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Still in Cradle! In this final episode of Will White's Underlord, Slava and Jonathan are joined by our usual Cradle connoisseurs again to revisit Lindon and Yerin as they strive to reach the end of the sacred arts. We are six guests deep this time. We hope you enjoy it.
Our website: www.thesidequestpodcast.com
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(02:15) Exploring Underlord: Tension and Character Arcs
(04:39) Fun Facts and Personal Insights
(14:45) Plot Overview of Underlord
(18:01) Will White: Author Insights and Achievements
(21:19) Understanding Xianxia: The Genre of Cradle
(29:51) Eastern vs. Western Storytelling Perspectives
(37:33) Cyclical and Meditative Storytelling
(40:48) Hero's Journey and Character Development
(43:12) Self-Reflection and Personal Growth
(46:35) Understanding Characters' Vulnerabilities
(51:55) Irony in Character Names
(54:22) Hot Takes and Character Dynamics
(01:15:28) The Path of the Edge Lord
(01:20:14) The Path of the Jester
(01:21:41) The Path of the Tideweaver
(01:23:37) The Path of the Ever-Expanding Horizon
(01:27:42) The Abyssal Maw and Inner Hunger
(01:30:03) Weaknesses and Vulnerabilities
(01:34:23) Character and Plot Analysis
(01:40:59) Mythology and Writing Style
(01:48:10) Bloopers & Outro
Creators and Guests
What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?
Join Slava and Jonathan as they discuss the books they are reading. Explore world-building, characters, and story development—and share some laughs along the way. Side Quest Book Club — a literary adventure podcast.
103 Underlord Part 3 (Guest Episode) VERSION 2
===
Jonathan: [00:00:00] Slava, you wanna start us off?
Slava: Uh, yeah,
Jonathan: He's the kid who's not paying attention in class.
Slava: good morning Jonathan and everybody else.
Matt
JT: Good morning.
Spenser: Good morning.
Slava: Spencer and JT, Casey, full house today.
Jonathan: Matt doesn't get a mention. Slava, Slava's decided to, uh, oust him.
Matt: I have been berated.
Jonathan: You did not say Matt. Berate him. Berate him!
Slava: and Matt. Thanks for joining us.
Jonathan: It's a pity recognition.
Matt: Chick fil a, my pleasure.
JT: Are we all, like, in the same positions? Am I in the top left of everybody's screen?
Jonathan: No,
Slava: No, everybody's in the
JT: be like,
Slava: their own screen.
JT: because, like, this would be Slava right here for me.
Casey: Everyone's the main character of their own screen.
Slava: Yeah, it's me, Casey, Jonathan, JT, and Spencer. Matt's not even on my screen.
Matt: Man.
Jonathan: He actually just put tape, he put a post it note on top of Matt's video. Matt's not [00:01:00] here.
Casey: I'm sorry, Matt, but you've been voted off the
island.
Matt: well, I guess I can go back to bed.
Jonathan: Blame the Russians.
Matt: Damn Russians.
Jonathan: So, if you haven't guessed it, we are finishing up Underlord with Part 3. And most of you, let's see, Matt read this for the first time, Casey and Slava. You guys are going play by play, but Matt finished the series. Spencer JT and myself have all finished the series. and we know what's to come, but Two of our people here do not know what is going to happen after Underlord. So for them, it was a more interesting, tense ride. Do you guys want to speak to that at all, Casey and Slava?
Casey: Slava won't go first, it's your podcast.
Slava: Yeah, I wouldn't call it a tense ride, but as I mentioned in the previous episode, this is my favorite book thus far. I enjoyed, uh, again, particularly Yeren's arc in this story. [00:02:00] But I'm enjoying the series as a whole, tremendously. So, happy that we're doing this.
Casey: For me, it's uh, wasn't necessarily quite so tense. I figured Yerwen would probably live through it, but I didn't know how she was going to live through it. So the point of tension there was how close she's gonna get to dying until she actually does die.
Jonathan: Is he going to do, is he going to do worse like a Breaking Bad or Sanderson? Just keep pushing her closer to the edge and see if she can survive. Or is he going to be a little merciful and bring her back out quicker, quickly
Casey: All up in the cards.
Jonathan: all up in the cards. Spencer, you've read. Underlord how many times? JT, same question.
Spenser: Yeah, I've, uh, I've read it twice now. I read it originally, think about a year ago, uh, maybe a little over a year. And then as we were getting ready for the podcast, I figured it would probably be best for me to read it a second time just so I have a good grasp of what's going [00:03:00] on. So just finished it last night actually.
Jonathan: Nice.
Spenser: yeah, I remember this being one of my, uh, More favorite books of the series. yeah, the, the, the tension with, with urine at the end was definitely, yeah, definitely even on the reread, it's just like, even almost had me questioning, even though I know it's going to happen, it's like, is she actually going to live?
Like, how is she even going to get out of this? It doesn't, I don't know. I don't see how he's gonna be able to write his way out of this one, but, yeah, it was good. It was good tension.
JT: I have only read it once, but I read it fairly recently. It was this year. So, uh, I do have a couple of places in the book that I go back to every once in a while just to relive that scene.
Jonathan: Oh, like what?
JT: usually it's the, the very end scene. She'll talk about later.
Jonathan: Fair enough.
Slava: Well, I'll write as we set off on a day Site Quest, be sure to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. But before we get into the book, because this is the first time we have six guests on altogether, I think all of our guests except the one now. [00:04:00] What are some fun facts you guys can share with us in the audience?
Casey, would you like to start us off?
Casey: Sure thing. So I've actually taken up a bit of pipe smoking recently with some guys. It's pretty interesting, especially the conversations. So far, I've done the past two episodes of the Cradle Saga, and one Warbreaker episode.
Slava: That was a fun one.
Jonathan: I enjoyed that one.
Casey: That was a fun one.
Slava: Have you changed your mind about Vivenna?
Casey: No. No hesitation.
Slava: No, not even a second.
Jonathan: Feels pre planned.
Casey: Pre planned.
Jonathan: Oh yeah, you guys are just coming against my gal.
Slava: Oh, yeah, yeah,
Matt: I still don't understand
how you like her
so Oh, you're talking about us. I thought you were talking about the beef that you had with me about Vivenna.
Jonathan: that was organic.
Casey: Alright. JT, how about you
JT: sorry, one sec. Um,
Jonathan: Wow,[00:05:00]
Casey: What?
JT: I felt like I had to do it.
Jonathan: a lot of torque there. You
JT: I gotta turn off, I gotta, I had to turn off the sound pad.
Casey: You gotta turn off the sound pad.
JT: It's too much of a temptation.
Casey: Take the power away.
JT: Slava, you doing alright?
Slava: I'm Tom Fine.
Jonathan: Not anymore, he's not. I think you got a
little on him.
JT: leave that in. Leave that in.
Slava: think it got a little on me.
JT: Uh,
Jonathan: on your left side, there's a little bit of brown. I don't know, I don't think it's coffee. It doesn't look like coffee. It looks too
Slava: too thick?
Jonathan: Yeah.
JT: so I'm JT. just a big lover of cultivation novels. especially of the original Chinese ones. fun fact about me, I didn't think of a fun fact.
Jonathan: Wow,
you're the most fun guy here.
JT: on chapter 3, 000 now of the first cultivation novel that I ever started reading.
Slava: Oh,
Casey: Yeah, they really go hard. on length with [00:06:00] these novels apparently.
JT: They're really short chapters, but there's a lot of them.
Jonathan: Hmm,
Matt: Like how short, like a couple paragraphs or like a couple sentences.
JT: Uh, no, 1, 600 words per,
Jonathan: so like a blog post, basically.
JT: Yeah,
Uh, I calculated it at one point, I told you guys this last time. the first. Two books were five times longer than the Bible.
Jonathan: Yeah,
Slava: Yeah,
JT: they do these long epic stretches, so it's not super detail focused, but the breadth of what you get is a massive,
Jonathan: how do they keep all that information straight? If you're on chapter 3, 000.
Matt: They don't.
Jonathan: Okay,
okay, fair enough.
Casey: They don't care.
JT: times you'll find an author forgets about something that he wrote about earlier. oh yeah, he did pick up that item, 700 chapters ago. Uh, and the readers have to be the ones to remind him, Hey, what, what about this thing? Oh yeah.[00:07:00]
Jonathan: in the next chapter it gets mentioned again.
JT: Every once in a while. Yeah. It'll
Matt: Wild.
JT: now he uses it.
Spenser: Sounds like he needs an editor team like Sanderson's got.
Keep everything straight.
Yeah.
or a wiki.
JT: it's the thing is that it's not a huge moneymaker because they don't print these. it's all on the web and usually it's like a pay by. subscription model where it's, oh yeah. You get access to all the stuff I've, I've written for, you know, five bucks a month.
Spenser: I see that makes more sense.
JT: love to have a hard copy of it. I've never
Matt: Netflix for books.
Casey: book flicks.
Jonathan: book flicks.
you can't get new chapters if you buy a hard copy, JT, in
JT: It's true. I'd like to still have it just in case.
Jonathan: case it disappears off the internet.
JT: Yeah. Essentially
Matt: They just send them a hard copy, no pages. Open it and it says see hyperlink.
JT: maybe, maybe one day
it just the cover with the Yeah, that's, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, like a nice hard cover that's a big thick leather [00:08:00] bound piece. You just open it, there's no paper.
Well, who knows if it one day disappears behind the firewall.
Casey: The great Chinese fireball.
Jonathan: Are you reading them in Chinese?
JT: No, uh, thankfully I do, I read the translations.
Jonathan: Okay. I,
was about to be real impressed. accurate are the translations? Are
Matt: they, like, like, manga usually takes, depending on the manga, it takes however long to translate. That's because of, you know. People not caring too much, but for these, how long does it take? Is it like, like a one to one, they have two teams writing one in Chinese, and then these guys just translate for different languages, or?
JT: In this case, there are no official translators for basically anything.
Slava: Google
JT: because,
Casey: Fan
JT: well, so what they end up doing is, there's just passion projects somebody has, I'm gonna translate these novels because I like them so much.
Matt: Interesting. Very interesting.
JT: So uh, Matt, what's your fun fact?
Matt: let's see. My fun fact. So for Halloween, um, I'm a big Star Wars nerd. Everybody who's listening to the podcast already knows if they've listened to my [00:09:00] episodes. Big Star Wars fan. I applied, it was came up through Instagram for like, you could win a free lightsaber, just sign up for your email, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So I signed up and, uh, and I won.
Jonathan: Really?
Matt: got a 1200 lightsaber in the mail, and it is the one you guys saw sitting on the bed, er, on Monday. And that brings my total lightsaber count, I think, up to 8.
Jonathan: Wow. and other than my guns, those are all the most valuable possessions in my house that
JT: Wow.
Casey: Wow.
Jonathan: And the house. Don't forget the house that you got equity in the house.
Matt: Well, I have equity in the house, right, but the house gets turned upside down, whatever falls, I am putting that category
into. So yeah, I want a lightsaber. It's really cool. I got a baby coming in January. lot of fun stuff going on in my life this year. So I'm just happy to be back on the podcast and well Slava and Mai's podcast.
Slava: Yes.
Jonathan: actually you haven't listened to [00:10:00] these episodes, which is apparent to me, but Spencer actually took over.
Matt: you told me that last time, but it's still Slava. It's it's Jonathan and Spencer sometimes, but most of the time it's Matt
and
Jonathan: No, no. Spencer literally did a takeover. He, he booted you. We talked all about it on that episode.
You'll have to go listen to it.
Spenser: it's no longer your podcast. Sorry, Matt.
Matt: Oh man. Rats.
I guess it's a single man's game.
Spenser: And that's why, for my fun fact, I don't really have one, Because you guys, If you're listening to these, I've been on enough of these episodes, You know me already. What more do you need to
Jonathan: security number, bank account. How much you got? Are you willing to give everyone a 5 coffee?
Casey: What's the last six digits on your credit card?
Jonathan: That's right. These are all the questions people want to know.
Spenser: Yeah, super, uh, Super personal questions,
Matt: Ooh, who's your Maine and Smash Bros? That's a real question.
Spenser: that is a great question. I actually kind of flip flopped between Lucas and Pyra
Matt: I knew the answer to that question. I just wanted everybody else to groan collectively [00:11:00] and be like, uh, Lucas,
Spenser: Lucas.
Casey: users in Lucas.
JT: I like Mithra
Matt: they're fun to play, but I'm a, I'm a Pharo, and Ike, Ike was my main. Back in, I think the second one he was in, but.
Ike has been my main for a long time. I also love Ganon. I like the heavy hitters. I really
like the heavy hitters.
JT: edgelord.
Matt: Edgelord,
yep.
Casey: Donkey Kong.
Matt: I lost in a couple tournaments to Donkey Kong for whatever reason, and I don't like
him at all.
Casey: the
banana. Ha ha
Matt: What's
Casey: ha.
ha.
Matt: the ground
and then
his big smack and it's just like what the f It's so fast and every other movie does it slow. It's just yeah, anyway smash
bros
Casey: I particularly like his taunt where he just looks at the camera and goes,
JT: And just grab upthrow to up air.
Matt: Ariel dodge and then I like the What was it? I think you could do it with two characters in the first one I think it was bowser and it was donkey kong you could put him on your back and then you just Hop off the map.[00:12:00]
Spenser: Oh
Matt: And kamikaze him.
I did it
with my little sister.
Spenser: Yeah, Bowser has a move where you
can
grab them, picks them up and then slams them down.
But if you're on the edge of the map, you
can I mean, you'll lose a stock too, but if
you're one stock ahead, you could beat someone like that.
Casey: Yeah,
or, or you're a high damage and you don't care.
Spenser: That too.
Jonathan: So no honor in this group. Got it.
Spenser: Absolutely not. not. when it comes to Smash Bros. victory or death.
Slava: So I have a side quest. I went to a wedding. I was the best man at a buddy's wedding. And so I had to write a speech and he's a big Star Wars fan too. I got his goat during the speech because his wife, now wife, but that time fiance has never seen up until that point, any Star Wars. So he sat her down and they watched the original three and then the You know, the prequels and so one of my bits in the speech was Oh, Stephanie, that's her name.
You and I have something in common. I haven't watched any Star Wars either because, but I hear the next one that's coming [00:13:00] out is a really fun. It's where Emperor Picard needs to give the TARDIS to Hogwarts in time. hobbits can defeat the Cylons. And everybody laughed and she laughed and he was just sitting there going like, damn it.
Matt: You're so ashamed.
Slava: I've made a mistake. Cause him and I have talked Star Wars and Matt, you were on all the Star Wars episodes that we did. I have enough information because of Star Wars being in the zeitgeist.
So I can talk at length about it, maybe not as a super fan at all, but I read two books and I watched bits and pieces of the movies.
I don't
think he saw that
coming
it was a fun time for me.
Matt: That's awesome.
Jonathan: That is a good one. Casey, why don't you give us a quick overview of the plot while we keep moving forward here?
Casey: Alright. So, to summarize, we've still got the threat of the Dread God slowly waking back up, hanging over everyone's heads, and so the Monarch of the, uh, various, or the various Monarchs, I should say, of Cradle have decided to host the Uncrowned Tournament again, which [00:14:00] involves invites to, all the Underlords. However, Linden and Yeren aren't underlords yet, and so they need to, beef up beforehand. Thankfully, they get invited to Nightwheel Valley, a very high tier area for cultivation resources, in which they and Mercy and Ethan and Orthos all get together and have a jolly good time trying to acquire all the stuff that they can while they're there. Linden basically had the entirety of Nightwheel Valley in his pockets at one point.
Jonathan: that way.
Casey: But,
they eventually get forced out because, surprise surprise, Charity is holding a grudge and decides to send the entire, Second Kingdom against them, what was it, the Satian Kingdom, and forces them out. They decide, you know what, we need to make one last Hail Mary to get in there, especially because Yeren ends up damaging her, what was it, lifeline? [00:15:00] the, in the confrontation with them, by feeding it into her blood shadow, creating a clone. So now we have blood clone jutsu going on. for one last Hail Mary, they manage to break in to, well, it's not really break in, they were let in, essentially, by charity through, mercy, and it ends up in a large confrontation between the two sides again. After which, uh, well, let's just say that it didn't go too well for the Satian kingdom, losing one of their princes, and Linden and Yeren both advancing to Underlord on their own power, and Mercy advancing because she dies. Yes, that makes sense in context.
Jonathan: lamb. Uh
Casey: Yep. After that, they have a jolly good time celebrating their, advancement to Underlord before suddenly Charity's back. Oh yeah, congratulations. Also we've chosen, the participants, and I'm sorry, Linden, you aren't going to be an Underlord for Team Black Flame, [00:16:00] because I'm poaching you. What? Yunk.
Jonathan: huh. Did you expect that?
Casey: I did not expect that. I expected she was gonna kick him out, or something like that, because she's still holding a grudge. Yep.
Matt: and the characters in the book. I feel like there had to have been some twist in there, but this, this book had a lot of interesting twists that Will hadn't really written in any of his previous books, especially in the Cradle series.
which this also makes it, I think my favorite book so far. Well, I've read all of them. This is my favorite book. yeah, I, speaking of Will, um, Spencer, tell us about Will White.
Spenser: Yeah, let's, uh, let's talk about Will White for a second. so if you have listened to the past two episodes, Slava gave us a little bit of a rundown already. But, um, just as a refresher, Will White is a New York Times bestseller, for a couple of different series. Cradle being one of them. his [00:17:00] true power though, uh, is unleashing A full moon when he transforms into a monstrous mongoose.
Will lives in Florida, lurking beneath the swamps to ambush prey. he graduated from the University of Central Florida, where he received a Master of Fine Arts in Creative Writing and a cursed coin of Spanish gold. I think it was noted before, this was, like a self, uh, self published autobiography in a sense of, like, his, his bio. so that's kind of fun. he's, uh, Got several, several good series, he's also been nominated for a couple of awards and was retired from winning one award because he won it too many times, so that's pretty cool. and Waybound, which is the last book in the Cradle series, was, it was the bestseller on Audible. the week that it was released. So he's obviously been making a name for himself and, yeah, definitely look forward to seeing more, stuff from him in the future.
Slava: it's a little less impressive than Sanderson, his last book of the Stormlight Archives isn't out yet. And [00:18:00] it's been pre ordered so much that it's the best seller for Audible, I think this month.
Spenser: That's amazing.
Yeah.
Jonathan: Well, Will has not been writing as long, I don't think, as Sanderson. So,
Matt: Sanderson's on another level too, when it comes to just the content, I guess. It's, I mean, Will White's a great author and all, and the books are great, but Sanderson is fans are probably going to hate this, but he's comparative to Tolkien in the world that he builds is so detailed, before he even gets into the, you know, the meat and potatoes of the story, the world is just so fleshed out.
Like in Warbreaker, perfect example, you had a full understanding of the magic system before you even met the world in just the little prologue. And that was the hook for a lot of people, especially for me. And I think Will White is not there yet, but that's also why Sanderson is, I think, the better author.
And for good reason.
JT: give me some recommendations on that. Cause I started reading Mistborn and [00:19:00] it was good, but not excellent.
Matt: Start with Warbreaker.
JT: Okay.
Jonathan: did you finish a Mistborn book? And also, did you read them in the right order?
JT: I finished the first two. the first one was excellent. The second one, less excellent.
Jonathan: Era 1 or Era 2?
JT: I don't know what that means.
Casey: whole eras to this.
Spenser: Probably the first one then.
Jonathan: Who are the characters that you met? Just a name or two.
JT: This is the, they're fighting against the, the evil empire. He's the Lord Ruler? lord ruler, yeah.
Is that era one? Okay.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Spenser: You need to finish, yeah, sorry, you need to finish book three in that series. Cause yeah, book two is probably the, the slowest one of the, of the group of those. so he wraps it up very nicely in book three and it has
a great great ending.
JT: Okay.
Jonathan: Bands of Mourning.
JT: Hmm.
Jonathan: The other thing is, there's a large time gap that happens between the end of Book 3, Mistborn, and Book [00:20:00] 1, Era 2. England ish.
JT: Interesting.
Jonathan: So, worth, worth the read. Uh, same to you, Matt. There starts to be, this is more Foundation stuff, Hope to get to it in the podcast at some point, but, things start to coalesce and come together, as you continue to read the novels.
So
Slava: Hey, the ventures and join this episode of psychosis so far. Make sure you're subscribed. So you can keep up with all the cyclists would go on and now. back into the world of cradle.
Spenser: so JT, can you tell us a little bit about, this genre and where Will gets his inspiration from?
JT: Sure, Spencer. Will White's entire Cradle series, not his other books, but specifically Cradle, is based on a Chinese Genre called xianxia, which means immortal heroes. it's basically just immortal people in a very Chinese type setting. I wrote down a couple of. Basics for [00:21:00] the genre, which I think is present in every book of this I've read.
the first and most important one is that the world is always a brutal dog eat dog world. everybody's out for themselves, almost everybody is selfish. You find few friends and many enemies. Two, everybody is consumed with the, or not everybody, but, most people are consumed with the desire to obtain immortality.
this is part of Daoism, which is the uh, framework that the genre is built off of. it's full of many different intelligent species. but generally, all humans are Chinese, essentially. it's based on honor and face culture. you've got a lot of very open dialogue between people.
There's very little hiding what I really think. I'm going to tell you exactly what I think of you. And it's not good. the last one is that it's full of what you might [00:22:00] call profound mystery. They don't bother explaining things in the same way that you might have a Sanderson, explaining here's how the magic system works.
They go, it's chi, it's, things interacting with each other and the elements in harmony and balance. I don't have to explain anything else.
Casey: Basically, it's magic. It works.
JT: Yeah, they don't, they really don't bother to explain anything and I think it works out really well because in this, you don't really want it to make sense, you want big explosion, big fights, people to feel like they're coming, you know, as the underdog to a battle. I would say that, that is the, basis of the genre. he does a lot of references to, uh, different, tropes within that genre, the last episode that we did on Ghostwater was a, like a classic dungeon, which is constantly used throughout this genre, and this one is no different, this is, a pocket dimension.
Which is also a staple of the genre.
Casey: [00:23:00] I mean, technically, Ghostwater was also a pocket dimension. It was just a dungeon pocket dimension.
JT: Yeah, there's, there is a bit of a difference, a difference without a distinction.
Jonathan: I was going to say, I was about to challenge you on that. So what's the difference?
the,
name they're just named differently.
JT: so the difference is it's mostly, I think, in the size, whereas Ghostwater was like essentially some guy's home. The pocket dimensions that are these huge areas like Nightwheel Valley are usually the control of a whole sect. like the Akura clan, they are a cultivation sect in this world, they create their own miniature universe where everything is the way that they want to, everything is, helpful to their path.
Jonathan: Nice.
JT: It's also currently in use, which is, seemingly, at least, what Ghost Water wasn't, because it basically abandoned at the beginning.
Jonathan: we had a question we were discussing before the episode where, if you know [00:24:00] what the book Underlord, the cover looks like, we were going back and forth on what it actually would be. And, uh, well, we've been going through the episode. I did a quick Google, I did the Googles other people asked the same question, not a surprise.
This person said, I haven't the slightest clue about what Underlord is supposed to be for the cover, other than it looks cool. Does anyone know? And someone said they're pretty sure it's the Heaven's Drop, that, Aethon dips the spirit well water on. They quoted this from the, the book, the Spirit Well Water fell into the construct and it was absorbed as though the energy drank it down.
As the water vanished, the heavens drop grew brighter and brighter from a transparent and colorless gray green to an almost blinding emerald, the scripted circles around the outside of the construct spun faster until it spat out bolts of vivid green lightning.
JT: a,
Casey: That's it. Sounds like, It was like, just the one scene that I was in. And that's the cover?
Jonathan: guess [00:25:00] so,
JT: there must be a profound mystery behind that.
Matt: I mean, it was a pretty important scene.
Jonathan: I thought it was, the thing that, Linden used to cultivate his Underlord growth from the Emperor's, vault that
Aethan gave him, but I was supposedly wrong about that.
Matt: Well, from the Heaven's Drop, Linden's Doesn't he go, uh, his pure core? And then Yeren gets, like, extra gold signs?
Jonathan: that happens from
the, the Heaven's Drop. Right.
Matt: And then right after that, Orthos says goodbye. So maybe he thought that was just a very meaningful part in the story. Might as well put that on the cover
Jonathan: You trying to make me cry this morning?
With Orthos leaving? Dude, this that's my favorite part of this whole series.
Casey: Why Why do you hate Orthos?
Matt: I don't hate orthos. I the way The way that it was written It was just it was the by far the most emotional part of the entire book or the entire series up until this point To where you actually had like a that heart tug [00:26:00] feeling about orthos because orthos was always just that gruff
Casey: Curmudgeon.
Matt: And if you listen to it on audible, he voiced Orthos really, really well, I think, and it was just very, very grumbly, like he always had gravel in the back of his throat, and then he's just like, I must go on and
forge my own path, pretty much, and it was just like Yeren was crying, Linden was crying, everybody was crying, even Mercy was crying, Aethon, they even wrote, he had like a, A sparkle in his eye or something like that.
Hinting that he was like, tearing up, It was very, very well written, and the goodbye, I think, was It didn't, it didn't outstay its welcome either, to where it was just like, Everybody cry, and keep crying. It was just, Orthos said the thing, he's leaving, everybody cried, said goodbye, and then they move on.
And that was all right after the heavens drop, too, Orthos realized like, oh, he surpassed me. I knew he was going to, but it's still bittersweet. So now I have to go on a, on separate walkabout pretty much. And then at the end of the book, we had no, I had no [00:27:00] idea that that's where he was going to go.
I had no idea.
Jonathan: did I. First time I read
Matt: that blew me
away. Once he started opening, was it the epilogue
or was it
just the lat, was it? Okay. Cause he just started talking about Kelsa, Kelsa, this Kelsa, that Kelsa, this Kelsa, that, and then she's fighting heaven's glory. I was like, Oh, so we're back in sacred Valley.
And then he had said wei shi kao sa a couple other times, like, okay, so that's his sister.
And then Orthos shows up like, oh my jeez, break.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Matt: It was very, very great ending to this book too.
Jonathan: So
good. So
Casey: I guess that's a good transition to our favorite scenes, because I think that's yours.
Matt: Definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely.
JT: It was also mine. I loved the, way that he, maintains a look on his other characters. It's something I appreciate in a lot of novels. It's something that the, cultivation novels from China don't do. They focus entirely on one character. and they give out snippets, Dragon Ball [00:28:00] style, where they'll tease the next villain, perhaps, but they'll never go back and look at other characters somewhere else in the universe.
Jonathan: Oh, that's a bummer.
Matt: Rip Yamcha
JT: It's supposed to be, more equivalent to, like, a historical kind of account, a lot in the way it reads, where it's, you never really get the sense of what the character is thinking, unless it states it explicitly. It often just is a count of how, what the character is doing.
Jonathan: that's curious to me though, because I would think, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, because you probably have more information on this, but, Asian culture is more collective than individualistic. So I find it curious that the novels. More individualistic if they're following just a single person as opposed to like I don't know a better word But like fellowship or a small group or like
Matt: clan.
Jonathan: people a clan.
Yeah, that's a good. Yeah.
JT: China took, it wrung out all of its capitalism, all of its individualist [00:29:00] ideas, and they distilled it into this perfect genre.
Jonathan: I
Casey: You call this genre perfect?
JT: Yes. I read it so much.
Jonathan: there's so many things I want to say
right
JT: No, this is when they, uh, it's sort of a joke, of course, but they are natural capitalists in a lot of ways. The Chinese, it's,
they love to be,
Jonathan: as in like power rules all natural or something else
JT: well, power rules all, and also they're Usually when you think of communists, you think somebody who's well, well, we're working for the good of the collective. We're selling things for the good of the collective, be of exchanging between people, but that's not how the Chinese think.
The Chinese think, I'm going to wring every penny out of you, and if you're not trying to avoid wringing, me wringing every penny out of you, then you're not doing it right. Their [00:30:00] communist society works a lot like how I would expect a libertarian society to work.
Jonathan: hmm
Casey: Except at the high levels.
JT: Which brings us into, the idea of western versus eastern kind of storytelling, which I bet you guys have some interesting perspectives on because I've seen the eastern side of it. I wanted to see if you thought there was anything that jumped out to you that's, oh, this is very eastern.
Matt: so I'm a big DBZ fan too. I watched a lot of Dragon Ball Z, and Jonathan actually told me about this series, and he said it was DBZ Now, I can see where somebody who hasn't really watched a lot of Dragon Ball Z would say that.
but it does have some moments, like the, the infinite power level ups. Like it's just, you, you reach a wall in the story, you fight a villain or whatever conflict you're in, and then you just, you go to the next level and then it's like this big cool thing and then you move on.
And then [00:31:00] you hit the other wall and then you climb. It's basically just this giant staircase of power levels. So that I think is the closest way that
who hasn't seen Dragon Ball Z would be able to equate the two. but as far as the whole Eastern and Western,
Casey: the whole Eastern vs. Western, um, our predictions are based on C practices. The values make the man
sort of thing. Like your, your, your personal morals are important. You see that a lot in comic books, you know, all the superheroes, you know, their personal morals are more important than the fight that they're currently in. Not so much on the Eastern side. If you can't win the fight that you're in, your morals don't matter.
You're dead. So strength trumps all in a lot of Eastern literature. If you can negotiate and. Ring out every [00:32:00] drop of power from everything you get your hands on, then you can enforce your ideals upon everyone else.
Jonathan: I just need to interject one second. Correct Matt I did not say DBZ in space.
Matt: Yes, you did.
Jonathan: I did No. I said DBZ in book form.
Matt: No, you said DBZ in space.
Jonathan: I did not.
Matt: Yes, you did. It, it doesn't make sense. That's
why. No. I was about to ask about that, No take backsies. You're misremembering. No. I said that there are moments where these Abaddon from space interact with the planet, but I said I've, cause I've said this to so many people
Jonathan: I've said this is Spencer, Slava, you It's Dragon Ball Z in book form.
Matt: Well, they already have that and it's called the manga and it still doesn't equate.
Jonathan: No, no. It's different.
JT: I'm a little curious though with the space stuff, because that's something that I wanted to bring up during the session, is the way that the Chinese genre approaches how the world works in terms of the physics of it, they [00:33:00] don't have space. There is no space in these books. there is the mortal plane, which may as well be flat earth for all you care.
it's infinite, it does not wrap around, as far as I can tell, and they use teleporting pads to get around. it's interesting because they often talk about the sun, the moon, the stars, but they don't ever, they never question, oh, I could go there. They may as well be different dimensions, or the holes in the celestial firmament.
Matt: Well, I think that's, it's interesting that you say that too, but I think it's the people who don't think about it, the majority of the world or, cradle they're just not at a level high enough to think about that. But the higher that you go, getting all the way to. Abaddon and stuff like that. You're pretty much existing outside of that realm in space, for lack of a better term.
So I feel like it's just the fewer people who have the abilities or the capabilities [00:34:00] to get to that power level. They just don't care because they know that they're just never going to get there. So the curiosity is pretty much stifled by the people holding that power
that they can just
tell them what they need to know.
Casey: them what they need to do. The thing that
I, maybe that's of an easy fear, is or Nathan. And, and, like I
Spenser: I don't have a ton of knowledge of Eastern vs. Western writing. I haven't I haven't really read any Eastern, You know, genre stuff. my perspective would be, obviously all Western, I think. Yeah, from my perspective, I don't really have, have much to offer on that. but one thing that I, That I saw in the, in the, in the series as a whole is Aethan and Linden's sort of mentorship. Um, and I thought that was interesting because I don't feel like we do that much here in, in Western culture. where you have a mentor who kind of takes on a younger, [00:35:00] mentee I don't know, maybe that's more of an Eastern thing. Uh, again, I don't really know much about that over there. here it's, It's all about yourself and kind of individualism and how you just kind of pull yourself up by your bootstraps and take on the world and it almost feels like it's up to your, your own self to make your own path what we see with Aethan and Linden is Aethan sees somebody who, who is weak, who doesn't have a lot of power, but he sees potential, and so he wants to cultivate that in Linden.
And that's something that I think is, is very beautiful. Ethan is someone who is willing to, step outside of his own comfort zone and to take on the challenge of mentoring someone who he thinks has the potential to be something great.
and, and, and so like I said, I don't, I don't really see that much here in Western culture.
It's all about, you know, like once you turn 18,
it's kind of like up to your own to go find that help or to go make your own path. And so, [00:36:00] uh, I would love to see more,
mentorship type programs here in the West.
Casey: A to take on,
Spenser: take on,
Casey: Progression
Spenser: challenges, you know, greater than themselves.
So, yeah, Slava, what do you think you've been kind of quiet for a little while?
Slava: Yeah, well, I want to dovetail what you just said, because the individualism versus More corporate approach to advancement between the East and the West. I find that interesting, like from the Eastern perspective, the way I understand it, there's more interconnectedness and balance, right? So there's the balance between body, spirit, and external forces like aura.
You have more linear and individualistic progression in the West, where from the Eastern perspective, it's more cyclical and meditative, requiring characters to sometimes even revisit it.
Past [00:37:00] experiences that feeds into current experiences. The stuff that you mentioned, Matt, when you hit a wall, what I've noticed is both Yaron and Lyndon kind of reflecting back on what has happened before in their past lives, overcoming that, but also using it as a catalyst. Catapult for
lack of a better term in
their
current progression,
whatever the wall they hit to use your words in the current book, they use that
to beat the enemy, to overcome the current obstacles.
So Eastern themes also emphasize like harmony with the world that you find yourself in and acceptance. Of one's place in the greater whole during this journey. Like, so there's like more
than one thing happening
where again, in the West, it's more linear. You get to 18, then you get to the next thing, then you get your career,
then you get
the wife, the house, the white picket fence,
whatever
it is that you're trying to achieve.
So, my limited [00:38:00] knowledge of East versus
West,
that's how I've, how I look at it.
Matt: I feel like in this series, it's Will White's interpretation of Eastern storytelling. That too?
it's a good I think, of the two cultures as far as storytelling, character development, stuff like that. Because, going back to Spencer's point, the whole discipleship aspect of it, in Eastern culture, the disciple would always seek out the
mentor. Or most, most of the time. Obviously, there's, Exceptions,
but most of the time it's like, all right, I have left home. I have to get better to make my clan better. They choose a profession. They choose where they want to go and they want to go find somebody who is better than them and learn from them and then foster that relationship and then. You know, serve the better, betterment of the community
in Western culture.
The majority of the stories are always just about this lone wolf traveling the wastes, traveling the desert, and [00:39:00] just doing stuff all by himself. Very seldom do they go and either seek out, a mentor, or they just bump into
somebody who just happens to be plot device
and just makes them stronger.
And that's the, the cool thing of how I think George Lucas handled the hero's journey. We've all heard that term before. Hero's Journey. And I put in, I made some notes about this, and it was, the Cradle series is the hero's journey
full of anti heroes.
because of how they're written, because they all so desperately want to do their own thing, but they can't because they have this wall that they have to break through
together. Because otherwise they won't
be able to get through it.
With Linden being the exception.
Slava: you took the words right out of my mouth, Will White's borrowing from
a western framework, specifically the Hero's
Journey, putting
Linden and Yeren into this framework, the characters undergo trials, they grow in power, And ultimately
transform into [00:40:00] something
greater,
the western side of it, there's an end, you achieve this thing,
you grow in power, you transform, and end of story.
And back to JT's point, there's this kind of an ongoing transformation
in the
eastern
framework.
Matt: And then that runs directly into our, our next kind of topic is the revelation. the Underlord revelation for Linden was He doesn't want to be considered worthless. So he wants to find his spot in the Collective to protect his home, his family, and all that other kind of stuff.
JT: I had the opposite feeling about The Underlord Revelation. I loved it from the perspective of it's a fantastic plot device, as well as a classic kind of way of doing advancement in these, cultivation novels. he's definitely made it his own.
I've never seen this particular one before, but, there's a lot of throughlines. back to the original genre, I didn't see his, revelation as being collective. I saw it as being him [00:41:00] putting away his dependence on his early life and saying, I, I'm doing this because I didn't want to be worthless.
Now I'm kind of showing that I'm not, I've realized that about myself, whatever else, think about that. Cause I, I really thought that it was a. It's a cool moment for, I think, a couple, was it a couple people in there? Yaren had her Underlord Revelation, Mercy had her Underlord Revelation,
Casey: But, I would say, it's interesting to me that it wasn't like a personal revelation about, you know, well, I guess it was a personal revelation about why they're doing it, but it all comes down to, you know, the various fears or insecurities
about themselves. That's why I wasn't expecting. I was thinking it was going to be, you know, something more positive, but it ultimately comes down [00:42:00] to, you know, want to be left behind. I don't want to be weak again.
Slava: Yeah, I don't want to
see people around me die.
Casey: I don't want my mom to be right. That last one I can empathize with sometimes.
Jonathan: I love the concept of needing, and this goes into not to bring everything back to Stormlight, but like, this is why I love progression fantasy is the idea that the only way to actually grow. In life is to self reflect and it's a deep theme throughout, most progression fantasy that I've seen, because at some point in the journey, you have to turn inward to get stronger, to grow, to get more power, et cetera, et cetera, because frankly, uh, and this is like a real world quip.
You are your own worst enemy and your glass ceiling is your fault. It's not the stuff that's happened to you. it's not the cards you were dealt. Everyone has dealt different cards
Yeah. Some people were given better cards than others. if you've been listening for a long time, like I have a birth defect that deeply impacts my life literally day to day. And people can't [00:43:00] understand that. And I don't expect them to my body's different. I don't have a large intestine and it causes me a lot of issues. And, uh, one of those issues is kidney stones and almost daily. So like, I don't expect you to understand. I don't expect you to need to understand, but that doesn't change the fact that I have to deal with it and engage in the world differently than you do, but your stuff might be that you had a traumatic childhood or your parents like abandoned you or whatever it is like.
You have to, if you want to grow, if you want to become an underlord to keep it relevant, you have to choose to turn inward and go, What are the things that I currently believe that are not true? Or what are the things that I currently am doing that are not actually helping me get further in a life that I want?
And am I willing to change that? It's what Lyndon goes through, it's what Yaron goes through to get that, power up. Mercy is a little different because she was, you know, trapped by her own, uh, needing to go off and be a little different from her family. But, like, you have to choose, like, oh, this is why I do the things that I do.
And then choose to [00:44:00] integrate that to quote Carl Jung, one of the earliest psychologists that we recognize. And then from there, you can, you can level up. You can, you can get that soul fire and go, okay, this is the purpose by which I'm living my life. How do I integrate that? How do I use that to move forward and let it propel me?
Or do I say, you know what? That doesn't serve me anymore. I need to do something else. So, kind of a strong deviation, uh, as I, voice these things. But, those are my. Inklings and thoughts and, and mullings in terms of progression fantasy real life. as Slava calls it worldview.
Slava: Well in Underlord this self reflection that you're talking about will Why directly ties it to the cultivation and progression system, right? Characters cannot advance without understanding their fears their desires their motivations and to your point Jonathan, it kind of mirrors real life progress in our lives requires confronting and resolving these inner conflicts, whether it's a birth defect, uh, an abusive [00:45:00] home, abandonment, whatever, wherever the hell it is.
Jonathan: A hundred percent.
JT: I love how it also implies something as well about the rest of the world, if Understanding yourself is basically the only thing you need to do to become Underlord. How many sacred artists are stuck at the peak of True Gold, sitting there wondering, What don't I understand about myself?
Jonathan: Boom.
Slava: I think for us as readers, we get to connect with characters on a more personal level as, they reveal their vulnerabilities, their struggles, that's where we find a connection. That's why I've mentioned numerous times that. Yaren is my favorite character, because I connect with her, on a few different levels, and how she responds to things is very much akin to how I responded when I was younger, and maybe sometimes still respond to things.
Casey: it does also bring up the thought that each of those who have made it to or past [00:46:00] Underlord in the series have had to come to this confrontation with themselves, and those who are attempting to reach Underlord would have had to have that confrontation. People like Akura Harmony from the last one. I don't think he would have had the self reflection necessary in order to become Underlord, even if he managed to figure out the, uh the whole issue with forming his inner space. He just did not seem like the type of individual who would be capable of that.
Jonathan: I like this train of thought. Give me a little more on that. What sticks out to you as, as to why he wouldn't have been capable of that.
Casey: He was very, not just self focused, but to an obsessive degree. If you disturbed his peace, he would lash out with such force that he would usually kill anyone that was lower than his level of true gold. And even other Trugolds had a hard time with it. Everyone was silent around him when they first entered Ghostwater. They were basically saying, okay, Big Dog [00:47:00] doesn't like people speaking up. Don't say anything. And he, funny enough, does not have the inner harmony that his name would imply. Which I think applies, let's go on a little side quest here, to every single one of the Akura that we've seen so far, aside maybe from Mercy. Their names are given to them, ironically, by Will White.
JT: I disagree.
Jonathan: Fight
fight.
JT: Brother against brother.
Casey: Why do you betray me, brother?
JT: so Harmony is harmonious. Now, he's not harmonious with other people, but he is full of Inner harmony with himself. I actually disagree with the Underlord Revelation. I think he probably does understand that he is a cold blooded person. and that that's really the intent behind the name is what I would guess.
it's not direct. [00:48:00] It's not like, your name is Mercy. And so you always give people mercy. Your name is Harmony. So you're, you're always in harmony with others. But there is a, a bit of a through line to that.
Casey: But it feels like for each one, even though, you could say that they have, like, he's got harmony because, you know, he's got this calm. He's cold and he knows it. When someone threatens that harmony, he responds with such, like, force and anger, almost. Not anger, I guess. He's just like, calmly kills them. Doesn't matter to him.
JT: Well, that's how you maintain
Casey: Maintain harmony.
That's what I'm saying. There's like an underlying irony to each of the names.
Like charity?
Matt: She's not very
Casey: The gifts of charity. No, she does give charitable gifts, but there's a spiteful poison to each of the gifts that she gives. She allowed, the Empire, whatever, to strike at the Black Flame, or sorry, the kingdom, the [00:49:00] Sacian kingdom, to strike at the Black Flame. With impunity, but that only inspired, you know, a counter strike from the Black Flame Empire that ended up killing one of the, uh, the princes. The favored prince, even. Then she allowed the, uh, the Black Flame to go at the vault that the Ikura Clan had there. But she also warned the Satian Empire and gave them, you know, the prep time necessary to turn into a trap. And then she allowed the Satian princes a second chance to go after Linden, but that ended up killing one of them. So every one of the gifts so far that she's been given is like a trap in the form of a gift of charity.
Spenser: Yeah, I have a, I have a thought on that. kind of going back to, to harmony, him having harmony, within himself, the definition is, I mean, there's, there's kind of a few, but one of them is a pleasing or, uh, congruent arrangement of, Parts characterized by balance, peace, or mutual understanding, or also, a state of [00:50:00] balance and alignment between different aspects of life, you know, such as one's thoughts, feelings or actions. so, Going back, I think it was JT's point about Harmony being, in harmony with who he is as a person. Uh, that makes sense to me. because one thing that I find interesting is There are going to be people that we meet later on in the series who we would consider quote unquote evil, who are definitely evil. past the Underlord phase, and so they had to come to a conclusion about themselves. And so, I find it interesting that we, like our main characters, we focus on them being, they had to come to this personal conclusion about themselves and we think it might be good or, they are progressing maybe morally even, uh, whereas characters that we see later on who, like, gather, quote unquote, or definitely antagonists in the series where they've also had to have Underlord revelations about themselves and those
might be similar to like [00:51:00] maybe Harmony if he would have had his where he was content with who he was as a person and he would have known
Like, yeah, I'm just a killer or, and, and I'm okay with that.
And that would have been enough to get him to his underlord
stage.
Casey: to be saying,
Slava: I'm gonna plead agnostic, I can see what Kasey is saying, and I can see what JT is saying. if I was going to play Devil's Advocate, I would say, sure, he does have harmony, but it's important to note that his form of harmony with himself, or inner harmony, is deeply flawed.
Things like his arrogance, his bloodedness, is An example is evidence of a lack of self reflection or poor self reflection, but it's not a hill I'm willing to die on because I see both sides. I can see how it can be argued from both positions.
JT: So, do we, I forget, uh, at this point in the story, have we learned what [00:52:00] Mercy's mother's name is yet?
Spenser: Yeah. I'm pretty sure we've seen that along the way up to this point.
Matt: There's been no interaction with her. I don't think, but I'm pretty sure that it's a known
name at
JT: Yeah. Other than that one scene you had with Mercy in this book. So, it'll be interesting to see what your opinions are going forward. Because you'll see more of these, Akura characters going forward.
Jonathan: in the next book as they prep for the tournament and Lyndon has been Pulled into the
yes
drafted. That's a good.
Matt: Drafted.
Jonathan: It's one way to put it
JT: first round pick. Alright,
Casey: my first pick, I'm going to take your star
player.
Jonathan: rookie season if you will
Matt: Close. Yeah, pretty much.
Slava: All right. Well, if you guys are enjoying today's PsyQuest, show your support by sharing this episode with a fellow book lover, because every journey is worth it. As [00:53:00] Jonathan often tells me, it's better with friends.
Jonathan: have to tell you that.
Slava: Yeah, you do.
Jonathan: Oh, okay.
Casey: your schedule or something? Remind Slava.
Slava: Exactly.
Jonathan: a monthly text that goes out
Matt: Monthly.
Slava: It's a reminder text. Slava, you can't just keep getting new co hosts and bumping me off.
Jonathan: It's like a parent reminding their child to get to lunch before they leave for school. Don't forget your lunch Don't forget friends are better.
Matt: Say no to drugs.
Jonathan: Oh, we don't say that one.
JT: so I was thinking about, looking at a couple of hot takes. What are, what are people's, I know we've had some arguments already, but some people's real hot takes on, this series so far, but especially on this current book.
Matt: I'm not a big fan of Mercy. I think she is the equivalent of Team Jacob to Twilight.
Casey: No mercy run.
JT: Explain that.
Matt: So, I don't know how familiar you guys are with
Twilight.
Jonathan: that we're not,
let's
pretend that we're all ignorant. Sure. [00:54:00] that's, pretty much it. Slava nailed it. You've got Team Jacob and Team Edward. Edward is the vampire who's like the main love for Twilight. I know all this because I watched it with a girlfriend I was in high school with. Um,
Casey: My condolences. I've
Matt: I have dog eared a couple just for these such occasions but anyways, Edward is like the first kind of character and then through a couple of the books you meet this guy Jacob and he's like the mercy, the secondary love interest who's just really good at what he does but he's always
opposed to Edward and then the main character Bella or Lyndon always has to kind of
Is either forced to or is forced into
choosing one or the other.
And Mercy
is always just the equivalent of Team Jacob because
she's great. She's cool. She's got lots of power. She's [00:55:00] very, very strong. She's good to Linden, but we all know that it's not going to happen.
JT: we?
Matt: Do we.
Spenser: Yeah, have we seen any, love, um,
or romantic
scenes between either of these three?
Matt: is a lot of tension between all of these characters, I
think.
Casey: It's mostly just been, you know, I'd say this past book where we start to see any real romantic tension. It is mostly just friend tension up to this point. Especially, you know, we had the whole thing with Ghostwater where they're all separated. It was Mercy and Yeren and then Linden was stuck with Orthos. So it's the equivalent of a split gang will search for clues. The girls go with way and then Shaggy and your pet go that way.
Jonathan: Yeah. I don't see the analogy that you're building here. I haven't read twilight. So maybe it's just, I don't have the nuance here, Matt, but [00:56:00] I don't feel like, cause mercy, mercy's entire personality, and maybe it's just cause I don't have the nuance, but her personality is like, I want to be friends with everyone.
Even when we see her originally and. Uh, Linden doesn't know the Ikora family at all. Which, and there's like a contest for the Skysworn and she's like, hi, I'm Mercy. And she helps the kid that just got beat up by Linden. she's friendly. She just wants to be friends with everyone because she wasn't raised with any friends.
She was raised alone, basically in solitude. And her whole family doesn't like her because they're all not as powerful as her, um, for the people that are like at her level, quote unquote. And so I, I kind of see the romantic tension you're talking about, but not Anywhere else in, in their trio. Cause they're all like traveling together, doing the same stuff.
She is a little resistant in terms of topics that are not relevant to romance, but I don't see it.
JT: I'm thinking that the point Matt was trying to make was that, she was [00:57:00] introduced. And this sort of love tri the possible love triangle is there for the purpose of what we're doing now. Speculation about will they or won't they.
Slava: I've noticed that, tension that you're talking about, Matt, and I mentioned in previous episodes, I see Yeren changing her disposition towards Linden very so slightly where she's processing like, Oh, and I'm putting words in her mouth. This is how I'm reading the scene. Oh, this is more than just a traveling companion or a brother.
So her sisterly affections. Are starting to ever so slightly feel like more romantic. kind of feel like she's processing, Oh, do I like him? Do I not like him? What is this? What is this thing that I'm feeling? So, with my hot take, I said that Linden hooks up with Mercy, And Yaren goes absolutely ape. Like the second that Yaren finds out. She wouldn't just lose her mind. [00:58:00] She'd straight up try to punch Lyndon or hit him with the endless sword. Say something like, Oh, you think that little library nerd is better than me?
Matt: Would she hit Lyndon or Would
she attack Mercy?
Slava: Probably
both, poor Lyndon is like, Hey, you know, it was the aura that messed with my head.
Like, you know, Back me up, Dross. And meanwhile, Dross is like
full troll mode going,
Hey bro, you're
on
your own for this one.
JT: That would be a funny scene.
Casey: I don't have enough data on Yeren's love life. Please gather some more for me so I can create a paradigm for you to follow.
Slava: of course, would show up late, surveying all the damage and saying something like, Linden, I always knew you had terrible taste in women.
Casey: No, No, no, It'd be worse than that. He'd be already there. He's just like in the background watching the whole thing because that's how he operates. He's, he's the author of Fiat. He is a deus ex machina. He just shows up whenever he is needed because he's always been there.
Matt: and that's his superpower too. He's just, I know everything and what everybody's going to do.
Casey: Can you ever [00:59:00] be wrong? I have yet to do so.
Please be wrong
sometimes.
I can't do that.
Slava: I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken. Now you're starting to sound like me.
Casey: that's sort of my hot take. A Athan, up to this point, is basically just An author, okay, Linda needs X materials, uh, advice in this, Yara needs sort of, show her the path to go onto, alright, we've got all the, uh, the checks checked Alfre up right there.
JT: he absolutely is an It's funny that, in these novels, you constantly have to balance giving your, characters convincingly powerful enemies to fight. But if you give them enemies that are really, really powerful, and they're not quite ready yet, you also have to give them some way to advance. I've seen other authors do this by random chance you find an item or discover some opportunity.
being able to find opportunity within adversity is a constant [01:00:00] theme of, Cynthia Cultivation novels. But in Will White's universe, that job is almost solely taken up by Ethan, who comes along and says, Oh, you need a power up. Uh, and he plays around with this. Uh, some of it is an in joke. Do you guys remember the scene from, believe it was Black Flame, where he first introduces Black Flame as a path to Linden?
Uh, and in Linden is, they're going down to the, the room with all of the, the histories of all the paths, and he says, Hey, this has got everything in it. And Linda goes, well, can I just see the most powerful ones? He's like, do you really think that we would give you access to our, the top paths available?
Well, yeah, here they are. That was an in joke. That was an in joke because normally those kinds of things in these novels are jealously guarded [01:01:00] and never given out to anybody, even if you lose nothing by doing so. he is definitely Deus Ex Machina. He is Will White's self insert, if I were to take a guess.
Matt: insert.
Jonathan: I disagree. The archetype of the mentor is supposed to guide along the journey. Gandalf does the same thing. Now, granted Tolkien, Was a lot less direct in what he gives, which is where I think the deus ex machina comments are coming from, but because it's a cultivation novel, because it's like very fast paced, white doesn't.
And, and I mean, feel free to challenge me on this, but there's no one moment that white ever sits on. It's just like, boom, two seconds, boom, two seconds, boom. And you're like having this emotional journey and he never sits on these moments, which I think would have been more fun. I said this in one of the earlier episodes for Underlord where, I think that it would have been nice to sit on the moment of Yeren's death, toting the line of death a little longer.
but he [01:02:00] doesn't do that. Every, every book that he writes is so fast paced I think that, Ethan showing up and doing these things, seems deus ex machina, but, I think, and this is for the people who've finished reading the series, that it's honestly just really good foreshadowing. Now, careful how you talk about it, because two of our constituents have not gotten there yet, but that's, those are my thoughts.
Spenser: Yeah, I can see both points, because I've definitely felt at times in the story where Linden's about to die or he's, you know, Facing a, a foe who is, significantly more advanced than he is, and then all of a sudden Ahan shows up outta nowhere and just gives him the thing that he needs in order to
Exactly. Trumpet's blaring for sure.
Uh, but in order for, for Lynden to be able to fight or to advance or, or whatever the, the situation may be. But,
then, uh, yeah, at the same time, Ahan is, is a mentor to, to Lynden and so he's constantly looking out for him. And Ahan is obviously significantly more,
advanced.
Then Linden up to this point in the series
[01:03:00] and so,
it kind of makes sense that he would kind of know the things to do in order to advance or the things that Lyndon needs. so I guess I don't really have, like one way or the other in which I think, but I can definitely see why, why both points being, viewed the way they are.
Jonathan: very Switzerland of you, Spencer.
Spenser: Yes, thank you,
I,
Matt: Way to sit on that fence.
Spenser: Heh yep.
Slava: why don't you tell us your, uh, absolutely wrong hot take though.
Spenser: Heh heh, okay, slava. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, yeah, I think Yaren's quips and one liners aren't that funny. Uh, I think
sometimes she,
I know, huh?
Jonathan: and bury me.
Spenser: Yeah, feel free to, to, uh, disagree with me on this, but, yeah, I think there are some times she, she throws things out there, and I'm just like, ah, that,
I didn't find that funny, it just felt a little bit
In some aspects childish in certain, certain scenes, yeah, I don't know. That's just my hot take.
Matt: So I actually disagree quite a bit [01:04:00] with that because it's, I think they're funny, that's just a personal preference, but I think that he wrote it that way because when she ended up living with the sword sage, When they went through his little story, he was very gruff, salty, loner kind of guy, but he was an older guy.
Whereas she is just a child picking up all of these mannerisms from this old man. And that's all she's ever really known for years and years and years. So that translates to
now she's sitting with Lyndon and Mercy who have had families and, and stuff like that. And remember what that's all like. And that's why she just stands out as this very
weird, quirky
being in
the story and why she has those sayings.
Like the whole bleed
and bury me. I just think
that's
hilarious.
Slava: that definitely sounds like something an old man would say. Not a 17 year old girl.
Casey: It's not a, that feels [01:05:00] real. Funny one liner or joke from her off the top of my head. I can remember stuff from like, Linden and Orthos and, his little ghost companion, Dross, but I can even remember stuff like Ethan's introduction where he's basically, uh, bowing and scraping in order to get into the, uh, You know, get himself quote unquote enslaved and put into
the
uh, the temple,
Jonathan: the Jai clan.
Matt: the Jai Kalyan temple, yeah.
Casey: remember a single joke with any clarity from Yeren.
JT: She is sort of the Drax the Destroyer from Guardians of the Galaxy. If you guys remember, he's
the
Spenser: nothing that,
my head. I would catch it.
JT: yeah, exactly. But she says things that are supposed to be funny to the reader, but often times she's saying them in a more serious way. Okay. If he were actually there, [01:06:00] she's deadpan saying something.
it might come off as funny as we're reading. It's a bit of the, the Marvel humor.
Jonathan: How has no one killed you yet? just read a few of these lines for us. If I saw you on fire, I'd hold an umbrella for you so the rain didn't put you out. When a traveler cannot find a path, sometimes he must make his own. That one's less funny. Oh, where's that one that I was thinking of? I expect you all to carry me like a rescued princess.
JT: Is that Ethan?
Jonathan: this is all this is all I looked up urine Oh, okay.
Spenser: have been a lot funnier if would have made you're making a joke to me and i'm thinking over here trying to look these things up uh Let's see. What do you have any that you can think of off the top of your head for the other people who are this is funny.
Matt: Not off the top of my head, but I just know that every time she has like a little quip or something like that, I chuckle.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Matt: Just because it is, it's so out of place for whatever situation that they're in.
Jonathan: one of the key lines in Underlord that I really love is when she's talking with Lyndon about the Uncrowned King Tournament and he's like, what's the final prize? And she's like, you asked me, but who am I supposed [01:07:00] to ask? she's just like, I don't know, but it's just very Yaren.
JT: She's kind of there to diffuse tension. you get some tension in the, the scene, and then she comes up with a one liner that might be extremely applicable to that particular situation, but it also pulls you out a little bit of the tension, and whether or not you like that is probably dependent on how, averse you are to having that tension.
Matt: And that's where, like you said, it's that Marvel humor, where it does seem sort of out of place in the serious situations, but it's that comic relief, but it's not from the character that you expect. Whereas Drax is, you know that he's the comic relief, because he has lines like, like Spencer said, Nothing goes over my head, I would catch it.
All in the middle of a serious conversation of world and universe ending events. It's just like, I get it, it comes from Drax, but Yeren, the more serious, 99 percent of the time, Throws some of [01:08:00] those jokes out there and it's just like,
JT: I enjoyed her one liners.
Jonathan: They're not for everybody. They just, just like not all humorous for everybody. So I'll say that Spencer, I disagree with you, but, I don't think that they're meant to be to other people's point. It's not like, uh, it's not eighth and funny where he's like, my skin. Don't mess with my skin. It's my best feature. It's It's different.
Spenser: and
that's why that's my hot take.
JT: yeah.
Jonathan: Brilliant.
JT: hot take is that I think that, I love infuriating characters. And I think Charity was that, and Prince Daji especially, Characters that you can love to hate.
I've been thinking about this for a little bit. big bad evil characters are absolutely fantastic, but they're not as fun as characters that aren't quite as bad, but are way more hated.
I think about it like, yes, Dolores Umbridge versus Voldemort. Voldemort is undoubtedly the more evil character, and yet you feel so much more vindicated when [01:09:00] Dolores Umbridge gets killed. Kicked out of Hogwarts.
Matt: Oh, Harry Potter
reference.
Okay.
Casey: I call
Spenser: Or when,
Casey: by Centaurs.
Spenser: I was just gonna say, yeah, when she gets carried away by the centaurs. That was a, that was a great
JT: Yeah, but it's every you cheer for their loss in a way that you don't for the Pure evil characters because pure evil you may just you don't hate them because they're pure evil You might as well hate tsunamis for destroying houses. It just it's weather. It happens Pure evil is like that, whereas corrupt evil, some sort of character that's, uh, you should be on my side, you should be able to empathize or sympathize with me, but you're not. that's what dodgy, I think, is especially, starting from this book, is, oh, I, I'm just a snot nosed kid who has way more power than I know what to do with, and I'm going to hate you [01:10:00] forever.
Casey: I'm just a kid, I'm gonna make it everyone else's problem. I'm just a kid, my life is a nightmare
Jonathan: Mm. Thank you, SimplePlan.
Spenser: ha! ha! ha! Ha
ha! Ha ha! ha! Ha I think Charity was also that in this book as well a couple times, where, once again, think back to, uh, the point that Casey made. Charity would constantly do something to mess up whatever's happening, be mysterious on purpose, constantly makes you, oh man, so annoyed at this Charity woman. Come
JT: on.
Casey: pot stirrer.
JT: Right. That's exactly what she was in this book.
Jonathan: A meddler of sorts.
Great.
Casey: What was it? Deadpool said, I don't take the shits, I just stir them.
Jonathan: That's a, that's a, an apt image, compared to
JT's intro this morning for us.
JT: It's a year intake.
Jonathan: My hot take is that Dross [01:11:00] becomes really good friends with, LittleBlue and Orthos, and they all just talk about Linden. In front of him slash in his mind. I really want to see that. I also want to see Cassius get a one up on Ethan at some point. and Ethan be surprised.
Matt: I just want to see Apon surprised.
Jonathan: He was
Spenser: There, I was just gonna, yeah, that was, uh, that was one of my favorite scenes in the book actually, was when Dross, uh, when Linden reveals Dross to Aethon, Aethon was legitimately surprised that Linden had Dross and that he was hiding him that Linden was hiding Dross from Aethon. Just the look of pure shock, imagine, on Aethon's face would have been glorious to Linden.
Casey: It's too bad he didn't have a camera to capture that moment forever.
Matt: Yeah, thanks Dross.
Jonathan: Rude.
Slava: this brings us to a fun portion of SideQuest. you guys listened to the rough edits of the previous two episodes where Jonathan and I created our own paths and what techniques we would have. I'm curious, [01:12:00] we'll start with you, Casey. What would be your sacred arch path? If you were in this world of Cradle.
Casey: I came up with The Path of the Grasping Abyssal
Maw. What is, eaten becomes fuel for growth. The stronger, the more rare the ingredients you eat, the more powerful ones becomes. It's like, instead of the spiritual consumption that you see with a lot of the cultivation materials, it's actually physically eating the stuff, making dishes out of it.
Matt: So you would have enjoyed Ghostwater quite a bit then.
Casey: Oh yeah,
probably.
Matt: them fish, or the carp.
Casey: Man, fish is good food. My dad does not think so.
He is very anti fish.
Fishless.
Jonathan: that gives you a stomachache?
Casey: Weak constitution. You will never ascend to Nirvana.
Matt: Rolls on that one on constitution saves.
Jonathan: I try to eat the fish. It's alive and slaps me in the face.
Casey: Anyway, those drawn to the path of the Abyssal [01:13:00] Law would be stalwart, stubborn, have not just an interest in eating, then all the other parts of it, like cooking, hunting, gathering, harvesting, so it's just, you know, everything related to, you know, the Abyssal Law. Cultivation, not in the spiritual sense, but the physical one.
Jonathan: So you're a farmer.
Casey: Uh, farmer, hunter, various paths to take. A couple techniques that you could take from it would be like the, I've come up with suitably wushu sounding names for each of
them.
Space consuming vortex. So you, you turn yourself into like the, the eye of a storm or, what would be like the, uh, The event horizon of a, a black hole sucking everything towards you because the whole, the whole path is focused on grappling. So as soon as you get someone into, you know, grab range, the fight is over for them at that point is the strategy behind it. So it's that, and then, you know, Jaws the Beast where your hands basically [01:14:00] become, what is it? not
not Iron Maidens, not Crab Claws,
but,
Jonathan: claws. That's all I'm hearing. Crab claws.
Casey: I'm thinking, uh, what was it? Vise grips.
Matt: Okay. I see it.
Casey: Where it's impossible to escape a grab.
Matt: It's just
mechanical crab claws.
Jonathan: Come here! I've gotta twist this vice grip down on you. Okay, I gotcha.
Casey: Hey, can you do that with your mouth?
Jonathan: No. No.
Matt: Whoa. So
Jonathan: I can't. Just
Casey: That sounds unfortunate. All right, how about you Matt? What's your path?
Matt: I wrote down, I, a little bit of preface here. I'm a big D& D nerd and my favorite class is the warlock. So it's just a little dark and gritty. The Path of the Edgelord, often used to describe someone who deliberately walks the line between rebellion, boundary pushing, uh, [01:15:00] with an aura of mystique or a darker edge.
It can sometimes imply like a rejection of conventional norms, a challenge to the established order, kind of existential exploration of one's identity, purpose, blah, blah, blah. On this path, you may see life as a battleground. Basically, everything's a fight, where you fight both internal and external forces.
this path could involve intense emotional, spiritual discipline, resilience, and embracing one's unique power and will. the best defense is a good offense when it comes to this, and it's more weapons focused, and physical martial art as far as the battles would come, I think, or at least their battle attributes.
They, I think this would be a cool path if they just were a lot more weapons focused and how they could, in Cradle, they can have a lot of weapons stored within their cores or near their cores, and I can just like summon them. And kind of have them floating around me and just basically have zero defense, just a hundred percent offense all the time. That's my edgelord [01:16:00] path.
Casey: Careful not to cut yourself all that edge
Matt: Well, and that's what comes with the weakness. JT hit us with your path.
JT: Alright, I didn't make a lot of details for mine. I called it the Path of the Jester. Great at parties. And puns of all kind. focused on using humor to put people off guard and you can strike at them when they don't expect it. It's focused on illusion. And, convincing people. It's affecting their mind in such a way that, uh, you can attack them from there.
So yeah, it's, uh, some of the techniques that you can do are, um, you know, it's, I didn't actually come up with any,
Jonathan: So it's a derivation of the uh, the white fox path.
JT: you might say so.
Jonathan: I did. I,
JT: Conjure.
Yeah.
Jonathan: right now. Whoa,
JT: illusions. you can make jokes. Perhaps you can even read people's minds [01:17:00] a bit to see what
Jonathan: whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa. All right. All right. Calm down there.
What, what am I thinking right now?
Matt: It's more vicious mockery than anything else.
JT: What are you thinking
right now?
I think of it, uh, it's
Matt: Yes, definitely a bard. This is a college of lore
bard,
everybody.
JT: I'm gonna
Matt: Oh,
that's funny.
Casey: Someone should have come up with some techniques for their whole
past, Jeremy.
Jonathan: I'm sensing a little drama, a little
tension
JT: this, I'm gonna bring the sound pad back. Yeah,
Jonathan: is
Casey: If
Jonathan: I'm sensing one of you is
Casey: you bring yours out, I'm bringing mine out. Mine's bigger.
Jonathan: Okay. Not that kind of podcast guys. Okay. That's, that's different. That's a different podcast.
Matt: Spencer.
Casey: Moving on.
Spenser: JT sounds like, Wit from the
Jonathan: That's what I was thinking.
Spenser: would be, be on the path of Jester. And if you haven't read Stormlight, well,
you need to read it.
You're, you're wrong.
Yes. [01:18:00] Anyway, great character in that, in that series. little side quest there. My path would be the path of the tide weaver. Uh, so this path focuses, with, the manipulation of water and techniques would be centered around that. And the reason that is, is because I, I would use it more as a, a defense technique. Or something that is, adaptable that I can use as either both offensive or defensive, techniques and capabilities. water is, is versatile. I can use, like I said, I can use it to, to be defensive or offensive. And I think one of my techniques that I would. would use, would be, like a waveform shielding, I would call it, uh, a defensive barrier of water that can absorb or deflect incoming attacks. as an offensive one I would use the cascading spear, a long range attack that channels water into like, a spear like projectile and to [01:19:00] throw at my enemies.
Matt: So a water bender.
Spenser: A water, exactly, a waterbender, but in Cradle.
Jonathan: Sort of if Kaladin was an archer.
Spenser: yeah, yeah, exactly. Jonathan, what about you? What would be your path?
Jonathan: Yeah.
Casey: sort of talked about it. Rough drafts, but
Jonathan: Yes. My rough draft of a path. Thank you for the, uh, the uplifting words there, Casey. That was very nice. Thank you.
Yes, I've noticed. So Lev and I came up with this question in one of the earlier episodes, but we'll give him a quick refresher. So my path was the path of the ever expanding horizon, where I focus on growth and adaptability and vision.
And it's a highly strategic path. I see opportunities in any situation. these folks are also renowned for their resilience and innovation. I actually just asked, uh, Chachi Petit to, you know, fluff me [01:20:00] up, make me feel good about myself. So that's what it did. Um,
Matt: Honestly,
Jonathan: requires my cheat Jeep.
Okay. Get out of
here.
Matt: you should just have the path of GPT because that should be your path.
Jonathan: No, nope. But, I'll take that and I'll use my insightful gaze on you. And it's a foundation's technique that allows me to see the threads of potential scenarios like Matt making fun of me, or trying to take over my podcast, and spotting strengths and weaknesses in those areas for improvements in both people and environments.
YES!
It's
Matt: D& D.
Casey: Yep.
Slava: yeah, and to remind the audience of what mine was, mine is the path of the mind's eye. This is a unique cultivation journey focused on insight, heightened awareness, and a deep perceptual acuity. [01:21:00] Practitioners seek to understand the world around them on a level that goes beyond sight, honing their senses to perceive hidden layers.
Anticipate outcomes, like Matt being a better co host
and connect.
Spenser: fired. I
Slava: And can, and
Matt: quantity, Jonathan. You'll learn.
Slava: then to my, to my friends here and to some of the audience has been with us for a while and connect seemingly unrelated elements, because you guys know, sometimes I talk and. What I call circles or arcs to bring it back to the original point and get lost along the way sometimes. But my path possesses the [01:22:00] Forger's Flame. It's an inner spark that allows me to turn perception into creation.
Jonathan: Or, put in English terms, it allows him to get angry when things don't go his way. Please go back, please, please revisit the episode where Spencer led us through moderation in episode 99, and I talked about how Slava gets upset at everything, but we cut that out of the episodes to spare you.
Slava: did we though? I kept some of it in.
Jonathan: Oh, okay.
JT: What would be your Underlord revolution then?
Slava: Let me, let me bring up my notes here. because I wrote down some stuff. so JT, I think it would center
around like deeper truths of how I perceive the world and myself
each time I advance, there'll
be an insight in how I would unlock more potential powers by reconciling my analytical and perceptive
nature
with the more emotional intuitive sides of my personality. because this path of the way we wrote, the way we wrote, the way I wrote it is based on like my work, digital strategy, research. So I [01:23:00] wanted to keep everything kind of together with my real, real life. And this fake life that I'm doing on this podcast. Boring.
Matt: Sounds like a ranger to me.
JT: Matt will be yours.
Matt: My revelation, I got my notes here. Let's see. My Underlord revelation, is commitment. Basically, realizing that there's no more towing the line between rebel and normie, you know, like the typical edge lords kind of do. They're always towing that line being just in that gray area, and just dive straight off the edge and to be in either complete darkness or just going
back
to normie status, but it typically falls on that
embodiment of darkness.
Kind of like how
Mercy's kind of abilities
are very shadowy, tendril y kind of darkness, Basically, nobody understands me and this is just the way I like it
Jonathan: So,
Casey: character broods in a corner all day.
Matt: all day
JT: Probably
does. [01:24:00]
Matt: my hair covering one
eye.
Jonathan: yes, very emo of you. Also, very apt for Slava's kickback that you lack, uh, co host, traits. Because you need to, to get Underlord you have to address your commitment issues. So, that's good.
Casey: The grudging continues.
JT: I assume that the path of the Tideweaver has something to do with water
in the Revelation?
Jonathan: constantly dehydrated. And so his, his, his Underlord revelation is, I gotta drink more water.
Spenser: need more water
in
my life.
Matt: is life.
Spenser: Uh, yeah. So my Underlord, Revelation, would involve water. Um, sorry,
Matt: bottled or distilled
Jonathan: Mineral,
Spenser: that's a minute. Yeah. Yeah. I would pull metal, the mineral, the metals from the water and use those to know, um,
Matt: Okay, Magneto[01:25:00]
Spenser: right.
Casey: starts to drink heavy water,
Spenser: Uh, mine would, uh, involve actually, um, overcoming a fear of failure, and having to, um, To understand that failure in certain instances is okay. I'm not going to be able to be perfect at everything. And, I know, it's crazy. Uh, but I think that the path of the Tideweaver, the duality of water, That path would help me understand that it's okay to fail every once in a while, that I don't have to be perfect, that I can pick myself up and keep moving forward. As Jonathan likes to quote, The most important step a man can take is always the next one.
Jonathan: So basically your revelation is that you don't get to control all things. And so you just have to let water wash over you.
Matt: be like water.
Casey: go with the flow,
man,
Spenser: water [01:26:00] off a duck's back.
Matt: very whoosh. Ah
Jonathan: Yes. Water off of it. And his, his spirit animal is a duck. He doesn't get a dross. He gets a duck.
Spenser: I get it.
Jonathan: There's your Ranger, Matt, right here.
Casey: it has to be
a
Matt: That's rogue.
Casey: would be too aggressive.
Spenser: true. Geese are annoying.
Matt: That's why they're rogue. They
got the sneak attack going on
Spenser: they deserve to be shot.
Matt: I apologize on behalf of the SideQuest podcast to all our Canadian listeners. Your state bird is valued.
Jonathan: Casey, what's your, what's yours?
Casey: I'd say, you know, going with the, the theme of the abyssal maw being, you know, consumption, the food that the overlord revelation draws upon, what the individual's. hunger, what they truly hunger for, not just, you know, food or drink, what drives them, what pulls at them, what they're doing all this for, what they [01:27:00] really at their gut their gut feeling want out of life.
Jonathan: So your revelation and the thing stopping you is a tummy ache?
Casey: no, no, it's, it's more like. Yeah,
Jonathan: Gut
Casey: there's a
Matt: I'm one,
Casey: hole in my stomach that I can't fill with food.
Matt: gas station sushi away from a life ending alteration.
Casey: No, no, the gas station
sushi
doesn't cause that. Actually, that. causes, that introduces impurities into the body. That needs to be purged out.
Matt: Oh, that's funny.
Casey: man, I don't make the rules. I just eat them.
JT: I was about to come up I don't know if the
Matt: did. Make the rules.
As
JT: I came up with a segue, I don't know if It might be going a little too far.
Slava: Now do it.
Spenser: say
it.
Casey: I've always worried when you say stuff like that.
Matt: as it includes the
soundboard.
JT: to somebody with a hole in their stomach Jonathan![01:28:00]
Slava: Oh,
Casey: ha!
Jonathan: man.
Casey: ha
Matt: better make it in.
Jonathan: good. That's
Matt: Oh man.
Jonathan: Well, it lines
up.
Matt: your path too, JT. Very befitting your path
Casey: Vicious
Matt: my goodness.
Jonathan: 2d4, 2d6 damage.
Casey: yeah
take 2d6 mental
damage.
Matt: Yeah.
JT: Never
Jonathan: So, so it, that actually lines up with the, the Underlord revelation, or challenge that needs to, take place for the, um, ever expanding horizon, which is acknowledging my limitations and, and insecurities without letting them shake my foundation. By, only by fully embracing my current self and potential can I leap beyond the current horizon.
So thank you JT for, you know, embarrass me in front of the internet. very good. Thank you.
Casey: He's very
good at
that.
JT: Which leads into mine, which is finding a joke that will make even your greatest enemy laugh.[01:29:00]
Jonathan: are
we,
Are
we, Are
we Nemesai? Is
it?
JT: after that joke, probably up to you.
Jonathan: Perfect. So
Slava: Alright, well,
Casey: so
JT: Uh, what about on to the weaknesses?
Casey: Jinx, you owe
me a
JT: Um, the weakness of mine, uh, tough crowds, un unfunny people are the bane of my existence, both in, in my path and in real life.
Matt: You would be the bane of my existence as a path, JT. Because your, uh, your abilities are my weakness, which is harsh words. I take everything to the soul, basically. And I wrote, I wrote this and I thought it was kind of funny. And if people know who Black Veil Brides is, they'll get this. The most self destructive sacred art, uh, has very little regard for self preservation in combat, always goes all out, balls to the walls, easily shaken by sharp words [01:30:00] and even sharper knives and pens.
Casey: so basically if one of your guys goes off into as long like, you know, edge filled rant, you know, guy all he has to say is, cringe,
Matt: Yep. And then he loses his mind.
Spenser: So so basically the villain would just have to start monologuing harsh words and then you would
be
done for.
Matt: it depends on the monologue. If it's targeted towards me, yes, it'd be game over. But if it's just a monologue, it's just a monologue.
Jonathan: you're going to sit there and listen to it.
Matt: Yes.
Jonathan: Not very edgelord of you.
Matt: Because, no, because basically a monologue that doesn't
attack. with words, it's basically a, well, it's basically just the big, bad, evil guy brooding, which is what I do for a living. So I will just brood with him and brood harder.
Jonathan: It sounds kind of sexual in nature and we don't do that on this podcast.
Casey: Yeah.
Matt: of tension
Spenser: For how many [01:31:00] times we've said we don't do that on this podcast, we've done that a lot of times
on this podcast.
Slavo, what would be the weakness on your path?
Slava: it would be sensory overload. Cause since I'm taking everything in all at once and processing it, probably At certain points in the path, I would hit walls where I couldn't process everything all at once and be confused or start hallucinating and losing my mind slowly.
Matt: Hallucinating,
okay.
Jonathan: So regular Tuesday afternoon.
Slava: Yep.
Matt: Sounds about right.
Casey: yeah.
Slava: And Jonathan, you tell us your weakness.
Jonathan: It will come to no surprise for those who know me well, my path is prone to overthinking and, uh, can lead to mental fatigue crisis in high stakes situations or, or and. Uh, additionally, and this is my actually favorite weakness of mine. My allies [01:32:00] rely too much on me. And, uh, well, if I'm
taken out of the fight,
Matt: a humble pie?
Jonathan: I've actually
brought two of those for myself because I'm the most humble.
Uh, so if I'm removed from the equation, they usually, you know, they're too dependent on me and they crumble.
Casey: the equivalent of Moses in the Bible writing, and I was the most humble man on earth.
Jonathan: I wrote that actually. call me Moses.
Matt: Just call me Moses.
Slava: Moishe over
here.
Jonathan: Moisha.
Matt: Oh my gosh.
Marker
---
Casey: . I think I'm the last person to state weakness here. I don't think I ever actually covered mine.
Basically because of how their cultivation works, they're just extremely slow.
They, they put themselves down at a point and turn that into a defensible position, or, you know, using their techniques, they draw people into, you know, Grappling range, but they are terrible at chasing things or escaping [01:33:00] so
Matt: a dwarf.
Casey: they've set themselves down They're basically stuck there for the fight
Matt: Quote Gimli. Very dangerous over short distances.
Casey: exactly
Matt: dwarves are not natural sprinters.
Casey: No, we are natural
Matt: Or we are natural sprinters
Casey: short distances most dangerous.
Matt: That's funny.
Jonathan: That
covers it. Matt, you want to do the next section?
Matt: Alright, so now that we've done with the weaknesses and had that fun little, little conversation, Um, how would you guys describe the book basically or the series as, uh, as a whole to the audience here?
Slava: I
would say it's a hero's journey full of antiheroes
Casey: took the words out of his mouth
Matt: Hot dog! Man, I tell you what, emotional fast paced struggle growth. Mic drop.
Jonathan: Oh,
Casey: the audience, they basically just copped each other's notes looking at each other's textbooks here
Jonathan: Oh, [01:34:00]
great.
JT: you call it?
Matt: that's funny.
Casey: man, I would have put basically it's Dragon Ball not Dragon Ball Z The original series,
Matt: Dragon Ball.
Okay.
Casey: season commenced into one book.
Jonathan: doesn't have a tail though.
Casey: Eh, he doesn't need a tale. He burned
it off.
Matt: Goku loses it in the in that series anyway.
Casey: How many times does he lose it?
JT: Several.
Casey: I'm not counting.
JT: Spencer, what about you?
Spenser: I would say book is a hero's journey, uh, sorry,
JT: Do you want me to
Slava: That's emotional and fast paced
Matt: I'm sorry, time.
Spenser: that's it, that's all, that's all, I got. that's
all I got guys. Just a hero's, hero's journey. Yeah. Yes. A journey into the West.
Um, journey to his path. Oh my gosh. [01:35:00] I'm struggling guys.
JT: Do
you want me to
it to Jonathan instead? Give
Spenser: Maybe. No, um, A hero's path to figuring out how to become a better version of himself.
Casey: So here is Journey.
Spenser: Yes, a hero's journey.
Jonathan: Into the
West.
Matt: Into
the west
Spenser: Sorry guys, that's all I got.
JT: Jonathan?
Spenser: I'm just, I'm just here to make, make Matt laugh.
Jonathan: Uh,
well,
Casey: breathing over Mission accomplished. if I can't use my previous description that I corrected Matt on earlier and how I describe it to people, which is Dragon Ball Z. In literature form, not space.
Matt: You said space,
Jonathan: I did not say
space.
Matt: dirty liar.
Jonathan: I'm not dirty. I took a shower.
Slava: clean [01:36:00] liar So apparently you're still
Spenser: a liar.
Matt: the
liar! He didn't defend the liar I don't have to, I'm telling the truth. Believe me. Um, we we've derailed here. I would describe this book, as a, as a, look at one's self,
Jonathan: gratitude.
Casey: How about you, Jeremy?
JT: I described it as C'mon Linden, In N Out, 20 Minute Adventure. I, I liked
it, uh, and actually I think that, no maybe not, I was gonna like go right into the how do you rate the book, but we put that later.
Jonathan: You could go into it. That's fine.
JT: Cool. Okay, so I think that, uh, the Nightwheel Valley section is fantastic, and the one nitpick I have of it is I felt that it was a little too short. Uh, maybe that's because I'm used to these massive 3, 000 chapter, uh, series, I would have liked to have seen Nightwill Valley sort of, expounded on, more details put [01:37:00] into the setting, because essentially all we got was, oh, it's dark here, and then the two forces are fighting, there's a vault somewhere, whereas, you could have a really good, miniature world that has its own rules and perhaps even more interesting stuff in it where they go around and they they're collecting and they're looking for the potential opportunities while also competing with everybody else
Jonathan: So you wanna read Ghostwater a second time? laughter
JT: except instead of it being just a couple of people that are in there it's you know much larger forces and there's You know, a background of conflicts going on between two sides.
Jonathan: We replace the water with darkness. Brilliant. Will. Brilliant.
JT: Darkwater.
Matt: Grey water.
Jonathan: Oh,
gross.
Casey: Ghost Dark.
Jonathan: right, boys, what's the, what's the rating? World characters plot one to five. under Lord, we'll do quick round. Robin
Spenser: [01:38:00] Characters, uh, I'll give a five. Plot, I'll give, a four. world, I'll give a five.
Casey: that's about what I would give as well. Five for the world, five for the characters, four for the plot.
Matt: I would go five for the world, just cause we did change scenery quite a bit in this book specifically. Characters, I would also put, well, no, characters I'd put out of four, even though the character part was my favorite part. With Orthos. Um, and then plot, I think is five. I think they, they moved this along to the next stage of this series very, very well and very, very succinctly.
JT: I put it at, 4 for the world, 5 for the characters, 5 for the plot.
Like I said, I wanted more.
Jonathan: with jt. I think that the world actually was a little, thin this time around. Four for the world. Five for the characters, five for the plot.
Slava: I'll keep my ratings of five all around from the previous episode I enjoyed the world The plot [01:39:00] was one of my favorite plots out of all the books so far and the characters Well, I just liked the characters from starting from book one. So five all around,
Jonathan: You hated Lyndon at the start.
Slava: I changed
Casey: Get called out.
Jonathan: Casey, if you know nothing about me, just remember the Warbreaker episode.
Casey: Yeah, I remember
that one pretty
vividly.
Jonathan: here to keep us on the straight and narrow.
Casey: I was there.
Jonathan: of lies.
Matt: Lies. You live upon a throne of lies.
Jonathan: It's true.
Matt: You smell like beef and cheese.
Jonathan: Also true.
Casey: I didn't need to know that last part.
Matt: That's from Elf. I just followed up the quote that you just said. You said on a throne of lies. You smell like beef and He, he, he, missed it. He missed
Jonathan: it,
Matt: guess so. He's not Drax.
Jonathan: apparently. JT, you dropped a question in this, uh, next section about mythology, thinking, and writing. did you want to give us a quick, uh, a quick rundown of that?
JT: Sure. So. In. [01:40:00] The original genre, the Ciencia genre, they, I think I mentioned this earlier, don't have a huge amount of detail around the physics and the way that the world works. People will move insane distances, hundreds of kilometers within a few seconds. quite easily, they never think, though, to go to the sun or the moon, and in fact, they sort of think of these as magical celestial objects rather than real physical things that exist.
Space itself isn't real. It's more of a, a metaphysical barrier that you're fighting against. it's a very ancient style of writing, an ancient style of thinking of the world. and that's why I mentioned it and said, it's more of a mythological perspective. Uh, and they suffused that throughout the entirety of their texts.
So yeah, there's, you're thinking flat earth, you're thinking, you're relying on a lot of mystery in explanation. [01:41:00] And that's, uh, the love hate I had for the, I think the aura that we used in this book, uh, when you go to Underlord. You have to be surrounded by, the aura that you need for your path.
Wasn't that correct?
Jonathan: Yeah, you need, you need, well, you need a high density of aura to do it quickly, but you also the, what is it? The, um, the sacred objects, need to be in your, in line with your path, which is why Linden is like, well, I could wander around looking for stuff that will work for me, or I will just use the things that I've brought.
JT: I felt that that was nice in the sense that it feels kind of odd and totally arbitrary, which is very Cultivation Novel. I felt it wasn't particularly well fleshed out. It was the, one of the weaknesses I saw in this. It didn't seem to have a through line. Why, why do you need treasures? Why do they disappear?
Jonathan: understanding of it is. It's like, you're slurping in the power to get [01:42:00] that upgrade. That's, that's my understanding.
Matt: You're consuming experience points.
Jonathan: yes, yes. Experience experience once
oh boy. because I like, I like the hot takes. It's, it's fun to do those. What kind of armchair authorship do you guys have about this book? Since we're kind of talking about it with, JT's comment about, not enough of a through line or explanation of, well, why do the, artifacts need to be absorbed or do you need them to be in your path?
Matt: I would have liked a little bit more, and this is something I gripe on for the whole series, is they take, The first book and the whole sequence with, Serial and all that stuff. And then you just see her in these tiny little snippets and then they introduce the Abaddon and these tiny little snippets and it's just, it's not enough to intrigue me.
So every time he cuts to that now at this point in the series, I'm just kinda like, alright, I tune out a little bit, I just kinda forget about it. it just doesn't interest me. There's not enough interest for me in there. So I really wish he would flesh out that a little bit more
earlier [01:43:00] on in the series. So that way it would be a little bit more meaningful later on down the road.
JT: I
get your point, because I ended up in the same sections going, It's like, cool, I am interested in Surreal,
But, I'm in a tense moment with Linden right
now.
Matt: Right.
JT: want to deviate for a moment. I want to see what's happening with him.
Matt: And it's interesting how he writes it too. It's like information report. Like he's basically talking to a computer, which I think that's a cool way to write these sequences in certain points, but it's still just, I just, it just doesn't intrigue me. That's my, honestly, my heaviest gripe with the entire series as a whole
is
the
That facet.
JT: Interesting.
Spenser: I think
mine is a little bit similar, but in more aspects of the book. So
I think Jonathan, you kind of said this earlier, too, about you wanted to see maybe more of the Nightwheel
Valley, or maybe I don't remember who said that. But,
there's a lot of spots where I feel
like Will should have slowed the writing down just a little bit to [01:44:00] spend a little bit more time in certain areas or with certain characters just to see, see them grow as a character more or, um, yeah, just spend, spend a little bit more time in, in certain areas. And I think for me, it moves almost a little too quickly. and I feel like I don't get enough, of them learning how to use their abilities and their powers or, Even spending time with each other and growing in relationship. that would be, that would be my, my gripe.
Casey: Go along with the fact that Yeren's blood shadow goes from You know, being this thing that we don't know about for the first couple of books to being, a threat to her. And now we finally have, you know, her developing it alongside of her blade path, but it goes so fast. It is a single book and it basically goes from, okay, here's this blood shadow that you've just, you know, wrested some control over. Okay, now it's helping you. Now you're fully in sync with it. And I feel like there should have been a little more either focus on that [01:45:00] during. You know, moments with her. Because we did have some of that in the book itself. And I thought that was interesting where she was facing down the demon that's basically
stuck
in her. But it felt too fast. I'm not sure if, because I haven't read the rest of it, if we're going to see more of that in the future of her getting more control.
Slava: I think mine would be Yeren's near death experience. The more I thought about it, I think it would have been better if there was a few more pages dedicated to it, fleshing out the tension there and maybe a little bit more. Of the tension I mentioned that she's now feeling towards Lyndon. I Think that would have. Added a lot more to the story for me, but I get it. It's fast paced book. You want to introduce a problem. You want to get over it quickly and move on to the next thing. And I liked that section of the book a lot.
Jonathan: Well, that covers mine then, because I've said that a few times already. and this just goes to two things. I think it's, I think it's Will's writing style. And I also think [01:46:00] it's something that he's getting better at because if, I don't know if any of you guys have read the newest series he's working on called The Last Horizon.
He, Has stronger, scenes and moments for his characters and making them go through emotional arcs instead of just rushing through it. And I think it's just the development and growth of him as an author. if I was to choose like 80, 20, 20 percent the style that he used for specifically cradle and trying to stay true to the genre, but also like growing into it.
And 80 percent like, learning how to give his characters moments of emotional growth. not to go back to Sanderson all the time, but like, if you've read Elantris, you know, exactly like, Oh, this is clearly this person's first published novel, not bad. I've never published a book like props to you, but then you read something later, like a decade later and you're like, Oh, he's gotten like, he's gotten heaps better and that only comes through doing reps by writing.
Well, let's wind [01:47:00] this episode down here, guys. I really appreciate having all of you on and, uh, discussing Underlord and Cradle and you know, we're only halfway through the series. So we've got six more times where you boys are going to come back on and, uh, harass me.
Spenser: Always a pleasure.
Matt: That's my
favorite part of the podcast is harassing Jonathan.
Casey: The harassment will continue until morale improves.
Jonathan: Intel morale improves.
Matt: It's very militaristic.
I
Jonathan: Great. This is, this is great. Um, one last question before we go on the outro. Did you guys read the bloopers? Do you have a favorite blooper?
Matt: don't remember the bloopers.
JT: know Casey did.
Casey: yeah, I read the bloopers, but, I forget at the moment. I remember the blooper from the last one where she, like, tries to do the trick off The
tree and then snaps her neck.
oh, right, there was the one where, you know, Linden is already jumping off the edge into the, uh, the darkness before he can be warned about the, uh, the [01:48:00] death aura. That's my favorite blooper.
Slava: I didn't really care for the bloopers in this book too much, but the one that kind of made me chuckle was, I've been thinking about splitting my core again, Lyndon said. Ethan raised his eyebrows. You don't think you have enough on your plate as it is? It's strange. Every day, I don't split my core. I hear these screams, as though thousands of people far away are shrieking in frustration at once. Well, have you tried splitting your core? I have, watch. He sat down and began cycling, according to the Heart of Twin Stars technique. Just as his pure core began to stretch apart, there came a chorus of distant screams. Are all these same voices you've heard before? Ethan asked. No, I think that's an entirely different group of people.
You're right. Ethan said. That is strange. again, it's not very funny,
but I like like the dark aspect of it. of Linden having voices screaming in his head.
JT: Oh, wait. That's a joke from the community. Like, as he was writing these, there was, like, two groups of people [01:49:00]
yelling at the author, saying, You should have Linden split his core again! And the other group of, No, you shouldn't!
Slava: that's even better.
Casey: so it's basically fourth wall breaking
where
Lyndon's hearing the author commentary.
Slava: Excellent. Well, I'm glad I chose as my favorite because that makes it even better.
Matt: That's pretty good.
Slava: Well, I think that's it guys.
Casey: All right, it's
Slava: as always. Wonderful.
Casey: great to be here. Always great to talk with y'all.
Matt: Always a good time.
Spenser: Yeah, always a pleasure to be on the SideQuest podcast, of course.
Jonathan: podcast. Yeah. You're, you guys are always welcome back to Matt and Slava's podcast.
Casey: Thanks for inviting
us. Matt, I think you're a little behind on the books that we've read.
Matt: Um, Jonathan, um, I think we're going to have to cut ties. I don't think this is a good fit.
Jonathan: Wow.
Slava: Sorry. Did you have to hear it like this?
Jonathan: Wow.
JT: corporate speak.
Matt: All over a zoom meeting too. That's just
Slava: It's Oh, how 2020 appropriate. Yeah, this is a good time. Good time.[01:50:00]
just, uh, before we leave, I just want to bring in HR. So, you know, they can give the rundown to Jonathan and his off boarding.
JT: they gonna
fire
Matt: boarding.
JT: earlier? I
Matt: Formal now.
Casey: Oh, man.
Matt: Funny, funny, funny.
Jonathan: Matt, go ahead and do the outro then. Just take it. Just take it.
Matt: \ Before you vanish back to reality, drop us a quick review on your favorite platform. It keeps our quest alive and really helps, you know, other book adventurers find their way here. At Book Adve Ah, fuck me.
Ahem.
Jonathan: not, especially when you're firing me for my own podcast.
Matt: Before you vanish back to reality, drop us a quick review on your favorite platform. It keeps our quest alive and helps other book adventurers find their way here. And until next time, onward, the dragon advances.
Slava: And of course, make sure you take a moment and rate us on your favorite podcast platform, and share it with your book loving friends. We'll see you all next time on SideQuest.