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Discussions surround the 'most human subject there is'; Medicine. Recorded in November 2022.
Produced by New College, Oxford, 72 Weeks details how life can change, and indeed has changed, for people over the course of an Oxford University degree. Each episode focuses on a different theme, with guests having some form of commonality.
Daniel: Hello and welcome to the eighth episode of 72 Weeks. My name is Daniel and I�m the Head of Outreach and Communications here at New College, which is part of the University of Oxford. This Podcast is called 72 Weeks as that�s the average length of an Undergraduate degree course here at Oxford. And, in each episode, I�ll be talking to two people about how life can change, and indeed has changed, during that relatively short piece of time. Each episode, the people interviewed will have a common thread, or indeed threads, that they share with the other person and this week I�m delighted to be joined by current New College Undergraduate, Ei, and New College graduate, Grace. Ei is a second year medical student, here at New College and Grace qualified as a doctor after completing her clinical training at Oxford, where she was a student here at New College, before becoming a Consultant Psychiatrist and she now works as a successful screenwriter. So the field of Medicine unites my two guests which just leaves me to welcome and say good afternoon to Ei and good afternoon to Grace.
Ei: Yeah, hello
Daniel: Hello. Um, so, just a question, um, for both of you first of all. Can you just tell me a little bit about your upbringing, about your background, and what you were like in school.
Grace: Hmmm, so I grew up in West Yorkshire. I was born in Glasgow, moved to Yorkshire, and what was I like in school? I was probably a little bit of a nerd at school. I was sporty, academic, and yeah, quite geeky. But always, always, loved literature. As well as science, which becomes relevant when you see what I�ve done with my career.
Daniel: And Ei, what about you? What were you like in school?
Ei: Oh, I think I�d probably agree on sort of geeky. I tried quite hard. Um, I always just, I guess I always just wanted to do the best that I could. Um, but I was also just very chatty. I liked meeting new people. I was, kind of like that person who did every lunchtime club. Even if it was really random like playing the glockenspiel or like�
Daniel: That is random!
Ei: Yeah, or reordering the books in the library. I kind of just liked throwing myself into anything that school had to offer, whether that was like other students or whether that was work-wise.
Daniel: And whereabouts was home? Where did you grow up?
Ei: Yeah, I guess so starting from the beginning as well, I was born in Burma, um, and I grew up with my grandparents for the first few years there. Um, my parents started their life here in England and I moved over when I was quite young. I was like, three. And I, we moved around a lot as we sort of were trying to find our place and where we�d settle. I actually went to like five or six primary schools. Um, but most of life was spent, and still is, in Nottinghamshire, in a really little village. Um, so coming to Oxford was really great because it was, like, expanding that little bubble.
Daniel: And Grace, what did you do for A level?
Grace: So in the end I did Maths, Chemistry, Biology, and English Literature.
Daniel: Um, Ei, what about you?
Ei: Oh, I really like that question because we�re seeing like more threads. Because actually my favourite subject in school was definitely French and Spanish. So, um, for my A levels I did Biology and Chemistry for like the science side but French and Spanish was great because, well, can I give a shout out to my teachers?
Daniel: Yeah, go for it
Ei: Um, Miss Sogas and Miss Seksier. They were the most like supportive teachers and they just made the subject so enjoyable and languages at the moment are just not very popular in schools so I had classes of like five people, six people, so it was really nice. And I was saying before how I just like talking and, um, languages was pretty much a subject where we would, maybe in French or Spanish, but we could talk about anything, ranging from oh what did you do last weekend to topics like, I don�t know, we did immigration in Spain. So it just covered a lot of ground and, like, talking. It also meant that when we were revising we could do things like watch TV in Spanish
Grace: Yeah, that�s great
Ei: Or, read a book in French. So it didn�t feel like, it didn�t feel like working.
Daniel: When did you think right I�m going to, that�s what I�m going to do. I want to be a Doctor.
Ei: I did enjoy sciences as well as the languages that I was doing. And I thought why is it that I actually enjoy languages. Because, when I thought about it I mean the literature and linguistics side of it is great but the aspect of it that mattered to me the most was the people and the talking. And it wasn�t really a subject that led me to deciding to study Medicine. It was more things that I was doing outside of academics, so I always felt that I was happiest or most fulfilled when I was like, I did tutoring for a while, and I volunteered at my local dance school and I always felt that, um, when I was meeting or talking to other people and they were sharing their stories, um, that�s when I was most excited. And I think Medicine is all about those stories and the sort of people behind them. So, that�s kind of my answer. It�s just people. In one word.
Grace: Yeah, I mean, similarly I have always been really interested in people and why people are the way they are. And I think through school I was quite good at Sciences, and quite interested also in the human body, particularly the brain. Um, and I think Medicine was quite a natural decision in that respect. Because it kind of combined all those different things. You know, like Ei was saying, storytelling. A lot of medicine is about putting together aspects of peoples� lives and trying to figure out different outcomes for that current story, or that chapter of their story. So I think Medicine was, the kind of subject at University that did combine a lot of things that I was interested in.
Daniel: And Ei, we know each other because you work, um, on the Step Up Programme here at New College as one of our Ambassadors and we�ve spoken about this, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, um, you�ve said to me a few times that you didn�t really understand what was going on during your Medicine degree in the first term. Tell me more about that and why you felt that way.
Ei: Yeah, and I think I should probably even say, even now I�m still not entirely sure that I, in inverted commas, know what�s going on. Um, but particularly at the beginning of first term, first year, um, you kind of come to Oxford and Oxford has this big like �oooh� name, where all the smart people come. And whilst, um, we�ve all obviously done the same application process and arrived here, you come here expecting everyone to be like, geniuses, and then I went to my first few lectures and it just, they covered so much content, so many words that you�ve, like, never even heard of. And it was all very complex. And especially when you�re sat there in a lecture theatre and there are people scribbling away next to you, or, like you can hear them typing in the background. And at the beginning, I was just sat there thinking, oh, am I in the right place? I�m not sure.
Daniel: I should have done French!
Ei: Yeah! I�m not sure I have any idea what�s going on. And I think the difference between first year and second year was that in first year, I thought �oh, I�m the only person who feels this way�. Um, I�m not understanding what�s happening, and therefore I might not be in the right place. But the great thing about Medicine is definitely the community. Like, we�re here for a long time.
Grace: Yup
Ei: At Oxford, for six years. And because of that we just form a community really quickly. At New College and Oxford as a whole, we have a medical society and it�s really good for meeting other medical students outside of a lecture setting. And I remember at the beginning of first year we had this event called dissection drinks. Um, and that was the first time I spoke to other medical students outside a lecture theatre and someone brought up the topic of �oh, how are you finding lectures?� And that was the first time people really openly voiced what I was thinking. And it was very much a universal �yeah, I don�t really know what�s going on either. We�re all just kind of trying our best�. And that was the moment when I was like �oh, OK, this is how it�s supposed to feel�. And the best part about it is that we can help each other out and do it together. Um, so this year, I�d say, you know, the topics are still really hard, the ideas are still really complicated but I�ve realised that that�s OK. And we�re not meant to understand everything straight away.
Daniel: Mmm. And Grace, you sort of did the double whammy. So you did your first three years of Medicine in Cambridge and then came to Oxford for years four, five, and six. Um, so when you were in Cambridge, what did you do during those first three years?
Grace: So the first three years were trying to give students a solid foundation in Science and we did pretty hardcore Science. We did anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, pathology, neuroanatomy, like, it went on and on and it was like, if felt like doing multiple degrees. And we had, just to remind us that we were training to be doctors, we had something called preparing for patients as a tiny thread that ran through the three years, where we would, sort of, take on case-studies either on GP patients or there was one where we would follow a pregnancy through to term. And, yeah, just to keep us grounded in that. But they had a real belief that you needed a solid scientific understanding of like basic principles of medicine and science really, to be a good doctor, so we made our way through all of that.
Daniel: And Ei, does that sound similar to what you�re doing now?
Ei: Yeah, all those subjects you�ve listed are almost basically identical to the ones that I�m doing now. Yeah, I�ve got the classic sort of biochemistry, physiology, anatomy. But I like also, we have this thing called the patient doctor course. Which is basically that thread you were talking about where, you know, once or twice a term we�ll go to a GPs and talk to patients. And I actually think that�s one of the best bits, because like you said it reminds us why we�re really here. Because we both, like, love the science but it�s the people that matter more.
Grace: Yeah
Daniel: This might be a really stupid question but do you use that sort of thing when you�re a practising doctor then?
Grace: I would say, surprisingly, it does come in handy when you have to think on your feet because what..When I was a student, all of us, we�d just be like, why do we need to know this random biochemical equation? Why do we have to understand these complicated pharmacological pathways? It�s like to degree level for something that we�re not going to do. But, I would say, at multiple times during actually practising as a doctor and doing things like membership exams, those basic principles were what I would draw on to answer questions and to understand physiologically what was going on with a patient. And be able not to just have memorised the list of five causes for x, y, or z or what drug you give at this point, but to understand why those things were happening. And what like mechanisms of action were going on. And it sort of, what they�re doing is giving you a kind of common sense understanding of medicine. So it might seem like nonsense or unnecessary and cruel at times. At times the methods of examination probably are but the science that I learnt in my first three years, it�s just there as a kind of layer of comprehension that you don�t realise you�ve developed. And that�s what those three years are.
Ei: That�s a really nice perspective to have because when Dan asked that question, my immediate reaction was nah
Grace: I could see you shaking your head!
Ei: I physically shook my head! It�s nice to know there�s relevance and seeing it from the other side, like at the end of the degree that I can still use the things that I�ve learnt in the first couple of years.
Daniel: So when your friends say, �why are we doing this?� You can say, well, look, a consultant psychiatrist told me that�
Ei: Yeah
Daniel: And Ei, how did you land on New College specifically, within Oxford University?
Ei: Um, I kind of sat down and the first thing I did was with a map of Oxford, draw an x on the medical department, and then I thought, you know, I�m probably going to have 9.00ams pretty much every day. I don�t really want to be walking half an hour or cycling, so I drew sort of a radius of ten to fifteen minute walks, um, and New College sort of made the cut in that case. Uh, after that I decided that I wanted to go to a College with a really big Undergraduate community. So New College has one of the biggest in Oxford. Because like I was saying, I like meeting people, I like talking to them, um, and New College is just so pretty. I thought if I�m going to live in Oxford, I might as well live somewhere as stunning as College. And we have massive green spaces. And I said that I came from like a little village, um, so it was nice to have a space in College where I could just go for a walk in the gardens or lie in the grass for a bit.
Daniel: And you�ve mentioned a few times, Ei, that you like talking to people. You must be itching to start the clinical years. Um, so that you get to meet people. Is that something you�re really looking forward to?
Ei: Yeah. So, um, if I had something that was the thing that I was most looking forward to in the clinical years, it would be that. And being able to put the sort of science that I�ve learnt into actual practice. Um, but that being said, I don�t mind the preclinical split because I was talking about meeting people and I find that other medical schools in the country, the medical students can be quite split from the rest. It�s kind of University of so and so, and then the medical school is slightly apart from that. Whereas here, I have friends who do like every subject imaginable and that just really makes for sort of inverted commas, normal, Uni experience because I get to meet people who do all subjects, so dinner table conversations don�t all revolve around medicine. Like sometimes there are philosophy things or just conversations about whether apple or orange juice is better. Like, it�s just nice to be able to sort of have three years of almost any other science degree because then you can really be part of University life and you�re not set apart.
Daniel: And Grace, what were your favourite memories of being in New College?
Grace: Oh my goodness, there�s so many. Um, well like Ei was saying, I think the ability just to step out of your room into these absolutely stunning college grounds, just lying on the grass, reading books. In Spring when all of the magnolia and the blossom falls off the trees, it�s�I used to do a lot of photography at University and just seeing that and just spending, probably missing some lectures, just taking photos of how gorgeous college was. I mean specific things that I did, I was, I did creative for the May ball and that took up a lot of time. That was really really fun and something that has stuck in my head and forever will do. I mean in my flat I have the posters that I designed, are hung up on the wall and I still have photos of cloisters that were taken in preparation for the balls. So that was one of the highlights of being at New College.
Daniel: Oxford balls, Cambridge balls, they�re quite big deals aren�t they. Um, Ei, did you go to the New College ball last year?
Ei: Yes, I did. So the New College Commemoration Ball happens sort of every three years, and I guess with Medicine it�s nice because we get to go to two. Um, but it was also nice as it happened in my first year and will also, hopefully, happen sort of in fourth year. Um, so a lot of my friends will still be here. But, yeah, that�s sort of the thing that kind of makes you want to pinch yourself. I remember walking in to, um, College which I�ve spent a year living there already but on the ball night it was just something different. There was an atmosphere of celebration, it was festive, and it was a really nice way to end the year. We kind of just finished exams and I suppose commemorating New College but commemorating a year in Oxford, sort of, and all the friends that we�ve made and, yeah, that was an incredible night.
Daniel: And Grace, you mentioned you did some photography, you obviously helped to organise the ball. Um, Ei, what do you do when you�re not in your medicine lectures and tutorials? What do you do in your free time?
Ei: So, one of my favourite things outside of medicine is dancing. I dance with the University ballroom and latin team and that�s just one of the best experiences here. I mean my last year was probably one of the best years I�ve had yet because of all the people that I met, um, and the experiences that I had in Oxford and one of those was definitely being part of this incredibly supportive team, outside of medicine, doing something that I love doing. And we got the opportunity to sort of travel the country, I danced in Blackpool in February, which I was like �wow, I feel like I�m on Strictly!� But it�s just things like that which are unexpected. I didn�t expect to be in Blackpool when I applied to Oxford because you don�t really think about the sort of, you apply to the subject and where you want to live, um, and sort of assume that extra-curriculars will fall into place. But they really did for me and that was amazing. And just besides the extra-curriculars, I actually think medicine would be harder, like I wouldn�t be able to do, like give my all to medicine if I didn�t give my all to dancing because, um, it�s the break that I need. It�s the weekly boost that keeps me going. Um, but besides that, especially at New College, you bump into people in and around College all the time and there�s always, always, something on that you kind of like tag along to. Whether that�s a karaoke night or pottery brunch, um, it�s just a really nice way to take a break or sometimes take a break when you�re not meant to. But it�s always worth it because you end up enjoying what you do.
Daniel: And to come back to medicine, Grace, you finish your exams, what, sort of June is it? Of the sixth year?
Grace: In sixth year, I don�t know if they still do it, but we did our finals early, in January. So that was quite amazing, we then had six months of electives and special study modules, unless you had not passed finals, in which case, everyone else went off to have a really fun time and you had to do resits, and there�d only be a handful of people who had to do that, so it was really awful for them. But, yeah, I don�t know if they still have it that way but we were one of the few medical schools in the country that did them early.
Ei: Um, I�m not sure about sixth year, um, when we do exams but I do know that we still have that elective. So we can spend six weeks pretty much anywhere in the world that we can get a place to, sort of, do medicine but also experience new cultures and places so that�s something I�m looking forward to.
Daniel: Where did you go for yours Grace?
Grace: Well, so I had a slightly awkward time on mine because I had planned to go to France and then Japan. And it had all been paid for, and I was going to go to France on my own for the first bit, and then going to meet two other medical students for Japan. But I got blood clots during the first part of mine and I wasn�t able to fly to Japan, so I ended up staying in France doing cardiothorasic surgery as my placement for the entire time. So, we had eight weeks then so I feel like I was there for two months. But I still had a really good time and they did, like, excellent healthcare for me as well whilst I was there, so that was quite good. Uh yeah, but it was a wonderful, wonderful time to have, like you know, as part of your degree.
Daniel: And then you qualify, and then in August, everybody across the country starts don�t they. Um, and that�s the thing that just blows me away. Um, is that it�s nerve-wracking starting a job, whatever you do, but I think starting a job as a doctor is pretty much one of the most terrifying things you can do. Um, and I�m just in awe of young doctors who do that. So Grace, can you remember your first shift as a doctor?
Grace: The whole thing is a bit of a blur. But, I mean, I can remember the fear. The feeling of being almost like an imposter. That you�re suddenly this doctor who can advise people, and people are asking you. I mean there�s no like real transition from being a medical student one day, to the next day being a doctor. And I feel like there�s nothing that can prepare you for that shift. You are just kind of thrown in at the deep end. I can remember my first on call in A&E. That was like a baptism of fire. It�s just, you get given this bleep and suddenly people are calling you from all sorts of wards and you�re running around. And all the things that you�ve kind of practised, you suddenly are having to do it without your friends around, practising on each other or like, you know, attempts to get it wrong and then try to get it right. You�re just having to do it for the first time. So the nurses on the wards are your best friends. Because they know how to do everything that you need to learn and now when I look back at it and particularly in relation to the TV show which is a medical show that I�ve been working on, which was set in a fake hospital, I felt a real sense of pride at my younger self. Because I�d be like, I don�t know how I could do this now, but I did it when I was like 23, 24. So, yeah.
Daniel: And, Ei, do stories like that, do they either make you excited or do they fill you with fear? How do you feel about the idea of becoming a junior doctor?
Ei: I think filling with fear, I think the distance is helping at the moment because, sort of, even just getting through the pre-clinical, the like academic side of it, um, so I�m perhaps not filled with fear but apprehensive. I know that it�s going to be, like, a big change. And I think the most nerve-wracking part of it is the fact that we then have that title of Doctor. And there�s a lot of weight with that word, like, in front of your name. We�re meant to be able to know what we�re doing. And I�ve said already, even in medical school, we don�t always know what�s going on whereas once you�re a doctor, and it�s lovely that we get help from nurses and lots of people in the team, um, but there is also the �you�re on your own�. In the sense that, um, it�s up to you to make decisions now. And that is nerve-wracking definitely.
Daniel: At a young age as well, that�s the thing isn�t it? You know, most 22, 23 year olds can�t, sort of, make a decision about the most trivial things but junior doctors are asked to make, well, life-changing decisions sometimes. Um, so Grace you did your rotations and then you decided to specialise in Psychiatry. What was it about this field of medicine that you found interesting?
Grace: So I think it goes back to the idea of patients and their stories, and Psychiatry being the bit of medicine that is still a little less prescribed and definitive. So there�s still room for, kind of, your thinking to really contribute to how your patient�s care is managed. You don�t have to, it�s not protocol driven in the way that, you know, they�ve got x y and z symptoms so you must follow exactly these steps. You have to have a think about their whole life story. So you will start from birth, you go through school, their childhood, their adolescence, their relationships and then you try and work out, you know, from that story what has brought them to you at that particular time in their life. And if there�s anything from their story, as well as their current circumstances, that can help you treat them. So I found psychiatry to be the most satisfying bit of medicine because it has everything and I think as someone who loves stories and a bit of mystery and detective work, um, it was the bit of medicine that allowed for constructive debate with your colleagues as well as to what might be going on with your patients.
Daniel: And it must be incredibly difficult as well because when people are seriously mentally unwell, you ultimately see them at their most fragile and that can obviously be very difficult for you to deal with as a human being. So, how then do you go home and put those stories and those things that have happened to one side and live your own life. How did you deal with that side of things?
Grace: It�s hard. I think there are certain types of personality that are better suited to being able to switch off because you do see, as you say, people at these crisis moments in their life. You know, whatever bit of medicine you�re doing, you will see people in great distress, you will see people in great amounts of pain, you have to break bad news, and I think it�s very hard to finish a shift and switch off from all of that. I mean, even now, I have, I can remember specific patients and their families going back to actual medical school. Because they stay with you. I think in order to maintain a healthy balance, it�s really important to have, like, hobbies, have friends who are medics because, you know, they�re people you can talk to. But also to have friends who are completely separate from it. And do things that are separate from medicine because, you�re probably already finding Ei, being a medical student is in itself very involving. And as you progress in your career, it�s possible for it just to take over your whole life, so just trying to make sure you have something outside of that, that you can use to let off steam. And understanding that it�s OK for it to get to you. Because you�d be inhuman if it didn�t affect you.
Daniel: So Ei, in the words of Strictly, you�ve got to keep dancing.
Grace: Keep dancing, yeah
Daniel: Keep dancing. And Grace, you�ve mentioned now that you�ve left the medical profession, but what was the best thing about being a doctor?
Grace: So the best thing would be the patients who you could feel you had really positively contributed to changing their life. I mean, I think a lot of people outside medicine think you just go in there every day and you�re saving lives. But a lot of the time, I think, especially as a Junior Doctor it�s easy to feel like you�re not making any difference and you�re just this cog in the wheel and it wouldn�t matter if you weren�t there, there�s like another unit of junior doctor who can step into your place. But, sometimes you really can see the difference that a decision that you have made and has made to the patient�s life. And that, you know, it�s a privilege. And you talked about it being a privilege to hear people�s stories earlier. That is a privilege that you don�t really get I think in other jobs. So that�s probably the best thing about it.
Daniel: But in terms of writing, um, you�ve had a prolific career and I�m just going to read here from my script because there�s so many things. So you were selected as the first ever writers apprentice for Carnival Film and Television and you were also selected for the 4Screenwriting 2017 scheme, and included on the BBC�s new talent hotlist, uh, you were then selected for the BAFTA Elevate Talent Scheme for writers in 2018, um, and you�ve written Comedy Dramas, including In The Long Run and Grace Under Pressure for Sky. So, how did you become a writer full-time in terms of making the decision to think, I�m not going to be a Consultant Psychiatrist anymore, I�m going to be a writer. Because that must have been a difficult decision to arrive at. How did you go about doing that?
Grace: So that, yeah, that was a difficult decision. I mean I think it was helped by the fact that I have always wanted to write. In my head, being a writer was like my dream career. I mean at one point, I did have the names of different doctors who�d become writers as a thing that was just stuck up in my room as a bit of inspiration. So making the jump wasn�t, like, mentally hard but, maybe actually I�m going to say one thing, psychologically it was difficult in that medicine is something that, you know, it�s not just a job it�s sort of part of your personality. And yeah, who you are and how you think. And it�s a very hard thing to kind of put down. I mean I would still say, I mean I�m still a doctor, uh, my parents would definitely say that I�m still a doctor, 100%, never stopping and probably going back. But I think leaving my job to try and give writing a go was more a thing of, if I don�t do it now, I probably never will. And I had always been like I just need to get to the next stage and then I can take some time out to see whether I could do some writing, but it�s you know, you go through foundation training and then you go to core training, and you do feel you kind of need to keep going with each step of the way, so I was quite fortunate in that a lot of the things you�ve listed, I was able to do whilst I was doing my registrar training. And the 4Screenwriting course, that came to an end around the same time that I qualified as a consultant. And I was very fortunate that I was offered a job working with Idris Elba, which helped my decision making, because had I not been given this opportunity to write for one of our biggest stars, it would have been a much harder decision to make, because you know a lot of people, like, becoming a consultant is what you aim for in medicine. And to leave that and go to the bottom rung of a different profession, although not quite the bottom rung because I was quite lucky that I had a nice job offer. Um, yeah, it was a leap of faith because I had also never written comedy before so it was, I wanted to do drama and the only job offer I got was comedy, so yeah.
Daniel: So how did Idris Elba, how did he come on to your radar? Or vice versa?
Grace: Vice versa! So when you do, part of the 4Screewriting scheme and why it�s so popular is that it kind of, it�s an introduction into television writing so you write a script and they do it in the same kind of timeline as you would when you�re making a TV show and then they do this big industry evening where lots of people from the different broadcasters, lots of agents and people come along who have jobs in mind and stuff, so you a few conversations and after that I got offered this job, and I had to go an interview and stuff for it. Yeah, it was I think the 4Screenwriting thing was something that was instrumental and also getting on the BBC hotlist because Idris Elba was involved in curating that.
Daniel: So cool. Um, and there is a tenuous link here because Bill Bailey is in the cast of In The Long Run
Grace: Yeah!
Daniel: And of course, he won Strictly. Now Ei, you�ve mentioned that you�re a University, is it ballroom and latin dancer?
Ei: Ballroom and latin, yes
Daniel: Do you specialise in one or?
Ei: This term I�m specialised in ballroom but generally both
Daniel: Specalises in ballroom, so you started ballroom dancing in Oxford didn�t you at Oxford, you hadn�t done it before.
Ei: Um, so I�ve been dancing since I was about five, but I�ve always done the sort of ballet, jazz, lyrical, and it�s something that�s always been a massive part of my life not only as, like, a sport and something to do in my free time, but as a community. It�s, the dance community is something I�ve grown up in. So coming to University I thought one of the big big things I was like I don�t know if I could, throughout life when things have been just a struggle, dance has been, like, a saving point for me. And I thought, you know, I know that Oxford and medicine is going to be hard and I really need something like dancing to keep me going. Um, so I immediately at Freshers� Fair, I didn�t look at very many other stalls, I made a beeline for the sort of University dance team. And at the beginning of first year, I auditioned for this dance team, this was for the usual sort of contemporary thing that I�d been doing since I was really little, and I actually got rejected. And at the time I was devastated, I thought, you know, am I going to find a place at Oxford where I can dance, am I going to have something to sort of be my release? Um, and I went to a couple of other dance classes, just open ones, but nothing really clicked and this was at the sort of same time, I was saying at the beginning of first year, where I also didn�t know what was going on in medicine. So it was all quite overwhelming and someone just said, I�m going to this like, taster ballroom and latin class. Um, do you want to come along? And I almost said no because I was writing my first ever Oxford essay at the time and I didn�t really know how to write an essay and I was like, I should really stay and work. But I�m really glad that I didn�t because I ended up going to this class and then someone was like, oh we have a beginners team if you�d like to audition. Uh, and I almost said no to that as well because I thought mmm, a competitive team alongside medicine, is it doable. But I just thought, I�ll go to the auditions and drop out from the team, like later on in the year, uh, which I evidently didn�t do. I ended up um dancing with the team, I mean we went, I�ve mentioned Blackpool already but we did all over the country.
Daniel: Do you all get together on a Saturday and watch Strictly? That�s what I imagine you all do.
Ei: Oh, I actually haven�t watched Strictly this year which is really sad
Daniel: Haaa, Ei!
Ei: I know! And, um, I think it is just the time thing, um, I�d say Oxford is for, full of opportunities, yes academic wise but also just socially, so when I�m here I just fill it with physically dancing but also just doing other things, going out with my friends.
Daniel: Now Grace, I saw an interview with you and you mentioned that the field of scriptwriting isn�t as diverse as it could, or should be. Um, and the lack of Black British Students at New College is something that we�ve worked hard at addressing over the last few years, largely by working with external agencies such as Thinking Black who we sponsor a Creative Writing competition for. But we still have a huge amount of work to do in that area. So, on that, why do you think Black British People are under-represented at institutions like Oxford University?
Grace: So I think it�s because it doesn�t seem like, on the face of it, it�s the place for you. So I, you know, think you don�t see as many, kind of, Black British graduates coming out and saying that they�ve been there and they had a good experience. I think, often, you hear about ethnic minority students who haven�t had a good experience and that�s even more off-putting. So I think we just need to be more visible, and you know, be able to talk about some of the more inclusive aspects of the University situation. Because, I mean I, people are often surprised that I have had just the time of my life at Oxford and Cambridge. I�ve really really loved being at both. And yes, I was very much in the minority. It was like 2002 through to 2008, and there were times when I felt maybe a little bit like an outsider, but it didn�t stop me from, you know, trying to engage as much as I can and making the most of all the fantastic opportunities that there are. And I think it�s just a shame that people are put off applying because it seems like an institution that�s not necessarily for them. So I just think we just need better, more targeted outreach. And I think New College, I would say, and again I probably am biased because I know a bit more about it, but I think New College has been doing some really brilliant things in the past few years to improve that kind of outreach and access to more diverse groups of students.
Daniel: And Ei, you mentioned that your family come from Burma originally. So how have you found being an ethnic minority at Oxford?
Ei: So, yeah, I remember googling the online sort of what countries different students, all across the University have come from, and I scrolled all the way down. Went looking for B first but there was no Burma, I scrolled to Myanmar, um, and there were no Undergraduates from Burma listed. And I thought, well it would have been exciting to meet someone sort of from a similar background, who, with shared cultural experience but, um, at the same time I�ve mentioned that I come from a very small village in Nottinghamshire and actually it wasn�t very diverse there either. I was very much a minority. Actually, for me coming to Oxford was an improvement in terms of diversity so when I came here I was really excited. I was like, actually ok, there are no Burmese people but there are all kinds of people; international students, not international students. Just people from lots of backgrounds so coming to Oxford, and another reason why I picked New College in terms of big communities was that I wanted to meet more people from different backgrounds because I hadn�t had that opportunity as much at home.
Daniel: Um, I suppose I have a lot of empathy, sympathy, for doctors because my sister is a GP and has been for a number of years. And she�s one of the few people I know who absolutely loves her job, and still does and even after everything in the pandemic, um, she still says if anyone wants to do medicine, I would absolutely tell them to do it. Which is amazing really, so Ei, on this note, if there are some students listening who think �oh, I don�t know if I want to do it, I don�t know if it�s a bit scary. Um, why should they apply for medicine?
Ei: I know I�m supposedly biased but I think it is the most human subject there is. Whilst medical school is challenging, it�s so worthwhile. You learn so much, not only about the science, but about yourself as well because of the trial by fire. You learn to sort of build that resilience, you make friends through shared struggle almost. And the six years can seem off-putting sometimes, but actually some of my friends who are only here for three years are almost halfway through their degrees and I wouldn�t feel ready to leave just yet. I�m sort of really enjoying it. And I�d say the six years are going to pass anyway, whether it�s doing a degree for three and then starting a job, or sort of doing medicine for six years, so you might as well spend those six years doing something that you�re passionate about. Even if it does take a bit longer. And I think my final sort of point on that is for medicine, sort of the classic reason is helping others. We love people and we want to help others, which is entirely true. But I think if there�s one thing that I�ve learnt, not only studying medicine but before that as well is that when I�ve helped or met people who are struggling, um, I�ve maybe been able to help them but actually I�ve learnt so much from them in turn. Whether that�s sort of resilience in the face of hardship, the courage that people display, and that�s really powerful actually. Because whilst medicine is helping others at its core, you find that I�ve equally learnt just as much or if not more from the people that I�ve sort of helped.
Daniel: And Grace, do you think you�ll ever go back to medicine?
Grace: Uh, so I did go back. I left completely to write full time in 2019. Then the pandemic happened. And I went back because I think it�s that thing, once you�re a doctor, you�re always a doctor. And having a medical degree and being a consultant when there�s a global pandemic happening, didn�t feel quite right just sitting at home. So, I think you know, I will always be a doctor and I�m sure I would never say never, although at the moment I feel like I don�t know if I could juggle the two careers as I did. I did for two years do like part time medicine and writing and, but I think that with medicine and the writing, they�re not as dissimilar as people think. They are about peoples� stories and I definitely think I�ve been able to kind of progress in my writing career because of my medical background and you know you get exposed to people from all different walks of life, you�re in all sorts of different high pressured situations, and that lends itself quite nicely to story-telling. So I think they are more similar than people would think and again with television and film, you are trying to make a difference in peoples� lives and I can�t tell you the number of times when as a doctor, you�ve had patients who will not take whatever advice you have given them, but on Eastenders or their favourite TV show, one of their favourite characters is suddenly doing something and they want to do that too. That health message has, you know, got across to them because of the power of TV. And, you know, I think we can�t really underestimate the power of the arts in terms of how therapeutic it can be and getting like useful messages out there as well.
Daniel: And in terms of the crossover of the two, um, can you tell us about your exciting new project which will be coming to ITV soon.
Grace: I say I�ve left medicine but I clearly cannot get enough of it. So I�m doing an original drama series for ITV which is called Malpractice. And it is about doctors who investigate doctors. So I�m making it with the makers of a programme called Line of Duty and if you are familiar with Line of Duty it�s about police policing the police. So the anti-corruption unit go in. So not to say it�s an anti-corruption medic unit, but it�s a fictional version of the GMC who investigate a doctor who may be or may be not, you know it�s up for debate, whether she did something wrong during her shift. And it just examines all the different layers of what it�s like, I think, to be a junior doctor when you�re responsible, you�re under pressure, and you make a snap decision, in the moment, and then there are repercussions. And those repercussions follow you around and you constantly second guess yourself and think about what you would have done if you�d had more time but you didn�t have more time. So I just wanted to, kind of, give a slightly different perspective on being a doctor and that experience which you will have at some point, that all doctors I know go through and isn�t necessarily dramatized so much.
Daniel: And it�s all been filmed?
Grace: Yeah, it�s all been filmed, we�re in post-production. I�ve seen the first four episodes, we�ve got one more for me to have a look at in the edit, and yeah, ITV are very excited about it and who knows there might even be a second series. Touch wood.
Daniel: Touch wood. Brilliant. And just to finish, I ask everybody this question at the end, and Grace it will be directed at you. So, an average Oxford degree takes up 72 weeks of your life. Medicine, in some way does, because it�s split into two lots of 72 weeks, so we�ll say that it does. Um, if you could relive those weeks again, what if anything would you do differently? And secondly, what one piece of advice would you give to Ei as she embarks on her career within the field of medicine?
Grace: I would make the most of all the extra-curricular. I mean I think I probably did give it a good go whilst I was here, but I just wish I had done even more because you�re only at Oxford for a short period of time and you have an access to so much stuff, it�s just on your doorstep. As you say, you can try out anything, just give it a go in quite a safe environment. And, yeah, if I could go back, I would just try everything that I could within the time period because it�s there and like you say, you never know who you are going to meet or what that will lead to you discovering about yourself. And, the one piece of advice I would give you on starting your career. This is not hard for me at all. But it would be to ask. Never ever feel embarrassed to ask anything. Like when you start off as a junior doctor, people don�t expect you to know everything. And it�s the one time where you are junior enough that you can ask everything. And very quickly you�ll get to a point where you�ll think oh my god, I wish I�d just asked that when I started because I should know it now and I don�t really know. You know, there is no question that is too silly to ask because it�s better for someone to tell you how to do it than try to figure out for yourself. And that may be at your own expense or at the expense of a patient. Always ask.
Ei: Thank you so much.
Daniel: And thank you Grace, and thank you Ei for that fascinating insight into the field of medicine. That was really really interesting. So thanks very much.