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The official podcast from the team at BookFunnel, hosted by Jack Shilkaitis, Kelli Tanzi, and Emma Alisyn, featuring guest interviews, self-publishing industry discussions, and tips for using BookFunnel to build an author business.
0:00: My whole life is an immersive experience now.
0:02: But I also like, so I'm like, I always have like a bottle of champagne on my, you know, my table or like an apparel, whatever my, you know, and I make it very like, oh, I am living my best.
0:14: I'm living my main character energy when I am editing.
0:18: People love that.
0:18: They think it's so fun.
0:20: Even other authors will come up and be like, oh my God, that's like hilarious.
0:23: Find that space that feels good for you, that feels good for your reader, and we were, we were saying that every event might be a little different or every platform might be a little different, and so there's a lot of testing to see what feels good for you.
0:35: And I think at the end of the day, like, holistic living your brand, like being your own main character, it should feel good.
0:41: Hey folks, welcome to the Book Funnel podcast where authors get real-world advice on writing, publishing, and growing a career on their own terms.
0:49: Whether you're just starting.
0:50: or you're deep into your author journey.
0:51: We're here to help you build your readership, boost your book sales, and connect with your audience.
0:57: Each episode, we aim to bring you insights from authors, experts, and industry insiders who have been there, done that, and then some.
1:04: My name is Jack.
1:05: I am our lead author sports specialist here at Book Funnel.
1:09: And as you can tell, I am a little bit under the weather, but we're gonna power through.
1:14: I am joined today, as always, by my co-host, Emma Allison.
1:19: What's up?
1:20: And our guest for this episode of the Book Funnel podcast, somebody who really needs no introduction, Amanda Trailer, a branding, author, branding expert.
1:30: Welcome to the podcast, Amanda.
1:32: We're gonna have a conversation.
1:35: Around branding today, which I'm excited for.
1:38: I usually like to, to lead with a story though, which is that you and I got the chance to meet in San Francisco recently for the San Francisco Writers' Conference, something you're connected to.
1:48: It was a pleasure to meet you, and your branding did in fact make an impression, which is why we have you here.
1:54: So tell folks about your experience there at, at the San Francisco Writers Conference.
1:58: I know you have a, a connection to that conference as well.
2:01: Yes, thank you.
2:02: But to start, thank you so much.
2:03: For having me on today.
2:04: I am like, just thrilled to be here and meeting you at San Francisco and you in Vegas, Emma is one of the great pleasures.
2:11: So with San Francisco, it's actually, it is a very near and dear conference to my heart because it's where I got my start.
2:17: And I grew up in San Francisco.
2:18: So as a young adult trying to write my first book, I attended, for the first time with like, a book in hand back in the In those days it was a YA novel because Hunger Games and all those were really hot at the time.
2:30: So YA novel.
2:32: So yeah, I started out knowing nothing, really knowing nothing and being extremely overwhelmed, but walking in and be like, oh my God, my people, my weird people, because, you know, as a writer, when you're, well, at least for me, I didn't talk about my writing a lot when I was younger, because I thought people would think I was a nerd and All that, which I was, but yeah, so I started out at that conference and it really changed my life and I started to make industry contacts and because I was local, I started volunteering on the back end, just what we, we would call just in the dungeon where you're just on the back end stuffing bags and just trying to make the show go and apparently I did a good job.
3:06: So over the years I got Promoted and then I eventually was co-running it with the director.
3:12: So I did that for many years where I made the show go on the front end and I ran about 100 staff of 100 and it was, and it was wonderful.
3:20: But as my career took off, it became a little overwhelming to do so I stepped away from that particular role.
3:28: Last year and then kind of took on a more just speaker and hosting the self-publishing track and bringing in amazing people like Book Funnel Jack to come and speak as experts and and that's been a much more manageable role but, but yes, I absolutely love that show.
3:44: I, I hope, I hope to go back every year participate in some way.
3:49: Well, I, I enjoyed it.
3:50: It was great.
3:51: And, and in fact, I was on a couple of the panels which you were hosting, moderating, and you did, you did fantastic, great energy in the room.
3:59: I've got to say.
4:00: I talked for like 7 hours straight.
4:04: I was like I don't know my own name.
4:06: Exactly, exactly.
4:07: But it was, it was great.
4:08: It was great to meet you there.
4:09: And like I mentioned, your, your branding really did make a big impression.
4:14: Kelly, another member of the team, was also there with me, and, and we were, we were talking about it, because there was a Simpson Stories event there.
4:22: Mhm.
4:23: And you were in author mode and you were tell, tell folks what you were doing there that night because I think that might be a great way to, to lead into this, this conversation to kind of set the stage at this event.
4:37: Yeah, so it was a book, a book signing event post, many of the activities, so it was open to the public.
4:43: It was more of a reader event.
4:45: Come in.
4:45: And so I, so I write under June Patrick.
4:48: That's my pen name.
4:49: So when I am in June Patrick mode, I am all June Patrick.
4:53: So I have the huge display and the dresses and the whole everything.
4:58: So June Patrick writes romantic travel stories.
5:01: So they are very specifically always set in Italy or Spain or France, somewhere like that, and they're always.
5:07: Kind of adventurous sort of romantic women's fiction stories and so I do everything.
5:12: So for all my swag, it's like postcards and, you know, lemon, everything, and I've got my lemon earrings, and so yeah, right, I got my lemon dress on, you can't really see it, but so yeah, so I was in like full mode and people who know me as Amanda, like in the industry, they're kind of like, what's this?
5:27: What's happening here?
5:29: like, I've transformed.
5:30: So, so how, how did you arrive at this?
5:34: There's a story here, right?
5:37: How, how we, we got to this, to this place, right?
5:41: How did we get here, Amanda?
5:42: How did we get here?
5:43: Yeah, it was, it's been a long journey.
5:45: I'll try to give you the cliff's notes.
5:46: Yeah, yeah.
5:47: So I started writing.
5:48: I published, I think, for the first time in 20 tail end of 2014, early 2015, and so I, I have like many authors in our business, especially in the indie business.
5:59: pivoted and reinvented many times, you know, started out thinking I was going to do YA and then kind of moved into more mystery, thriller, romantic suspense space, and I lived in that space for a long time.
6:09: And, and I was, you know, I was making a living.
6:12: It was good and I enjoyed it.
6:13: I, I love me a good murder mystery.
6:15: But post pandemic, like that wonderful year 2020, I had a baby and the world was strange and dark, and I was home with this newborn in lockdown, and I was trying to write and I just like I really struggled to get back into the mystery space, and I took some time off and then kind of as things cleared up and she got a little older, I was trying to write this kind of gritty book that had come to me during the pandemic, so it was obviously very, very uplifting, but it was this very gritty like kind of rural noir mystery, and, and I'm, I'm proud of it.
6:47: I love it, but it was such a slog to get through.
6:50: I was really struggling to write it because it was so dark and we had just come out of this very Dark time, and my agent and I shopped it around and it just wasn't vibing with people and it wasn't really vibing with me.
7:02: And it didn't do very well when it finally did come out, and not because I think that the book was bad, but I, I think that it was kind of the universe's way of telling me, maybe this isn't the world you want to live in anymore.
7:13: Like your head is not there anymore.
7:16: I was a young mother and just, I don't know, I wanted to be happier.
7:20: And so, I had participated in like a little short anthology of these travel stories during the pandemic.
7:26: They were just kind of lighthearted rom coms that were, you know, set on vacation, and at the time I was like, well, that's not what I write, so I'll do it, but it's not really what I write.
7:36: I went back to that, and I thought, you know, that was the last time I really felt lit up writing anything, was writing that little fun travel story, and I was like, Maybe there's something there, you know, maybe I should take some time to really reevaluate what I'm, what I'm, so I sat down and I just was like, I'm just gonna write this story set in Italy, and just see where it goes.
7:55: I had no idea.
7:56: And I loved it.
7:57: Oh my God, I wrote the book in like 3 weeks and I was so happy.
8:00: It was just this like great reinvention story, very under the Tuscan sun.
8:03: I'm dating myself there, but I had a great time.
8:06: And so I thought maybe I'll try this.
8:07: Maybe I'll see if My audience likes this too.
8:09: So I started from scratch.
8:10: I didn't tell anybody in my existing audience that I was doing this.
8:13: I came up with a pen name.
8:15: June is my middle name, so I always wanted to go by June.
8:17: So I thought, oh, maybe this.
8:19: And I didn't tell anyone.
8:20: I did all organic, like targeted Facebooking, you know, started Instagram that was just really brandy.
8:26: I did the whole thing kind of in a silo so that I could see if it really had legs versus my current audience.
8:32: Coming over and it blew me out of the water.
8:34: I mean, it, like, I mean, pre-orders were out of control on a book that no one, you know, on an author no one had ever heard of, all the money I had invested, like I made back within the first like two weeks.
8:45: it was crazy.
8:45: So I like kind of just looked at my husband and my agent and I was like, I think maybe this is where I'm supposed to be right now.
8:51: And so yeah, and so I just, that was 2023, and I just dove in and Kind of reinvented myself as a June Patrick, and I'm so glad I did, because I have not had so much fun writing that I had the last like couple of years.
9:06: Yeah.
9:06: And that and that's an important, like if you can enjoy what you're doing, that matters, and I think readers can probably tell.
9:12: I think so, yeah, I think that they feel the fun and the vibe.
9:16: I, I, I also think coming, I was timing was definitely a component.
9:19: People were craving lighter books, I think at the time.
9:22: I mean, of course, the dark books are always going to be there and dark romance trends and all that for sure, but I think at least I found a group of readers that were also needing some pasta and some sunshine and some, you know, vacation romance and wanting to just escape the craziness of this real world.
9:40: Right, so when it comes to branding, I guess, so which, which type do you prefer, right?
9:47: Do we prefer cold branding or a branding with a hot iron?
9:50: Which, which one is, is your preference?
9:52: I don't you remember a cold branding, but I go on, I'm, it's, it's a cattle reference.
9:57: I'm, I'm from Iowa, so that's the joke I was saying.
10:01: Yes, that's the joke I was saving for today.
10:05: No, no, no, no, I had to, I just had to put that in there, but, I, but funny, right, I know it was, it was, everybody's rolling over and laughing right now.
10:16: Maybe I'll use it in one of my books.
10:18: You should.
10:18: So So, this, however, is, is probably what feels natural to you, right?
10:25: So, kind of, the way it seemed to me, and let me know if, if I'm getting this wrong, but seeing you there in person, like, you are taking on that, that pen name almost as a character in a, in a sense, but you're embodying it.
10:38: It's not, it's not a a fake performance.
10:40: You're still you as that, that pen name and as that character, if you will, right?
10:45: What, what would you Say to an author who looks at that and goes, I don't know if like, I've got to shift my whole lifestyle.
10:51: I, I know this is like the opposite end of the coin here, and I'm not trying to, but for that author in that position, what are some ways that they can still think about this and implement these ideas?
11:00: Yes, you're not wrong.
11:01: I went, I went all in.
11:04: Sometimes, like I joke, my daughter goes to an international school.
11:07: She's in the French program, and people are like, Oh, did you do that for your brand, you know, because everything's very travel.
11:13: and then like, don't tell her, yeah, she has to learn French just so I look better on paper.
11:18: No, so I mean, part of for me was the June Patrick brand came from things that I loved before, before having my daughter and everything.
11:25: We traveled extensively to Europe.
11:27: I'm a total Europe junkie, love Italy.
11:30: Everything at home was even like, you know, we have our Nespresso machine and we, you know, I love an apparel and just the way I cook and even some of the way, the way I dress, even though I've gone all in on the branding a little bit, like it was still kind of a little bit of what I loved anyway.
11:43: It was a little, it was my style anyway.
11:45: I love long walks.
11:47: Old cities and all that.
11:48: So for me, when I was really trying to think of how I was going to set this all up, it came pretty naturally because it were things that I loved anyway.
11:56: So my advice to people will be like, yes, you don't have to rearrange, you don't have to put your daughter in a school that specializes in what you're writing, but if there's something that you love, how can you lean into it just a little more?
12:10: Like, if you're writing fantasy and can you become, I don't know, like, can you become more of a Comic-C person or, you know, is cosplaying something that you would like to do maybe and like just to play with it.
12:22: And I think it's about having fun with it.
12:24: It's when you go to a book signing, I do a lot of in-person events.
12:27: I love in person.
12:28: So I'll go to like farmers' markets and wineries and breweries and just like do pop-ups.
12:33: Can you, instead of showing up in like, I don't know, a t-shirt and jeans, can you vibe with your books just a little bit more, you know, can you dress in a way that you don't have to go full-on costume, but can you just Like, lean into that a little bit.
12:46: Can your swag just be like a little more branded to what you're trying to sell instead of like a generic bookmark and think outside the box a little bit.
12:53: Is there like something, I'm really into food, right, with my books are very like culinary.
12:58: So is there like a food or a beverage that is related to what you're writing about that maybe you can make that a thing when you're posting on social media?
13:06: I think there are small ways that you can do that, that you don't have to, you know, rebrand your entire life, although I highly recommend it.
13:14: Right.
13:15: That is definitely like I'm trying to be the main character of my own, you know, right, right.
13:21: No, and I, that was very apparent there at the Simpson stories, and I, I go back to that only because that's my, my exposure to, to that, right?
13:30: And it's like, walking by and there were a bunch of authors lined up and walking and they're all, everybody there was friendly and it was great and there was nobody there that I would say was, was, you know, you know, somebody that I would outright avoid, right?
13:44: But you, it was just very inviting.
13:47: That's good.
13:48: And it, I would say it, and maybe this is, I'm sure this is intentional on some level, but I instantly understood what your books were about before I had ever, like, it's not my genre.
13:59: I'll, I'll point that out, right?
14:01: But I'm like, hey, that's fun.
14:03: And if I were like, like if my wife were into that genre, I write, hey, I need to grab those books for my wife or, or somebody who is your reader, they're gonna be like, oh, OK.
14:13: Instantly understand what they're getting themselves into.
14:16: And that is the goal, you know, part of it, it's an easy, it's, it's win-win because it's an easy sell for me and it's an easy thing for my readers.
14:23: They're not walking up to me and be like, so what are your books about?
14:26: I mean, you know, they might ask me for a premise or what I recommend, but I would say like 80% of the time people walk up and they're like, my God, you're selling romance in Italy and like pasta and whatever, and I want it.
14:38: Like, they kind of know.
14:39: Instantly if that's what they want.
14:41: And like you said, I will actually get, so I do a lot of events at like local breweries because I'm in Denver now and it's a very big thing, but I will get like a lot of like men who will come up and be like, not my, you know, I'm not a reader like that, but I know for a fact my mom would love this or my wife would love this.
14:55: She's dying to go to Barcelona.
14:57: And so it's an easy sell because people know exactly what they're getting.
15:01: the covers are very branded.
15:03: Everything is just extremely over the top branded.
15:06: Exactly.
15:07: It makes it easier for all of us, and then it just weeds out people who aren't gonna like, so I am happy to say I have very high ratings on, you know, Goodreads and even on Goodreads, the horrible place that is Goodreads, because, and I don't think it's not me saying I'm a better author than everything or I write better books.
15:23: I just think I'm finding the right people a little bit more easily.
15:26: Like, I don't get very much.
15:28: Hate mail, I do.
15:29: I mean, there's always someone named Deborah who's upset about something, but, but like for the most part, I think I'm just I'm finding people and they know what they're getting into, so there's not a lot of surprises, you know, they're not getting into it and being like, oh, that is not what I thought.
15:42: I mean, it does, you know, not everybody loves it, but for the most part they're like, oh, yep, that's exactly what I expected, and so they're happy, you know.
15:51: Exactly, it's, it's setting expectations from the get-go, right?
15:55: And for those who aren't in the, the loop on the whole Goodreads thing, this is a, as a footnote here, right, because there's gonna be some author who watches this and be like, what about Goodreads?
16:04: What do you mean?
16:05: Like, do you, do you want to clarify really quickly?
16:08: Yeah, so I think those of you who know, you know, Goodreads, you know, I used to use Goodreads a lot in the beginning.
16:13: It's a platform for readers.
16:14: It's basically like a, I don't know, it's a.
16:16: Social media kind of thing for readers to read, share, you know, make lists about books.
16:22: But I would highly, highly suggest that if you are an author, you don't go on it because it is, it's kind of, it's pretty harsh.
16:29: People do not hold back.
16:30: People will post, for example, something really nice on Amazon, and then they go to Goodreads and they'll be like, but here's everything I hated.
16:36: So it can be a pretty tough place.
16:39: I mean, I, I just gave up going on there a long time ago because it made me really.
16:42: Sad every time I did, because people are discussing your books.
16:45: And so I say it's just, it's a safe space for readers.
16:47: It's not designed for authors, in my humble opinion, but some, some very brave authors like to hang out there, but from what I, from what I understand too, there's also kind of a difference in the scale, like the star rating on Goodreads versus Amazon, and Amazon is like, well, anything 4 and above is a good book, right?
17:07: And Goodreads is like, well, no, 3 is a good book.
17:10: 3 is a good book, and, and 4 is a great book, and 5 is the best book I've ever read.
17:14: So you're trying to trend a lot lower on Goodreads.
17:17: It's a little bit hard to digest as a, as an author.
17:20: And sometimes I think that it's not that we don't want honest feedback.
17:23: I mean, I do, but I also don't necessarily need to seek out negative things because that's a space for readers to talk about it and it's fine.
17:31: Like I don't need to be in that space.
17:33: Yeah.
17:34: The, the only advice I'd give to authors who are now panicking is if you have arc readers, right, ask them to, and you know and you trust them, and that you know that they align right with you and what you're writing, ask them to leave those reviews that they leave on Amazon.
17:50: Ask them to do the same thing on Goodreads, and that can, that can help.
17:54: But, but yeah, you yourself, you can steer clear of it.
17:57: That's totally, I know a lot of authors that will have their personal assistants mine Goodreads using quotes.
18:03: Because they're like, I'm just not even gonna go on there.
18:06: You tell me if there's anything I need to know.
18:08: Right, right, exactly.
18:09: And then you, you go into a downward spiral and you lose focus on branding and your whole career just becomes, yeah, it'd be, it'd be, it'd be terrible.
18:17: But, but this is, this is a good kind of case study almost how, like how your branding impacts your business at every level, right?
18:25: Because even this thing like these reviews, right, the 2nd, 3rd order.
18:29: Consequence of having this kind of branding or I, I, I guess, I guess whether or not somebody does exactly what you're doing, you know, is because people are writing in different genres, people have different levels of comfort.
18:41: Not everybody's going to be doing in-person events, but this is very easily something you could probably replicate on social media, even if you're just using a newsletter, you can write in the style of a, of a, you can kind of take on that persona, that kind of thing.
18:55: Yeah, and newsletter is a great example because I try to send out weekly, and I don't always have, I don't publish, I'm, I'm hybrid now, so I'm a little slower than I used to be, cause I have a I work with a publisher now, but, but even when I was, I wasn't, I was like, maybe a 3 book a year kind of person, so I was never like, turning, turning.
19:13: Turning.
19:14: So I don't always have book news to talk about.
19:16: So I use my newsletter as a way to extend that brand where I talk about like lifestyle stuff and oh, here's this like great for me, it'd be like, here's a great recipe I did, or, you know, here's my morning, here's a day, you know, I do this series where I'm like, here's how to, Look, I, instead of romanticizing your life, because that's, that's a trend you hear a lot on social media, I say like how a la dolce vita your life.
19:37: So like everything from your morning coffee to your like croissant break to your this, to that, and so I do series about that to kind of support the brand when I'm in between, you know, book news, and they, and they, they love that, giving them a little slice of, you know, how to, you know.
19:54: Yeah, that's great.
19:54: So you could do that if you don't necessarily have, you can just write newsletter stuff to support, I don't know, you're writing a murder mystery and you're like, oh my God, I love to do a tour of old houses in my neighborhood, and here's a really cool one I saw, something like that.
20:06: Now, how do you manage that if, and I like to say I'm a really trashy wench who writes highfalutin fantasy, so the voice you get in my books is lush, prose, complicated, and then you come and I'm like, look, you know, I'm like, hood.
20:24: So how are you managing embodying your brand, but being authentic?
20:29: Because when I'm in my writer stuff, yes, I'm all of that, but Emma is yeah.
20:34: Again, it's a little bit of a personal choice.
20:36: Again, it kind of goes to alignment where I feel that I'm writing pretty authentic to myself.
20:42: Like I, I feel like I'm writing a story I want to live in, and they are contemporary stories, so I don't have the fantasy element.
20:48: But, so while I, I might approach it a little different because the books, for example, are, I don't swear, I keep them kind of, kind of book clubby, so I try to I'm giving you a hard time.
20:59: I know, I know, right?
21:00: So I do try to keep the voice in my news, like I'm not dropping f-bombs in my newsletter or whatever, trying to, but, you know, I might do that in real life, but I really am trying to use a voice that matches what I, how I write in my book so that it's not a complete jarring contrast.
21:13: I also use it as an opportunity to, maybe draw in because, you know, you get news people subscribe to newsletter through various ways, maybe a, a Well, oh God, what is that book?
21:25: The newsletter builder, I'm blanking on the, anyway, one of those, you know, you might get readers through a a newsletter building thing that may have not actually read your books.
21:34: So I also use it as an opportunity to show them my voice and my writing style that maybe I'll bring them into my books if they haven't read it, because I have like a news a woman who said, oh, I've been on your news.
21:44: Letter for 2 years and I finally picked up one of your books.
21:46: I was like, thanks.
21:47: But she'd been opening my newsletters and enjoying what I was selling.
21:50: So if you write something really vastly different, I would try to find a bridge, you know, I mean, I, I would try to be as close to that as possible.
21:58: Like I said, like, if your books are clean, maybe don't swear a whole bunch in your newsletter.
22:03: I'm not saying you have to write like Shakespeare.
22:05: if that's not authentic, but you want to try to line up at least as much as you can because it's also, like I said, it's an opportunity to show them how you write, and to entice them into other things.
22:16: And I don't know, I would probably go full swashbuckling high fantasy in my newsletter if that were me, because again, I do have a persona.
22:26: Yeah, it sounds like they're may be a happy medium.
22:29: Like maybe you can, you can do that.
22:31: I have a friend, you met Holly in the, in San Francisco, and she writes like, paranormal, like demon romance.
22:38: And even though she's not writing exactly how she would write in her books, her whole like just the vibe and the energy, even in her newsletter, it's just like edgy.
22:48: Like, you're like, oh yeah, you write demon.
22:50: you know, demon romance, it just like comes off that way.
22:53: So I think there's a way to to merge it a little bit, right?
22:56: Or like, so I, I write in science fiction, but it's softer science fiction.
23:00: It's not hard sci-fi.
23:01: A lot of sci-fi authors will be like, Oh, did you see what happened with NASA and the, the whole article?
23:07: Like they'll have, they'll include that stuff in, in their newsletter.
23:09: I'm like, Nope, I don't do that.
23:11: And I make sure first chapter of every book has an f-bomb.
23:14: Because there's gonna be plenty after that, so it better be in my newsletter as well.
23:18: So you know, so you know to walk away if this is not your thing.
23:23: And that's, and that's branding, right?
23:26: I did, I did a branding, right?
23:27: Yeah, that's part of branding that people don't always think about, and I, I teach a master class on, on this where it's not like branding is not just your color schemes.
23:35: I mean, that's part of it, but a lot of it is, it's expectation.
23:39: It's, are you delivering what they want and is it consistent.
23:43: Like, is that voice consistent?
23:44: Is your, you know, I don't swear.
23:46: And so if all of a sudden I opened up with an f-bomb, my readers would be very, very upset with me.
23:52: Also, like, my sex scenes are more fade to black.
23:55: So if I had a spicy scene, all of a sudden without warning, it would not be good.
23:59: And you know, that's romance is pretty, you know, they're pretty particular about that kind of stuff.
24:04: But it's, but it's, it's expectations, and that is part of branding for sure, right, right.
24:08: And if you were going to write something that was different.
24:11: Than that, that would be the time to probably invent a new persona, yeah, and I'm, you know, is able to do those things.
24:18: Absolutely.
24:18: If you want, and I do, I have a coaching client right now where she, as a lot of new writers do, you know, she wants to write in many genres.
24:26: She's like, yeah, but I think I want to write in like all these different genres, and I think I can do it under one pen name.
24:30: And we've all made that, you know, we've all been down that road, and I don't know.
24:33: There's always an exception to the rule.
24:35: There's always somebody who pulls it off, but so I don't, you know, I don't like to be too prescriptive, but best practice.
24:40: would suggest that you do, you know, if they're that vastly different, and that's part of the reason I did start a pen name was because everything I was writing under Amanda, just, it just wouldn't have vibed.
24:50: And now I'm like, you know, I miss writing mysteries sometimes.
24:53: Like I, I do have the pull.
24:54: I love me a good murder mystery.
24:56: And so I'm, I'm in debates of like, is there a way I can maybe write like a cozy mystery that would, like, you know, set in Italy that would maybe vibe with my, with my readers a little bit more, you know.
25:09: So, because I don't want to violate their expectations, right, right, right.
25:14: And I think at the core of this though is like it, no matter what you choose to do, it has to align with you.
25:19: So if, if you're like chasing, like, I'm not trying to pick on romanticy right now, but if, but it's, it's the trend, it's the trend.
25:27: And so if you're like, I'm gonna chase that because that's where the money is, I feel like Yeah, and then you try to, to take that on as a persona.
25:34: I feel like people are gonna smell the fake on you a little bit.
25:36: I really think that they do, and you know, we see that a lot, I think, in the indie space where, you know, right to market was a hot, a buzzword for a long time, and it's not incorrect, but I think that too.
25:47: Many people are trying to, they try to chase what they think is, is buzzy and hot, and it doesn't feel authentic, and you might be able to make money doing that, I think, but I don't think you'll have a long-term career ever doing that.
25:59: I think this is a, this, this industry is a long game, this career is a long game.
26:04: I'm now in, in the trad space and talk about long lead times.
26:08: I mean, I love it.
26:09: It's a different, it's a whole different thing, but like, you really have to think long term because, you know, my, my contracts are like 1 year to 18 months out from, you know, you sell a book and then it doesn't hit bookstores for another year.
26:20: So you can't really be writing to market.
26:22: You have to be writing.
26:23: What feels authentic.
26:24: And, you know, unfortunately, you never know what is going to trend, and sometimes things go viral and sorry, or, you know, something's just not working right now, and sorry, that does happen.
26:33: But I think being authentic and being aligned with what you're writing will, will kind of always be the winning formula long term.
26:39: But not to sound like a motivational poster, but, you know.
26:43: Now, how do you go into this with brand?
26:46: Do you go into it knowing upfront what your brand is, who you're targeting, or is that something you can kind of develop over time as you find yourself, your voice as an author?
26:55: Like, are there two different methods here, or what would you do?
26:59: Yeah, that's a, it's a good question, and I do think there are slightly two different ways.
27:03: I think sometimes it is more organic, like you have an idea.
27:06: Idea for a book, and you're like, OK, I'm gonna play with this and see what it does.
27:09: And then I think sometimes you discover your audience along the way.
27:12: I do think you can do it that way.
27:14: I think that's a little harder from like a marketing standpoint.
27:17: You may not, because you don't know who you're marketing to necessarily.
27:19: So you may put the book out there and then you organically find your people, but it's definitely takes a little bit longer.
27:25: And I've been down that road where I certainly did not know who I was selling.
27:28: To, I think the other way is you have a specific reader in mind, and this, this goes to kind of old school marketing tactics where you always know your audience.
27:36: So for the June, for example, I had the idea to write the book, but I really thought about who would read it because I didn't, I didn't want to waste my energy, you know, kind of putting something out there that because I, I'm a career author, so like I do need to make a, I do need to make this work.
27:51: So, you know, and if you're a hobbyist and you're just playing around, that's fine, you know, do whatever you want, but, so I did really think about, like, comp comp books.
27:58: I read all the kinds of books I thought I aligned with, you know, and, OK, who are their audiences?
28:04: I started stalking those people on social media to say, like, what kind of people are following, you know, these authors, who's reading these books?
28:11: So I I had a fairly good idea of who I was selling to, but then I have found out a lot over the last 3 years about who reads my books.
28:20: and sometimes it's shocking.
28:21: You're like, oh, I did not even know that was part of my audience.
28:24: So I think you'll continue to grow and figure that out as you go.
28:28: But I think if you can have an idea of who your audience is, it does make everything a lot easier when you're starting out.
28:37: Now we've mentioned in-person events, newsletters, and social media.
28:40: Are those really The tools, the core tools you utilize to discover how readers are responding to your brand, where you need to shift things, if maybe, because Becca Sime likes to say, all one star is, is a sign you're not marketing to the right person.
28:56: So, so on a practical level, how do you figure out what your readers are responding to, what you need to tweak, who they are and what they want.
29:04: Yeah, so yeah, I do, I love in-person events.
29:07: I have never been great at social media, like Facebook, I try to do Facebook groups, and I just, I don't know, I have like a visceral reaction to going onto it every day.
29:16: I just really don't like that interaction.
29:18: I don't know what it is.
29:19: I don't mind Instagram so much, but like that weird, I don't know, the Facebook group dynamic thing just did not work for me.
29:25: In social media, it has taken me a while to Get comfortable interacting with fans in that way.
29:31: But in-person events, I'm complete opposite.
29:33: Like, I absolutely can be at an event for 8 hours and just be, I mean, I'll be exhausted, but I am just lit up from those interactions.
29:41: So I really leaned into that, and I, so I do a lot of in-person signings, and I'm not talking big, big author signings.
29:46: I'm like, local farmers' market, you know, things like that, like a craft fair, like anything that feels vibey for the June Patrick brand.
29:53: A good, a good way to know what's resonating is, of course, like, what I just have All the books on display and it's like, which ones are people going to immediately?
30:01: And that's a good idea because they're very, they're pretty specific about where they're set.
30:04: It's like Italian rendezvous, Tasting Barcelona, like it's very specific where each book is set.
30:09: So people I know like with a low, OK, yeah, so I mean, as you'd imagine, like Italy is a number one bestseller, you know, Prague, people think that's fun, but it's not, you know, not as interested in Prague.
30:19: OK, so that that right there is like a really good indication of what people like.
30:24: Of course, read through, I track my read through obsessively.
30:27: But I do have standalones.
30:28: They're all standalones, so it's not as easy as if it were like a chronological series, but obviously like ratings and reviews, I do pay attention.
30:36: I pay attention to which social media cooks get the most attention, so like which place I'm talking about, which tropes, that kind of thing, and I have, I've definitely missed stuff.
30:47: I mean, I have one book that trends a lot lower star ratings than others, and I'm like, OK, just the tropes weren't quite what they wanted.
30:55: You know, there was just something about it.
30:57: Tell us more.
30:58: Tell us more about your failures, Amanda.
30:59: We want, I know, so yeah, I do feel on occasion and Amanda's perfect and she just does everything just right the first time.
31:06: I'm, I'm giving you a hard time, yeah, but that totally makes sense.
31:11: I you're getting that feedback.
31:12: Yeah, so just for paying attention and I think you have to be honest, you know, we do have to have a thick skin in this industry, of course.
31:18: And while I said I don't, you know, I don't go on to Goodreads, but I do, I do try to be honest with myself.
31:23: Like I have, you know, I said I'm the one book that trends lower consistently, and it's like, OK, why?
31:28: Like just be honest with myself.
31:29: about why that maybe didn't resonate.
31:32: and I'll pull my readers sometimes, like, what did you like, what did you not like?
31:35: My readers are kind of hesitant to tell me anything bad, which is nice.
31:39: It is nice, but yeah, you just, you just kind of have to pay attention a little, got to get a little data deep maybe sometimes.
31:45: And also I think It's, it's OK to like the book that doesn't trend as high for me.
31:51: I still love it.
31:52: That's OK.
31:52: You just move on, write the next thing, you know.
31:55: Right, right.
31:56: It's interesting because I had the opportunity to go to Planet Comic-Con in Kansas City recently with Johnny B.
32:03: Truant.
32:04: I love Johnny, and I, I shadowed him there for a time at his booth, and it was, it was quite the experience, and, and Johnny's great for anybody who hasn't had the chance to meet him.
32:14: He's so fun.
32:15: But he's got an eclectic collection of books there on the table, and it still has a vibe to it for sure.
32:23: Mhm.
32:25: But, like he's got, and it's across, I've got a few of them around in the room here actually.
32:30: One here available within arm's reach, but Dead City, this is one that's fairly popular.
32:36: You're welcome, Johnny, by the way, for the plug.
32:38: Right.
32:39: And so you can tell like, absolutely, right?
32:41: We've got like, you know, zombie kind of apocalypse pandemic type thing.
32:46: And then he has unicorn western, which is like rainbow colors with a cowboy on a unicorn, right?
32:51: And so it's a little bit like here and there and, and not to say that, that like what Johnny's doing is wrong.
32:57: I think he's doing something different than what you're doing, but I, it was interesting to see too, like, he would pay attention to like, they would come up to the table and what would they look at?
33:06: What would they stop at, what book would they pick up?
33:08: And that gives you signals as well.
33:11: So, just being in person to begin with, I think, is a great way to kind of find out who your readers are, because you can start to get, there's something about like on social media, it's kind of It's a proxy for interacting with people.
33:25: It's not actually interacting with people.
33:28: Whereas when you're there in person in the flesh, and they pick up the book and you see their actual reaction, like something about that, I think gets, but do you feel the same way, Amanda?
33:38: Watch, it's funny, like I'll be at an event, for example, and I'll see somebody like walk by and they'll kind of eye it.
33:44: You know, and then, and then they keep walking, you know, cause there's lots to see, and then they might do another lap, and they keep eyeing it, and I watched, like, what they're, you know, paying attention to.
33:54: A lot of times they will finally, like, 3rd or 4th pass, they'll come over and they're like, OK, I've been looking at this, I really want to go to Italy, so I'm gonna, you know, buy this book.
34:01: Yeah.
34:02: And so people do, I do watch like, or they pick up the physical book and they're, I, I do see like physical reactions in a way that, and you can't fake that, right?
34:12: on social media, you can, you know, you can be anywhere you want.
34:15: In person, people have visceral reactions to things and it's, I enjoy that.
34:20: I, it's fun to watch, and, you know, or they just, they look and they just move on, you know, and that's fine too, but Yeah, and you, and you never know.
34:28: I think if you find, like I said, I'll do events that aren't specifically for books, like a farmer's market, for example, and or like a local craft fair, and those actually can be fantastic because sometimes you're the only author swinging their wares, you stand out, but it's a kind of a Good way to find out like who navigates towards your book.
34:46: Sometimes I'll be like, I'll go to like a big romance signing, and that's fantastic.
34:49: I love those, but you might just get people who are frantically buying romance books and they're like, whatever, I just want to buy a book from everybody, and that's, you know, great, you reach new readers, but when you're in like a non-book environment, That is aligned with your vibe.
35:03: You may get readers coming up to you and you're like, oh, like I kind of assumed I would always, I would have older book club ladies, like, you know, and I do, I have a lot of, I do a lot of book clubs, but I also will just get young people that are like, oh, I'm in college and I really want to travel.
35:15: You're like, oh, OK, and I haven't had a chance yet.
35:17: Like I did not think I would have younger readers, but I do, you know, and that's great because in my mind younger readers are reading all the spicy book talk books, and I was like, OK.
35:25: Right, yeah, I don't, you know, they're this, that, that.
35:27: Oh, I love that.
35:27: I love that, you know, so you never know, like it can really surprise you, right?
35:31: Well, and that's kind of a microcosm too for, for like advertising on a certain like a certain level there.
35:38: You see what, what branding that you've, you know, people are responding to at an in-person event, because when you put an ad, you throw up an ad on Facebook, that's the general public is going to see that in a way.
35:50: It's kind of, it's kind of like a, like a test case for that, that sort of stuff.
35:55: Whereas, like at a specific reader event or even like a genre-based reader event, like a romance readers' event, well, they're, they're selecting themselves from the beginning just by attending the event to begin with.
36:06: So, of course, they're going to be interested in your book, but it's a different sort of scenario.
36:11: It is, it's, it's a different data piece for sure.
36:14: Exactly.
36:15: Both are, both are good though.
36:16: Both are good.
36:17: Absolutely, and, and I say like test different things and every my books being very branded and my whole vibe being very brand, like if you see my, my setup, it's just like, so lemons are like my, my sort of my thing, so everything is like lemony and and again it's like if you hate lemons, don't make lemons your thing, like that's part of being authentic, right?
36:35: Like.
36:36: So, you know, you see it and it's just like I have postcards instead of bookmarks or like my QR codes are like vintage postcards.
36:43: I give, you know, I have like limoncello I give away.
36:46: I have everything like like travel notebooks and things like that.
36:50: So everything is extremely.
36:52: Extremely branded and that sells really well in person, you know, so I think that's one of the advantages is it like it's eye-catching in an in-person event.
37:02: and again, that's just me, not in-person events are not for everybody, for sure.
37:06: It's, this is what I'm selling you.
37:08: Yeah, no, I, I've caught the in-person event bug myself.
37:11: I see how somebody, somebody walks up to the table and they just see books on the table, like, oh, books, right?
37:16: Like I actually saw that reaction in Kansas City, like, oh, books, and then they just keep walking.
37:22: But when you've got, when you've got some other accouterment, right?
37:27: There to go with it.
37:28: Now there's not just a book, like, it's like you're inviting them into an experience, and I think that helps build trust.
37:33: And I love the way you said that, yeah, like the experience, and that is what I'm selling with the books.
37:38: It's like, this is an experience.
37:40: I'm going to immerse you on this adventure, this vacation, and that's, you know, what my whole, I've decided to make that my life because I just want to live in Italy, so my whole life.
37:50: It is an immersive experience now that, but I also like, so I'm like, I always have like a bottle of champagne on my, you know, my table or like an apple, whatever my, you know, and I make it very like, oh, I am living my best.
38:04: I am living my main character energy when I am at an event.
38:08: People love that.
38:08: They think it's so fun.
38:10: Even other authors will come up and like, oh my God, this is like hilarious.
38:12: You brought.
38:14: I didn't know, like, of course I did.
38:15: Why wouldn't I, right?
38:16: So what would you tell, like, imagine, let's, let's picture here.
38:20: I'm gonna give you a case study and you tell me what this author should do, so.
38:25: Yeah, he's, you know, late 30s, writes science fiction, he's got a beard, That sort of thing, right?
38:35: Now, I'm, I'm joking a little bit here, but like, what would be, I don't know how much, because I know you're focused on your genre, but is it kind of a thing where you just kind of like you, you have an idea and you try it and you see how it goes, like the postcards you mentioned.
38:51: At one point, that was an idea.
38:53: And you just, you put it out there, and if it works, then you, you keep doing it, and if it doesn't work, OK, we have ideas are cheap, right?
39:00: We can come up with more ideas.
39:02: Yeah, yeah.
39:03: Well, I think like so in your theoretical example, yes.
39:08: Person is this person just starting out, or are they, I mean they've been doing it for a while, but they've got a really demanding day job and the man's keeping them down and yes, several of those.
39:18: I'm, yeah, I mean, I think that it is like, you know, again, finding that alignment with the, with the genre you love is a big, you know, and there are people who write in multiple genres and maybe they're not gonna fully rebrand their life over every genre, but that's a really good helpful first step if you already enjoy what you're writing and it's like, it's like an interesting.
39:35: Of you anyway, which probably is for most people, especially like, I don't think you don't just randomly start writing sci-fi unless you're interested in it.
39:42: So yeah, I would think like what's kind of unique that is specific to your, what you're selling, you know, whatever the specific type of sci-fi is.
39:51: Let's say you did write like space sci-fi, I don't know.
39:54: I don't know exactly what, what the subgenre if it's like really into space, let's say you were really into like rocket ships and like the whole NASA, you know, sci-fi.
40:03: You could have, you could have postcards from the space launch from NASA.
40:08: You could have key chains that are, you know, little rocket ships that are branded, could have, you know, just anything.
40:13: You gotta think outside the box, and I always like to make it something a little bit useful.
40:18: Instead of, I mean, how many bookmarks do we really need from a book signing, right, but something, so my postcards you can actually mail them or, you know, it's like.
40:27: It's, it's it's keychain with chapstick or it's like lemon, you know, lemon, it's a notebook that you can actually use like at the thing, it's a travel bag, it's a, you know, I, I do, anyway, so you find something that maybe is actually kind of useful, like that someone isn't just gonna throw in the trash for one, and then how can it just be unique to you that something that's not a million people are doing it?
40:48: I mean, You get the same swag over and over at events, and most of it, I think ends up in the trash.
40:54: Or if you are gonna do a bookmark, so I was at, this, I'm gonna show you this like funny thing, this, bookmark that I got from this local brewery, I do it all at events of, and it's, it's a bookmark, but it's Pedro Pascal, and he's saying something really funny.
41:06: I'm not gonna throw that in the trash because it says, let daddy hold the pages for you, you know, Pedro Pascal is the world's daddy, right?
41:13: So it's just like that's hilarious, like from a romance author, like I'm not gonna throw that away because that's super unique.
41:20: So I think if you can find something that's related to what you do, that's unique, you know, that's a good first start.
41:25: And what was the second part of the question?
41:29: Sorry, I tangent.
41:31: Yeah.
41:33: Show that bookmark and I, I, I totally forgot, right, right, but no, I just, I think some authors might be trying to like, OK, I see Amanda doing this over here.
41:43: I see June, let me say, let me correct myself, doing this over here.
41:47: I'm in a totally different genre, and there's some thinking I think you have to do ahead of time, yeah, you do, I mean.
41:52: And you do have to get, you know, you have to spend some time figuring out what your, your readers would find useful, funny, entertaining, and maybe it's not, I mean, I say useful, I mean, at Bookmark, for example, is just funny, so it makes me laugh.
42:05: I don't get it, you know, that's useful to me.
42:07: So some, you know, so you have to sit with your genre and you have to figure out what.
42:12: What, what, what, what vibes with what you're selling, and, but I think how can you make your table set up, you know, if you are doing talking in person events, think about your, I mean, colors and all that, they, they do matter too.
42:23: Like I'm very specifically color branded yellow and blue, and I know thriller authors who do that too.
42:28: They've just picked a color scheme, and that's how they're doing it, and I think so that's part of it.
42:34: any kind of visuals that can be like mine is the lemon, so if you're in sci-fi, is it a, you know, a certain kind of a planet or a certain kind of spaceship or whatever, whatever the, the subgenre is, Is there like a recurring visual that can show up in your space, even if it isn't exactly about what you're writing, it's just something that people see and they start to associate with that, with the vibe, with the book, and you just start putting that on stuff, you know, and.
43:03: That's an easy way to start, you know, if you don't want to rebrand yourself as a character, although it's a lot of fun.
43:10: Emma, were you going to chime in there for a second and then I interrupted you?
43:13: I think she kind of answered it, but I was about to jump on that because I love that Pedro Pascal thing.
43:18: But I'm like, is that what you want to do?
43:20: Look for like bridges, especially if you're writing like fantasy bridges between your, your world and the modern world.
43:27: You can, that's one way to do it for sure.
43:29: I mean, I.
43:31: I would say like that works for like, you know, like a spicy rom-com writer, right?
43:36: Like they're very in tune to what is hot on Instagram and TikTok and what people are, you know, so I think it depends on like who your audience is like kitschy humor won't be for every genre, but, or like spicy humor is, I don't know if like a sci-fi author should put a P Pedro Pascal on his, I don't know if that was good, it will resonate with his audience, but yeah, he's in the Mandalorian.
43:57: So that helps.
43:58: That's true.
43:59: That's true.
43:59: Good point.
43:59: Good point.
44:00: So you know, but yeah, like if I think if you can find a way to connect with the modern audience, that always helps, in a way I've I've got some props.
44:09: I've got some props.
44:09: I'll be right.
44:10: You keep, you keep talking.
44:11: I'll be right back.
44:12: But maybe I could put like some bat wings, Photoshop some bat wings on him and call him shadow daddy.
44:18: There you go, shadow daddy.
44:20: That is exactly so I mean, I think as a romance, you know.
44:23: I think if you have any female audience whatsoever, or or gay audience, I don't know, you could definitely use Pedro in your marketing.
44:30: I don't know if he's if he needs a kickback or not, but, but, but yeah, I think, you know, connecting to the modern world or or something that's trending for me there, there was a big thing on social media like the romanticizing your life, and that was very hashtag trendy, right?
44:43: And so I'm like, OK, like I'm gonna kind of tap into that idea of romanticizing your life, but For me, I, I put my own personal spin on it, like, how to, how to la dolce vita your life.
44:53: And it's kind of the same concept.
44:55: It's just whittled down to me specifically.
44:59: So, yeah, if you can find something that's trending, you know, I don't know, the space launch, like whatever it is, I mean, if you can tie into that, it always helps, right?
45:07: For, well, I'll show one of my covers here because that will, that will help with some context for what I'm about to show.
45:12: So this is the type of sci-fi we're talking about, right?
45:15: Space marine, in case you're wondering, right?
45:18: Dudes in, in armor fighting aliens and stuff and that sort of thing, and I'm totally cosplay that you like, so, so this is, this is like nerd, right?
45:27: This is, that's of course from a video game.
45:30: This is also from a video game.
45:31: This is a chain sword.
45:32: These are.
45:32: Things that you know about if you are in that space and viewers watching, you have like, what are you talking about?
45:39: You have no idea.
45:41: Totally fine, but that's the point is that my readers do, right?
45:45: Because that's what they're into.
45:46: And so, like, I know you talked about the stuff being useful, but a lot of nerds, the stuff that they buy like That neither of those things are useful, but I have both of them.
45:56: Well, I mean, you know, I guess useful is a relative term.
46:00: Does it make you laugh?
46:00: Does it entertain, right, right.
46:02: No, that's, that's fair.
46:03: Yeah, forms of being useful.
46:05: I mean, you can even have that chain sword.
46:07: Is that what you call that, chain sword?
46:09: Yeah, OK.
46:09: It's a very practical weapon, by the way.
46:12: Yeah, I mean, it looks intense.
46:14: It's like you could definitely fight zombies with that.
46:17: Yeah, that could just be on your table, you know, like that is a massive visual.
46:21: Like someone's walking by and they're gonna be like, that's a chain sword.
46:24: What they're gonna know what that's from.
46:25: It's gonna indicate to them, even if it's not from my world, they know immediately it's associated with that genre, and then, yeah, exactly.
46:33: It's fine.
46:33: I have, I have a table tomorrow, and I'm, I'm gonna take that with me now.
46:36: I think you should put it on your table because that is if I sell out, if I sell out, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say it's, it's because of Amanda, because of the chain sword, my friend.
46:45: Yes, but, but, same sort of thing.
46:48: Well, and you know, you're, that's a great example of exactly what I'm talking about.
46:52: When you find something that you're already, you're already aligned with, like you're already into, you already geek out on it.
46:57: It's so much easier to brand yourself in real life around that because you're probably kind of doing it more than you realize anyway.
47:05: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
47:07: And, and, and being comfortable with that too, because I know like, this is why I actually like to bring up some of my interests on the podcasts.
47:14: Specifically, even though people are like, it's the 5th time he's mentioned that thing that nobody cares or knows about, but, but the people, like when you say those things, like people know, like that your people will know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a way of signaling in, in a sense, and, and that, and that works in that, in that context.
47:32: So a good question to ask yourself when you are trying to do this like branding, like if we're just starting out, for example, if, if considering now being an introvert or something is different, I get it.
47:43: Like in-person stuff isn't for everyone, but if you're thinking about branding and you get the ick at all about this, the tropes or the visuals or whatever, maybe you're not writing in the right genre.
47:54: You know, if like there's anything about it that puts you off, like I felt like that when I was attempting in the beginning to be like, oh, I should be writing like more spicy romance because that's what's really hot.
48:03: I have no problem with spicy romance.
48:04: It's just for me personally, like, and it, it just gave me the ick to try to like, be, I don't know, to wrap my head around it.
48:10: And I was like, OK, I.
48:12: I, this is not for me, so, you know, it's something worth considering like if it feels like a battle to try to market it or brand it or become it or represent it, it might not be the right thing for you.
48:24: Yeah, yeah, no, and I, and I know for we, we've, I've had the chance to talk to some authors in the, in those spicier.
48:32: Genres and in-person events in particular can sometimes be a little awkward too, like the, the, the, the, depending on the audience and the crowd and, and so forth.
48:44: So I, I can totally understand that for some authors maybe that's something you kind of step aside from, but like I think of Sasha, Sasha Black or who she writes under, she writes under Ruby Rowe and her TikTok.
48:57: Very much like she embodies, she embodies that sort of thing without, without even having to like, I don't know that she dresses up in costumes or anything like that, on her TikTok, but very much, yeah, very much like the persona and, and of course she writes like Sappic romance.
49:13: I'm sorry, Sasha, if I'm getting this wrong, but like Sappic romanticy, right?
49:17: And so she and she knows how to talk to her audience on that platform.
49:21: So even if like in-person stuff, doesn't you feel uncomfortable like doing that in person if you do feel comfortable doing it on social media, like if it's, if it's a genre-related thing, I don't feel, I don't want anybody to think that, oh, this is, they're just talking about doing stuff in person.
49:36: I think you can do this in multiple.
49:38: Yeah, it happens to just be what I've found a groove in, but yeah, I mean, many people are not doing in-person things for many, many reasons.
49:44: It's hard.
49:44: I mean, I have a little one at home.
49:45: It's hard to travel as much as I'd like.
49:48: I definitely get that, and social media is a wonderful way obviously to connect with with people and, and I don't wanna also say that just because you don't wanna like, like you're writing in Spicy, for example, you don't want to go out there talking about sex toys or something like you're not, I'm not saying you have to be like so, but some people do wanna hide.
50:08: I understand, of course, but this is, this is not your podcast then.
50:13: I'm just kidding because I'm not hiding, no.
50:15: You could, you could hire somebody to play that persona for you at some point, even if you really wanted to, yeah, I do work with clients who don't want to show their face, and I get that.
50:25: I understand there's a lot of reasons, but you can definitely brand in a different, you know, you can, you can still do it in a different.
50:33: There are ways to do it even without having to to cross that because for some people that totally makes sense.
50:38: You don't have to walk down the street in a lemon dress if you don't want to.
50:42: I was looking forward to it though.
50:44: I know.
50:44: I think, I really think you can rock it, Jack.
50:46: I really do.
50:47: I could pull it off.
50:47: Next conference I see you at.
50:50: Oh boy.
50:50: One about being politically incorrect because when y'all were talking about branding shit, I'm like, well, in my tentpole series, my main heroine is a real lush.
50:58: Like she loves wine.
50:59: She's an alcoholic.
50:59: I'm like, can I like bring a little mini wine glasses, but maybe that might not go off the right way.
51:05: You're an alcoholic, you know.
51:08: I bring champagne to my, my books.
51:11: I think it's about getting the vibe, getting the vibe across.
51:16: I think it's about getting the vibe across without necessarily like actually committing to public intoxication, right?
51:22: Is that what we mean, is that what we would say that's to the in-person event with some red wine and be chugging like, yeah, that's authentic.
51:29: I mean, there's this guy, depends on how far you wanna go with it.
51:32: I mean, you know, it's like, right.
51:35: How all in do we wanna be, right, right, and maybe that's something I can, I can mention that there's obviously like a spectrum of this, like anything like, yeah, you know, and I imagine that that could be determined by the event too, cause like some events that culture might be.
51:51: A little more like if you're going to like a dark romance type thing, then maybe the wine's OK.
51:56: But if you're going to like puppies and light shows, then maybe not.
51:59: Yeah, or if you're like, you've got a table at your local Barnes and Noble, you know, that that should probably have grape juice in it is what you'd say, right?
52:09: That's probably.
52:11: All right, all right, well, I, I think that's a, a good place as any to wrap.
52:17: Amanda, I wanna thank you for joining us for this episode of the podcast.
52:22: Before we go, anything else, anything you wanna, call people's attention to, shout out, anything like that?
52:28: I think just a little recap is that take this, take it as a spectrum that, you know, I highly recommend going all in on branding, but don't feel like it's all or nothing, you know, I feel just, you can always start with small things, or, you know, you can go full cosplay.
52:44: So find that space that feels good for you, that feels good for your reader, and we were, we were saying.
52:48: Saying that every event might be a little different or every platform might be a little different.
52:53: And so there's a lot of testing to see what feels good for you.
52:56: And I think at the end of the day, like, holistic living your brand, like being your own main character, it should feel good.
53:02: It should, you know, it should be fun is the is the whole idea.
53:05: So, yeah, thank you so much for having me on today.
53:09: Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
53:11: Thank you, Amanda, for, for joining us.
53:14: It was a good conversation.
53:16: Of course, thank you to Emma, my co-host, and thank you to you, our viewers.
53:21: If you're watching here on YouTube, make sure you subscribe to the channel and like this video.
53:25: Also leave a comment with your number 1 or 2 or 3 takeaways that you got from this conversation.
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53:38: It really does help.
53:39: From everybody here at Book Funnel, I wanna thank you for watching and listening, and we'll see you all in the next one.
53:45: Thank you for watching.
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