Houselights from The State News

In the first episode of the new season, co-hosts Liz Nass and Claire Donohoe talk about the nuance of separating art from the artist as well as who is to "blame" for parasocial relationships.

What is Houselights from The State News?

The State News discusses issues and the cultural impact of entertainment news including TV & film, fashion, music and more.

Liz Nass:

Welcome back to House Lights, your one stop shop for everything you need to hear about this week in the world of entertainment. My name is Liz Nas, and we are back for I don't even know what season at this point. We're back for my 3rd year of House Slides. And I keep thinking that they're gonna kick me off and I keep thinking that I'm not gonna be able to come back and yet they still can't get rid of me, which is super exciting. And what's even more exciting is that I am back with a new permanent co host, miss Claire Donahoe.

Liz Nass:

Hi, everyone. You, of course, remember her from the Things That We Don't Understand episode as well as our polarization about Taylor Swift Yes. Podcast that we did. Tell me how you're feeling, Claire.

Claire Donohoe:

I'm feeling good. I'm a little nervous, but I'm excited to be back permanently.

Liz Nass:

Permanently. She's never leaving. You can't leave me now. So that's kinda how it goes. Okay.

Liz Nass:

We're just actually, me and Claire were talking about this the other day. Like, we're, like, kind of tied to each other eternally this

Claire Donohoe:

I see Liz every single day, and when I don't see her, I'm trying to contact her. And when I'm not trying to contact her, I'm thinking about contacting her. So

Liz Nass:

And I'm sitting at her house, and you were sitting in my house watching Planet of the Apes and Babe last night.

Claire Donohoe:

Yes. I was.

Liz Nass:

There's a double feature for your English class, which really doesn't make any sense to me because I can't think of, like, 2 different kind of movies.

Claire Donohoe:

Okay. Well, they're incredibly different. Yes. But the unit is on, like, animals and gardening, which once again makes a little bit of sense for an English class, but we're, like, reading

Liz Nass:

about it. Did not garden walks.

Claire Donohoe:

Right. No. But I had to watch Babe, and Jack had to watch planet of the apes. Hence, double feature.

Liz Nass:

Yes. They

Claire Donohoe:

both just, like, supported one another

Liz Nass:

through that

Claire Donohoe:

experience, and then you were able to

Liz Nass:

I was able to join for planet of the apes. I do not care about babe. I don't care about pigs.

Claire Donohoe:

Woah. I

Liz Nass:

just, like, don't, like I mean, that's, like, not an animal that I'm, like, like, oh, I wanna watch a full movie. Okay. You know what? Charles Webb is good.

Claire Donohoe:

I don't remember much of it, but I guess that's, like, the closest thing I could think of to babe. Yeah. But it was emotional. Jack and I mostly made fun of it, but it was emotional enough. I mean, I just had the discussion about it, like, an hour ago.

Liz Nass:

So Did you have any insight on Babe?

Claire Donohoe:

I mean, it's it's a children's movie. So I felt a little bit silly talking about it in class, but we talked about animal hierarchy. And then one of my groupmates said it's the kind of children's version of Animal Farm, which I thought was a crazy but accurate person. So that's what I've been up to all day, talking about it talking about writing about for class. And then Planet of the Apes was just jarring Oh, so good.

Claire Donohoe:

On all fronts. I've never seen that before.

Liz Nass:

I feel like I've always made fun of people who are like, Planet of the Apes is so cool. And, like, I feel like like saying this, I feel super male. I feel super boy to be like, I loved Planet of the Apes. Like, I absolutely I've never seen it before and I absolutely loved it.

Claire Donohoe:

And will you be watching the sequels?

Liz Nass:

Yes. Of course, I will be. And I think Jack, like, won't allow me to, like, not watch it with him. Because, like, now I feel like I've got Jack Williams, of course, is the same news. Mhmm.

Liz Nass:

Our columnist and cartoonist. Like, now that he, like, lives with me, like, he's just not going to allow me to not watch the Planet of the Apes series because, like, he's already talking about the next one. He owns all of them on DVD, which is, like

Claire Donohoe:

That was the first thing he said when our teacher, like, our professor was talking about it. He's like, I actually have that on DVD. I'm like, okay.

Liz Nass:

Okay. I guess movie night.

Claire Donohoe:

And so movie night we had, and it was wonderful. And I would never watch either of those movies on my own, so I'm glad that I was welcomed into your house.

Liz Nass:

Into the humble snooze house.

Claire Donohoe:

The boat great time.

Liz Nass:

Nice. No. I'm like, James I the one thing that I wanna take away from this site isn't about, like, domesticity and anything, like, super serious about the movie and, you know, how revolutions breed. One thing that I do wanna take away from that is James Franco did not age well.

Claire Donohoe:

Okay. Let's let's get into this a little bit because I made the mistake of saying to the room, what's so bad about James Franco except from aside from the obvious stuff? And then everyone in unison said the obvious stuff.

Liz Nass:

And I

Claire Donohoe:

was, like, well, yes. That

Liz Nass:

He was, like, I don't know what James and we were actually in this conversation.

Claire Donohoe:

You said it well. He's used to skis, and he deserved to age not that well because

Liz Nass:

I don't even know what he did. Like, we were just in the newsroom, and Hannah Locke, the other great reporter. She was, like, I don't know what he did, but I just feel like he has done something.

Claire Donohoe:

And I agree. So I mean, we could Google this.

Liz Nass:

We could research it, but it's way better to just, like, not know and just, like, talk about it, like, super unresearched and just, like, not know anything and still air our opinions on it. And that's what House Lights is about.

Claire Donohoe:

Welcome, everyone.

Liz Nass:

Welcome. Where we don't research anything and just go off of vibes only.

Claire Donohoe:

Hey. I referenced one article in my notes for today.

Liz Nass:

So Good. Look at you. How about that? One more thing about playing the games. Jameis Franco should not have had that baddie girlfriend.

Liz Nass:

And that baddie girlfriend didn't really have anything to say in the movie, and then she was, like, really worried. And I'm like,

Claire Donohoe:

Ironic because, or is it ironic? Because she was, like, the ape vet. Yeah. She should've been saying the most. And then all of a sudden, she just almost fake throws herself off a bridge so James Franco can run down the bridge.

Liz Nass:

And and James Franco didn't even do anything when he ran down the bridge.

Claire Donohoe:

Yeah. It it

Liz Nass:

is He literally just went and was, like, looking at Caesar starting a revolution.

Claire Donohoe:

Caesar could kill him with 1 just, like, blow to the face.

Liz Nass:

You were so cool. And now Jax says that the monkeys are gonna have guns in the next one?

Claire Donohoe:

That's horrifying.

Liz Nass:

That's so exciting. Like, it's just I'm so excited. I will say,

Claire Donohoe:

just final note on Planet of the Apes. Liz, just gonna echo her excitement. Multiple times, she was like, my god. I'm worried about them. Like, I just look over and she's, like, biting her nails.

Claire Donohoe:

She's like she's like, no. Like, they'd fall, and then I just catch her, like, gasping or, like, clenching her fist.

Liz Nass:

I'm actually named after a character from What? No way. No way. Movie that much. That's so like, the old one.

Liz Nass:

Yeah. Taylor. Yeah. That's amazing. Incredible.

Liz Nass:

Was the was it was the ape super wise? I don't even know. I should Because, like, they're all, like, super wise. I was just wondering if maybe you were, like, the wisest. I don't know if it was the main character

Claire Donohoe:

or an ape. I don't know.

Liz Nass:

I should Wow. This is so exciting. This is awesome. Guys, Planet of the Apes. It reaches us all in different shows.

Liz Nass:

Yeah. I have chills. I have chills. That's insane. But, yeah, I don't have anything else to say about Planet of the Apes other than it might be misogynistic because Batty Girlfriend didn't have anything to say.

Claire Donohoe:

Definitely had its, like, holes, but it's alright. Most most of them do. I do think yeah. Yeah. Just to close on that.

Claire Donohoe:

Her role was strange to me because she was extremely knowledgeable and could have been a complete asset to the fact that they didn't understand how the apes were taking over. But let's use her as a distraction so we can continue running aimlessly towards the creatures that could kill us instantly as they are seizing our weapons and pushing us off of the Golden Gate Bridge. Is that what that was?

Liz Nass:

Yes. It sure was.

Claire Donohoe:

It just felt like a strange move on the director's end, but I hey. I was just there to take notes.

Liz Nass:

So And I can't wait to watch the next one. And, Clare, you're invited.

Claire Donohoe:

Oh my god. Thank you.

Liz Nass:

Just wondering why you'd ask. Yeah. Alright. Should we get into our topic for the day?

Claire Donohoe:

That wasn't it?

Liz Nass:

I'm just kidding. Yep. Alright, guys. And that was housemates for this week.

Claire Donohoe:

Thank you so much for listening. Just kidding.

Liz Nass:

Just kidding.

Claire Donohoe:

We have lots to discuss. We Super serious content here.

Liz Nass:

You know, me and Claire, we're, you know, we're like 2 peas in a pod. We're like yin and yang, and we were coming up with ideas. So stupid. We were coming up with ideas, you know, because we wanna we wanna elevate House Lights this season, guys. You know?

Liz Nass:

We're Sure. We're on a different level this this season. And we were like, we should talk about some real stuff in the entertainment world. And so we're gonna talk about separating the art from the artist. This is true.

Liz Nass:

This is true. And, honestly, Claire, what a good start to you being my permanent co host as you did almost all the research for this.

Claire Donohoe:

Well, hey. You started the doc, and you have some really good points right here at the top I'm looking at. So would you like to start with your Sure.

Liz Nass:

Of course, I'll start. Your main intro to this concept and your your highlighted celebrities

Claire Donohoe:

I think artists.

Liz Nass:

I think Artists. I guess my main thought about separating that from the artist I mean, I don't know if I have to, like maybe yeah. Let me define it. So it's just like Please. Oh, the idea is that you can be able to listen to someone's music or, you know, be able to watch a movie that someone's made without thinking about, like, them as, like, a person.

Liz Nass:

You can just appreciate their art without thinking about them as the artist. And, you know, sometimes people just do this in general, so they don't, like, have preconceptions of, like, what a director or a singer songwriter has made in the past. But I think most of it comes from, like, you know, this person has been canceled or they're kind of, like, an annoying person, but they make really great art. And so is it, like, is it okay to still listen to their art and, like, is it okay to still appreciate the art that they make? So my honestly, most of mine are, like, the ones that I brought up in the beginning Mhmm.

Liz Nass:

Is, like, people that are mostly just, like, annoying that I don't like, but their art is really good.

Claire Donohoe:

Yeah.

Liz Nass:

But there are definitely and I think you're probably gonna get into it also. Like, people that are actually, like, problematic. Like,

Claire Donohoe:

more serious

Liz Nass:

More serious

Claire Donohoe:

how locations where you'd have to, like Right. Really look to sever.

Liz Nass:

Really look to sever the ties there.

Claire Donohoe:

Yeah. And Like, being annoying, quote, unquote, or, like, just being weird. Because, like, lots almost all artists are strange.

Liz Nass:

Like, that's

Claire Donohoe:

just part of how it goes, which is fine.

Liz Nass:

Especially once they have fame. Like, they're yeah. They're going crazy.

Claire Donohoe:

They're going crazy, which, hey, good luck to them. They make great art. But, yeah, there's definitely something to be said about kind of the spectrum. But, yeah, we'll get into that.

Liz Nass:

So my so I'm gonna start on the low spectrum of this, which is Lizzie McAlpine, who we both love dearly. This is true. I love Lizzie McAlpine, but I will say and I don't know if you wanna I think you're gonna wanna comment on this. Okay. I feel like she gives off Mean Girl energy.

Liz Nass:

Like, she just, like, tweets things that are, like, very complaining about having fame and, like, she disparaged, like, her whole, she disparaged, like, her whole last album, made fans feel bad for really liking that album. And being, like, well, if you only like the song ceilings, then maybe you shouldn't come to my next show. Just being like, oh, yeah. This album's just on, like, a totally different level than everything. So, like, sort of disparaging the fans that were really, like, a fan of her because of this album that she made.

Liz Nass:

And then she'll post things that are just complaining about fans coming up to her on tour or people, you know it just, like, just complaining about, like, her tour in general, asking people to not, like, not, you know, attack her ex boyfriend, which is, like, totally normal. Fans should not be attacking ex boyfriends since they don't know what's going on. But also, like, I'm pretty sure that they were just, like, sort of, like, supporting her and asking her what's going on. She was, like, guys, stop. So it's, like, every it's not about, like, those 1 or 2 interactions.

Liz Nass:

It's just that, like, if you go through specifically her Twitter, everything is just, like, a complaint and just sort of, like, mean. And so I just wanna know what you think about that.

Claire Donohoe:

So I was talking to my roommates about this yesterday because I was asking them if they had any insight on, like, artist's art situation. And I'm not gonna get the exact wording right, but someone said something that I was like, there it is, about Lizzie McAlpine. Because lots of my roommates are fans of her as well. And it was like, we think she doesn't she loves singing. She loves making music.

Claire Donohoe:

She loves writing. She doesn't like performing, which is a huge part of her job, and she doesn't like her job. And I think that informs a lot of, like, how she presents. She's even come into interviews saying, like, I just I don't like touring. I don't like performing.

Claire Donohoe:

That's why it, like, feels inauthentic. I just think, like, she got famous and, like, that's just what you have to do. It's like like we're talking about. This is low stakes. There's an element where it's like, well, okay.

Claire Donohoe:

You don't like touring. You're maybe not in the best mood all the time at your shows. Okay. You're not, like, a terrible human being. I'm not gonna, like, fault you or, like, be like, I don't like you.

Claire Donohoe:

I'm not gonna go to your show, for example. But, yeah, with her specifically, I'm like I try to give her the benefit of the doubt because I'm like, I just think you don't like doing this. You like the music. You like the art. Yeah.

Claire Donohoe:

But don't you as, like, an artist persona. Like, you don't like it. And we can even talk about, like, Chapel Roan

Liz Nass:

Right.

Claire Donohoe:

Who We need to Yeah. She's been, like, pioneering the whole she's been quoted saying, like, this is my job. I love music. I love, you know, writing, creating music. That's why that's how I got here, but this is my job.

Claire Donohoe:

And then she you know, hindsight, she was like, if this affects my family, my friends, I'm stepping down, and then look what happened. Also, because people are crazy, which is a whole parasocial thing, which is, like, not the topic

Liz Nass:

of today's

Claire Donohoe:

thing, but that's also that informs a lot of this because people get really attached to the idea that they know someone or they can build this relationship with someone, and then they're very upset when it's wrong. And then now granted that's stakes. They're upset to find out Lizzie McAlpine might be a little bit rude. Okay. That's different than finding out someone is, like, saying horrific things publicly

Liz Nass:

Right.

Claire Donohoe:

Or, like, doing terrible stuff.

Liz Nass:

So you don't fault Lizzie McAlpine at all for not saying that she wants to, you know, saying that she she doesn't really wanna connect with fans after the show because it's it's a lot to her or, you know, enjoying touring.

Claire Donohoe:

Like, I

Liz Nass:

feel like at some point when you make music and you put it out and you say that you're going on tour, you kind of owe your fans sort of a little bit of respect if I'm being honest.

Claire Donohoe:

Well, see, that goes into this whole which is another kind of separate, like, branch of this conversation of, like, who do you make art for? Mhmm. Like, what does listening to Galpine owe us? What do these artists, whether they're singers, actors, like, what do they owe us? It's like this might sound like a strange take, and it's obviously more complex than what I'm about to say, but, like, they didn't plan to get famous.

Claire Donohoe:

I don't view her as, like, a performer. The way I view, like, Chapel Rohn as a performer because it's just a persona, which then it makes it very hard to separate. And I guess we can kind of jump here. This is farther down in my notes. But, like, when it's you and, like, you're the art, you have a harder time drawing that line versus, like, if you're an artist.

Claire Donohoe:

Like, I don't know. I just keep calling on Chapel Roan here because, like, she has a very distinct like, there's her on stage. There's her off stage. Let's make Alpines performing in the same stuff. She's gonna, like, go grocery shopping in.

Claire Donohoe:

Totally fine. But maybe that makes it a little harder for people to reckon with the idea that, like, this person, despite having lots of fame and being successful and living the dream, quote, unquote, they might not have wanted all the elements that come with this resulting in them behaving in a way that I don't agree with or I don't think they should be. Enter a parasocial relationship, enter perception of someone you don't actually know, which we all have. Yeah. We're doing it right now.

Claire Donohoe:

We think she's one

Liz Nass:

way or

Claire Donohoe:

another way, and we don't know her, unfortunately. So are hypocrites. And we're still gonna listen to her music.

Liz Nass:

Oh, absolutely. And that's the thing. I was about to say, like, about Lizzie McDonough. I'm like, she has just, like, some of the best music that I've I I I love her music so much. I love her lyrics.

Liz Nass:

But then sometimes, when you get to listen to her too, she kind of has, like you can kinda tell she's kind of a mean girl in her lyrics too. Because she talks about, like, you know, like, I don't love you, but I'm still gonna date you. And, you know, I know that's bad, but I'm going to. And, like, that's the song. And you're like, well, she's telling us in her songs that even though we love, she's a bit of a yeah.

Liz Nass:

She, you know, she seems kinda like a mean girl. But you know what? I'm gonna listen to it.

Claire Donohoe:

Well, exactly. I was gonna say, like

Liz Nass:

And it's it's more like people about relating to her. Right.

Claire Donohoe:

Yeah. Yeah.

Liz Nass:

I don't know.

Claire Donohoe:

But then it's just crazy. Like, we start with her, and then you scroll down to the page, and it's, like, Kanye.

Liz Nass:

Make sure I get into it. Actually, I wanna hit a little bit more on Chapel

Claire Donohoe:

Rome first.

Liz Nass:

Because it's, like, it's not a thing.

Claire Donohoe:

That's a crazy thing to

Liz Nass:

kinda do. You were saying that, like, there's a difference. You don't see Liz McAlpine as a performer, so it's okay that she has more privacy. But you do view Chaplarone as a performer. So are you saying that maybe that artist is, like, should be interacting more with fans and, like, does owe more because you see them as a performer?

Claire Donohoe:

I don't think it's, like okay. Like, for me, personally, I don't think it's a I think they both deserve privacy. Right. I think in my mind, it's easier to kind of, like, remember that I don't know Chapel Rhone because I can see that it is, like, 2, let's just say, like, personas. That slows me down before I create this, like, parasocial relationship.

Liz Nass:

When

Claire Donohoe:

you see Lizzie McAlpine, you're not really met with something else before you get to what you believe is, quote, her, like, at her core. Does that

Liz Nass:

make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's either like like, she pushes that more.

Liz Nass:

Like, she, like, she says she's, like, a drag a drag artist.

Claire Donohoe:

Yeah.

Liz Nass:

So So in my head,

Claire Donohoe:

it separates

Liz Nass:

it for you?

Claire Donohoe:

A little bit. I'm like, okay. Like, I'm let's say I'm at her concert. I'm watching her on stage. In my head, I'm like, this is not maybe how she would go about just her everyday life.

Claire Donohoe:

And for some reason, and maybe I'm, like, alone in this, that, at least for me, would deter me from immediately beelining to the idea that, like, I know her and I know how she acts, and, like, I can see her, like, quote, unquote.

Liz Nass:

Like That's how I feel about Lady Gaga too, which is someone that she's being, like, compared to a lot recently.

Claire Donohoe:

So then it it kind of at that point, you almost just, like, give up. Like, I'm just not I just give up trying to, like, really know her intensely. Might I just give the disclaimer? I'm not someone who's, like, going down rabbit holes thinking that I know celebrities. I think it's actually super hypocritical that, like, Chapel Roan's, quote, fans have driven her out of this.

Claire Donohoe:

She said if this comes to my family or, you know, people start following me, oh, I don't know. Finding my address and showing up, I'm gonna stop making music. So why would you do that to her? Like So

Liz Nass:

why would you do that to her?

Claire Donohoe:

But once again, I don't wanna go too far parasocial.

Liz Nass:

I think that people can't stop themselves sometimes on their family. Like, that's weird.

Claire Donohoe:

Like Off the record, that's crazy.

Liz Nass:

Off the record, were on my

Claire Donohoe:

favorite artist or or someone that you you think you know. Like, I don't know. And this is gonna get a little bizarre for a second. But, like, I think the same thing about, like, politicians. You are, like, not you don't know these people.

Claire Donohoe:

You should not wanna be their best friend even if you did know them. Like, you don't know these people. Actors. Actors, especially. They're acting.

Claire Donohoe:

Oh my god. Like, you don't know that. It's just it's I'm getting

Liz Nass:

really far into acting. I'm getting really far

Claire Donohoe:

into, like, parasocial, but I think it is a big part of this conversation.

Liz Nass:

Kinda left the theme, but, like, I When you talk about

Claire Donohoe:

This that's

Liz Nass:

what this podcast is all about.

Claire Donohoe:

And it it's part of the conversation when you talk about, like, how do you separate it? Well, first of all, how severe is your parasocial attachment to this person? Right. How much are we waiting through before we have to separate from them?

Liz Nass:

Right. So if you

Claire Donohoe:

if you have less of a parasocial attachment, which in my opinion can be created if perhaps you slow yourself down and consider their performance persona, consider x, y, or z. Maybe you don't develop such a strong accidental super intense parasocial attachment.

Liz Nass:

Right. Just because you're, like, not connecting.

Claire Donohoe:

Yeah. And then, therefore, it might be easier for you to separate the art from the artist later on.

Liz Nass:

This is totally off topic, but do have you ever had, like, a really parasocial relationship with a celebrity in the past? Mhmm. I don't mind. Go ahead. I literally thought that I would, like I mean, obviously, like, when you're young, like, you know, it's it's way easier to, like, develop pair of those relationships.

Liz Nass:

Right. I literally thought that I was gonna marry Niall Horan.

Claire Donohoe:

Oh my god. And I thought I was gonna marry Justin Bieber. Okay. Great. Like, fully

Liz Nass:

like, I was listen. I was like, I'm like, we're like, if we met, like, it's over for him. Like, obviously, like, it would be us.

Claire Donohoe:

My most intense parasocial relationship right now is the hosts of the podcast, Binchtopia.

Liz Nass:

Dude, you

Claire Donohoe:

Which I talked about

Liz Nass:

put this in the in the notes that

Claire Donohoe:

I show it. Cited. Yep. Them because I'm obsessed with them and and point that's it. Yeah.

Claire Donohoe:

Parasocially. But I hey, Liz. I'll admit. I don't know them. Never met them.

Claire Donohoe:

Probably never will. But, yeah, I guess that would answer the question. That's my biggest parasocial.

Liz Nass:

Nice. Thing. Well and well, I think it's easier to connect to people who come weekly to you into your home as a podcast. You know what I'm saying? Like Yeah.

Liz Nass:

It's different. I think it's actually different from, like, celebrities like Chapel Rowan. Like, the Chapel Rowan's not talking directly to you. But, like, but sometimes with people that are, like, on the Internet and, like, on podcast, like, it can feel like, hey. Every week, I'm here for you at this time.

Claire Donohoe:

Mhmm. But, also, some people would argue, like, based on how deeply they relate to, like, let's say, Chaperone's lyrics or Lizzie's lyrics or, like, Kanye's lyrics if we're gonna bring him in. Okay? They're like

Liz Nass:

Are there people relating to Kanye whatever it's going to be?

Claire Donohoe:

I mean, he's got extreme fans. But, actually, circling back to benchtopia quickly, they had, like, a brief segment on a couple months ago on this topic. And one of them brought up that, like, it's a good point about how if, like, the reader relates to the text. That says more about the reader than the author because the consumer is the one having this experience lined up against another, I e their own. So, like, people are like, oh my god.

Claire Donohoe:

I really like, Liz McAlpine just gets me. Like, I really relate to her. Then you kind of start to accidentally without even realizing you're forming this, like, really deep connection. Like, you know her. You know her life.

Claire Donohoe:

It's like, well, you're the one drawing the conclusion that you relate to it. So it's I don't know.

Liz Nass:

It's not about them.

Claire Donohoe:

Yes. It's not always about them. So you have to kinda take them out of it sometimes.

Liz Nass:

Do you is there any celebrities that you would say are trying to form parasocial relationships with their fans. I've heard Like, do you think that there's any that's, like, that's that's what they're going for. Like, they're trying to get people to be, like, oh my god. I love this person so much. I mean, technically, I think that's all celebrities.

Liz Nass:

Right? Because you're building your business off of. People are going to buy everything that I'm doing. Mhmm. People are going to listen to everything, and I want them to feel like they know.

Liz Nass:

But are but do you think there's any sub reason? Like, I want them to feel like they know me so that they Connect even deeper. Yes.

Claire Donohoe:

This is not an original thought and, like, not to bring her into this, but I have heard of, like, Taylor Swift doing that. I think it's a dangerous game to be naive in the sense of, like, you're you're Taylor Swift, and you're commenting randomly on, like, your fans' posts or videos from your concert, like, not to stereotype Taylor Swift fans, but, like, that's gonna cause a dramatic reaction. And, like, they might be like, oh my god. She saw me. Like, she noticed me.

Claire Donohoe:

You do that with, like, any that can go with any celebrity. I mean, you see the videos all the time of people, like, thinking the singer looked at them during the concert.

Liz Nass:

Oh my gosh. I hate when that

Claire Donohoe:

happens. Like, hey. That's so stupid. Not. Do I think that some celebrities are doing it on purpose, like, maliciously?

Claire Donohoe:

I would hope not.

Liz Nass:

No. Do I

Claire Donohoe:

think that it happens because they're maybe just unaware of the magnitude or they're not caring to look into it? Perhaps. Yeah. I don't know. I think whether they intervene and try to join that conversation voluntarily or not, it's gonna happen anyway.

Claire Donohoe:

So I'm not really sure.

Liz Nass:

Yeah. I see that. Like, if you're just popular enough, it's gonna happen.

Claire Donohoe:

People are gonna develop a parasocial relationship to you whether or not you work to maintain it. Taylor Swift does not need to intervene. They will connect to her.

Liz Nass:

Oh, yeah.

Claire Donohoe:

She's just an example. I mean, like, any of them. And then that comes with, like, you know, parasocial, like, defense. So when if she got canceled or something happened, she has that strong fan base to, like, defend her.

Liz Nass:

Okay. So we need to get back to separating the art from New York scene, like, canceling and stuff. So, like, so, like, Kanye I'm so, like, Kanye, but, like, no. But in I actually wanna talk about canceling really quick first. Okay.

Liz Nass:

Yes. Like, do you think that there's a celebrity that's uncancelable? Like, that like, their fans don't care? Kanye. Kanye might be in, though.

Claire Donohoe:

I think any humongous celebrity, they could lose a fraction of what they have, and it still wouldn't matter because they'll always have, like, die hard fans.

Liz Nass:

True. Well, one celebrity that I literally thought was going to be uncancelable, but it has it happened. Cody Ko. Oh, yeah. Cody Ko.

Liz Nass:

People have a crazy parasocial relationship with Cody Ko and no one.

Claire Donohoe:

YouTubers too because they're like, you're not an actor. Right. You're just, like, being you and filming it. And that's, I think okay. It just gets really strange.

Claire Donohoe:

It it's it can be super cool and great, but with that comes great risk of, like, it being horrible Yeah. Where they they, being the audience, like, people really think that they know you because you're not doing an act. You're not doing a trick.

Liz Nass:

Like, you're

Claire Donohoe:

just being you. Like, the art in this case, the artist and art It's

Liz Nass:

just them talking. You are the art.

Claire Donohoe:

Like, in the case of, like, Cody Ko, like, he and his comedy, like, he is the thing. You think of a musical artist, you think of an author, they're creating whether it's super distance from them or still very realistic and close. They're creating something else. Whereas, like, Cody Ko was not. And I think that's why, like, the fall there was so much commentary on him and, like, everything that happened with that because I think people really it was like a stab in the heart.

Claire Donohoe:

They were like, I knew him. I know him. I know him. Because years years of just this buildup of, like, thinking you're watching an authentic person, and nobody wants to, like, go into a video or go into a space where they're trying to, you know, maybe even use it as a distraction or as a form of, like, entertainment assuming the worst. You're going to watch that video assuming that this is just how he is in real life.

Claire Donohoe:

Mhmm. He is just this funny and nice and whatever. You do that for, I don't know, a decade. Right. I mean, at that point, you feel like you've been, like, betrayed.

Claire Donohoe:

It's so crazy. But, yeah, he was canceled. He was canceled? Like is canceling even real? Okay.

Claire Donohoe:

That's not Alright.

Liz Nass:

Other than that. There.

Claire Donohoe:

I don't know.

Liz Nass:

Is canceling even real? No. But there are people that are like, what am I gonna watch while I'm, like, eating food?

Claire Donohoe:

Oh, yeah.

Liz Nass:

And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, there has to be other videos on youtube.com. There has to nope. That's it. That's the only one.

Liz Nass:

It's just it's interesting to see people who you didn't think would ever be canceled Yeah. Be canceled.

Claire Donohoe:

Yeah.

Liz Nass:

And not be and I think it comes back to that idea when you're talking about parasocials. Like, it's not that they're they only have interviews every once in a while, and then you just, like, listen to their music. Like Mhmm. It is that you Cody Ko had a publishing schedule on YouTube. Yeah.

Liz Nass:

And every week, you know that this person's gonna be there for you.

Claire Donohoe:

Showing up as Showing up who you think is him, which then makes the whole separating art from the artist nearly impossible. I I could listen to a song or, like, read a book and not think about the author or the writer or try not to. You can't really watch a Cody Ko video in the way that they're designed and not be thinking about that it's just him as a person. Like, you can't separate.

Liz Nass:

Right. I can listen to a song and think about, like, my own ways that I

Claire Donohoe:

Relate to it. Interpret it

Liz Nass:

or I relate to it, but I literally can't separate a YouTube video.

Claire Donohoe:

So then yeah. Then it we circle back to the question of, like, it's it's all a spectrum. How much of it can you separate? When can you separate the art from the artist? What mediums?

Claire Donohoe:

And then I wanna pose a question here, which this is from Eva, my roommate. This is not my own. Love Eva. Yeah. She's great.

Liz Nass:

Shout out, Eva.

Claire Donohoe:

So she had said, like, what are the other cases in which we could consider separating the art from the artist? Is it just scandal? Is it just if we, like, think they're irritating? Is it easier if they're an author? Is it harder if they're a YouTuber?

Claire Donohoe:

Then we were talking about art as an escape from reality, and therefore, does that make it a moral pass, so to speak? Right. So can you feel good about consumption if that art has, quote, nothing to do with them?

Liz Nass:

But can it have nothing to do with them, and they're the ones that made it?

Claire Donohoe:

Exactly. But think about, like, Harry Potter.

Liz Nass:

Okay.

Claire Donohoe:

Okay? So Thinking. Thinking about Harry Potter and god. Okay. You think about that, and, like, yes.

Claire Donohoe:

Yes. JK Rowling made it? Rowling? Rowling? She made it.

Claire Donohoe:

I'm getting nervous. I hate talking about her. Okay. She made it, but it's a completely severed world, like, from her and her That is true. Horrible views and everything that she stands for that is bad.

Liz Nass:

Okay. One thing that I will say about JK Rowling though is her, like, her world that she's, like, created, she keeps adding weird things into it. She's still part of it, and she keeps being, like, oh, and by the way, like, this character was this way or something. Like, she, like, is she's still attached to it.

Claire Donohoe:

At that point, does she just has some weird relationship to, like, this she's created a separate thing, and then she was like, oh my god. Also, because she's the creator of it. Like, she's tied to it in that way, but I feel like that's a little bit different because, like, it's not about her. Then you just you bring in, like, books. I don't know.

Claire Donohoe:

You bring in other forms of media where it's like, the attachment is maybe a little bit more black and white. Like, writer, book. You could write a fictional piece

Liz Nass:

Okay.

Claire Donohoe:

Like Harry Potter.

Liz Nass:

And talking about this, like, it's a children's book

Claire Donohoe:

But is it fine to still consume that if you're I'm reading Harry Potter to distract myself after a long day. I'm not gonna think about the author. No. No. No.

Claire Donohoe:

But just let's pretend.

Liz Nass:

Like, hey, let's Okay, freak.

Claire Donohoe:

Hey, hey, let's pretend that's what's happening. And does do you get the, quote, moral past even though you know the author's name on cover of this book? She's not great. Mhmm. But it's it's a distraction.

Claire Donohoe:

It's for entertainment. It's technically not about her. It's got nothing to do with her. Do you justify it? I personally feel like, in that case, like, yeah.

Claire Donohoe:

I'm not going to her book signings. I'm not buying her merch. I'm not following her on Instagram giving her more attention. There's a line you draw with, like, I'm not gonna go to, like, Kanye's concert. No.

Claire Donohoe:

Like, if an old song that I already have downloaded on my phone comes on shuffle, I will listen to it. Yeah. Because also me giving him one stream, then you get into the whole scale of, like, I'm not really impacting it.

Liz Nass:

Streaming thing. It's weird. Yeah. It's weird.

Claire Donohoe:

There's so many lines, and it's strange. But Eva and I were just talking about, like, when and where are you do you go too far in your support? And then when do you start to feel guilt, which is such a strange thing as, like, the consumer to, like, reckon with because of their mistake or shortcoming. It's very weird.

Liz Nass:

No. And I agree with, like, your whole thing about, like, JK Rowling. Like, it's, you know, it's a children's book. It is, like, an escape for a lot of people. But, like, there's there's also the line of, like, a lot of people are still giving, like, JK Rowling money from, like, going to the Harry Potter world and stuff.

Liz Nass:

Yeah. And, like like, that comes from still being a super fan of the books.

Claire Donohoe:

So it's like She still reaps those benefits.

Liz Nass:

She still reaps all of those benefits. So it's, like, is is that the line? Also, I wanna, like, talk like, bringing, like, Kanye into this. Like, I think it may we keep doing

Claire Donohoe:

we keep bringing his name

Liz Nass:

up this week. Bringing Kanye into this. Just because I know you can't stop. But, like, what I wanna say is, like, people a lot of people say, like, when they're talking about JK Rowling or they're talking about, like, Kanye, they're, like, well, it was just a part of my past. Like, it was, like, I I liked this before this happened.

Liz Nass:

It was easier for me to listen to it because that's what I listened to when I was young or whatever. And, like, they're, like, one of my friends has, a playlist that's, like, my checkered past. And it would and it's, like, there's a lot of, like, Kanye on it because, like, that's what she would listen to when she was, like, 14. And so, like, what do you, like, do you do you excuse it because it's just, like, oh, that's what I listen to and I'm feeling nostalgic? Or are you still, like, you shouldn't do that?

Liz Nass:

It's

Claire Donohoe:

an excellent question. I think I don't actually know.

Liz Nass:

I think it just makes it a lot easier. I guess I'm not, like, asking, like, oh, what should what what should people do? But, like, I I just wanna say, like, I do think it I I think it makes it easier when you say, like, oh, well, I I listened to it before. If it if I started listening to Kanye after he did all that, that'd be weird. But I'm still listening to it to it because I listened to it before.

Liz Nass:

But I still think there's, like, a weird moral line of, like, okay. Well, you're still showing support, and you're still actively engaging with that person's mangico.

Claire Donohoe:

Yeah. It's very strange. Yeah. And then there was also there's also the argument of, like, well, is the artist in question alive or dead? Are they reaping benefits from this or not?

Claire Donohoe:

So then it's like, wait. So if they're not getting paid, I'm gonna I

Liz Nass:

can't think of any examples of that right now.

Claire Donohoe:

Their, like, name

Liz Nass:

Who's dead and problematic?

Claire Donohoe:

Probably a lot of people, Liz. True. Maybe we just don't know.

Liz Nass:

Probably, like, a lot like, they're like Listen, we don't have any fathers. They weren't,

Claire Donohoe:

like, canceled when they were alive because it wasn't 2024 and people weren't constantly doing that. I don't know.

Liz Nass:

Yeah. That's true. People always If one thing's slime.

Claire Donohoe:

Can pin something on someone for some reason or another. I mean, some things much worse than others.

Liz Nass:

Oh, Michael Jackson.

Claire Donohoe:

I was gonna say that, but I didn't know if that was, like, a

Liz Nass:

Dude, I actually have something really funny to say about Michael Jackson, which is, like, a weird Okay. Okay. So I I was in Europe. Fan update for House Lights. I was in Europe this summer.

Liz Nass:

And no one listens to this. Fan update. Fan update. Fan update. And I was in Munich, and there was, like, this in the in the middle of the city, there was this memorial for, like, this random, like, war person.

Liz Nass:

I don't know that was in I don't it wasn't I don't it wasn't a Nazi. It was like an old war. I promise. But anyways but there it was just like it This is crazy.

Claire Donohoe:

Okay. I

Liz Nass:

decided to put that out there. It wasn't.

Claire Donohoe:

Thank you for the disclaimer.

Liz Nass:

But it was so whatever. It was like a memorial. And then over this memorial that still has a statue of this old dead dude was so many pictures of Michael Jackson just taped to it. And I was like, like, what is, like, what and do we and we just, like, stumbled across it. And it was just, like, this random memorial for, like, a different dude that, like, died in, like, 1700 that was I guess they don't care about him anymore.

Liz Nass:

They care about Michael Jackson. And, apparently, I I did more research on it afterwards, and the people just gathered around and, like, did it after he died. And, like, they but, like, it looked

Claire Donohoe:

But, like,

Liz Nass:

why? For some reason. Yeah. So that means, like, people are, like, switching it out. Like, people in Germany, like, really care about Michael Jackson.

Claire Donohoe:

They're keeping the photos fresh. Like, why

Liz Nass:

do you guys care about Michael Jackson? In Germany? In Germany?

Claire Donohoe:

But see

Liz Nass:

It's like they have their own people. Like, they have their own, like They have their own people, but also like, artists.

Claire Donohoe:

Right? Clearly, what ever he did that was like, people are still listening to Michael Jackson's music all the time.

Liz Nass:

Do you

Claire Donohoe:

know what I mean? Yeah. He's dead. So it's, like, well, do you dig up his, like, old stuff? He's What do you mean?

Claire Donohoe:

Like, when I listen to Michael Jackson, like, if I were to listen to Michael if I were to listen to Michael Jackson

Liz Nass:

and listen to Michael Jackson. If I were

Claire Donohoe:

to listen to Michael Jackson right now, am I gonna hit pause?

Liz Nass:

Top artists on Spotify this year. Am I gonna hit pause and

Claire Donohoe:

be, like, even though his life is literally over no disrespect.

Liz Nass:

That's not gonna impress. Disrespectful, he's dead.

Claire Donohoe:

Even though his life is literally over and he's dead, like, should I still be considering his shortcomings, or should I just listen to this song? Mhmm. Like, it's the whole I don't know. Coming back to the whole artist dead or alive, like, do you care about the problems if they're dead?

Liz Nass:

The Germans don't. I I the Germans don't, certainly. But I I think that it is easier to be, like, oh, this person's dead. I think So it's fine. I'm not saying it's right, but I do think it makes it easier Yeah.

Claire Donohoe:

To be, like That's yeah.

Liz Nass:

You know, you gotta respect history. Herstory, if you would. So we haven't made any conclusions in this podcast episode, and we are past time.

Claire Donohoe:

Okay.

Liz Nass:

So would we like to make a conclusion on what we think about separating the art and the artist?

Claire Donohoe:

I'm gonna say we should each give our take on, like, how we grapple with separating the art from the artist.

Liz Nass:

And, Claire, you go first.

Claire Donohoe:

Okay. Well wow. I would say it helps me sleep at night to know that, like, there are some artists that I would, like, quote, vouch for or, like, go a little harder to actually, like, maybe even bleed into, like, the parasocial because I feel better about it versus like, I would go to their concerts. I would, like, promote their stuff. Like, I'm, like, telling my friends about it.

Claire Donohoe:

I'm like, I don't know. That's small scale, you know, stuff. It's just me talking about the music, but still. Versus, like, music that, like or books or whatever, I would just consume and, like, not really further engage with. I'm not supporting that artist in any other physical way.

Claire Donohoe:

Merch shows any type of promotion that, like, the public could do, I'm not engaging with. So that's how I kinda separate the art from, like, the artist that reaps the benefits of that and, like, would need further support behind that song or that book. Yeah. The physical separation for me is how I sleep at night. That's all.

Liz Nass:

That's that's really valid. I think that's so true. I think that you're right about separating the art from the artist, like, physically because I think that, you know, just in I guess, enjoying the art is something that you have to do, like, personally for yourself. And, like but I think that you can also be, like, hey, this person has done things that are wrong and just, like not like I I not like reminding yourself when you're when you're saying that, but I think that's where this, like, parasocial relationship comes from. Is that, like, as long as you know that, like, hey, you don't have to vouch for this person because you don't owe this person anything and this person doesn't owe anything to you, then, like, I feel like you can still experience the art without having the boundary of, like, you betrayed me by doing something problematic.

Claire Donohoe:

You know? You listening to a song doesn't immediately render you that person's best friend and, like, moral defendant. Like, you just listen to their song. Right.

Liz Nass:

And, like,

Claire Donohoe:

you can definitely have the awareness of, like, hey. I'm, like, entering this kind of knowing this person has some, like, questionable takes, background, whatever it is. Yeah. But, like, just use I don't know. Just, like, use critical thinking.

Claire Donohoe:

Like, think just, like, be aware. Thinking.

Liz Nass:

You don't have to, like, ignore it.

Claire Donohoe:

You don't have to think about every waking moment that you're experiencing the art. And if you are, hey, just don't put yourself through that. The art. Just don't.

Liz Nass:

So just don't. So just don't. And that's all we have to say today on House Slides. Claire, I am so excited that you are now a permanent host on this, podcast. I think you're gonna make it a lot more intellectual and keep me on the right track.

Claire Donohoe:

Well, I'm excited to hear.

Liz Nass:

Year of House Slides. Yay. I found that I said that, like, kind of sad. But, like, it's exciting. It's bittersweet.

Claire Donohoe:

But this is only episode 1.

Liz Nass:

So don't worry Don't worry, guys. There's much more to come.

Claire Donohoe:

And thank you to Taylor.

Liz Nass:

And thank you to Taylor, our new podcast coordinator. Yeah. Oh, that cat occurs in the podcast.

Claire Donohoe:

Okay. Thank you to Taylor for editing all of the things that

Liz Nass:

Certainly. Win. Well, we will see you next week, House Lengths. Bye. Love you.