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Best Beginnings is the podcast for everyone working in or caring about the early years. Hosted by George Looker, CEO of Babyzone, each episode brings together leading researchers, clinicians, practitioners, policymakers and parents to explore the evidence, ideas and innovations shaping how we support children and families in the UK.
From infant mental health and attachment to workforce challenges and systems change, Best Beginnings goes beyond the headlines to have the conversations that matter most in early childhood.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Best Beginnings is brought to you by Babyzone, a national charity operating free, evidence-based family hubs across England for families with children aged 0–5.
00:00:00:03 - 00:00:16:00
Unknown
the onset of turn taking and, gaze, can be just a few days after birth, when you, when you're looking at it with, with digital technology, whereas previously people were talking about months, you know, it took months for all of these things to happen.
00:00:16:02 - 00:00:25:17
Unknown
And you need new ways of, of looking at what the baby's doing, in order to understand.
00:00:25:19 - 00:00:54:08
Unknown
By the time a child turns to 80% of their brain, architecture is already in place. The connections that shape how they learn, how they regulate emotions, how they form relationships. Most of that is built before they can even speak in sentences. And yet, as a society, we invest at least in the years that matter most. 1 in 4 children start school without the skills they need to thrive, not because their parents failed them, but because the system did what we have.
00:00:54:08 - 00:01:15:18
Unknown
Baby. What we at Baby Zone have learned from over 86,000 family visits is this. The early years are a time when many parents feel unsure or overwhelmed, even when things are going well, it doesn't always feel easy. But when families have the right support through play, through evidence, informed guidance, through someone, simply saying what your child is doing is completely normal.
00:01:15:23 - 00:01:46:05
Unknown
Everything changes. I'm George and this is Best Beginnings, a podcast brought to you by Baby Zone about what happens in the first five years of life and why it shapes everything that comes after. Each week, I talk to the people who are thinking most deeply about how to give every child the best possible start. Researchers, practitioners, parents, and policymakers not to lecture you about what you should be doing, but to explore together what actually works and what gets in the way.
00:01:46:07 - 00:02:13:19
Unknown
One question we constantly hear from parents is when should my baby start talking? And practitioners are regularly asked to assess whether their child's language development is on track. There's so much focus on the first words, on vocabulary milestones, on speech development, and that makes sense. Language is important. But what if I told you that babies are already communicating in incredibly sophisticated ways long before they say a single word?
00:02:13:21 - 00:02:37:09
Unknown
That eye contact. When you lean over to the cot, the way they reach towards you. The back and forth babbling that sounds like conversation. The pause they leave for you to respond. All of that is communication. And according to my guest today, it's not just a stepping stone to language, it's a separate system altogether. Professor Paul Cetus is emeritus professor of human spoken interaction at the University of Newcastle.
00:02:37:11 - 00:02:59:19
Unknown
His research makes a fascinating argument that the interaction engine and language are two different systems, which we learn to combine when we talk. The interaction engine is how babies communicate with others, and learning it is a prerequisite for learning language itself. Paul was careful to say he's not an early specialist. His expertise is human spoken interaction across all ages and contexts.
00:02:59:21 - 00:03:39:10
Unknown
But that broader perspective is exactly what makes this conversation so valuable. He's spent his career studying how human interaction works is a complex, adaptive system, and what that means for how we communicate from our very first days of life. Paul is also grandfather to six grandchildren, so he brings both academic rigor and lived experience to this conversation. If you're a parent who is worried whether your child is on track with language or an early practitioner wondering what to focus on, an early communication assessment, or a policymaker thinking about where to invest in early support, this episode will give you a completely new framework for understanding what's actually happening in those early months and years.
00:03:39:12 - 00:03:42:12
Unknown
Professor Paul Seed House, welcome to Best Beginnings.
00:03:42:14 - 00:03:45:05
Unknown
Thanks very much, George, and thanks very much for inviting me here.
00:03:45:11 - 00:04:00:04
Unknown
It's great to have you. And you've obviously got this fascinating argument about how the Interaction Engine and language are two separate systems for parents listening who may not be familiar with that concept. Can you explain what the Interaction Engine is?
00:04:00:06 - 00:04:23:16
Unknown
Certainly. Well, first of all, it's, it's not my term. Stephen Levinson introduced the term in 2006, and last year he brought out a book entitled The Interaction Engine. And the way I usually explain it, to adults is, if you imagine how a baby communicates before they learn language, that is the interaction engine.
00:04:23:16 - 00:05:02:21
Unknown
In other words, they're using all of the, facilities that they have, apart from language. So they're using, gaze, they're using, touch, they're using facial expression. Absolutely. Everything at that, disposal in order to try and, and communicate. And the interaction engine isn't static. It changes over time. So it evolves, and you get an adult version of the interaction engine, which has to evolve when language comes in in order to the two system systems integrate, to combine, to work together at, at that point.
00:05:02:23 - 00:05:13:07
Unknown
And you've described the interaction engine as a prerequisite for learning language. So why, does that baby need to learn to interact before they can, learn to talk?
00:05:13:07 - 00:05:30:19
Unknown
Okay. Well, first of all, we know for certain that you do need to interact before you can learn language and the irrefutable evidence is over, you know, a very long time certain very unfortunate, children have been isolated from everybody.
00:05:30:19 - 00:05:53:02
Unknown
They've been put in a room, given food and water for, for some time. And we know that, at the end of that, they, they have not acquired language. People try to teach them language, but it's that they haven't got the basis for it. They don't understand the the social aspect because, you need to learn the interaction engine during the first few years of the.
00:05:53:02 - 00:05:56:07
Unknown
Why is that? That time is, is has passed.
00:05:56:08 - 00:06:05:06
Unknown
So so what happens if a child doesn't develop that strong interaction engine? What are the what is your evidence show or what does that example kind of, give us?
00:06:05:08 - 00:06:20:13
Unknown
Well, the the examples are that they, they don't understand socialization, as they've, they haven't had anybody that during their, their childhood and, what has happened in the past, cases like Kaspar Hauser, they've become very famous.
00:06:20:13 - 00:06:33:09
Unknown
Lots of, linguists come and try and teach them language, but they don't understand what languages. And they, they've lacked the, if you like, the interactional basis for the language
00:06:33:11 - 00:06:43:11
Unknown
and what's happening in the brain, what's happening as they're kind of developing during that process, why is that a fundamental stepping stone for language and for other kind of social interaction?
00:06:43:13 - 00:07:09:11
Unknown
Well, it's it's basically, a lot of it appears to be, time dependent. So, for example, there's a period when, when children learn turn taking. So I'll give you an example from, a grandchild, of mine. So, he was, able to, to crawl and to stand up, but not to, not to walk.
00:07:09:13 - 00:07:36:10
Unknown
And, was just learning isolated words and and the period of, a few weeks, he became absolutely obsessed with turn taking, so, sitting and watching. He was standing up and then he got an object. It's a it's irrelevant what the object is. Can be a piece of wood or a toy. And he looked at it and he looked at me, looked at me, and then he gave it to me, and it seemed like this was the most important thing in the world.
00:07:36:10 - 00:07:53:00
Unknown
So what's he going to do with it? So I got it. I said, oh, thanks very much. Gave it, gave it back to him is absolutely delighted. So. So, let's do it again. So do the same thing. And he'd have gone on for 30 minutes. This was, this was really, fascinating for him, at the time.
00:07:53:04 - 00:08:12:24
Unknown
what's happened? A couple of days later, his mother stood a couple of feet away and then, threw the object to him, and he looked at her on the ground. Didn't understand. So then she repeated that a couple of times, and he still looked at it. And about the fourth time he looked, it goes, oh.
00:08:13:01 - 00:08:34:14
Unknown
So he picked it up and then threw it back to her. Right. So this this was showing that, it's not just, turn taking. It's it's also you can, vary it so it becomes, more attractive to the child, introduce new activities. So turn taking isn't just one thing. It can be a whole range of, of activities.
00:08:34:16 - 00:08:52:19
Unknown
Now, the reason I say that it's a specific period you learn it is that, couple of months later, he came, came to visit, and so I thought I'd try it out again. So get a toy, give it to him, and he goes, no. And runs off. Right. So he's, he's he's gone past that turn taking learning period.
00:08:53:00 - 00:08:57:09
Unknown
It's a bit babyish. Now he's he's going to do more, more complex, things
00:08:57:11 - 00:09:14:07
Unknown
fascinating. And that development pathway and you say sort of forging those connections early and not really understanding the world around you in the environment and other people. And I love that anecdote about your grand grandchildren. How has having lots of grandchildren helped your research?
00:09:14:07 - 00:09:16:03
Unknown
How has it informed the work that you've done?
00:09:16:06 - 00:09:21:12
Unknown
Has it changed your mind or has your research changed how you interact with your grandkids?
00:09:21:14 - 00:09:26:05
Unknown
Well, I don't think my research has changed how I interact with the grandchildren.
00:09:26:07 - 00:09:37:01
Unknown
I basically, spend time, making silly faces at the when, when they're babies. And I think this is, this is really, really important.
00:09:37:03 - 00:10:13:07
Unknown
If we're going to try and understand, what the interaction is for children, we really have to get down to that level and actually learn from them. Because, one thing that I think people often forget, with, with baby communication is that we all learn to do it ourselves right now of course, because, as you mentioned, our brain expands rapidly, our brain changes, and very few people can actually remember anything from the period when they were using only the interaction engine to communicate, because languages come in and kind of kind of taken, taken over.
00:10:13:09 - 00:10:38:00
Unknown
And of course, what you're using as an adult is an adult version of the interaction engine, not the reduced version that, babies are using. I mean, it's worth thinking about the components of the interaction engine, as I'm not sure all you, all of your listeners, are familiar. There are a number of components, but the three main components are turn taking, which of course, or parents understand already.
00:10:38:00 - 00:10:46:13
Unknown
And they observe that their child taking turns with them, sometimes with gaze with with verbalizing, and so on.
00:10:46:18 - 00:10:51:14
Unknown
there's also the organization of repair and sequence organization.
00:10:51:19 - 00:10:56:19
Unknown
Now repair is just dealing with any problem in, in communication
00:10:56:23 - 00:11:01:14
Unknown
unfortunately, all of the work that's been done has been of adults using language.
00:11:01:14 - 00:11:01:24
Unknown
Right?
00:11:01:24 - 00:11:22:05
Unknown
basically you have trouble. And trouble is anything which prevents the communication from going ahead. So it can be the I use a word that you don't understand, or it can be that attention truck has gone past and we can't hear anything. But in either case you might say pardon. So you're initiating repair. And repair is how you then deal with, with problems.
00:11:22:05 - 00:11:39:17
Unknown
And as I say, once you've got language, language itself throws up lots of problems you got to deal with. Now, what what you've got to think of with babies is what is trouble for a baby and what is repair for a baby. And nobody has, looked at that so far. As far as far as I can tell.
00:11:39:19 - 00:12:04:04
Unknown
Now, what's trouble for a baby? Okay, so first of all, they're hungry. What do they do? Well, secondly, they've got, a pain or some discomfort. What do they do? Similarly. But it can also be that, there's some, some danger. They sense danger. Something's going to come in to, take them away, and eat them.
00:12:04:06 - 00:12:14:19
Unknown
And, I know it can be, that they just want some, some company. They really don't like to be left. Left alone. And again, it's all, giving a scream.
00:12:14:19 - 00:12:29:16
Unknown
that we can say, what's trouble? Those things are trouble. And how do they initiate repair? By screaming. Now, of course it then evolves because lots of your parents will say, well, I can tell the difference between a pain scream and, I'm bored.
00:12:29:18 - 00:12:31:01
Unknown
Scream.
00:12:31:03 - 00:12:46:11
Unknown
And so that takes me to the third part of the interaction engine, which is, sequence organization. So it's basically we all take turns and every everybody knows that, it's, what it what do you actually do in, in a turn when you've got it?
00:12:46:13 - 00:12:52:24
Unknown
as an adult, you've got language and you perform a very wide range of social, actions.
00:12:52:24 - 00:13:11:21
Unknown
So let's say you can apologize or you can complain or you can give advice or you can order somebody to do something. And so what we, see then is that as, as babies, develop, they, they develop a greater range of things. So they modify cries to,
00:13:11:23 - 00:13:14:23
Unknown
mean, further things,
00:13:15:00 - 00:13:20:17
Unknown
and the same thing, happens when they develop into, when language, comes along.
00:13:20:22 - 00:13:33:01
Unknown
someone who is currently, sleep training and the four month old, I wonder whether he's going to remember in ten, 20 years time and chastise us for going in, looking at him and then walking back out there. In the scenario that you just described
00:13:33:04 - 00:13:40:07
Unknown
Well, well, it was the 1950s and as you may know, bringing up children in the 1950s, which they got a very strict regime.
00:13:40:07 - 00:13:47:07
Unknown
Don't do what the child, you know, you've got to you've got to get the child into the, into the routine. So that was probably quite normal for, for that
00:13:47:09 - 00:14:05:10
Unknown
and I guess the scenario is you describe sort of crying, wanting food, wanting warmth, wanting proximity to a parent or carer. What about sort of, those environments where they giggling or babbling and sort of looking at you that is that also the interaction engine, kind of the,
00:14:05:12 - 00:14:06:13
Unknown
Yes.
00:14:06:15 - 00:14:29:00
Unknown
Absolutely. So from the developmental point of view, you've got to bear in mind that when they start learning language, it's it's, it's very difficult to get the sounds right. So they need lots and lots of practice in it. So for purely from the linguistic point of view, you've got to spend time, trying out the vocal system and trying to get it to produce particular sounds.
00:14:29:00 - 00:14:37:20
Unknown
So they're always hearing particular sounds, and then then they can practice, copying the approximations of, of those sounds. Yeah.
00:14:37:22 - 00:14:55:17
Unknown
And do you have a point of view or does your research inform any sort of particular milestones do you think parents should be looking for, or are there any other sort of, early identifiers of when things are going well, or when perhaps, you know, an intervention might be required?
00:14:55:19 - 00:15:14:01
Unknown
Well, my view is actually that we need to try and get down to the, the children's, level. So it's it's more important to focus on getting, the parents to interact with the child. And in the case of babbling, I try and babble along, along with the child. And,
00:15:14:01 - 00:15:18:21
Unknown
try and copy what the child is, is doing, and routines.
00:15:19:02 - 00:15:43:05
Unknown
I'll certainly very, very, very important. And, so some of your, listeners, I think, will be, familiar with routines like Peekaboo and peekaboo is a good example because it's actually been researched since the 1950s. Child psychologist Bruner, started with that. And there's research coming out, on it. Now, I don't know if you all your listeners are familiar with it.
00:15:43:05 - 00:16:06:19
Unknown
So peekaboo is, basically you have eye contact with the child, and then the adult covers up their face, either with their hands or best is actually a piece of cloth or hide behind, furniture. And then, the boo bit is, is at the end, you reveal your face, you boo. And then very important is the child's contribution, which is to laugh and, and, enjoy it.
00:16:06:21 - 00:16:14:21
Unknown
And then, some of the latest research shows that, as children go up, they may try actually covering their face up, themselves.
00:16:14:23 - 00:16:25:16
Unknown
Even before that, though, children will often try to remove the cloth so that they're actually interacting. And so very important is also to, make sure whatever you're doing that,
00:16:25:16 - 00:16:31:06
Unknown
the child gets an active role and a sense of agency taking part in it.
00:16:31:08 - 00:16:34:17
Unknown
There's no point in giving lectures to, to a baby.
00:16:34:17 - 00:16:53:00
Unknown
And so babies are in some of our research and some of the, interactions we have with parents that are around, those are going to serve and return moments. And sort of the idea that the child serves through that eye contact and gestures and babbling, and then the adult kind of responds and returns.
00:16:53:02 - 00:16:55:20
Unknown
That's essentially what you mean by the interaction engine.
00:16:56:00 - 00:17:07:05
Unknown
Yes. So yes we call those adjacency pairs in the interaction engine. Question and answer. Offer and acceptance or or rejection of that, of the offer. Yes.
00:17:07:08 - 00:17:13:04
Unknown
And we spoke about routines here. I love that peekaboo example. And it kind of very much resonates from my perspective as well.
00:17:13:05 - 00:17:23:23
Unknown
But, you know, is there anything you think parents can do to research or to think about, okay, how can we make sure that in everyday moments or at home, or when they're sort of, you know,
00:17:24:00 - 00:17:30:09
Unknown
out in the pram, crossing the road, whatever it might be that can help support that interaction engine and support their children's development.
00:17:30:09 - 00:17:30:20
Unknown
Yes.
00:17:30:20 - 00:18:02:10
Unknown
Well, basically, it's much easier now to make, digital, recordings of what's happening all the time. And you can, you can make logs. So if you search online, you'll find various ways of, of logging, child's development. The best book I know of is, David Crystal, Listen to Your Child, which was written actually a long time ago, but he explains how the developmental stages work and how, you can collect, collect data.
00:18:02:14 - 00:18:24:21
Unknown
personally, I think that the, the most important thing is to spend a lot of time interacting with your child and, try and develop your own routines with the child. The personal that personally, the one I developed with my own children at first was, was puffing out, one cheek. You do this, by simply puffing.
00:18:24:23 - 00:18:49:20
Unknown
You have to practice it. But you puff up one cheek like that and then the child stays at it, has no idea what's going on. Then you pull the cheek. And again, they have no idea what's going on, and then you can move from one to another. But the next part, final part is, they then come up to you and they press it, and then you transfer it to the other cheek, you see.
00:18:49:20 - 00:19:00:16
Unknown
So they spend ages pressing one cheek and then another. So it's just an example of, of building up, a routine, but making sure that it's, that it's interactive,
00:19:00:16 - 00:19:08:14
Unknown
That's great. And I think, you know, all of these sorts of things have been on the floor, as you say, getting down on the same level as your child and and playing with them, interacting them.
00:19:08:14 - 00:19:23:07
Unknown
And that's why Babies Zone exists is to give parents and carers that opportunity to do having bonding time with that child so that they, without all the distractions of the busy world and no phones and the doorbell ringing or whatever it might be.
00:19:23:07 - 00:19:38:21
Unknown
we're trying to create a space so that parents can go into really high quality, yes, baby massage classes or, toddler sensory classes. Yes, more active all class kind of thing that they're actually seeing these moments with their children, and building that bond.
00:19:38:21 - 00:20:00:03
Unknown
I think that's, that's an excellent approach. And, not all parents do that though, I'm sure we've we've all met people, I've met, relatives and so on who say, oh, all this, this baby stuff and, but basically, bring them back to me when they can speak well and, and then I'll have a conversation.
00:20:00:03 - 00:20:19:06
Unknown
And before that, you know, I'm okay. I'm not getting involved in this. So I think, this this is not the approach. If you don't interact with the children, they won't learn language at all. If that. If they're left to, on their own. So it's, it's essential to actually try and get down to the children's level
00:20:19:07 - 00:20:24:02
Unknown
and play with them and understand what, what is interesting, to them.
00:20:24:02 - 00:20:47:04
Unknown
And as I say, we've all been through that stage. We can't remember much about it. But, sometimes I think the, the, the people who are, who communicate best with babies are their slightly older siblings, and that's because they have some residual memory of what the you know, what the interaction engine is, is like for, for a baby.
00:20:47:06 - 00:20:55:10
Unknown
And so that I kind of better at getting down to, to their level and explaining things. And as we grow older, we, we forget about it.
00:20:55:10 - 00:21:05:18
Unknown
it's also self-image. Lots of people, are stuck in the idea that I'm a serious, professional person and everybody has to take me seriously, and I'm never going to change, change that.
00:21:05:18 - 00:21:15:21
Unknown
We have that problem in, language teaching, as well, because when you were learning a foreign language, you make all kinds of idiotic errors and say embarrassing things.
00:21:15:21 - 00:21:26:15
Unknown
lots of people can't change their self-image. So say that, you know, I'm told, extend some purposes. I'm an idiot. And in the foreign language and and the foreign and the foreign culture.
00:21:26:17 - 00:21:29:16
Unknown
So you really have to change, change your image and
00:21:29:16 - 00:21:32:22
Unknown
trying to experience life more as a baby.
00:21:32:24 - 00:21:58:05
Unknown
So I'm. My mind is stuck on Mr. Banks and Mary Poppins and thinking of the evolution of his parenting journey and the kind of interaction with his children. It's fascinating for what you're describing and especially talking about your work, your think about human spoken interaction across multiple different contexts and cultures, you know, does Interaction Engine differ, in different cultures or, or is it kind of universal in the way that it's deployed?
00:21:58:10 - 00:22:13:21
Unknown
all of the evidence is that the interaction engine is universal. There is some cultural variation, of course, but you have to understand how the two systems work together. The interaction engine and language. There are about 7000 languages at the moment.
00:22:13:23 - 00:22:43:08
Unknown
Whilst there's one universal interaction engine and this is paid dividends in terms of human evolution. So in terms of evolution, the reason is, as humans have, moved around the world, they've, they've had to develop new cultures in order to change in order to develop into new climate, new foodstuff, new flora and fauna, and part of developing a new culture is developing a new language which which describes that as well.
00:22:43:10 - 00:22:48:04
Unknown
So humans have been successful in colonizing all parts of the Earth.
00:22:48:04 - 00:23:08:11
Unknown
And some are even living on, on Antarctica. And developing different languages has been part of that. But, we've always had the backdrop of the universal interaction engine, and people have always met foreigners and they can't speak. So what do they do? They start gesticulating wildly to each other.
00:23:08:11 - 00:23:33:22
Unknown
We still have I've got non-verbal communication, the interaction engine, but certain basic assumptions. We're trying to we're trying to interact with each other. And so, and it's also interesting what's happened. And over the last few decades and we've got globalized megacities, right? Where, people have come together who can't speak each other's languages. It doesn't mean they've ended up killing each other.
00:23:34:00 - 00:23:44:01
Unknown
They've actually managed because they've got the same interaction engine. They've still managed to be able to, to get on with each other and carry on life in, in a, in a mega city.
00:23:44:03 - 00:23:56:16
Unknown
And, if you'd asked in the 1960s if that was possible, they'd say, oh, no, don't be ridiculous. You can't have all these, these people living together and actually, getting on even though they speak, speak different languages.
00:23:56:16 - 00:24:13:24
Unknown
So, the, the other evidence for the interaction engine, Steven Levinson, who's whose term it is, did a very large, large scale research project looking at turn taking and, sequence organization, and repair,
00:24:14:00 - 00:24:22:09
Unknown
each of the three projects was looking at ten completely unrelated languages, different language families. They gathered lots of data of people, conversing.
00:24:22:13 - 00:24:53:21
Unknown
And they concluded they were all using the same basic system. You get some differences, of course. So one example, for example, is that, in different cultures you see different amounts of non-verbal communication. Some people do you get to stimulate a lot, some people quite, but you also see changes over time. You see, I've been working for Chinese students for many decades, and at first they, they were very few facial expressions had been brought up, very few facial expressions, very few gestures.
00:24:54:02 - 00:25:06:17
Unknown
And now you see them using going around. You may take taking selfies. You know, our students are using much more non-verbal communication, the Chinese ones and than they did to a few decades ago.
00:25:06:20 - 00:25:18:20
Unknown
Fascinating how it's evolving. What about in households where there's kind of multiple languages of multiple cultures? In place? Is there any sort of noticeable kind of changes there, or is it the same as what you're describing?
00:25:18:24 - 00:25:27:07
Unknown
Well, the interaction engine is is a is understandable. We're we're using the same basic assumptions in the same basic frameworks.
00:25:27:07 - 00:25:42:22
Unknown
So for the last, I guess, 18 years, I've been working with students from all over the world who come to study at Newcastle University, and I teach them, the basics of the interaction engine, which is this conversation analysis.
00:25:42:24 - 00:26:14:12
Unknown
So this is how turn taking works in English. Is it the same in Chinese? In Thai? In a variety of languages. And they say, yes, this is basically the same. So I've never had any students say it's different. Now, of course you get cultural variations. So for example, in, the norm in English is you make somebody an invitation and they either reject it or they agree to it, or sometimes they defer it because they've got to get more, more information.
00:26:14:15 - 00:26:34:14
Unknown
In some cultures, the idea is that you should say no twice and agree on the third. The third time of being asked. Okay. So it's a cultural variation. It's not a big one. You still get the same, the same and, end result. So of course, of course. Cultural, variations exist. And that makes life interesting, doesn't it?
00:26:34:16 - 00:26:47:21
Unknown
Absolutely. And what about children who may interact differently? So you may have children that are neurodivergent, or have developmental differences. How should we think about the interaction engine for those children?
00:26:47:21 - 00:26:53:18
Unknown
I think we should think about the interaction engine and language together because, it's it's very useful.
00:26:53:18 - 00:27:00:21
Unknown
we have, a way of confirming so we can say yes by nodding our head or just or saying yes.
00:27:00:23 - 00:27:06:03
Unknown
And if one doesn't work, then we can use the other one. We can combine the two. And it's the same with,
00:27:06:04 - 00:27:16:21
Unknown
neurodivergent children. Some may use non-verbal communication rather more. Some may use, language. Rather more. So we have lots of, opportunities,
00:27:16:21 - 00:27:26:16
Unknown
what we call, using different learning styles, using different learning strategies, because we have a number of different ways in which we can, can communicate
00:27:26:17 - 00:27:45:01
Unknown
know that some children will use non-verbal communication more than language. So I have, one, granddaughter who wasn't particularly interested in, in, in talking, but she was very precise. She knew exactly what she wanted, and everybody knew exactly what she wanted through non-verbal communication.
00:27:45:01 - 00:27:49:09
Unknown
So she was extremely good at it. Now she's decided to to talk.
00:27:49:15 - 00:28:10:21
Unknown
What about for those parents that are told or think that their child isn't interacting in the same way, or sort of where they should be, given the age and sort of the peers? Is there anything that you've identified or anything, any sort of advice that you might have for parents that are trying to have this kind of interaction with their children and things aren't working as they're expecting?
00:28:10:21 - 00:28:16:02
Unknown
Well, my advice is to, try to relax about it.
00:28:16:05 - 00:28:29:21
Unknown
The thing is to concentrate on the interaction engine, giving them as much interaction and as varied interaction, as you can, spending time with them on that and, language will, invariably, come,
00:28:29:21 - 00:28:35:12
Unknown
I've seen lots of lots of children who haven't, just wanted to, wanted to speak,
00:28:35:14 - 00:28:47:01
Unknown
and, and they, you know, ten years later, you would have no idea that there was there had been some delay in, in using language in the, in their childhood.
00:28:47:03 - 00:29:10:09
Unknown
And there's a lot of concern at the moment and a lot of debate around screen time and speech delays. And there's obviously a lot of research out there around kind of every 30 minutes of extra, screen time, children under two are significantly more likely to have language delays. So from an interaction engine standpoint, what does that mean if children are watching screens or their parents are watching the screens instead of interacting with their children?
00:29:10:09 - 00:29:37:03
Unknown
Well, I, I agree, you've really got to limit the, the screen time. You can give them an hour a day. And, I know some parents are, are implementing, that, but it's, it's really they, they can't learn the interaction engine without interacting with the children, and, and adults, so they've got to be given the opportunity to that, and, unfortunately, the, online stuff is addictive.
00:29:37:05 - 00:29:49:02
Unknown
So we know very well those, tech bro who went on telly saying it's not a, it's a problem, but it's not addictive. Well, most children, in my experience, do do find it, find it addictive.
00:29:49:08 - 00:29:58:18
Unknown
Yeah, we find it. Again, comes up a lot with interacting with parents. They're worried about how to deal with it, how to best regulate it.
00:29:58:20 - 00:30:09:18
Unknown
Obviously there are benefits to it. As you were describing. You can record special moments with your children. But we know it's very pervasive, and we know there's a lot of research that's being done around the impact of screen time.
00:30:09:21 - 00:30:18:08
Unknown
Another thing that we're doing at Baby Zone, we've developed a program called Nest. It stands for name empathize, self-regulate and Team Up.
00:30:18:10 - 00:30:43:11
Unknown
So it's about helping parents and children build social emotional skills through simple, repeatable routines like the ones you were describing naming feelings as well, and pausing for calm, repairing connections like you described from your perspective on interaction. Why might these kinds of emotional connections, and exchanges be just as important as verbal development?
00:30:43:11 - 00:30:44:13
Unknown
yeah. Okay.
00:30:44:13 - 00:30:53:18
Unknown
So I didn't say earlier why? I think there are two separate, systems, the interaction engine, and language.
00:30:53:19 - 00:30:58:24
Unknown
So one of the, the main reasons is that they fulfill different functions.
00:30:59:01 - 00:31:11:17
Unknown
So the interaction engine is a social system. It, so children have to learn, that position within, family and within a broader, community.
00:31:11:23 - 00:31:16:00
Unknown
And it's also a system for understanding other people.
00:31:16:00 - 00:31:37:21
Unknown
That is, how you make meaning. So other people understand you and vice versa. Now, the important thing is there is nothing in language at all which teaches you those two things that purely from the interaction engine and as the interaction engine has to be universal, if you like, so that you can learn these things before you learn language.
00:31:37:23 - 00:31:49:08
Unknown
the second stage is once you've, learned the interaction engine, you're then able to learn language and things, then get, a lot more difficult because you're having to integrate the second system.
00:31:49:08 - 00:31:57:18
Unknown
language is a system for information processing. You can store any information that you want in language and transmit it.
00:31:57:18 - 00:32:10:21
Unknown
But first of all, you've got to have the social basis and the the understanding base we call into subjectivity. But it's, it's basically how people can understand, each other.
00:32:10:23 - 00:32:30:24
Unknown
language is a system of information storage. And, these two things happened at rather different times. So, Stephen Levinson says that the, interaction engine may go back 2 million years to early humans, whereas most of the estimates for language is 100,000 years plus.
00:32:30:24 - 00:32:56:06
Unknown
So it's it's relatively, relatively recent, but then having this vast information store, which we can all transmit to each other, made for enormous progress by humans when they went around the world and found that they could, do things, even they could kill mammoths and these giant things by teamwork, by by communication and working out how to do, a task, together.
00:32:56:08 - 00:33:10:22
Unknown
in other words, you they have to be, they have to be two separate systems because they're fulfilling very different tasks. And you can't dump an information system on a baby, right? They've got to learn the social and understanding.
00:33:10:24 - 00:33:20:14
Unknown
The interaction engine first before they can start, absorbing the information. And that's, that's probably why we're forgetting about the baby information engine.
00:33:20:18 - 00:33:28:08
Unknown
We have to change our minds to deal with this, this massive information that we're getting, we're getting through, language
00:33:28:08 - 00:33:43:15
Unknown
other reasons for thinking the two separate systems is that they can both exist as systems separately. So language can exist without the interaction engine in writing, in sign language, in song, and so on.
00:33:43:17 - 00:34:00:19
Unknown
And the interaction engine can exist separately from language, as we know, with, with babies, who are not using language, at the start. But also in other cases, so, for example, people who've had strokes which have knocked out language in the brain,
00:34:00:19 - 00:34:08:17
Unknown
Charles Goodwin did one of the best studies I've ever seen, of, a man who could only say three words of language which were.
00:34:08:18 - 00:34:27:00
Unknown
Yes, no, and, and but the interaction engine was perfectly intact, hadn't been affected by the stroke at all. And, he uses video to show that this man was able to carry out conversations with other people by using the interaction engine, but with and with only three words of language.
00:34:27:00 - 00:34:30:12
Unknown
So the the systems, are different.
00:34:30:12 - 00:34:52:20
Unknown
They also work in different ways. That's why they have to be, separate. So the interaction engine works in a normative way, whereas the, language works, works in a statistical way. So we're always having to predict what's the next word going to be. And we do that because we have huge statistical knowledge of the language
00:34:52:20 - 00:34:53:22
Unknown
that doesn't always show.
00:34:53:22 - 00:34:58:00
Unknown
But that's, that's the way that, that language works.
00:34:58:02 - 00:35:24:20
Unknown
That's fascinating. And I guess if there is one thing for policymakers to derive from that, as we're thinking about early years education system and how we support parents understanding, how to navigate a path through their children's first years, which is the government recently developed, that white paper talking about schools and sort of providing expert at hand, speech and language therapists into schools in earlier settings.
00:35:24:22 - 00:35:37:20
Unknown
I guess if you were, to know, based on your research, what would you want those experts to focus on? What would you want policymakers? To identify to sort of support children better than we're doing currently?
00:35:38:00 - 00:35:59:21
Unknown
Yes. Well, I'd I point out the, the dangers of screen time as, as you've mentioned and also the experience that we've had with, with Covid, which I think you you've mentioned, but, lots of people witnessed, serious harm to, to children during that point and, teachers, a point out, like scenes in socialization with a group that,
00:35:59:23 - 00:36:01:13
Unknown
that went through Covid.
00:36:01:15 - 00:36:27:24
Unknown
What what also, I'd say, is, invest in research on the early years because, there's been, very little done, on it. And now is the time because, recently people have started using digital technology, very tiny cameras, with babies and, with artificial intelligence. And the results tell us,
00:36:27:24 - 00:36:35:06
Unknown
I owe this to my, my colleague Keith Richards, who's, research this for our, article we're working on at the moment.
00:36:35:08 - 00:36:41:03
Unknown
It shows in all cases that babies are doing these things much earlier than was previously suspected.
00:36:41:06 - 00:36:57:03
Unknown
the onset of turn taking and, gaze, can be just a few days after birth, when you, when you're looking at it with, with digital technology, whereas previously people were talking about months, you know, it took months for all of these things to happen.
00:36:57:05 - 00:37:04:15
Unknown
And you need new ways of, of looking at what the baby's doing, in order to understand.
00:37:04:17 - 00:37:12:18
Unknown
what's happened is the techniques had been imported from adults who speak language and kind of transplanted, and they don't work, very well.
00:37:12:20 - 00:37:19:23
Unknown
So now is a it's a really exciting time for, for, for exploring, baby, communication.
00:37:19:23 - 00:37:22:00
Unknown
So, to invest in that,
00:37:22:03 - 00:37:44:17
Unknown
I keep on saying it's, that, the interaction engine is, is the Cinderella, of, communication because language has taken everything in terms of research, and and budget and, Stephen Levinson, the invented the term in 2006. Before that, we just saying, oh, it's what babies do before language, you know?
00:37:44:19 - 00:37:52:10
Unknown
So, there's a great deal that can be, researched and, and learned there. And we now have the technology, to do it.
00:37:52:14 - 00:38:13:02
Unknown
Yeah. I think that's a great message and a great reminder that we need to do more research. We know how important these, these are, the neural connections, but also, as you say, being able to identify and observe changes of behavior, and seeing children develop. We need the evidence base. We need to help it, to help ensure we get continued funding in this vital time.
00:38:13:07 - 00:38:26:14
Unknown
to pull your book is called human spoken interaction as a complex adaptive system. It's hard to it might sound intimidating, to some parents listening, but what does it actually mean about interaction as a complex adaptive system?
00:38:26:14 - 00:38:30:06
Unknown
And why does it matter for understanding how we can better communicate?
00:38:30:06 - 00:38:56:09
Unknown
So basically, complexity science means that we're looking at life related systems. And so, instead of saying that, what happens before language is, is a mess, you instead try to understand it as a system. And it's a system. Certainly. Parents generally believe it's a system. You know, they, they work out how they're going to communicate with the child, and it develops, over time.
00:38:56:09 - 00:39:12:21
Unknown
So it's a matter of, describing, how the system works and how the, how it develops. And, language, by contrast, has been studied as a system, actually for thousands of years, usually based on written language. So rather than, rather than talk.
00:39:12:23 - 00:39:14:07
Unknown
I think. Thank you so much.
00:39:14:08 - 00:39:16:21
Unknown
I've got some quickfire questions to ask as well.
00:39:16:21 - 00:39:21:23
Unknown
So if you could describe the interaction engine in just one word, what would it be?
00:39:22:00 - 00:39:24:14
Unknown
How we communicate without language.
00:39:24:16 - 00:39:29:08
Unknown
What's the single most important interaction skill a baby needs to learn?
00:39:29:10 - 00:39:30:22
Unknown
Eye contact.
00:39:30:24 - 00:39:35:16
Unknown
What's the best piece of advice you'd give a parent of a newborn about communication?
00:39:35:18 - 00:39:37:19
Unknown
Have fun and see the world from their eyes.
00:39:37:23 - 00:39:39:06
Unknown
Through their eyes.
00:39:39:08 - 00:39:43:11
Unknown
What's the biggest myth that you, hear about babies learning to talk?
00:39:43:13 - 00:39:48:17
Unknown
That it's irrelevant. It's all about language. And who cares what happens before language?
00:39:48:19 - 00:39:52:22
Unknown
What is something that your grandchildren taught you? That your research didn't?
00:39:52:24 - 00:40:19:14
Unknown
So, we've now got, grandson who's just learning his first few words. And so, my wife, says to him after he's had his main meal, do you want, chocolate or melon? Right. And discovered that whatever you ask him, it's always the last thing that he chooses. So it's always melon. And if it was inverted, he'd always choose chocolate.
00:40:19:17 - 00:40:39:13
Unknown
Right. So he's, learning the interaction engine. He knows that when you ask that question, you're supposed to give an answer, but he hasn't quite got to the sophisticate, the choice element within the question. So we're now trying to observe when is he going to figure that out and start saying, I want chocolate, even when it's mentioned first.
00:40:39:13 - 00:40:41:13
Unknown
So that's to be discerned.
00:40:41:15 - 00:40:53:02
Unknown
was going to say, very healthy child choosing melon over chocolate. I'm sure that won't last forever. Paul, thank you so much for your time today. It's been a fascinating conversation. Thank you.
00:40:53:04 - 00:41:16:21
Unknown
what I'm taking from this conversation is that in the past, we've probably been looking at the wrong thing or at least we've been looking at only part of the picture parents and practitioners are focusing on when their child starts talking, assessing vocabulary. Policymakers are investing in language programs or of that matters. But we're missing what's happening in front of us.
00:41:16:23 - 00:41:35:03
Unknown
The interaction pulls. Research shows us that babies are communicating long before they have words. They're taking turns, they're reading cuz they're responding. They're initiating. That's the interaction engine at work. And it's just as important, in fact, maybe more important than when the words eventually come.
00:41:35:05 - 00:41:41:20
Unknown
So for parents should reframe when they have worries. And for practitioners it changes what we should be assessing potentially.
00:41:42:01 - 00:42:00:01
Unknown
And policymakers suggest we should be investing in supporting early interaction, not just language development, baby. So we see families where children aren't talking yet, but they're making eye contact, responding, and forming relationships in their own way. And that's the foundation that everything else is built on.
00:42:00:03 - 00:42:04:17
Unknown
if you remember one thing, that interaction isn't preparation for communication.
00:42:04:17 - 00:42:10:11
Unknown
It is communication. And it deserves attention, investment and research and all respect.
00:42:10:13 - 00:42:27:01
Unknown
Paul, thank you so much for joining me. And thank you for listening to Best Beginnings, a Baby own podcast, for more evidence informed support on babies and the early years, do subscribe to the channel. If you found it helpful, please share this with someone who you think might need it or find it interesting.
00:42:27:03 - 00:42:29:02
Unknown
We'll see you next time. Thanks.
00:42:29:04 - 00:42:29:09
Unknown
We.