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Fascinating conversations with founders, leaders, and experts about product management, artificial intelligence (AI), user experience design, technology, and how we can create the best product experiences for users and our businesses.
Kyle (00:01.567)
All right, welcome back to another episode of Product by Design. I am Kyle. And this week we've got another awesome guest with us, Jake Moshenko. Jake, welcome to the show. Great to have you and excited to talk more with you. But let me give a brief introduction for Jake. And then Jake, you can tell us a little bit more about yourself. But Jake is a founder, co -founder and CEO and has many, many different roles in the past, which I'm excited to talk more about.
Jake Moshenko (00:10.99)
Hi Kyle, thanks for having me.
Kyle (00:31.615)
but is currently the co -founder and CEO of AuthZ, a company commercializing SpiceDB. And obviously we will talk a lot more about all of that, but Jake, why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself to get started?
Jake Moshenko (00:45.966)
Yeah, sure. So yeah, I'm the co -founder and CEO of AuthSed. At AuthSed, we do application permission solutions. So companies can bring us in to add permissioning and add a sort of fine -grained authorization to their applications. As you mentioned, I'm a second -time founder. So before this, I created a company called Quay. Quay got acquired by CoreOS. CoreOS got acquired by Red Hat. Red Hat got acquired by IBM.
And then all of a sudden I went from a two person company to like a multi hundred thousand person company. And I was like, all right, it's time to strike out on our entrepreneurial path again. And here we are.
Kyle (01:27.391)
Awesome. Well, I'm excited to dive into a little bit more of your journey and some of the experiences that you've had. But before we do, why don't you tell us a little bit more about some of the things that you like to do outside of the office or outside of some of the work that you're doing.
Jake Moshenko (01:42.83)
outside of the office. What is that like? Tell me more about this mystical outside. No, but all joking aside, I have a eight -year -old and five -year -old daughters and we spend a lot of time. We live in New York City. So we spend a lot of time exploring the city, going to museums, just getting out into the parks. I've never been anywhere with such an extensive, amazing park system like New York. So we just get a lot of outdoor time that way.
Kyle (01:45.439)
Hahaha.
Jake Moshenko (02:11.982)
And then when we're cooped up inside, we're usually playing board games or watching our favorite shows. And I personally just love to read. So that's how I spend any non -family time that I do get.
Kyle (02:24.443)
Well, we'll come back to that reading question because we want to hear anything that you have been reading. But as far as either New York or board games, do you have any particular place that you'd recommend in New York or a particular board game that would be one that you'd recommend?
Jake Moshenko (02:43.118)
Yeah, I have a list of about like 200 places that I would recommend in New York. For restaurants, one of my favorites is Cafe Katia here on the Lower East Side where I live. It's an Austrian place. It's been around for, gosh, a long time now, 12 something, maybe even 15 years. But they, I mean, they do a great meal. And then for board games, we've been loving playing Azul as a family.
It's kind of a neat game where you draw tiles and try to make patterns and sort of the whole thing sort of comes together mathematically to figure out what your score is. And my five -year -old is actually our champion in the house. So somehow she always pulls it off and beats us and I, you know, I can't figure it out.
Kyle (03:30.239)
Very nice. All right. Well, I do want to talk a little bit more about your journey because you have had a ton of experience and we'll be interested in hearing a little bit more about that because you mentioned being a two -time founder and some of the companies that you have done, Quay and now AuthZed. But before that, you were also at Google and Amazon. Tell us a little bit more about your journey and how you started and then how you...
how you got to where you are today.
Jake Moshenko (04:03.214)
Yeah, my journey really starts probably like so many others as a small child, just loving to build things and take things apart and reassemble them and figure out how they work and then try to recreate and capture some of that magic for myself. So it's probably not a very rare story, you know, that as an engineering minded founder, I was big into Legos and big into like Erector sets and Kinects and all that stuff. So that's how I got my start building.
And then my parents are both actually small business owners. And so the entrepreneurial spirit was kind of, it was kind of just the way things were done in my household. So I guess when I graduated college, I went to the University of Michigan for computer engineering. When I graduated college, I went to work for a major aircraft manufacturer whose name is kind of taboo right now, but.
Kyle (04:37.151)
you
Jake Moshenko (05:00.366)
Going to work for such a large company was just kind of a paradigm shift from everything that I had known my whole life. And so I did have a great time there and learned a lot. And then I ended up going to companies like Amazon and Google, where I sort of honed my distributed systems skills and sort of like large scale software development skills. But then, you know, at Google, that's when I got bitten by the entrepreneurial bug the first time. So while at Google, that's where I met Joey, who was my second time founder and our current CTO.
and Joey and I set off to build a product. The company was actually called DevTable, but I shortcut it to Quay because that's where we ended up. But DevTable was an online web development environment, so like think VS Code, but completely in the browser. And as part of that journey, we had to build Quay, which was a first private Docker registry, even before Docker Hub was a thing. And we built that to scratch our own itch, and that's a really common theme.
in my journey. So it's like, you know, who am I best equipped to sell to as an engineering minded founder? And it turns out it actually happens to be other engineers. And so by scratching our own itch, we can usually do the like, if you build it, they will come style thing, right? Where if this has been biting us, other people are probably having this problem and are probably willing to commit time, money, other resources into solving it. So that's how we came up with Quay. I mentioned we sold Quay to another startup CoreOS.
CoreOS got bought by Red Hat, Red Hat got bought by IBM, and then we left to start AuthZED. And AuthZED is doing application permissions. Why did we decide to do this? Same reason, scratching our own itch. So at Quay and at CoreOS and at Red Hat, we kept running into this challenge over and over again of how do we do these fine -grained permissions in our application in a way that's scalable, flexible, won't make the security team cringe, and will not slow us down going into the future.
That's what became the thesis for OTSED.
Kyle (07:00.511)
So I'm really interested in this because I mean, you mentioned kind of scratching your own itch and some of the issues that you were running into. And obviously authorization isn't necessarily like the most sexy topic or the most sexy thing, but it is, it's something that pretty much most applications, if not every application has this issue that they're dealing with. And I know because it's something that I've dealt with in literally everything that I've done as a product manager. And so, and we're dealing with it literally right now.
in the applications that we're doing and how do we handle the authorization aspect of these things. So in simple terms, maybe you can tell us what is authorization and why is it so important as part of products and part of applications that we build.
Jake Moshenko (07:49.678)
Yeah, great question. So authorization is the science of determining what a person that you're talking to is allowed to do. And when I say that you're talking to, I usually mean over the internet, but really authorization applies to many media and many facets of our lives. Who's allowed to take money out of this bank account, like at the branch? That's a form of authorization. And this is, we usually refer to this in the industry as AuthZ. So authorization, and that's the opposite side of the Authcoin.
and the other side being authentication, which we'll sometimes refer to as authen. That's who is the person I'm talking to, right? When I walk into a bank branch, they ask me for ID. That's how they figure out who they're talking to. Once they know who I am, then they can determine things like, is this person allowed to take money out of an account? And this metaphor sort of extends into all of the digital products that we're all interacting with on a daily basis. And when we built Quay, it was sort of an afterthought. And I think in a lot of products, it's an afterthought.
Kyle (08:36.817)
you
Jake Moshenko (08:49.134)
You have your core value prop that you're trying to attack. For Quay, it was, how do I store and distribute container images? And it became part of what made us unique is that we allowed you to store private container images with your own proprietary commercial source code and binaries baked into them. And so then the very next question is, okay, well, I'm storing them and obviously I can give them back to the person who gave them to me, but who else should I be able to give these container images to?
And so we did the really sensible thing, which was, all right, let's just copy an existing service who has authorization that we understand. And we chose to copy GitHub as our model. So we said, all right, there's going to be this concept of a repository. Repository is going to hold images. And a repository can be shared with other people with three different access levels. And I forget what the specific names were, but they were functionally like view only, someone who was allowed to upload, and then an admin who's allowed to do things like delete and rename, things like that.
Kyle (09:40.447)
you
Jake Moshenko (09:48.27)
And we built that and we shipped the product with that. And our very first feature request was, this is great, but I need organization support, right? I need to be able to group a number of repositories under an organization. And then I want to be able to federate. I want to be able to give access to those repositories to people in my organization in a uniform fashion across all of the repositories. And then I need team support.
and then I need support for teams that can be parts of other teams, right? And the requests just kept coming. And every time we sat down to solve one of these requests, it was kind of like back to the drawing board, right? Like how do we wedge this into the model that we conceived and that we wrote code for in the beginning? And we just kept doing that. We kept iterating. We kept shipping the features. But ultimately, we got to a place where we had some requests that we were just like, can't do it too hard, not worth it.
And we actually canceled the features that were associated with those requests because it was just too hard to do the authorization. And so like I mentioned, this was an afterthought for us and it's an afterthought for many people, right? You build your most important thing first and then you layer this on. But nowadays, I think in 2024 and moving forward, being able to share things is so ingrained into how we're interfacing with products and our expectations for products, that it's actually coming to the forefront for how people think about...
What is the data that I'm managing and what does my sharing model look like really right up front? Because sharing becomes a core, like a core value prop for a lot of the platforms as well.
Kyle (11:17.695)
you
I feel like you might have been in some of the meetings that I was in just earlier, having some of the conversations that we were having about these exact topics, because it was a mirror of exactly what you were just describing. And so this is just, it's so common. So I'm interested, as you were going through AuthZ, how did you go about approaching some of these problems as you were understanding them?
And you mentioned it being kind of an afterthought for Quay, which was your first company as you were thinking about it. How did it become the core part of what you're doing now? And how do you go about, you mentioned having to put off some of the things that you were thinking about doing initially because it's just not worth the effort. How do you go about prioritizing those types of things now that it's a main focus?
Jake Moshenko (12:13.646)
Yeah, I kind of handle that in two different parts. So how did it become a main focus for AuthZed? AuthZed was modeled after Google's Zanzibar paper. And the way that came to be is when they published the paper back in the summer of 2019, I was acutely aware of the problem because I had felt it so many times in my past. And as I'm reading through the white paper, right, every time Google publishes a white paper, I make it a point to read it because they're usually sending us notes from the future.
Kyle (12:35.167)
you
you
Jake Moshenko (12:43.15)
In terms of infrastructure, they're like, this is how we've solved it for billions of people. This solution will definitely work for you with thousands or hundreds of thousands or whatever. So every time they publish a paper, I go through and I read it. And I'm reading this paper, halfway through the paper, I turned to Joey and I said, this gives us the scalable, flexible solution that we've been looking for. And they've given us sort of a blueprint for how to do it, both at a model layer, like how do you think about these things conceptually?
but also from an engineering layer, like these are some of the things that we've run into and here are the workarounds that we put in place to sort of mitigate or eliminate those problems. And so I said, we should go and we should follow other companies who have commercialized papers and we should just do that right now. I couldn't convince them to do that. And then there was like a global pandemic, but in the middle of a pandemic, when none of us were doing anything else, there was no FOMO.
I did manage to convince Joey and Jimmy, my two co -founders, to leave and found a company based on this. And then so the second part of your question, how does having AuthSend change the way we think about authorization? I think it's really given us the ability to build conviction around the model that we're developing. So we have utilities and capabilities built right into the product to let you model and unit test and integration test these authorization.
Kyle (13:53.055)
you
Kyle (14:01.605)
you
Jake Moshenko (14:07.15)
concepts that you're building in with your actual application code. So you have a high degree of confidence that what you're building is good. And then the model also has the flexibility to support you as your product requirements change over time. So you can sort of fearlessly go in and add an authorization model, even if it's not perfect, because you know you'll be able to sort of iterate your way to the model where you want to be in the future. And all of the things that we got stuck on in the past, those are very easy to layer on.
Kyle (14:31.473)
you
Jake Moshenko (14:35.982)
with the product as it exists today.
Kyle (14:37.733)
You've touched on a couple of points that I want to dive into a little bit. But first off, you mentioned the Google Zanzibar paper. Tell us a little bit more about that. Why has that and did that become such an important part of the thinking behind the way that you structured AuthZed? And why is that fundamentally...
Jake Moshenko (14:41.398)
Thank you.
Kyle (15:04.677)
in your mind, the right way to go about authorization? So first off, what is it? What is the structure of it? And then why is that the way that you decided to move forward?
Jake Moshenko (15:18.176)
Yeah, absolutely. So the Zanzibar paper has sort of three fundamental tenets that make something a Zanzibar. The first one is that it's relationship -based. So in the past, people have thought about authorization as sort of attribute -based, which are what are here are a list of key value pairs that I know about the request that's happening. Or another common paradigm is RBAC.
So role -based access control. I am a user and I have these roles and maybe those roles are scoped. What does that allow me to do? Relationship -based really just blows the door off of those paradigms. And it says, we're going to build a directed graph, right? Like a DAG, if you're familiar with computer science concepts, but we're going to just keep track of how all of the data relates to all of the other data and how the people relate to all of the other people and then the people in data. So you can sort of...
Kyle (16:00.677)
you
Jake Moshenko (16:15.15)
build an arbitrary web of how all of these people and data are related to one another. And then you can traverse that web in a very sane, thoughtful way in order to make your authorization decisions. And it turns out that that's just a much better, like that's a great way to model some of these problems. And you can actually, there's white papers talking about how you can do ABAC underneath the concept of relationship -based access control.
or how it's very trivial to model RBAC under relationship -based, but you're not like contained, like contained within that paradigm, and you're free to sort of branch out and explore and add on other paradigms as your product changes. So that was the first part, the fact that it was relationship -based. The next part is that it was globally distributed. So a lot of times we look at these authorization systems that might come with like maybe a web framework that you're adopting.
Kyle (16:46.053)
you
Jake Moshenko (17:09.166)
and it puts the authorization data right there in the products database, like a relational database, and the data ends up getting siloed within that database. And you can't use the data to make portfolio -wide or application suite -wide decisions. So an example I like to give of how this has given Google specifically a superpower is if you're in Gmail and you send an email with a document link to, let's say, a Google Doc or a Google presentation or whatever.
and one of the people that you're sending it to does not have access to that document, Gmail will do two things right there in line. One, it'll warn you, hey, some of the recipients don't have access to this document. And that's already a superpower, right? Like that's amazing. But the second thing that it can do is it can let you remediate that right there within Gmail. So you can say, all right, I want to share this document with all of the recipients of this email at the view, like give them the view permission on this document.
And that's really amazing. And the reason they're able to pull that off is because they have this single global endpoint to talk about all authorization data. So that's the second tenet. And the third tenet is that it's strongly consistent. So strong consistency allows Google to close off a whole host of errors that might crop up in terms of, I granted access to this thing, but then a person, I revoked it in this other way. Like I added them to a deny list and then added them to a team at the same time. If those are...
processed, if those two events are processed out of order, you can end up giving someone access to something that they shouldn't have access to, which is like, you know, that's game over in the authorization business. So those, those three fundamental tenants, the relationship based, globally distributed and strongly consistent are what we consider to be a Zanzibar. And when you put all of those three parts together, it really paints a really concise, crisp picture about how to do application authorization and why it's safe and why you're not painting yourself into a...
Kyle (19:06.789)
That's really interesting. As you've kind of worked through and created a company based around a lot of these fundamental principles and tenets within that and gotten feedback as you've not only built a company but built a product around that, how have you worked with customers and users and how has that changed
other people's approach to authorization, going from maybe some of the old ways that they were doing it to some of these newer ways that you mentioned within their companies. Like, how has it changed either the way that they do their products or the way that they do their business? And what maybe has been some of the feedback that you've gotten from that?
Jake Moshenko (20:00.398)
Yeah, I mean we've gotten sort of a lot of feedback just based on the APIs and the model that we put out there. And we're very product focused and very empathetic in general. So some of that feedback has been in the form of like, well, maybe this works for Google engineers, but it doesn't work for real people. So we've had to go and we've had to massage and extend the APIs and tweak things here and there to make them more explicit or more understandable.
And we do that with like the standard product management process, right? We keep track of every problem everyone's having. And then we sort of triage those against our roadmap items. And then we prioritize based on how do we do the most good in the shortest amount of time possible. So just really standard product management processes for improving and shaping the API and the product. But then to the second part of your question, how have we seen users use this and transform their products?
It's the things that I was talking about earlier, the fearlessness, the knowledge that you've got a platform that will allow you to mutate your permissions at will, the ability to add point -to -point sharing without falling over. When you think about what Google Docs actually does, they're sharing probably billions of documents with billions of different people in this big point -to -point web. And that's not really something that you can do under a traditional role -based access control model.
Kyle (21:08.331)
you
Jake Moshenko (21:27.886)
I can't say for this document, I'm going to enumerate all 7 billion people on the planet and tell you exactly how, like what kind of access that they have to this particular document, right? Like that breaks down outside of the constraints of like a pretty, like a relatively small company or a relatively small user base. So just being able to add that fine grain authorization and being able to add point to point sharing and these really like sharing heavy workflows are really how we're seeing people transform their products.
Kyle (21:58.853)
Yeah, that's really interesting. Where do you see this going in the future as things continue to develop and products continue to change and companies mature and all of these different things? What are some of the next steps within authorization and within this product space in general? Obviously it's changed probably a lot over the last...
four or five years as things have developed, but what do you see coming next within this space?
Jake Moshenko (22:36.64)
Yeah, I guess I wouldn't be foolish enough to say that this model is the end -all be -all, right? Like things are constantly evolving and changing over time. We already know that there are some things that need help in this model. So for example, if you have a team that has other teams as members of it and that team has other teams of members of it, when you're walking this graph, you kind of have to go hop by hop to figure out who has access to what.
And so we are working on a product right now. And actually, maybe by the time this comes out, the product will be GA, but we've got a product called AuthZed Materialize, which allows us to basically skip all of that recursive pointer chasing that we call it, that hop by hop access, and really flatten that down to just one decision, right? Like we've already taken, we've already walked the entire graph in all of the interesting ways and built a much more concise, much faster lookup version out of that.
So that's one of the areas where we've made improvements. We also think that there's an opportunity for us to be the engine that powers a lot of other authorization tools in the world, right? Like not everybody needs to go out and write an authorization engine the same way not everyone needs to go out and write their own relational database anymore. So if you're building a higher level experience and maybe you're still like you're an authorization company and that's your core focus, but you should still take a look at our product and our open source and be like,
does this make sense to be the engine for my product? We're very liberally licensed and we love that kind of stuff because it broadens our exposure to the different use cases and the different ways that people think about authorization and how they want to use it. So that's kind of where I see our sort of like immediate future. Anything farther than that, I'd be hard pressed. I'm sort of a believer in a lot of the things that AI is doing and I'm interested to see.
how that ends up shaping the space or how that ends up shaping the way people think about applications in general. So I wouldn't venture a guess on how things will shape up beyond that.
Kyle (24:41.733)
Yeah, no, I can definitely appreciate that. I'm interested because you mentioned the open source that your company does. And correct me if I'm wrong, but SpicedDB is your open source database, correct? Tell us more about that. You maintain this open source version. Why do you do that?
Jake Moshenko (25:01.038)
Yep, that's right.
Kyle (25:10.885)
what was the impetus for that and what do you see for that going forward?
Jake Moshenko (25:20.686)
Yeah, the impetus for that was that nobody wants to buy a closed source database in 2024, right? Cut and dry, right? Everybody has lived the I'm beholden to my Oracle bill and my Oracle auditors in the past, and they don't want to put themselves in that position again. And like, nor do I think that they should. So part of it was like, once we started talking about ourselves as a database and branding ourselves as a database,
And this is really like, from a product perspective, this is really a platform play. So getting people to adopt a new platform is a difficult thing. And so anything that you can do to assuage their fears and to make it so that they can really dig in and feel like they have control of their own destiny in terms of what will this product be? How can I fix problems with it? How can I help and aid this thing going forward? And open source just makes so much sense from all those dimensions.
Kyle (25:50.975)
you
Kyle (26:20.581)
Yeah, no, can definitely appreciate that. So I'm also interested as we kind of take a step from the authorization point, as you founded multiple companies, AuthzEd being the second company, Quay being your first, what has been the biggest difference from going in the first company being a first time founder to being a second time founder? What have been some of the...
the things that you saw the first time that have been either the same or different as you moved into your second company.
Jake Moshenko (26:53.55)
Yeah, I can start with different because just about everything is different. So in our first company, we were two people for the full life of it. We were fully bootstrapped. We were building a closed source product. It was a very easy sale. You could whip out a credit card and be using it within 10 minutes. So from that perspective, things couldn't be more different. This time around, we're building an open source, venture backed company that is a very difficult sale because it's a platform play.
And we're a much larger company than two people already, and we have healthy growth plans going into the future. So from the differences, just about everything is different. I'm apparently trying to speed run all of the business models. I don't know what's after this. But things that are the same, I think our approach toward product, our approach toward iteration, our approach toward launch early, launch often, I think that's the best way to...
get feedback, to gain an edge, and to just build things that people love. To just listen to them, be very empathetic, try to put yourself in their shoes, figure out, they're telling you that they need something, but really probe in, try to understand why do they need it, what is this helping them to solve, what is the value that they're deriving from it, and then just working directly to add value there. I think that's been the same across both companies.
Kyle (28:15.333)
Yeah, I think that's such an important point is really understanding some of those needs and problems. I'm interested in maybe what have been some of the biggest surprises as well as you've either founded and built AuthZ or in Quay as well. What has surprised you about either of those companies that you founded or as you've kind of built up the product as well?
Jake Moshenko (28:35.918)
you
Jake Moshenko (28:43.04)
Yeah, I guess one of the biggest surprises from AuthZed are just the types of companies who have actually been hand raisers. So in Kuei, we started with very small companies and then we sort of kept growing and moving up market, up market, up market. With AuthZed and with SpicedDB, we started with the bigger companies because they were like, we've been bitten by this. We're having this problem at scale.
We're dealing with this right now. Can you help us? And I guess we thought we were just going to be running back that playbook again as well, right? So we were like, we'll just start with the small companies and iterate our way into the big ones. But it was like the big ones right away. So that really had to, it really forced us to reconsider our whole like go to market strategy and product development. Where are we focusing on scale or are we focusing on polish? Are we focusing on time to first use, things like that? So yeah, I guess that's one of the biggest changes.
Kyle (29:41.637)
That's really interesting. What did you find as you kind of shifted from focusing on smaller companies to focusing on some of the larger companies? Because I've been in companies where we've made that pivot before and it's a massive, massive change to be focusing on smaller businesses, to be focusing on much larger businesses. I guess, what was your experience in having to make that shift?
Jake Moshenko (30:06.67)
Yeah, I mean, when we look at a five -minute credit card sale versus a multi, potentially multi -month enterprise, you know, on paper sale, you know, what stays the same? I guess what stays the same is that money changes hands at the end of the days. At the end of the day, it's usually a lot more money in the latter, but usually a lot more transactions in the former.
I guess one of the things that I learned was how often people would want to negotiate contracts. Because in Quay, we just put our terms of use on there and we said, by signing up, you agree to our terms of use. And people said, whatever, it's a five -minute credit card purchase, who cares? And now, like, we are negotiating contracts all the time. And that is, like, a pretty surprising thing for someone who's like, let's build a small, like a small, focused on small business company and iterate our way to greatness.
So that's certainly one of them.
Kyle (31:07.557)
Yeah, no, that's definitely understandable, especially as you move into much, much larger companies that it becomes much more bespoke with every single one of them. And it's not a small, obviously not a small transaction and it's far less self -serve, I guess, than some of the smaller transactions that would be more self -serve. So definitely agree with that.
I guess what advice would you have for somebody who is looking to become a founder or start their own company or build a product like you have done a couple of times?
Jake Moshenko (31:52.142)
What is an advice that I would give to a founder? You're going to be with your company if you're even remotely successful for at least three to five years. So make sure you really like the problem space. Make sure you really believe in it. Make sure you really like your founders. We like to call it you're getting founder married. So you're going to be spending a lot of time with these people for a very long time.
So, you know, that's all pretty standard advice, I'd say. But I think, I don't know how many people really understand just how long of a journey it can be and how much of a time commitment. There's a saying, you know, I'll make up the numbers because it's really not that important, but they'll say like, and seven years later, they were an overnight success, right? Like the public doesn't really get wind of the thing until it's like a household name.
already and then it just seems like you went from nowhere to everywhere all at once. And that's usually not what the journey looks like, right? The journey is much longer and impossible to foresee what the journey will look like and how arduous it will be. So just have super high conviction that being an entrepreneur is something that you want to do and that the journey that you're about to embark on is something that you can really commit to and you're in it for the long.
Kyle (33:16.997)
Yeah, I think that's great advice because it is something that, like you said, it's not for the faint of heart. And I think that's what most people have either found out or hopefully have gone into it knowing, but have certainly found out that it's not something that is nearly as glamorous as it's made out to be in either movies or TV shows or that sort of thing. That it's...
far, far more difficult than it is often portrayed.
Jake Moshenko (33:48.046)
Yeah.
I think if you're going into this thinking that someone's gonna make a movie about you, you're probably doing it for the wrong reasons.
Kyle (33:59.269)
Yeah. Or at least if you think it's going to be like a really fun and exciting movie and not like a gritty documentary of some sort.
Jake Moshenko (34:11.246)
Yeah, this is how this person ended up in jail, right? Like that's not the movie any of us are trying to have made about us.
Kyle (34:14.821)
Ha ha.
Kyle (34:18.917)
Yeah, don't aspire to like the true crime documentary.
Jake Moshenko (34:22.446)
Yeah.
Kyle (34:24.325)
Well, Jake, this has been a really great conversation. I do have a couple of wrap -up questions and kind of harkening back to something you mentioned at the beginning. But before we do that, we'd love to know where people can find out more about you, more about AuthZed or anything else that you're working on.
Jake Moshenko (34:46.254)
Yeah, I'm a pretty well -known quantity. You can find me pretty easily on LinkedIn or any of the usual places. For AuthZED, we have our website, AuthZED .com. We have a special landing page where you could actually book a chat specifically with me to talk about authorization in your product. That landing page is AuthZED .com slash podcasts for anybody who might be listening at home and has this particular problem resonate with them.
And then in terms of what we're building, one of the cool parts about the fact that we're open source is you can kind of just go to GitHub. And we've got a list of a lot of our proposals and they'll kind of point you, they'll give you a glimpse into the direction that we think that the product and the software is going to be going.
Kyle (35:30.405)
Awesome. Well, we will put all of the links to that in the show notes as well. So you can check on that and just click on the links. Well, great. Well, I would love to hear about, like I mentioned at the very beginning, anything that you have been reading recently that you would recommend or any favorite books that you have of all time, you could give us either of those recommendations.
Jake Moshenko (35:49.966)
Yeah, I think my favorite book of all time is pretty easily The Martian. I think I read that one in like one sitting and then I read it again in like another one sitting and then the movie came out and you know I thought it did a really great job with that. I love the blend of like sort of like space adventure and hard science and like cluster mess.
We found ourselves in a really bad situation and we got to science our way out of it. I really like that. I really like the Expanse series by James S .A. Corey. That's a pen name. It's actually a duo who writes it. All -time favorite. I think I went through all nine of the books in that series with no pause in between. And each book is, I don't know, I read on the Kindle so I don't really know how many pages it is, but probably about a thousand.
So it was a pretty big time sink, but worth it. Just the whole space opera, the character development, everything in there is excellent.
Kyle (36:55.365)
Yeah, those I haven't gone through the Expand series yet, but I've heard nothing but amazing things about it is on my list. And obviously, I think The Martian is Andy Weir's best book. I've read a couple by him and that's definitely my favorite of his books. I think that's an excellent one for sure.
Jake Moshenko (37:13.422)
Yeah, my favorite too, although I'll say that Project Hail Mary is interesting. That's his most recent book, I think. Definitely explore some concepts that you wouldn't think of, I guess, going into it.
Kyle (37:28.933)
Very true. That's another interesting one. So if you're a fan of the Martian, I think you'll definitely enjoy that one as well. It's a different one, but it's definitely an interesting one, I agree. Yeah, no spoilers. Awesome. Well, and I was gonna ask as well, if you had any products that you are enjoying or using and not, you can...
Jake Moshenko (37:40.366)
No spoilers though.
Kyle (37:54.917)
shout out to anyone that you're not enjoying as well. It could be digital or physical. You did mention at the beginning, a board game. So if you don't have any others, we can use that. But I'll give you a chance to give a shout out to any products that you might be using right now as well.
Jake Moshenko (38:11.79)
Yeah, I'll give you one that's both. Something that I enjoy using and that I also don't enjoy using, and that's ChatGPT. So I enjoy using it to have Dolly make funny images that end up in our company slides all the time. I enjoy it for just sort of like waxing intellectual. You know, what do you think about this? You know, what, just to see what it comes up with.
I don't enjoy it because of the amount of existential dread that it causes in terms of, well, where does this all end? Right? Like how much progress have they made in the last couple of years? Now Google is coming out with AI's with like a million token context windows, which is like insane. I just, I don't know where this all ends, but I guess we're all on the ride together and we'll all find out together. So that would be my answer.
Kyle (38:44.249)
you
Kyle (39:08.133)
Yeah, no, that's a good answer. I keep vacillating back and forth just like you between optimism and the same probably existential dread just depending on the day of when you catch me. But I am with you. I both enjoy it but also have this looming sense of doom about some of it as well. So I guess we'll see where we end up eventually.
Jake Moshenko (39:36.782)
Yeah, there was a great video by the people who did the social dilemma. They made a YouTube video called the AI Dilemma, I believe it's called. And they went into sort of like the near -term future of the multimodal large language models that are starting to come out with like, I mean, Dali is part of that, but then there's like Sora now as well. And there's, you know, Mind Journey or Stable Diffusion or all of these sort of like different...
different areas where we're basically taking the same exact neural network, the same exact paradigm, and applying it to various different media and where that all ends. So that's probably worth checking out as well.
Kyle (40:18.949)
Yeah, we will put all of those links in as well. So great shout outs. Well, Jake, this has been an amazing conversation. I appreciate all of your insights and thoughts on a whole number of topics from founding companies to authorization to AI. So this has been, again, a really great conversation and really appreciate all of your time and insight.
Jake Moshenko (40:42.158)
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Kyle (40:44.261)
All right, and thank you everyone for listening.