Running 4,600 Miles Across the Sahara, 18 Months in Federal Prison & 33 Years Sober with Charlie Engle

What does it take to run across the Sahara Desert, survive federal prison, maintain 33 years of sobriety — and come home to be a full-time caretaker for the person you love? Charlie Engle has lived all of it.

In this episode, Kenny sits down with ultramarathon legend, New York Times bestselling author, and charity: water ambassador Charlie Engle for one of the most raw, real, and inspiring conversations we've ever had on the show.

In this episode:

• Why being a caretaker for his wife for 10+ years has been harder than any race or prison sentence
• How running 4,600 miles across the Sahara Desert changed his relationship with suffering
• The truth about what federal prison is actually like — and why the system isn't built to rehabilitate anyone
• How 33 years of sobriety shaped his identity, discipline, and drive
• His upcoming charity: water expedition and why he keeps chasing the next impossible goal
• The mindset shift that took him from always asking "what's next?" to learning to live in the present moment
• Why owning your narrative is everything — and what happens when you let others tell your story

Charlie's story isn't just about physical endurance. It's about what it means to keep moving forward when life strips everything away — and why the only compass that matters is the one inside you.

CONNECT:
Follow Charlie:  @charlieengle
Follow Kenny: @kennysantucci
Follow Strong New York: @strongnewyork

This episode is sponsored by Celsius, the energy drink that fuels every Strong New York workout. Visit @celsiusofficial on Instagram to see all of their new flavors!

This episode is sponsored by Marek Health. Optimize your hormones, recovery, and performance. by visiting marekhealth.com. Use code KENNY at checkout for  10% Marek Diagnostics, Supplements and the Marek Health Guided Optimization signup.

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Join Kenny as he sits down with his strong as fuck buddies and shoots the shit on what it takes to be strong willed, strong minded and physically strong. Season one features everyone from entrepreneurs and local business owners to doctors and industry leaders in the fitness and wellness space.

With over a decade of experience, Kenny Santucci has made himself known as one of New York City’s top trainers and a thought leader in the health and wellness industry. After transforming his life at 15 years old through fitness, Kenny made it his mission to transform the lives of those around him.

Kenny has trained some of Hollywood’s biggest stars, including Jon Bon Jovi, Liev Schreiber, and Frank Ocean, and has been tapped as a fitness expert sharing his training approach with Men’s Health, Men’s Journal, Runner's World, SHAPE, Well+Good, among other publications.

Kenny is the creator of STRONG New York, NYC's only Health and Fitness Expo. Strong New York is an immersive day of workouts, wellness experiences, panel discussions, and inspiring conversations with the best in-class wellness professionals, industry leaders, and change makers who are sharing their expertise on today's hottest wellness trends and first-hand experiences on how to optimize your overall health and life.

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We are back with another episode of the Strong New York podcast.I'm your host, Kenny Santucci, and as always, we are cracking cans of Celsius open and we are living fit.Also, go to merrickhealth.com, sign up, use the code Kenny, because you need to get your blood work done if you wanna live the best, fittest version of your life.You need to get your hormones checked, you need to get some blood work done, and Merrick Health does it all in one spot.They are some of the best in the business, so please go check them out.Uh, today's guest, 33 years of sobriety, 4,600 miles through the Sahara Desert, 18 months in a federal prison.Uh, the list goes on and on.I can't wait to dive into this story.Without further ado, Charlie, how we feeling, man?I'm good, Kenny.Thank you, brother.Very interesting story.A lot to unpack here.But I wanna start with, um, you know, you've done so much crazy shit.You know, you've had a New York Times bestseller.You, you've been to federal prison.But one of the things that stuck out to me the most, and I think is the hardest thing, and people don't even realize, um, and I think that's why people are so up in arms about the medical industry right now- Yeahand the insurance business, because you've been a caretaker now for 10 years for your wife.Yeah.To me, that's gotta be not only physically draining- Mmbut mentally, emotionally, harder than all the other shit you've done.Yeah.I'm glad you started there, honestly, because it's, uh, I've only been married, th- this is the second marriage for both of us, and we've been married 13 years.And, you know, and she's a world-class adventurer, and she's one of the world's pre-eminent bird scientists, and, like, she's this amazing person, and 3 years into this new life that we were building, she got sick, and 10 years later she's still sick and will probably never not be sick.And, uh, you know, and so it, it shifted everything for me from, um, you know, from I think of a lens of achievement to a lens of focusing onI'm not a present moment guy.You probably could tell that, like, right away.I'm always like, "What's next?Let's go.Let's"Yeah.You know, all this.And it's forced me to be like, "Okay, today's a good day, my wife feels great.I've got 12 calls on the list.I'm canceling all of them and we're going to the beach."Yeah.Like, seriously.So it's- You gotta take advantage of those daysit's changed my mindset completely.Instead of looking at when some day comes and she feels better, some magical, mythical time, like, then we're gonna go, like, keep working on this life together.And the reality is that, of course, and I know you live the same way, like, this minute, this is it.Yeah.Like, this is what we got, and, like, you gotta get after it.Like, there's noThere is a tomorrow, but, like, you don't know what it c- whatIt'll be better or worse.I think that'sI don't know where we lost that, but, you know, you, you listen to a lot of phil- philosophical speeches and, uh, you know, ancient writings.Y- anything with any wisdom behind it talks about how important this moment is.And we're all so worried about, like, I just off the phone with my buddy who's a business guy.Mm.And he's 5 years, 10 years, blah, blah, blah.I'm like, "Dude, I don't fucking know if tomorrow's gonna happen."You know?I don't look that far.I think s- people are so obsessed with, like, you know, collecting as much money as they could and stocking it away because they wanna do this, that, and the other thing.I've been fortunate enough to be around a lot of wealthy people.Mm.And if you have 5 million or 50 1000000, on a daily basis what's really changing?Yeah.You wear the same shit.Like, I have billionaire clients who wear the shittiest clothes.They're wearing beat-up Nike sneakers.Yeah.At the end of the day, it's like, all right, what, somebody drove you to work?You're still sitting in the same traffic everybody else is.Yeah.Right?So I think people aren't taking advantage of the moments, and I- YeahI appreciate that you said that.Like, when she feels good, we attack the day, we have a good time.Yeah, yeah.You know, and it seems like you've lived that way your whole life.But for her, what has she been struggling with, and what has been that emotional point for you- Yeahdealing with that?Yeah.I mean, herI do have to keep her away from the loss of the situation.Like, for her, she's younger than I am, so we definitely did not expect that I would be the one caretaking her.I mean, I made, I made jokes early in our relationship even that like, thank goodness I have someone younger than me because, you know, she can take care of me.How much younger than you?17 years.Okay.So, you know, it's significant.And, um, and so that wasBut that was never my plan either.It just, weThis is not her first cancer.She had cancer 3 times before in her life.So she's a person who understands something about suffering and about hardship.And as you know from the things you know about my story, I know a few things about both self-imposed suffering and suffering that kinda comes out of the blue.Mm-hmm.And, and I think the, the lesson for us, and i- I do have to keep her away fromI mean, we went six and a half years, dude, without going out to dinner.Like, not once.Like, I mean, that's how sick she was, you know?And, and there was no, like, every day was about trying to, like, find the next solution to just solve today's nearly deadly problem.Yeah.And slowly but surely though, we are at a place now though whereWell, this is the other big thing.I know we'll be talking about my expedition for next year.Like, she is now making plans to come with me as part of my support team for a portion of that crazy expedition I'll do next year.And, like, to me, that is what it's all about, is giving her the motivation and the target of something to, like, shoot for.Um, and, you know, she's- She's a world-class athlete, played pro beach volleyball for years, and beautiful woman, and scientist, and all these things.And, like, it canPeople forget.We all actually know this.Like, it can be you or your family or your loved one or your main person, like, anytime.Yeah.You know?Well, it's funny you say that.I have a very close family member of mine who, out of nowhere, you know, she works out every day.She's got kids, you know, husband.Life was pretty peachy, and then one day she woke up and she got the news that she has blood cancer.Yeah.And it was a shock to me and my whole family, and we're like, "All right, fuck."Yeah."How do you continue on from this?"And looking down the road, I mean, she spent 2 months in Kessler.Mm-hmm.You know?And you think about it, you'reNobody could give you a 100% stamp of approval- Mmsaying that, like, "Hey, this isn't gonna come back."Yeah.So your wife suffered from it 3 times before.Yeah.Well, and they're all lymphomas, and so which technically is r- blood cancer, cancer adjacent.And, like, Hodgkin's, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.Like, she's kinda had everything.And the other, the, the other funny thing is one of my new sponsors, I actually don't know if it's gonna happen yet, so don't hold me to this, but, like, um, I'm hoping that AARP comes on board to actually tell the story of, you know, the sort of long-term version of, of us going from, uh, being newlyweds practically to this long 10-year journey of, um, of taking care of another person.Because eventually, if we're lucky enough to live long enough- Mm-hmmyou know, you're either gonna be a caretaker for someone, or someone's- Yeahgonna be caretaking you.Yeah.Well, you know, that brings me, uh, to a very important part of the conversation that I always like to bring up is for me, I've dedicated my life to this so that I could die in a gym.And everyone's like- Yeah"That's so morbid," and blah, blah, blah.But I go, "No.I started on this journey 'cause I was very unhappy with the way I looked and the way I felt."And then I realized that the only thing I wanna do every day, when I was onI was just in the south of France.I was in Monaco.The first thing I have to do is go work out.Mm-hmm.And if one morning I'm working out and I'm 50, 70, 90, 110, doesn't matter, and I have a massive heart attack in the gym, that means I was fit enough and healthy enough to die doing what I loved.Yeah, yeah.And I tell everyone, like, bury me in the gym.Yeah.That I'm, I'm happy if I go there because I don't want that.Yeah.Because I watched my grandmother, my father- Yeah, yeahmy aunt all die shriveled up in a hospital.And I'm like, "Please, God, if I go any way, I don't wanna go that way."I'm hoping that I, I'm eaten by crocodiles, which almost happened once.And there's some other way more interesting things.Well, I think you're putting- Like, I promised my kids, like, I will not die on the sofa.You're putting yourself in enough situations where the, the chance of you dying doing something crazy- Rightare pretty good.Well, I wanted to say before we move on that, like, y- I also happen to be in theSo I'm a very middle-class guy, but I, I work with and around a lot of very wealthy people.And, you know, and I'm in the longevity wellness world.Sure.You know?Like, e- you name it, fromAnd when I say in it, I'm around it, from, you know, stem cells in Costa Rica to peptides to every imaginable, like- What's your thoughts on that?Pardon?What's your thoughts on that?I mean, y- uh, to cut to the chase, I'm old school.The, theWhen I talk to an audience, and speaking is how I make my living most of the time, I don't care how many people are in the audience, I ask them, uh, you know, "How many of you, uh, you know, are, hate running?"Right?And of course, 90% of the audience will raise their hand- Yeahbecause most people hate running.And then I start telling jokes about, um, spending 50 grand to go to Costa Rica for stem cells.Do you think that'll help?And anyway, to cut to the chase, I always come around to this point, of if you're not moving your body for 30 minutes a day five, and I mean for me, 7 days a week, let meJust send me the $50,000 check.Sure.Because the stem cells aren't gonna do shit for you.Yeah.I agree.Right?If you have the dough and you're doing these other things and you wanna go crazy and, and do stem cells and peptides and all of that, then I, I don't think most of it isI mean, some of it's unproven around the harm, but I think most of it is just very expensive- Sureinjections.Yeah.For the most part.Yeah.Well, for myself, I mean, listen, I'm a peptide guy.I use- You could teach me a few things.Yeah.'Cause I need an education.Well, I definitely feel better use- I don't know, maybe it's, it speeds up the process.I don't know.Like, who fucking knows?Maybe it's placebo effect, but I definitely feel better on it than I did off it.With someone like you, I don't think it's p- can be placebo.Because you know your body well enough- Yeahto know- I know, I knowI mean, I teach when something's working.Yeah.You know?Yeah.For me, it's like I'm just trying to optimize the way I feel right now.Yeah.And I wanna help other people with that.I had a situation a couple years ago.I was having tremendous back pain.I started taking TRT.Mm.Back pain went away.Um, so for me, it's like I kinda believe in some of, if we wanna call it modern medicine or performance enhancement, whatever you wanna get- Yeahcall it what you will, but like I, I see the benefits of it.I think there's a lot of people, I think something like GLP-1 for a lot of people who've struggled- Yeahwith weight loss for a long time, give it, being the catalyst that gets them off the couch, gets them moving, gets them feeling good, it's like, okay, do it.But don't use that as a crutch.Yeah.And if you're not doing the big 3, I 100% agree.If you're not sleeping right-eating right- Yeahand then working out, then all this other shit is nonsense.And you don't need it.Because you're, you're trying to fucking stick a, a, a Band-Aid over a gushing wound.100%.It's not gonna happen.How old are you?I'm 43.43.So I'm th- I'm 20 years older than you are.Yeah.Although I make the joke all the time, I tell people I'm 75 so that they'll say, "Damn, you look great."I'm actually just 63.But, um, but you know, it's a, it is interesting how at my age things have, they've shifted.Like, I've been moving, I mean, 33 years sober, and even in my 10 years of, like, hardcore addiction, I still moved my body.You know, there, there were periods where I didn't move my body except from the sofa to the fridge or- Sureto the drug dealer.But, like, uh, but when I would clean up in those periods, I would run and I would go to the gym.I would lift.And I ran a few gyms early in my life.And like, so I, I had the good fortune of being in and around, like, the, the fitness industry.So I knew that was always there for me.But it is interesting at, at my age now, you know, it is harder.I never thought it would be 'cause I just felt like I was always gonna feel great.You know, of course I have some arthritis.I've got, you know, I've run 120,000 miles.You know, you can't do that to your body and not expectYou can't lift maybe the way- Yeahthat you do and not expect there to be some- Wear and tearwear and tear, for sure.For sure.So I've met and interviewed enough people who have had, suffered from addiction.Mm.I have some clients and friends who have suffered from addiction.And it seems, obviously because of the, the purpose of my podcast, you know, we always talk about health and wellness and fitness, but it always kind of relates back.It's like, if you clean up, get sober, then you start to some sort of fitness journey where you're either running or lifting or there's some new addiction.Mm-hmm.Do you feel that you're just coping with that same addiction by running?Is it the same kind of craving that you got?Kind of talk us through that.Yeah.Like, the parallels between-the drug addiction-what you're doing.Great question.Yeah, so 33 years ago when I did finally, uh, my first son was born and, you know, I thought just him being born was gonna, like, change me.Yeah.You know, because we think, I mean, what decent person wouldn't, like, change their life, you know, for their son?But it's not that simple, you know?And a couple months into his life, there I am again on another 6day binge with the police chasing me and- Mm-hmmyou know?And, and I, I had, I did, I had this epiphany that basically, um, you know, nobody was coming to save me.Like, a whole lot of people, I had a great support system and a whole lot of people wanted to help me, but I was unhelpable.Like, if I didn't want to be helped, you couldn't help me.And I mean, that's pretty much the same in fitness or- I say the same thing.Every day I meet some fucking bleeding heart here in the streets of New York and they're like, "Well, we need to help all these people."I'm like, "Yeah, but if they don't wanna be helped, you can't help them."Yeah.There needs to be some acceptance of the help.Otherwise, it's pointless.We're just throwing good money after bad.Yeah.No, that's fair.And we're wasting resources.We're wasting everybody's time.Like, right across the street, there's a fucking halfway house.Yeah.And it's the cause of 99%- Mmthe problems that we have on this block, and it's drugs- Yeahalcohol and all this shit.Yeah.And you're like, this, why does it need to be right in the middle- Yeahof the fucking city?if somebody wants to help themselves, I've met and worked with and talked to and trained enough people who've had, suffered from addiction where they're like, "I, you couldn't help me until I hit this point."Totally.You know?So- No, and I mean, and you just have to, sometimes you have to let people fail and fail and fail, and when they finally reach that point, hopefully they survive.Mm-hmm.I mean, honestly, I had to go throughThe same son I just mentioned, not surprisingly with genetics and everything else, he ended up with his own struggles later and I had to, I had to be willing, he was a fitness trainer at the time, and I had to be willing to let him really hit the ground hard, you know, before he was ready for help.But to get, to answer your, your first question about, you know, change, switching addictions, basically, when I, when I finally turned that corner and it is amazing how people will, and I'm sure you've faced it too- No matter how healthy you are and how many great things you're doing, people will find a way to criticize it.Sure.Oh, well it seems- Sure, yeahI mean, this is your, this is all you do is, like, work out?Why don't you have a life?I'm like, this is a life.Yeah.I mean, what, what, what don't you get about- Well-where my passions lie?Yeah.Well, people always say, like, "Oh, you're gonna spend the rest of your life in the gym?"I go, "Well, it's better than an office- Yeahor a fucking- Yeaha, a courtroom."Yeah.I don't- Well, people would say to me- All that shit sucks"It seems like you switched addictions."I'm like, "Well, I never sold my car to enter a marathon, so- YeahI'm pretty sure this is fucking better."Yeah, yeah, yeah.You know?The, 'cause I certainly sold my car to get dope.And- So- You knowso for you, it's like, okay, you have this epiphany.You're like, "All right.I'm the only one who can save myself."Yeah.You know, I think a lot of people who were in your shoes and, uh, wanna change their lives, they ha- they come to that same conclusion.All right, Superman's not showing up.It's all on me to do this.Yeah.And what made you start running?And, like, did it start with short distances?What was it?So, and, and to be clear on just on one thing, and I know, I know this is what you meant, what I did when I got sober was by, by saying, "This is on me," I then allowed all those other people to, like, support me, whereas, whereas before, I just said, "No, I don't need help.No, I don't need help.I don't need help because I can do, I'm, you know, I can do this myself."In denial?And w- I mean, I don't think I was in denial, but I was also like, you know, I was always the top salesperson at everything I did.I mean, addicts are amazing salespeople.Of course.Because we, we- Constantly lying to peopleright, we spend our lives lying to people.Yeah.So, like, we're awesome.Yeah.And so, uh, when I finally, you know, when I finally quit, I was, I allowed family and friends, and, and a l- and I even say these days, this sounds super woo woo, so sorry, but, like, I learned how to be vulnerable.And, like, my speaking, if you see me speak sometime, like I, I like to say that I just, like, believe in I just cut right here and dump all this shit out for everybody to see because we've all got it, and nobody really cares.We, we are, we are inherently self-focused, all of us.So no matter how bad you screw up, other people might think about you for 5 minutes- Yeahand then they're back to thinking about themselves.Yeah, yeah, of course.So that's why, again, you know, those, the people who I think end up, like, criticizing me for running, "Seems like all you do is run.You're addicted to running," I'm like, well, this is myYou know, running actually, like, saved my life, along with 12-step recovery.I did both.And, like, for 3 straight years, dude, I went, this wasn't the plan, but I just said, "I'm gonna run, and I'm gonna go to a meeting every single day until I feel better."Like, literally.And that was 3 years.For 3 straight years, I went to a meeting every day without missing a day, and I ran every day, and I ran 35 marathons in those 3 years.And the joke I'll always say is, like, obviously I had that whole addiction thing under control.Yeah, yeah.And, you know, but, but it was, it was my way through, and I finally started toFor a while, I fully admit there was some ego involved in that, like, you know, all those people who said, you know, all theWe all say that, right?All those people who said I was never gonna make it, I don't even know who, I don't know if anybody ever said that.Yeah.In my mind, there were- Yeahthere were people out there saying, "That guy's a screw-up, and he's never gonna do anything good."I, I definitely think there is some of that.I mean, even if you, even if it isn't blatant or published, there's definitely people who wanna see you fail.I, I feel it- Totallyall the time.And there are so many days I'm like, I feel good, and then you read something, you hear something, or just somebody just makes you feel a certain way, and you're like, "What am I not do- " Like, I truly want to see people win.Obviously- Yeahyes, I have my own fucking jealousy bullshit.I'm not saying I'm perfect.Of course.We all do.But at the end of the day, it's like I'm kind of, constantly fighting the idea, being like, "Hey, no, I can't win unless I help other people win."Yeah, yeah.You know, I can't fuck somebody over.I make sure, you could ask anybody who works for me, all my bills are paid.I don't owe anybody money.I hate that.and when people live like that, I'm like, I don't know how they sleep at night.Yeah.Knowing that you owe- Yeah, yeahyou're fucking somebody else over.So what, you survive another day?Yeah.You know?So- I think the, I think the biggest shift I had, though, was in those early days, and I think a lot of people are built this way, you know, I was insecure enough in sobriety even that if I was in a room with 10 people and, like, 9 of them loved me and thought I was amazing, if the other person hated my guts and thought I sucked- Yeahwhere did I put all my energy?To the per- Yeah.Yeah, to that guy.And like now, not everyone is going to like you, and it's one of the best things you can ever learn.And it- And if, and if everybody does like you, you're not making a difference.Mm-hmm.You're, you're not actually pushing the envelope in any way because not everybody's gonna like you if you're pushing things.Well, for me, I think what bothers me the most about it is someone's ability now socially to be able to be a detriment to your life.Mm.Right?They could cancel you.It's like, "I don't like what Charlie said."Yeah."I'm gonna make sure fucking everybodyYou know, he doesn't get that AARP- Yeahcontract or something."You're like, wait, why the fuck are you so demonic- Yeahthat you hope somebody does that bad?Yeah.Like, I think that's worse thanI mean, call, call you what you will, say whatever you want about me, it doesn't matter, but, like, when you start, when you stop somebody from making a living, I think that's when you're, like, a real piece of shit.Yeah, yeah.Um- Well, and, and what you said a moment ago really struck me, um, because really you're talking about the way you treat your people here and all of that, and it's, it's service.I mean, really what you're doing- Yesis service work.Yeah.It's your business.You still get paid to do your business, but how you treat people, and that's why, that's why 12-step recovery and, like, all my years of sobriety, I mean, you're, you're, you're humbled within that framework.Mm-hmm.You know, often.And, you know, the minute you sort of step out of that and get all proud of yourself is usually when you'll, you know, find your face back in the dirt.Mm-hmm.You know, because you're, you're, you're making mistakes.Well, before we get into, you know, a lot of your adventures and then the, um, you know, the book and going to jail, which I definitely wanna hear about, 'cause that's one of my biggest fears in life, um, your first marriage, right?Because this is a topic that comes up a lot.I was just talking to a friend of mine about my event, and he's like, "You know what?If you make it more about dating and make it more about bringing people together so they can mingle and they can meet somebody else"I think there's such an emphasis on people getting married and people- Mmuh, you know, starting a relationship, and you're almost looked at as like you failed or you're a loser if you don't have some sort of relationship.But I think a lot of us, or there's a lot of people out there, I've never been married before, but there's a lot of people who are like feel the social pressure to jump into a relationship, and you're like, you get there, and it's a false sense of success.You're like, "Wait, this is it?This sucks."Men and women.Yeah.And then you're like, "I, I need to get the fuck out of this," which always becomes thisThe worst thing, you ask most people I've met, very successful people, and they're like, "The worst thing I ever went through was my divorce."Mm.You know?And then you find somebody new.Do you feel like you had to go through that first shit situation, and did you feel the social pressure of being like, "Well, I need to get married 'cause that's what people do at 30.""So I need to do it."Yeah.Yeah.Well, actually, it's even, it's even more cliche with me in a way.So I got married the day before my 25th birthday.Okay.And, you know, by that time, from the time I was 19, you know, until the day I got married and then beyond that, you know, I was a hardcore alcoholic and drug addict.Cocaine primarily.So, like, this was myBut I chose, I married someone who we chose each other.She grew up in a family that had alcoholism in it, so she was comfortable, if you can say that- Yeahwith my brand of craziness.And so, you know, we had 5 years of kinda wildness, and she wasn't a wild person, but she drank and whatever.We did our thing for 5 years, and then we s- then we had our first son.And, uh, to cut to the chase, 7 years into having kids, you know, I'm now 7 years sober at that point, and I woke up one morning, like, literally, and I'm like, "Holy shit, like, I don't, I'm not in love with my wife."Like, I married her in the midst of a long-term crisis that I was involved in.Sure.Now I'm 7 years clear-headed, and she helped me.Not only did she stay with me, but she helped me through this incredibly difficult situation.But then comes the question: Do you stay in a place, and even if you have kids and all of that, do you stay in a relationship whereLet's just say there were a lot of things that weren't happening in that relationship, and I knew at, at my age, I, I couldn't go the rest of my life not having a physical relationship with my wife, not having all the things that I wanted.And so I had to go to her and say, "Look, I'm, I love you, and I love you as a mom of my kids, and I'm, I'm so grateful for h- how much you helped me, and I'm definitely gonna take great care of you in this situation," 'cause she'd been the full-time mom.I said, "But I don't wanna be married anymore."The hardest thing I ever did, you know?And, and she was mad, and you know what?Today- She's like, she's married to her college sweetheart, and they have the best life, and I'm invited for holidays, and we hang out, and we still co-parent my kids who are now both in their 30s.But like, you know, I, I think that addiction recovery e- p- people have these, and I've seen many of them, have these really awful, hateful divorces.And what I always remind people is, you know, for you to talk smack, like really bad stuff about this person that clearly at some point, hopefully, you were in love with.Yeah, yeah.Like they were your person, says more about you- Yesthan it does about them.I say that all the time.Yeah.The, a friend of mine went through a 5year divorce, and the shit that his wife was saying about him, he was saying about her, and everything they went through, I'm just like, "Did you ever like each other?"Yeah.Or you can't say you ever loved this person if you feel that strongly- YeahaboutSomebody has to deescalate.Yeah.Somebody has to like say, "Look, I'm just, I'm not gonna"People, because people generally don't argue with themselves.It takes 2 people to continue that, that argument.And nobody's ever gonna be right.Mm-hmm.And so, and then I was divorced for 13 years and, and I didn't, I didn't w- necessarily want or I didn't not want to get married again.But in a gym in Greensboro, North Carolina, you know, in walks Estaciano one day, and I'm working out, and she comes in, and I'm like, "Oh my God."Right."This woman is so out of my league, and I'm still gonna talk to her."No shit.And yeah.And you know, and, and it was, it was amazing.And you know what, though?At, at, at that point in my life though, I was soAnd by the way, I'd just gotten out of prison, like literally just gotten out of prison.This is 2012.Well, good on her.And- I mean- Well, she didn't know that.How long did you keep that a secret?Well, on first date I told her.I laid it all out.I'm like, "This is- No shitwho I am."And she also at that time laid out for me.She said, "Look, you know, and I don't ever, you're not ever allowed to think of me as the sick girl.But I've had cancer a few times in my life.It may happen again.And like, you know, so you need to know what you're stepping into here."Yeah.And, and, uh, but our very first date was, you know, I brought an, this sounds very unromantic, but I brought an iPad, and we spent like 3 hours looking at, um, Google Earth and like visiting places around the world that we had both been.'Cause she's a, she's a wildlife biologist, an ornithologist, which is a bird scientist.So she'd lived in the Amazon jungle, and she'd, you know, we'd done all these, we- That's so coolidentified all these things.And, and like we were married 6 months later, man.I mean, it was like, it was like that.And- How old were you when you got married again?So I was, um, 50.Yeah.How old think she's- 50 years old, and she was 33.Yeah.Yeah.Good for you.Pull a Sir Ian.Yeah, I know, right?I, I know.That's not too, that's not too bad for a 50-year-old, 33.I'll show you a picture too, 'cause that'll- I- You'll really be puzzled when you see a picture of her.Yeah.'Cause you're like, "Really?Like this woman?"So anyway.Whatever.I talk a good game, man.So you've probably seen some really fucking dark moments.Like I've done some endurance races.I did an Ironman years ago.I was on a competitive TV show where we did these long races, and they'd keep us up all night.And there, I remember those moments like they were fucking yesterday, and you're like, "This sucks.I just want this to be fucking over.How much further do I have to go?"You did 24, what was it, 2,600 miles?In the Sahara was 4,600- 4,600if you're counting.Okay, 4,600 miles through the desert.There had to be some moments of like, "What the fuck am I doing?I'm in so much pain."I mean, I've done 1/100 of that distance, and that sucks.Was it harder to go through that or 19 months, or what was it, 18 months in prison?Uh, prison was easy.Really?I'll tell you about that in a minute.But like that was, you know, in comparison- That's my biggest fear in lifedude, in comparison to like addiction, f- darkness is addiction.You know?Or addiction is darkness.Like, there is noYou've been up on a 4day crack binge and drinking, and you haven't slept or eaten, and you're out of drugs and money.Darkness is, like, it's, it's so all-encompassing.I am surprised sometimes that I, that I survived it.Yeah You know?And so, and I do reflect on those moments when I amHere, what I love, and I get so excited, you asked the perfect question because you flip it on its head, and in fact, the whole reason I wanna run 100 miles or whatever, which I've done dozens and dozens of times, or big, long expeditions, is to get to that point where I cannot go any farther- Yeahand then figure it out.You know?And the, the hardest part is, and you know, if you're running the 100 miles, this is the simplest example, and mile 38, like, the wheels come off.Like, you're, you're just like, probably at mile 35, you felt great.And then who the hell knows what happens with the body.At mile 38, you're laying next to the trail like, "Somebody shoot me."Yeah And, and there's the, the first thought that comes to mind, though, is kinda what you just said.Oh my God, I have 62 more miles to go.Like, you're thinking there's absolutely, it's not possible.Yeah, yeah.So the, the, the trick, if there is a trick that I've learned, and it helps me in all of my life, is I know the next checkpoint, like the next aid station, is 4 miles away.I'm not, I'm not worried about the end of the race.I'm like, okay, I just gotta get to that checkpoint, and if I get there, I'm gonna eat 1,000 calories of any shit I can shove into my mouth that tastes good 'cause I just need fuel right now.I'm gonna drink 3 cups of whatever is there.I'm gonna have some salt and electrolytes, and I'm gonna, like, walk out of the aid station, and my pain level's gonna go from a 10 to an 8.But when you're at a 10, an 8 feels like heaven.It feels amazing.Yeah And so, but, but that's exactly what we do, and you've, it sounds like you've als- you're being very humble, but you've done it in endurance events, but I'm sure you've done it in HIIT workouts and in gym stuff where you're on your 130th rep and, like, everybody around you is dying.And you're, you're dying, too, but you find a way to get those 10 extra reps that you wanna get.Yeah You find a way.That is the moment that you carry with you in everything else.You know, we, we hit those hard moments, and sometimes it's a, like let's say it's an argument with your, your, your person, you know, your loved one, that main person in your life, and you have one of those ugly ones where you say all the stuff that you're so sorry that you said and everything else.And we take those moments and the moments we want to quit, and we project them out into the never-ending future.It's always gonna feel this way.But it never does.Like we, all we really have to do in life, in my opinion, we have to get through hard moments.Not hard periods of time, not anything.There's those moments where we just want to say, "Fuck it.I don't want to do this anymore."And sometimes even just saying that internally or even out loud or whatever for just a minute and then sit in your shit for a couple minutes- Yeahand then keep moving, things do get better if you just keep moving.I, I truly believe that, and I encourage people to do hard shit all the time.Yeah I, that's what I read about you.It's like you choose to do hard things because you know life isn't gonna be easy.Yeah And when you start to do more hard things, you start to realize the formula as to how to get out of those hard things.1, time will pass.2, you just keep moving, right?Yeah You have to almost trick yourself into understanding- Mmthat well, there is another checkpoint, and it keeps going on.And life's not gonna stop.The, the world's not gonna stop turning for you, which is a good thing and a bad thing.So it's like if you keep moving, I mean, I've done that 1,001 times.I've put myself in places and in races where I go, "Fuck, this is gonna be so hard."And I just keep doing it.Like, I've done marathons and races where I'm like, my foot hurts so bad.It feels like there's a spider web of pain-rushing through my foot, and you just keep going.Yeah You know?Well, you, you have done enough, and for those who haven't, the thing to always remember is, okay, there's a difference between injury pain and just worn out pain, overuse pain, whatever it might be.And, and sure, it's sometimes we, it's hard to tell the difference.Like our- Yeahbrain says, "Oh my God, do I have a stress fracture?"Or whatever.Yeah One in 100 times it will be that, but most of the time it's not.Yeah And, and the realization, like I've had, blisters are a great example.Like blisters and chafing, like I'm sure you've had it.Blisters and chafing m- might be like the worst things you can ever get.Oh.Like it's all you can think about.Yeah Anytime Well, because it's just a, a central nervous system shock there.Mm, yeah It's like f- Over and over- Yeahand over and over.Doesn't stop But you know rationally and intellectually it's not going to kill you.Yeah, yeah And so finding a way to keep moving with the knowledge of my f- okay, yes, my feet hurt, but like I know I'm gonna survive this, and 5 hours or 5 days from now it'll be over with.So last summer I did a, a jujitsu tournament And when I looked at my bracket, there was like 160 guys in the bracket, and I had just starved myself for like 2 days to make weight.And I get out there, and in the third match, I broke my finger, dislocated my finger.I had already split my lip open, right?It- the guy cracked me right in the mouth.My knee was killing me, and I'm like, "I have another 7 matches to go today."But your body's so resi- I had them like just tape up my fingers.Yeah.And I kept going and going and going.When I got in bed that night, everything just hits.You're like, "Ugh."Yeah.My neck was bothering me, my shoulder.I'm like, "How the fuck?"After that, for like 2 months after, I couldn't really do jujitsu.Mm.1, because of my finger, but like everything was just in so much pain.But was it worth it?Every fucking moment.Exactly, right?Every moment.And I tell people, it's like I would never trade-I was 16 years old, and this is what I kinda hang a lot of what I've ever done in my life on.I was 16 years old.I got dropped on my head.I was in a wrestling match, and I got dropped on my head and it compressed my C3, C4.I'm laying on the mat.My whole right side of my body was numb.Mm.They thought I was paralyzed on my right side.I'm freaking the fuck out.My mom's freaking out.They take me to the hospital.Eventually, I'm like getting function back in my hand and stuff, but like I couldn't raise my arm up.Everything was still in pain.Doctor's like, "Can't wrestle anymore.Can't lift weights.You're done."I'm like, "Yo, no fucking shot."Yeah.No shot.I will rather die- Yeahthan go through life like that.Happened again in college.I got my neck compressed.painful.I couldn't move my hand.Again, I'm like, they're like, "No more lifting.No more running."Couple years later, I'm doing CrossFit.I tore my pec.I tore my shoulder.Yeah.Can't do anything.I'm like, "Listen to me.I've heard this a couple times now.I'm gonna keep doing it.It's your fucking job to get me back out there."Yeah.Help me just get back out there.I'll do what I have to do.And you know, it's, I could name, uh, there's every point in my body, my ankle, my knee, my hand.You know?And I admire people like you because you take it to another fucking level.Like, what, 20, 4,600 miles.It's like, what, how long does that take?So I, I ran across the entire Sahara Desert, and I, I basically ran, I ran 2 marathons every day for 111 consecutive days- So-without a day off.So for all you ultra runners out there, has anybody ever ran further than that?Uh, there is one guy, a friend of mine, Pete, who set a, he, he did this record from Alaska all the way to like Florida.That was probably close.Okay.Maybe a little, and he's a talented guy, but only a few people.But Alaska to Florida-seems like a much more enjoyable- Because- This was 130 degrees every single day in the desert130 degrees.Yeah.Pounding through the sand.Sand is not easy to run on.No.And in fact, it's the worst fucking terrain.For anybody out there who's never ran on sand before.Yeah.It's the absolute worst.I did 13 miles, years ago I did a TV show.It was 13 miles, trekking through the sand with a 100-pound sandbag.And when I tell you- That took a minute.Yeah.Oh, took all fucking day.Yeah, yeah, yeah.And it was brutal.Yeah.And what your back feels like with a sandbag on your back, like a 100-pound sandbag, is absolutely fucking terrible.Yeah.Um, thank God I was like 22 years old when I did it.Yeah.If I did it at 42, it would be a lot different.0 one, is there preparation for that?Because that would take a year- Yeah2 years to prepare for.And like, what is your, what is your fuel sources- Yeahlook like?What is that?Well, and I'm actually gonna even jump ahead just a little bit and give you a snapshot of, the Sahara was, you know, it's been a while, over 15 years.This next project of mine, which will take me from the Dead Sea to the top of Mount Everest.So the lowest point in Earth to the highest point.To the highest.I'm now 63 instead of in my mid-40s.I was your age.And I was so, hopefully you're smarter than I am.Um, although the stories you're telling me, I'm not, we may have a lot in common.But, but like, I was so over trained for the Sahara.I, I was so, I was stressed because, you know, e- even before we came out here, you know, you were, I could hear you were having a couple of business calls, and this and that, and I kn- I understand and feel mine is different than yours.But, like, doing an expedition is nothing more than do- launching a business.Mm-hmm.You, you build a plan.You come up with a bad idea first.Yeah.Then you build the plan around it.You've had a lot of those.Right.And then you try to execute, and like, it's, it'sAnd now I'm still, like right now I'm 7 months away from this next one, so it's, it's fundraising, it's getting sponsor support.It's all the different things that I'm doing.And oh yeah, I kinda need to train for this.Mm-hmm.Um, but the good news is this time, like I've recognizedUh, go back to what we were talking about with everything from biohacking and other wellness hacks.Like, my main role, and, and you said this a little while ago too about getting blood work, uh, at the very beginning of this podcast.Like, blood work is so important.I get blood work every 3 months.My main thing is to show up healthy.Mm-hmm.Not even, I don't need to be super fit.My expedition's gonna take me 5 months.Like, so I don't need to run an Ironman on day one.I need to be healthy in that first week so that I can ramp up my mileage.And sure, I'll be, you know, I'll be well-trained, and my, at my age, I'm way more interested now in muscle than I am in anything else, 'cause I know how much muscle I'm gonna lose- Mm-hmmand how hard it's gonna be to keep it on when I'm coveringYou know, I'm gonna be running and biking, but I'm, I'm gonna be going over 100 miles a day, you know, total, for a lot of months.Yeah.It'sAnd it's gonna be hard.But the Sahara, I, Matt Damon was my partner.Matt Damon, the- Yeah.So he was the executive producer of the project.Hey, shit.He was the narrator of the film called Running the Sahara.You can still get it on Apple TV.I don't get anything from it, but it's still a great movie.How'd you link up with him?Um, you know what?'Cause I'm full of shit, man.I, I know how to get to people, right?No.And I'm, I was the, a senior producer on a TV show called Extreme Makeover Home Edition.Okay.For many years, if you remember that show.Yeah, of course.Move that bus.Yeah.Right?And so long story how I got on there, which I won't bore you with now.The, I brought you a book, and it is in the book, so, um, but you know, basically I ended up as a producer for a few years.And another guy, uh, this is back in the, you know, MTV Road Rules days.I had a good friend of mine who- That's the show I was on.Oh, was it really?I was on The Challenge.Oh.Yeah.Well, there's a guy named Tim Begbie.Ti- that's my boy.Dude, well, Tim and I- What?Tim and I- How do you know Tim Begbie?Oh, that's so funny.Oh, no.The, Tim Begbie is responsible for introducing me to a guy named James Moll.Okay.And James was a director, and James had won the Academy Award the year before for the best documentary.And Tim set me up with him, and I showed up and I had a meeting with James Moll.And let's call him, oh my God.I, let me tell you something.He was probably one of my favorite fucking people I've ever met.Oh, he's, he's the best.He is one of the- He's the best.Come on, Timfunniest fucking guys.I haven't talked to him in, like, 3 years.Oh, man.I hope he picks up.I heard from him pretty recently.You gotta tell him to call you back if he doesn't answer.Uh, that's too funny.What's he doing now?He's still producing stuff and doing TV and got- He's-lots of different projects.YeahI, I love him.Yeah, yeah.I love him.He's, like, such a good guy.Yeah.Well, that's just it.You and I talked about, uhI mean, well, well, actually we weren't talking about this, but briefly, we makeI hope I'm a person that makes introductions for people without- That's itlike- Expecting anything in returnexpecting anything out of it.And Tim did that for me.Yeah.Introduced me to James.James calls me a week later and says, "Hey, I told you we need a production partner.I just hung up with Matt Damon.Like- That's greathe wants to produce this project.Is that okay with you?"Which I still laugh about.And I, I, I am a, I think I'm funny, my wife says.And so, you know, I of course said, "Look, I was really hoping for somebody better, but yeah, if Matt Damon wants to do this, then fine."And, like, Hans Zimmer ends up doing the score for the film, and- No shit.Yeah.But like, but here's the funny part.You know, I have 3 Academy Award winners attached to a project about me running across deep sand.Like, super riveting stuff.And- Still, I mean- But, uh, but, uh, the, the guy- With Hans Zimmer writing the music and- It's crazyMatt Damon writing the story.Look, look, Pearl Jam, Eddie Vedder gave us music.Um, Wyclef wrote an original song.Like, all kinds of cool stuff happened.That's sick.And it was a- How the fuckDid this win any awards or anything?It, well, awards- Did it go to any film festivals?in filmmaking, as you probably know- Yeahare really complicated.Sure.You have to time things in a way that you go to festivals.Sure.We, we did premiere at the Toronto Film Festival, but we were not entered into categories.And when you see the film, you'll, you'll see it's a hard one to categorize.I mean, it's, first of all, watching a guy, and I had 2, 2 fellow runners.So there were 3 of us, so we had a dynamic there, butAnd I yelled at people a lot.But, like, watching 3 guys run across sand is, there needs to be a lot more to the- Sure, but I think-story pieceI think, yeah, I think the storytelling needs to be on point.Yeah.And it was.Did you watch the one with Chris Hemsworth?Oh, yeah.Sure.Yeah.I thought that was- Yeah, I thought it was great.I thought it was very well done.And the, the points of him, like, going through the cold water and stuff, I think putting people in the moment of, like, what this is gonna feel like, howBecause the actual scenes of him in the water, he was in the f- water for 3 minutes.Yeah.But they stretch that out a whole episode.Yeah.So when you think about it, it's like, yeah, the storytelling needs to be, like- Yeahthe main point.Well- And I, I feel like Matt Damon has told a couple good stories.Yeah, he was great.And he was such a nice guy, and, like, I've, I still have a little interaction with him here and there.But, like, um, out of that too, we co-founded something called H2O Africa back in the day, and- Yeahtoday I actually work with Charity Water, which is really- I saw that.Yeahyeah, one of the world's largest clean water nonprofits.Uh, a New Yorker, Scott Harrison, founded Charity Water about 20 years ago, and he was a crazy guy and kinda got his act together and realized he needed to be, you know, of service and do things differently.And, and I, and I think theseAnd again, I wasn't eavesdropping, but I could overhear your conversation a little while ago, and I think there's always this, this dance between doing what we're passionate about, the thing we love to do, but also translate that into service- Surelike we were saying.And you, because you can do, you can be selfish and selfless- Yeahat the exact same time- Yeah, yeahdoing the same thing.I think it's, I think it's the duality of what we're all meant to do.Yeah.For me, I think if I get myself to the best version of me, if I can make the most money and be the most capable and be the most valuable to myself- Mmthen I can help so many other people, like my camera guy, right?My staff.If I could figure out how to make more money, I can make their lives easier.Yeah, totally.You could only have a certain amount of money.Like, again, I see so much wealth in the city.I don't have anyI'm not, like, a jewelry guy.Yeah.I never was.I'm not, like, a fucking designer clothes guy.Mm-hmm.I never was.I wanna be able to help more people.I wanna see more people happy, you know.Obviously, there needs to, there's a give and take.It's like, help me doEven today, we had a call with a guy, and he's like, "Yo, I'm really excited about this project."I go, "Buddy, you nail this fucking project for us, I'll pay you whatever the fuck you want.I don't give a-" Yeah.The money's not even important.Yeah, yeah.Like, I want this to be really good.I want people to have a great time.I want people, like, feel like they're a part of something.Yeah.Fuck the money.Yeah.Like, the money comes and goes.Yeah.You know, I've lost money, I've won money.At the end of the day, money just makes things easier.Yeah.I use it like any other tool.It's like, do I need fucking 6 bars here?No, but having extra bars here makes my job easier.Yeah, yeah.Yeah.So.Well, you wanna hear about loss of money?I'll tell you about prison real quick.Well, I wanna do about, like- Real quick, before we go into prison.Yeah.What I always ask people who s- suffer with addiction is, you know, I had a buddy of mine here.Do you know Zach Clark?Very well.All right.I'm gonna see him tomorrow morning.Okay, great.'Cause I was gonna say, if you don't know him, you need to know him.Yeah, yeah, yeah.No, he's- I love himhe's awesome.He's one of my clients.Yeah, okay.Yeah.Great kid.Yeah.And obviously had dinner with him a bunch of times.Yeah.And friends of his and everything, and a couple other people who've been on the show.And what I always say is, I go, y- we've all grown up in this era.You're a little bit older than me, but, like, drugs are bad.Yeah.Don't do this.Don't do that.Yeah.How in the fuck does somebody offer you crack?Yeah.And you're like, "All right, I'll try it."Yeah.This isn't gonna go fucking left.Yeah.You wanna know how it happened for me?Yeah.I'll tell you the specific way it happened.I had been struggling withHuh, I say struggling with.That makes it sound like I tried to quit.I'd been doing a lot of cocaine for years.I had a business, which it doesn't matter in the story, but, like, uh, yeah, I traveled a lot.Sure.But I, so I knew how to go to every city, go to the, go to a good bar, walk into a bartender and say, you know, "What do you do for fun in this town?"And, and the bartender will say, "Go here and here and here, and here's this great place, but whatever you do, don't go down to," you know, if you're in Denver, "Don't go down to Colfax Avenue."Right?And I'm like, "Okay, just so I'm clear, where is that?""And just so I can stay away from it."Yeah.And so I'm in Denver, and, uh, this is in the '90s, uh, early '90s, and, and, uh, I'm just on a norm- normal, if there is such a thing, drinking binge, and I decide that I'm gonna go seek out some dope.And I go to Colfax, where I was told not to go, and first person I basically roll up to, I, I knew who they were.Like, I, you just- You know who this isyou know.You can walk out here, and I can still tell you- Yeswho you can buy from, right?I've never actually bought dope before- Dudebut I could go outside.33 years later, I could- Yeahidentify that person in 5 minutes.I could tell you who's dealing.No doubt, no doubt.So anyway, I get this person, and it's a woman, and like she stepped, she got in the car for a moment, and we talked, and I told her what I wanted, whatever.And you know, and I wasPeople, I think, saw me as a mark, so, uh, I was more savvy than they typically knew.But I gave her whatever, 100 bucks or something, and she came back 10 minutes later, and she hands me this little thing.And, and I open it up, and there's like 5 rocks in it, and I'm like, "What is this?"She's like, "I couldn't find any powder, but I got this for you."And you know, I was already, I was already drunk at that point.I was already kind of on my way, and I was never gonna be one of those people, though.You know.Yeah, yeah, yeah.I'm a cocaine addict, damn it.Like, I'm highbrow.Yeah.Well, no, but I, I have friends, I used to live with a dude who was a, a cokehead.Yeah.Like, in the morning, 6:00, 7:00 AM- Yeahhe's ripping lines to go to work.He's like, "Dude, I'd never do dope.I, I'd-" Yeah, "I'd never do crack.I'd never do heroin."Yeah.Right.And I'm like, "What the fuck is the difference?"Right.There's none.Yeah.And so, and I, you know, in that moment, I had that first hit, and that lighter sparked, and I took that hit, and you know, my world changed.Every- For a few, for a few years, my world changed.Like, and it, it isThere, I don't know how to, I don't know how to say it other than it is the most insidious thing I've ever put in my body, and there's no, there's no way to call that off.There's no way to forget the smell.33 years later, if I walk down the street and I happen to- Sniffcatch a whiff of it or something like that- Oh, shitit's just this weird, innocuous, you know, kind of smell.And, and like it, it, it just, it does physiologically what it's meant to do.It, it lights you up in a way that is fleeting.I mean, that's the issue.It's inexpensive.You know, on average you could say a, a hit, if you will, lasts, you know, 10 or 15 minutes if you're lucky, and then you better be ready for the next one, 'cause there's nowhere to go but down.Yeah.And so it's that, it's that constant trying to stay right here, and looking at what you've got left in your stash so that you can make sure that you're out the door to get more before you're done with this.Like it'sAnd that's, that's why I always say, it's actually, that kind of addiction and problem-solving is, is actually a superpower.Like, if you can stop doing that and point that same obsessive energy, I mean, you're not, I, I'm, I'm assuming addiction hasn't been your issue.But I don't, we don't even know each other well, but like you're an obsessed person.When you put your mind to what you're gonna do- Yeahyou're gonna get that shit done.Yeah.And that, that is a, it's a form of obsession that a lot of people just don't have it, and I feel bad for them.Yeah, yeah.I'm glad they don't have it, because I get to do the business and they don't.I agree.I think there's a lot of people who are okay with like working a 9:00 to 5:00, going to fucking happy hour, you know, doing a bullshit fucking Pilates class or something, and then going home.And I'm like, for real- Yeah.To what?Anytime somebody's like, "Do you wanna go to like the Cayman Islands?"I'm like, "No.For f- Rightunless we're like running there- Yesyou know, or like we're- Or hiking or somethingyeah, doing something active.Yeah, yeah.Fuck, I have 0We talk about it all, all the time.She's like, "I just wanna go to a beach and read a book," and I'm like, "I'd blow my fucking brains out."Yeah, yeah.That sounds miserable to me.Yeah.For me- YeahI need something to do.Yeah.Like, I'll go to Las Vegas and go do a competition.Yeah.I'll go to fucking Florida and run aYou know, I was talking to a buddy of mine about doing this 92-mile race.I'm like, "That sounds like fun.I'll do that."Yeah, yeah.But like just to go down there and sit on the fucking beach- Yeahit's, that's more, that sounds like more torture than running- Way more92 miles.Way more.So tell me about, so fast-forward.Yeah.Jail time.So Running the Sahara happened, and I did this run across the United States a couple years later.This is back in '08.And, um, and I'm just out running errands, man, in 2009.I'm, I'm, it's late in that year, and I'm in Greensboro, North Carolina, and, uh, I got groceries, and I get out of my car at my condo, and I, I walk into the parking lot, and like 6 armed federal agents, you know, come out of my building, the coffee shop in my building, and they arrest me.And this is, this couldn't have been more out of the blue.And they, I'm in the back of a police car, and I go downtown, and I sit there all night.They didn't tell you anything?No.No, nothing.And- You weren't like, "Wait, guys, what are we doing here?"Right.Well, of course, but I mean, you know.They don't say shit.You know, nobody's gonna say anything in that case.So I sit there all night.The next morning I get a stack of papers, and, um, and it's a federal indictment.And in, in short, just to keep this a short story, um, I become the only person in the United States at this point to be charged with overstating my income on a home loan application.Wait, hold on.Federal agents came to your fucking house- Yeah, and this is, this loan that I had was from 2005, and we all know, you know, if you're, you're old enough to understand the implications of that time period- Surefrom like '01 to '07 or '08.Like, the country fell apart with this mortgage crisis.Yeah, yeah, yeah.And the IRS agent in my case had, um, gone to see the film, Running the Sahara, and instead of being impressed with all that I'd accomplished, he literally opened an investigation into my taxes right after that.Ultimately, I pay my taxes.Like, there's a memo in my file that says, "Mr.Engle pays his taxes."But instead of letting it go, they just kept coming and kept coming, and they found this one loan and went back to the bank.And I'm, I'm gonna, again, I'm gonna truncate the story.I go to trial because, you know, I'm not gonna admit to something that I hadn't done.Like, no matter what the cost.I'm being threatened with 20 years in federal prison.Yeah.Seriously.Well, so just so people out there understand, because most people are fucking retarded and they don't understand how the law works, because I got canceled years ago and it was never a criminal thing.Everybody's like, "You deserve to be in jail."And it was like a civil bullshit case.They just wanted money out of it.So for people who don't understand, the only crime you commit in this country that you're guilty until proven innocent is tax evasion.Yeah.So anything involving- Yeahyour taxes, you are guilty.Totally.If I kill everybody in this room right now with a dull knife, the cops walk in here, I have the knife in my hand covered in blood, I'm still innocent until somebody proves me guilty.Yeah Which is so fucked up about the law.It is.And people don't get that.It's like, "Oh, this is bad and that's bad."I go, the system's fucked.Yeah Because the only crime you commit, or even don't commit, that is looked at worse than anything else is trying to rip the government off of money.Which is crazy.Which is crazy.Crazy.It is crazy.So the- So I go to trial, and during the trial, uh, I mean, a lot happened, but during the trial, the mortgage broker in my case is on the stand.And on cross-examination, he admits to falsifying a loan application in my name.He filled it out and he signed my name to it.And like, I never knew that.And so, you know, you would think, like, that's the end of that.Yeah.And instead, again, to not bury the lead here, I end up being convicted of mail fraud because the closing package was sent to me in the mail.Who the fuck was your attorney?Well, unfortunately, to get a- A shit onewhite collar attorney in this country, I mean, you, you probably have some concept, but you know what it would cost to get a good white collar attorney to even talk to you?25.500 grand.Oh, no.No.100%.500- You will not find a credible white collar attorney for less than 500k retainer, promise you.What?Swear to God.I even talked to, back in the day, I don't wanna give him any press, but like Mark Geragos, if you remember that name.Like, I had all kinds of people I was talking to and trying to get some high-powered attorneys to jump on board.But the fact of the matter is, you know, my timing was bad as much as anything.I had a fairly high profile because of Running the Sahara.I can't believe this fucking asshole- Yeahworked for the IRS.Yeah, yeah.Wow.Yeah.I mean, he wasHe's a piece of work.What a piece of shit.And he had a history of going after people like me.Sure.He was quite diminutive in stature, and I've always felt like- A short, fat, ugly fuckeryeah, all those things.Typical.And so, and I kinda just felt like he probably- Yeahum, you know, like I'm the guy who flushed his head in the toilet in junior high school- Yeah, yeah, yeahor something like that.I make that joke all the time.Yeah?And you can ask Christy.I always say, I go, there are those people, they either become fucking cops, right?And they make sure- Or IRS agentsor IRS a- UghI dealt with an IRS agent.So back in 2007, I got audited.2008.Yeah.So we'reI got audited, and I was like, it was the worst.I would rather owe money to the fucking Yakuza- Yeahthe f-the Italian mafia- Yeahuh, a fucking Mexican cartel.Mm-hmm.Because at least they'll be like, "Hey, we're gonna jack this up.Just pay it off and-" Yeah.The IRS is fucking horrible.Yeah.And the fact that this guy can hunt you down-after watching your fucking movie.Yeah, yeah.It's crazy.Yeah, so- So now you couldn't get an attorney.No.Well, so I end up with a public defender, and then I end, I, I do end up with- Guy's suit's all wrinkled and he's got shoesI end up with a family friend, let's just put it that way, who was a good attorney.I mean, I shouldn't be hard on him, and it's not his fault.You know, theLook, I had- One for 18 fucking months- But I had-he's a shit attorneywell, I had enough notoriety to be interesting, but not enough money to defend myself.I was like, I was the perfect target, right?And so- I have the same story.Yeah, and I mean, and at that point, 2009 and '10, like, the country is looking in particular, this was Obama administration, which, you know, I'm, I don't mind talking slight politics, but I'm a, I'm a liberal guy.So I mean, I'm, I'm more likely to vote on the liberal side.Sure.And, uh, and I did vote for him at that point, but his attorney general, Eric Holder, basically made it his mission to find somebody, people to blame for the mortgage crisis that happened.And so, of course, that didn't include any bankers or lawyers or- Sure, suregovernment people who were actually the ones- Who fucking fucked us allfull- fully responsible for all of that.Yeah, yeah.But instead, they come after a couple little peons like me.So I get 18 months in federal prison in Beckley- What did you actually owe?West Virginia.How much did you actually owe?$262,000.Could you imagine?Uh, yeah.But here's my thing.Now, I don't care what side of politics you're on or whatever it is, when you hear about the gross amounts of money that get lost in Minnesota, New York- Oh, yeahall over the country.Yeah.LA.That fraud.Sure.Billions of dollars.Yeah, yeah.Billions of dollars is lost, and here they are using every resource they could, the federal fucking government- Yeahthe FBI, they're all coming after you for 250 grand.Yeah.Well, I- 250 grand- Dude, I've been making-is lost every 5 fucking minutesI've been making jokes lately that I should probably, now's probably the time I should ask for a pardon.Probably.Because I'll probably get it.I'll tell you what, I'm actually trying to get a guy on here- Yeahwho was involved in Hunter Biden shit.You can look him up.Yeah.He was invo- involved in the Hunter Biden stuff-and he, you know, got a bad rap during the Biden administration.Trump got into office.Somehow he met Trump.Trump pardoned him.Yeah.Yeah.I've got some weird connections, and I, I have- YeahI, I, uhLook, this sounds crazy, but, like, prison allowed meYou know, my, my time in prison interestingly was cathartic.I mean, I immediatelyYou talk about cancellation.I mean, I lost a million dollars in speaking gigs.I lost every sponsor- Oh my Godbrand.I was booted off the board of my own nonprofit, and this all happened, like, 2 days after I was arrested, to your point.Not convicted.Oh, yeah, it happens.Like, the second- Yeah, yeahthe second it happened- There is-I was gonethere has been no evidence or anything regarding my shit.All it is is he said, she said- Yeahbullshit alarm.I was doing charity work, I don't even wanna say for the charity, for months.Going to events, donating time, raising money, and some asshole who was a part of the fucking charity- Yeahwas like, she told the lady who hired me, she's like, "We can't have him a part of this because he's got this blemish on his record."And my-- I go, "There's no"thank God there are so many people over the last 10, 12 years of my life who have gone to bat for me- Mm.Yeahand, you know, backed me up on this shit.But the amo- no matter what you do, there's gonna be people who, like, w- whether it's true or not- Yeahin their mind, they can't get it out of their head- Yeahthat you're a piece of shit.Yeah.So here you are, you didn't even actually fucking do anything.Yeah.You served 18 months in federal prison.Yeah.My biggest fear in life is having to go to prison, and I think it's most people.That's why it- Yeahmake it so terrible.Yeah.You walk in there.Take us through day one walking through the fucking gates.Well, I was- Federal prison's way better than state prison.Absolutely.Absolutely.And I, I mean, look, and I wasYou know, my 10 years of pretty hardcore addiction and a lot of years of sobriety sort of prepared me-for this, what I was gonna face.Yeah.So I was, I was a l- I was a little scared.I was, you know, sad, 'cause I mean, my teenage sons drive me to prison, drop me off at the front gate in West Virginia.But what I really was was pissed off.You know, I was, at that moment, I was angry at what had been done to me, 'cause that's how I viewed it.Sure.And to be honest, it took, like, 2 days to change perspective, and that came through- So a lot of time alone.W- well, not only that.Like, the f- you know, I'm, my cellmate, you know, the first guy that I shared a cell with, you know, he's a 60, early 60s Black man who got, like, 20 years for a single gram of crack cocaine.Like, he had 2 prior convictions that were, like, shoplifting, and this was his third strike.Oh, shit.And so here I am sharing a cell with a guy who I had that amount of drugs in my pocket 1,000 times.Like, all the time.All the time, man.For 10 years.It's fucked.And yet, you know, his inability to have any legal representation at all.And so I, I think a lot of life is about, of course, it's about- Sureperspective, right?And we, sometimes we need to look at a situation with more, um, you know, generosity and understanding for, for other people's place.And I, and, but what that really taught me in that moment, in that exact moment, was this experience for 18 months, it was gonna be what I make it.And, and even under this terrible circumstance, my happiness was still 100% up to me, and not up to anybody else.No matter how many people could make me miserable.You know, of course my reputation, whatever that is, was, um, you know, a mess, 'cause anybody who ever thought I was an asshole, when that happened to me, it was like, "See?I told you."You know?So I mean, it gives people- Yeahan excuse, and fine.It also taught me that same lesson that, uh, I think we talked about this a little earlier, but I say it all the time, is like nobody's thinking about me, not really.For 5 minutes they're thinking about me and what happened, "Oh, did you see what happened?"Then they're like back to themselves.Mm-hmm.'Cause that's how we all are.And i- so it gave me the gift of time.I, I, I read 150 books in prison.That's what I was gonna say.That, that- I, I wrote, I journaled every day, and I ran every single day in prison.And- Is that when you started your book, too?It is.Yeah.And, and, but the most important thing that I did in there was, you know, my very first sponsor in AA a lifetime ago, you know, taught me this one simple saying, and AA is filled with cliches, but most of them are relevant.To keep it, you have to give it away.And I think, I think you live that philosophy, too.Like we, whatever your gift is, this thing, whether it's coaching, or dancing, or singing, or instruments, or, you know, in my case running in that place, you know, if you're not at some pointUh, you can't give it away all the time, but if you're not helping other people without an expectation of ROI-what are you doing on this planet?I say that all the time.One of the first things I ever said at the first event we threw was, I go, "We all have a gift.It may take us a lifetime to find out what that gift is, but when you figure out what your gift is, it's your job now to share that with as many people as possible."Yeah, yeah.And I think that's so important.Like, I'm ob- It's everythingI'm obsessed with fitness, and lifestyle, and wellness, and all this shit, and I go, it's my job.'Cause I didn't realize the impact that has to be around somebody like yourself, somebody who's inspiring, somebody who gets people going, somebody who's fun to be around.You breathe life.You, you put the lights on in a dark room and help everybody see.And I didn't realize that till about 6, 7 months ago.I was around a guy, I was with this guy who's out of shape and overweight, and he goes, "You give me hope."Mm."Just being friends with you."Yeah, yeah.He's like, "I see how you are."And it's like, it's just my normal day-to-day.Yeah.I get up, and I wanna work out, and I wanna fucking push people, and I wanna build gyms, and I wanna do all this shit.Yeah.And people get fired up to be around that.But I go, no, IIt's this fucking fire inside me.I'm like, "I gotta do it."I'll spend all my money on it.I'll do whatever I have to do.I go, "It, I can't sleep until I do."Yeah.Well, let me just say, though, it's, because y- I know you already know this, but it's attraction over promotion.It's this, and I talk about this all the time in addiction recovery.It's because your words don't mean anything if they're not backed up by your actions.Yeah.So if other people get a chance to witness you, and you allow them to see you working hard, probably failing sometimes, like being a, a human instead of being perfect all the time.Like, they get to witness that, and they're fired up.Like that, that motivates people.Sure.So you're, it's attraction, whereas if all ofAnd so many people, they just spend their whole lives talking about how amazing what they're doing is.So in prison, I just ran.Other people wanted to run with me because my life was better than theirs.Where would you run?There was a little quarter mile, I call it a goat path, in Beckley, West Virginia.And I mean, this prison was on top of a blown-off mountain that used to be a coal, uh, plant, you know?And, and there was a l- in the recreation yard you'd run around the softball field and the basketball court, and it was- What's the furthest you ranI, well, so I ranWhat's funny is I ran Badwater when, while I was there.So the same day that Badwater happens in Death Valley, I actually ran, over a course of 2 days, 135 miles around, illegally around the prison track.How many guys were with you?Nobody.And they let you do it?But, well, did they let me, or did II mean, I worked it out.I worked it out.I had a job, so I would have to put on my greens, my uni- and I'd have to go into the rec room and, like, clean the pool table and do my job, then I'd come back out.And so for 2 days, I ran 135 miles, and even the guards, on the second day I was about 100 miles in and a guard comes up on his, you know, little scooter, and he's like, "Heard about what you're doing."I'm like, oh boy, here it comes.Like, here we go.He's gonna stop me.'Cause, like, in the regulations you weren't allowed to run more than 3 miles at one time.I don't know, whatever.And, uh, and he actually said, you know, "Good luck."And he drove off.No shit.And, you know, and I mean, I had to be, I had 5 count times every day.So 5 times during the day, you know, you have to be in your cell next to your bed, like, for count.Sure.And, you know, so, and of course I had to go to, you know, you don't get to stay out all night, so 10:00 at night I had to be, you know, in my cell.And, but dude, there were times where we're in lockdown for weeks at a time, so I'm running for 5 or 6 hours at a time in place, in my cell.Big pool of sweat.It's a great strategy, though, for a middle-aged white guy- Hold onin prison.I was gonna say, were you- 'Cause people just think you're nuts.Yeah, I believe it.Yeah.So what, were you running from wall to wall or just standing in place?Yeah, no, just like, I'm just, like, running in place.Jesus Christ.Just going like that.Yeah, you are fucking nuts.Bouncing around.But I mean, what are you gonna do?Yeah.Like, that's your choice.I could do dips and I could do, I could run in place.Yeah.Um- And then just doing pushups and dips- Yeahand shit like that.Yeah.So- So what was, did you bulk up at all?Were you- I did.I could do, you know, at that point I could do, you know, I could probably bang out, you know, 50 pull-ups and, you know, I could do some things just 'cause what else are you gonna do?How old were you?So I was, um, f- late 40s, so 48, 49.Yeah.Right there.So then what happens?You, in the 18 months you didn't get, come up for parole at all or anything?There's no such thing as parole in the federal system.You are going to do your sentence.And like, so for me, I got a 21-month sentence.You do get a 15%, I jokingly say it's a 15% discount upfront for presumed good behavior, and you can lose that if you screw up.Okay.Whatever that means in there.Sure.Um, I mean, this was, look, there were some violent people in there, but it was a minimum security prison, which meant that most of the guys in there had earned their way there from higher security prisons.And if you were even to get into a fight or something like that, you're, you're going back to the- So everybody's at their best behaviorto the big boy prison.Yeah.So even the, even the worst people in there-you know, there were probably- You're like the highest100 guys.Yeah.I mean, the worst part, the worst part about prison was not being able to hug my kids and, um, and just- So there's nobody trying to fucking ass rape you?Not really.And I also did the things that you are supposed to do.You know, I didn't take any shit from anybody early on, and I, I did a couple of things that, you know, you kinda have to do to the bully that, that tests out whether or not you're gonna be an easy mark.Sure.And, you know, once you do that, you, you do kind of end up being- Is that, like, a fight or stabbing someone?A fight, a little p- no stabbing or anything like that, but a couple of punches and aWeirdly, I won a 3point shooting contest on the basketball court.'Cause I mean, I played a lot of basketball in my life- Sureand I was a good player and a good shooter.Yeah.And it, a, a, a 6foottall white guy in prison was not the most likely person to win.Sure.Matter of fact, it's a funny story.I'll keep it super brief.A g- great friend of mine, Big Mo, 'cause there's always somebody named Big Mo in prison, and, and, like, he's African American and bald and about 6'8" and, like, he's a, he's a beast, and he's actually the head of the rec yard.Of course.It's my first weekend in prison and, like, they have, like, a 3point contest and free throw shooting contest and, and then a game.And so there's about 50 guys entered in the 3point contest, so it takes forever, and, like, I'm last.I'm literally last.And the, you shot 10 3pointers, and the guy who's winning, you know, had shot, like, 7 3pointers.And I step up and I basically, I nail the first 8 3pointers.No shit.Like boom, boom, boom.I hit, I hit the first 8.I end up missing, you know, the last 2, but it didn't matter.Pressure was off.And Big Mo comes up to me.He's like, "That's some good shooting, Engel.I would advise you not to win the free throw shooting contest."Because you got, like- Goodyou got, I got like 3 packets of powder Gatorade, and I mean, it might as well have been in there.Yeah, it's gold.'Cause you can't buy that stuff.It's like gold.So it was a funny, you know, and again, I, I just, I don't know.I think you, all my years on the, you know, on the street buying dope and doing the crazy stuff that I did, I mean, it made meA- and we don't have time to talk about the emotional piece, but, you know, there's a part of me and my drug history and all the things that I'd been through that felt like I deserved this.I mean, that's a whole nother story, and I, I reflect on that in the book some.Yeah, yeah, yeah.You know, because anytime- I get what you're saying.Yeah.I mean, if you kinda grow up with this, this chip on your shoulder, which I did a little bit, and wanting to prove things, and then something happens, well, then you are kinda hearing those voices from the people who said you're never gonna amount to anything- Yeah, yeahor whatever it is.And-do you think that that rehabilitation processSorry, I don't mean to laugh at the word.Yeah.But- I mean- Yeah.It's not even their mission anymore.It's not.They took the word out.The, the rehabilitation doesn't even exist.It's just- Correctionscorrections.Which is a different- Yeahthing.You know?It'sAnyway, finish your question.No, I mean, is that, likeW- what's the point anymore?No.Like, because listen, I'mEverybody always is like, "Oh, you're MAGA, you're MAGA."I'm like, "No, no, no."Listen, I'm a blue collar dude from New Jersey who I wanna believe that if I work my ass off that I could live a better life.Yeah.I just wanna live the American dream.Yeah,Do I think somebody needs billions of dollars?No, I'm very liberal on that topic.Yeah.Do I think somebody needs to be fucking taken care of and live off the government and the rest of us getOr they say they're giving it to these people when they're actually not- Yeahand we're getting taxed out of our eyeballs?Yeah, yeah.No, I'm very- Yeah, yeahyou know, right when it comes to that.So my thing is, it's like, all right, we're spending all this money throwing people in prison.It's like, what is the point?Because it's another excuse to take more money.Like here in the city, they're like, "Oh, we need money for this.We need money for that.We need money for this.We need m-" And I'm like, "Wait, but it's not going to any of these things."Mm-mm.You're not rehabilitating people in jail.Mm-mm.You're not giving it to people so they- Mm-mmclean up their act on the street.No.I mean, it, it- It's- Every politician leaves office and they're worth more than they were before they got in.Definitely.You know?So- Well, and we, and weLook, there's a famous, there was a famous, uh, senator in Virginia years ago, uh, Jim Webb, who said, you know, "We need to stop, uh, using prisons to, umWe need to keep using prisons to lock up people that we're afraid of and not just people that we're mad at."Yeah, yeah.And when prison sort of became a business, you know- That's-years back.Yeah.You know, it, it'sWhen you incentivize people to put more peopleI mean, the weird thing is it was kind of a Republican thing, and then, like, Bill Clinton comes along and he's like, "Okay, well, if we're doing this."And so, like, prison populations went up, like, 3 or fourfold when he was in office.Like, he's like, "Let's make money at this if we're gonna do it."I don't know what the answer is, but the answer is definitely not locking up more people.You know, the answerOr if you're gonna lock them up, then being in prison is the punishment, so use the time to help them improve themselves.That's my point.Yeah.So- People get upset, like, "Oh, he got a college degree in prison.I had to pay for mine."I'm like, wait, who would you rather have as your neighbor-when this guy gets out?'Cause he- 98% of the people in prison are getting out.Yeah, yeah.Like, who do you want as your neighbor?Yeah.The guy who took the incentive to actually get a college degree- Yes, exactlywhile he's in prison and turn his life around?100%.Or some guy who gets out angry and just wants to stab you.Like I said, I mean, I've had multiple people who, who've gone to jail and have come out better people.Yeah.Like, I know- Yeaha bunch of guys who were like- Yeahthey were like, "It was so fucking bad, I just had to do what I needed to do- Yeahto get better."Um, so you got this race coming up, right?Yeah.charity: water is, um- Their partner.They're a, they're aI mean, really, I am a, an ambassador for charity: water as much as anything.Yeah.Because, you know, look, it's a great way to finish this.Like, I don't think there's anyWhether it's politics or anything else, I've yet to ever hear anybody say the words, like, "Oh, that person doesn't deserve a clean drink of water."Yeah.Like, everybody on the planet- YeahI think we can agree- Sureshould have the right to access to clean water, and so it's sort of a non-political issue.And I have a big event coming up, actually, in fact, in DC in, uh, in just a week or so.And, you know, and a lotThat's why I collect a lot of those high net worth people is so that I can invite them to events and, and, you know, see if they wanna help support something.But, but make no mistake, this next expedition is the same as all of them.My true goal, I don't care if anybody's watching, I don'tWhatever.It's great if people wanna follow along, and some people are actually gonna come out.You might get sucked into this and- Absolutelyspend some time and bike and run with me- Yeahand do that kind of stuff.Please.But ultimately, my goal is to see if I can do it.You know what I mean?That'sWhen it comes down to it, I wanna do all the other good things.Mm.But back to the thing we said earlier, like, you, you do selfish things, but that selfishness allows me the space to then come back home and take care of my wife and to provide forI mean, my kids are adults, but, like, to, to do the things in society that I wanna do.Yeah.And always remember, you know, and you've alluded to it, and I know youLook at, I look at who you are today and what you've built.If you don't own your own narrative, somebody else will.Yeah.And so tell your story.And- It's, it's so true.It's like y- you can't allow other people to tell other people what your life's gonna be.You have- Totally.Yeah.100%.Well, I'm excited to see how this all goes.Yeah.I'd love to come check it out.Where can everybody find you?Where could everybody- Yeahabout the book, supporting the, uh, the new adventure.Yeah, yeah.Everything.I'm gonna g- I'm gonna get your team the, some stuff for the show notes- Okayso that they'll have all that.But my, I'm launching this Substack and payer, paid subscription model.Sure.But everything is pretty much just my name.There's charlieangle.com.There's my website.Uh, that's my website, and then Instagram, and those kind of things are just my name.Mm-hmm.This Substack is actually, I've changed it.It's gonna be called My Dead Reckoning, and dead reckoning is a sailing term really, and it's, it's a meaning that you'll appreciate.When you don't have a compass and you don't have, you know, sometimes you just have to, like, pick your target and do your absolute best to keep moving forward all the time towards that target.And even though you, you can't always see the destination, that continuous forward movement's pretty much always gonna win the day.So- Charlie, thank you so much- Yeahfor coming by.Guys, like, share- It was a pleasuresubscribe.Tell all your friends about this.I'm very excited to, uh, to see how this goes.I'd love to come out there and check it out.Um- Careful what you ask for.Yeah, no.You're coming now.I mean, I'm, I'm always up for an adventure.Uh, guys, thank you so much for watching.As always, uh, we're here at Kracking Cans.Live in fit.Stay strong.