0:03
Between the chapters, a weekly podcast discussion focusing on a chapter of the book, 25 years of edtech, written by Martin Weller. here's your host, Laura pasquini.
0:16
All right, welcome to chapter 16. We're in 2009, and talking about Twitter and Social Media, and I'm delighted to welcome Sue Beckingham and Chrissi Nerantzi. And we're here to talk about what life was like back in 2009. That seems so long ago, what were you to up to in 2009? In the world of work life, social media, and Twitter,
0:37
while 2009 was the year that both me and Chrissy actually joined we did you know that Chris, say in 2009? April, we both joined Twitter at the same time.
0:48
We I didn't know.
0:49
Yeah, yeah. I thought just just chat when you joined. And I have to remind myself when I joined, and, and it kind of made me smile back thinking, Oh, my gosh, this is so confusing. This Twitter, who should I follow? I know Stephen Fry. He's supposed to be good on Twitter. Who's he following? And that was my starting point. But at the time, I was doing a master's degree. And I was interested in online communication and how texting was changing things. And you know, how more people got phones, which, you know, was sort of still fairly early at that time, mobile phones, and then it kind of morphed into social media. How's that affecting. So you know, I'd got into Facebook and got into LinkedIn from professional point of view, but that the Twitter was, was very different, obviously. And it started to lead me to find out how it was being used in the US. And I think that was my starting point. And realize when I started make connections with people like Ray Hong Coe, and Eric cavallin, Jeff Jackson, Eric Stoller, that actually, there was something here connected with, you know, being potentially useful for higher education. So that was my my starting point.
2:10
Okay, so 2009 legs, who found out I also, Victor, I didn't know that to join in the same month, even without knowing. When I joined, I had no idea how I'm going to use it, I was actually perplexed how the whole system works, and how this would add value to what I was doing at the time. At the time, I was actually working at Sunderland University as an academic developer in E learning, as it was called back then, and had a vivid interest even back then, in anything using technology to enhance learning and teaching in the same year. I look back at my blog, I actually created my WordPress blog in 2009, which was a transition from an earlier blogger blog I had, but I decided to move because at that time, you couldn't get any other platform where you had a blog class, a normal website. So I made the transition early on. And since then, I kept using it. But yes, I have no clue how I'm going to use Twitter. But my first tweet looking back because you can find these things and I had to look to look it up was actually sharing a tool that I found which is F apart. And I felt that maybe other people would find it useful too. And I think that says something about me personally. And what I have found useful overall in social media it is that sharing and connecting with people.
3:40
Yeah, there's no surprise why I have these two wonderful women on the podcast episode today is I share can kindred spirit with them. So 2009 was the same I signed up for an account in 2008. But 2009 like you Chrissy, I started blogging a bit more professionally, quote, unquote, meaning I was talking about my grad school work, I was talking about the teaching and training I was doing. And it was kind of like Twitter connected to blog connected to like flicker and other social media aspects. All were kind of wrapping in your right to have that community and it's funny that this is housed between like just before the connectivism chapter and after the portfolio e portfolio conversation because I saw Twitter being like the offshoot like you said, the communication channel and where the communities lied, and I laughed because I ironically, I pulled up my own blog. Now they use my personal archive. It's where I take my notes, and the I wrote an ode to hashtags. It was their 10th birthday in 2017. His hashtags were really how we started to find people and interesting topics and have conversations and, and even forum chats. And you too, won't be surprised these who are mentioned in the chapter because they started one of the hashtags that they had conversations around the LT he chats, and I think it says The the learning and teaching in higher education chat and I was like you, I found it really cool space to bring people together. And that's where I was back in 2009. And I had lots of hope for where Twitter could take us and social media could connect us. And I don't know if I still do. But let's let's start with the hope first, because I think we all had hopes and dreams and really exciting things that were really interested interesting to us once.
5:26
That is important. But you highlight that. And first of all, I think we need to thank Martin Bella for including the big chart in his chapter, which is highly interesting and cryptical, as well, it highlights the benefits and the the potential challenges of it, and will be very useful reading for anybody, even now, you know, who is considering starting Twitter, because not everybody is on Twitter, but many are still thinking Should I go or not. So that is important to highlight here, but also the power of the hashtag. Like you say, Laura, and maybe you know, Sue can add to that, which brings people together, you know, you curate conversations in a more focused way that can be extremely valuable for, you know, professional development. I'm an academic developer, so my, my colleagues are my students, but also my peers. And we have seen that it can be transformative for many, even if you silently, you know, and not visibly engage, just following certain hashtags can help you keep up to date. You're absolutely
6:30
right. And I think it also sort of helps to curate or bring people together. So you know, following one particular person led me to the US sad chat. So that then introduced me to other people. So I started following them and then realized, actually, let's, let's look at who they're following themselves. And you'd go down the list of it, and I then started to develop a network. And, you know, it's kind of gone on from there. And it actually gave me an opportunity to attend a conference, there was a conference called foty, the future of technology and education. And to be able to attend the conference, it was free, but there was a limited amount of tickets. And you had to apply for a ticket through through Twitter, and I've missed out on it the year before. So, you know, I thought oh, I better start tweeting about this, you know, I hope I managed to get the right date, you know, and, and get the ticket and and then started to follow a few other people. And that was really exciting when we actually attended the conference, because you met the people that you connected with, you know, so that's where I'd met. So it was 2011 met David Hopkins for the first time. And you know, and then we went on to present the following year at Pelican, which is the Plymouth e Learning Conference, I think something like that. And yeah, we presented there about social media, because you know, we develop that interest. And then it was probably shortly after that I started to Well, I met met Chrissy through Sita conferences, but you know, you, you meet people, sometimes first through through Twitter, and yet you have those exchanges of information, or just listening in, you know, one of the things that I refer to is positive, silent engagement rather than lurking. You know, it's that observing how other people are using Twitter, I thought was, was really interesting. And then, you know, it's just wonderful to actually meet people face to face for the first time. You know, those relationships have developed and you know, you've you've got shared interests or, you know, limited things that you talk about. And then, you know, you might not see those people again, for a very long time, but it's Yeah, it was fascinating how it kind of extended my network, because locally where I was, nobody seemed to be very interested. You know, she's that mad woman talking about social media again. Yeah.
9:04
Well, I will say in 2009, there weren't a lot of people on Twitter. So that's just a reminder, like, Twitter was very young, like, it wasn't even, it was hard to even explain what a hashtag was. It wasn't really brought up in news like we see it today. It's a very different concept. So people forget how like new and novel it was. And it was a space where there were water cooler conversations, and we see people in different pockets. There wasn't there wasn't a scale, there wasn't as big. We didn't have worry about fake news or misinformation. It was not used in the same way it is today. And I think it was a different kind of beast of a platform. Because and this is probably what we're going to get into next. But I do want to say it was a space where people could go to and find a scholar. Like I found Yeah, friends before a conference. I actually thought heard about a job that I had later on. Like these are like, this is how like, smaller Twitter was and some of these communities like you could ask people For help on finding an academic paper, if you're doing research to ask someone a question on how can I do this x thing for student orientation or academic advising, and people would respond back. So it wasn't as flooded in as far as information, scales and people. And it was just a different kind of feel online early days. So that's why I just want to call out, before we talk about later on, when it gets a little ugly in the troll bots and other characters like Martin brings up in the chapter,
10:28
at least at the beginning, the connections you made, you felt that they were authentic. And like you said, you know, you met some people online and then face to face, and I have a very similar experience with the same person. So David Hopkins, but what that meant to me is you you you see these people online, you don't know really how they look for real when you meet them. You think, oh, David was actually quite big, you know, sort of large built, and it is fascinating how you then feel really connected to that person that you have never met before, just because of the conversation of the exchanges. You had online.
11:07
There was a point touch as well. In fact, David David didn't have a photograph. He had an avatar. So it was it was always sometimes a bit of a surprise what people did look like. Yeah, it was it was a cartoony avatar. Yeah,
11:21
yeah, yes. But you did wonder is this a tall person? Is this a short person you notice that the things that you're generally interested in a person and then notice when you when you see them? Yeah, it's fascinating, but the connection is an instant often is really instant and feels like this is a friend from years ago. You know, you know each other really well.
11:42
Yeah, you kind of come to me and
11:43
be like, yeah, yeah. Yes.
11:48
And the key part of it was like I was thinking about it, I'm glad you bring that up. It was it wasn't just a how people use social media, blogs, Twitter, everything, YouTube, tik tok, Instagram, it wasn't. There's no such thing as influencers back in the day, there's no such thing as like promoting things or worrying about a brand. People were there to have conversations, and they were sharing things, and being reflective. And they were building relationships and asking questions, or soliciting for advice, like PhD chat got mentioned. And so I have a big affinity and love for the PhD check me because we would talk about issues and things that we're struggling with in your, in our isolated worlds, in our research worlds, even though we're in different domains or disciplines, we could go and have a conversation about methods or learn about a way to study whatever and, and practice and I was like, it was just really fun space, there was a lot more care with these tools and the social technologies really, yeah, brought people together like I loved when we met people in, in real person, beyond the Zoom Zoom Room, then today, and or, we were able to have a Skype conversation, a few of us with Skype back in the day and, and chat and have more than 140 or 280 characters on Twitter. And that was really lovely. And it still reminds me like I still have friendships and professional peers that we would connect. And it still means a lot to me now because we've been quote unquote, Twitter, friends or online friends for a long time, but they're also really great peers and colleagues that I value. And I think that community aspect can't be forgotten. So I'm glad to bring that up. Because it looks different. If you're joining now, in these spaces, it's different. And 2021.
13:36
I also think it was a connecting branch of your light to to other places. So so for example, you know, I followed Shay, to Raul. And you know, she invited me to do a webinar. And Howard Rheingold, I went on one of his like mini courses, which was good. And it allowed me to apply for some funding. And that's when I met you, Laura, when we came across to to Texas, because I wanted to meet Ray, and Eric and then realize that, you know, America is quite big, actually, you know, once once in Philadelphia, ones in Boston, that's quite a way away. And Jeff Jackson was in San Antonio, so that I can't go to all of those places in America. And that's where I found the South by Southwest Conference. And I thought that's just sounds an amazing thing to go to. And then we met didn't wait outside of it. You didn't actually go to the conference, but we met and then kept in touch afterwards. And then we actually did try to submit a paper didn't wait to the conference the year after and you know, I got to know you better and then Eric, and you know it. It just takes you to different places and that would never ever have happened. I don't think without Twitter, you know other examples is possibly linked. Then, but the social social media does open doors to things that you, you could possibly, you know, have those opportunities, but I don't think I would have done not not not the examples that I've given.
15:13
Definitely these spaces definitely create opportunities for connecting with people and and ideas, I would like to comment on what Laura said earlier about a maybe more romantic past, potentially, and how things have changed now. And, you know, the celebrity status in social media can be intimidating for many, while others really thrive on this, be aware of emerging that are persistent and often also dominate spaces like this, as Martin also highlighted in his chapter.
15:50
Yeah. And I was gonna also say, like, I think about the nature of power dynamics and spaces, you're just saying and how people approach it, there's always going to be for something that's positive, there's an opposing side, so afforded affordances. And identity comes up on these spaces, like we want to democratize conversation, and Martin talks about this. But there's also another group that's feeling marginalized, or out in our outers kind of, and we know this in network study in general. So it has an impact to the offline world when we showed up at events or conferences or meetings, and what does that influence look like? And who reaps those kind of rewards and punishments? So I do like, like, there's that whole section on the paradoxes that we can't call out without calling people in to say, is there? What are the challenges that we've seen as it's been perpetuated? And what do we think about as we, as we work in these spaces or news in use these platforms that we don't own still?
16:54
Absolutely, you know, and I think, you know, where we're at, you know, where people come from ethnicity, whether they're the female, sort of more marginalized groups or whatever, that, that there are people out there, you know, that deliberately provoke and intimidate and, I guess, very, very unkind to actually being completely out of order, in the way that they think, say things to people, and, you know, people have been bullied, and there are the trolls, and, you know, touchwood, I've been on the receiving end of of that, but you know, how people manage that, you know, is it's an individual thing, you know, I think if, if it was me, there's the temptation to do what, just come off social media completely, you know, it's like, if, if you walked into a room when you're attacked, or you walked into that room again, and you were, you know, attacks, then you'd start going in that, that, that room that place, and you wouldn't mix with those people, you know, whereas it can come in as sideways really content on social media. And I guess there is an element sometimes if people are provoking. And you don't feel that it's a suitable thing to be doing is just ignoring it and moving on. Because you know, the tweets will disappear after a while, you know, if you engage in that conversation sometimes that can exasperate it. I don't know, you could argue with is that a cowardly thing? Or is it the right thing? I don't know, I think in a context is always very important, isn't it? But there are some really upsetting examples that, you know, people have shared with me.
18:44
Yeah, I left Facebook a couple years ago, actually, three years ago, because after I finished my last study on it, I just didn't really like the algorithms and what they were feeding into ces 2014, I was kind of really questioning where I want to be in some of these spaces. And probably my behavior is different on Twitter. I probably blog less, I probably podcast more, because I have a podcast problem. I own that I have not taken an intervention on that yet. But I do think I've enjoyed having more meaningful and richer conversations. And I'm not getting it from the platforms that are taking my data. And I had some questions on like, platform for privacy, both on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Facebook owns Instagram and WhatsApp. And so I do think about it. And back in the day, I wasn't because I was for teaching and learning. I was having my students blogging with WordPress, using Twitter to have conversations and using as a signal and sharing with themselves. But what I'd be doing that now, I think of it very differently.
19:42
I don't ask my students to use Twitter in that way. I use I ask them to use it too. Choose to follow organizations, particularly my students are looking for placement opportunities in their their third year. So they'd work in industry. Refer year and there are a lot of companies that have also got social media channels for their job pages. So you know, that kind of thing I think is interesting, or there are professionals that they might find of interest to follow. But I don't give them activities to publicly tweet with the exception of one module, which is a teach digital marketing and introduction to digital marketing. And that they do need to use Twitter so that they can actually understand how it's used in a marketing sense, rather than personal capacity. So that's slightly different. But no, I think students always need to have that that choice, because as we're discussing, it is a very different place. And and some aren't as good as filtering out the things that you don't want to listen to, you know, which is kind of what Clay Shirky used to say, you know, we're talking about information overload. And he always argued, it was filter failure. And, you know, to this day, now, I still keep having conversations with people do you use less that you can just go into a segment of the people that you follow? So you know, whatever the group is, you know, there's a study group or a professional group or whatever, that you wanting to to look at, rather than the whole of your stream, which, you know, seems to have extra things in there. Now, you know, you've not chosen to follow but they still seem to, to appear.
21:31
I mean, Martin says something very interesting and very true for me as well that the loud voices become louder. And why we talk about democratizing and inclusion, it is, we have to acknowledge is a quite exclusive environment, social media that pushes the marginalized voices into the darkness. I would say, from my experience, and what I have heard other sayings, that is also of course, a lot of good. Like we have said, already, and I think for me personally, the problem lies within the platform's themselves, that there are social media giants behind these who make money from these. And if you ask me, you know, what would be an alternative? I think that would be fascinating to explore, and see how we can remove beyond social media to to go back if you like. And that sounds nostalgic, to go back to how it used to be, you know, to have people connecting with with real people with being authentic to who they are, and not portraying something that they are not.
22:41
Yeah, it's interesting, as I listened to you both share, like I'm thinking about what I wasn't thinking about at the time. And so you mentioned like, all white dudes that were on these spaces and the white dudes that create these platforms. So I'm a white woman, my point of privilege looks different. And where I sit in the world looks different. And I really didn't think about what voices weren't being heard or amplified, and ones that weren't even being thought of in these honestly, patriarchal suite systems. And I also think a challenges for me were looking across to I haven't been trolled that much. It was only during that GamerGate conversation hashtag that I had to deal with some real trolls and bots. But I will think about, like, the people that walk into these spaces, like they walk into life, they're gonna have challenges, whether it's their affinity groups, their sexual orientation, their race, their, you know, language, I think with an all the time now and I wasn't thinking about that back in the day. And I am unpacking my privileged backpack to say that I'm still learning and this is an ongoing practice. And I have to be aware of context. And what this means because a lot of these spaces honestly, we're being repurposed for marketing crap. And I know this because I think about a study on George Vela Chanos and a couple other grad students and I looked at only Canada in the US, but all our institutions in higher ed in America and Canada, are all like promoting stuff. They're highlighting positive events and showcasing public university of the life but they're not hitting the realities of what is really troubling some of our learners, they're not talking about how they can help their students in different ways. And it just became a different vehicle for like, broadcast message delivery and not really conversation, community and support. And so I had some issues like was, as I was finishing my PhD and and doing a postdoc 2015 is kind of like, these spaces are not the same and they not really endanger our control. So what should we be doing to take that back or take ourselves out of it? And I think I listened to my new stem roadies talk on her TED Talk. She wrote a book called bored and brilliant and she said you know the two types of people that are call their clients, you Users are drug dealers, and people who creates social software platforms. And so if you're the user, you're also part of the product. And, and I think about that more and more on like, Where do I want to be in these digital spaces and pockets these days? And what is my purpose or intent? I still don't know. I'm figuring trying to figure it out. So maybe you can help me with that.
25:24
That's fascinating. What do you say, Laura? Because I had written down, you know, social media can be a drug and opium of the masses, which I know that in Greece recent history, when we had, you know, loads of problems, after the Second World War, football was the opium of the masses. So has, you know, that being replaced by social media? You know, it's pretty interesting to find out but experiences seem to indicate that this may be the case. footballs proper soccer, just so
25:59
you might other listeners know that she's saying soccer. I love. So I'm a big football. No, it's good. It's good. I don't know who's listening. So I just like to put in little tidbits.
26:10
It's an interesting point, actually, that makes me smile a little bit, and how how people that I would say, are professionals, and maybe a little bit stayed in their ways, Saturday afternoon on Twitter, Oh, my gosh, that turned into another being, you know, particularly if the team isn't doing as well as they want their team to do and you know, they don't agree with the referee at the time. And you know, that this conversation is going on on Twitter, and suddenly they've completely forgotten that, you know, they've, that they're public, and other people can see this, it's a bit like being on a train, isn't it? When you're listening to your mobile phone, you answer that phone, and all of a sudden, you're in this bubble, and you've forgotten that everybody around, you can hear every word, you know, they can probably hear the person on the other end. But yeah, people forget, where they get sometimes a little bit carried away that
27:06
one thing I think would be useful to highlight, though, is the opportunities to connect with others, that social media and Twitter present to individuals who are lonely, who are on their own, who have nobody, you know, nearby to talk to. So it can be a lifesaver for them, as well. But also another point, which is not directly connected to this is to what you said earlier, Laura, about using these spaces, you know, and now use for marketing, etc, and generate, you know, loads of cash for for certain companies that are behind it is that people have always we have always appropriated tools that have not been designed specifically for learning. This is not the learning technology that has been designed for learning we have appropriated this. So we have, we are actually the parents, it's, you know, that have come into that space and used for something that it wasn't intended to. And that has always been the case that technologies that haven't been intended for learning and teaching seems to be the ones that work
28:12
more,
28:13
we just need to remind ourselves of the interactive whiteboards, for example, which is a technology that has been designed specifically here in the UK, it's, it is in every classroom, but is it used? You know, that's something to what extent or do we just use it for PowerPoint? projection? Yeah.
28:35
And I think as long as Twitter developed, you know, in the original, small amounts of characters that that grew, and then we got some, you know, direct messages, group direct messages. And I think that that was a nice step forward in a recent in the recent few few years, because that, that allow those personal conversations to go into that group, it was almost like chat, you know, I mean, there's obviously WhatsApp now as well. But, you know, something would have come out of that, and let's, let's have a, you know, private conversation. And, you know, reaching out, as Christie said, to, you know, people that you, you see them tweet something, and that kind of gives you a little warning bell that says, Let me just check up on that that person to see how they are. So, you know, because you're connected on on Twitter, it's quite easy then to, you know, jump in and do that direct message. And if you wanted to, you can make it into a, you know, a large, larger group. Whereas, you know, the WhatsApp, you need to know the person's telephone number. So, you know, I think that that's been useful. And you know, I've certainly appreciated it when people have reached out to me and they kind of thought I was just chat cashiers there's there's obviously something going on there.
29:52
Well, I think I want to say Chris, he reminded me, I think social media maybe saved my life. So I want to say like, I moved to town. As in 2008, end of 2008, beginning 2009. And coming from Toronto and Canada, to the state that I never thought I'd move in. That's so conservative. I was like, Who are my people? And how do I find connections? Or how do I stay connected to peers? So I think I'll own this, which I didn't reflect back on that. I think it really helps me to blog and stay connected on Twitter. And it's when I started being part of, I think, Alec Karos. And I think of Tonya Houston, I think of other people that like, I got to know, and feel like I'm part of a community, personally and professionally, because I was just studying learning sciences, and getting into my own practice and what that meant, and I don't think I could have done it without the scaffolding of some social media aspects. Like I may not be in some spaces anymore. But I'm just reminded that I had a community and people individually, so I didn't feel isolated. And I didn't feel like disconnected from Canada or disconnected from people I would get to know in the profession. And I think it did help me because I think I struggled my first year I don't, I don't want to self diagnose depression, but I think it was pretty bombed to leave a really cool city, Toronto to move to Dallas, and I was like, I'm in a concrete jungle and I have to drive a car again. And I, I wasn't really happy with my life. But I could go online and find other people to like, lift me up or learn about other things. And I think that was something I wanted to say that that's a pretty strong thing for a lot of different affinity groups and learners that are like, I feel a remote now because we're in the pandemic and they still probably feel a little bit off and disconnected. So it could be an opportunity, but knowing that this space isn't meant for it, it's where conversations go,
31:41
Yeah, can I do that to share a personal experience linked linked to yours which has to do with my doctoral studies, I was a part time PhD student working full time with a family was no cohort attached or anything in a completely different city. And I felt extremely lonely you know, the supervisor support will never be enough. So I did feel lonely, but I had bad there was our cost from go gn the graduate or net or the global right I need to get this right because the global graduate network, who found me and and embraced my study, and I found, we see it not as a family, it has become you know, so these online conversations and obviously physical, also get togethers on an annual basis. For some of us at least it has been a lifesaver during that often very lonely, and disheartening journey that stretches over a number of years. But during that journey, we have loads of questions and loads of unknowns as we know. And we often feel incompetent, I would say at least for myself, I don't want generalize and bring anybody else in competent of bringing it to completion. So having knowing that there are peers out there somewhere around the globe, and this case with go gn is magical and gives you hope, and also builds your confidence and develops competencies, because we do support each other through that network. But also with my methodology, I used a fellow monography. I reached out because I reached a wall. I couldn't get through this. And I thought I need help. And I actually went to Twitter. And a very dear colleague who became a friend and Margie Macmillan responded to my call for help. She was an experienced front of an okorafor. And yes, I mean, if it wasn't for Twitter, or social media, I would have no chance of connecting to all these lovely people around the world and learning from them and with them.
33:47
Can I give a shout out to if you haven't listened to chapter 11? between the chapters, I had a rich conversation about the go gn group all the supports with Judith, Katherine, Virginia and Marin and that conversation, they are lovely did they talked about so go listen to that. And I want to give a shout out to Dr. Nancy Maria's. She's going to start the PhD chat hashtag. And she's the founder of that. And she's now doing great work, but founded that to help build on PhD capabilities and leaders in that PhD chat conversation. Yeah, that saved that saved me for research. And then there's so many others, like my advice, chat, the academic advising group, I was an advisor professionally at the time. And if I didn't have that water cooler once a week, or once every couple of weeks, then I would have been at a loss because I felt like there weren't people doing the same things I was doing or didn't have the same kind of issues or challenges. And like Sue said, they weren't people working in these digital social spaces that we could talk about how to teach, learn, and work with social media because that was foreign at the time, believe it or not, and listeners, the youth that are listening today what no one didn't have a tick tock. No, these things Snapchat weren't around then. So these were Things that I really felt supported by others, like you all,
35:04
what would we do during the pandemic? network technologies? I mean, I've been wondering if a pandemic happened 30 years ago, you know, how would our life be? I don't know.
35:17
Would we be writing cards, postcards, letter matches?
35:20
We used to write
35:21
letters that do on telephone, isn't it? Where you were on the phone using? How much will that cost me?
35:28
That's true. This is true.
35:30
What walk me down the road, because my dad actually, you know, as a youngster, and put a lock on our telephone, there was there was three girls in our house. So I used to like to save up my time to pens pieces and 10 pens, pieces that went in the phone was two slots. So I'd have you know, big, big collection of coins. And you just hope that you know that they keep on going. So you could have a conversation.
35:54
We take for granted the ease of communication. And this is reflected in a number of our chapters. I was wondering, I'm thinking about what's in this chapter. Is there anything missing that we should call out? Like, I think he did a good I really like the way that the paradoxes were shared there. And I know that Martin touches on Twitter the most and other social media in general. But is there anything else that you want to mention? Or include?
36:20
It struck me when I was looking at the social media and learning bet that this the four parts to it so this, it, potentially could increase student recruitment, student engagement, student retention? And there's the conversations that are happening between prospective students and existing students that most people have no idea about? So, you know, this, the Student Room, for example, you know, whether talking about you know, which University Do I go to? What's it going to be like, what do I need to know? But then there's things you know, that link on to is it right, my professor, universities have tried on the marketing departments for universities have tried to use this as you know, something to bring students in. And you've already mentioned at Laura, that, you know, it's all the wonderful things that's happening, you know, in the think, of a particular observed in American universities, you know, the big sports teams and the mascots and you know, it's very rah, rah, rah, rah, rah, and, and wonderful, but, you know, how do people think, you know, people that aren't engaged with those kinds of sporting activities, you know, what's University going to be like, for the people that have got to commute for an hour and a half every day, or go back to care for their families, you know, and all those different situations, they're not going to have the same student experience. So there's, there's lots more to explore, to see if it is possible to actually do that in a positive way. You know, we're clearly not doing it to the best of what we could be doing. But, you know, what more could we were doing. And it's interesting, sometimes seeing universities and I think our university, my university has done it is where you have student takeovers, so they'll take over Instagram, you know, and sometimes that can make it more authentic and more more engaging, because, you know, the students will talk to students, and then there's a bit of interaction going on, and understanding where where the spaces they frequent are, you know, there's, there's a little bit of chasing the students to find where they are, it's like, you know, where, where's the local pub? Okay, we'll go there now. So the students move from that local pub and look, somewhere else, you know, wherever I'm using the pub as analogy for where wherever they socialize, but the social media space, you know, is that really a good thing to do? Are we encroaching on their spaces, which means that they feel that they've got to move, move on and go some somewhere else. And it's interesting talking to students, my students and their, how they have their support networks. So you know, Whatsapp is quite popular, still. discord for computing students is popular. But you know, I've heard a lot in the last few weeks talking to students as an academic advisor, and they're using Snapchat. So they've got their groups and, you know, the sharing, you know, it used to be text messages. But yeah, they seem to like the the apps, but it's just always changing, isn't it?
39:26
Yes, I would pick up I would agree with so on. Perhaps what is missing is I would love to see in some examples of how social media and Twitter has been used successfully and effectively with with students I could be potentially, maybe Martin for the future, something to do a mini selection of, of case studies where this has actually worked. Like I said earlier, was good and thank you so much for being generous dimension, the ltac chat, but I would have liked also to see the coachee and a feature in there and all the important work You know, Martin and colleagues are doing in that space because we are using extensively social media for that as well, then, I mean, this is a discussion about, I understand social media, but what is behind and what we are saying is about social learning. So something that I would have liked to see maybe more in in this chapter or maybe again, another opportunity for an extension of version two Martin has speaking directly to you would be about how can we move beyond social media to get social learning? How can that happen? And to what extent can actually exist in frameworks, pedagogical frameworks, conceptual ones, and empirical ones? And so when I have developed one, for example, the five see help in this process, but are there any other spaces? Are there other opportunities we can harness and maybe should harness to go back to, to the good things of of being authentic and connecting with each other?
41:01
I love that some of the work and why we're in these spaces is because we're social, like it's forget the media part, but like, how do we interact with each other? My question to Martin would be, like, I'd like to say we started talking about the research side, and not such a big thing to do. And I know this from the digital media, digital learning social media research group work we've done too, there's so many pockets of where this is and how this is being studied on different lenses. So I'm thinking of trusting McMillan's work I'm thinking about, there's so much Bonnie Stewart has some great work and projects. So I always want to highlight where different voices are talking about it. And this honestly, Martin is a very complicated chapter. So I think it's very brave that you can capture as much as you did in the chapter, because Twitter and Social Media are not small topics, but you touched on it for people to think about and poke at. And so I'm going to kind of think about questions that I would ask the community now is, how are we examining some of these speech spaces? So I want to think about the research? What are we looking at these days? And what are we thinking about? If you're going to scaffold for any sort of professional development, training, teaching learning? What are the opportunities that are still there, that we can create pockets? I think all social media is looking the same these days. So I'm kind of like snore on that. I don't think I'd study this anymore. But if I was to study is like, what are the interesting communities interactions and like, lessons we can pull from? And one of the areas I want to ask are and them and kind of curious as the work that happens in these spaces that are volunteer, the moderators, those who facilitate chats, on Twitter, they work on groups, or they're leading different conversations in WhatsApp. So what's the hidden work behind that? What questions would you have for the community or Martin, about this before we wrap up?
42:54
Yeah, you got a fascinating, that's fascinating, what you say? And definitely there needs to be more research in these spaces, and to see the real value. The the challenges I think we are quite aware of, but where are where do the opportunities? I think lie that is important. I mean, we're still we set up the the chat in 2014, the lght chat, and since then, we haven't really evaluated you know, what we have done, it has grown since then it started as a pilot. But we can't stop it, it seems like unstoppable, you know, the community has taken over. And well, can it go on forever? I'm not sure. But in a few weeks, I can't remember the date. So you might remember we are at 100. When is right? In my exact days. Yeah. Today, we are celebrating the 203 Cha, which is a big milestone. And the idea is that Sue and I will be running a sort of trying to start evaluating the initiative, what people are getting out of it and where this will take us in the future. Because can it go on forever? Can it go on in this format? Like you say no, there are all kinds of, of different challenges and commitments required from everybody involved.
44:16
If you want to study the chart, you can talk to me and I can advise chat paper I'll share with you. There's different ways to study it. So happy to share.
44:24
Well, that would be fantastic if you can help us and maybe even be present during that chat on you know, all in preparation even because we are preparing for that what question to ask etc. We would very much I'm sure you would agree. Welcome your wisdom and expertise in this area. Absolutely.
44:44
Yeah. And do the perspective is is speaking to students and seeing seeing what their perception is skin. A lot of the things that we've been talking about, and how it's been valuable has been our personal experience our own professional development. You know, sharing of teaching practice or or being PhD students or research or any of those other things that are part of our working lives. But you know, what, what do the students think. And I've spent a couple of wealth for four years with students in recent years on a special interest group after they attended the social media for Learning Conference at Sheffield Hallam and they call themselves smash, which is social media for academic studies at Hallam. But what we looked at is like, Okay, well, let's sit down and discuss how can we use social media? You know, and that's kind of for the learning things. So inside now the classroom keeping in touch with each other, there's the collaboration, the sharing, of learning, and there's a showcase of learning, which, you know, if they've got a professional presence online, that's really important, as is the flip side of not having one and, you know, understanding what value things like LinkedIn can bring. And also, there's the supporting side of things. So there's those kind of fourth four strands, and it was interesting seeing my students tease those out, and, you know, share their experiences and use of a range of tools, and I'm gonna say social media tools, they'll be other apps and things. And using that, to have a discussion with both their peers and tutors to see how it could enhance the learning experience to develop that sense of belongingness to organize themselves, you know, learning in group work, for example. So, you know, the conversations is not just for us, it's bringing in the students, with you and fellow colleagues and having those rich discussions and potentially debates about what platforms we shouldn't shouldn't use anymore, because of all the things that we've mentioned, you know, and an understanding that what's out there needs to be filtered. And, you know, not take it for granted that they have the confidence to do that. You know, it's one of those things you you have to practice, don't you expressing your views, and, and so forth?
47:29
I find the conversation fascinating, I have to say, and it made me think of the following, because I think probably all three of us are of the generation where social media was not our default open was not our default, it was a private was our default private communications and letters and phone calls to individuals and not to groups, etc. So I'm just wondering if that makes a difference to the younger generation? I don't have an answer, but their default is open by default, everything is public, everything is out there. And is that the reason? Or could that be one reason why they are retreating, perhaps into private, smaller spaces, or conversations that are private and shy away, or don't recognize the need, you know, or the value of having these open conversations on Twitter or online social media? So that that is something that would be very interesting, I think, in any research to explore if Martin Laura or anybody else is doing, you know, I think that would bring some insights into where we are now. And what could be a possible pathway for the future. I mean, there will be multiple pathways, I suspect and there should be there should be choice. Sue mentioned that earlier as well. Definitely,
48:50
I think from a student's perspective, you know, and this is students going and going back down to, you know, younger students at school, not just higher education students, that, you know, have experienced bullying, there's this thing that you've got to be sharing that the very best of your life, which then makes people you know, think, Oh, my gosh, my life so boring, what can I find to make my life look as you know, wonderful and perfect as you, you know, there's all the associated problems that come come with that, and that's, you know, became a bit of a thing. I know, my, my daughter's that they're both in the 30s now, but they said, Thank God social media wasn't there when we were at school, you know, I'd have been a nightmare. And you know, they're they're really grateful that they didn't have that because it was, you know, distracting and you know, the things that were shared.
49:43
Something i'd love the community to think are and this is my challenges on where are you doing in what communities and what spaces are relevant to you now and what does that mean in your own practice? Because as much as I want to, to learn, or I'm not going to keep up the learners like keeping up with the Joneses, I think it's really crucial. For us to reflect on our own practice professions identities and what this means. And I'd be curious just to know where people are at. And I really hope there's a blog or a response back to this for the podcast, because this can go on forever. But I will stop us here and thank our guests for coming on. This conversation can continue probably on ironically Twitter and Social Media. And I just want to thank you so much Sue, and Chrissy for your time. It's never been gonna end just now because who knows where we'll spiral into. So thank you so much.
50:32
Thank you for inviting us. Thank you for writing that chapter. And including us because otherwise we wouldn't be here. So thank you. Yes. Thank
50:40
you, Martin. Thank you, Laura.
50:42
Thank you.
50:44
Thank you, sir.
50:44
Thank you. Thank you social media for connecting us all. It's and Twitter. You've done some good work out there. Twitter. Thank you.
50:53
You've been listening to between the chapters with your host Laura pasquini. For more information for to subscribe to between the chapters and 25 years of ITT tech visit 25 years dot open ed.ca