Transfiguration

Dr. Gurtner talks about the accounts of the Transfiguration that are found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke's Gospels. Did you know that 'transfigured' means looked different or transformed? Dr. Gurtner helps us unpack what is happening to Jesus in this passage and what the gospel authors are trying to tell their readers.

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Host

Dan Gurtner

Professor of New Testament Studies

Host

Tyler Sanders

Director of Communications

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Courtney Robenolt

Digital Media Specialist

What is Conceptions and Misconceptions in Studying the Gospels?

Dr. Dan Gurtner takes on challenging passages and common misconceptions in the Gospels.

Tyler Sanders 0:03
Welcome to Conceptions and Misconceptions in the Gospels with Dr. Dan Gurtner. I'm your host, Tyler Sanders, and today we're reading the Transfiguration. So that puts us in Matthew 17, Mark 9, and Luke 9. Would you like to start us off, Dr. Gurtner?

Dan Gurtner 0:17
Sure, yeah. And looking at each of these passages, as we've seen in other passages, Matthew, Mark, and Luke all have them,and they all present them in similar enough ways that you can see it's pretty clearly the same thing. But they have them in their own wording. And I think one of the things that's unique about this passage that's puzzling is, and you and I chatted a little bit about this beforehand, is what on earth is happening to Jesus? Why all of the sudden is he like, radiant and glowing? And what are readers supposed to take from this? So I kinda like to start with, what do you think? I mean, there are so many other things we can go at about this that we've chatted about and so let me just kind of throw you to the wolves. So what do you think you get from this? What do you think the gospel authors are trying to say to the readers about what's happening with Jesus?

Tyler Sanders 1:31
Well, one of the things we've talked about a lot in previous episodes, is that a big question in the Gospels, maybe it's not the question, it's the answer to this question of who is Jesus? A lot of these things, the miracles we see, the parables, a lot of stuff is leaning into identifying Jesus as the Son of God, as the Messiah. There's all these different ways that they they do that. So that's definitely operating here. But this one is a little bit more...explicit is probably not quite the right word, but it's kind of out front. There's kind of this amazing, really amazing thing that happens where he's-looking at it Luke-his clothing is dazzling white. Mark describes it as like radiant, intense, so much that no one could bleach them to be that white. So he has a different appearance, he meets Elijah and Moses in all these accounts. And then we get the voice in the cloud that saying a very explicit identification of Jesus. In Luke, it says, "My Son, My Chosen One". And "Beloved Son" in Matthew and Mark. So it seems like some of the passages we've looked at, the people, the disciples, whoever it is, they see something amazing...and it's left to be like, this has to be the Son of God. But in this one it's like, Yeah, this is it. God says, "This is my Son." Which is a fascinating switch.

Dan Gurtner 3:11
It is, and you're really onto it. And that's really essential. We've been harping on this throughout, that the Gospels are always about Jesus. And we always want to move right to application. But let's stop and see what this is about. This is saying something about Jesus. Now you're onto something, that we're seeing things about Jesus that we've not seen before. And the question is, what are we supposed to do with that? We see that, looking at all three accounts, we see that this is several days after the previous events. Matthew and Mark say after six days. Luke says about eight days after these things. So Luke's giving us an approximation. And Peter, James and John, so these are the closest disciples, you see these throughout the Gospels. They go out to a mountain, and Luke says, "Went up the mountain to pray." And Luke often has prayer. Prayer is an important thing for Luke. So we see a distinctive emphasis. And then this change happens. And the English word 'transfigured' just means "he looked different." And that's really what the Greek means too. There was a change in his appearance. But again, what does it mean that Jesus look different? So what are we as readers supposed to take from that? And what are we as readers supposed to take, that all of a sudden, Moses and Elijah-I thought those guys were dead? So are we supposed to think that they've somehow come back from the dead? What's going on here? So let me try to unpack, instead of just sort of throwing you to the wolves here, what's going on. And Luke sort of helps us to see, and there are several different interpretations of this, and I think the best one is to see that the answer key to this is not just that this is the voice from heaven, saying, "This is my son, my chosen one," we've seen that before, and that's from the baptism. But this is slightly different, because the voice from heaven, and we don't need an announcer to say who this voice from Heaven is. We know that this is God. But we get something unique that we haven't gotten elsewhere; what this voice is saying, and who this voice is speaking to. What is the voice saying and who is He speaking to. In the baptism, sometimes He says, "You are My beloved Son". Here it's, "This is my beloved son." So He's not talking to Jesus, who's He talking to?

Tyler Sanders 6:20
Yeah, He's gotta be talking to Peter and John and James.

Dan Gurtner 6:23
Yeah, and what's He telling them?

Tyler Sanders 6:25
Well, He's not only identifying Jesus, but He's also saying to listen to him.

Dan Gurtner 6:30
Yes! Listen to him. Yes. And listen to him in the context of this radiance. What's happening here is Jesus is being displayed as the Son of Man. We've seen throughout that he is the Son of Man, and that he says later in the gospels, that the Son of Man will come in all of his glory with His angels, and all those sorts of things. And this, with His radiance, is what he's going to look like. So this is a glimpse, a foretaste of what Jesus is going to look like. So these three disciples are given a snapshot of Jesus and what he's going to look like in his heavenly glory. And by the way, here is what Elijah and Moses look like, and Luke tells us, why are they here? They appeared in glory. What that means is, whatever the appearance of dead believers looks like, prior to receiving resurrection bodies, that's what they were. He doesn't tell us what that looks like. He doesn't tell us, you know, what color their hair is, or anything like that. They appear in their heavenly existence, whatever that is. That's them. Right there. Somehow, Peter, James and John recognize them. And so this is them in their heavenly embodiment, or their heavenly experience, whatever that is at that moment. Appearing with Jesus, Jesus is clearly distinct. And Matthew and Mark say that they're talking with Jesus. And Luke is the only one who tells us what they're talking about. And it's really, really helpful. Their speaking about His departure. And this is key. And the word there is 'departure', his "exodus", his departure. And what they're talking about, which is about to accomplish at Jerusalem, they're talking about and the disciples have no idea. Even though Jesus talks about the Son of Man is going to suffer many things at the hands of sinners. He's going to be crucified, he's gonna be handed over, he's gonna be abused, he's gonna be raised again after three days. And that's what Moses and Elijah are talking about, with Jesus on this mountain. And the disciples are just like, what's going on here? But Luke tells us that's what they are discussing. Now, there's discussion about why Moses and why Elijah? What are they doing here?

Tyler Sanders 9:52
Yeah, that is fascinating.

Dan Gurtner 9:54
Some people think, well, Moses represents the law. Whenever you refer to Moses, you refer to the law. And sometimes that's true. And then Elijah, well he must represent the prophets.

Tyler Sanders 10:07
Like the prophets, yes.

Dan Gurtner 10:09
Well, Elijah doesn't usually represent the prophets- and some people think that these two represent somebody who's expected to come at the end of days. Well, Moses was associated with the law, Elijah typically wasn't associated with just the prophets. Moses was sort of a representative of the law, but Elijah was thought to come at the end of days. Moses wasn't necessarily thought to come at the end of days. So neither one of those paradigms really works. What they do have in common, is both of them met with God at the top of a mountain.

Tyler Sanders 10:49
Oh, yeah.

Dan Gurtner 10:50
And that's what's going on here. That's what's going on here.

Tyler Sanders 10:55
I thought...I considered that for Moses, because that is kind of a big moment, when he sees God's glory passing. He kind of glimpses it or whatever it is, and it effects him. I hadn't thought about that for Elijah, though. That's true.

Dan Gurtner 11:09
Yeah. So Elijah meets God at Mount Horeb. So Moses and Elijah, they're meeting with him, they're talking, and then "Peter and those were are with him were heavy with sleep. When they become fully awake, they see His glory." And again, that's another key, and the two men who are with him. So they're seeing Jesus in the fullness of His glory. This is sort of a foretaste of what when Jesus says, you'll see the Son of Man coming in his glory with a mighty angel. That's what it's going to look like. "And as the men were parting," Moses and Elijah are on their way, I'm looking at Luke's account, "Peter says to Jesus, 'Master, it's good that we are here. Let us make three tents. One for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.'" And then Mark says, "For he did not know what to say, for he was terrified." And Luke simply comes right out and says-Mark says, "he didn't know what to say"-Luke says, Peter actually didn't even know what he was saying.

Tyler Sanders 11:25
It just came out.

Dan Gurtner 12:35
It just came out. Good old ready, fire aim, Peter. And what's happening here is actually-two passages from the Old Testament come to mind. And one is from the book of Hosea. Hosea 12:9. And the other one is from the book of Zechariah. Hosea 12:9, "I am the Lord your God, from the land of Egypt. I will again make you dwell in tents, as in the days of the appointed feast." And there's another one in Zechariah 14:16-20. And so some people think that what Peter's doing here is he's anticipating that at the end of days, that the Feast of Tabernacles was going to be instituted. And that what was happening is that Moses and Elijah were here, suddenly appeared, because the Feast of Tabernacles that was talked about in these passages, was actually coming to be fulfilled. The Feast of Tabernacles, or the Feast of Booths, and Peter was getting ready, 'Hey, it looks like this Feast of Booths was being set up, let me get the Booths set up for you guys.'

Tyler Sanders 14:11
Right. Right.

Dan Gurtner 14:13
And nobody really answers Peter. And poor Peter.

Tyler Sanders 14:23
He does try.

Dan Gurtner 11:09
He does. And verse 34 in Luke's account, "As he was saying these things, the cloud came and overshadowed them. And they were afraid as they entered the cloud." And so this is the same thing. This is like a theophany in the Old Testament, when God speaks from Mount Sinai to Moses. Remember when the Israelites are at the foot of Mount Sinai, and Moses is on Mount Sinai and the Israelites are terrified because they know Moses is up there, and they just see this cloud envelop the mountain. And everybody's absolutely petrified.

Dan Gurtner 15:20
And what's ironic here is that the cloud is both a means of revelation, this is where God discloses something about Himself, and it's also some means of obscuring. There's something that obscures vision. So the cloud and the voice are both at Sinai with Moses, this is Exodus 19 as well as Deuteronomy 5. And again, similar kind of words are found at the Baptism texts in all three synoptics, but the key here is again, "this is my son". And Matthew says, "with whom I am well pleased", and that's right from the baptism text. Mark says, "My Beloved", Luke says, "My chosen". And that lines it up directly with Isaiah 42:1; My Chosen, this is the suffering servant. And here is all the bells and whistles, and why is God coming here just to say, listen to him? Because you're seeing him in his glory, and this is the glory of the Son of Man. But things are not going to look very glorious, pretty soon. Because in Luke's gospel, beginning in chapter 9 verse 51, it's going to start talking about suffering, and it's going to start talking about death. Because before the glory of the resurrection, there is the suffering of the Passion narrative. So it's going to start looking dark. The upshot is simply this, listen to him very, very carefully, because he's going to start talking about suffering and death. And you see the glory now. And that glory is where things are going to end on the other side. But that glory on the other side, comes through the path of suffering, death, and crucifixion, and then resurrection. Don't forget that, as you see this glory right now, and this radiance that's making you fall down on your faces, and rightly so, and you see Jesus in all of his radiant glory, and that is the right way to respond to Jesus. You're seeing him clothed and the majesty of His glory the way he really is. But that's not the way it's going to look for the coming weeks leading up to the suffering, death and resurrection. And of course, they still don't get it. But you and I, as readers are shown this shining, glorious, glowing light coming out of the pages to say, it's going to look ugly for the next few pages, but there's glory on the other side, and this is what it looks like.

Tyler Sanders 18:39
Yeah. It's so fascinating. And it's such a powerful bit of detail that Luke gives us just a few verses earlier with that foreshadow, I think, telling us this is what Moses and Elijah are talking about, that this process is beginning.

Dan Gurtner 18:56
Yes.

Tyler Sanders 18:57
They're just hitting it. They don't tell you what it is necessarily. But if you've read through it before, you know what's coming, or if you've read Matthew, Mark, if you just go through the three in order, by the time you got to this section in Luke, you'd know what the departure even means your first time going through it.

Dan Gurtner 19:14
Sure, sure. And Matthew and Mark give us a little bit of a hint about what this is, more subtle. Luke is very explicit. Luke sort of is a bit of an answer key to this. But Matthew and Mark both say that they are at the very end, in verse 9 for both accounts, that they are not to say anything about this until Jesus, the Son of Man, has risen from the dead. That's their way of saying that this is a vision of the glorious Son of Man, of what things are going to look like of ultimate vindication and glory. That's where this whole thing is going to end. So they don't give us all the answers that Luke does, but they give us a hint. Of the way it's gonna go in that little temporal marker at the end.

Tyler Sanders 20:17
Yeah, that's another interesting part. That it does say, particularly in Matthew and Mark, that they're instructed to be silent. But in Luke, it's more just like the voice speaks, and then they see Jesus is alone after that. And I think that's in all three accounts, it seems kind of sudden that it ends. But in Luke, it says in 36, "They kept silent and told no one what they had seen." That is kind of interesting that Matthew and Mark get a little bit more explicit with Jesus telling them don't say it.

Dan Gurtner 20:55
Yeah. And also it is telling in Matthew and Mark that Jesus frequently predicts his resurrection from the dead. And now he's actually giving them instructions, he's making plans for his disciples about what to do. It's such a certain thing that they can talk about this. 'When can we talk about this, how about Tuesday? Well, how about Sunday afternoon? You can talk about this Sunday afternoon. What's so special about Sunday afternoon? Well, I'm gonna die on Friday, Sunday morning I'll raise again and that's when you can talk about it.' So he's using it as a temporal marker for when they can talk about it.

Tyler Sanders 21:36
Yeah. Because there is a point they're supposed to talk about it.

Dan Gurtner 21:40
Yes, yeah.

Tyler Sanders 21:42
Now, if we keep going in Matthew and Mark, that's kind of the end of the narrative in a sense, but there is a follow up kind of in Matthew and Mark, where they talk a little bit more about Elijah. And that was a question I had because in Matthew, to go a little bit further, there's this identification between John the Baptist and Elijah. And so I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about that, because I thought that was fascinating that they've just seen Elijah and it seems like as they're coming down and they're talking about it, there's this connection to-I guess my question is, what did they really see back there on the mountain? Did they really see Elijah? And this kind of connection between John the Baptist and Elijah, that Jesus mentions in Matthew, is that like metaphorical or is that representative in some kind of way? What exactly is happening there?

Dan Gurtner 22:37
Let's see. So you're talking about Matthew 17.

Tyler Sanders 22:45
Yeah, in verse 10. "The disciples asked Him, 'Then why do the scribe say the first Elijah must come?' And he answered, 'Elijah does come and he will restore all things. But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also, the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.'" Which I thought, that's kind of interesting thing too, you get that suffering particularly right there. And then in verse 13, "Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist."

Dan Gurtner 23:17
Right, so your question is, how could Elijah have appeared on the mountain when Elijah was John the Baptist?

Tyler Sanders 23:24
Yeah, what's happening there? Or how are those two things related?

Dan Gurtner 23:28
I don't think...yeah, that's a great question. I don't think that John the Baptist was Elijah. I think John the Baptist was coming in the spirit and power of Elijah. In other words, I don't think...he's not intended to be the person of Elijah himself.

Tyler Sanders 23:48
Yeah. He's filling a role or something like that.

Dan Gurtner 23:51
He's filling a role that when the Old Testament talks about, 'You will see Elijah come back.' It's not saying the same Elijah, it's saying someone is going to come in a role of Elijah. And that's going to be a sign to you that the end of days is coming, and that the Messiah is coming. And John the Baptist filled that role.

Tyler Sanders 24:14
Yeah, okay. That makes sense to me, because that kind of makes it a little bit more concrete. I just noticed that as kind of a fascinating thing, they're all up there and they see Elijah and Moses. And as they're coming down, they're kind of asking like, what just happened? Like, is that supposed to be Elijah coming back? Did we just see that or something? And I think Jesus is kind of saying, kind of like you just said, John the Baptist was kind of filling that functional Elijah role, and that's already happened.

Dan Gurtner 24:47
Well, yeah. Oh, that's a great question. I think now I understand what you're asking. In verse nine at Matthew chapter 17, "And as they were coming down the mountain Jesus commanded them, 'Tell no one the vision until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.'" And I think their question in verse 10, "The disciples asked Him, 'Then why do the scribes say that Elijah must come?'" I don't think their question pertains to, 'Hey, didn't we just see Elijah on the mountain?' I think their question pertains to Jesus saying that the Son of Man needs to be raised from the dead, and they're identifying that with a messianic task.

Tyler Sanders 25:35
I see.

Dan Gurtner 25:36
And they're understanding, 'Hey, if you're doing something that's messianic, isn't Elijah supposed to come first?' Because the scribes are saying that Elijah's supposed to come first. And Jesus is saying, 'Well, the scribes are right. Elijah was supposed to come first. And Elijah did come first. The problem is people missed it. And it was John the Baptist.' Does that put together what you were asking?

Tyler Sanders 26:02
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that makes sense. It's interesting, these three passages, they do line up so closely. I mean, just like you said, kind of at the beginning, it's very obvious that it's the same thing. But two of the things that I kind of noticed that were slightly different that I thought maybe we could talk about; one we already hit when we saw the difference in God's voice. Basically when He says, 'Chosen One' or 'Beloved Son', "this is my beloved son with whom I'm well pleased." So that we kind of hit, we talked a little bit about it especially in Luke, how that fits in the Luke narrative. But the other thing that was a little different that I thought was interesting was, there's fear in all of these, but it kind of happens at different spots. So in Matthew it seems like it's in response to the voice. In verse six, "When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified." In Mark, it's when...it may just be about...does it say specifically about just Peter or is it for all the disciples? It's when he offers to build the tents.

Dan Gurtner 26:03
Yeah, in verse six.

Tyler Sanders 26:57
"They were terrified." Okay, yeah. So, it is all of them. And then in Luke it's-

Dan Gurtner 27:20
Well, it's all of them in response to seeing, it seems it was in response to what they had seen.

Tyler Sanders 27:27
Right, right. And then in Luke, it's close to Matthew's, but it's like when they enter the cloud. They were afraid as they entered the cloud. So, we talked a little bit about something similar when we were looking at the Calming of the Storm, that it probably took place over quite a long period of time, so like, how many things did Jesus say? He probably said all these things at different periods, you know-

Dan Gurtner 27:54
And quite a bit more.

Tyler Sanders 27:55
Yeah. And it would totally make sense for people to be afraid throughout this whole process. But I just thought that was fascinating. I wonder if you could speak into that at all about why is this deep detail being put in, in different sections. Is that to kind of bring out a specific point in each narrative?

Dan Gurtner 28:10
It is common in the Bible, in theophanies, meaning when God appears, whether it is the voice of God, whether it is the cloud in the Old Testament, or whether it is Jesus doing something in a manner that displays that He is God, for people to respond rightly in fear. Fear is an appropriate response to the holiness of God. For believers, for Christians too. What I mean by that is even-and I might be getting somewhat off track so bring me back in when I finish this-I'm also thinking of like the story of Ananias and Sapphira in the book of Acts. Remember, that whole story, everybody's giving money, and everybody shares everything in common, and everybody was willingly giving their money and putting it at the apostles feet and Peter says that they lied to the Holy Spirit. They were lying to the church about what they had given. They said, 'Yeah, this is everything' and they withheld some. And the problem wasn't necessarily that they withheld some, but they were deceptive about what they were doing. And they fell dead. And I think Anania and Sapphira were believers. There's nothing in the text that says that they were not Christians. But look at the response of the church to that event, "And a great fear fell over all the saints, over what had happened." Fear is a right response to the holiness of God for believers. And so I think that the way that the gospel authors, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, present this is the disciples are encountered with the voice from heaven, speaking about the nature of this person that they've spent time with, and disclosing to them something that they knew something about before, but now they're hearing it from what can only be the voice from Heaven that appears to them in a cloud, that they instinctively and culturally recognize. They know what a voice from a cloud means, they don't have to have somebody explain that to them. And they're on a mountain. All those bells and whistles are all coming on to them. They don't require any explanation, and they know the proper response.

Dan Gurtner 29:35
And so I think that kind of physical response communicates something to the readers of the reverence that they are relating to us. And also of what that is communicating about the message of this passage. That the disciples are to listen to Jesus, and that we are to listen to Jesus. That we're to listen to what he is instructing to the disciples, and that we are to listen to that too. And that Jesus' path was suffering, and that he is instructing his disciples that their path will be suffering. And for the 12, their path was also suffering historically. And for us, if our path, it's strange sometimes that for us as Christians and probably for some of the listeners to this podcast, we somehow treat it as strange whenever we suffer for our faith. Like what's going on here? That's not the way things are supposed to be. And Jesus tells his disciples plainly that part of what it means to follow Me is to suffer. And the apostle Peter-and I can't remember if it's first or second Peter-says, You shouldn't treat it as something abnormal if you suffer for being a Christian. That's a calling, that's a normal lot of a Christian, that's just part of what it means to be a disciple. So when we see that, the voice from Heaven is speaking to us saying, listen to Him.

Tyler Sanders 31:01
You know, I was going to ask you, as we were walking through that, or starting to talk through it, I was like, I feel like I should ask him, we always talk about not skipping too quickly to the application. Understand the passage. And I was gonna ask you what that may be in this passage, because I felt like we're getting close, but I think you just said it. That suffering is a part of this life. I mean, is there anything else you'd say, for a way to understand this? Because I think you kind of wrapped it up really, really nicely there. But if there's anything else you want to say...

Dan Gurtner 33:09
I think that's really it. And I also think that suffering is part of it, but also, I think attending to the words of Jesus, careful.

Tyler Sanders 33:21
To listen.

Dan Gurtner 33:22
To listen and to listen carefully. And to listen obediently. And to listen with fear and reverence. And to listen in a manner that pushes out competing voices in our minds and hearts.

Tyler Sanders 33:38
Hmmm. Fear will do that.

Dan Gurtner 33:41
Yeah, and it should do that. We have influences, and popular culture, books, media, social media, all kinds of things that we allow to influence in our lives. And we choose to do that. We have billboards, and we complain about what's on TV and what's in movies and things like that. But we make choices about what we choose to influence us. But if we've been told by the words on these pages, that there's a voice from heaven that is speaking down to the disciples, and it speaks to us today, with a reaction that causes fear and trembling for these men, who whatever else you have to say about Peter, he's not timid. And he doesn't lack courage. So his fear is not because he's a wimp. There's something else going on there. If there's a cloud that envelops us, and a voice that speaks from heaven when we're on our devices, or thinking about the influences in our lives, and the choices that we make, I think that can help us to stay on the pretty straight and narrow to do what is pleasing unto the Lord.

Tyler Sanders 34:58
Yeah. I think that's really good. It's a good wrap up for this episode. Thanks for walking us through this passage. I'm looking forward to talking about the next one.

Dan Gurtner 35:09
My pleasure.