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Welcome to the first official episode of 'The Shrink Down!' Join Vanessa, Teri, Lauren and Wilhelmina, four long-time friends and clinical psychologists as they introduce themselves, discuss the concept of the podcast, talk about what they are loving right now, and delve into all things divorce-from recent celebrity divorces (hello and goodbye to Jen and Ben) to the concept of conscious un-coupling, the return of the nasty divorce, amicable co-parenting and much more.
Creators & Guests
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:01.666)
All right, welcome to the first official episode of The Shrinkdown. Let's all give a cheer, Yay, for us being here. This podcast has been in the works for some time. We are super excited to be here today. You might be wondering who we are, and that's a great question. So we are four longtime friends who met in grad school 21 years ago. Did I have that correct? 21? OK. 21 years ago, we are all licensed clinical psychologists running our own private practices.
Wilhelmina (00:08.289)
Woo!
Lauren (00:08.745)
Yeah
Teri (00:09.075)
Whee!
Lauren (00:23.283)
Yeah, in June. Yeah.
Teri (00:24.468)
Vanessa (00:30.018)
We're a bunch of Midwestern gals. You'll probably tell from our accents. You may even guess where we're from. We're all married and we're also moms. Since grad school, we have gotten together every year. Yes, every single year we've gotten together. Marriage, babies, jobs have not held us back from getting together. Every year we try and pick a new place to explore. So we've been to Savannah, we've been to Austin, we've been to, where else have we been? Charleston, we've been on a cruise.
Wilhelmina (00:33.411)
You
Lauren (00:54.475)
Charleston.
Teri (00:55.092)
Charleston, Key West.
Lauren (00:57.771)
Thank you, Est.
Vanessa (00:58.684)
Yes, we've been to Key West. So yes, we've been to lots of different places. So it gives us a chance to get together, but also to explore new places. And during these trips, we have some of the best conversations. So we have just talking about things going on in our lives. We also have this never -ending text thread where we each ask each other for advice, opinions. We vent about things going on in our lives. We share things that we've come across and so much more. And one of my favorite things that we do is talk about current events and celebrity news.
We definitely have a unique perspective as psychologists, but also just our life experiences at this point in our lives. Each week, we're going to be delving into a hot topic that we come across in the news or on social media. And we think that people of all ages will have something to learn from this podcast. So even if the topic is not relevant to you right now, it is very likely that the topic will be relevant to somebody that you know, like a friend, other family member, a coworker, even your future self. So on today's very first episode,
we are gonna be talking about all things divorce. And what sparked our interest in this topic was the recent slew of celebrity divorces and the most talked about being JLo and Ben Affleck. Benifer, isn't it Benifer 2 .0? Isn't that what we're referring to the current relationship? Yeah. All right. So, but before we get into today's topic, we are gonna do our four minute babes. So each episode, we are gonna share something that we are really into. So this could be a movie, a TV show, a book, a beauty product, or even a new hack we've come across.
Wilhelmina (02:05.655)
Mm -hmm.
Teri (02:06.686)
Benifer.
Lauren (02:07.872)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Vanessa (02:24.908)
All right, so let's get into it. Let's see, who wants to start today? Wilmina, what are you gonna share with us today?
Wilhelmina (02:29.315)
Okay. Well, I have been loving The Gentleman on Netflix. It's a limited series. It's based on a movie. I think the movie and the TV show are both written by Guy Ritchie. The movie came out a few years ago with Matthew McConaughey and like a slew of other celebrities. It was really, really good. And then they've just updated it and made it a limited series on Netflix.
stars Theo James, was in like, yeah, mm -hmm, yep, yep. And it is about a British aristocrat who inherits his dad's title and estate, which actually ends up having a weed empire on it that his dad was just sort of getting the money from. And so then he is spending the entire show trying to get out of it, but to get out of it, he has to just get.
Lauren (02:59.571)
I love him.
Vanessa (03:00.071)
divergent. yeah.
Teri (03:01.57)
Big fan, big fan.
Lauren (03:02.611)
like that.
Vanessa (03:17.248)
yeah, I've of this.
Lauren (03:18.515)
funny.
Wilhelmina (03:25.163)
into it. And so he basically, it's, it's kind of a comedy of errors. Each one has its, each episode has like some sort of thing they're trying to get out of, and they just end up getting further into it and then end up resolving itself. But each one is its own standalone and it's so good. It's so good. It's gotten some Emmy nominations too. So
Lauren (03:42.988)
that sounds good.
Vanessa (03:47.042)
Cool, I'll have to check it out. All right, Lauren, what are you sharing with us today?
Lauren (03:51.027)
Okay, so this is like a mom hack and I could be late to the game, but I'm obsessed. I love it. Do you guys have shoe dryers for your kids? Like the, like, my God, I got it off of Amazon and it takes all the sweat and nastiness out of their shoes and it's portable. Like you plug it in and you just stick their shoes on it and it takes all like the stank of the shoes. It dries them out. it's.
My new favorite thing. So look on Amazon. Right? Well, okay. So we've got, I mean, we've got like sports shoes specifically, the golf shoes and the soccer shoes. But the other day it poured rain and the boys got their shoes wet at like coming out of school. And it like works beautifully. Like dry some wall up. It even says, now we haven't used it at this point, but to like warm up your boots before you go out in the winter to like shovel snow or something, which sounds lovely.
Vanessa (04:21.362)
I think I need that for my husband, not for my child.
Teri (04:25.576)
Yeah
Vanessa (04:29.793)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (04:38.176)
that's awesome.
Vanessa (04:45.044)
I like that. Yeah.
Lauren (04:47.659)
But yes, a shoe dryer, portable shoe dryer for the smelly shoes that your children bring home. My new favorite thing, Amazon.
Vanessa (04:56.13)
Awesome.
All right, Terry, what are you sharing with us today?
Teri (05:01.172)
So mine is Abercrombie and Fitch jeans. Abercrombie, seems, has done a full circle, bit of a boomerang. I was not the biggest Abercrombie chick back in the day, but I certainly shopped there. I feel like everybody did to an extent. I always liked their jeans 25 years ago, whatever. And then lately, it seems that they are the designs they have, the fit.
Wilhelmina (05:05.876)
Ooh.
Lauren (05:06.141)
Ooh, cut some.
Wilhelmina (05:12.121)
Mm -hmm.
Lauren (05:12.233)
Yeah.
Lauren (05:18.379)
Yes, yes.
Wilhelmina (05:18.509)
I did.
Teri (05:30.568)
they are marketing, maybe they're not, I don't know, but regardless, they appeal, they're appealing to me for fall jeans. I have really been a big fan. I liked how they looked when I was looking online, I was in the store, tried some on. So everyone's body's a little bit different depending on what wash you want, et cetera, but I am recommending Abercrombie jeans for the fall.
Lauren (05:53.833)
Love it.
Vanessa (05:54.774)
Have to check it out.
Wilhelmina (05:55.161)
Love it. Yeah.
Lauren (05:58.153)
Alright, what about you Vanessa?
Vanessa (05:58.378)
Alright, thank you. Yes, so I am going to be sharing a beauty hack. if you were to go on and like if someone was like you can only pick two makeup items, what would you pick?
Lauren (06:11.519)
Well, mascara, because I have like no eyelashes.
Wilhelmina (06:11.8)
Hmm.
Vanessa (06:12.738)
Mascara, me too, mascara. Anyone else? Would that be one of your two? OK. OK, so most of you guys, mascara. So I would also pick mascara. So you know how sometimes you're putting on your mascara and you get it on your upper eyelid, or sometimes you're getting the lower lid, right? So there's this great hack where you take a dry spoolie. So spoolie is just like the mascara brush. And you can buy them on Amazon, like a pack of 50 of those, just the brush part.
Teri (06:15.656)
mascara and blusher bronzer.
Wilhelmina (06:17.303)
Blush and lip.
Lauren (06:34.803)
other side.
Vanessa (06:40.364)
So you wait till it dries and you just take the brush and you just brush it off and it comes off perfectly. So you don't have to like wet your like, you know, dab your makeup and then redo your eyeshadow or your, your under eye. So that's a good hack. I came across that not too long ago. One of the influencers that I follow has that one. So I don't know if you guys heard of it before, but it's so good and it works well, amazingly.
Wilhelmina (06:56.056)
good one.
Teri (06:56.264)
I like that.
Lauren (06:57.021)
love it. Yes.
Wilhelmina (07:00.355)
There's nothing worse than ruining your eye makeup after you've put it all on, and then you're like, crap.
Lauren (07:05.14)
I
Vanessa (07:05.986)
Right, and then you have to like wipe it off and you try to take a dab and you've taken that off your eyeshadow, you know, and you're like, okay, now I'm starting over again. Yeah, so just take the dry brush and you just brush it and it comes right off. It's amazing. I love it. All right, so now that we've shared our faves, let's start off with who here is surprised by the Benefier 2 .0 divorce? Any surprises here?
Lauren (07:13.291)
Start over, right?
love it. That's a good one.
Teri (07:19.561)
like it.
Wilhelmina (07:28.802)
Not at all.
Lauren (07:29.951)
sad, bummed.
Teri (07:31.476)
I would say if I really had to think about it 50 -50, feel like part of me thought they're older, they're in their 50s, they've been married, they've had kids, they've given this, I would hope, some good careful thought going into it. Then the other part of me thought, know stats are not in their favor. Obviously their relationship didn't last 20 plus years ago for a reason.
and so yeah, I'm, I'm 50 50.
Vanessa (08:05.282)
We, think, I think we all hoped like, you know, I think Lauren, you said like, we were wishing, I think we all hoped that this was going to work out. Cause like, how great would that be? Right? It's like, here are they coming back around. Right. but I can say that I don't think that I was surprised because for that very last thing that you mentioned, Terry, you know, there's a reason why it didn't work out in the first place. And usually that's sometimes those things are circumstantial, right? Like, but other times it's more like who you are as a person. Right. And yeah.
Lauren (08:32.533)
you're geological, right?
Wilhelmina (08:34.137)
And they were together for like, they weren't just like dating casually back in the day. Like they were together for a significant period of time and then ended their relationship. So like to me, I was, yeah, yeah. Yes.
Vanessa (08:45.602)
Well, they were engaged, weren't they? they just didn't get, I mean, so they got to the point where they were engaged, right? Like, so like, if you get to that point, like you probably know each other pretty well, right? So yeah. So yeah, so that's definitely, you know, I think one of those ones where you're like, you feel for it, but you're not super surprised that it's happening.
Lauren (08:47.263)
Yeah, they were close to the
Teri (08:47.742)
Mm -hmm.
Right.
Teri (09:05.78)
I thought they would have lasted a little longer. Time goes by pretty fast. I think they made it two years. That, in the grand scheme of time and things, really doesn't seem like a very, yeah, that seems very quick.
Lauren (09:12.947)
years.
Wilhelmina (09:17.571)
so quick.
Vanessa (09:19.328)
But that was marriage number three for her, three.
Teri (09:22.953)
Hmm.
Lauren (09:23.059)
I like four.
Wilhelmina (09:23.275)
I think it might be higher. Yeah. I'm like.
Vanessa (09:24.13)
Three or four. So if you look at the statistics on divorce, the more you've like, the more divorces you've had, the more likely that you are that it's not gonna work. So like that definitely was not going in their favor. And I think that was only number two for him, right? Or was it also? But for her it was. So statistically, it wasn't in their favor just based on what we know about divorce rates.
Teri (09:39.411)
I think so.
Lauren (09:41.332)
I think so.
Lauren (09:47.157)
Right.
Vanessa (09:49.399)
So.
Lauren (09:49.909)
It's really interesting.
Teri (09:50.28)
Yeah, and I feel like there's been some other big celebrity, not big, but there's been other celebrity divorces recently.
Vanessa (09:56.738)
Yeah, well, her friend, Leah Remini, like that's her really good friend. So they've been married for like almost 20 years, 19, 20 -ish years. Like that was surprising to me, but they were one of those couples that did the whole, you know, conscious uncoupling. I, whenever I think of that, I always think of, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin, and they came up with that statement. And I remember being like my mind blown about it at the time, because as being a child of
Teri (09:58.814)
That's who it
Lauren (10:16.133)
They coined the term. Yeah.
Vanessa (10:25.986)
parents who were divorced, not in that era of the era where we are not friends, we are not trying to be friendly. It was definitely like mind blowing to me, that whole concept. But she put out this really, I thought, nicely written, well thought out statement about how they've just kind of grown apart in the amount of time that they've been together, which is surprising if you look at the stats for divorce, right? Like typically the majority of divorces are gonna happen within the first 10 years of the marriage.
But certainly we know that that can be happening. And one of the things that we've kind of talked about is like, is this like a new trend of like the later divorce happening? I don't think we have any stats on that, but it just seems that it's happening more. I feel like I don't know. What do you guys think?
Wilhelmina (11:09.937)
And to me, it doesn't seem at all surprising that we're seeing like women kind of midway through life, I guess, that are saying, maybe I'm going to try something new. Because I think that you hit this point in whether you're maybe done with kids or out of the house and you're changed. you and your spouse.
it's not the same relationship it was when you got together. And it certainly wasn't through having kids and raising kids if you had them. So for me, seems like that would be the time where it's like, okay, are we staying in this and kind of starting the next chapter or are we starting over? So to me, it doesn't seem that surprising that we're starting to see more. And I'd be interested to see if the statistics show that as the years go on, like there is this point in mid life where you start to see the rise.
Vanessa (11:58.572)
Starting up,
Teri (12:05.204)
I think there's a name for it, something related to like empty nest, something with divorces during the empty nest period. And I don't have exact numbers, but I'm 99 % sure that the first two years of marriage, men are more likely to initiate a divorce. But then post two years and onward, women initiate the majority of divorces. And so I think that that sort of echoes, I think as women progress through the lifespan, they sort of
Lauren (12:08.873)
Yeah.
Teri (12:34.536)
start to look at situations differently and think about what they want. And maybe that's due to more flexibility or.
Lauren (12:42.741)
But there's nothing that's changed with kids leaving the home, right? So, and in fact, right now, post -COVID, still saying post -COVID, there's probably more kids in their early 20s that are at home, actually, right? So then if that's not necessarily the factor, then it would be potentially related more to just kind of this, I don't know, expanded idea of what life could be like post -kids, potentially.
Teri (12:46.728)
Right. Right.
Lauren (13:12.575)
Because I don't think anything about the scenario has changed.
Teri (13:12.596)
Mm
Vanessa (13:12.802)
I wonder if it has to do with social media and access to the things that you see. You start to see other things that are out there, and you see other people doing it. More possibilities, yeah. And you start to realize, I think historically a big reason why people stay in relationships is because they're like, I don't want to be alone. That whole part of being in relationship and having access to things like social media means that
Wilhelmina (13:12.899)
going to
Lauren (13:20.903)
Okay.
Lauren (13:24.617)
Right? More possibilities.
Vanessa (13:43.018)
you don't have to, right? Like you've got, there's, it's easier to like meet people, see people, you know, and, and, and so perhaps that's part of what's changing because you're right. The dynamics of kids leaving the home isn't, that's not different. That, that's always kind of happened.
Wilhelmina (13:56.099)
Well, and we're seeing more dual income households than we used to. So like now women aren't like, well, I don't have, know, they have their own career, they have their own 401k or they have their own money. Yes. And so they can actually don't have to stay just out of like kind of fear that they won't have. Yeah.
Vanessa (14:00.694)
Yeah.
Lauren (14:00.714)
That's true.
Vanessa (14:07.67)
Money, right? Financially, yeah.
Lauren (14:09.685)
Great.
Teri (14:09.788)
I'm going to this.
Teri (14:15.304)
Necessity, yeah.
Vanessa (14:16.246)
Right. Yeah. like, you know, even think about, you know, like, traditionally, like women have left the workforce, right? And like, now here they are, they haven't worked in however many years because they've chosen to stay home in this relationship. And so, yeah, it would be that definitely would be scary to think like, okay, am I going to go back into the workforce and, you know, have money to like, you know, live? So like, that certainly could play a huge role in the dynamics and the difference and, you know, why later on in life we're like, okay, I don't
Lauren (14:39.019)
Right.
Vanessa (14:43.383)
if this relationship isn't working for me, then I don't have to stay in this relationship.
Teri (14:47.604)
Well, and the other thing you spoke to or you mentioned briefly, Vanessa, is the tone and tenor of what divorces are like now versus 20, 30 years ago. My parents are divorced and they divorced about 30 years ago, give or take now. I had multiple friends growing up whose parents were either divorced before we became friends or divorced while we were friends as we were growing up and the culture around co -parenting.
Vanessa (14:56.895)
Absolutely.
Teri (15:17.012)
is seems to me at least from my friends, my same age friends now who are going through divorces themselves is completely different. And I've wondered what makes it so different. Why is the culture around divorce and co -parenting seem friendlier nowadays? If we zoom out, then it did, you know, 20, 30 years ago. And I don't know if it's the introduction of texting and social media. There's actually ways to sort of co -parent. There's actually apps out there now.
Lauren (15:43.7)
Right.
Wilhelmina (15:43.865)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Teri (15:44.414)
that you can use for co -parenting, for schedules and drop -off and pick -up and ways that you can communicate that doesn't have to be the face -to -face conversations at pick -up and drop -off. I don't know if that's part of it, but it just seems to me, based on my observations, that the vibe is different.
Vanessa (16:01.302)
Yeah, I think so. think a big part of it, I mentioned that my parents also divorced when I was a preteen. I think historically there's been this like, if we're not together anymore, then we can't communicate with each other anymore because that would insinuate that there's something there, right? So I think you're absolutely right. Like now there's like such, we have different ways that we can kind of keep in touch and communicate with one another without it feeling like I'm trying to rekindle this or be,
Wilhelmina (16:01.443)
Did -
Teri (16:30.58)
It's not as intimate.
Vanessa (16:31.508)
Yes, that's a good way to explain it. Yeah, so it's not as intimate. So yeah, so I definitely think that that's helped. Because while I've seen people have pretty nasty divorces, I would not describe my parents that way. But I would definitely say they were not like parents these days where they're texting each other to whatever. So it kind of left my sibling and I to kind of navigate that on our own. And that certainly was hard. And I wonder if that's also something that's changed.
Wilhelmina (16:31.981)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (16:34.709)
Yeah.
Teri (16:59.444)
Mm -hmm.
Vanessa (17:00.988)
we're starting, we've realized over the years that like, you when you're not together anymore, it's not just about the couple, it's about the kids, right? And how that impacts them. And like, I know that like for myself and my sister, like we worked really hard to like, try to make everyone happy. And it was never like, they didn't ask us to do that, right? But we felt like we had to do that. And so trying to like, please everyone and be the moderator and that sort of thing definitely has an impact on you. And I think that that's something that maybe has also
Lauren (17:07.624)
Hey.
Vanessa (17:31.52)
you know, help the change now with the tone of parents is like, okay, you're also, you know, affecting your kids by not being, you know, cooperative and cooperating and being, you know, nice to each other.
Lauren (17:45.181)
I would agree with that.
Wilhelmina (17:45.273)
Well, and I think that more studies came out that, hey, kids do better after a divorce when parents can work together. And so most parents can agree that they want what's best for their kids. So I think they found, OK, this we can agree on, so we've got to work together because this is what we want for our kids. And probably Gwyneth and Chris.
Vanessa (17:52.795)
yeah.
Lauren (17:55.593)
Right.
Vanessa (17:59.894)
Yes.
Lauren (18:04.469)
Yep. Yep.
Wilhelmina (18:11.661)
did the world a favor by this conscious uncoupling, because it did like, it did pave the way to like, wait, we can be civil and this will help our kids like, okay, this is great kind of thing.
Vanessa (18:13.499)
Totally.
Teri (18:15.347)
Yeah.
Vanessa (18:22.23)
Yeah, right.
Lauren (18:23.711)
Well, and I think like anything, it was probably very well timed with what you just said, the research showing that kids actually can be detrimentally impacted by contentious divorces, right? And so parents moving forward, you have that research. It's like anything, right? Once we know, then we know what we can do, right? And I think from a practice perspective, I know I've seen these families in my practice, and I'm sure you guys have as well. There's a big push from a legal perspective.
Wilhelmina (18:35.299)
Yes.
Lauren (18:53.659)
for parents to work together, to co -parent. mean, the lawyers are introducing the parents to these apps, right? The lawyers are the ones saying, let's get your child, your family in some kind of therapy if you need some support in terms of that co -parenting and navigating and all those kinds of things. And all of that comes from the research on how it can really benefit the kids and the family as a whole, right, to work together. It was probably just that Gwyneth was like perfectly timed.
Vanessa (18:55.094)
to get along.
Teri (18:57.128)
Mm -hmm.
Teri (19:00.584)
Yes, yes.
Lauren (19:21.523)
right? With like that or she saw the research, right? Which is possible. And that it became right, it came more to the forefront. That's exactly right. Somebody had done their homework. But I think it has created a whole different landscape for what you can see now in these kinds of situations.
Vanessa (19:26.304)
Or they had a really good PR person who was like, this is how you're going to do it. Yeah, absolutely.
Teri (19:29.427)
Mm -hmm.
Mm
Vanessa (19:42.626)
Yeah, think I'm actually taking it back in practice. I would say most of the parents, even if they're just putting up a show for me, come in and they're both on the same page and trying to. But every once in a while, I'll get a couple who I'm like, they're clearly having a contentious divorce. And I find myself being, I'm to use the word, triggered by it because I start to think of my own childhood. But yeah, I would say the majority of parents coming in are
Lauren (20:03.634)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (20:04.249)
You
Teri (20:04.893)
Mm -hmm.
Lauren (20:07.659)
Right?
Vanessa (20:11.274)
at least trying to be amicable and do what's best for their child, especially if they're coming in to see us, there's usually something going on with the child, right? And so, you know, it's nice to see that parents are trying, you know, to work together and really do what's in the best interest of the child.
Teri (20:30.164)
And I would say the, least anecdotally, the contentiousness I saw in my practice 15 years ago, maybe if I think back to like who I was seeing in therapy versus now, is remarkably improved. It was a bit more cliche and stereotyped 15, 16, 17 years ago, the families I would work with, the kids and teens I would work with, where I would...
Lauren (20:41.429)
Mm
Vanessa (20:45.504)
Mm Yeah.
Teri (20:56.756)
I'd have pick up voicemails from one parent and the other parent would bring them to sessions and allotted back and forth. was always having to tell parents, I'm not going to be a secret keeper. Does the other parent know that?
Vanessa (21:07.392)
Yes. Or the emailing, not in ceasing the other parent. I'm always like, everyone's going to be on every bit of communication here. We will have one meeting only.
Wilhelmina (21:09.877)
Teri (21:12.914)
Yes. Yes. Yes. And I, yes. And if I had to reflect back now compared to then, it's not the past couple of years, five to eight years, has, that has also shifted for the good, for the better.
Lauren (21:27.881)
I think, I mean, you still see it, right? But it's maybe a little bit more.
Wilhelmina (21:27.969)
And in fact, the couples, yes. And the couples I see that are the most contentious are sometimes the ones that I'm like, maybe you need to get a divorce kind of thing because like, I mean, they're not divorced, but you're like, you see that like, and you're like, ooh, like this is, yes, yes. Once they get to the point of divorce, now they're kind of like, they have tools and they have communication and they have moderate, you know, people helping them to better communicate.
Teri (21:30.912)
Yes.
Lauren (21:41.127)
I, to be fair,
Teri (21:41.405)
Right.
Vanessa (21:45.698)
That 10 -10. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (21:57.699)
but sometimes right before that, if they're not doing that, you see this just all of that animosity. It's the worst of it, yeah.
Teri (22:03.784)
the worst of it. Yeah.
Vanessa (22:06.828)
Do we think it's easier for celebrities to do this amicable divorce than just kind of your typical person? You're all saying yes. Yeah, yeah. know, one of the things, I think, no, you're right. I was just gonna say something financially, yes.
Wilhelmina (22:11.831)
Yes.
Lauren (22:14.059)
Just going to ask that. It's great question. You said yes, Wilhelmina? Why?
Wilhelmina (22:14.393)
100%.
Yeah, yeah. Money, like I feel like money, yeah, money.
Teri (22:22.204)
I was saying, money.
Lauren (22:24.971)
But you know what's interesting? I was just thinking about, you know, not all, of course, this is right, not everybody, but I was just reading not too long ago that Halle Berry is still in a custody battle with her ex and that's been years and they're having one of those.
Wilhelmina (22:35.617)
No!
Vanessa (22:35.847)
Yes, yes. Going on for a long time, yeah. Yes, same situation, Yes, yeah.
Teri (22:37.332)
Wilhelmina (22:39.531)
And Brad Pitt and Angelina
Lauren (22:43.251)
right so it's like money doesn't
Teri (22:43.476)
which keeps them connected in a way, which keeps you connected, which is a whole different element to this. It keeps them connected. If they're still involved in daily communications with attorneys and they're embroiled in custody in this custody battle, it keeps them connected in a way.
Wilhelmina (22:45.891)
Mm
Lauren (22:47.573)
Say it again. What'd you say?
Lauren (23:02.347)
So do you think, you know, there's that phrase, right? The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference, right? And so that when there's all those emotions still there, that there's like a reason that they want to stay in this battle with one another? Because sometimes I don't think money's going to solve that, right? It isn't easier. They have these like really complicated drawn out. I heard something like Jenna Dewan Tatum and they're still going right. And so it's like, it's not necessarily a money thing. I really think
Vanessa (23:07.233)
Yeah.
Vanessa (23:24.356)
yeah, they're also still doing the details of their divorce. Yeah. Yep.
Wilhelmina (23:24.713)
yeah, yeah.
Lauren (23:32.009)
to use this word that we keep using, it's conscious. Like you have to decide as an individual and then hopefully you're on the same page with that other individual. Like how are we gonna handle this as human beings apart from our celebrity status, the money we have access to, the ability we have to like hire somebody to shuttle the kids between or whatever. I think it's much more individual. And that's true for non -celebrities too.
Wilhelmina (23:59.587)
I think they also have, absolutely. And actually that is where I would say it would be harder to be a celebrity is because they have this endless access to money. So they don't have to like, they can let the divorce keep going and going and going. And you get a lot of people with a flair for like, let's go with the dramatic, right? And so you get these like,
Lauren (24:21.845)
dramatic
Wilhelmina (24:24.653)
Well, I'm not gonna let him have that. I couldn't let my image or this or you get a little crazy. I mean, I think some of these celebrities, you're like, okay, this is what's going on here. Like this is not even.
Teri (24:36.852)
Because what is the battle? it, and I'm not even 100 % on that and I realize every situation is unique, but is it, I'm assuming it's typically over time with the kids, right? Overnights, how much time?
Vanessa (24:49.356)
I know the Halle Berry one is like, there's this very much like concern about parenting going on, which I feel like is the same thing with Angelina, Jolie and Brad Pitt. She's saying that like there's some, she was making, right. So yes, so that's actually the same thing. I think sometimes, yeah, I obviously like, I think having the money helps, but I think there are these specific situations that we're seeing where it's more about like the parenting we don't want to, but I wonder what's kind of driving that, right?
Wilhelmina (24:56.707)
Think so too.
Wilhelmina (25:00.331)
She doesn't want him to have any custody, correct? Yes. Yes.
Teri (25:19.038)
Right, and then probably concerns about when the child is with you, what type of parenting are you engaging in? Is it consistent with myself and what we were doing? Yeah, are you doing what I would do within reason, you know?
Vanessa (25:24.096)
Right, right. What I'm doing,
Vanessa (25:31.874)
Well, the interesting thing is, you know, we were talking about like, well, what's the difference between the celebrity divorce rate and just normal people? And it's actually the same. It's 40 to 50%, but it seems so much more prevalent in, in like famous people because we hear about it, right? On the news, but it's about the same. But we're just, we don't know about our neighbors, you know, like people in our neighborhood who are getting divorced. So it's actually about the same. So, you know, I imagine that like, just like regular people, there's all kinds of reasons why, you know,
Lauren (25:32.094)
you
Teri (25:42.312)
Hmm.
Lauren (25:53.034)
Right.
Vanessa (26:00.726)
divorce celebrities get into these like lock battles with their, you know, exes are probably very similar. You know, parenting, money, all that sort of thing. Divorce rates? I know.
Wilhelmina (26:07.289)
I found that surprising. That's shocking. Yeah, shocking. I would have said celebrities, it was like, I would have said it was like 75%, you know, like based on celebrities that you hear, but you're right. It's the ones in the news. You don't even hear, like you'll hear an article like these people have been married for 50 years, but you don't hear anything about it until they like, you read an article. You're like, cool. I know.
Lauren (26:10.517)
What part?
Vanessa (26:17.109)
Yeah.
Vanessa (26:32.066)
And then we're all shocked that they've been married that long. We're like, really? Although, so again, we were talking about stats earlier, where most of the divorces happen in the first 10 years, right? And so you have heard about these people then who are divorcing later on in life, but for famous people. And so you wonder with them too, whenever they, I feel like whenever they do say, so and so and so has been married for so long, you're like, shh, don't talk about it. You're about to like.
Lauren (26:33.077)
Right.
Teri (26:34.034)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (26:37.977)
you
Vanessa (26:59.51)
Curse them, they're gonna be, next article's gonna be about how they're divorcing.
Lauren (27:04.947)
And I think, I mean, to your point, it's just highlighted, right? But it really is individual, and all the reasons are individual. But it's just highlighted that we hear about those relationships and then consequent divorces. But you know, it's interesting. wonder, you know, if you got really into the research, it's more, gosh, how would I even explain this?
Vanessa (27:08.49)
Absolutely.
Lauren (27:29.647)
Like you don't hear, like to Wilhelmina's point, you don't hear about a lot of these couples that have been going, so is there anything different about the couples that are divorcing at those higher rates? And the answer is probably like there's the same variables as in the general population, right? There's all sorts of reasons, but you don't hear about the ones in Hollywood or celebrities that aren't divorcing.
Teri (27:54.366)
There's something that I always think of that I shared a really challenging years ago, a really challenging therapy case with an attorney and lots of legal involvement all around for the family. And the judge involved in the case on the phone, we were on a phone consult, said something that always stuck with me. I might have shared this with you guys before. And she said, it was a female judge, and she said, every marriage is its own unique contract between those two individuals, and you never know what exactly is going on.
inside a marriage except those two people. And every divorce is unique in a way because every marriage is so unique, but really marriage even by law is actually a contract between two people. And there's sets of agreements and it's always, it's very fluid and it's always changing and it's always being renegotiated, hopefully. And that every divorce is, you there's commonalities, but it's also just very unique because it's this very, it's the few
Vanessa (28:25.25)
Mm.
Lauren (28:29.6)
Right.
Lauren (28:35.625)
Right.
Vanessa (28:36.642)
So.
Teri (28:53.577)
maybe the one, if maybe the only area of life that you're blending legality with like a matter of the heart. Which is really sort of interesting when you think about it that way.
Lauren (29:01.875)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (29:06.905)
Well, that ties into, do you remember in graduate school when we had a marriage counseling class and the first thing she showed us, our professor, was who's afraid of Virginia Woolf? And the whole point of it, yes, was you never know. You could see this marriage and it looks crazy from the outside. They look like they're just, know, but they had their own system. It's toxic, it's horrible, it's just dark, but then...
Lauren (29:22.037)
That's right.
Teri (29:23.25)
Yeah.
Teri (29:31.516)
It's toxic.
Vanessa (29:32.513)
Great.
Wilhelmina (29:35.723)
it worked for them because it was just, that was how they did it. And that was, they had had it so established. And so that was the whole point. And that's how she started off the class was like, you do not know like what people have agreed to within this marriage, you know, and it's different for every marriage. And so you can't judge.
Vanessa (29:36.354)
for them.
Lauren (29:44.159)
Gosh, I forgot about that.
Teri (29:45.908)
forgot about that too.
Teri (29:52.648)
Yes.
Vanessa (29:52.67)
And even the opposite of the couple who looks so put together and looks like they're so loving. Lauren, you were sharing that example of that couple that you knew, Where like picture perfect family and then all of a you find out there's all these like dark secrets going on that they both know about. And yeah, and it just.
Wilhelmina (29:57.795)
What?
Lauren (30:11.167)
Yeah. And a plan to divorce when the kids are out of the house and that kind of stuff, but that nobody saw from the outside. Right. And you know, I mean, that really kind of circles back to the celebrity piece. When you talk about contracts, Terry, that is probably an element that may be heightened in the celebrity world, which is they deal in contracts. I mean, this
Vanessa (30:15.552)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Teri (30:16.926)
Mm -hmm.
Wilhelmina (30:28.963)
Mm.
Teri (30:34.355)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (30:35.267)
Yes.
Lauren (30:35.999)
Like their whole world is sort of a public relations contract in some ways, and that's part of how they continue or are promoted in their specific business, which is super unique, right? And so they're kind of in that world all the time, which probably complicates and brings more variables to a marriage or divorce contract, if you will.
Teri (30:36.87)
everything.
Vanessa (30:57.516)
Yeah. So some of the, so like I was looking at like common reasons for divorce and it was communication issues, infidelity, financial problems, lack of intimacy, incompatibility, and then unresolved conflict, which I'm sure like, you know, all people experience, right. And then I'm sure celebrities, but then for celebrities, cause I was looking at their, you know, divorce rates and information about their divorce. Then on top of that, they have, they're kind of just the impact of fame, traveling often, public scrutiny, pressures of maintaining a public image.
Lauren (31:08.715)
Right.
Wilhelmina (31:22.499)
Mm -hmm. Yes.
Lauren (31:22.666)
Yep.
Vanessa (31:26.274)
those all can also then contribute. So I feel like there are additional things that they do experience that kind of regular people don't because we're not famous and constantly, you know, you know, being photographed and followed by paparazzi.
Teri (31:26.729)
Yeah.
Lauren (31:32.735)
Right? Right?
Lauren (31:41.877)
Where the change in their schedule at a simple level, some of these celebrities, they don't have a nine to five day to day with their significant other. They have a really kind of different, I mean, you said travel, but really kind of different day to day, which.
Teri (31:41.884)
Right. One thing I've. Yeah.
Teri (31:58.194)
and whose career takes priority, who probably generates more income or who has the potential because the people in their orbit are telling them, this is the next big thing, you really have to do this movie. But then the spouses people are telling them the same thing. how do you, it makes me think of Blake Lively and Ryan Reynolds, which, was just texting you guys this morning. There's been a lot in the media, but they're always plugging something.
Wilhelmina (31:59.821)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Vanessa (32:00.182)
Right. yeah.
Lauren (32:21.17)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (32:26.549)
Mm -hmm.
Teri (32:27.012)
and they both seem to be operating right now at this high octane because they both have movies out at the same time, but they're both having to navigate that at the same time. And what is that like for a marriage?
Wilhelmina (32:37.645)
Well, and I think about, I was gonna say like Eva Mendes and Ryan Gosling, which is different because he is like at this just superstardom point. And she has openly taken a step back to support him and raise their kids. But I keep being like, ooh, that's gotta be tough as a, know, cause she's also a movie star and also, you know, was pretty big at one point. So like, that's gotta be tough.
Vanessa (32:37.92)
Although... God.
Teri (32:50.323)
Yes.
Teri (32:57.907)
Yeah.
Vanessa (33:05.036)
Well, didn't they talk about Giselle Bunchen and what's his name, the football, Brian Brady, that like that was part of the, at least that's what people saying, that that was the kind of downfall of their relationship was that she had taken a step back and was ready to like go do her thing once he retired. And then he decided, I'm not gonna retire. Well, that didn't work out.
Lauren (33:07.942)
Mm Tom Brady.
Teri (33:08.797)
All time Brady.
Wilhelmina (33:09.185)
I'm Brady.
Lauren (33:20.672)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (33:21.593)
I'm never retiring.
Lauren (33:23.061)
Right?
Right. Do you think that there is a difference with celebrities that marry somebody that's maybe in a more typical profession or that decides to be like a stay at home parent and partner versus a celebrity that marries a celebrity? I wonder if the stats are different there.
Vanessa (33:36.704)
with another celebrity.
Lauren (33:45.183)
Yeah, just because to your point, yeah, the competitive nature of their business brings a whole nother variable into the marriage and the family itself. So if that wasn't an element, but then all those other elements that we all, know, sort of in the normal quote unquote world deal with, they would still be there for them as well.
Teri (34:09.938)
and the higher need for attention that I certain amount of celebrities might have. Yeah, it's called histrionic. If anyone wants to know what that type is.
Lauren (34:12.074)
Right.
Wilhelmina (34:12.341)
Yes. What?
Vanessa (34:14.89)
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a certain personality type. There's a personality type that...
Lauren (34:15.519)
You
Never.
Wilhelmina (34:19.527)
Lauren (34:22.165)
No.
Wilhelmina (34:22.231)
Ha ha ha!
Vanessa (34:25.782)
there's a certain personality type that probably more so than others goes into, famous people have. And so yeah, that definitely plays a role. But yeah, I just imagine that the travel thing, I think most of us have had experience where some of us more than others, where our significant other travels for work, like right now my husband's in Alaska. So and how that alters the dynamic in what's going on at home, right? So you can imagine if that's happening a lot.
Lauren (34:33.085)
maybe more of them.
Lauren (34:43.925)
Yeah. Yep.
Lauren (34:49.951)
All right. Yep.
Vanessa (34:53.268)
or unexpectedly, or if you're both doing it, that can obviously definitely play a role in stress in the home.
Lauren (35:02.539)
100%.
Wilhelmina (35:02.839)
I had listened to a podcast, it was one of the Huberman podcasts a while back, and he had Dr. James Hollis on talking about a lot of different things of like life and meaning and such. But he had some interesting thoughts on marriage. And he said that, you know, most people marry young and then they have kids and then he's like, and then, you know, kids are out of the home and he's like, it's actually your time to have like a renegotiation of like, you know, do we...
We're not the same people we were 20 years ago. So do we kind of grow together or do we end and go apart? And he said, so many times it is perhaps the end. And he said, and if you're lucky, you get to grow together. But the only way that actually works is if you do allow for that growth and that change. Because if you try to keep, you're not the same people and you've got to keep growing together.
Lauren (35:37.877)
roll apart.
Lauren (35:58.773)
Right. Well, like you said, that renegotiation, that's a great word.
Vanessa (35:59.148)
Yeah. Right.
Wilhelmina (36:00.557)
You know, and so he's.
Vanessa (36:04.246)
Right, that's, you know, obviously that requires like good communication, right? And so, you know, we talk sometimes, well, you're just telling us about, you know, situation where like the people are not communicating with each other, even though there's clearly like stuff going on. And it's like, if you can't communicate, then that, you know, renegotiation of what this relationship looks like, then it's definitely gonna take a negative, you know, toll on the relationship for sure.
Lauren (36:09.109)
Right.
Lauren (36:18.751)
Right.
Wilhelmina (36:19.383)
Yes. Yes.
Lauren (36:21.483)
Great.
Lauren (36:32.811)
It's not gonna happen.
Wilhelmina (36:32.833)
Yeah, that's what I always say. It's like, if you guys can talk and then like talk, communicate, and then both do the work to like grow together, that's like, that's going to take you a long way. But if you're not communicating and you're not allowing and listening, yes, not just, I hear you. Well, are you, do you hear me or are you actively?
Teri (36:50.087)
and listening.
Vanessa (36:51.755)
Yes.
Teri (36:55.966)
Are you waiting for your turn to speak or are you actually thinking about what is being shared with you?
Wilhelmina (36:58.648)
Yes.
Vanessa (36:59.263)
Right, listening, yeah. Right. Yes.
Wilhelmina (37:02.679)
Yes, big difference.
Teri (37:05.152)
I often think about, you know, John Gottman, John and Julie Gottman are the big couples, therapists, researchers, yes. And they will often say, if someone is struggling, this is great for your kids, it's great for a spouse, would you like comfort or solutions? That goes very far because stereotypically, men in heterosexual relationships, especially tend to engage in solution focused communication strategies, problem solving. So asking, do you want comfort or solutions?
Vanessa (37:10.624)
Comfort and solutions. I love that.
Wilhelmina (37:20.02)
The
Wilhelmina (37:28.387)
Yep. Problem solving.
Lauren (37:28.661)
I'm sorry.
Vanessa (37:28.94)
Yes. Yes.
Teri (37:34.706)
But the Gottmans are also huge fans of that state of the union quarterly meeting that you can have for your marriage. And then also doing weekly, like Sunday meetings. This all sounds great on paper. Trying to execute it is not always hard. I mean, I think it sounds great. Do my husband and I do that regularly? No. But the state of the union is great. It's essentially what it sounds like. Let's sit down. Let's check in. How are things going? And he actually, believe that there's, you Google that, there's even
Vanessa (37:46.819)
Yeah.
Lauren (37:56.233)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (37:56.897)
It is.
Lauren (38:02.763)
There's a little script. Yeah.
Teri (38:03.164)
sample items. Yeah, a bit of an agenda that you can sort of use to dictate that, you know, to help flow the conversation. How are things going, you know, in terms of how you're feeling about this, this, how's work going? How's our sex life? How's finances? How's, let's touch on all these different domains and areas. And, you know,
Vanessa (38:03.298)
Let's see,
Lauren (38:22.303)
Well, Ben and Jen clearly did not do that.
Vanessa (38:24.354)
I don't even think they had a pre -nod from what I heard, which is like, yay!
Wilhelmina (38:24.523)
No, no State of the Union there.
Teri (38:25.508)
No. I know.
Lauren (38:29.585)
No.
Wilhelmina (38:31.033)
I'm like, do these celebrities not have pre -nup?
Teri (38:33.097)
But they might have so much money they don't need one. might just be...
Vanessa (38:35.372)
That's true.
Lauren (38:35.627)
Well, and they said it's only during the course of this marriage. So it's a very short period of time. Yeah.
Teri (38:38.62)
Yes, whatever they earned.
Vanessa (38:40.47)
Yeah, yeah.
Wilhelmina (38:41.677)
You mean for her, what was that one movie she put out or video or whatever? Yes, so bad.
Vanessa (38:45.288)
about their love? wah, wah, wah.
Lauren (38:46.97)
they're like that doc
Wilhelmina (38:50.553)
That was when Terry, Terry, you sent us a text. like, you need to watch. Yeah, I think you said you need to watch 15 minutes of this so that we can talk about what it is.
Teri (38:50.588)
I I won. I watched two minutes and I
Teri (38:59.198)
Cause your head might explode watching it.
Vanessa (39:00.706)
that's sad. All right, any last thoughts on today's topic?
Lauren (39:01.205)
Lauren (39:10.761)
I so. I think we got it. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (39:11.639)
Yeah. That's wonderful. Yeah.
Vanessa (39:11.852)
All well that was a good chat. I know, we did. We talked about all the things. Well, thank you for joining us today. Please be sure to grab your coffee or your wine, no judgment here, and join us next week here on The Shrinkdown, where psychology meets pop culture.