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In this episode, Jonathan (CCO at Unconquered)has an insightful conversation with Joe Dickson who is a co-founder and CEO at Merryfield - a clean label rewards app for purpose driven consumer packaged goods.
Having spent over 20 years at Whole Foods, Dickson took inspiration from the many farmers and suppliers he built relationships with and started his own farm at home where he practices the same organic farming methods. He describes organic farming as a set of ecological farming practices that focuses on using natural inputs to the land and limiting the use of synthetic chemicals. He also appreciates Whole Foods’ mission of taking a serious stance on GMO labeling as well as organic practices.
Conquer the Noise is a podcast dedicated to telling stories of outstanding ideas and people who have found their way amongst the chatter.
Series: Cultivating Purpose & Passion in Business
In an environment of cultural change and demanding consumer expectations, engage with fellow marketing leaders and hear how they navigate brand relevance, impact and authenticity. In this series, we will explore how to create a greater impact on your business and community by cultivating purpose and passion into actionable items. During this session we’ll discuss ways brands and businesses can better connect with the environment and their community. Learn from 1% leaders on how they bring values in sustainability through all aspects of their brand and business.
Unconquered presents this series in partnership with 1% For The Planet's Be 1% Better Campaign. Unconquered is an independent creative agency challenging brand perspective through redefined content. We founded the agency to create work with a sense of purpose beyond itself, using commerce to change the world. We believe the unconquered spirit is at the heart of every great brand.
Credits:
Thank you to all of our guests, without you this wouldn't exist.
Art - Mike McNeive, Partner @ Drexler https://drxlr.com/
Audio - Harry Glaser
Speaker 1: Conquer the noise is a podcast produced by Unconquered, an independent agency. This podcast is dedicated to telling stories of outstanding ideas and people who have found their way amongst the chatter.
Speaker 1: So today we're speaking with Joe Dixon, the co-founder of Merryfield , which is an app that rewards shoppers for buying clean and organic products from grocery stores. Previously, he led the global quality standards team at whole foods market led the [00:00:30] development of the GMO labeling policy and has served as the founding board member of the non GMO project from 2010 to 15, who is appointed by the secretary of agriculture to serve as a sole retail member of the national organic standard board, which advises the USDA on organic agricultural standards and practices, Joe, that's quite a resume. Thank you for joining on it's very impressive.
Speaker 2: Thank you for the great intro, Jonathan. It's really lovely to be here.
Speaker 1: Of course. You're very welcome. So how are you doing, I know you're in the middle of a move. You moving from your, [00:01:00] your, your beautiful ranch arm in Texas to back to the, uh, Northeast. I'm sure it's a little chaotic. How are you? It's
Speaker 2: It's pure chaos around me right now, but it's fun. Yeah, I am, uh, I'm a native new Englander who moved to Texas in 2004 for what I thought was a few years of a dream job mm-hmm foods. And that, that turned into closer to 20 years. And, um, we've, you know, settled into a ranch here in Texas where we've raised goats and chickens and grown a lot of vegetables and for a lot of reasons, [00:01:30] largely work and family. Um, it it's feeling like the right time to return to new England from Texas after a long and fun run here. So we're in the process of kind of unwinding the ranch and packing up our stuff and, and, uh, moving to Vermont in early 20, 22.
Speaker 1: That's that's awesome. I love Vermont. Um, that's quite a, a lot of responsibility between managing farm animals, crops, uh, new startup. Um, how, how do you do that? That's, that's gotta be either a little sleep or you're just very [00:02:00] regimented,
Speaker 2: Both, um, and more, I mean, it's, you know, we've had this farm here for close to eight years, Uhhuh , um, and it was in a way work related. Like I, during my career at whole foods, I spent so much time working with inspiring farmers and ranchers on animal welfare practices and policies and standards, and, you know, got to visit dozens of dairy and egg and meat farms of every size and scale. And I was frankly inspired by what [00:02:30] I saw mm-hmm and really interested in raising my own animals and sort of practicing what I was preaching working on all of these standards. So it, it kind of dovetailed with what I was thinking about workwise mm-hmm when we bought this place and slowly, and then quickly got into raising goats and chickens, um, you know, still as a hobby. Um, I'm very lucky to have, uh, a husband who, um, was working from home while I was not working from home. And he was way more into raising animals than I was. And so we made it work [00:03:00] cuz we had, you know, the will and the passion, but it was definitely, you know, challenged our ability to go on many trips without a lot of planning mm-hmm
Speaker 1: um,
Speaker 2: But I would do it all again in a heartbeat and I hope to do it again at some point, you know,
Speaker 1: So I take it. You have an organic farm then? Yes. Yeah. So what I think there's often confusion around like what organic farming is. And I, I know some of the, I think, which we'll dig into a little bit when we start talking about uh Maryfield but there's a lot just confusion around what organic means and some of these different standards. [00:03:30] Can you, can you describe what organic farming is and how you're practicing it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, organic in general is a, a set of ecologic farming practices. Mm-hmm, that focus on using natural inputs to the farm limited use of any synthetic chemicals, um, treating animals with respect and giving them outdoor access and adequate food and water mm-hmm , um, not using GMOs, um, and
Speaker 1: In their feed,
Speaker 2: [00:04:00] In their, in animal feed or if you're growing vegetables, you know, the vegetable feeds themselves, mm-hmm um, you know, that's sort of what organic means in general mm-hmm um, and organic has been codified by a law, the organic food production act of 1990, which, um, authorized the U S D a to create a very formal definition of what or organic means. And I spent a lot of my career working on that standard. Um, but basically it prohibits toxic and persistent chemicals, pesticides, [00:04:30] synthetic fertilizers, um, you know, things that you don't want to be sprayed on your produce basically mm-hmm it eliminates the use of GMOs sewage sludge as a fertilizer.
Speaker 1: Sewage SLU is a fertilizer. That's a lab
Speaker 2: Commonly used fertilizer. Yeah. They call it bio solids and you know, a lot of municipal sewage plants will dehydrate, um, waste material and sell it as fertilizer.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And there are course issues, heavy metals and contaminants and all sorts of things that are in municipal sewage that you may not want back [00:05:00] to introduce into agriculture. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm actually curious how I don't mean to cut you off there that that's just fascinating, man. And I, I wonder how one of the first things that comes to mind is like far, um, you know, what's word I'm looking for, um, medications, like how are these things, you know, you're, it's going into the waste, water's going in, it's going into waste system. So I got, are we eating sort of some of these, I guess, byproducts of medications and another sort of pharma byproducts? Yeah.
Speaker 2: I [00:05:30] mean, I, I, you've probably seen some of the same data I have about, you know, especially persistent non-biodegradable pharmaceuticals, wastewater, and being relatively persistent in the environment and those impact waterways. There's been some studies on their impact on aquatic life, like fish and aquatic plants, but also, yeah. Theoretically, those are among the contaminants that could end up in bio solids use to fertilizer.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah. So, um, now fast forward in a little bit, you ha [00:06:00] you're starting you're you are starting to found, or you actually have started it co-founded um, Maryfield what led you to this steps? I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a pretty big step to go from, you know, having a really, I guess you could say consistent, um, I don't wanna say safe, but you know, liable, dependable career to now it's something that's totally unknown.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. It was terrifying. Um,
Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet. So
Speaker 2: I just to talk for a second about what I was doing at whole foods. So I, I joined the company in, it was my first job out of college. Mm-hmm [00:06:30] in Boston back in the early two thousands. And what, you know, what drew me to whole foods was its mission. Um, the sort of the, of a grocery store that was taking really serious positions on issues like GMO labeling and organic agriculture and really what should, and shouldn't be in food going above and beyond any government agency. And that, that drew me in, I initially worked for whole foods as a marketer, um, and worked on sort of PR in the Boston and New York markets, but mm-hmm, wanted to work on that, that core mission of [00:07:00] the company and what I saw as, you know, its biggest differentiator, which was the standard that govern what goes on the shelves and why.
Speaker 2: Um, and so in 2004, I had an opportunity to join that team here in Austin that was setting those rules, making those standards, you know, cut my teeth on his shoes, like GMO labeling, um, seafood system, sustainability, um, cleaning product standards, you know, sort of every aisle of the store is kinda thinking about, you know, what, what shoppers expect in a clean product and how do you create standards [00:07:30] to make sure that the promise you're making, um, is really true in the field of the farm and the factory. Um, so that, I mean, absolute dream job, um, mm-hmm, worked there, you know, was part of that team for close to 15 years left as the, the global director of quality standards in 2018. Um, and what drew me out of whole foods, you know, I wasn't, I was very happy with my job. I'd built an amazing team.
Speaker 2: Wasn't really actively looking. Um, but I met David Mayer. Who's my co-founder and [00:08:00] CEO of Maryfield, um, who is a wonderfully persuasive and charismatic person. Um, who's become a dear friend. Um, and he was, he'd spent his whole career working in private equity. Mm-hmm, running big funds, investing in healthcare services and pharmaceuticals and reached this sort of mid life plant based kind of personal revolution where he, you know, changed his diet cuz of some health concerns had kids, um, marrying his wife who was from a much [00:08:30] more organic background mm-hmm um, and started to really look critically at pharmaceuticals and healthcare industries and sort of the, the diet and diseases that were the foundation of the economic sectors he was working in. So he backed away from that decided to focus his energy and his resources on tools to improve wellness for mm-hmm for everyday consumers.
Speaker 2: Um, he started, he was one of the first outside investors in a meal kit company called the purple carrot, which is a plant [00:09:00] it's a meal kit company outta Boston. Um, and then he turned his attention to the grocery store, which, you know, I, I lived in a grocery bubble for so long working at whole foods and mainly shopping in whole foods. And, you know, he started to look at conventional grocery and how hard it is for even him as a pretty well educated shopper to go down an aisle and know which brands, which label claims and which products were good mm-hmm , which, you know, which brands were deserving of trust. Um, and so that's where we met. He was like, [00:09:30] you know, can we, is there a tool we can create to, you know, give me that feeling of relief that I get when I go into whole foods and know that everything's been vetted mm-hmm like, how do we give that feeling to more people who, because of geography or economics, um, don't have access to whole foods and probably won't mm-hmm um, so that was sort of, that was the kernel of an idea that led him to seek out someone at whole foods who could kind of brainstorm with him around standards.
Speaker 2: And he found his way to me.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: And so, [00:10:00] yeah, I mean we, and I, I, you know, I returned his call because he was a friend of a friend and, you know, started to brainstorm around these ideas that, you know, what, you know, it's, it's well, under 5% of Americans that shop at a whole food and have access to that sort of curated selection of clean and well researched and high welfare products. Mm-hmm . Um, but where I live, um, I'm about an hour outside of Austin, um, in BA county, Texas, a pretty rural [00:10:30] agricultural area. Mm-hmm we have a huge Walmart. And when I go into that, Walmart, there have never been more natural, organic and clean label choices available.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: , they're there, but they are mixed in with so many legacy CPG brands that are, you know, trying to get on the natural and organic and clean label bandwagon, making claims that are misleading, confusing. Um, and there's just so many, there's probably 80,000 grocery products in [00:11:00] that Walmart mm-hmm . So for a consumer who wants to choose better. And I think, you know, most people want to avoid unnecessary ingredients and, and lean cleaner in their grocery shops. It's really hard to cut through the noise of label claims and just sheer number of products to focus in on the brands and the products that are really better.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm yeah. You have to be dedicated. Um, I, I mean, I love grocery shopping. I don't [00:11:30] know why it's just one of those things. I really I've always enjoyed it. Um, and I like reading the labels, but it, it, you have to be, it's a time commitment, you know, people are like significant others, always wondering why it takes two hours to go grocery shopping and right.
Speaker 2: And, and if you don't have the time where busy mom or just, you know, working full time, it's really hard to find the time to read all those labels.
Speaker 1: It is. Um, and I think that's having these sort of curated platforms, uh, that do it for you is so [00:12:00] smart and it creates a level of trust, um, and reassurance. And I know, I know you, we had a, a guest that I know you, that you've probably worked with, uh, Jeremiah McQue from, from thrive on yes. Uh, months ago. Jeremiah is great. I love your yeah. And thrive, you know, I've, I've, I signed up for that, uh, shortly after our, our podcast. Um, and frankly, because it saves me time and that I know I, when I go on there, I can, the stuff I'm is already's already [00:12:30] been vetted for me. Um, and if I really wanna, you diligence, I can, but, um, there's that level of safety I think there. Um, and so I would love to hear how, uh, Maryfield is continuing on this sort of idea of curation and, and, and creating a level of trust with customers, um, and the problem that you're trying to solve.
Speaker 2: Well it's, and that's an interesting question, you know, how do we create trust with consumers and, you [00:13:00] know, allow them to, to trust us to be the curators and arbitraries of, of what's good and what isn't, um, you know, and it's with a company like whole foods, they've built that credibility over decades of mm-hmm of careful research and building their brand with Mary field. You know, we, the foundation of our, our product curation is a strict set of standards that govern, you know, the ingredients that can be used in products, on our platform, additional requirements for animal welfare, seafood, sustainability, cosmetics, testing, and safety, [00:13:30] um, all the areas you'd expect, but I also wanted to not just rely on my own background, you know, mm-hmm, , I, I'm well known inside of whole foods in the natural industry, but, you know, shoppers don't know who I am.
Speaker 2: We built what we call the Maryfield clean council. I wanted to create a very credible group of experts, um, in GMOs and organics and food ingredients and, and other product categories. So I brought along, um, a Schweitzer who, your friend of mine who ran the grocery program at whole foods for a long time, and, [00:14:00] um, has become a really huge advocate around regenerative agriculture, racial equity in the CPG space, you know, sort of very important issues that he's taken up post whole foods and, and become, I mean, he was already a leader in the sector, but has become a real voice for, um, higher standards. Um, Kim MCT is a full-time part of our team. She's a, she's a masters in public health and she's a registered dietician. She worked for a long time for vegan nutrition. Um, but she's our authority on these questions of human nutrition [00:14:30] and diet, especially with kids and athletic performance.
Speaker 2: Um, she is the most thoughtful mom, um, with a degree in nutrition and public health. Who's just awesome. And then Mia Davis is another, um, old collaborator of mine. Who's the leading expert on clean beauty standards. Mm-hmm, , um, she's the VP of mission at credo beauty. She helped create the standards at beauty counter, um, and has worked with so many leading innovative, um, clean label beauty brands. And so the four of us, [00:15:00] um, kind of act as our steering committee on the, you know, what do we been and why mm-hmm , what do we want to do about Palm oil used in peanut butter? Like how do we create a meaningful assortment of baby food products that, you know, provide meaningful choices to people, but also probably have a higher bar because kids are so sensitive. And we wanna err on the side of caution, especially with growing bodies,
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm , um, I'm curious to like, so all of you are obviously paying very close attention [00:15:30] to what's you what's in market, you're paying attention to new products that are coming out, you're paying attention to health science guidelines. I'm sure. Um, and we talked a little bit earlier about, uh, the misleading labels and health claims or product claims, what, what's one you see all the time that you're just like, this doesn't even make sense.
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, I have so many examples. Um, I mean, one that I see all the time that just makes my blood boil is hormone free chicken.
Speaker 1: Okay. I same, [00:16:00] but I would love to hear you repeat it all the time for you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Why, why is it misleading? Um, so the FDA only allows the use of gro growth hormones in beef.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm ,
Speaker 2: You can't use out of growth hormones in pork or in poultry and, you know, Turkey or chicken. Um, they're just not used mm-hmm . And so it, a lot of conventional meat producers who are just doing straight up indoor arrays, conventional GMO fed chicken, um, using antibiotics, they'll slap hormone free on the label because they can, it's technically true or raised [00:16:30] without adding growth hormones, but it means absolutely it's the bottom of the barrel mm-hmm . Um, and they're just making this sort of, you know, positive label claim to put something on the label mm-hmm that might resonate falsely with some consumers as making it different from anything else mm-hmm animal products, I think are one of the most dangerous parts of the store in terms of really misleading label claims
Speaker 1: Is, is, do you think that's because of trying to debunk ideas of how the American, [00:17:00] uh, ag and, and, and I guess farm and industrial complex, the way that's raising these sort of, you know, driving through Texas. I remember the first time I drove through Texas, I just saw these mass mass fields of just cows,
Speaker 2: Smell them too,
Speaker 1: Smell them for miles. Um, and there's always, it just seems like there's always like some kind of secrecy behind of how our food and how the animals are raised. And do you think those things are linked? Is it,
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in animal agriculture, they're almost, you know, for, to [00:17:30] sell animal products to, to Americans, you they're has to be a shroud or a romanticization or, you know, um, you know, the, the living conditions for most conventional animals are pretty bad. Mm-hmm um, if you saw in the feed lots, probably in west Texas, I'm guessing like driving across to panhandle, like I've, I've definitely driven that route. Um, also, you know, animal products are expensive to produce mm-hmm , um, you know, to, to feed animals better non GMO or organic feed to give them the living space that [00:18:00] they need to fulfill their natural behaviors, um, takes more space and more money. Um, mm-hmm and so, you know, compared to organic, conventional blueberries, the price differential between organic versus conventional meat is going to be so much greater
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: . Um, and so that, I think that's one of the reasons we haven't seen as much adoption of better animal products.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm so I think what, what what's interesting is, um, going back to the idea of, of, of relay and trust, [00:18:30] um, and communicating these, these, um, these values of what we've been all been talking about now, how are you, how are you doing that within, with, within the community of, and getting people one interested in the app, and then two, once they're on what's that continued conversation, um, is there, is there inform, and like, I just signed up today, so I, I meant to sign it months ago and of course just kept forgetting to do it, getting to do it. Yeah. So did it today, um, which is [00:19:00] a great time is I just went to the grocery store, so I'm gonna be uploading my receipt soon, but, you know, within the app, um, are you, are you, is there a level of education within there that you're trying to, you know,
Speaker 2: Education is the huge part of it? You know, we, we've selected a group of brands that, you know, a meet our standards, um, at a baseline and B all of which have have, you know, clear purpose and mission as brands, a real impact that they intend to make in the world. And we want to bring that to life for our users. A lot of people shopping and conventional retail [00:19:30] might unfamiliar with, especially some of the smaller and more emerging brands. Mm-hmm . And we want someone shopping at a Kroger in Cincinnati to know why Quinn pretzels are so freaking awesome. Mm-hmm . And as we get into the story of that brand and how they were founded, and, you know, the work they're doing to support regenerative, um, cropland in the west, and, you know, we want to bring those differentiators, both around standards and specific ingredients and the purpose of the brand to life within [00:20:00] the app for our consumers.
Speaker 2: So every brand has a page where we bring that story to life, every product page, when we do a special offer on a product we highlight, you know, is this organic and you click like your little organic seal and it pops up with, you know, a quick one liner definition of what that means with a link to more information. Mm-hmm , um, you know, we try to keep it digestible, um, in, in the context of the app. Cause when you're standing in the peanut butter aisle, you don't have a ton of bandwidth to mm-hmm to too much, but I wanna boil it down for your [00:20:30] quickly. Why, why Justin's be better than Jiff mm-hmm um, and so we, we call out those product attributes and differentiators right. In the app for people
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm yeah. I love, I love Justin's peanuty they're great. Um,
Speaker 2: They're on the app.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I saw, um, so it, what's interesting. It looks like you, you're having two conversations in a way you're having ones with direct with brands and you're having ones direct with your, your, the customers or the users. Um, and I'm curious to like, basically that means you're kind of solving two problems [00:21:00] in a way, and I would love to hear how that helps brands and then how that connects and then benefits use.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And we talked a bit about, you know, the benefits to the user. Who's confused in a grocery store, one clear signals as to which products are better from the perspective of the brands we work with. Um, you know, they also suffer from that, that noise and chaos at retail mm-hmm , um, with their ability to stand out, especially to consumers unfamiliar with, you know, even some of what I think of as the biggest brands, [00:21:30] because I've been at whole foods like Applegate and Stonyfield yeah. Are still, you know, have pretty small placements in Kroger or he, and so their frustration is, you know, how a, how do we stand out and help co consumers understand in the brief moment we have with them, how we're a better product. Mm-hmm, , you know, they're typically a little bit of a price premium. Um, there's a lot of competition from both legacy CPG brands and retail, private labels, mm-hmm
Speaker 1:
Speaker 2: Um, and you know, all of those brands want a way to, [00:22:00] to open a trust driven dialogue with consumers, help them understand why their product is better, um, and incentivize them, not just to try it once, but to keep buying the product, you know, to, it takes a while to form a habit, whether it's, you know, exercise or sleep patterns or introducing a new product or type of product into our home life and what we cook on a daily basis. So, um, you know, one of the core ways our platform works is not just by rewarding individual transactions like [00:22:30] coupon app would, but by rewarding you, every time you buy any product from any one of our brands, mm-hmm , um, whenever you shop, we wanted to promote those sort of longer term, less transactional relationships between brands and consumers to help help our brands stand out. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: yeah. That's what I love about. Cause you know, I, I stick with, with the same brands quite a bit, I do try a lot of different things. Uh, but you know, once I find it, I stick with it. Um, there's, there's typically not a loyalty program [00:23:00] automatically tied to tied to it. Right. And I'm a big sucker for loyalty programs. Um, so this just seems like such a simple solve for that. Cuz seems could be like really complicated on the brand side, but when you have someone do it for you,
Speaker 2: Especially a lot of the brands we've talked to have experimented with, or at least started to plan their own loyalty programs, Uhhuh . But from a consumer perspective, if I go to the grocery store and I buy CAIA farms, almond milk and primal kitchen salad, dressing and Turkey breasts, do I have to, [00:23:30] they go home and open three different apps to scan my barcodes mm-hmm or fill out an online form, you know, as from a user consumer perspective, it's really, there's not huge payoff for of loyalty points from a single brand mm-hmm , but you know, our big thesis is that there's power in collective loyalty. Mm-hmm that if we get the right group of brands together to reward, um, as a group, um, there's way, much more consumer value in it, much more incentive for a shopper to open the app, engage [00:24:00] with it, learn more on an ongoing basis and really build up meaningful words pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I, I love how you said that power and, and, um, like this collective loyalty, I think that's, I love that. I think that's really, really smart. Um, so how are you go please going no, please. Oh,
Speaker 2: And it's really resonated with, with the brands, you know, we, you know, every brand has a different story and it's experimented in different ways, but like the number of brands we've talked to who have thought about doing a loyalty program and then said, [00:24:30] now the payoff's not gonna be good enough or it's gonna be just too expensive for us as an individual brand to build mm-hmm um, you know, we hear that again and again.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I guess, how are you, I'm curious to how then this all ma how you're me measuring success then, and because I, you know, when everything's tracked with so much data available to you, um, and I'm curious to like what that means for the brands then, are they tracking this well as well? Are they, how are, how is, is there a success measure for you and then a success [00:25:00] measure for the brand or,
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there, there's a number of success measures, just some were tax to go in short term, some, you know, more idyllic, idyllic, long term, but ideal rather, um, you know, we're, we're just getting started. Mm-hmm so it's, you know, we literally, we launched last summer with an iOS app, um, that was iPhone only. And, um, that's, you know, slowly built our user base on that platform, our and Android app, which, you know, represents some 30 to 40% of [00:25:30] smartphone users are using Android devices. We launched our Android app last week.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm .
Speaker 2: Um, and so congrats, thank you very much. Um, it's working well. Um, but we we've held off on a lot of our, you know, sort of user acquisition work, um, you know, and paid digital and stuff like that until we had both platforms up and running mm-hmm you, we wanted to, to make it so everyone with a smartphone could benefit before we went big, um, introducing ourselves to the world. So a lot of that starts now [00:26:00] and, you know, we'll measure success in terms of the number of users, the number of brands, the satisfaction of our brands with the program, but on a bigger scale, you know, I'll measure success, you know, for me as an idealist, natural and organic person, when we play a real and concrete role in transforming retail grocery into a healthier and cleaner experience for all consumers, you know, part of our strategy is to help the better brands stand out and play a role in crowding. The crappier brands whose time has [00:26:30] probably come and helping consumers really understand, you know, why, why some brands are better, um, and continue to move that needle.
Speaker 1: You know, it's, it's interesting because, you know, I share that similar sentiment. There's a lot of just crappy brands out there. And I've said that before to friends, family, and they look at me like I'm snooty, mm-hmm, , I'm a food snob. Um, and it's really not even about, I think this like elite is, um, for me anyway, maybe some people makes them feel, you know, I, I mean, personally, I, I shouldn't [00:27:00] discount the emotions that I feel what I'm trying to actively buy things that I think make me healthier or make my family healthier and so forth. There is an emotional reward there. Right. Um, but I'm, I'm curious that if that's a something you're trying to get around, if that's a battle for you where, you know, you don't wanna come off as elitist, or if that's, if there's a, you know, trying to appeal to, to people, people who kind of looking at organic food, or maybe some of these other newer products with a side eye, like, I don't know, [00:27:30] you know, how this play into your marketing and
Speaker 2: Communications. Yeah, no, that's you bring up a really important phenomenon. I mean, a for a lot of mainstream consumers, organic isn't necessarily a positive group label claim, you know, mm-hmm, , I mean, you know, experience either, you know, really expensive products or for, you know, in some categories in the nineties, like the organic version was often less tasty mm-hmm than conventional counterpart. And that plays out across organic food and natural personal care and deodorant and cleaning products. Mm-hmm [00:28:00] um, you know, and part of, you know, we know that the, to get new users into the clean label tent is going to take approachability mm-hmm relatable language, a lack of snootiness. Um, some of the, you know, elements of organic that have turned people off, aren't what we're leaning on. And, you know, really PE helping when you are talking about organic products and helping people understand their, why they're better, there's so many different routes you can take, you can talk about the environmental impact [00:28:30] and the greater good and sort of some big, you know, ideas behind organic.
Speaker 2: You can also focus on personal benefit. Like what's in it for me, what am I not getting? You know, what Heide revenues and GMOs and stuff I don't want to consume. And to my family, am I avoiding by buying this product? And I think for a lot of newer consumers, the focus needs to be more on the personal benefit stuff than the greater good stuff, which is still important and still resonates with some consumers. Um, but I think for, you [00:29:00] know, for a busy mom in a conventional grocery store, like you have to be really concise and with the, the, what is the benefit to my family from this product,
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm, ,
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm, , I think coaching it in those terms can help people, you know, really understand. I think also, you know, we've seen a new wave of just the look and feel of brands like cleaner package design, like cool looking labels, you know, but brands letting of some of the, the would cut imagery of the organic products of 15 years ago. And that [00:29:30] really matters too, to, to jump off the shelf and appeal to someone, you know, shopping in a mainstream grocery store takes a different branding approach.
Speaker 1: So I think you really bring like a really unique perspective and, and, and skillset to, to your role there. And as you work with brands, I'm curious if there's like a consultant role for you, for you, as well as when you're talking to, to, to these brands who are trying to reach new customer bases, are you having conversations? Just like what we're having? I think, like, I think if anything, how do you now [00:30:00] in this podcasts, if you cut out the last, you know, 20 seconds of our conversation, I think that would just be so valuable for a brand to hear.
Speaker 2: Um, yeah. It's funny your brand. I, yes, that has come up quite a bit where, and I'm always happy, you know, to help our brands understand both, you know, yeah. The, the branding and marketing and, and visual piece. But, you know, my expertise also is, so I've spent so many years working on, on certification programs, label claims, mm-hmm, that sort of stuff. So I've had brands, you know, in our pitch meetings, talk me and be like, Hey, what are you think about the certification we're thinking about? [00:30:30] Um, and I'll be like, can we let's grab another hour and talk through that mm-hmm and I will happily, you know, whether it's with organic certification or heavy metal testing or stuff like that, like I've spent a fair amount of time with our brand and it's just helping them think through these really big, important consumer facing integrity issues.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm so I'm, I'm really curious. Uh, so you've brought in Zoe de Chanel. She has pronounced her last name. Right? I can never, I never remember if I pronounce her name right.
Speaker 2: De Chanel
Speaker 1: De Chanel. Thank you. Um, [00:31:00] she's coming in as head of head of creative. You're, you're a chief creative officer. She has a co-founder role. Um, and I know she's a similar story, kind of what you're talking about, this busy mom, um, and that's how she fell into this sort of interest and, and focus on delivering clean, healthy foods for her family. Um, and I'm curious how, what what's that been like bringing in a large influencer or, you know, big celebrity name, um, and how her creative juices have helped pumped the brand up a [00:31:30] little bit?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. So we, you know, we started to realize maybe a year ago or started to bat around the idea of finding the right celebrity partner to help us raise our profile and build our user base and really get our story out there. Um, we, we spoke to a few agents and a few celebrities around, you know, sort of sponsorship deals and, you know, sort of lower level social media stuff. Um, you know, and it's like kind of dating or interviewing PE people for a job. You know, we started [00:32:00] to, you know, talk to a few people who aren't quite the right fit, meet. Some other agents who'd suggest other talent for us and kind of, you know, started chatting with people and we threw a, another agent get connected with Zoe. And she was the, not the first person where there was such a clear fit around mission, but really the, the depth of her personal kind of resonance with our mission and what we wanted to do to help busy moms and families, um, you know, access better food, um, really resonated [00:32:30] with her.
Speaker 2: You know, when we met with her kind of, I don't wanna say fireworks went off, but we were kind of just gushing and brainstorming and thinking about the impact we could all have together. Um, she's done a lot of work in the area, um, starting when she, you know, first had kids, um, she and her then husband started to think really critically about what they're feeding their kids and started this sort of web mini-documentary series called your foods roots. Mm-hmm, where she goes through all of these different, really important issues on what we eat and why, whether it's [00:33:00] seafood sustainability, or what are the bad ingredients in bread that mm-hmm, , you know, why that, or why you should be buying organic and sort of, she started as a journalist and host of this series, unpacking these really big issues around what we should eat and did a phenomenal job with it.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm we watched every episode and was really impressed by it. um, she then was co-founder of a company called let us grow, which are, you know, they create these wonderful home, um, produce growing units to allow anyone anywhere to grow food, [00:33:30] um, fresh in their own home. Um, so there's just a lot of shared mission around helping everyday people and families access better food mm-hmm , um, especially when it comes as to what to feed kids mm-hmm . And so, as we got talking to her, um, we, um, realized there was just a much bigger fit, um, than just a, a normal kind of sponsorship deal. And so we brought her on as co-founder and chief creative officer of Maryfield. And so she's playing a really big role in helping us, you know, plan [00:34:00] how we announce our brand to the world, our mm-hmm brand storytelling, how we're bringing the stories of our brands to life, our user experience, um, and so on. And, you know, we just started working with her this summer. We're really just getting up and running, but, um, yeah, she's a full on part of our team.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's, that's, that's, that's awesome. She's
Speaker 2: Been just amazing to work with. I still, you know, fanboy out a bit when we talk with her, but , she, it, the, her, her personal passion for what we're doing [00:34:30] is, um, just unbelievably real.
Speaker 1: So I I'm, I, you touched on storytelling and I, you know, this is the personal passion of mine is what we do as a business, um, and focused in on, and I'm curious too, how you're doing that now and how you see this evolving now that you have a new creative partner. Um, do you see yourself getting into like the branded content space where you're producing series, sort of like what we just talked through with the, um, the, the Zoe worked on, or do you, do you see sticking within more [00:35:00] of the, a, a news of just creating work that's short form more about educating it lives inside the app, or is it gonna be more external facing
Speaker 2: Both? I mean, I think, you know, the, the in-app experience is really important and making, you know, leveraging the tools we have within that space to help our users really understand our brand stories. And, um, you know, I think we have more latitude outside of the app to rely on, on video and other forms of content [00:35:30] to, to tell a richer story. Um, and so we're working there too. Um, you know, I think we're just scratching the surface of using, you know, social media in bigger video driven, fun ways. Um, mm-hmm, , we're, you know, exploring how do we, we, all of our brands have such charismatic founders and like standard and sustainability people we're thinking through like, you know, how do we, do we get on a zoom and record it? Like we're doing right now? Do we leverage Instagram live or, you know, what are [00:36:00] the channels to, to bring those founder and brand stories to life in a way that really resonates with our users and doesn't overwhelm 'em. And, um, so yeah, we're experimenting a lot of different areas there, but definitely, um, channels will, will grow over the next year.
Speaker 1: And are you finding that you touched a little bit on, on like where your, where your people are, and I'm curious to, you know, dig into that a little bit and, and learn about, um, who they are. Right. Are you seeing, are you [00:36:30] seeing specific, um, trends across, are you seeing, like you see lots of moms, do you see that, you know, 30 year olds, do you see 70 year olds who have been buying the same products for their whole life and now doing our major behavior change? Um, um,
Speaker 2: I mean, so in short, yes, to all of that, I mean, we, we certainly see 70 year olds and we see 30 year old moms. Um, our users tend to be women. They tend to be mothers mm-hmm , um, a little millennial [00:37:00] like younger, you know, more women in their thirties than in their forties, but mm-hmm, , you know, from across the spectrum, certainly plenty of men using the app as well. Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: , um, we are seeing a lot of users in, you know, California, New York, Texas, sort of, a lot of the traditional concentrated areas of the natural organic product space. Um, our shoppers are shopping, not just at whole foods, but at Walmart target and Costco, those are our four biggest retailers, [00:37:30] um, and all over the place. You know, we're seeing a lot of uptake in the Kroger and Albertson's banners, the regional grocery chains E here in Texas, stop and shop in the Northeast. Um, it's really a remarkably diverse group of, you know, people in terms of age and gender and geography, um, buying all sorts of stuff, but yeah, definitely more moms, more female and a little bit younger.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The reason I asked, I think that would also just help of [00:38:00] help you at least figure out the types of storytelling you're gonna be doing. Um, and, uh, just trying to get a little background there. Um, we, we are getting a little close on time, um, and I've, I've really enjoyed the conversation. I think you really provided some fantastic insights and information for people that they can look out for, um, when they're shopping themselves and just, you know, label those label claims. And I think the understanding around what sustainability and organic is, I think right now from my understanding is one of the biggest challenges, um, within the space. [00:38:30] Um, do you agree with that?
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think for a shopper, the biggest challenges are, you know, knowing which brands to trust, which label claims mean anything which certifications to look for, you know, like if I'm in a hurry in a conventional grocery store, um, you know, I'm always gonna lean towards products that are U S D a organic or non GMO project verified because mm-hmm, , I know those certifications, um, service see for so many other things about the product mm-hmm , um, but it's hard, you know, when you don't have the [00:39:00] time to Google every label claim. And even if you do like stand there with your iPhone and the aisle and look up, you know, fair trade and what it means like, which are the trustworthy certification bodies, and there's no clear source of information. So that's, that's where we're looking to really help people is, you know, create clear information and promote trust between consumers and the brands that deserve it in that moment. Mm-hmm,
Speaker 1: , uh, one thing that we always do, I always like to an end on a question of, of just advice [00:39:30] towards your younger self, it could be anything from entrepreneurial. It could be anything from, I wish, should I save more money? It could be anything too. Um, I wish I bought organic earlier. Um, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but if you have anything, what would be something that you would tell your younger self or, um, you know, if you go back in time and, and whisper something in your ear to, to look out for, what would that be?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's so funny as someone, I struggled in ways as a, like really young person in business, like I Uhhuh moved [00:40:00] to the global headquarters of whole foods when I was 23, um, getting a pretty decently responsible job. And I think for years, I was sort of like, I almost tried to overcompensate for my age by wanting to project sort of like confidence and assure. And I think, I think that probably is true of a lot of people at that age. Um, you know, and I wish I could tell my younger self to chill out a little bit and know that like, you know, everyone, regardless of age and [00:40:30] years of experience is unsure of some parts to themselves and like not a hundred percent confident all of the time mm-hmm and that there's no like magic door are you pass through into confident adulthood. Like we're all in a lot of ways, still pretty unsure about what we're saying and believing and why. So I think, you know, just,
Speaker 1: Yeah, chill
Speaker 2: Up and,
Speaker 1: Um, fantastic advice. You know, I, I think I, I, I have a lot of advice that I would tell em, my younger self, um, but I think one of would be something similar [00:41:00] in the vein of, um, relax, enjoy it. Um, don't take it necessarily so seriously my own career,
Speaker 2: You know, even despite your lack of years of experience, like you still have a lot of insight and perspective to offer no matter who you are and what your path has been.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think that's great advice and I'm gonna end there. Um, Joe, thank you so much for joining us today. We really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Jonathan. This has been a great conversation. I, I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Agree. Thank you.
Speaker 3: [00:41:30] Thank you so much for spending the last hour with us. I hope you're feeling inspired and having learned something new, please send over to apple podcast app and lead a review. See you all next week.