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What if you’re not alone and definitely not crazy for longing for a healthier world? What if your tribe is out there also searching for ways to navigate this tumultuous time in history? This podcast is for people looking for wisdom and courage to take a stand and plant seeds of change – with purpose and joy.
Come join us as we explore the rich web of life and our being – who we are and what we wish to become. We humans are gardeners; creators and guardians of life, of connections, of stories, and of the change we wish to see in the world. Step inside the Human Greenhouse to get inspired and nourished, so you can shine your unique light on this precious Earth – we need you!
The Human Greenhouse podcast is hosted by Tatjana Harttung and graced by wonderful humans with something on their mind and in their hearts to share.
[00:00:00] Tatjana: Welcome to this episode of the Human Greenhouse podcast. Uh, today is my pleasure to welcome Rebecca Bratspies. Uh, Rebecca is a professor at, CUNY School of Law and the director of the Center for Urban Environment Reform. Welcome to the podcast, Rebecca.
[00:00:18] Rebecca: Thank you. I'm delighted to be here with you.
[00:00:20] Tatjana: Wonderful. So we're gonna dive into a couple different topics today, but I know that you feel particularly called, uh, to, uh, a div, you know, a particular kind of work, uh, both in terms of, you know, your scholar, uh, your background, but also as a human being. What is it that you're called to at this time?
[00:00:37] Rebecca: Well, my work focuses on ideas of environmental justice and the intersection of environmental protection with human rights. And for those of you who aren't familiar with the term of environmental justice, what that means is that everyone has a right to breathe clean air. Drink clean water and live on land that is not toxic and going to make them sick.
[00:01:00] And unfortunately we don't have that in the world right now. We don't have that in the world. We don't have that in New York where I live. We don't have that in my neighborhood. Even here in New York City, like the, whether you scope in to a very small area or scope out to the world, what we see is profound environmental injustice and environmental racism.
[00:01:23] And, um, what we see is that the pollution loads are distributed on a profoundly unequal or unequal, way. And that distribution is highly racialized.
[00:01:38] Tatjana: And, and what's been driving that, that distribution of, of inequality? I.
[00:01:42] Rebecca: Well, it's a combination. A lot of it was intentional. You know, if you look at just as an example, that affects where you live and where I live. If you think about the, the global petroleum industry, the way that oil is extracted is extremely dirty, extremely toxic. The way that it is refined is extremely dirty, extremely toxic, the way that it's burned releases all kinds of, pollution into the air.
[00:02:11] Now, if you think about where oil extraction occurs, and you think about the, the parts of here in the United States, the parts of the United States, if you think about in Europe, um, the offshore extraction, right? It is a little bit different offshore. But if you think about, um, what happens in, um, African states like Nigeria, what you see is that, um, people of color, particularly people who are political, religious, or ethnic minorities in their.
[00:02:41] Society are the most overburdened by the dirty processes. If you look at where the petroleum refining takes place, the refineries are located in communities of color, poor communities. If you look at where the electricity is generated, again, you see that the power plants are located in minority communities.
[00:03:05] And if you look at where the roads are, the highways, the truck traffic, it is steered through poor communities, communities of color, and that is pretty much universal. And in part, that's who has power in society, who matters in the eyes of decision makers and who can be sacrificed. And that's what we're trying to change because nobody can be sacrificed, no community should be a sacrifice zone.
[00:03:32] We are all entitled to these basic human rights about. A healthy environment, a clean environment, clean air, clean water,
[00:03:42] Tatjana: It's really interesting because I think that that also explains right, this direct link between environmental justice and social justice. That, that there are particular groups who are living, breathing, being impacted by pollution. Um, and that are, you know, behind the curve, straight off because they are living in communities that are just really badly affected as opposed to other groups that are not in the middle of that.
[00:04:08] Um, and and don't have a relationship with it on a day-to-day basis.
[00:04:11] Rebecca: I, I call those communities unburdened communities, And the fact that that isn't even a word in English tells you how blind we are to the way that we're distributing the pollution load in our society and the burdens that are associated with the economic activities that we engage in, and the lifestyle activities that we engage in.
[00:04:34] People who live in areas that aren't burdened by pollution think that's natural and normal, and it should be. But in fact, the reason that they can live in communities that aren't burdened by pollution is because other communities are overburdened. So all of the burdens are shifted away from those privileged communities, towards the communities that are, um, less privileged with less wealth, with, um, less political power, and, um, burdened by racism and other problems.
[00:05:07] Tatjana: Yeah, it's really interesting that, because I, I only also just came across the, the term unburdened, but, but there's such a truth to that. I think, you know, when you look at the media at the moment, um, here in, in Northern Europe, you know, lots of people go on vacation, they fly south and then they come back and they moan about, oh, it was 42 degrees, or it was 45 degrees and thank God we're back where it's only 20, uh, degrees Celsius.
[00:05:33] And you think, yes, but you are able to do that. And there are people in those locations who are not able to move themselves And and who are bearing that burden of, of climate, uh, shift.
[00:05:44] Rebecca: And it, it's getting hotter.
[00:05:46] Tatjana: getting warmer everywhere, right.
[00:05:48] So I know in terms of the work that you do as, uh, a law professor, you also teach your students the Jemez principles for democratic organizing, which you very kindly shared with me as well, um, that that really deeply resonated with me. Maybe, could you share those here for those that, um, are not aware of them and also maybe we talk a little bit about how do we best engage with it, with this justice work, based on those principles.
[00:06:12] Rebecca: Yeah, it's really important if you're gonna do justice words to recognize your own positionality in that work, and to recognize both, what you bring in terms of your talents and your passions, but also what burdens you don't face. Um, for example, I, you know, I'm a college educated white woman from a middle class background.
[00:06:36] That means that. There are certain burdens I just didn't have to face in my life. Now, that's not bad, right? We don't want people to have to face burdens. Um, you know, the idea is to bring everybody together and to recognize both our past and our present and our future in order to build a future where nobody bears unfair burdens because of their race, their gender, their religion, their accent, their sexual orientation, to build a world where everybody is actually equal in terms of what life possibilities are in front of them.
[00:07:17] So the Jemez principle for democratic organizing is a, declaration, sort of, that was adopted at a very important, meeting for e environmental economic justice that was held. Oh God, how many years? In 1996. And I'm, I'm a long time ago. At this point, I was not there to be clear. I was not there. Um, know, it was a meeting about how are we gonna do this work in a fashion that respects everybody and doesn't silence groups that are traditionally have less power and have groups that traditionally have more power.
[00:07:54] Be the voice for what counts as justice. And the himes principles. The most important one, I think is the principle that people speak for themselves. Um, there, you know, there are med, there are what, five or six principles, you know, be inclusive. emphasize bottom up organizing, meaning that solutions come from the bottom.
[00:08:15] They're not imposed top down, uh, work together in solidarity. Build just relationships amongst ourselves. commitment to self transformation, to recognizing that we are all part of the problem, even as we hope to be the solution. And that can be crippling, but it doesn't have to be. It also can be very liberating to recognize that this is a journey and we're all on it together.
[00:08:40] We start wherever we start, but if we keep our eye on the goal that we're trying to reach, which is a society where everybody has those basic human rights to clean air, clean water, and a healthful environment that we can make progress. Not nobody's gonna solve the problem by themselves, but together we can create movement, we can move towards the world we want to have.
[00:09:05] Tatjana: And, and I love this principle of, you know, there's both a collective, um, accountability and there's an individual accountability. And, and when I was reading them, uh, the first time round, I was reminded of. Um, I read Philosophy and John Stewart Mill has a book called On Freedom, which is written kind of in the Dickensian area.
[00:09:25] And, and, um, and when you read it, it could have been produced today. You know, this principle of nobody is free until everybody is free. So this illusion that you have.
[00:09:35] some level of freedom is, is just not true. Right? It is an illusion. Um, because as long as other people are in bondage in terms of their possibilities or their poor health or whatever it is, then we we're all gonna suffer, right?
[00:09:52] And, and it's an illusion to think that you can just turn your head away and, and actually not be part of that, uh, and part of the solution. So, so if we dive a little bit deeper on this principle of, you know, everybody has a voice, um, and, and everybody should be included.
[00:10:07] To, to what extent is the environmental crisis and, and the multiple crisis as the several of them that we face, are they linked to white supremacy and, and systemic, uh, racism?
[00:10:19] Rebecca: Yeah. I mean, the idea that communities of color are sacrifice zones where we don't have to worry about the fact that the air is not, that the air breathing, breathing makes you sick, that drinking water, washing your body, cooking is introducing toxins into yourself and playing outside.
[00:10:43] Sitting outside, opening your window. Leaves you vulnerable because, you know, we've been talking about pollution. What we haven't said is, exposure to pollution causes disease. It harms people's health. It harms children's development. It limits their ability to learn. It limits sometimes their height. It limits their, uh, you know, their potential in ways that affect their life trajectory.
[00:11:10] And the fact that when we look around, when I look around New York City, when I look around the United States, and when I look around the world, what you see is that over and over again, it is white communities that are unburdened and communities of color and indigenous communities, especially black communities and indigenous communities that are overburdened. And that's not by accident.
[00:11:33] Tatjana: Yeah. And, and exactly, and that story repeats globally, right? That's not, that's not just a US phenomenon. It's actually a, a, a global phenomenon.
[00:11:41] Rebecca: But it's also true that if you look around the world to where there are functioning ecosystems, to where there is intact unpolluted land, it is land that is managed by indigenous groups and um, people of color. So, you know, both are true at the same time.
[00:12:04] And when we look around, you know, we look around the world and we say, you know, we need to protect, say the, the, um, the forest in Kenya or in Cambodia. What we say is we need to kick out the indigenous people who've been managing that land for millennia, because it needs to be either parkland or land that is used in the, the red program, right?
[00:12:27] The United Nations program of protecting, Forests as carbon sinks. And that is yet another iteration of that same dynamic of dispossession and overburdening because the reason that we, that there's, that's where intact forests exist is not an accident. It's because of way they've been managed by the indigenous people.
[00:12:51] They're not wild. These are not wild lands. These are not lands that are untouched by humans. These are lands that have been managed very differently by humans.
[00:12:58] Tatjana: And, and where there's obviously a, a huge, uh, both knowledge of the land itself, but also a, a, a great respect and a, and a worldview of, of also honoring non-human forms. Right? Um, the earth, the plants, the, the animals that reside there.
[00:13:14] Speaking of nature, when we talk about nature, and, and I see this in, in a lot of regenerative circles, uh, that I move in as well, the, the natural environment seems to, to very often be portrayed as this sort of pristine land. Um, but it's always non-urban, right? So it's woodlands, it's the ocean, it's the mountains, it's whatever. and we don't seem to talk a lot about urban environments, and yet so many of us live in urban environments, more or less dense, but nevertheless built up environments. What, why is that? Why, why have we somehow not had enough conversation or it seems that way, uh, around urban environments?
[00:13:53] Rebecca: You know what, that's actually what got me started on this work. 'cause as I said, I live in New York City and um, when my kid was in school, I would go into the schools and, you know, like for parent day to talk about jobs and stuff. And I do environmental work. So I asked, I would always ask, do you live in an environment?
[00:14:12] And there was always at least one kid who said, no. Because to them, the environment was somewhere else. It was somewhere pristine with trees and bunnies and like, I'm all for trees and bunnies, and you we should be protecting But the idea that New York City isn't an environment is just such a profound, Misunderstanding isn't the right word, but it's, it's a blindness to the fact that human beings are animals and we live on this planet. We are part of the ecosystems. And we may be sometimes a really destructive part of ecosystems, but we are part of them. And we're, as you said, like most of us live in urban environments.
[00:14:53] I mean, the un sta statistics show that, um, a majority of people live in urban environments and that's expected to be a, a super majority in the very near future. If people in urban environments don't imagine. That protecting the environment is about them and the places that they live, then we're never gonna succeed at this
[00:15:13] Tatjana: Yeah. And you, you look around the, a global map and, and you know, very many of the global metropolis areas are all based in coastal zones. Right. Zones that are prone to flooding, that are likely to flood,
[00:15:28] Rebecca: spec as sea level
[00:15:29] rises. Yeah, exactly right. That are just not sustainable. where there seems to be, again, this sort of willful blindness of, as long as the, the, the trash is not outside my own house, if it's tugged away, then I'm okay.
[00:15:44] Tatjana: Right. It, it, there's this sort of enclosure, uh, of different communities around the world.
[00:15:50] Rebecca: Actually, can I tell you a great story out of New York City about that? So, um, we've been struggling with trash in particular with about waste. Um, New York City doesn't dispose of any of its own waste. At this point, 12,000 tons of waste a day are generated. They are all transported to other states for disposal and, um, in order for that to happen, right, the trucks that go around and collect waste have to consolidate all that waste into either long haul trucks or barges to be shipped to, you know, or trucked to where its ultimate destination will be.
[00:16:30] And three communities in New York, communities of color, predominantly black communities are where virtually all of the waste transfer stations, where that the garbage trucks that go around the neighborhood cons consolidate it, are located. So it's been a big push in New York City for almost a decade to change that dynamic, to say, we can't overburden these three communities.
[00:16:55] It's wrong, it's immoral, and it is overly polluting. So, um, New York adopted, uh, first there was a plan called the Waste Equity Plan. That was a, a regulatory plan adopted by the Department of Sanitation. And then a local law was enacted called the Waste Equity Law. And that requires that every borough manage its own trash.
[00:17:17] New York is made up of five boroughs and that the amount of waste going into these overburdened communities gets decreased dramatically. Now, what that meant was that waste transfer stations had to be located in wealthy communities as well, or wealthier communities. So a waste, a marine waste transfer station was slotted for the Upper East side of New York, which is one of the wealthiest communities in, not only in the city, but in the country and maybe even in the world.
[00:17:44] They fought it like crazy. This is not an appropriate place for this. They actually made environmental justice arguments that it would be an undue burden on the community to have this waste transfer station because when you're, you're based baseline is privilege. Right. Equality feels like oppression because it, it is a reduction in privilege.
[00:18:04] Well, they lost and the Waste Transfer station was built and first of all, it's a Taj Mahal of waste transfer stations. It is. You would not know that it's there, which is, on the one hand frustrating because of course the Upper East Side gets the fancy waste transfer station. But it's also fantastic because everybody else can point to that and say, we want this too.
[00:18:24] You have proven it is possible to have a waste transfer station that isn't a burden on the community. So now that's what we want. But even, even more interestingly, as it as this waste transfer station was being built and it was clear that the waste from this wider community was gonna go to this Upper East Side waste transfer station, guess what?
[00:18:43] The amount of waste they generated plummeted because all of a sudden they had to manage their own waste and. How much waste you generated became something that people thought about, which they had never thought about before because it went, you know, away in air quotes as though away is a place as opposed to, to somebody else's community.
[00:19:04] So, you know when, when everybody has some skin in the game, priorities change.
[00:19:11] Tatjana: Yeah.
[00:19:12] And I think that that's an important, uh, really important point because here in, in Denmark where I reside, uh, there, there is, and there has been for years quite a big push on, on sorting through your waste. So I have five containers outside, you know, glass, metal, plastic food waste, uh, paper, that sort of thing.
[00:19:30] And, um, you have to sort it into these kind of communal bins. And then they come and collect every two weeks. And if you don't sort correctly, they just stop collecting, Right. So you get a notice as a community to say, Hey, you guys are not sorting. Get It right and then we'll come pick up again. but there's also an awareness I think that's really been built for us that, there's only two of us in the, in the house right now.
[00:19:52] Uh, 'cause the kids have flown the nest and the amount, even consciously deselecting it, the amount of plastic that we throw out every week is a shocker. And, you know, you go to the supermarket here and everything is wrapped in plastic, plastic basket, plastic on top, plastic, individualized, this, that and the other.
[00:20:11] And you go to farmer's markets in other places and everything is just out there for display. And, and there's such a frustration, I think, for many people that why can I not go to my local grocery store and actually buy with all without all this gunk that it's wrapped in, uh, or laminated paper that you know, which bin does that go in or.
[00:20:31] No, you can't recycle it. Right? And stays in the environment for forever. so I think there's lots of things that for, for, for people are just, It's just not making sense. so I, I think there is a journey there, you know, but I think waste, management in terms of, you know, recycling and sorting out your, your, your trash I think is really important,
[00:20:49] Rebecca: And. there's, right, there's two dimensions there. There's the individual dimension of the individual paying attention to how much waste they're generating and sorting their waste. But there's also the structural, uh, dimension of what, what options are available to you. Right. Can you go and buy food that isn't wrapped in plastic?
[00:21:09] Um, is there waste collection in your community? Is the waste all trucked into your community or trucked out of your community? And those are systemic questions that we need to answer alongside the individual questions. You know, there's this, the, actually the, the, the oil industry in particular, particularly, um, a couple of the big oil majors have spent a decade funding the message that the response to the climate crisis, the response to environmental crisis is individual responsibility.
[00:21:38] And they've done that as a bait and switch to avoid paying attention to the systemic nature of the problem. So yes, we need individuals to, to think about their own lives, but more importantly, or as importantly, I guess not more importantly, we also need them to think about the structure and the system that they are, uh, part of.
[00:22:00] And, you know, within. Because that's what really needs to change, so that when you go, when you buy tea, it doesn't come in a box wrapped in plastic. And then inside there's individual tea bags wrapped in this unrecyclable version of, you know, I don't even know what it is.
[00:22:21] Plasticized paper.
[00:22:23] Tatjana: And, and some of that tea, or a lot of that tea is, is not really tea, right. It's, it's sort of tea dust. Um, so, so there's also something there I think about, you know, getting involved at a, at a community level, getting involved politically, you know, to, to actually tackle those systemic, um, issues that we have.
[00:22:41] And, and I know, that you have published, uh, together with your, uh, writer and cartoonist collaborator, Charlie Lag Greca, um, Velasco. a beautiful series, uh, graphic novel series, environmental Justice Chronicles. talk, talk us through that a little bit in terms of why you chose that particular medium creative medium to tell the story.
[00:23:02] Rebecca: So going back to what I was saying earlier about going into classrooms in New York City and, um, kids saying, you know, no, I don't live in an environment. I thought I wanna do something about this. You know, like we all, we can't solve all the problems, but I feel like if everybody thinks about what could I do, what problem do I see that I care about, that I might be able to make some movement on, um, you know, I, I, I feel like that's where progress comes from.
[00:23:34] And I happened to have just had a conversation in a classroom when I met up with Charlie LeGreco Vela, who's an unbelievably talented artist. And I said to him, what would you think about making a comic book about environmental issues in, you know, the fictionalized version of New York City, which is Forestville in our, um, in our series.
[00:23:58] And he was really intrigued by the idea. He thought it was an interesting artistic challenge for him. And so it's been a decade long partnership of making bigger books, graphic novels. There are three of them right now. And they take, a child, a young adult and an adult mentor through a number of different environmental challenges and, um, you know, teach along the way.
[00:24:24] Things like citizen science. How do you make an argument to, in a public hearing, how do you, uh, intervene in a lawsuit? How do you create a political campaign around climate justice or around environmental justice? And then we also have a couple of shorter, comics that were specifically about particular legal issues in the United States.
[00:24:48] One is about the freedom of information act, what it is, how to use it, and the other was about the census. 'cause the 2020 census was happening during COVID and we were trying to, um, raise awareness about what the census was, how important it it is, and, um, you know, what it meant for, for our country. Um, and then we've also been partnering recently with the United Nations Environmental Program to make a series of short comic vignettes about environmental defenders around the world, people who are putting their lives on the line to stand up to protect rivers and forests and ice and, you know.
[00:25:30] Uh, ecosystems and to try to bring attention to the, the perils that they face and the causes that they are fighting for. And that's, that's still a work in progress. We probably, once we finish that, we'll probably go back and make, uh, a fourth book in the Environmental Justice Chronicles. So the Environmental Justice Chronicles are, are the longer books about environmental justice in Forestville, which is, as I said, a fictionalized, uh, city.
[00:25:57] And then the Earth Defenders Series is the stories about environmental defenders around the world. And we make those in close collaboration with the communities that are on the front lines. So they're, what I would say is they're fictionalized, they're, I mean, I think that's true of the environmental, uh, justice Chronicles as well, but we, we start with a true story and then we turn it into a comic book.
[00:26:23] So it's not the literal story of any particular person, but the issues that are being grappled with are the issues on the ground that people in that community told us they wanted us to profile, and we worked very closely with them to hammer out the story so that it's an authentic, uh, expression of their lived experience.
[00:26:45] And if anybody listening wants to check them out, they are available for free. You could free download them for any nonprofit or educational use from my website, which is just my name, rebecca bradbury's dot com.
[00:26:57] Tatjana: Yeah. And, And I've read them. They're absolutely beautiful. and, and I, what I love, uh, as well about the medium is, you know, it, it is. It has a way of think of, of giving the reader a level of freedom that the written word doesn't necessarily have, right? Because it, it, it touches more than the mind, it touches the heart, but it, it feels democratizing in the way that, that we can, we can come to the story in our own pace or at our own pace.
[00:27:25] Um, and, and also to reflect on the images in, you know, what, why does something resonate with me? And I, and I think that there's a, there's a long history, um, of, you know, what comic books are able to do, um, in, in that sense here in, in Scandinavia and Denmark in particular, and listeners that are familiar with the, the tradition of political satire, uh, in the form of, of, uh, you know, uh, drawings in comics Will, will also note that that was one of the things that got Denmark into trouble some years ago.
[00:27:54] Um, because there was this sort of sarcastic view of, um, of, of certain things, um, politically. But I think that there's something about, that it becomes more real in comic form because it is so graphically stunning. and, and we're just moved into the space differently.
[00:28:12] Rebecca: thank you. Um, I, I'm so proud of, of this project and, you know, more people have read that than Will ever read my scholarship. And, you know, the goal was to tell real authentic stories. I mean, people read them just 'cause they're fun stories. Not it, it doesn't have to only be. Now I'm going to learn.
[00:28:32] And in fact, um, when we, we do workshops in school, I should say we did before Covid, we did workshops in schools around New York City. We haven't started up again, but I would really love to. Um, and you know, when we only had the first book, the first book's called Maya's Lot, and we would go into schools and we would do a workshop, and at the end we would ask them, would you read the second book if we made it?
[00:28:54] And a hundred percent of the students said yes. When can we have it? Because it's a fun story. They're beautiful. It's, you know, it's not like it take your medicine kind of, uh, you know, a lot of, I feel like a lot of teaching can be very, um, especially about the environment can be very preachy, especially if it's adults talking to children.
[00:29:15] And we tried really hard not to do that. And that's one of the advantages of partnering with, uh, Charlie, because he's a comic book artist. You know, he, he's used to stories that are not about preaching. He's used to stories that are. Fun. And so it's this, you know, balance between law professor and artist, and it's a struggle.
[00:29:37] Tatjana: Yeah. and I, and I love the, the, the intersection of that because I think in my view, you know, the, the public private collaboration, you know, artists with academic scholars, you know, uh, vicars with. Coaches, whatever, you know, we all have a, we all have something to contribute, right? This, this skin in the game.
[00:29:58] I think there's also unique gifts that, that all of us have to have to, you know, bring forward in order to actually affect some change. But it also feels like, Rebecca, that that, that the education environment is another systemic system that could do with some overhauling, not just in the US where you are residing, but actually globally in terms of how are we talking to children, how are we engaging them in, in this work for environmental and social justice and, and what are the methods that we're using? What's your view on that?
[00:30:25] Rebecca: you know, I love going into these classrooms because I learn as much as I teach, and the, the way that we do these workshops is we go in, the students read the books, we do sort of. F you know, education standard stuff about close reading of the text and analysis. But we also ask the students to vote on what they have decided is the biggest environmental justice challenge in their own community.
[00:30:54] And uh, and then Charlie helps them draw it. So they turn it into a, a visual image, a, you know, a monster, a robot, whatever. One time it was a evil printer. I mean, it, they get super creative about it and then they create a campaign to try to change it. And one of the things that I've really learned is to listen to young people, to listen to youth voices.
[00:31:18] Not just to talk to them, but to listen to them as well, and to recognize that this is an interaction. I am there. Yeah. I know more than they do about the law. And I probably know more than they do about environmental stuff, but you know what? I don't know more than them about is their lives, their community, their family, and that lived experience is really important.
[00:31:45] It's important because going back to the Jemez principles, right? Bottom up organizing, starting with the lived experience of people and letting that guide not only what the policy is, but what questions do you ask about what are the problems?
[00:32:01] Tatjana: And I think that, you know, this, this, um, inclusion of, of children so that it's an, an equitable relationship, right? Because children have so much to teach all of us, and, and, and they have this wonderful way, at least for a while, uh, until they get over socialized of just calling it as it is,
[00:32:18] Rebecca: And it turns out they're actually
[00:32:20] people, They're their own independent people with ideas and thoughts. And are worth taking seriously and listening to,
[00:32:30] Tatjana: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:32:32] What does the, what does the future hold for, for environmental justice and, and social justice work? I mean, it, it seems that, you know this, when you read the news and you look at different, uh, pieces of information, there seems to, sort of a backwards and forwards movement going on all the time.
[00:32:47] What, what is, what is on the horizon for, for this work?
[00:32:51] Rebecca: I think we're, we're really at a cusp. Um, I am cautiously optimistic, but in part that's because I choose to be. Um, you know, there's a lot of climate doom out there. And that actually is also carefully cultivated to some degree. Uh, the same forces that spent millions of dollars in climate denial saying, not proven, we should study more, are now funding climate denial. We can't do anything about it. It's too late with the clear corollary, so why bother? Let's just continue business as usual.
[00:33:30] So, there is a lot to be despairing about. There's a lot of suffering, there's a lot of damage that has been done and there's a lot of climate change that is already locked in. But the antidote to despair is action.
[00:33:48] There is so much we can do. There are so many changes that we can make both in our own lives and in the political systems in which we operate. Particularly if you look at the local level, right? In the communities that we live, we can make changes that then. Ripple outward and upward and become a global change. And to me that is hope. And that's where I spend my energy. I spend a lot of time working here with communities in New York City and you know, my hope is that people in other places are watching what's happening in New York City and I know that they are and saying, Hey, we could do that somewhere else.
[00:34:29] And we in New York City are looking at what is happening in other places and saying, Hey, we could do that here. And if we do that as members of communities, what we wind up with is a transformed world. What we wind up with is reducing our carbon emissions beyond the mo very modest goals of the Paris Agreement to something that is significant change.
[00:34:56] Tatjana: And, and it feels like that, right? It feels like, uh, there's a real need for communities to, to self-organize, and also to work across, right, uh, across the globe, across areas of, of different parts of the world because it's so slow at the political level. and, and there are so many, things in place that just delay the, the action item of, of, you know, trying to do things differently.
[00:35:21] Rebecca: And yet, if you think about, I have two things that I always think about. One is think about how the world changed on a dime during the covid crisis, right? That we have the capacity to change on a dime
[00:35:37] if we choose to. And the, you know, before Covid, when I would talk to my students, they would, they would just say, you know, I can't imagine.
[00:35:45] Change. I can't imagine systemic change. And I always say to them, you know, when I was growing up, if you wanted to make a phone call, you had to stand next to the wall because the phone was on the wall and the cord was only like a couple feet long. That was the only way to make a phone call. And if you wanted information, you had to go to the library and pull out a drawer where there were a bunch of different cards and try to find resources.
[00:36:11] And now we carry that around in our pocket.
[00:36:14] The world has changed in ways that were unimaginable when I was growing up, and it did it very quickly. We can change things when we choose to.
[00:36:25] Tatjana: What, what about us as a human species? Uh, you know, and I think that That's, also been part of the narrative of the kind of doom brigade that, you know, humans are in the way and, you know, might be better if we were not here at all. And that sort of talk, how do we honor not only our own existence, but also the, the, the dignity and the rights of non-human forms.
[00:36:46] Rebecca: you know, it all comes down to a vision of life as extraction. and that is really built deeply into the current capitalist model that we have. But it doesn't have to be. There are other ways to produce value. There are other ways to produce food. There are other ways to produce products, there are other ways to live together in society than to think about every interaction as one of extraction as a zero sum game.
[00:37:15] And that's, you know, again, that's about us retooling what matters and who we think we are.
[00:37:23] Tatjana: I think one of the things that I see in the kind of, uh, leadership development and and coaching space that I operate in and also the therapy space, is that some years ago it used to be very, you know, people would sort of guard their information. They wouldn't necessarily share, they wouldn't necessarily, uh, build community or collaborations across.
[00:37:42] And I think that has changed as well during Covid that we became aware that we couldn't sit and just be interested in ourselves. We actually had to open up and, and start to work with and collaborate and support each other. and, and I wonder also if, if you know, some of that movement, I realized that, you know, we're not in lockdown anymore, but I, but I think that there are people and generations out there that are thinking, well, hey, hang on a minute.
[00:38:08] As, as awful as Covid was, because it was. A, there was a reason we got there in the first pla place, right? It felt like Mother Earth saying that's enough now. Um, but also that there was a, a sort of sense of enlightenment of, hey, it could be different. It doesn't have to be extraction. And in fact, capitalism has not existed for a thousand years. It, it is a relatively recent blip or on our historic journey. Um, so, so where, where can we take ourselves as we sort of untangle from, from the extractive, um, and, and very ome game, uh, way of being.
[00:38:42] Rebecca: Well, again, I think that community is the answer When we are connected to other people, when we see that other people are actually people and they have, you know, aspirations and desires and strengths and weaknesses, and that together we can accomplish things, right? That changes how we experience the world.
[00:39:04] And when we build authentic relations with other people, you know, in whatever community, you know, it could be a religious community, it could be a, you know, some kind of a club. It could be a neighborhood, it could be a, an affinity group that when we build those authentic relations. Then that breaks down this idea of I can only win if you lose,
[00:39:28] and that I don't need to worry about how my actions affect you, which is really the core of the environmental justice problem, right?
[00:39:35] Is that I'm, we're gonna put all of the, the negative externalities, all of the pollution, all the bad effects over there, and they will deal with it. And I don't see it. So it doesn't matter to me, it's not affecting me. But when you realize that there is, that, there again, there is no a way that you can throw things that what you're doing is you are transferring burdens to other people who actually are people that matter and have lives and aspirations and are ju in fact, just like you.
[00:40:05] that's not an answer anymore.
[00:40:07] Tatjana: no. And I think also, you know, I've read some statistic that, and, and you know, that's one of the ways that I guess the, the internet has, has a, a positive way of letting, letting us know what's going on. I, I read a statistic that said that, uh, if we stopped manufacturing clothes today, we can, we can clothe the planet for six generations.
[00:40:25] I mean, that is a shocking, shocking number. And, and a lot of the clothes waste are in communities
[00:40:33] elsewhere.
[00:40:34] Rebecca: you know, same thing's true for food. We produce enough food to feed every single person on the planet, and in fact, to feed the projected maximum population, we just don't use it to feed them. That's not the priority in food production.
[00:40:49] Tatjana: No, it's animal feed. Yeah. what I sometimes hear are people saying it's all very well to be deselecting all of these things in, in the privileged, uh, global North. But if you live in the global south, you would want to have a share of all these, you know, advances or wealth. Uh, so, you know, if, if there is this call to action to do less, consume less, isn't that just another way of, of, you know, marginalizing people who haven't come to that level of, of wealth, uh, as, as in the global north? What are your thoughts on that?
[00:41:24] Rebecca: If you look at the sustainable development goals that the United Nations adopted, um, the goal, eh, I forget what number it is, maybe nine, um, is about energy justice. And energy Justice encapsulates that because they're the people who live in places where they don't have electricity are entitled to that, right?
[00:41:45] They're entitled to have refrigeration, they're entitled to air conditioning when
[00:41:49] it's really hot.
[00:41:50] so energy justice isn't just about reducing the environmental impacts of energy extraction, production, and consumption, though it is that, and it's not just about, affordability in the global north for the poor.
[00:42:08] It's also about making sure that everybody has equitable access to the basic necessities for a life of dignity. And that means that places that have been systematically dispossessed are entitled to investment, and they are entitled to development, and they are entitled to the basic necessities of life at the same time that behavior in the global north must change to decreased
[00:42:38] consumption.
[00:42:39] Tatjana: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I've, I've traveled, uh, in, in quite a few places and, and I think one of the things when we talk about, you know, places such as, as India, for instance, right? A lot of the, you know, concerns around electricity, refrigeration has always been, how do you keep the, the food chain.
[00:42:58] Uh, safe, right? How do you transport food from one place to another to feed people in a safe way? And, and a, a lot of that answer is refrigerated because it's obviously a, a, a hot climate in many places. Um, so I think there's something there, and I think there's also a great kind of unlearning, uh, or, or dismantling in the global north, right there, there, there seems to be quite a few things that we need to have. Some, maybe they feel topsy-turvy, but some different conversations around what do we not need to do any longer?
[00:43:28] Rebecca: you know, I also think that the idea of food transportation. Is a really complicated one because what we're seeing more and more is that consolidated agriculture where you have massive food plantations, where you have mono crops that rely on fertilizer and pesticides is not sustainable. Yields are already have peaked and are going down, and the toll on the environment is remarkable.
[00:43:56] Um, whereas agroecology, where you have, uh, mixed plantations works much better, require many fewer inputs, produce more food, and maintain ecosystems at the same time. So, you know, part of the answer is getting away from this idea that food production is about profit maximization and instead think about food production as feeding people.
[00:44:22] And that will mean that we might need less transportation. It might mean that we will have. Fewer options to buy out of season food. But it, it's worth remembering that the terrible famines that India experienced were not because there wasn't food there, it was because people couldn't afford to buy food.
[00:44:44] And food was being exported from India by the British to other places because it was more economically desirable.
[00:44:54] Tatjana: and and just the sheer madness of that, And, And yet it happened, and yet it's happening in, in many cultures where, you know, the food goes elsewhere. and, and it's so, it's so interesting to me also that, you know, this, this piece around a cyclical life, living with the seasons and, and here in Denmark, no strawberries in December is, is just a fantasy.
[00:45:17] And yes, you can get them, but they've probably been flown in from somewhere and. No, they're horrible. Right? Because they don't taste right. But also, when did we think that that was the thing to do? Um, you know, you, you look at the, the breakfast aisle in most supermarkets in the western world, and there's like 200 kinds, and you sometimes sort of, at least I do, I'm, I'm kind of like, I just want oatmeal, just plain oatmeal with nothing in it, by the way, just the way it is.
[00:45:46] Um, but there's something about, you know, we, we've gotten so used to this abundance of choice, but maybe that's also an enslavement, right? There's too much choice for all of us to handle. Maybe if there was less choice and it's like, it's this or that, okay, fine.
[00:46:01] Rebecca: Yes. But that is less profitable, that's, I mean, it all really comes back down to the way that transnational corporations have escaped the power of the state, and they are, you know, so powerful that they dictate what our options are, right? The reason that everything you buy. In the store is wrapped in plastic is because that's convenient.
[00:46:26] That right. That is, that's a good way Not because anybody actually wants it. Nobody says, oh, please, I want something in styrofoam with plastic on top of
[00:46:36] it.
[00:46:37] Tatjana: yeah.
[00:46:37] Rebecca: And you know, they fight tooth and nail here in New York City, we banned styrofoam. It took a long time,
[00:46:42] but we don't have it anymore.
[00:46:44] And you know, you would've thought the world was gonna end the opposition, the amount of money that flooded into don't do this campaigns. And you know, if you ask, nobody even notices that we don't have styrofoam that like, you can't get a styrofoam cup, or your takeout is not in styrofoam. You know, like you can make these changes.
[00:47:04] And once they're made, nobody notices because nobody actually wanted that in the first
[00:47:09] Tatjana: No, we get re socialized into, you know, making do with other things that are just as fine. Right. What's wrong with a recyclable water, bottle of glass or steel or whatever that you can bring with you every time. Yeah. That's amazing.
[00:47:23] In, in terms of this piece of, uh, bottom up, which I am all about, um, what are some, some sort of tips for people in terms of how do we best organize, what are some of the things that you've learned and you've seen that work really well for people to organize locally?
[00:47:38] Rebecca: what what I see, and I don't pretend to be some kind of like fancy expert on, on this, I really don't. I mean, I'm learning from people who are community organizers, which is not, you know, I'm a law professor, but when you find common ground, when you find something that you care about collectively, whether it is, you know, it could be something really small, like cleaning up the park.
[00:48:02] We all use the park. It would be nice if it weren't dirty, if it weren't, if it were managed well. And if the city isn't gonna manage it, maybe we can you meet people that you wouldn't meet otherwise. and you know, sometimes like people get involved in it because they have a dog that they like to walk into the park and they meet other people who have dogs in the park.
[00:48:21] And that's what they have in common. They may have nothing else in common, but their dog owners, they bring their dog to the park. That's a community. And if that community says, Hey, we want to clean up the park, right? That's the first thing. And once you've cleaned up the park together, you can look around and say, Hey, maybe we could clean up something else.
[00:48:40] Or maybe we could, all create a, a small lending library in the park and then we can stock it with books that will be of interest to the kids who live nearby who might not have access to, to books. And you know, it builds on itself and it grows. But that starts with. People say, identifying what they actually care about and where they think their talents could be of value, and what questions do they have about why things are the way they are, what problems do they see that's really different than somebody like me, who's a law professor, who studies these issues on a legal level, on a, um, philosophical level, on a policy level coming in and saying, oh, your problem is X.
[00:49:25] Right? You know, that may be one of their problems, but if it's not the problem that they have identified as their problem, they don't wanna hear me. And I need to have the humility to come in and not say, your problem is X, but say, what do you think your problems are? And among the ones you've identified, how do you prioritize them?
[00:49:44] Tatjana: And I guess also, you know, in that conversation, what is, what is the possibility of the law, right? Of, of getting organized from a legal perspective of understanding the, the, the remit of the law And what's possible in, in changing the systemic pieces, right? The policies, the, the way that we see
[00:50:01] things.
[00:50:02] Rebecca: And law
[00:50:02] doesn't exist separate from people. We create it,
[00:50:05] Tatjana: No, exactly.
[00:50:06] Rebecca: we can
[00:50:06] change it, you know, we build legal systems.
[00:50:09] Tatjana: yeah, yeah. in the areas that, and, and I appreciate what you are teaching from a law perspective, do people generally shy away from the law if it's if it's or, or do they sort of think, this is a route to, to some more agency and some more influence?
[00:50:25] Rebecca: Um, it really depends. Uh, because it, it can do both at the same time. And people see, you know, a especially in the United States, will sue as, you know, the way to solve a problem. And there are problems you can solve that way, but not most problems. and lawyers also often come in with a, a real hubris.
[00:50:46] Um, you know, there's this idea of the expertise halo and that people who have, uh, expertise, particularly expertise that is recognized with degrees and certificates, but they, they know that they're expert in the area. They're expert in, but they also forget that they're only expert in the area that they're expert in.
[00:51:05] They don't actually have expertise in a whole bunch of related, adjacent disciplines, but feel like they do. And so, you know, the hubris of coming in and saying, let me tell you what your problems are. And then let me tell you what the solutions to your problems are is, you know, something that lawyers, I think are particularly prone to, um, because the nature of the lawyer, lawyer, client relationship where, uh, you know, a client comes in and says, ah, this, you know, oh my God.
[00:51:35] And the lawyer says, well actually that's a tort. You know, that's like, that's our job
[00:51:39] in the lawyer client relationship. But that's really different when you're dealing with an individual who comes to you with a problem and you put it in a legal framework for them, as opposed to when a community is trying to solve a much more complicated problem that is not directly, encompassed within particular legal doctrine.
[00:51:58] Tatjana: And, and I think also the, the humility that we all need to be really good listeners to, to really understand, what is it that is at the core of, of an issue. And, and, you know, also offering our gifts without necessarily asking for anything in return.
[00:52:13] And I, and I know that that's varies kind of on a philosophical level. Uh, there's also a reality of people having jobs and, and needing to make a living. But I think this piece of engaging with each other, I, I work with groups of, of leaders and teams and organizations and, and very often use, um, Nancy Kline's, uh, thinking framework because that there is that humility of, no, we are not experts.
[00:52:36] Uh, I can't assume that I understand where this conversation is going. I have to. Sit on my behind and listen and continue to listen and go deeper with that. And that the learning that comes from that is actually really transformative because people feel seen, they feel heard, right? We're not othering them.
[00:52:54] We're actually saying, no, you have something valuable to contribute and I want to hear what you have to say. And, and it feels like that is what we also need to be, encouraging in our younger generations that, that they have a voice with the community work.
[00:53:07] Rebecca: Communities speak for themselves.
[00:53:09] Tatjana: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and get involved, right. cause we all have skin in the game in this one. Alright. Wonderful. Rebecca, I just wanna, uh, thank you so much for, uh, joining me today on this conversation. If there's one thing that you wanna leave us with, um, as a, as a, a thought or a comment or a reflection, what might that be?
[00:53:28] Rebecca: well we in the United States, I don't know when this is airing, but we in the United States are in the throes of a major election. Um, and the one thing I would say is take every opportunity to make your voice heard, both in your community and at the ballot box, because people who don't vote, especially in the United States, the non-voting contingent is as large often as the people who actually vote.
[00:53:57] yeah, it's, it's really a, a terrible problem that we have of people not participating and. You know, you're, even if I don't agree with you, I want you to participate because we all have skin in this game. We all need to be part of identifying what our problems are and deciding how we're gonna solve them.
[00:54:18] So for the Americans out there, I would say please vote. And I would say that for everybody. But I know that our problem is uniquely, um, one of disengagement,
[00:54:29] Tatjana: Sure. And, and disengagement,
[00:54:31] actually also turns up in, uh, you know, at the, at the voting booth, um, e even in Denmark. Um, uh, and, and I hear you. I think it's, it is, it is more than important. I think it's absolutely critical. Um, we sometimes talk about in our family that voting is not only a right?
[00:54:50] it's actually a duty, right?
[00:54:51] So you can't be sitting on the sofa, Not, wanting to go vote because it's raining. You have to vote. Um, also because democracy is not a given, right? Uh, our involvement, the fact that we can vote, uh, should never be taken for granted. Uh, it can go away in a heartbeat. Um, if, if the wrong kind of people show up and, and have the power.
[00:55:11] So yeah. Vote, vote, vote. Right? And vote locally, right? Local
[00:55:15] elections, community,
[00:55:17] uh, nationals.
[00:55:18] Rebecca: and, you know, meet your neighbors build if, if you feel like you don't have a community build one.
[00:55:24] People are hungry for connection and community.
[00:55:27] Tatjana: They really are. And all it takes is going outside and saying hello to the people that live next door. just remind us again where people can find out more information about you on your website.
[00:55:37] Rebecca: So my website is rebecca bratby.com. Um, I'm also pretty active on social media. You can find me as. are bratby on pretty much every platform. I love to hear from people. I would ask people please reach out and, uh, let's continue the conversation.
[00:55:54] Tatjana: I had the best conversation with Rebecca Bratby about environmental justice, social justice. Uh, we could have talked for hours. and thank you to you for listening. if you enjoyed this episode. Do feel free to share it with others and feel free also to sign up to the human greenhouse mailing list on the human greenhouse.com.
[00:56:18] You're also very welcome to send me a message via the website. I love engaging with all of you, so thanks for tuning in, and I look forward to you joining our next episode of the Human Greenhouse Podcast. Thank you.