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Hear from experienced public affairs professionals, as our host Jack Talbot discusses the past, present and future of the profession with those who are shaping it.
From the days of posting letters to the future of technology-driven practices and AI insights, discover how the industry has changed, what its main focuses are now, and where it will be going.
00:01
Welcome to Now and Next in Public Affairs brought to you by Helio Intelligence, the home of Haviland and Forefront. This week we're in Brussels. I'm Jack Talbot and I'm very, very happy to say that the sun is shining and everyone seems to be getting back to business as usual here in Brussels. And I am joined today by Nathalie Errard, who is the SVP and Head of European and NATO Affairs at Airbus. Nathalie. Morning, Jack. Good morning, everybody. I'm very pleased to be with you this morning. We're very pleased to have you.
00:29
For all the listeners, Nathalie has already been to the gym this morning. So we're recording locally at about 10am. So it's already been a busy morning for both of us. So really appreciate you making the time. Obviously, today, we're going to talk about the future of public affairs. We're going to talk about what that looks like here in Brussels. In terms of your experience, you've been at Airbus for a long time, around 20 years or so. You've been in Brussels for around the same kind of period. A bit less. A bit less? A bit less.
00:57
Would you be okay to talk us through how, in your experience, public affairs has changed over your time? Yes, with pleasure. Well, actually, I arrived around 14 years ago and I used to be the head of investor relations at Airbus. So I was not programmed to do European affairs or public affairs.
01:18
My recollection is that everything was a bit more impressionist, i.e. people were less structured, the processes were less robust. I get the sense that EU public affairs normalised in terms of departments and from an ad hoc way of working, we're really getting into a more professional way of working.
01:42
And I wonder sometimes if somebody with my background could do it now, i.e. only knowing about financial topics and being head of investor relations, would it be possible for somebody to transition to
01:56
public affairs now. I'm not so sure because the complexity of the topics, the range of the topics are getting much more complex to grasp. And I think therefore there's real knowledge and way of working that you have to integrate over time. So I think this is really new. And I remember I was able to follow all topics
02:19
in a very granular way in the past. It's not possible anymore. I can be very specific on one topic and then the rest is really managing the team and trying to see where the risk and opportunities lie and interfacing with top management, which is not a big change. I think that top management is much more aware of what's going on
02:40
at EU level. Of course the geopolitical context brings a brand new colour to what we're doing at EU level, on trade. Now the EU is as well very active on defence topics, defence and security, which for us is absolutely critical and strategic. So we have more and more trips of top management in Brussels, and not only the CEO. I mean in the past it used to be a lot of CEOs
03:06
and a lot of SVPs, but now we have a lot of executive committee members who are visiting Brussels and want to understand better the agenda. Because as I said, since the range of topics is getting bigger, nobody can really master all what's at stake for the group. You have digital, you have decarbonisation, defence as we said, trade of course.
03:30
in geopolitical context. So there are different layers of interest for top managers in Brussels. And of course, that keeps us busy in terms of trying to brief them and prepare all these trips, trying to be on top of this very wide agenda. How do you organise yourself and your team to be in tune with what's going on on these very different pillars, while at the same time trying to keep the overview because this is what you're supposed to do, trying to put everything in perspective so that it makes sense.
04:00
There's so much for me to dive into there. I'm probably going to come back to the geopolitical angle and I'm going to come back to the dynamics internally when it comes to senior leadership teams.
04:11
I want to pick up on one of the, I guess, the relatively early things you said, a bit about your internal progression here at Airbus and how you didn't necessarily start off in public affairs, but that's where you are now. My research, correct me if I'm wrong here, was that you actually started your career in audit in PwC. I'm really interested to understand a little bit about how
04:35
how your earlier career has prepared you, how it may have benefited you or may not have benefited you to where you are now.
04:44
So if you're able to talk to us a little bit about how your journey progressed and how the skills and experience you picked up on the way helped or didn't help. Sure, maybe as a summary to start, indeed I studied telecommunication and then I started in IT audit, audit on information system, but very rapidly I went into financial audits and then mergers and acquisitions, a lot of mergers and acquisitions.
05:11
investor relations, and then that drove me to head of EU public affairs. I remember arriving in Brussels, of course, I had a lot to digest, and that was pretty obvious that knowing the group very well, the strategy, the products was a big plus.
05:27
On the other hand, the audience was extremely different. You cannot compare working with analysts and investors on the financial markets and trying to work with an interface with key EU institutional stakeholders. That's extremely different.
05:44
So that was a cultural shock and it took time to adapt. I needed to understand what was our added value because finance is quite quick. A word said and then your share price can react.
05:58
Here you can do tons of meetings and wonder if really you made a difference. So it took a while to understand what influence is, how you progress, how you build a relationship, how you bring good arguments to the table to try to influence decisions and regulations.
06:16
But I remember something quite interesting, trying to answer your question. I asked somebody who was an expert in public affairs how I could handle this massive change and how I could progress. And that person replied,
06:32
Well, probably you need to understand better the public affairs agenda and the political agenda and how to deal with politicians, but you will be very good if you keep what you learned previously in finance. And this is very true that I think the structure and the rigour of finance
06:50
The fact that you are managing projects and you want consistency from A to Z until you have the target achieved helped me tremendously in managing files in a very structured way and keeping all the way as you see your attention. And the problem with EU Public Affairs is that it drags on forever. Therefore, you need to be sure that you're not forgetting an important file, an important topic that
07:16
all the others may have forgotten about. And that's the risk, because so many things are happening on a daily basis that what you started three weeks ago kind of dropped or not tackled properly anymore. And I think that you need to have this rigor saying, "Okay, if I have a file in, I need to finish that file, or I need to decide I close the file." But this has to be a conscious decision.
07:41
Therefore, being in the driver's seat of your work, in the decisions you can take, and not always dragged by the external agenda, which is your work. You need to understand the external agenda. So, naturally, you're dragged by the external agenda. I think you need to offer some resistance. And I think finance helped me on that. And, of course, investor relations helped me tremendously to understand what was important for the group.
08:09
and trying to explain to an external audience the key strategic topics for Airbus, the key decisions, why things that could politically make sense actually financially could not. So that brought me as well a huge level of knowledge. But I would argue that probably the most added value of previous job was the structure and the rigour that I kept, I hope. Yeah.
08:36
It's really interesting to dive into it because a lot of the people that we speak to as part of our work and people who have come on this podcast are kind of what I would describe as born and bred public affairs. They've done politics or some version of politics at a university level and then have gone into the profession that way. So it's really nice and fascinating in many respects to speak to somebody who doesn't necessarily have that background.
09:03
but nonetheless is right here in the Brussels bubble, working in a huge organisation that's got a global footprint and leading on public affairs. You're one of the few people I would say that has a finance background and it's really interesting
09:16
to hear that actually some of the skills and experiences you've acquired in finance are transferable to public affairs. I must say, I will definitely be bringing this up or bringing it to the attention of my colleagues in finance at Helio and also some of my colleagues, I say colleagues, my friends who work in financial services. So that's really, really good. Thank you. A couple of things I wanted to pick up on in terms of the dynamic you have with senior leaders across Airbus.
09:43
You mentioned earlier about how there appears definitely to be quite an interest in what happens here in Brussels and the impact of it. I guess what I'm trying to understand is to what extent has that changed over your time here?
09:58
I think when I arrived, the head of functions in Airbus at operational level were interested because they had noticed that on some regulation, it was at the time after the financial crisis, so I remember our head of treasury was very interested in what was happening with the financial regulations. So we had interaction, of course, with important leaders of the group that were more at expertise level.
10:22
I think the double revolution of the green and the digital transitions raised the profile of Brussels to top managers.
10:30
because they understood that the architecture of the green and digital regulations is framed here. And therefore, they want to understand better how the EU institutions are looking at those topics, and they want as well to try to explain what is the interest and the way Airbus looks at these very, very important topics. So we had that aspect, and on top of that, it was coupled with more investment in space, which is very important for us, of course. And
10:58
and more investment recently in defence. So now we have the full spectrum of the group, which was not the case in the past. When I arrived, people were telling me: "Don't speak about defence. If you go to the Parliament, don't go on stage and express yourself on defence." People have understood that it's actually a requirement to speak on defence for a lot of topics, and of course for us, Aeronautics, we are a dual company, and therefore we have
11:25
technologies, offerings, products in both the civilian and military side, and that you cannot disconnect the two. So now all activities have an interface or an interest in what's happening in Brussels. And I think as well in the new geopolitical context that we were referring to, how Europeans get a voice in the world is a very important question. And for industry, scale matters. And for our industry, that is clear.
11:53
And how do you get scale? You get scale to create European offers, European products, European investments. Of course, Airbus has done it on the industrial side, but that's not enough to be a European champion on the industrial side if your market and your decision makers are fragmented.
12:11
So how to tackle fragmentation, how to be more efficient, it gets more and more strategic. And the EU is a very important player, of course, to get to that scale.
12:23
So if we don't get it through the EU, how can we get it? So people are interested in speaking about those strategic topics with commissioners, with members of the parliament, and on top of following important files or important regulations. I think that naturally there is more and more interface, there is more and more dialogue. Maybe not at the speed we would like, but I think it's happening, that industry, I
12:49
I remember when I arrived, people were saying, oh, yes, you're so interested in Europe, but actually you're global. So Europe, yes. You're the last one to speak about the European level. I think those days are over.
13:03
I mean, in a new geopolitical context, we see the US, we see China, we see the rest of the world, and the question is, is Europe going to have a voice or not? I mean, we're all conscious of that. That's changing the dynamic, I think. It's more and more difficult, but Europe is more and more important and part of the solution. How to get there is complicated, but it will have to be done at European level or it won't happen.
13:27
You've very conveniently, naturally moved on to my third question within the answer to the second question, which is about the geopolitical landscape. And the key takeaway I've taken from listening to you is that
13:40
actually, given where the landscape is now, you're having to become more strategic. And I imagine as we progress in time, I can't see that changing at all. To your point, Europe kind of has to be at the table, the size and scale of what you're looking to achieve. It feels like the EU and Europe more broadly is intrinsically linked to that.
14:01
So it's really, really interesting to reflect on it. And I would say the observation I have from speaking to public affairs leaders here in Brussels and in London is that the ever-changing and arguably volatile geopolitical landscape is having an impact on public affairs. And broadly speaking, public affairs is having to become more strategic and arguably work closer and closer with senior leaders internally. Why don't we talk about AI?
14:29
and technology more broadly. I'm really interested in understanding or hearing from you about what your thoughts are on AI as a concept, but also what impact you think AI is going to have here in Brussels on the public affairs profession. It's a difficult question because it's moving as we speak.
14:52
Well, I referred previously to the fact that doing public affairs at EU level got more professional over the years, and at the same time that you had a wider range of topics, more strategic topics, more important topics. So if you compile those two trends, of course, you gather a huge amount of information.
15:14
And I think from that perspective, the digital tools are going to be of great support for all EU public affairs professionals. Because we're struggling, and I think I'm not the only one struggling to digest all this information which happens at each and every time. We're trying to cope with following social networks and at the same time reading massive amounts of papers. But we're only humans at the end of the day. So having efficient tools which can provide
15:43
screening of information, summary, helping us on briefing and trying to have better position papers more rapidly, and as well working on amendments, for example, of text, in very complicated text. It can only help already. It helps the legal functions quite extensively. So I think it's going to be of great support for
16:05
all what we have to do operationally, which is extremely, extremely good. It means as well that it will be a requirement to master those technologies, otherwise you're going to appear like badly informed or out of touch with what's happening in the current world. So AI is going to be, mastering AI is going to be a requirement and we'll have to get more efficient thanks to AI. But since we are speaking about influence and here,
16:33
I'm brainstorming as we speak, so I don't know where we're heading with this AI revolution. Maybe when you look at it, influence is quite often differentiation, right? You differentiate yourself and therefore you're able to make a difference in your influence. So it means that you will need to be at par with the best so that you get
16:55
you gather all this information and you treat them very efficiently. But everybody will be roughly at the same level. So you're not going to differentiate on the information anymore. And probably,
17:08
And to your point previously, because it's actually interesting to see that it's linked to the geopolitical context, probably it's going to be the bigger picture in the way you understand the world and of course, because it's at the core of what we're doing, building trusted relationships which are going to matter the most. I.e., you're not going to need to survive without AI, but I think that to make a difference and so that you don't look like an AI tool like the other or like...
17:35
the other 1,000 AI tools in this town. To differentiate yourself, you will need to have a better understanding of the big picture and be able to build trusted relationships over time, which is for me a constant. To sum it up, I think there's something which remains, which is the trust you build with stakeholders.
17:56
There is something which is a revolution, which is AI and the efficiency and everybody will need to raise its game to get there. There's probably something new, which is better understanding of the big picture and strategic positioning. And here it will require a lot of human brains and better connection with top management and strategy. So I think the links between strategy and public affairs are going to be quite interesting in the years to come. Absolutely.
18:25
there's quite a lot to unpack there. There's quite a lot I could just comment on just because I'm interested in it. A couple of highlights for me. The point you make around being able to operationalise AI is sometimes a point that gets overlooked in the discussion.
18:44
Because in layman's terms, it's just like, in some respects, using a new piece of technology. We're sat here in Brussels and both of us have got smartphones on the desk. Now, I'm not that confident in saying that I know exactly what my iPhone does. I imagine my iPhone has over 100 features, for example.
19:06
Am I competent in all 100 features of my iPhone? No, I'm not. I'm probably competent in 10% of that. And I think that how people in general, but also how public affairs as a profession works and operationalises AI and makes it efficient is something maybe the profession hasn't necessarily thought about. Because to your point, if you do it wrong,
19:29
or if you use the tools incorrectly, there are consequences and potentially reputational damage to that. So that's a really, really interesting point for me. The other point for me that is really interesting is around the relationships and the trust that you build with internal stakeholders and external stakeholders. That to me seems consistent now, consistent five, six years ago and will remain consistent
19:56
consistent in five years time, I get the sense that in theory, AI will give public affairs as a profession more time. Now I could be wrong on that, but that's the sense I get as we talk today and whether the profession and by extension public affairs functions spend that time with external stakeholders.
20:21
to differentiate themselves and deliver their message and land their message, or whether they spend the time with internal stakeholders. That's the bit I'm really interested in seeing pan out
20:33
I agree. First, on the operationalisation, maybe because I did some information systems in the past, but I always learned that you need to work on your organisation first and your IT tools afterwards. So I agree because AI is going to be very powerful. Your process needs to be right in the first place.
20:52
And I think that it will require some adjustment from a public affairs point of view because we're working in a very agile way. We will need to pause and look at the processes and how we manage the team and how we apply AI. It's not completely trivial in my point of view.
21:10
Definitely, we're going to save time, even if since the number of projects and topics are exploding, maybe not that much time. But yes, maybe we'll have more added value time, to your point, at least collectively as a team, indeed. And internal takes much more time. As we discussed previously, there is more interest.
21:32
at a higher level. So maybe that time is going to be a lot devoted to bring the different departments and work with them in a more collaborative way. Anyway, we have a transfer in the sense that, as I said, there were a few topics some 10 years ago and you were able to handle them and update the groups. There's a tendency now that the operational people want to be more aware and you need to be with them. You're rarely by yourself
22:00
So already it's changing, but I don't know if the fact that we are going to use AI more is going to require us to be more present as human beings to build this trusted relationship with external. I'm sorry, but I don't know which both internal and external will get the upper stage of this added value time.
22:24
I think that's the interesting thing because I don't know either and I imagine maybe if we have this conversation, maybe if we have this conversation I should say in two years time, it'd be interesting to see how things have developed over that period.
22:38
In terms of what the next two years, three years look like here in Brussels for lobbyists, I lose track of how many lobbyists there are in terms of the number of thousands, but obviously there's a lot of people here that are intrinsically linked to the European Union. Do you have any other concluding views on how the profession might evolve over the next couple of years?
23:03
I don't know. I think we need an evolution of the EU. We really do need it. And sometimes I wonder if a bubble is able to revolutionise itself.
23:14
maybe we need some external pressure to make the bubble evolve. What I mean is that we are all in the system and we are all in the system. So in a sense, it's kind of cosy that the system is continuing, right? You know what you have to do, you belong to a role, to a place,
23:34
Rules are very well defined. You have think tankers, you have lobbyists, you have the institutions. But I think it's not enough. Europe needs to raise its game. I mean, it's obvious.
23:44
So how to raise its game? Maybe it's outside of Brussels that those things need to happen, in that we are collectively getting to the next stage. Are we able as head of public affairs to contribute? I think so, because we are the core in terms of interface between what the industry wants and what the political institutions are trying to do.
24:07
So we can contribute. I do hope there is a political shock to move Europe forward, to move the EU forward. In that shock, the public affairs team will be able to drive the change and enable patience on the side of the industry and push for more energy on the side of the political institutions. So I hope there is an external element that puts energy into the system that kind of wish
24:34
we shuffle the bubble and that we're able to use that energy to galvanise what's happening here. Of course, the biggest risks would be irrelevance. So we really need the shock of energy. And I think it's going to be interesting if it happens. And I hope so. I'm really interested here. So in terms of the evolution of the EU,
24:56
In layman's terms, does that mean you would like to see the EU become more efficient? Or would you like it to be reformed? Or a bit of both?
25:05
Probably a little bit of both. Now, how you do that is obviously up to the politicians and not up to a lobbyist. But I think we need to move much quicker. I remember 10 years ago, we were already speaking about the EU's strategic autonomy and why the EU needed to invest in defence and space programmes and key technologies.
25:29
and to get more independent. And we were explaining to the rest of the world that if we were not investing in those technologies, we would be in trouble potentially sometimes. And of course people thought they would not be trouble, that the world would be okay and accept climate change, which I think was already on people's agenda. So now we have this new geopolitical context and we see that we were not fast enough.
25:51
Had we invested more in key technologies, had we decided to build our autonomy more, we would be in better shape.
26:00
So I do think that we are quite good in, us Europeans, to make analysis, to discuss the trends, to decide that those are the things to be done, but we are very bad at implementing them in a very efficient way. So how do you implement in a very efficient way? It's about efficiency of the system.
26:21
But that may require as well potentially a reform of the system because the way you decide and the way you act, at some point, if it's too cumbersome, then you cannot achieve. It's like a company, right? In a corporation, at some point, you try to push the systems in terms of
26:39
cross-coding and trying to find tweaks to be more efficient and invest in new tools. But sometimes this is the way you are organised which creates issues and bottlenecks and you need to change it. In my opinion, there's probably a bit of both. It may be difficult, but it's necessary.
26:57
I imagine we could talk about the efficiencies of political institutions for longer than we have time on this podcast. At the same time, I think in terms of what the future of public affairs looks like in Brussels, I think that is a massively important thing for everyone to, at the bare minimum, be aware of. So thank you very much. We're going to move to a couple of light questions to finish.
27:21
My first question, I guess it slightly follows on from what we've just been discussing, but what would be your one non-negotiable piece of advice for someone who is starting their career in public affairs here in Brussels?
27:34
The luxury of public affairs, if I compare it to other functions, is that you have a bit of time, which is the consequence of inefficiency sometimes, as we've just discussed. But at least you're not rushed into short-term actions or short-term decisions. So I would advise to work files
27:59
to be strong on your knowledge of your topics, of your files, and don't rush into the external side. Well, everybody's rushing to the external side, but I do think that if you're a beginner, it's important to understand what you want, where you can influence, understand your files in depth, and get your arguments right. And that's something that is unique to public affairs. You can do it because you have time.
28:26
Usually you don't have time in a corporation. You have to do both at the same time and that's why the beginning is so difficult. The beginning is difficult because you need to understand the different system and how it works and how the decisions are taken. But you have the ability to work on your files in a very extensive manner and it will make a difference. I think this investment upfront makes a difference.
28:48
Absolutely. In terms of Brussels, there's obviously lots of networking events. There's lots of events broadly. Do you have a favourite event that you've been to recently? Or do you know any organisations that host very good events out there? I think there are plenty of very good events. What I like is actually more the diversity of them. I think it's...
29:13
It's very good that you can listen to very experienced people, very knowledgeable people about a topic. Of course, the difficulty is how to select them. And I must say it's more driven by my agenda than it is driven by picking the most interesting one, even if, of course, I try to do a few. So I will do the Bruegel one this week because I found it quite interesting.
29:36
I think ECFR is making good events as well, but there are sectorial things which are very good that we are organising. So you have this ability to have the big picture, to focus on a sector. My frustration about events is what's next? I mean, there's a tendency to speak a lot with very competent people and learn a lot, but there's a problem of
30:03
What do we do with it? And this is really where I think, compared to what we said before, here it needs to change.
30:11
I mean, if we put the brightest of Europeans on a specific topic on stage, and that they discuss, they have a full discussion. First, it needs to be to the point and less politically correct. And second, we need actions to those people convening because time is money, convening people of that level is a luxury. We're still as European have wonderful brains and wonderful knowledge. We shouldn't waste it.
30:35
So I hope whatever the organisers, I hope the next wave of events is about how we make the best out of these events and drive decisions out of these events. Third question: do you have a favourite MEP? Oh no, I cannot!
30:57
I cannot. No, there are plenty of people who are. I would prefer to describe my favourite MEP as a profile. For me, those are the people who take the time to listen to industry and not pretend they're doing it, but really trying to make a difference.
31:17
And there are plenty of them, plenty of people who are really working hard on their files. And that's a tough job being between Brussels, Strasbourg and your constituency.
31:30
working on the files knowing them and trying to make a difference and keep your words. There was a tendency when I was, of people saying a lot of nice things, then nothing was happening. And you have people who try really to make their best and they make a difference. Maybe that's a small difference, but at least it's consistent with what they said. And for me, it's highly appreciated. - Absolutely. And then final question, links slightly to Strasbourg is,
31:58
Do you have any unforgettable plenary sessions that you've experienced? I like the State of the Union speech sessions. I think it's a shame that it's not shared with the citizens on a broader scale because I think it's the moment where people
32:16
People at the top of the EU institutions try to see what's going to be really important for Europe in the years to come. And you have this plenary and all these 27 different nations are represented and listening to the president of the Commission asking questions. I think it's a very important moment.
32:36
to understand how Europe is looking at itself and what it will try to achieve. And that always impressed me, the size of the room, the people in the room in the topics which are at stake. Absolutely. Nathalie, thank you so much. It's been really, really good. Thank you for hosting me here in...
32:56
in sunny Brussels. It's not always sunny when I come here, but it definitely is today. - It is today. - The view is fantastic. It's been really, really interesting. There's many things that we could probably make another episode on, which we may do, or I may ask you to again. So thank you very much. It's been absolutely brilliant. So my thanks to Natalie. My thanks as always to Oli Foster, who's our in-house producer.
33:18
Perhaps you have a view on the future of public affairs, either in the UK or here in Brussels, and you'd like to share with us, or you'd even like to add to the discussion yourself. Please follow the link in the show's bio, which will direct you to our feedback page for Helio Intelligence, which is the home of DeHavilland and Forefront.