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Matt and Sean talk about Matt’s geothermal heat pump experience, digging wells, and the meaning of “young.”
Watch the Undecided with Matt Ferrell episode, How My Geothermal Heat Pump Really Performed (2 Years) https://youtu.be/DTb7TKJzr5g?list=PLnTSM-ORSgi7uzySCXq8VXhodHB5B5OiQ
Matt and Sean talk about Matt’s geothermal heat pump experience, digging wells, and the meaning of “young.”
Watch the Undecided with Matt Ferrell episode, How My Geothermal Heat Pump Really Performed (2 Years) https://youtu.be/DTb7TKJzr5g?list=PLnTSM-ORSgi7uzySCXq8VXhodHB5B5OiQ
Follow us on X: @stilltbdfm @byseanferrell @mattferrell or @undecidedmf
Undecided with Matt Ferrell: https://www.youtube.com/undecidedmf
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Creators and Guests
What is Still To Be Determined?
Join Matt Ferrell from the YouTube Channel, Undecided, and his brother Sean Ferrell as they discuss electric vehicles, renewable energy, smart technologies, and how they impact our lives. Still TBD continues the conversation from the Undecided YouTube channel.
Sean Ferrell: Today on Still To Be Determined, we're talking about youth. Hey, everybody, I'm Sean Ferrell. I'm a writer. I write some sci fi, write some horror, write some stuff for kids, and I'm just generally curious about technology. And luckily for me, my brother. Is that Matt from Undecided with Matt Ferrell, which takes a look at emerging tech and its impact on our lives. And it's funny I should mention him. Guess who's here. Why, yes, it's the aforementioned Matt from Undecided. Matt, how are you today?
Matt Ferrell: I'm doing pretty well. How you doing?
Sean Ferrell: It's been a full morning. Full morning full of. As I was telling Matt before we started recording, and then I was like, heck, I'll just tell this story. During the recording, I was prepping for this very conversation, which involves me, obviously going to YouTube, watching Matt's video, looking at the comments, pulling comments for conversation, all that fun stuff. And my computer just started saying, oh, something happened. I'm shutting down. And it would just shut down. It would start back up, and I would try it again, and it would say, something happened, I'm shutting down.
And they did that in a loop. And then finally it started back up, and I got a blue screen, and it was just like, you got to find your recovery key. So not to brag, but now I know how to find a recovery key. And got it start back up. And started to see now messages popping up on the screen saying, you gotta figure out what's causing the conflict. And I tried to do what I had been doing before one more time. And spotted at the bottom of the screen, as it was shutting down for the briefest of moments, something was saying, here's what failed. It was like just the suggestion of a whisper. So I pulled out my iPhone and I recorded my screen as it collapsed. I felt like I was in Blade Runner. I was, like, closing in on that, enhancement. And I scrub the video and discover it says, here's what's failed. And it tells me a code. And so I go to the Google machine and I type in that code, and the Google machine says, here's what that is. It is the sound driver. And I'm like, okay, piecing together, like, what had I been doing? Why is it failing at the same thing every time? It was failing whenever I was going to YouTube, and I was like, okay, it's YouTube specifically. So a little bit more Googling. Oh, if you get this kind of failure, it means something in your sound card. A driver is corrupted, so go into this thing, look at what's doing this. Look for your drivers, delete drivers, start back up drivers, will reinstall, look for latest drivers. And I hate, I hate drivers. I hate the whole system. I hate that you go to the machine and you're like, check and see if this driver is the most recent version. And the computer has a little progress bar that doesn't even fill up. If you're gonna lie to me, computer, lie. Well, that's all I ask. It has a little progress bar that doesn't even fill up all the way. And it goes, oh, this is fine. This is a new driver.
What are you looking for? And I'm like, something isn't right. So I look at the list of drivers and I see on the list the EarPods I was using. And I'm like, I wasn't using these earpods before. I got them out of my pocket because they were more convenient than going and finding other earphones that I usually use on this computer. I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna delete the drivers for these Bluetooth earpods That fixed it. So the moral of the story is Sean can't have Bluetooth earpods on this computer. It's that simple. Tried using earpods and the computer.
Matt Ferrell: The moral of the story is, the moral of the story is for me, it's Sean needs to buy a Mac.
Sean Ferrell: I tell you, man, like, it's like Microsoft goes out of its way to just say we really don't know what we're doing here. But anyway, so that's been my morning. So after chewing a corner off of my kitchen table as I was trying to figure out how to fix this thing, then found a moment of Zen, calm myself down and I'm ready to talk about Matt's most recent. This is his discussion about his heat pump that he has now lived with for several years after having installed it in his brand new or as he points out, not so brand new house, he now lives in a run down shack. But before we get into that, episode 284 of this podcast had some comments that I wanted to share. And Matt, we can chat about these just a bit. We talked last time and this, it's been a couple of weeks because Matt recorded last time we had our conversation, we talked about the weird spot on my nose. Matt then immediately left the country. He, he was out of the country.
Matt Ferrell: I fled to Japan.
Sean Ferrell: He fled to Japan. We'll probably talk about that in a little bit. But he fled to Japan and then when he returned we sat back down to have a conversation in the meantime, people jumped into the comments on that episode in which we talked about the weird spot on my nose, which I was pointing out because it was right there in front of God and everybody. It was nothing big. Dermatologists froze something off of my nose. That's all it was, as you can all tell. Oh, I'm beautiful again. Look at this. Look at this visage. Have you ever seen anything more handsome? I think not. But there was this comment that jumped out from David Taylor. Coming from a retired men's perspective, it is refreshing to hear young men talking about their health. Many older men have difficulty in sharing their personal health issues with. Well done, and keep this discussion going. David, thank you for calling us young men.
Matt Ferrell: Yes, we are not young men.
Sean Ferrell: But I read this and I couldn't help but laugh and then say, well, gosh, okay, maybe we're doing something right. So I can't help but wonder what percentage of our audience is going, young men? Yeah, Young young men. And I got a lot of white. I got a lot of white in this beard. And if both you and I tried to grow our hair to our shoulders the way it was when we were in our 20s, well, that's not a good look. Yeah. Just people would start wondering when Edgar Winter regrouped.
Matt Ferrell: The two things I get all the time, Sean, when people meet me in person is, you're taller than I expected. And then when they find out how old I actually am, it's like, wait, you're how old? I got a baby face.
Sean Ferrell: Yes, the baby face runs strong in your family. And I guess that raises questions about how I've been living. But anyway, thank you, Dave, for the comment. And we do like. I wanted to also mention this because it is something that does fall both within the context of society at large and how men largely deal with health issues, but also this podcast in particular. One thing that we haven't touched on a whole lot is, and it's probably born of the focus of Matt's channel, but health, health technology, advancements in health technology and how those things could impact our lives is not something we've gotten into super deep because of the focus of Matt's Channel. We. We could touch on that more, and if there's interest there, we could touch on that. That would be something that could be very interesting and practical and useful for all of us. But also societally, culturally, men tend to just kind of like, grin and bear it. If they do go to their doctor, they don't talk about what happened at the doctors. But that is something that Matt and I, I do know that we do, personally, both of us, we've never really talked about it in these ways, but I feel like we are both very open with health issues and talking about these things. And it is important to do because the simplicity of saying, oh, I've gone through a thing, or I've done a thing that was difficult, but I got through it and I'm fine, or I face daily challenges, these are the kinds of things we should be sharing because otherwise we're all operating in a silo and feeling in certain circumstances, it can lead to you feeling like you're alone in that experience and you don't know how to relieve that strain. So, David, thank you for the comment.
It was received both as a actual deep compliment in the form of, yeah, we're doing something that is important, talking about health, men's health and people's health in general. But also I took it as kind of a funny compliment from a young man. So thank you for that, David. Then there was this from Zenzapper82 coming in from the other angle. As a fellow old, I was also going to just ignore the thing on your nose. In fact, it's good to see I'm not the only one mutating. Yes, Zen Zapper, when you reach, I think David's perspective is looking at us and saying, he's a retired man. I don't know how old David is, but he's looking at us and saying, oh, these are young men. And then Zen Zapper is looking at us and saying, yes, I have also reached the age where our bodies turn against us. So thank you, Zen Zapper, for the comment.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah, Sean. Not to sidetrack us too long, Sean, but when I was just in Japan doing a lot of walking, don't do this much walking, like 10 miles a day. The first day there, exhausted, second day, get out of bed, put my shoes on. We start going outside, and I can barely walk on my left foot because plantar fasciitis just hammered home on my left foot. I can barely walk. So the first half of my second day was basically going to drugstores in Japan trying to find insoles for a shoe that would help me out. It was all I kept thinking was, you hit a certain age and you start falling apart.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah. What's this sitting right next to the leg of my desk? I don't know. Oh. Oh, goodness. Oh, yes. This is my plantar fasciitis boot.
Matt Ferrell: There you go.
Sean Ferrell: Yep. Plantar fasciitis. A young man's Game, let's have that T shirt. And I say that as we are recording and guess what's going on right outside my front door. Well yes, the New York City Marathon. Thousands upon thousands of people running and I sit there on my front stoop watching them go by and thinking you sons of ***, you. I wave my plantar fasciitis boot at them. Paul G. Jumped into the comments from last time to pick up a conversation we've been having about AgriSolar and its impact on growth and solar production. And this has been a kind of recurring theme. I think it's a really cool concept. I would love to see it expand more here in the US Paul G writes, research into agrisolar installations. Livestock grazing under solar panels in New Zealand has found an increase in production due to the grass being more nutritious because of improved environmental conditions. Less frost damage, less UV damage, more moisture retained in the soil. I think that's so cool. It's just such a simple thing. You take solar panels and you effectively recreate a little bit of what a wild growth area would look like. You would have in wild growth, some taller plants, maybe some trees, you'd have grass underneath. Create the, the biome doing biome things and, and yes we cut all that down and we grow things in farms because we need lots of food. But when you can figure out a way to kind of recreate that biome environment, healthier livestock, probably happier livestock. Think about those poor cows standing out in the sun. Yeah, you don't think about UV rays affecting the grass and the cattle but come on, give them some shade. And then this from Babarudra from of the channel writes in to say about the zinc battery discussion in which Matt's video had described a recently recognized process where a high voltage zap to an older zinc battery can actually help heal the battery from aging processes like dendrites that affect long term performance.
And Babarudra writes maybe hopefully the research in zinc batteries will will also open up more research into other chemistry batteries having similar effects. And by the way, congrats Sean. I believe that's congratulations on my nuptials. Yes, I got married a couple of three, four weeks ago. Beginning of this month or beginning of last month. Time is a construct everybody. Anyway, thank you Babarudra.
Matt Ferrell: That's right.
Sean Ferrell: I appreciate the congratulations. And Matt, it raises a question about this discovery basically goes counter to a long held. I wouldn't call it a belief but just the scientifically understood experience of what happens to batteries over time. And then this experience of, oh, if we do this, it fundamentally changes what we know about this kind of battery. I'm wondering, have you seen any ripplings in the discussions around whether or not this could in fact be replicated for other battery types or is that something potentially that would be much further down the road that people aren't beginning to be able to get into that research yet?
Matt Ferrell: Yeah, we did not come across anything like that in the research that showed this is giving rumblings in other chemistries, but it doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. My, my hunch would be that's years down the road or it could be six months down the road where a different research group just suddenly discovers something similar about lithium ion. So, or lithium metal batteries or something like that. So it's, there's. Each one of these chemistries has its own challenges and own pitfalls and own benefits. And so it's kind of like those research groups that are specializing in those, those fields are going to be the ones that will most likely stumble upon those things that we thought we knew. And I like that you call that. It's not a belief. It's like we knew what we knew and it was just like we thought we knew it and then they just stumbled upon this new, oh wait, no, that, that's not the way we thought it worked. So it's, it's interesting to see that this is opening up new possibilities potentially for other chemistries as well. But nothing in the research we found is showing that right now.
Sean Ferrell: Right. Finally there was this from Colin Keyser who jumped in the comments to say snicker, I suppose some of us should thank you for telling us about the latest technology that is actually available at Amazon when we purchase examples and try them out for ourselves. My lunchbox sized ecoflow battery with briefcase sized folding solar panels was quite handy during a windstorm that knocked out our electric power and dropped a tree on our roof. Thanks for keeping up, keeping on and keeping us up to date. I just thought that was a really cool like footnote to some of the stuff that goes on in the channel of us talking about various technologies and the things you look at at Undecided. These can be a part of your lived experience, even if simply in the form of, I mean, come on, a lunchbox sized battery with little solar panels that you fold out and somebody was able to like, I don't know what Colin, I mean Colin, jump into the comments on this video, let us know exactly what were you running off this? I could imagine probably a couple of lights, maybe a radio. Nothing big. But if it kept you feeling safe, comfortable, and in touch with what's going on in the world outside you, I think that's what a terrific purchase for something that you probably store in a closet.
Matt Ferrell: Yes.
Sean Ferrell: And it doesn't take up much space. Yep. On now to our discussion about Matt's most recent. Not what I expected. How my geothermal heat pump really performed after two years. Cut to the chase, Matt. It stinks. No. Okay. The comments on this one I found interesting because this video seemed to draw like moths to a flame. Other people who also have geothermal and a lot of the commentary. It was kind of hard for me to find comments to discuss with you because a lot of people were like, well, here's how deep my well is. Here's what kind of prices I see. Here's like, it was a lot of alsos in the conversation.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah.
Sean Ferrell: So.
Matt Ferrell: Which is awesome.
Sean Ferrell: Which is awesome.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah.
Sean Ferrell: Which. Which then raises a question for me. How widespread is this at this point? Do you have any kind of understanding as far as is this something that has been on the upswing since the 60s and 70s, which is when I imagine this technology was really kind of like starting to become available in the United States? And is it more widespread in other parts of the world and then here in the US because in the US I know that there is extreme dependence upon, like, well, it's easy enough to put in a pipeline and bring you oil or gas and then you're done.
Matt Ferrell: Yep.
Sean Ferrell: But in other parts of the world where that dependence on oil and gas didn't run as quite as deep, how much more widespread is this kind of technology?
Matt Ferrell: You just hit the nail on the head. The U.S. you know, during the energy crisis of the 70s, it was like a fork in the road. It was kind of like other areas of the world, like in Europe, it was like they went down the path of we have to get as energy efficient as we possibly can get because these prices are out of control. In the US it was like, oh, well, prices have dropped again. So everything's fine, Everything's fine. We don't have to worry about that. Let's put some natural gas lines in and pull more oil in and drill more oil. So here we didn't take that path where, like, areas of Europe did. So geothermal systems, like in Norway and some areas of, like, northern Europe, it is incredibly common to have systems like what I've got. Then you can come over here and it is not common at all. The most common thing here is A natural gas furnace or oil. In the Northeast, oil is still shockingly. Every couple of weeks I see an oil truck drive down my street filling somebody's, you know, oil system in their house. You and I lived in one in upstate New York at one point.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: The smell of that thing when it got filled, not fun. It's not common here, but it's becoming more common. Heat pumps in general have become a lot more popular in the United States, especially in the Northeast, air source. But geothermal is still kind of a niche player at this point.
Sean Ferrell: A lot of the discussion from people who were interested in the topic but did not know how to embrace, actually pursuing this was another set of conversation that I saw. Like Brian Brady, who said, I live in a house that was built in 1890. The idea of retrofitting causes dread. But I do have a visible concrete circle on my basement floor, which I suspect may be a capped well. If that means the solution, using a vertical collector in the house and potentially saving a bit of stress, I'm willing to investigate this as a true upgrade. I love that you are in New England because our climate is the same. Thank you for sharing your story and data. So house that was built in 1890. Am I wrong in thinking that it doesn't really matter the age of the house because. Because what you're doing is more about getting into the ground. That would be the more critical question of can you get into the ground safely and deep enough to be able to take advantage of this? Because once it's into the house, to quote a former politician here in the United States, isn't it all pipes? Isn't it just like a series of tubes? It's just a series of tubes. And the things. It's just tubes, isn't it? Am I wrong in thinking that at a certain point, a geothermal heat pump could plug into whatever the house currently has or most houses could be retrofitted, not super expensively. In order to take advantage of a new geothermal heat pump. Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: Yes and no. It kind of depends on, like, what your heating system inside your house is like.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: Most houses that you and I have lived in in the United States tend to have forced air. So you have duct work, all that kind of stuff to do. Forced air. If that's what you have, it's a fairly easy flip to go to a geothermal system.
Sean Ferrell: Right.
Matt Ferrell: If what you have is radiator systems, like in your house, then it gets a little more dicey, tricky. But it's still potentially doable because there are heat pump boiler systems that could support a radiator system. But most of the ones I know of would be more air source, not ground source. But it doesn't mean that you couldn't necessarily do it ground source. So in that case, for his 1890 home, I'm guessing it's a radiator system, not an air source like blowing through vents, hot air system. And if that's the case and he needed to flip into duct work, that could be a kind of a nightmare. Yeah, but if he was able to find a system that could plug into it like a. As a heat pump boiler system, then it should be a fairly easy change to do.
Sean Ferrell: Best of luck, Brian. If you do end up going that route or find anything that you think would be interesting for us to share, let us know. We'd love to talk about it. There was this from Sora Kagami who says, Matt, thank you so much for sharing how the geothermal heat pump setup has gone for you after these two years. It's very impressive. All the planning and delays became well worth it. I was expecting to hear about unexpected problems cropping up or numbers not working out as expected due to various factors. Instead, it sounds like things went well, at least as well as you planned. Is that true? Did they go. Did they go as well as you planned? And what sort of headaches did you have that didn't really impact the data of the experience? To go back to how young are we? One of both of our favorite films is Mr. Blanding Builds His Dream House, which is an old karaoke film. For those who haven't seen it, strongly encourage watching it. I think it's probably available for free on YouTube. It's out there somewhere, so have at it. But it includes an ongoing joke in which a well is being dug for the family home and. And they, during the digging of the basement, go down 8ft and hit water. They hit a spring. And where they're trying to dig the well, they have to go down. I forget how deep it is like something like 400ft to get to the same water. And when questioned about why the well digger had to go down much further than the basement did to hit the same water, the gentleman who's digging the well, whose name is Mr. Tosander, says, well, as far as I can tell, over here the water was down over around about 8ft. And over here it's down around about 400ft.
So the apples to apples moment for you of you were digging a well for your geothermal and you had to go quite deep yeah, other than that kind of hair pulling, when are we going to get to where we're trying to go Moment. What other things did you experience that just didn't work into the video? Because it wasn't the point, like, to.
Matt Ferrell: Kind of address that and what sorrow was bringing up, which is the numbers are working out exactly like I expected. But it's more about the user experience that there are differences. And I did bring one of them up in the video, which was the temperature. Like I was not expecting. Oh, you just kind of set the temperature and just let it ride 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 a year. It's like I'm used to, oh, you set it to 74 degrees Fahrenheit in the day. When you go to bed, it drops down to 68. And you do all this stuff and like, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Geothermal. No, no, no, no, don't do that. Just like set it and just walk away. Don't look at it. Just leave it alone and it'll be just fine and it'll use less energy than any system you've ever had in your life. Just don't even look at it. Just don't even think about it. That part to me was, like, wild. But that, that I did put in the video and I kind of glanced on it, which was like, it's not necessarily the geothermal's fault, but, like, just the way my house heats and cools, like where I'm sitting right now, tends to run a little cooler in the winter and a little hotter in the summer than the rest of the house. And I think it's partly related to the fact that this is not the same insulation as the rest of the house. And this system that, because I'm built off the back of the garage and then the ductwork might not be like, at the end of the line, so the pressure might not be right in this room. So it's not quite getting enough air. So I think there's things at play with this room that's kind of like making the user experience of it not as nice as I would like it to be. And if I could do it over again, I would have done it a different way. But it's not a knock against the geothermal system.
So it's kind of like, in a nutshell, things are working out as good in some cases or even better in other cases than I was expecting going in. And the things that are the. I do that differently. It's Not a knock on geothermal. It's specific. It would have happened with an air source heat pump. It would have happened. You know what I mean? Like there's things about the way the house is that are just the way the house is. So that to me is what was the most surprising thing about all this.
Sean Ferrell: There was this from a commenter whose user handle is only a16416. Thank you a for jumping in. He writes, I love the concept of geothermal, but the crazy upfront cost makes it hard to be the best solution for me. I, I got an air Source Heat Pump Mr. Cool brand ordered off Amazon. It's a whole house heat pump heats and cools my house all year long. Had it as low as negative 17 degrees and it was still keeping my house nice and toasty in Colorado. So that's awesome. Air source heat pump versus geothermal. What's the big difference here? And is the, he mentions the cost is the general cost of an air source. Air source cheaper and easier to install and what are the, when you compare the two against each other, what are the benefits of one over the other?
Matt Ferrell: I'm team heat pump. Like I don't, I honestly don't care what kind of heat pump it is. Heat pumps are just awesome technology. But like when it comes to geothermal versus air source, air source is definitely cheaper upfront, full stop. I don't care how you're comparing it, it's going to cost you less money to install it. And the only reason that geothermal systems can get down to a similar price point right now is usually through incentives and tax rebates and things like that. That's the only way that you can get the cost down to a similar rank region. So like here in Massachusetts they have the, I can't remember what they call it, the heat pump loan, you know, heat loan program where it's like this, it's a 0% interest loan that you can do to get geothermal or air source or anything that's super energy efficient. And then there's also state rebates on geothermal systems that help knock the cost down and there's federal rebates that knock the cost down. And sometimes utilities will add their own discounts that will knock the cost down. So when you take all that into account, they can sometimes be very comparable for the upfront cost. When that happens, you need to do it because it's like over the lifetime of running that system, the geothermal systems are way more energy efficient than an air source. And part of the problem is not problem. The reason is air source heat pumps are pulling heat out of the air. So if it's negative 17 degrees Celsius or negative 17 degrees Fahrenheit in the air and you're trying to heat your home, the heat pump's going to have to work extra hard. So it's not going to be as energy efficient the colder it gets in. Some heat pumps just won't work at that temperature range because of the fluid that's inside the heat pump system itself.
I don't get too into the technical details, but there's a fluid and a refrigerant that's inside of a heat pump, inside of a refrigerator air conditioner, and they have temperature ranges that they work well in and different fluids will have better temperature results lower. So there's new cold climate heat pumps that will work to negative 20, negative 30, sometimes negative 40 degrees Fahrenheit. And you have to make sure you're buying the right one for your region or you'll end up in a situation where it's like your heat pump is going to struggle to keep up. So it sounds like this Mr. Cool brand that A got for his house was perfect for what he needed. In his case, it's not going to be as energy efficient at negative 17 degrees Fahrenheit as it would be at 30 degrees Fahrenheit, but it's still keeping his house cold, I mean his house warm. And it's going to be doing it in a really good way. So over the course of the year, his system is going to be fantastic, save him money. It's like it's going to be very energy efficient. But compare that to my geothermal system. It's going to beat his system because I'm pulling the temperature from the ground and there's less variation. So even when it's negative 70 degrees in the air, the ground is still 50 degrees Fahrenheit 400ft down. So it's like I don't have to worry about the crazy air temperature shifts.
So my system just works pretty much consistently most of the year.
Sean Ferrell: Right? Thank you for that breakdown. Finally, there was some confusion around pricing. A conversation between several of the commenters revolved around this comment From Schilling, who wrote $39,000 for an air source heat pump. What the heck? I'm editing for language appropriate for children. What the heck? That's insane. I just installed a 2 ton unit for a little over 2000 and then J Brew jumped in to say I was shocked by that too. Mom just had a new system install at $4,000 and 31 cents a kilowatt hour. It's 13 cents here in South Louisiana. At that rate, I'd never break even. I note that shilling says an air source heat pump. Is that the key confusion here is that they think you're talking about air source as opposed to geothermal, because it's.
Matt Ferrell: If that's one of that, it's one of them.
Sean Ferrell: Okay, yeah. What's the other thing?
Matt Ferrell: The other part of the problem here, Sean, is I think people lose this nuance. And I've brought it up, I've mentioned it in my videos. This was a brand new install. So that's $39,000 for the heat pump. That's in the mechanical room. All the duct work. All the duct work. If you're getting a new replacement for my system, it would not cost $39,000. It might cost you 10. Like when I lived in my old house, you know, my old house, we moved into our old house and we had to replace the furnace because it was dying. And we didn't switch to an air source heat pump. We kept it. It was natural gas. So we got a new natural gas system. But it was a high efficiency system. We put in. It cost us about $9,000 just to swap it out. It was not putting in ductwork. It was not doing all that other stuff. There's a natural gas furnace for about $9,000. That's Massachusetts prices. So it's like it's going to be different depending where you live. $39,000 for all the ductwork and the labor and all the installation costs of doing a brand new system. This is not a replacement system. And that's why I think people keep missing. On top of which, it wasn't air source, it was ground source, which has additional costs.
Sean Ferrell: Additional cost. Because you're digging.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah. Yes. Because you're doing a massive drilling project in your backyard.
Sean Ferrell: So I hope if, for those who might have been confused by prices, if that was part of what was leading your confusion, I hope that that was clarifying for everybody because we don't want to have these conversations. Matt does not want to share these videos and sow confusion or make video content that leaves people with so many blank spots that they can't follow what he's trying to. Trying to lay out for everybody. So, everybody, thank you for your comments. All of that, as you can tell, clearly drives the content of this program. We look forward to your comments on this discussion. Let us know if there's something you wish we touched on, or if something we said raises a question for you, jump in and share that with us. Don't forget, while you're doing that, liking, subscribing, sharing with your friends, those are all very easy ways for you to support the program. We appreciate that support. But if you want to support us more directly, you can click the join button on YouTube or you can go to StillTBD.fm, click the become a Supporter button there. Both those ways allow you to throw coins at our heads. We appreciate the welts. And then we get down to the heavy, heavy business, talking about how deep into the earth Matt is hoping to tunnel. Thank you everybody for taking the time to watch or listen, and we'll talk to you next time.