copy of The Hormone Shift: Balance Your Body and Thrive Through Midlife and Menopause

Connect with Caitlin V
https://caitlinvneal.com/
https://www.instagram.com/Caitlinvictoriousx/
https://www.youtube.com/@CaitlinV

Host & Production Team

Host: Dr. Taz; Produced by ClipGrowth.com (Producer: Pat Gostek)

Chapters
00:00 Why Intimacy Changes in Long-Term Relationships
06:11 Why Modern Relationships Feel More Complicated
10:31 The 2-Year, 4-Year, and 7-Year Relationship Patterns
16:31 Hormones, Midlife, and Relationship Connection
19:25 Men’s Health, Confidence, and Performance Pressure
23:03 Resentment, Distance, and Relationship Warning Signs
29:38 How Couples Can Reconnect and Repair
35:00 Stress, Cortisol, and the Invisible Load
44:25 Moving From Pressure to Connection
55:00 Communication, Desire, and Lasting Intimacy

Creators and Guests

Host

Dr. Taz Bhatia MD

Dr. Taz Bhatia is a triple-board-certified integrative medicine physician and founder of hol+, where she brings together science, spirit and the human experience to deliver holistic, whole-person care.

Producer

Pat Gostek

Founder of ClipGrowth.com - End-to-End YouTube, Podcast & Clips Management (you just record).

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hol+ with Dr. Taz MD is redefining modern medicine through a comprehensive, evidence-based holistic approach; integrating functional medicine, integrative medicine, and time-tested healing systems to treat the whole human, not just symptoms.

Hosted by Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz), triple board-certified physician in integrative, functional, and holistic medicine, bestselling Penguin Random House author, and founder of hol+; a comprehensive evidence-based holistic medicine platform with clinics in Atlanta, New York City, and Los Angeles, and virtual care available nationwide.

At the heart of hol+ is a revolutionary framework: the Five Body Map- physical, mental, emotional, energetic, and social/community bodies that create whole health. This whole-human approach connects hormone imbalances, gut dysfunction, microinflammation, cortisol dysregulation, metabolic disease, autoimmune conditions, perimenopause, and stress-driven illness to the full spectrum of who we are; body, mind, and spirit.

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Topics include hormone health, gut health, GLP-1 and metabolic therapy, thyroid dysfunction, weight loss, inflammation, autoimmune disease, mental and emotional wellness, energetic health, and the future of holistic medicine.

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This is medicine beyond the exam room. Welcome to hol+

[00:00:00] Caitlin V: Most of us have gotten the impression or have been taught that sex is just supposed to work and be easy. You [00:00:05] just close the door- Right ... shut off the lights, and it just works, right? Right. It doesn't just work, you know? [00:00:10] And it's okay that we have to learn how to make it work. Mm-hmm. Just like it's okay that [00:00:15] we have to be taught how to drive.
[00:00:16] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. That we don't all come out as master chefs. For most folks- Right ... there's [00:00:20] no, like, internal dialogue of like, "I should just know how to cook." Right. Right? And yet we expect that because sex is something that our [00:00:25] bodies do naturally, which by the way they sleep and they digest naturally too, but we still learn about those things- [00:00:30] Right
[00:00:30] Caitlin V: uh, that we can't apply the, that same template onto sex and sexuality.
[00:00:34] Dr. Taz: Caitlin [00:00:35] V is a sexologist, an educator, a coach, and author focused on helping [00:00:40] people build greater confidence, connection, and satisfaction in their sex [00:00:45] lives. Her new book, Harder, Better, Longer, Stronger, is an evidence-based guide [00:00:50] for men who want to improve sexual confidence, reduce performance pressure, and [00:00:55] build stronger intimacy and connection.
[00:00:57] Caitlin V: We have today put more [00:01:00] weight and expectation onto our romantic partners than people of previous [00:01:05] generations. So our romantic partner is not just supposed to be the person that we raise children with or build a [00:01:10] life with, but they're also supposed to be a best friend. We often are mistaken in thinking that we're the w- [00:01:15] we're the only ones that are dealing with this- Mm
[00:01:16] Caitlin V: or our challenges are unique, when actually they're very [00:01:20] common. And we lead to people thinking that it's, like, maybe them or their individual relationship that is [00:01:25] the problem or- That is so true. Yeah ... and it, it's not true. Mm-hmm. And these things are, like, highly workable, [00:01:30] highly navigable. Solvable. Yeah.
[00:01:32] Caitlin V: Yeah. But, but we actually have to be willing to do the work to [00:01:35] do it. And I always tell people, you know, "You're gonna be the same person in your next [00:01:40] relationship. So consider if it is really this relationship that isn't working or if it there's something that, like, [00:01:45] you want to really examine internally first.
[00:01:47] Caitlin V: Whether or not you end your 20-year marriage- Right ... [00:01:50] uh, is secondary to what can you as a, as an individual grow from this [00:01:55] experience."
[00:01:55] Dr. Taz: She's also the host of Good Sex, a television series in which she works with couples on [00:02:00] intimacy and sexual challenges, and she has built a large digital audience through [00:02:05] her educational content around relationships, communication, pleasure, and sexual [00:02:10] wellbeing.
[00:02:10] Dr. Taz: Please join me in welcoming Caitlin V to the
[00:02:13] Caitlin V: show. This episode is sponsored [00:02:15] by holplus, a holistic health platform built around education, [00:02:20] personalization,
[00:02:20] Dr. Taz: and integrative care. holplus blends holistic, integrative, and functional [00:02:25] medicine clinics with learning resources like blogs, YouTube videos, and of course this [00:02:30] podcast, so you're not just treated, you're informed.
[00:02:33] Dr. Taz: The platform also includes [00:02:35] holistic health quizzes and a curated wellness shop, helping you make choices that support your [00:02:40] body at the root level. holplus is holistic healthcare designed [00:02:45] for real life. Visit
[00:02:46] Caitlin V: us at holplus.co to learn more about the [00:02:50] platform. Again, that's H-O-L-P-L-U-S dot C-O.
[00:02:54] Dr. Taz: We have needed you on the [00:02:55] show for a really long time, Kaitlyn, so we're glad you're here.
[00:02:58] Dr. Taz: I think that you have an [00:03:00] area of expertise that people are either uncomfortable talking about or wanna brush under the [00:03:05] cover, or they're talking about it and kinda getting nowhere with it. So we're gonna talk about sex [00:03:10] on this episode. We're gonna talk about men and women, and but we're gonna focus a little bit [00:03:15] on men's health- Mm-hmm
[00:03:16] Dr. Taz: and what that means for them. Because for them, and for us [00:03:20] too, it, it's a vital sign and something to- Mm-hmm ... really pay attention to. And, you know, as m- as many [00:03:25] conversations as I've had around health, I don't think I've had that many around sex, so this is probably long- [00:03:30] Thank you ... overdue, right? Well, I'm,
[00:03:31] Caitlin V: I'm honored to be the person.
[00:03:32] Dr. Taz: Yes, you are the person. Thank you for having me. You are, you are the [00:03:35] chosen person to guide us through, like, this whole, whole, uh, terrain here. All right. So [00:03:40] I am, you know, in my, uh, early 50s, and [00:03:45] I've had some time, right, and some mileage to really observe patients and [00:03:50] their relationships, my own relationship, those of my friends.
[00:03:53] Dr. Taz: And there's been a lot of [00:03:55] ebbing and flowing is probably the best way to describe it, right? We've watched so many people around [00:04:00] us get divorced. Mm-hmm. We've watched, you know, relationships turn in a different [00:04:05] direction. We've seen people battle all kinds of, you know, [00:04:10] conditions, whether they're physical or mental or, uh, or, you know, whatever it might be.
[00:04:14] Dr. Taz: And so it's [00:04:15] interesting as people continue to talk about things like marriage and [00:04:20] relationships, and even if they wanna be in one, you know, how [00:04:25] this idea of sex and intimacy plays into the relationship. Because, you know, [00:04:30] a lot of the chatter that I'm hearing for the younger generation that's watching the older generations, [00:04:35] AKA me, and, you know, my peers, is that, "Well, all these people are getting divorced, [00:04:40] so what's the point of being in a committed relationship?
[00:04:43] Dr. Taz: You know, I can just have sex [00:04:45] with whoever, whenever I want to, and, and that's the end of the story." Mm-hmm. So I'm really [00:04:50] curious from the work that you've done- And I promise we will talk about men, but I'm, I'm just curious [00:04:55] when we first think about family and we think about, you know, uh, [00:05:00] the health of a family.
[00:05:01] Dr. Taz: I've been spending a lot of time in my head, by the way, uh, thinking about [00:05:05] something called the family body or what is the health- Mm ... of the entire unit- Mm-hmm ... right? When we, [00:05:10] when we think about that, you know, intimacy is important because a lack of [00:05:15] intimacy often leads to disconnection or to, you know, maybe even to other behaviors.
[00:05:19] Dr. Taz: I don't know. Yeah. I, I don't [00:05:20] know what the research says. So help fill us in on what's going on on some of these [00:05:25] relationships that have existed for a long period of time, right? They're passing, you know, the two-year [00:05:30] mark, and then the five-year mark, and then the seven-year mark, and now we're into year 20.
[00:05:34] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. And you know, and in [00:05:35] fact, I was joking with somebody. I was like, "You know, the more I observe and look around, are marriages really only [00:05:40] supposed to last for 20 years and then you're out?" Like, is that, is that what's happening? [00:05:45] Because that's the phase of life that we're in right now where our children are, like, 17 and 18, and you're just [00:05:50] seeing, like, it's almost like a battlefield.
[00:05:52] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Like, all these, like, yeah, like, you know, we're [00:05:55] gonna go our separate ways. Mm-hmm. And it's kind of this, like, 20-ish year scenario going on. So [00:06:00] help us with understanding what's happening there.
[00:06:02] Caitlin V: Mm. Big loaded question. [00:06:05] Yes. There's so much to unpack there
[00:06:06] Dr. Taz: because- I know ... I think- I've, I've, I overdid it there.
[00:06:08] Dr. Taz: No,
[00:06:08] Caitlin V: that's good. But go wherever you wanna go [00:06:10] with that. We, we, we'll touch on all of it.
[00:06:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:06:11] Caitlin V: But you know, the, if you, if you just watch the news- Yeah ... social [00:06:15] media, like, population- Right ... level, what's going on, it feels extremely fraught right now. Right. On, on [00:06:20] every level, every generation. The, uh, people who are growing up now who are in their early 20s are reporting [00:06:25] having less sex- Right
[00:06:26] Caitlin V: than any previous generation. Uh, the number- What's up with that? ... of men and [00:06:30] women who have not had sex in the last year has gone up significantly. Um, I think there's, [00:06:35] there's so many factors to it. I mean, you touched on some of it, right? Yeah. Which is this sort of sense of hopelessness [00:06:40] around long-term commitment and marriage, these things that were maybe promised, that most of us [00:06:45] assumed that we would experience in our life, and we're seeing those, uh, uh, m- [00:06:50] That we're seeing th- those things not happen- Right
[00:06:52] Caitlin V: and not be able to withstand time, uh, for the people who are [00:06:55] older. And then for the, the folks who are younger, they're also inundated with [00:07:00] expectations that they've been fed on social media. They're l- living through the age of dating apps- Mm-hmm ... and, and they're [00:07:05] navigating the complexity of meeting people online, which human beings are not built to do.
[00:07:09] Caitlin V: Mm-mm. Right? No. [00:07:10] Uh, and, and then they, they also have, like, other factors that are influencing them as well. Their [00:07:15] alcohol drinking is down, for example. Mm-hmm. Like, that was a way that a lot of people of older generations, it m- generation [00:07:20] included, like, lowered inhibitions- Right, right ... and had early sexual experiences.
[00:07:24] Caitlin V: They lived through the [00:07:25] pandemic. Their skills in terms of dating and flirting and feeling safe and comfortable and [00:07:30] navigating rejection- Yeah ... and navigating these things, and then they have financial and economic concerns as [00:07:35] well. So there are, there are so many things stacked up against dating and relationships.
[00:07:39] Caitlin V: But [00:07:40] specifically for those folks who are maybe, like, 35 and older, or the folks who have had maybe a 20-year [00:07:45] relationship, Esther Perel actually has this- Yeah ... uh, phenomenal- Yeah ... theory on relationships, and she sort [00:07:50] of says that you have three marriages over the course of your life. You have sort of, like, your youngest- Right
[00:07:54] Caitlin V: [00:07:55] first marriage where, uh, you're have- you have young children and you navigate that. You also have, like, young love and, you [00:08:00] know- Yeah ... your, your, your hormones are different during that time. Then you have your second marriage where your children are maturing [00:08:05] and becoming adults and maybe, like, uh, getting ready to leave the nest.
[00:08:08] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. And then you have your last marriage, which [00:08:10] is, uh, after your children have left the nest and, um, and you're more mature in what you want and what you [00:08:15] desire. And some people have all three marriages with the same person.
[00:08:18] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:08:19] Caitlin V: Some have three [00:08:20] different... And it doesn't mean that you're legally married, right?
[00:08:22] Caitlin V: Right. Some folks have multiple significant relationships, sometimes [00:08:25] two that vary those spans. But I think that's a helpful, uh, framework- Right ... to [00:08:30] examine what's going on. Absolutely,
[00:08:31] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[00:08:31] Caitlin V: And I think that on top of all of this, we have [00:08:35] today put more weight and expectation onto our romantic [00:08:40] partners than people of previous generations.
[00:08:41] Caitlin V: So our romantic partner is not just supposed to be the [00:08:45] person that we raise children with or build a life with, but they're also supposed to be a best friend, our primary social [00:08:50] contact. Mm-hmm. Uh, they're, we're supposed to have hot and spicy and passionate sex over the course of, you know, [00:08:55] decades- Mm-hmm
[00:08:55] Caitlin V: even though no one taught us how to do that- Right ... or what our expectations would be. Right. And because [00:09:00] across the board, we don't have really nuanced conversations about sex and sexuality, both with our [00:09:05] immediate peers and, uh, uh, as a, as on a population level- Right ... then [00:09:10] we often are mistaken in thinking that we're the o- we're the only ones that are dealing with this- Mm
[00:09:14] Caitlin V: or our challenges [00:09:15] are unique, when actually they're, they're very common.
[00:09:18] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:09:18] Caitlin V: But we lack [00:09:20] the language and the education for how to navigate them as they come up. So you have the [00:09:25] combination of expectations that can't be met, a lack of awareness and a, and a, and [00:09:30] a lack of situational awareness regarding, like, um, how common the challenges that we're facing [00:09:35] are, and we lead to people thinking that it's, like, maybe them or their individual relationship [00:09:40] that is the problem or- It is
[00:09:41] Dr. Taz: so
[00:09:41] Caitlin V: true, yeah
[00:09:41] Caitlin V: and it, it's not true. Mm-hmm. And these things are, like, highly workable, [00:09:45] highly- navigable
[00:09:46] Dr. Taz: Solvable.
[00:09:47] Caitlin V: Yeah Yeah. But, but we actually have to be willing to do [00:09:50] the work to do it. And I always tell people, you know, "You're gonna be the same person in your [00:09:55] next relationship. So consider if it is really this relationship that isn't working, or if it there's [00:10:00] something that, like, you want to really examine internally first.
[00:10:02] Caitlin V: Whether or not you end your 20-year [00:10:05] marriage- Right ... uh, is secondary to what can you as a, as an individual grow from [00:10:10] this experience?"
[00:10:10] Dr. Taz: Well, what are we missing? You know, like, what are, what are folks missing in the, [00:10:15] you know, course of a marriage or in the course of any relationship, right, as time goes on?[00:10:20]
[00:10:20] Dr. Taz: You know, we know that that initial passionate flare is, like, two years- Mm-hmm ... or so, right? Is that right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Is that what the [00:10:25] science says? I mean, that, that's what our biology- It's about two years ... our biology is like two years. Yeah. And then after two years, [00:10:30] maybe it settles a bit, right?
[00:10:31] Dr. Taz: Well,
[00:10:31] Caitlin V: there's actually... So there's three important drop-offs. Okay. There's two... There's around two years, [00:10:35] around four years, and around seven, eight years.
[00:10:36] Dr. Taz: Okay, so the seven-year thing is a
[00:10:38] Caitlin V: thing. The seven-year thing is a thing. [00:10:40] Oh, wow. Well, and, and it is because if you think about it evolutionarily, the, the best thing that could happen for, for our species, [00:10:45] for our DNA- Right
[00:10:45] Caitlin V: is that it remixes as many times as possible, right? Okay. Because you have one [00:10:50] child with one person, that's one unique set of, of combination of factors. Right. But if you [00:10:55] have, had two children with two different people, uh, biologically as a species, like, that, that [00:11:00] generates more unique combinations. It's better for us.
[00:11:02] Caitlin V: So we evolved, m- more likely than [00:11:05] not, to mate with multiple people over the course of our lives. Mm. And now we live in a, a system that [00:11:10] doesn't promote that. Mm-hmm. Uh, and in fact, there's quite a bit of shame around that- Right ... even today.
[00:11:13] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:11:14] Caitlin V: Uh, and so [00:11:15] we're, we, we've built- structures that don't [00:11:20] support our- Natural bio-
[00:11:21] Caitlin V: natural inclinations ... biology, yeah And this, uh, n- neither is right nor wrong. Right. It's just a [00:11:25] matter of, like, understanding that we're, we are working against our biology staying in relationships [00:11:30] for longer periods of time. We work against our biology all day, every day. Right. I was looking at screens [00:11:35] until 11:00 PM- Right
[00:11:36] Caitlin V: last night. Exactly. My biology was screaming- Right ... at me, like- You know, what am I doing? ... my eyes [00:11:40] hurt, my back hurts. Why am I still sitting here? Yeah, yeah. Right? So it's not that we can't do that. Right. It's just that if we're not... We [00:11:45] know, I mean, today especially, like the impact of blue light- Right ... and these glasses that [00:11:50] we can wear.
[00:11:50] Caitlin V: Right.
[00:11:50] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:11:51] Caitlin V: But we don't do the same thing with sex and sexuality. So two years is about the time [00:11:55] that it takes to find a person, mate with them, and raise a child to the point where [00:12:00] they're not extremely dependent on both parents all the time, right? Right. And so there's a natural [00:12:05] drop-off internally around that time, just in our, uh, biochemistry.
[00:12:08] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:12:09] Caitlin V: If we were to, [00:12:10] if we chose to have a second child with them, that drop-off would happen around the four-year mark, and then that, the [00:12:15] final drop-off happens around the eight-year mark. That is when our, our chemistry is no [00:12:20] longer really supporting us- Uh-huh ... staying in this relationship in the way that [00:12:25] we're familiar with it, in the way that I think we've been taught to expect it.
[00:12:28] Caitlin V: Mm. And so after around the [00:12:30] eight-year mark, we have to be really conscientious about the choices that we make in terms of [00:12:35] staying in and stabilizing the relationship. And then adding on top of that, I think this is a really [00:12:40] important factor, th- most of us have gotten the impression, or have been taught, or [00:12:45] just picked up by cultural osmosis, that sex is just supposed to work and be easy, right?
[00:12:49] Caitlin V: [00:12:50] If you love someone- You have chemistry ... if you're meant to be together- Right ... then you just close the door- [00:12:55] Right ... shut off the lights, and it just works. Right. Right? It doesn't just work, you know? And it's [00:13:00] okay that we have to learn how to make it work and how to make that continue to be a [00:13:05] rewarding part of our relationship.
[00:13:06] Caitlin V: Mm. Just like it's okay that we have to be taught how to drive. Mm-hmm. That we don't [00:13:10] all come out as master chefs. Right. We have to consult recipe books, right? Right. But no one shames you for learning a [00:13:15] new recipe. There's, there... For most folks- Right ... there's no, like, internal dialogue of, like, "I should just know how to cook."[00:13:20]
[00:13:20] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:13:20] Caitlin V: Right? And yet we expect that because sex is something that our bodies do naturally, which by the way, they sleep and they [00:13:25] digest naturally too, but we still learn about those things- Right ... uh, that we can't apply that, that [00:13:30] same template onto sex and sexuality.
[00:13:32] Dr. Taz: What's happening... Okay, so you have the [00:13:35] eight-year drop-off, and then if you don't It sounds like there's work, and we'll talk [00:13:40] about work in just a minute
[00:13:40] Dr. Taz: But if you're not doing the work or not aware- Mm-hmm ... maybe just [00:13:45] not aware of what's happening, like what, what happens next? What's sort of like the [00:13:50] evolution- Mm ... as you move forward into a decade of marriage- Yeah ... or two decades of [00:13:55] marriage? Like, what's, what's going on?
[00:13:56] Caitlin V: I mean, my, my own first marriage, first relationship lasted eight [00:14:00] years.
[00:14:00] Dr. Taz: Oh, wow.
[00:14:00] Caitlin V: Okay. And, uh, inside of that, you know, when we no longer have the, the, [00:14:05] the internal state that is supportive of that relationship, I think it can [00:14:10] become more difficult, which it wasn't in my situation, my relationship- Yeah ... to ignore the [00:14:15] areas of like misalignment- Yes ... value misalignment, lifestyle misalignment, the areas that like [00:14:20] when we had sort of that, uh, that, that internal chemistry going for us were a little easier to [00:14:25] ignore.
[00:14:25] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:14:25] Caitlin V: And then once that shifted- Goes away. Yeah, yeah, yeah ... yeah, we had to come to terms with the fact that like [00:14:30] actually who we were eight years ago when we met is not who we are today.
[00:14:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:14:33] Caitlin V: And our trajectories are very [00:14:35] different. Mm-hmm. And in that instance, I was very fortunate. We didn't have children together.
[00:14:38] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. We didn't own a home together. Mm-hmm. You know, we had [00:14:40] two cats- It's simple. Yeah ... so we each took one. It was very... it was, it was emotionally very difficult. Right. But in terms [00:14:45] of, uh, unpeeling our like s- financial structures and things like that, that was a little easier, [00:14:50] and we're able to maintain a friendship today.
[00:14:51] Caitlin V: I'm, I'm great friends- That's amazing ... with my ex. Yeah. And that is because we [00:14:55] worked really, really hard on- Yeah ... every single aspect- Yeah ... of our relationship, couples counseling, [00:15:00] therapy. Like, we really d- we did our individual work. We did our work together. And so at the end, we were able to say, "You know [00:15:05] what?
[00:15:05] Caitlin V: We tried everything. It's not working. Each of us would be happier on our own- Mm ... [00:15:10] finding other partners." Mm-hmm. And so we were able to split amicably. Mm-hmm. But we were fortunate because I [00:15:15] also understood what was happening. I think for a lot of folks, if you're not familiar with this or you, you [00:15:20] don't, you don't know or you're, you're navigating multiple things that are stacking up at once, like you're going through [00:15:25] perimenopause- Right
[00:15:25] Caitlin V: or menopause.
[00:15:25] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:15:26] Caitlin V: Like, he's going through his own shifts in, in his testosterone levels that start [00:15:30] decreasing when a man in his 30s. Like, there's a lot more to it than that, and it [00:15:35] requires a lot of self-awareness and a lot of compassion both for yourself and the other person in order to navigate [00:15:40] those changes with grace.
[00:15:41] Dr. Taz: If you're listening to this and thinking, "I [00:15:45] know something is off in my body, but I don't know where to start," this is for you [00:15:50] That's why I created the Circle. The Circle is my private community where [00:15:55] I and my team focus on understanding your body, from hormones and stress to [00:16:00] metabolic health and longevity, with real-life guidance that you can actually use.[00:16:05]
[00:16:05] Dr. Taz: This is about clarity and consistency and support beyond the exam [00:16:10] room, and maybe outside of all the different appointments and experts that you've been running around [00:16:15] to. You can try the Circle with a one-month trial using the promo code [00:16:20] podcast at holplus.co/circle. Again, that's Whole Plus,
[00:16:24] Caitlin V: [00:16:25] holplus.co/circle.
[00:16:29] Caitlin V: All right, let's [00:16:30] jump back into the episode.
[00:16:31] Dr. Taz: Well, I was telling you before we started how, uh, you know, when The Hormone [00:16:35] Shift, which came out in 2023, I was... I don't know, I went down a rabbit hole, and I was looking at, [00:16:40] you know, hormone shift timeframes and relationships and divorce [00:16:45] rates, and there was a parallel between the two, right?
[00:16:48] Dr. Taz: It was like, you know, that [00:16:50] seven year was right around kind of like early perimenopause, and then, you know, [00:16:55] the, I think the next peak in divorce rates I saw was right around year 14, 15 or so. Mm-hmm. And I could [00:17:00] be wrong, but that's when you're, like, into further meno- menopause, probably perimenopause, probably going into [00:17:05] menopause.
[00:17:05] Dr. Taz: And then the next one was kind of the year 2021, and that one was, like, when most [00:17:10] people are in menopause. Men, at the same time, we're not talking about, because they didn't have a [00:17:15] cycle. Mm-hmm. But their testosterone levels are steadily declining through this, so they're hitting [00:17:20] andropause right around 40, right?
[00:17:21] Dr. Taz: Sometimes a little bit earlier. Mm-hmm. And actually it's all shifting downwards now. But [00:17:25] they're hitting andropause right around 40 or so, and then they're also very different at 50- Mm-hmm ... [00:17:30] than they are at 40. And that friction... And I remember thinking, you know, we didn't [00:17:35] have you at the time, but I remember being like, "I bet there's a connection here- Mm-hmm
[00:17:38] Dr. Taz: between what's going on," you [00:17:40] know? So, you know, tell us what's going on. I think with women, we understand the [00:17:45] biology better.
[00:17:45] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:46] Dr. Taz: We don't talk at least enough about what's happening with men. Yeah. Can [00:17:50] you clarify that piece of this puzzle for us? Like, you know, what are men [00:17:55] experiencing? It's very easy to The pattern I see over and over [00:18:00] again is the shocked woman and the villain man.
[00:18:03] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Right? Like, the woman either [00:18:05] shocked 'cause there was an affair, shocked 'cause somebody wants to leave, shocked because they had, she had no [00:18:10] clue X, Y, and Z was happening or that there was even anything wrong, and then [00:18:15] the man just being like, "I'm out," you know? Mm-hmm. So help us with what's going on with [00:18:20] men and, you know, what we need to understand a little bit better.
[00:18:24] Dr. Taz: [00:18:25] And then the second follow-up question to that is, you know, just as women, like, how, how do we [00:18:30] start asking the right questions, you know?
[00:18:32] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, so [00:18:35] men's, uh, experience in, in their own bodies and their shifts happen more linearly than ours. Mm-hmm. [00:18:40] Ours, you know, even just- Ours are like, "Ee, ee, ee, ee, ee."
[00:18:42] Caitlin V: Yeah, yeah. Even, even as, even during our- Yeah, yeah ... our, our fertile years- Yeah, yeah ... we're like, [00:18:45] we're, we're always shifting. Right. So yes, it is a bigger shift- Right ... but we're also a little bit more familiar with [00:18:50] expecting that our bodies are going to change- Right ... because they already are changing all of the time.
[00:18:53] Caitlin V: Right. Men, that, that [00:18:55] experience can be a lot more shocking. Because after puberty they pretty much live in the same body- Right ... and [00:19:00] feel about the same, you know? At the same temperature. Obviously the... Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. Like... Well, like, and obviously, like, [00:19:05] illness and- Yeah ... and, uh, life circumstances, events, grief- Right
[00:19:08] Caitlin V: loss, job changes, uh, uh, [00:19:10] children all impact all of that. But still for a man, average man, his experience is [00:19:15] pretty consistent until it is suddenly not. Not. And it seems like all of [00:19:20] a sudden they kinda wake up and are like, "Oh, things are different." And m- [00:19:25] men, for the most part, the, we as a, as a whole treat women's sexuality as complicated- [00:19:30] Mm-hmm
[00:19:30] Caitlin V: and men's as straightforward and simple. Right. Right? Which does a great disservice to both genders. Mm-hmm. But [00:19:35] for men in particular, the disservice there is that any sort of sexual dysfunction that they're dealing with, erectile [00:19:40] dysfunction, delayed ejaculation, premature ejaculation- A loss of libido, th- [00:19:45] they tend to see that as a singular issue with them- Mm
[00:19:48] Caitlin V: that indicates that something is wrong [00:19:50] with them because their sexuality's supposed to be straightforward, right? Right. It's supposed to be easy. Right. So if it's not working, [00:19:55] it must be something that is wrong with you, even though that is not the case. And 30% of men deal with [00:20:00] premature ejaculation. The best numbers that we have are that 40% of men in their 40s start to deal with erectile [00:20:05] dysfunction- Mm
[00:20:05] Caitlin V: and it goes up from there, 50% in their 50s, 60% in their 60s, 70% in their- Wow, those are [00:20:10] high numbers. They're huge nu- They're, like, epidemic level numbers. Wow. If, if [00:20:15] 50% of men in their 50s had, you know, uh, uh, testicular [00:20:20] torsion or something- Right ... like, we would be really looking into that, right? We'd be, we'd, yes,
[00:20:22] Dr. Taz: we'd be paying attention
[00:20:23] Caitlin V: to it.
[00:20:23] Caitlin V: And on a population, [00:20:25] it's steadily our, the men's testosterone rates are- It's going down ... declining, right? Right. Yeah. Every year. Uh, a [00:20:30] man today at the age of 40 does not have as much testosterone on average as his father or his grandfather [00:20:35] had at that same age. Right. We don't fully understand exactly what is causing that.
[00:20:39] Caitlin V: There's a lot of [00:20:40] environmental factors, plastics- Right. Right ... um, hormone disruptors. It's- Cortisol. All the things. Yeah ... yeah, it could be, it's a lot [00:20:45] of things, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not as, there's no one singular fix to that. Right. Right. But the, what's happening also is that a lot of [00:20:50] men are then seeking testosterone replacement therapy- Yep
[00:20:52] Caitlin V: which can be marvelous. It can be [00:20:55] life-changing for the men who need it. But a lot of, um, prescribers are, uh, kind of like [00:21:00] freewheeling with the testosterone. Yep. So a certain number of men show up in my office going, "My testosterone is higher than it was [00:21:05] when I was in puberty. I've hit like 1,200, 1,600."
[00:21:08] Caitlin V: Eee. "It's way too high. I'm [00:21:10] having really, uh-" I have these conversations all the time ... "disturbing thoughts," right? Yeah. "And I'm thinking about [00:21:15] cheating on my wife for the first time. I've never thought about that. I'm, like, terrified by what's going on internally." And so [00:21:20] there's, there's this- Yeah ... there's this, like, other layer to navigate, right?
[00:21:22] Caitlin V: Yeah. So, so I think as a [00:21:25] whole We, you're totally right in that the narrative tends to be shocked woman, [00:21:30] villain man.
[00:21:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:21:31] Caitlin V: Men need to, as a whole, become more responsible for understanding [00:21:35] their bodies, for understanding their mental and emotional and relational aspects of [00:21:40] sexuality and of their relationships, and being, uh, advocates for themselves- Yeah
[00:21:44] Caitlin V: and for the [00:21:45] intimacy of the relationship, but in a way that is safe and grounded and from a place of, like, [00:21:50] leadership and not from a place of force or coercion or the things that we typically see- Right ... you know, men behaving [00:21:55] badly in media- Right ... right?
[00:21:55] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:21:56] Caitlin V: And, uh, uh, for, for the female partners, the [00:22:00] questions that we can be asking are, like, how is it that, uh, we are sharing the [00:22:05] responsibility for the intimacy of our relationship and allowing it to change and flex over time?[00:22:10]
[00:22:10] Caitlin V: Right. Because one of the things that breaks our structures is that we are changing, right? Yeah. We've- w- we're changing in that [00:22:15] we're maturing, we're learning, we're growing, we're- we become parents, we, we, we shift in our [00:22:20] careers. Like, we are constantly changing- Right ... inside and outside. And if we [00:22:25] built a structure around our relationship that relies on it to look or function in a very [00:22:30] specific and rigid way, then as we change, we, w- the structure is not capable [00:22:35] of bending with us- Mm
[00:22:36] Caitlin V: and bending around us. And the issue is that so much of this gets [00:22:40] repressed, we don't bring it up until it feels like it's too late. Why are we
[00:22:42] Dr. Taz: not bringing it up? Like, what's, what's going on? Like, why [00:22:45] are we not... L- let me back up for just a second before we get there. [00:22:50] Like, what are the biggest, like, warning signs you see, you know, that you would tell a [00:22:55] man or a woman, you know, that they're starting to go in danger zone when it comes to intimacy?
[00:22:59] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:23:00] What are some of the big warning signs for each?
[00:23:03] Caitlin V: I'd say that the, the [00:23:05] greatest, biggest warning sign and the thing that I would warn everyone against is when you feel resentment- [00:23:10]
[00:23:10] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:23:10] Caitlin V: towards your partner, uh, which is sort of like the, the emotional buildup of [00:23:15] feeling like things are not fair or balanced between you.
[00:23:18] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. Uh, then that is an [00:23:20] enormous red flag, and it needs to be addressed immediately. Uh, resentment is one of the greatest [00:23:25] killers of libido and desire, and it ultimately is one of the key indicators that a relationship is [00:23:30] headed in the wrong direction. Mm-hmm. And there are things that you, that lead...
[00:23:33] Caitlin V: You know, resentment doesn't come from nowhere, right? Right, right. [00:23:35] It comes from an ongoing pattern- Right ... of things and behaviors, thoughts- Right ... beliefs, et cetera. [00:23:40] Um, uh, but I would say that if you feel that, especially when it comes to your intimate life, [00:23:45] it is something that should be urgently addressed.
[00:23:47] Caitlin V: I think that it's very easy to sort of [00:23:50] sweep these things under the rug. They're very uncomfortable. We don't wanna put time aside to deal with them. [00:23:55] Mm. And we don't want... We also don't want to easily prioritize them and put time aside to, like, take [00:24:00] care of them. I mean-
[00:24:01] Dr. Taz: What are common resentments that you hear about in your work [00:24:05] from both men and women?
[00:24:06] Caitlin V: Mm, I would say that, uh, feeling that they [00:24:10] are... They, they all come down to not getting needs met. That's, I would say is the single [00:24:15] most common sort of like umbrella- Denominator, yeah ... of resentments. Okay. And it could be like, "You know, I wanna be having [00:24:20] more sex. I wanna be having different sex. I wanna be having sex that is more pleasurable for me- Yeah
[00:24:24] Caitlin V: and not [00:24:25] just pleasurable for one partner. Uh, I wanna be putting time towards our sex and [00:24:30] sexuality, and maybe my partner isn't into it." Right. Uh, there's also, you know, for [00:24:35] couples who, uh, have children, uh, navigating the time- All of that, yeah ... post children. [00:24:40] Yeah. Right? And having, like, grace and understanding and, and also we have a very limited definition of what [00:24:45] sex is, right?
[00:24:45] Caitlin V: Yeah. Even when we say that term, most people think of intercourse, right? Right, right. And actually, we [00:24:50] have... If we're willing to, like, expand that very broadly and think about eroticism and think about all the ways that we [00:24:55] can connect with another person, then it need not look just like that.
[00:24:59] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:24:59] Caitlin V: But [00:25:00] again, if we're not exposing ourselves to those ideas, if we're not putting time aside to actually be [00:25:05] intimate...
[00:25:05] Caitlin V: Like, one of the, uh, like, famous examples of a homework assignment that- Yeah ... [00:25:10] sex therapists and coaches give to our clients- Right, right ... is to schedule intimacy.
[00:25:14] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:25:14] Caitlin V: Right? [00:25:15] Like, two hours a week, and it's not intercourse time, right? It's intimate [00:25:20] time. Mm. It's time to put the phones aside. Try not to, you know, use it just to have [00:25:25] conversations, but instead, like, be physically intimate.
[00:25:27] Caitlin V: Mm. Snuggle, take a bath together. Mm. Trade [00:25:30] massages. Like, b- g- have... Engage in pillow talk. Talk about what you want and what's [00:25:35] going on and what you're afraid of, and be vulnerable with one another. But so many people meet with- Don't do that ... so [00:25:40] much resistance to that. Yeah. Like, you know, what do you mean?
[00:25:42] Caitlin V: In this world, where I'm working 40 or 80 hours a week- [00:25:45] Right, right ... and the kids have soccer practice, and I'd like to see my parents or my, my- Right ... while they're still here or, you [00:25:50] know, spend time with my neighbors or my friends, like, w- w- my faith community, like- Where am [00:25:55] I supposed to get the extra hours- So it's physical touch
[00:25:56] Caitlin V: to do that?
[00:25:57] Dr. Taz: It's physical touch, but not necessarily [00:26:00] intercourse.
[00:26:00] Caitlin V: Yes.
[00:26:00] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:26:01] Caitlin V: Yeah, and so we, we miss out on that. But, but we... in order to, like, [00:26:05] care for anything that we love that's gonna be with us long term, it requires a bit of maintenance. Nurturing, yeah. We [00:26:10] understand that our bodies re- require maintenance.
[00:26:11] Caitlin V: We understand that our homes require maintenance. But if we really [00:26:15] wanna have a great marriage, a great intimate life, a great sex life, then it does require [00:26:20] regular maintenance, and it also requires vulnerable conversations. And [00:26:25] vulnerable conversations are hard enough for folks to have- Right ... outside of the bedroom.
[00:26:29] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:26:29] Caitlin V: Right? [00:26:30] And if we don't have a framework or we're not regularly practicing sort of, like, clearing out the stuff that [00:26:35] needs to be said-
[00:26:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:26:36] Caitlin V: or when we maybe rightfully so think that our partner isn't gonna be capable of hearing [00:26:40] us or having that convers- meeting us with the conversation, then y- and we can't [00:26:45] already do that around how we're, like, we're raising our kids or paying our bills, then it's gonna be [00:26:50] way harder to have that around a subject matter that we ourselves maybe don't feel that confident discussing to [00:26:55] begin with.
[00:26:55] Dr. Taz: Hmm. How... You know, usually men get accused of not being willing to have vulnerable [00:27:00] conversations. Mm. It's usually not women. Mm-hmm. You know? I f- Is that fair? Is that a fair statement, or you don't think [00:27:05] that's fair?
[00:27:07] Caitlin V: I encourage the men who come to me for [00:27:10] coaching or are, you know, commenting on my YouTube channel to say like, "Look, chances are that your [00:27:15] partner is leading the charge for the emotional health of your relationship, and they're [00:27:20] willing to have those vulnerable conversations.
[00:27:21] Caitlin V: 'Hey, that hurt my feelings. I didn't like how we handled that.'" Right. Like, "Please don't talk [00:27:25] to my mom or my sister that way." Like- Right ... we are usually the ones that are responsible for that. Doesn't mean we're [00:27:30] always doing a great job with it. Right. Okay. But we're, we're the ones that are- We're trying.
[00:27:33] Caitlin V: Yeah ... we're trying. We're trying our best- Yeah ... and we're doing our best with it. [00:27:35] Yeah. And so I'll say to the men that follow me, "You know, if sex really matters to you, if intimacy really matters to [00:27:40] you, why don't you pick up that torch?"
[00:27:41] Dr. Taz: Mm. "
[00:27:41] Caitlin V: Why don't you learn about it? Read my book, watch my... It [00:27:45] doesn't...
[00:27:45] Caitlin V: Don't even read my stuff. Read everybody's stuff." Yeah. Right? Like, become a student of sex and [00:27:50] sexuality, of eroticism, of intimacy. If you care about it, then take care [00:27:55] of it- Yeah ... because she's probably taking care of the sort of like emotional and familial load of [00:28:00] the relationship. Right. So if this matters to
[00:28:02] Dr. Taz: you-
[00:28:03] Caitlin V: You take care of that,
[00:28:03] Dr. Taz: yeah
[00:28:03] Dr. Taz: yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:04] Caitlin V: Pick it, pick it [00:28:05] up and run it.
[00:28:06] Dr. Taz: I, I love that. So resentment's a red flag. Mm-hmm. Is there another red flag? [00:28:10]
[00:28:10] Caitlin V: You know, I think that, um, distance is a another red [00:28:15] flag. If you feel like crossing the divide between you, if the divide is growing- Mm ... more and [00:28:20] more and more-
[00:28:20] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:28:21] Caitlin V: that's another red flag, and it doesn't need to be a, um...[00:28:25]
[00:28:25] Caitlin V: It's, it's, it... I think when we're talking about any of these things, [00:28:30] like, all, all of them are things that we can approach with care. Mm-hmm. And as long as both people are interested in [00:28:35] doing
[00:28:35] Dr. Taz: it- And you're talking about emotional distance- Uh- ... not physical distance?
[00:28:37] Caitlin V: Both.
[00:28:37] Dr. Taz: Both,
[00:28:38] Caitlin V: okay. Yeah. Any kind. Like distance [00:28:40] of- Okay
[00:28:40] Caitlin V: I... The, the feeling of like, "I can't reach you."
[00:28:43] Dr. Taz: Ah. "
[00:28:43] Caitlin V: We're not spending quality [00:28:45] time together. We're not looking at each other." Yeah. "We're not putting our phones down. We're not going out to [00:28:50] have special time, just the two of us." Right. It doesn't have to be, uh, a date every single Friday night, [00:28:55] right? Right. But it could just be like, "Do I feel like I can reach you?"
[00:28:58] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:28:58] Caitlin V: Right? Um, John Gottman [00:29:00] has done, uh- Mm-hmm ... a lot, a lot of work- Mm ... around, like, the Four Horsemen- Yes ... of the Apocalypse, right? Right. And the things [00:29:05] that we, um, l- uh, look for in a relationship. But I would say that [00:29:10] distance, one person, um, being withholding or, you know, they use the term stonewalling.
[00:29:14] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. [00:29:15] I like to think about withholding as like a sort of a precursor. Yeah. Withholding is done consciously and stonewalling [00:29:20] is often done unconsciously. Mm, mm-hmm. Um, criticism, contempt, all of those things [00:29:25] are red flags. Yellow flags if you catch them early enough, but red flags that- [00:29:30] Indicate that maybe it's time to do some work on this Mm-hmm And because it is a really sensitive subject, it might [00:29:35] also be appropriate to call in a professional.
[00:29:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah. I think that's always a good, a good idea 'cause people get [00:29:40] defensive very quickly, you know? Yeah. What... Let's flip it. Like, what are [00:29:45] ways for a couple to reconnect- Hmm ... that's starting to experience some of this [00:29:50] fraying, so to speak. Yeah. You know, how do they reconnect? Yeah. How do they find their way back [00:29:55] to each other?
[00:29:55] Dr. Taz: Is that possible?
[00:29:56] Caitlin V: Right. Well, and as it- it's- it- honestly, you don't have to be at a five-alarm [00:30:00] fire to start doing these things. Right. Like, any relationship- Right ... will benefit from these same tools [00:30:05] because it's- it becomes preventative maintenance instead of, like, repair, right? Um, [00:30:10] I think that the single most important thing that most people get wrong is we [00:30:15] don't clean up as quickly as we need to- Mm-hmm
[00:30:17] Caitlin V: when it comes to-
[00:30:19] Dr. Taz: Something going wrong ...
[00:30:19] Caitlin V: [00:30:20] yeah, or, like, something didn't feel right about that- Mm-hmm ... and I didn't wanna say anything, or, [00:30:25] you know, we hide little things from each other, right? Like, "I didn't really like, uh, how you [00:30:30] touched me," or, "I was experiencing some pain," or, you know, um, "I told you that I [00:30:35] was staying late at the office, but, like, actually I had a couple drinks with the boys," or, you know, [00:30:40] these little things that add up over time.
[00:30:43] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so we need to [00:30:45] constantly be cleaning and repairing inside of our relationship the really, really [00:30:50] small things before they grow into larger things, right? Interesting. The little miscommunications, the little [00:30:55] missteps, and part of that is learning for ourselves how we can receive feedback- Yeah
[00:30:59] Caitlin V: and not become [00:31:00] defensive around it, right? Right. And not go straight to, "Well, like, I had to," or, you know, "I didn't mean to," or, "You're making too [00:31:05] big of a deal out of it," or- Right ... right? Like, we need to actually be able to learn how to receive those things with grace. Right. That's [00:31:10] very difficult. Right. We need to be able to say them with grace, too.
[00:31:12] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. Like, you know, "I didn't like it when [00:31:15] that happened," or, "I felt alone"- Right ... or, "I felt like you were, um, you were, [00:31:20] you were abandoning me at that dinner and, you know, it didn't [00:31:25] feel good when you, uh, started talking to her instead- Yeah ... of me," or something like that. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. We need to be able to [00:31:30] speak those things clearly, and our, our partner needs to be able to hear them and make [00:31:35] repair quickly.
[00:31:37] Caitlin V: This is not sexy. It is, it is, [00:31:40] it is foundational, it is important, but it is, it is not sexy work, right? We also need [00:31:45] to be engaged in, uh, I think an active process of acknowledging each other. When my ex-husband and [00:31:50] I sort of first discussed splitting, we were around six years into our relationship, [00:31:55] and we kept our relationship going for, like, two full years, practically [00:32:00] running strictly on, like, acknowledgement, appreciation, gratitude, cleanup, and repair.
[00:32:04] Dr. Taz: [00:32:05] Mm-hmm.
[00:32:05] Caitlin V: And so we, we were, uh, we, we had this practice of asking, like, [00:32:10] "What's one thing that you wanna be acknowledged for?"
[00:32:11] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:12] Caitlin V: Because often, you know, we talk about love languages, [00:32:15] like, what I see as love might not be love to you. Right. Right? The way that he's trying to show me- Right ... [00:32:20] love isn't necessarily how I wanna receive it.
[00:32:21] Caitlin V: Right. And so we were able to get really clear on, like, what [00:32:25] we were doing for each other that was, was, were attempts to care for the relationship, [00:32:30] but were falling flat, right? So I'd say, like, "Oh, I wanna be acknowledged for the fact that, like, I did [00:32:35] your laundry," you know, this act of service that I gave to you.
[00:32:38] Caitlin V: And he might say, like, "Oh, I wanna be acknowledged [00:32:40] for the fact that, you know, instead of, uh, uh, uh, taking time [00:32:45] out to go see my friends, I prioritized having our date this week," you know? Mm-hmm. When I might think that that's the bare minimum. [00:32:50]
[00:32:50] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:32:50] Caitlin V: And so, so these little communication style tools can- Yeah
[00:32:53] Caitlin V: be really [00:32:55] effective at, uh, at nipping things in the bud-
[00:32:57] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:32:57] Caitlin V: right before they become bigger and bigger.
[00:32:59] Dr. Taz: Do [00:33:00] men and women disconnect for different reasons?
[00:33:03] Caitlin V: Hmm. [00:33:05] That is a great question
[00:33:07] Dr. Taz: And by disconnect, I mean obviously lose interest [00:33:10] in sex.
[00:33:11] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:11] Dr. Taz: You know, start to withdraw from the re- the term checked out, I'm [00:33:15] sure you've- Mm-hmm.
[00:33:15] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... heard people say. Like, what makes a man check out? What makes a woman check out?
[00:33:19] Caitlin V: Yeah, I mean, [00:33:20] I think they ultimately are the same reasons, but they look different- Different ... in [00:33:25] each gender. Um, I would say that feeling unloved-
[00:33:28] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:33:28] Caitlin V: is pr- kind of [00:33:30] the, the primary- For both ... cause for w- for women in particular- Okay.
[00:33:32] Caitlin V: Okay ... to check out, and feeling [00:33:35] disrespected or not appreciated is m- more commonly the, the man's reason for checking out. Hmm. [00:33:40]
[00:33:40] Dr. Taz: Interesting.
[00:33:40] Caitlin V: But I think that's more of, uh, an indication of just, like, how we receive and what we expect from each [00:33:45] other. You know, ultimately they have a very similar sort of thread.
[00:33:48] Caitlin V: I think they feel similarly in each of [00:33:50] our bodies. Mm-hmm. Um, but we label them very differently, right? Hmm. So, uh, for a woman, if [00:33:55] we don't feel like we are being seen, appreciated, valued, loved, [00:34:00] cared for, the things that we sort of expect- Nurtured. Yeah. Yeah ... nurtured from our, from our masculine partner, then that, that [00:34:05] could be cause for us to check out, to withhold, to put up walls, to, to pull away our [00:34:10] vulnerability.
[00:34:10] Caitlin V: Hmm. And for a man to feel criticized and not trusted, [00:34:15] um, to, to feel put down- Demeaned. Yeah ... demeaned, yeah. Yeah. Uh, all of which kind of fall more under [00:34:20] the category of disrespected. Mm-hmm. Those are more of the causes that men check out. Mm-hmm. And I [00:34:25] think ultimately a lot of folks check out because they feel restricted in one way or another.
[00:34:28] Caitlin V: Like, "I'm not [00:34:30] accepted the way that I am and appreciated for who I am, uh, and you want me to be something [00:34:35] different than who I am today," that's a very difficult feeling to be with, I mean, no matter how much- I hear that a lot ... you love your [00:34:40] partner.
[00:34:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah. I hear that a lot from women about men, like wanting men to be a [00:34:45] particular way- Mm-hmm
[00:34:45] Dr. Taz: right? And men being like, "No," you know.
[00:34:48] Caitlin V: Yeah. And,
[00:34:48] Dr. Taz: and
[00:34:49] Caitlin V: the,
[00:34:49] Dr. Taz: and the other [00:34:50] way around,
[00:34:50] Caitlin V: right?
[00:34:50] Dr. Taz: And they're like, "No, this is not, this is not who I am and this is not who I wanna be." And, and I have seen those [00:34:55] relationships-
[00:34:55] Caitlin V: Yeah ...
[00:34:56] Dr. Taz: you know, fall by the wayside for sure. What's the role of [00:35:00] stress and cortisol and the burden, right?
[00:35:03] Dr. Taz: I call it, for women I call it the invisible [00:35:05] load- Mm-hmm ... 'cause we're always doing logistics and, you know, kinda carrying that, um, you [00:35:10] mentioned it, like the emotional burden for the family, right? So there's that kinda chronic [00:35:15] stressor that a lot of women talk to me about. I've experienced it myself.
[00:35:18] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. You know, what... And then [00:35:20] for men, they c- they may have other stressors, right? Like I feel like men put themselves under a lot of like caregiver [00:35:25] stress or provider stress- Mm-hmm ... or financial stress. You know, what, what is the role of [00:35:30] stress in disconnection and in intimacy?
[00:35:33] Caitlin V: Yeah. I mean, well, cortisol and [00:35:35] testosterone have a inverse relationship.
[00:35:37] Caitlin V: It's not like a, a, a one-to-one scale- Mm-hmm ... [00:35:40] so I'll be cautious about how much I say on that. But, uh, for the most part, men that are dealing with, uh, [00:35:45] high levels of stress, high levels of cortisol... Did I say cortisone earlier? Cortisol.
[00:35:49] Dr. Taz: Cortisol.
[00:35:49] Caitlin V: [00:35:50] Yeah.
[00:35:50] Dr. Taz: Cort- cortisone's related-
[00:35:51] Caitlin V: Cortisone's related ...
[00:35:52] Dr. Taz: so it's okay.
[00:35:53] Caitlin V: So it's okay. But men that are dealing with high levels [00:35:55] of ongoing stress and cortisol have, typically struggle with their testosterone more than [00:36:00] men who don't.
[00:36:00] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:36:01] Caitlin V: Uh, and testosterone is replenished in our sleep, and if they're not sleeping well, there's [00:36:05] a whole cascade of factors- Right, right ... that come out of stress.
[00:36:07] Caitlin V: But I've talked to so many men who say [00:36:10] that their sexual challenges, dysfunctions, issues came forward when they no longer felt like they [00:36:15] could provide, when financial insecurity- Yes ... entered into- Yeah ... their relationship, and that was the biggest and [00:36:20] most challenging thing for them to navigate, right? And you're totally right.
[00:36:23] Caitlin V: It is, there's a lot of like provider [00:36:25] stress. And the truth is that we live in a very quickly changing world- [00:36:30] Yeah ... where women no longer rely on men to- Right ... be their financial providers. Right. Uh, more women [00:36:35] graduate from graduate degrees and- I
[00:36:36] Dr. Taz: know ...
[00:36:37] Caitlin V: uh, and we worked really, really hard to have that- Yeah
[00:36:39] Caitlin V: right? Yeah. [00:36:40] And also we have this changing landscape regarding like AI and more- Right ... traditional jobs and, [00:36:45] you know, women no longer need a man to get a mortgage or sign up for a credit card. So what men need to provide in [00:36:50] relationships has changed. But the way that men have been raised and taught about relationships has [00:36:55] not caught up yet, right?
[00:36:55] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:36:56] Caitlin V: So there is a, a little bit of a sense of, I think, um, [00:37:00] uh, failure on men's part, and there is some like- They're
[00:37:04] Dr. Taz: lost.
[00:37:04] Caitlin V: Yeah, they're [00:37:05] lost, and they feel resentful, and they feel like suddenly... You know, it used to be enough, unfortunately, for [00:37:10] your grandfather to, um, to just like put a, a roof over everyone's head and food on the [00:37:15] table, and then like he had to like kick back and drink a beer, right?
[00:37:17] Caitlin V: Right. He did not need to show up emotionally. Right. He did [00:37:20] not need to have a, a, a value alignment and, and spiritual connection, and he didn't need [00:37:25] to be a safe space for her to, to go to and, and, and have deeper conversations, and he didn't [00:37:30] need to speak the, the language of- Yeah ... vulnerability. But that's not acceptable [00:37:35] anymore for men.
[00:37:35] Caitlin V: Mm. Women are not looking for men to just [00:37:40] become, uh, uh, to, to be, uh, the wallet for the family essentially- Yeah ... right? Like, we can do that for ourself. [00:37:45] We still want men, right? We still wanna have relationships with men. Overwhelmingly, women, even [00:37:50] women who, like, have stopped dating or stopped engaging with men, for the most part, like, they, they, [00:37:55] they chose that after trying- Yeah
[00:37:57] Caitlin V: after putting significant effort into forming [00:38:00] a relationship with a man. And only after repeated, uh, difficulties, [00:38:05] uh, failures, obstacles, challenges, did they decide that they weren't going to continue to pursue that, and that [00:38:10] they were gonna be fine on their own, and they will be fine on their own, right?
[00:38:13] Caitlin V: There's just a lot, um- I'm [00:38:15]
[00:38:15] Dr. Taz: gonna ask you this question. Yeah. It's gonna be so inappropriate, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. So can men [00:38:20] really feel masculine given their biology? if they are [00:38:25] not providing-
[00:38:25] Caitlin V: Hmm ...
[00:38:26] Dr. Taz: and being kind of that [00:38:30] financial safeguard, 'cause have we really evolved to the point, have men had [00:38:35] the opportunity of time and space to truly evolve to the point [00:38:40] where they can be okay biologically?
[00:38:43] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. I'm not talking about consciously and the [00:38:45] decisions they make, and the intellect, and what you might read in a book. I'm talking about subconsciously. [00:38:50] Are men even there yet- Yeah ... where they can feel safe and feel [00:38:55] okay not being the financial provider- Hmm ... or breadwinner, [00:39:00] whatever word- Right ... we wanna use for it- Yeah
[00:39:01] Dr. Taz: um, and still maintain their ma- [00:39:05] masculinity? Or is it sort of killing them on the inside and driving up cortisol and driving down [00:39:10] testosterone?
[00:39:10] Caitlin V: Well, so, so both are true, but if we go back in time prior to [00:39:15] the Industrial Revolution- Yeah ... the expectation that men would leave the house for eight to 10 [00:39:20] hours a day- Right
[00:39:20] Caitlin V: in order to get a paycheck, in order to provide for their family. If we go back in time before that, which is [00:39:25] the majority of all time, right? Right. Um, the, the way that men provided for their family was, like, through [00:39:30] physical labor- Right ... often working a farm, growing food, hunting and killing, and providing [00:39:35] actual literal protection for the family against physical threats and violence, often in the [00:39:40] form of other men.
[00:39:40] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:39:41] Caitlin V: Most, most predominantly in the form- Right ... of other men. Right. And so, yes, absolutely, there are [00:39:45] ways that men can go back and feel very grounded in their status as man, [00:39:50] as protector, as, you know, ca- caretaker of the family when it comes to outside of the [00:39:55] home. It's just that those, those spaces are shifting- Hmm
[00:39:58] Caitlin V: pretty significantly. So [00:40:00] men can no longer look at leaving the house and earning a paycheck [00:40:05] as the way to feel grounded in themselves in their masculinity, and they're also dealing with the fact that [00:40:10] that might have been the only example that was ever demonstrated for them. Yeah. That might be the only- Right
[00:40:13] Caitlin V: you know, we're now- Role model, right ... how [00:40:15] many generations deeply past that point? Right. We don't have any recent memories- Right ... of someone who, [00:40:20] who provided for their family in any other way, right? Right. And, and because money is, um, [00:40:25] s- the, it, it sort of symbolizes talent, and, uh, intelligence, [00:40:30] and capacity, right?
[00:40:30] Caitlin V: Like, we, we see in our culture today, the people who we see as most capable, [00:40:35] most talented, most intelligent, have the most money.
[00:40:37] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:40:38] Caitlin V: And whether that is actually true, it doesn't matter, because [00:40:40] that is- That's just the way it is ... that is the way - Right ... everything is perceived today.
[00:40:43] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:40:43] Caitlin V: And so it [00:40:45] takes an individual man the willingness to say that, "I'm not going to allow my masculinity to [00:40:50] be defined by a paycheck."
[00:40:52] Caitlin V: Hmm. "And instead I'm gonna be ask- I'm gonna be defining my own [00:40:55] masculinity for myself through my behaviors, through the way that I care for other people, through the way that I, like, move my [00:41:00] body, through the, the way that I engage with other men, through the, the service that I provide, through giving my [00:41:05] gifts to my community."
[00:41:06] Caitlin V: There are m- so many routes to that, but it really does take a lot of courage, because it [00:41:10] requires sort of dismantling- Hmm ... so much of what we've been taught to have it.
[00:41:13] Dr. Taz: How can women help [00:41:15] that situation, right? Like, if you are a powerful woman, you know, and we see this all the time, right? Mm-hmm. Like, [00:41:20] powerful women seem to have trouble in a marriage situation frequently, right?[00:41:25]
[00:41:25] Dr. Taz: If you're a powerful woman or, you know, kind of driving the family from a financial [00:41:30] standpoint, you know, is there something women should be aware of-
[00:41:33] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm ...
[00:41:34] Dr. Taz: when they have that [00:41:35] power and that responsibility?
[00:41:36] Caitlin V: Yeah. I think this is so important for us to discuss too- Yeah ... because I think a lot of the, [00:41:40] like, uh, influencer
[00:41:42] Caitlin V: I mean, I don't know. Everyone's algorithm is different. Right. But I [00:41:45] see a lot of, like, okay, if you're a powerful woman, then you need to, uh, uh, become [00:41:50] more feminine when you get home, right? Right. Uh, like put down your, your- Masks ... sword and shield- Yeah ... when you [00:41:55] get home. And, like, I, I, I relate to that. I run a company.
[00:41:58] Caitlin V: Yeah. I am a powerful woman. Yeah. Like, [00:42:00] I've been the ... I was the financial provider for many years. Uh, I, I grew up in a house where my mother was the [00:42:05] breadwinner, breadwinner- Mm-hmm ... and I, I saw it firsthand. So I [00:42:10] feel very strongly that the, the ask should not be for women [00:42:15] to, um, become something that they are not or somehow make themselves smaller- [00:42:20] Smaller, right
[00:42:20] Caitlin V: in order to help their man feel bigger.
[00:42:22] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:42:23] Caitlin V: I don't think we're doing anyone a service when we do [00:42:25] that. Now, that is not to say that it doesn't feel good to get out of your work clothes, put on a [00:42:30] dress- Yeah ... like throw on some makeup. Maybe if you love making food for your family and that helps you to sort of, like, put [00:42:35] down- Yeah
[00:42:35] Caitlin V: the stressors of the work. Yeah. And even if you don't work outside of the house, like existing out in the world, we have [00:42:40] traffic. Yeah. You can almost get hit by a car. Yeah, totally. Like, there's, there are stressors that are not explicitly work-related, and you don't have [00:42:45] to have girl boss energy in order to be dealing with.
[00:42:47] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:42:47] Caitlin V: But, um, I like to think [00:42:50] about it more in terms of how do you, uh, uplift and [00:42:55] support your man into feeling into his bigness- Mm-hmm ... in ways that don't require you to [00:43:00] feel like you're becoming
[00:43:01] Dr. Taz: smaller?
[00:43:03] Caitlin V: Mm. And some of that is, um, [00:43:05] uh, uh- Uh, oh, Justin Patrick Pierce and London [00:43:10] Angel Winters, I believe are their name, great thought leaders in this area.
[00:43:13] Caitlin V: Uh, they've sort of taken the, like, [00:43:15] masculine-feminine polarity conversation and switched it into alpha and omega energy.
[00:43:19] Dr. Taz: [00:43:20] Mm.
[00:43:20] Caitlin V: And they give a great example, which is, like, if we're both in our alpha energy, which like, s- my, my ex-husband [00:43:25] and I, we, we ran a business together. So we were often both in our alpha energy.
[00:43:28] Caitlin V: We were, like, getting it done- Yep ... [00:43:30] leading, taking charge, right? Yeah. And then we would both switch into our omega energy, which is like, "I don't know, you decide. What, what do [00:43:35] we wanna have for dinner?" Yeah. "What do we wanna watch on Netflix," right? Yeah. Like, both of us are in that space. So the [00:43:40] question is not like, um, should one person based on their gender or their genitals-
[00:43:44] Dr. Taz: [00:43:45] Switch
[00:43:45] Caitlin V: constantly be in one role- Right ... or the other. Right. It's like, how much fluidity do we have that we can [00:43:50] switch between them? Because sometimes it's nice for me to be alpha and for him to play omega, or for me to be leader and him to [00:43:55] play follower. Yeah. Sometimes it's nice to consciously switch those and he play leader and I play follower.
[00:43:59] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:43:59] Caitlin V: It's [00:44:00] really more about the, the fact that there is that spark- That's
[00:44:02] Dr. Taz: cool,
[00:44:02] Caitlin V: yeah ... than that- Yeah ... one person needs to be, [00:44:05] like, uh, artificially behaving- Mm ... uh, in a way that's not authentic to them. Yeah. Because what... [00:44:10] that's not sustainable. Right. You know? You're just pretending. That doesn't feel good.
[00:44:13] Caitlin V: Right. And then, and then when it doesn't work, 'cause it [00:44:15] doesn't feel good or natural to anybody, then you're like, "Oh, no. Is our relationship further gone than we thought?" Right. "Do I [00:44:20] need to significantly change the way that I do things in the world?" And the answer is no.
[00:44:23] Dr. Taz: No. [00:44:25] Where, where does, like- performance, right?
[00:44:27] Dr. Taz: The idea of performance or, [00:44:30] you know, how they're gonna- how a man is gonna be in the bedroom. Like, how does that impact [00:44:35] intimacy? What's going on there?
[00:44:36] Caitlin V: Oh my gosh. I mean, that is the name of the game. Or that, that really is it. Yeah. Uh, if I, [00:44:40] if I could, um, if I could underline and bullet point like every [00:44:45] single sexual challenge that men face, it pretty much comes down to performance in one [00:44:50] way or another.
[00:44:50] Caitlin V: And the expectation that we have collectively of men, that they are going to want [00:44:55] sex, be able to have sex, uh, be able to, um, know what, know what their [00:45:00] partner needs in sex- Mm-hmm ... uh, and that if they don't do any of those things all of the time, then they [00:45:05] are failing. Mm-hmm. I mean, that is the definition of performance pressure.
[00:45:07] Caitlin V: I have to show up and be a certain way and succeed [00:45:10] in order to be loved, in order to be a man. And remember, masculinity is something that you have to, like, bake fresh every [00:45:15] day, right? Yeah. You don't just like, you know, go through puberty and you're a man- Right ... in the same way that, like, we become women.[00:45:20]
[00:45:20] Caitlin V: Men are constantly having to prove that they are men, right? You don't hear, like, anyone say, "Woman [00:45:25] up." I mean, maybe we hear that more nowadays- Yeah. ... but, like, the phrase man up has a lot of meaning. Man up. Right. Like, man [00:45:30] up, right? There is a way to perform masculinity, and you need to do it, or you can get gut checked.
[00:45:34] Caitlin V: You can get checked [00:45:35] by another man. You can get checked by a woman. You're not being a man. You're not man enough, right? All of these are [00:45:40] ways that we remind men all of the time that they need to perform masculinity in a [00:45:45] specific way in order to earn love, in order to earn their place, like, in society, right?
[00:45:49] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. And so [00:45:50] all of that comes with them into the bedroom, and it comes with them into the bedroom with this, like, [00:45:55] additional level of shame and an inability to discuss how common whatever it is that they're [00:46:00] going through is. Mm-hmm. So those compound, and, you know, really, really [00:46:05] well-meaning, intelligent, phenomenal men of character and of value are [00:46:10] put in this position where they feel like something is [00:46:15] broken if their performance isn't being executed in the way that it's supposed [00:46:20] to be.
[00:46:20] Caitlin V: And so they take that internally.
[00:46:22] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:23] Caitlin V: And sometimes they do something about it, [00:46:25] right? Like, they seek help, they seek support, they read books, they go to coaching, they do this.
[00:46:28] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:46:28] Caitlin V: But a, a, a fair [00:46:30] number of men who, like, are otherwise extremely successful and capable really internalize [00:46:35] that and, you know, allow it almost to, like, rot-
[00:46:37] Dr. Taz: Mm
[00:46:37] Caitlin V: and to, to become something that, [00:46:40] uh, becomes a barrier between them and, and the people that they love.
[00:46:43] Dr. Taz: And that becomes a bigger [00:46:45] disconnection. Mm-hmm. And this is performance in terms of performance in the bedroom- Yep ... or just [00:46:50] performing as a male?
[00:46:51] Caitlin V: I mean, performing as a male, but specifically it really [00:46:55] impacts intimate relationships.
[00:46:56] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. Um, and that's, that's, you know, the area that I love focusing [00:47:00] on for men-
[00:47:00] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:47:00] Caitlin V: is reframing and shifting their conversation around [00:47:05] a performance-based model and into more of a pleasure-based model.
[00:47:09] Dr. Taz: [00:47:10] So maybe go into that just a little bit more, because if, if, if a man is g- listening [00:47:15] today and is, is feeling that way, like just pressured, there's financial pressure, there's [00:47:20] family pressure, there's, you know, whatever is going on with them.
[00:47:23] Dr. Taz: There could be medical pressure, right? [00:47:25] Mm-hmm. Like, there's biology that is changing for many men, and I would put that plug in of make sure, you [00:47:30] know, you understand where your hormones are and get those hormones checked and, and understand where your [00:47:35] cortisol is. I mean, I had this conversation with my husband who's, you know, dealing with, you know, his own hormone [00:47:40] shifting and cholesterol shifting, and I'm like, "I'm not doing anything until the chole- until the cortisol is better."
[00:47:44] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Because the [00:47:45] cortisol was through the roof, you know? And so I think, you know, really understanding your [00:47:50] biology is probably just as important for men as it is for women. Mm-hmm. We tell women all the time to- Yes ... [00:47:55] understand their hormones, so men too need to do that. But, you know, in addition [00:48:00] to that, like, what can we help them with in terms of a toolbox if they're feeling [00:48:05] this way?
[00:48:05] Dr. Taz: Mm. Like, if we gave them three things to do, what would you tell them to do? From, from a- Homework. Homework [00:48:10] time ...
[00:48:10] Caitlin V: from a fe- from a partner's perspective.
[00:48:11] Dr. Taz: From their... No.
[00:48:12] Caitlin V: Oh, directly to men.
[00:48:13] Dr. Taz: Directly to men, and then [00:48:15] yes, you know, from a partner's perspective. Yeah. What's the homework for everyone?
[00:48:18] Caitlin V: So I, [00:48:20] um, I, I, I typically start with the physical body, but you covered that, right?
[00:48:23] Caitlin V: Yeah. Women are far more likely to [00:48:25] go to get- Right ... their, uh, typical health screenings. They're far more likely to do deeper dives- Right ... [00:48:30] into their
[00:48:30] Dr. Taz: health.
[00:48:30] Caitlin V: Yes. So, you know, I like to say to men, like, "If you won't do it for your sex life, what will you do it [00:48:35] for?"
[00:48:35] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:48:35] Caitlin V: Right? You maybe don't wanna get screened and find out that you're pre-diabetic.
[00:48:38] Caitlin V: I, I get it. Yeah. That can be very scary, [00:48:40] you know? Yeah. I still think you should do it.
[00:48:41] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:48:41] Caitlin V: Get over it. There's a
[00:48:42] Dr. Taz: lot of that. Can you help me with that? There's so much of that. [00:48:45] Like, they're so scared to come, and they so wanna game the system. Mm. They're like, [00:48:50] "Well, I wasn't gonna come because X, Y, and Z happened.
[00:48:52] Dr. Taz: I knew my A1C would be off, and I'm, I knew my [00:48:55] lipids would be off." Right. "So I was gonna wait 90 more days-"
[00:48:56] Caitlin V: Right ... "
[00:48:57] Dr. Taz: and then come."
[00:48:58] Caitlin V: Well, I think all of that really does also come down [00:49:00] to performer. Like, there's something broken about me if I'm not healthy, then, and [00:49:05] then I have to face all these other truths- You are
[00:49:06] Caitlin V: and I, I'm just, I'm strong and I'm tough, and I've been, uh- I know better ... taught how to do [00:49:10] this. Yeah. So I can't... Again, it's like- Yeah ... if it, it doesn't mean you're broken. Yeah. Period. You know? [00:49:15] Uh, and the sooner that you get in, the, the better that your results are gonna be, almost universally, right? [00:49:20] Like, prevention is the best path.
[00:49:20] Caitlin V: And you'll be on a path,
[00:49:21] Dr. Taz: like an ef- efficient path for you. Yeah. And so swimming in like, "Well, I [00:49:25] know I need to eat better and move more," you know what I mean? Like, there, there may be something you're missing. Mm-hmm. You know, that's [00:49:30] basic biology.
[00:49:30] Caitlin V: Yeah. And, um- I mean, it's, it's, it like comes down to that same trope of like men not wanting to ask for directions, right?
[00:49:34] Caitlin V: Right. Like, [00:49:35] I mean, if men are supposed to always know- Yeah ... what's going on and, and what to do next, and [00:49:40] we do put, we put so much pressure on men- Right ... to know what they're supposed to do- Right ... all the time, in and out of the bedroom, then like [00:49:45] it stands to reason that they- Right ... they would not go in and seek the advice of any kind of professional- Right
[00:49:49] Caitlin V: because like [00:49:50] they're supposed- Right ... to know what to do. Right. So drop that nonsense. Like, go get your- Exactly ... get your physical health-
[00:49:54] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:49:54] Caitlin V: [00:49:55] looked at first. Um, and then I typically go to, um, [00:50:00] mental and then, like, emotional wellbeing, right? Okay. So, uh, mental means checking [00:50:05] in on the stories that you tell yourself, the narratives, the things that you believe [00:50:10] are true.
[00:50:10] Caitlin V: This is one of the things that I learned really early on in coaching with men, is that, uh, they would come in and [00:50:15] they'd be like, "Well-" I'm a realist and I'm very logical, therefore all of these [00:50:20] things are true. And I would say, "Okay, I, I- let's... Maybe we have different definitions of [00:50:25] truth," but all of those things seem, like, highly anecdotal and you just experienced them once and you took it like, "All women [00:50:30] are like that.
[00:50:30] Caitlin V: All relationships are like this." Mm-hmm. And, and so I would help them to, like, un-examine or to, to [00:50:35] pa- unpack and examine where those thoughts and beliefs- Right ... that they're like really, [00:50:40] there's so much conviction around them. And it is scary to, like, begin to let go and loosen up on your world [00:50:45] beliefs, right?
[00:50:45] Caitlin V: Yeah. Because we believe that we built our scaffolding. Yeah. Uh, the thing that holds us up in life [00:50:50] or holds our relationship up, right, like built on these beliefs. What would it mean if I began to loosen them up and let them go? [00:50:55] Well, it probably would mean that you lived a happier and healthier- Mm-hmm
[00:50:58] Caitlin V: life. And, and that's the thing that might stand on [00:51:00] the other side of confronting those things. It's not like a singular piece of homework, but more like- Like the narrative- ...
[00:51:04] Dr. Taz: a mindset shift ... the [00:51:05] stories you tell yourself, right?
[00:51:06] Caitlin V: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and fortunately, starting with the mind is a lot [00:51:10] easier for men than going maybe through, like, the emotions- Mm-hmm
[00:51:12] Caitlin V: or relationship or, or communication or [00:51:15] th- even spiritual entry points because we can all get that our mindset impacts our [00:51:20] wellbeing and our lives, period.
[00:51:21] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:51:21] Caitlin V: Right? Uh, and it ex- it impacts what we expect from other people [00:51:25] and how we treat other people. And so I would say begin with, uh, a, a thorough [00:51:30] examination of your mindset and beliefs around sex, around women, around partnership, around yourself, [00:51:35] around masculinity.
[00:51:36] Caitlin V: Mm. No small task.
[00:51:37] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:51:37] Caitlin V: But certainly the results that you will get from [00:51:40] a thorough ex- exploration and reflection will create the foundation upon which everything [00:51:45] else can rest, right? I also say it always starts with you. Uh, your sexuality starts with you. It's [00:51:50] not something that your partner owes you.
[00:51:51] Caitlin V: It's not something that your partner or your relationship [00:51:55] creates. It predates them.
[00:51:57] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:51:57] Caitlin V: It's something that has existed even before you went through [00:52:00] puberty. It was different then, but your sexuality will be with you until you take your final breath. It is [00:52:05] not made by another person. It is not for another person.
[00:52:07] Caitlin V: And so when we, when we examine our [00:52:10] own sexuality from our own perspective-
[00:52:12] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:52:12] Caitlin V: that can be truly revelatory as well, and I would [00:52:15] give that to both men and women, right? Hmm. So much of us, uh, are raised and conditioned to [00:52:20] believe that sex is bad, dirty, shameful. Right. Only do it with one person- One person.
[00:52:24] Caitlin V: Right ... that you're married [00:52:25] to under these really specific circumstances. Right. But the truth is underneath it all, that's, that's not who we are. That's not [00:52:30] how we evolved. We can have any relationship with sexuality that we want, but it has to be grounded in our own reality, right? [00:52:35]
[00:52:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:52:35] Caitlin V: And then for men especially, I would say to, to [00:52:40] develop a practice or some kind of relationship to your emotions.
[00:52:44] Caitlin V: [00:52:45] Hmm. You know, so often we, we discuss emotions as if they are in the wheelhouse of women- [00:52:50] Right ... and, and not at all in the wheelhouse of men, right? Right.
[00:52:52] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:52:52] Caitlin V: But, like, often men [00:52:55] filter all of their emotions through a handful of emotions that are, you know, socially acceptable [00:53:00] Anger is an emotion, right?
[00:53:01] Caitlin V: Yep. So, so if you have outbursts, if you experience anger, [00:53:05] or you experience shutdown, if you experience sadness, if you experience going internal, if you experience numbness, all [00:53:10] of these are emotions.
[00:53:11] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:53:11] Caitlin V: You have an emotional landscape whether you like it or not. You know, boy [00:53:15] babies and boy toddlers cry in the same way that girl babies and girl toddlers do.
[00:53:18] Caitlin V: We are not different- Right ... in [00:53:20] this way. It's just that we've been conditioned differently, right? And so when men repress or [00:53:25] suppress their emotional landscape, they create sort of like these like emotional [00:53:30] volcanoes, like hotspots- Mm-hmm ... where emotions tend to flare up and come out. Yep. But they also then are less [00:53:35] practiced when other emotions come through.
[00:53:36] Caitlin V: Like, we're, we're all gonna lose people that we love, right? If we're fortunate enough [00:53:40] to live a long life, uh, we will lose things, people, animals- [00:53:45] Right ... homes, jobs- Right ... like, things that are important to us. And if you don't have a [00:53:50] skillset that allows you to process things like grief, uh, [00:53:55] then you also don't have a skillset that's gonna allow you to, like, really dive in and experience the [00:54:00] heights of joy and happiness and satisfaction.
[00:54:03] Caitlin V: Your emotions [00:54:05] are not, um, you can't suppress one and allow for another, right? Yeah. You can't keep sadness at bay but [00:54:10] experience joy all day. That, not, not- Right ... not in a real way, right? Right. There's certainly people who pretend that they [00:54:15] can. Uh, but that is not reality, right? And, and having a [00:54:20] relationship with your emotions and knowing what's going on internally, how to express them, how to talk about them, that's [00:54:25] not weakness.
[00:54:25] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:54:25] Caitlin V: That's actually... Th- they're, they're fuel, right? The, the, the, the spike [00:54:30] that you feel when you, when you have emotions that, like, draw you to do things, that cause you to take [00:54:35] action, like, you can either have that working for you or you can have that working against you. Mm. And [00:54:40] so I would say if you start anywhere, start with your physical body, examine your mental [00:54:45] landscape, and then develop some kind of a relationship with your emotions- Mm
[00:54:49] Caitlin V: that [00:54:50] empowers you instead of, uh, uh, disempowering you.
[00:54:53] Dr. Taz: And all of that is [00:54:55] additive and cumulative to your ability to experience intimacy.
[00:54:58] Caitlin V: Yes. In- intimacy is [00:55:00] made up of all of these other pieces. All of these other parts are foundational- Mm ... to our [00:55:05] relationship with intimacy. And, you know, if I was to add one other thing onto that, I would say [00:55:10] practice and learn how to communicate.
[00:55:12] Caitlin V: We take for granted that because we know how to speak to each [00:55:15] other that we know how to communicate with each other, and we simply do not. Even, even people who are [00:55:20] super stellar communicators in the boardroom-
[00:55:22] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:55:22] Caitlin V: can really lack the capacity to [00:55:25] communicate inside of the bedroom. Mm. And so don't start with the most fraught, most [00:55:30] difficult, most vulnerable conversations- Yeah
[00:55:32] Caitlin V: around sex and sexuality.
[00:55:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:55:33] Caitlin V: Start with the stuff that [00:55:35] is easier, the low-hanging fruit, the things that you know that you need to say or communicate about. Give [00:55:40] us
[00:55:40] Dr. Taz: an example- Um- ... 'cause I think men have trouble with this.
[00:55:43] Caitlin V: Yeah, I
[00:55:43] Dr. Taz: think- Like, and women too to a certain [00:55:45] extent around this particular topic.
[00:55:46] Dr. Taz: Like, how do you enter this conversation?
[00:55:48] Caitlin V: Yeah, I think one area that, uh, both, [00:55:50] both sides struggle with there- Mm ... is communicating around desires.
[00:55:52] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:55:53] Caitlin V: Right? Mm-hmm. Uh, we, we often [00:55:55] don't know, for women, what we want in bed and intimacy, right? And then we certainly don't know how to [00:56:00] speak to what it is that we want, right?
[00:56:01] Caitlin V: So we have this, like, layering of issues there. And men also have sometimes [00:56:05] quite a bit of shame around their desires. Mm. Like, you're not allowed to want that from your wife. Right. You're not allowed [00:56:10] to have those thoughts, even though you do, and you watch them on your phone at night in the bathroom when no one's looking.
[00:56:14] Caitlin V: Yeah. [00:56:15] Right? Yeah. And so being able to communicate around our desires outside of the [00:56:20] bedroom, for both of us, really benefits our ability to communicate about them in the bedroom.
[00:56:24] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:56:24] Caitlin V: The issue is that [00:56:25] many of us, myself included, can be very detached from our desires, right? Like, [00:56:30] what is it that you wanna do, uh, uh, tonight, this weekend?
[00:56:33] Caitlin V: Where do you wanna go to dinner? Like, these are really [00:56:35] small- Mm-hmm ... really easy to, to practice areas, uh, where we can discuss what [00:56:40] our desires really are. Uh, what is it that we want from, from this season of our [00:56:45] life- Mm ... from the rest of this year?
[00:56:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:56:47] Caitlin V: A lot of us, just the same way, like, we're afraid to learn that we're pre-diabetic, we're [00:56:50] afraid to set goals for ourself.
[00:56:51] Caitlin V: Yeah. We're afraid to be ambitious in other areas of our life. Um, [00:56:55] w- I, I, I begin each year with, like, a pretty robust, um, goal-setting- Yeah ... and mind mapping [00:57:00] process. Yeah, me too. Yeah. I love it. And, you know, look at- I do too. Yeah, and this is, this is part of where we are, right? [00:57:05] Yeah. Right. And one of the desires that I had that I was, like, almost, like, nervous to say out loud is, like, I [00:57:10] wanted to host more dinner parties.
[00:57:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:57:11] Caitlin V: Right?
[00:57:12] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:57:12] Caitlin V: W- getting clear on that desire and [00:57:15] just naming it, I've had more folks over for dinner, and it's April- Uh-huh ... when we're recording this, than I [00:57:20] did probably, like, all of last year. Oh, wow. It was just getting clear that that desire existed inside of [00:57:25] me, and then having the courage to speak it out loud [00:57:30] and having the capacity to actually be willing to make it happen.
[00:57:33] Caitlin V: So anything that, [00:57:35] any- anything that's coming up in the bedroom, if it's difficulty saying something, if it's difficulty being clear with yourself on [00:57:40] something, if it's difficulty, uh, um, you know, communicating your, uh, [00:57:45] uh, requests or the things that you wanna try, like- Yeah ... tr- take those [00:57:50] and develop them outside of the bedroom first, and then take the skill set [00:57:55] that you have created for yourself and built for yourself, and then bring that [00:58:00] into your intimate conversation.
[00:58:01] Dr. Taz: Mm. Such good, good information. Are there places couples can [00:58:05] go or men can go even to help them communicate? I feel like that's [00:58:10] such a thing, you know?
[00:58:12] Caitlin V: Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, the place [00:58:15] where I actually went to learn a lot of this, and they take a ton of flak, so, so if you've already have your thoughts about this, then, [00:58:20] you know- Yeah, yeah
[00:58:21] Caitlin V: y- y- we- you take what, take what works- Right ... leave the rest. Um, but I actually did a lot of work with [00:58:25] Landmark- Okay ... Worldwide Personal Development. Okay. Are you familiar with
[00:58:27] Dr. Taz: them?
[00:58:28] Caitlin V: No. Um, so they, they exist all over the country. [00:58:30] They have in-person events, um, in major cities and they do online events. But, um, they do, [00:58:35] like, a three-day live event called The Forum.
[00:58:36] Caitlin V: It's very confrontational for- Mm-hmm ... a lot of folks. Again, uh, they've taken a lot [00:58:40] of flak. A lot of people have really strong feelings about them. Yeah. Um, so I'm not necessarily plugging them, I'm just saying that [00:58:45] it did work for me. Okay. I, I did Landmark early on in life when, I think it was in my mid-20s, and it [00:58:50] w- it was confronting, but it caused me to get clear on...
[00:58:52] Caitlin V: And I was already a pretty good communicator to be fair- [00:58:55] Caused me to get clear where I was lacking integrity, where I would say one thing and then do another.
[00:58:59] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:58:59] Caitlin V: [00:59:00] Uh, caused me to get clear on the ways that I, um, had, had, had [00:59:05] considerations for other people. Like, "Oh, I can't say that because that might hurt them," or, "That might bring something up," or, "I shouldn't say [00:59:10] that 'cause they're going-" Right.
[00:59:10] Caitlin V: Instead of, like, just honoring that, like, someone needed to say something about-
[00:59:14] Dr. Taz: Right,
[00:59:14] Caitlin V: right ... [00:59:15] this, this, this relationship and where we had gotten to in it. Right. So that was really [00:59:20] impactful for me, but there are some phenomenal books and resources if that's not where you wanna [00:59:25] start. Non-violent communication.
[00:59:27] Caitlin V: Um, there's even books that come out of more, uh, [00:59:30] business and leadership around, uh, honest communication that, that could be beneficial- Mm-hmm ... and [00:59:35] that you can bring into your relationship. And then finding a couples coach if you're, if you're [00:59:40] more... You know, if you're in a good place and you just wanna move forward and be better.
[00:59:42] Caitlin V: Right. Or a therapist if you're not in a great place and you [00:59:45] really need to do some deeper work that is especially skilled at helping folks navigate [00:59:50] communication, because those people are trained to be the third person in the room who can say, [00:59:55] "Okay," like, "Pause. We're getting heated. Here's what she's trying to say.
[00:59:57] Caitlin V: Here's what he's trying to say. Are you able to get [01:00:00] that? Are you able to receive that? Are you able to, uh, communicate to them what you got from that?" Sometimes [01:00:05] when, when, uh, when it, when it's very difficult to move through communication differences, [01:00:10] having a third party who is neutral, who's paid to be there, can be the thing that [01:00:15] makes all the difference.
[01:00:17] Dr. Taz: So in your opinion with this work for both [01:00:20] men and women, can marriages last more than 20 years?
[01:00:23] Caitlin V: Yes, absolutely. Yes. I [01:00:25] think with all things, it- it's... We just have to treat it like it is a, [01:00:30] uh, a... We have to treat it like we treat anything else that we want to hold onto in the [01:00:35] long term, whether that is our health, our home, our children.
[01:00:39] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[01:00:39] Caitlin V: [01:00:40] Right? If we expect that-
[01:00:42] Dr. Taz: Grow it. Yeah ...
[01:00:43] Caitlin V: yeah, don't just expect that it will take [01:00:45] care of you forever if you don't take care of it first.
[01:00:48] Dr. Taz: Mm. I love [01:00:50] that. Well, this has been so enlightening, and I hope both men and [01:00:55] women are able to take from this, you know, and really find a way to [01:01:00] communicate and to really reestablish intimacy if they've loft it- lost it, or if they're in a great place, like, [01:01:05] what are the, what are the things to look out for, you know?
[01:01:08] Dr. Taz: So I think this has been incredible. [01:01:10] Where would you lead anyone listening or watching today? Is there some... Is there a resource that you [01:01:15] would point them towards? Or where can they find you- Yeah ... if they wanna work with you?
[01:01:19] Caitlin V: Like- So, so I [01:01:20] wrote a book that is essentially, like, my coaching methodology- Okay
[01:01:23] Caitlin V: for men- Okay ... in sex and [01:01:25] relationships- Okay ... and it's called Harder, Better, Longer, Stronger: The Science, Skills and Secrets for the Best Sex of Your [01:01:30] Life.
[01:01:30] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[01:01:30] Caitlin V: Uh, you can get that wherever books are sold. And if books are not necessarily your, um, [01:01:35] favorite mode of, of gathering information, then I have over 1,000 videos [01:01:40] uploaded to YouTube- Wow.
[01:01:41] Caitlin V: uh, under my name, Caitlin V- Okay ... spanning, uh, sexuality, spanning [01:01:45] relationships. There's videos on there also for women.
[01:01:47] Dr. Taz: Right.
[01:01:47] Caitlin V: Um, and that is also a great place to start, [01:01:50] and, and in my channel, I also point regularly to, to the resources that I'm learning [01:01:55] from, and, um, and I try to share those things as much as possible as well.
[01:01:58] Dr. Taz: Incredible. [01:02:00] Well, I have so enjoyed this conversation. Cool. I've gotta ask- What?
[01:02:02] Caitlin V: I forgot I have a TV show- Oh, my gosh ... that I should point people [01:02:05] to also. And by the way- Little, little thing called my- Oh, by
[01:02:08] Dr. Taz: the way. ...
[01:02:08] Caitlin V: little TV show that I [01:02:10] did. Um, it's called Good Sex. Okay. It's on HBO Max. Okay. And in it, we actually put cameras in the bedrooms [01:02:15] of- Oh, my gosh
[01:02:16] Caitlin V: uh, several different couples. Yeah. And, uh, because it is all me working with [01:02:20] couples, and each, uh, episode and each session shares a lot of tools [01:02:25] and actual techniques- Ooh ... that you might wanna borrow. Yeah. And it's a phenomenal resource to watch with [01:02:30] your significant other. Interesting. So you can watch it, you can pause it, you can talk about it.
[01:02:33] Caitlin V: Yeah. You can try some of the [01:02:35] tools. Yeah. You can, know, you can kinda, like, piece together the exercises- Yeah ... that I'm doing and try them at home. Yeah. [01:02:40] Um, so yeah, that's, that's a, that's a pretty significant tool- That's a
[01:02:42] Dr. Taz: significant tool ... that,
[01:02:44] Caitlin V: uh,
[01:02:44] Dr. Taz: Good Sex- Good Sex [01:02:45] on HBO
[01:02:45] Caitlin V: Max ... on HBO Max. That's right.
[01:02:46] Dr. Taz: And I saw that sex was s- spelled S-E-G-G-
[01:02:49] Caitlin V: Oh, [01:02:50] just, just to get away from the algorithm police.
[01:02:52] Caitlin V: Ah, okay. Yeah. Got it. It's just spelled regular S-E-X on [01:02:55] HBO Max. On HBO Max. 'Cause it is
[01:02:56] Dr. Taz: HBO. Okay. You know? Got it, gotcha. All right. Excellent. All right, final [01:03:00] question: What makes you whole?
[01:03:02] Caitlin V: Mm.[01:03:05]
[01:03:08] Caitlin V: You know, this is on my mind a [01:03:10] lot. Um
[01:03:14] Caitlin V: [01:03:15] Having a community around me for whom I can go to [01:03:20] for anything-
[01:03:20] Dr. Taz: Mm ...
[01:03:21] Caitlin V: is the thing that makes me home.
[01:03:22] Dr. Taz: I love that. I love that. Well, [01:03:25] this has been incredible. If you've been watching and listening, hopefully you've learned something from this [01:03:30] episode, or you'll share it with someone, maybe a man in your life who really needs to hear this.
[01:03:34] Dr. Taz: [01:03:35] I think I work with men, I meet a lot of men, I'm married, I have a son, [01:03:40] you know, and communication continues to be an area of vulnerability, which then I [01:03:45] think leads them down roads maybe they didn't expect. So share it with somebody that you [01:03:50] love, and remember, we post new episodes every week, so subscribe and I'll see you next [01:03:55] time.
[01:03:55] Caitlin V: Before you go, take a second to reflect on what stood out for you today. [01:04:00] Then, if you can, leave a quick review wherever you're listening. It really helps [01:04:05] other people discover Whole
[01:04:06] Dr. Taz: Plus and start their own healing journey. And don't forget [01:04:10] to follow me on Instagram, @drtazmd. I love hearing how these episodes [01:04:15] are supporting you