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The most uncensored conversations about censorable things coming out from the much-censored country of Singapore. Hosted by Haresh & Terence from the comedy house Ministry of Funny.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:18:01
Speaker 1
If you've always wanted to work with us. Good news. We're hiring. Two roles. Two very different jobs with one thing in common. We want people who give a damn and want to work for shit. The first rule is a creative producer. If you've ever watched one of our videos, listen to one of our podcasts or scroll past one of our posts and thought it like those.
00:00:18:03 - 00:00:42:00
Speaker 1
The thumbnails. A bit of it. Something about this isn't quite right. This rule is for you because you will work alongside our team to help shape and protect how everything we make, looks, sounds, and feels across the board. Ministry of Funny and fuckery. It's a hands on rule and you'll be in the thick of everything. Reviewing edits, writing copy, managing timelines, and doing whatever it takes to keep our quality kickass and on brand.
00:00:42:01 - 00:01:05:19
Speaker 1
The second is a growth hacker specifically for fuckery, our audio service that turns people's personal stories into timeless podcasts. We are looking for someone who is genuinely excited about digital products, obsessed with scaling things, and curious enough to know what's working in consumer retail now, and especially what's coming next. Because we need you to level up my website, the customer journey and Leap growth experiments that will bring full to the world.
00:01:05:20 - 00:01:22:01
Speaker 1
And for both routes, we don't really care how many years of experience you have, but we do care that you have, taste and understand our brands and also be able to execute, and that you're here to make things not just manage them. So if you're interested, check out the full description at the link in the show notes, or just head on over to Ministry of Fun e-commerce.
00:01:22:01 - 00:01:37:06
Speaker 1
And if any of the rules tickle your fancy. Send us your CV and cover letter to contact at Ministry of Funny Icon. All the details are in the show notes. And now onto the podcast. What's up everybody? Welcome to another episode of Yalla!
00:01:37:06 - 00:01:38:09
Speaker 2
Buh buh buh buh.
00:01:38:10 - 00:01:43:01
Speaker 1
Your thrice weekly podcast where we talk about the hottest news with a touch of what there is.
00:01:43:02 - 00:01:44:10
Speaker 3
Good old humor.
00:01:44:11 - 00:01:52:18
Speaker 1
Good old humor. Yeah. Three's a very special episode where we're talking about something super important. Yeah, that we have touched on, but we haven't really gone deep.
00:01:52:20 - 00:02:00:21
Speaker 3
Yeah, we haven't gone deep. And, we haven't had the, you know, someone who is an expert or at least really understands the region properly. Yeah. To talk about.
00:02:00:21 - 00:02:23:17
Speaker 1
It. Yeah. So we're very excited today to have, Professor Side, Farid Alatas, who is an author, but and also a professor of sociology at us and has been since 1992. Welcome. Prof. For it. And I mean, like what we mentioned, we have spoken about what's happening in the Middle East, just from what we see in the news from the perspectives of, you know, two Singaporeans trying to understand what's happening.
00:02:23:23 - 00:02:34:24
Speaker 1
But but, how how have you been keeping track of, of things been been going on and how how are you thinking about what's happening right now in the Middle East?
00:02:35:01 - 00:03:12:08
Speaker 2
Well, for first of all, thanks for, having me. It's good to have the chance to talk about these, very important issues that affect everyone, as I think we all understand. Yeah. By now, affects everyone in the world. I suppose I could say that, this issue is both, of, intellectual or academic concern to me, but at another level, there's also a personal level because, my wife is from Iran.
00:03:12:10 - 00:03:40:20
Speaker 2
And we have family, we have relatives, living in Iran who are affected in a very direct way. So the war is like a nightmare. And at a personal, level, and we are extremely worried about, our relatives and friends, of course, at another level, it's concerning because of the way it affects all our lives.
00:03:40:22 - 00:04:12:19
Speaker 2
You know, the in, the, the economic, impact, on this, livelihood of people, prices, you know, inflation, supply chains, these are all the issues that everyone is worried about, all over the world. And we realize that a conflict in a very far off place, thousands of, kilometers from from, Singapore, from our region can affect us in very fundamental ways.
00:04:12:21 - 00:04:35:19
Speaker 2
So, yeah. So it's, you know, it's, it's difficult, I think, at all levels. Yeah. And there's so many, issues that, you know, we can discuss, in connection with, this war. It's not just about Iran. It's not just about Israel. It's about the the world order.
00:04:35:22 - 00:04:43:04
Speaker 2
There's so many, so many, you know, topics that, emerge from this, this episode. I mean.
00:04:43:04 - 00:05:01:14
Speaker 3
Do you talk about it as a nightmare? Right. But how did it actually feel when it first happened that weekend, when you heard none of the attacks happening? Like, like, what was it a culmination of something that you've always worried about or fear, or was it, completely a surprise when you first heard about it?
00:05:01:17 - 00:05:31:10
Speaker 2
Know it wasn't a surprise because, the first war happened last year. In the summer, Iran was in Iran, in the US were in the middle of negotiations and, and Israel attacked, Iran. Yeah. So we had already started. And so when, during the second round, that started on February 28th, it was, something expected.
00:05:31:12 - 00:06:08:02
Speaker 2
And the feeling was very similar to, to what we felt, last June, you know, that, that fear, Since October 7th, 20, 23, you know, we've, you've had, more than two years of, you know, war on Gaza. And we saw the in the utter destruction, to Gaza, and destruction of lives and property.
00:06:08:04 - 00:06:29:02
Speaker 2
And that was horrific. But in the case of Iran, it's, it has a different dimensions. As a personal dimension, we're actually worried for people that you actually, know and and love. So that that makes, you know, the nightmare all the more, you know, difficult to, to deal with.
00:06:29:04 - 00:06:49:19
Speaker 1
So. So maybe before we dive into, like, what you said, the the many facets of how this war impacts you, not just on a personal level, but the world. Your research. Maybe you can give us a bit more about, your background, because we know you have been teaching, sociology at and us since 1992. You've written multiple books about, you know, decolonizing education.
00:06:49:19 - 00:07:03:23
Speaker 1
You've written about the great Muslim philosophers. So, so maybe you can, can help us understand your interests in not just the middle East, but sociology as a, as a whole.
00:07:04:00 - 00:07:37:10
Speaker 2
Well, yeah. So I'm a sociologist. It means that I'm interested in. Relations between groups. And the dynamics of, of groups. When I say groups, when I say groups, I mean, any kind of social group, you know, human beings exist in groups. We, you know, we don't exist in isolation. Sometimes, you know, well, we can think of groups, at different levels.
00:07:37:10 - 00:08:07:11
Speaker 2
You've got very small groups, a couple, family, a neighborhood, community, an ethnic group, a religious group, a nation state, or transnational groupings, like, I mean, you think about, you know, a Chinese diaspora, or you think of, Palestinian, diaspora. These are transnational, groups. So that's in general what sociology is about.
00:08:07:17 - 00:08:36:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's about groups. But I'm interested in, well, I mean, it's very hard to pinpoint what I'm interested in because, you know, sociology is a broad areas, and we're interested in different, topics, different ideas. So I guess, for, for a long time, I've been interested in how certain groups dominate other groups.
00:08:36:04 - 00:09:10:12
Speaker 2
And that's related to my interest in decolonization, that we have been, the Europeans started to colonize the rest of the world since 1492, when Christopher Columbus, went to America. This that was the beginnings of European colonization. So it began with the Portuguese and the Spaniards, and then later on followed by the, the French, the, the British, the Dutch and so on.
00:09:10:14 - 00:09:35:17
Speaker 2
Now we are used to thinking that colonial colonization was over, when Latin American countries began to, obtain independence, beginning in the 19th century. Asian and African countries in the 20th century. So we talk about being in a post-colonial period. Yeah. Which I think is actually very wrong. We are actually in the neo colonial period.
00:09:35:19 - 00:10:15:21
Speaker 2
We're still colonized in a different way. We're not directly ruled by the Americans and by the the British and the French and so on. We're not directly ruled by them anymore, but we are still dominated and controlled. And when you look at what is happening in Palestine, when you look at what is happening in Iran, few weeks ago in Venezuela, the, the, the, the threat of the US to move into Cuba and to, as President Trump put it, to take Cuba, all these indicate that we're still living in, a kind of colonial era.
00:10:15:21 - 00:10:39:22
Speaker 2
There's still coloniality. And I think the term neo colonialism is good because it's a new form of colonialism without direct, rule. Yeah. So, this is one of my areas of interest, you know, to study, decolonization, how we can truly decolonize both our minds as well as the, the way we live our lives.
00:10:39:23 - 00:11:02:22
Speaker 1
So, I mean, when you say decolonizing minds, I know you spoken about decolonizing education. Would you say, like, when you say, you know, we are still controlled? Does it extend to the institutions of academia? So, like the universities, everything that I mean, we both studied in the US, were our minds being colonized, out of minds of people who just follow the Western education in some way, being colonized?
00:11:02:24 - 00:11:41:22
Speaker 2
Well, I think it's a little more nuanced than that. First of all, you don't need to go to the US to have your minds colonized. Sometimes you may need to go to the US to decolonize your mind, like, because there are a great number of, sociologists, anthropologists and, geographers and, you know, people in cultural studies and comparative literature in U.S universities who are dedicated towards decolonizing the mind, and these would be Americans as well as, you know, people who come from other places, who live and teach in, in us, institutions.
00:11:41:22 - 00:12:14:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. On the other hand, you could have never stepped out of Singapore. Yeah. Or Malaysia or any, you know, country in Asia, Africa, studied in your own institutions and received, thoroughly colonial type education. Yeah. So, decolonization really is, is a matter of, perspective. And you can be colonized or decolonized anywhere you are.
00:12:14:20 - 00:12:15:10
Speaker 2
00:12:15:12 - 00:12:20:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. So what is a colonial education movie can help us understand what you mean.
00:12:20:04 - 00:12:23:20
Speaker 2
Okay. So.
00:12:23:22 - 00:12:57:21
Speaker 2
One way to put it is that a colonial education is a Eurocentric education. It's an education which gives you a Eurocentric bias about the way the world functions, about the way the world is. Right. So, what do we mean by Eurocentric, bias? It means looking at the world through European or let's say, Euro-American experiences.
00:12:57:23 - 00:13:24:04
Speaker 2
Without realizing it, it means you you think you're getting an objective perspective, when actually you're getting a biased perspective. You know, an example I always use in class, I mentioned 1492. This is, what do you think when when we say when you hear the word the the the the year 1492.
00:13:24:06 - 00:13:27:23
Speaker 1
I mean, America was, was discovered.
00:13:28:00 - 00:13:50:17
Speaker 2
Exactly, exactly the discovery of America. Okay, now, that gives the impression that America was unknown. And it's the first it was the first time human beings found America. You know, like when the when the first, the first time, humans went to the moon. Yeah, yeah. So we can say that this is the first time human beings have gone to the moon.
00:13:50:19 - 00:14:13:08
Speaker 2
But can we say that 1492 was the first time human beings, knew of America? We can't say that because they were already American. They were already people in America. Yeah. Unless you, dismissing them as human beings. Which in fact did happen among the Europeans, they did dismiss, dismiss the Native Americans, as, fully human.
00:14:13:10 - 00:14:40:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. So it would be more accurate just to speak of the European discovery of America. But instead we, we, educated all around the world that, that was the discovery of America. In other words, the European experience is generalized as a universal experience. That's the problem when a European experience is generalized as a universal experience.
00:14:40:23 - 00:15:10:07
Speaker 2
That is what is to me that is a core trait of Eurocentrism. You know, our colonial, knowledge base, it also leads us to another trait, which is that the voice of the non-European is is silence. Right. So we don't when you say the discovery of America as if, this is the first time humans discovered America as if there are no humans in America.
00:15:10:07 - 00:15:45:19
Speaker 2
Before Columbus went there. You are discounting, you are dismissing as irrelevant the, the voice of, of the non-European. Yeah. And in fact, you know, in the 16th century, in the first decades of the 16th century, there were actually debates in Spain about whether natives, the natives of America were human beings. Because there was this idea that if they were not human beings, then it's legitimate.
00:15:45:21 - 00:16:07:05
Speaker 2
It was legitimate to enslave them, to treat them as you as you treat animals, you know, to treat them, you know, in agriculture, you use, you know, cows and bulls, use horses, you know, as, as labor. Yeah. We could do the same thing to Native Americans if they were not, humans or they're not fully human.
00:16:07:05 - 00:16:27:22
Speaker 2
It was justified. And this debate was going on in the, in the church. So it gives you an idea, you know, as to how, the, the Europeans, dehumanized non Europeans as part of the colonial, project. Yeah.
00:16:27:24 - 00:16:52:10
Speaker 3
I mean, I mean, when I hear what you're saying, it does couple colonialism or imperialism with, a lot of Eurocentrism. Right. But at the same time, we're here in Singapore chatting where, you know, Japan's imperial ambitions were made Singapore a colony once. And now we talk about China as a superpower in the region and how how does that all fit into, you know, talking about Eurocentrism and imperialism.
00:16:52:10 - 00:17:00:10
Speaker 3
But then we see in, in Singapore the realities of, you know, Japan and China also having those ambitions. Yeah.
00:17:00:12 - 00:17:30:18
Speaker 2
I don't, suggest that Europeans, were the only colonial power. Yeah. Certainly the Japanese, did aspire to be a colonial power. And they did colonize some parts of, of Asia. They were very brutal. All that cannot be denied. So we're not, suggesting that, the Europeans have a greater propensity to colonial evils.
00:17:30:20 - 00:18:02:12
Speaker 2
Right. But we can say that they have been since the 15th century, the, the dominant colonial power the various European states have have, you know, collectively, shown themselves to be the dominant colonial power, far more dominant than the, the Japanese. That I think that's that's the point. So it's not to suggest that in the future they may not be non-European colonial powers who may be as brutal, albeit brutal and, than the Europeans.
00:18:02:12 - 00:18:03:09
Speaker 3
00:18:03:11 - 00:18:21:11
Speaker 1
So, so I mean, on that note, in your study of groups, especially when bigger groups dominate smaller groups, if you like, is there anything you have come to conclude, like whether that's just human nature and at any point in time, be it in the past or in the future, the bigger group will always dominate the smaller group and is about how to find that balance.
00:18:21:11 - 00:18:30:17
Speaker 1
Or do you believe that there can be a world where big countries, small countries all live in like, pure harmony?
00:18:30:19 - 00:18:33:18
Speaker 2
Maybe in a parallel universe? I mean.
00:18:33:21 - 00:18:35:00
Speaker 1
Not in this.
00:18:35:02 - 00:19:02:20
Speaker 2
You look at the history of this universe. This this world. Yeah. This generally never been such a state, right? There's never we've never existed in such a state, of, of, of peace and harmony. And we've been, our history has been characterized by, by, by and domination by empire. So we, continuously in this, struggle.
00:19:02:22 - 00:19:35:20
Speaker 2
I think what makes, the modern world a bit different is that we were promised, for example, we were promised by the Europeans, that these kinds of things would not happen again. You know, the European Enlightenment. That, since the, 18th century, 19th century, the Europeans have become enlightened, through science and technology.
00:19:35:22 - 00:20:07:02
Speaker 2
They would be able to order our lives in a rational, scientific manner, harness nature for, for the good use of, humanity, deploy, political systems. That would allow for freedom, for peace, for all and so on and so forth. This is the promise of the enlightenment. But, you know, they have, not delivered.
00:20:07:04 - 00:20:39:03
Speaker 2
None of us have delivered the actually, so when these things happen, you know, when, when conquests happen, when, cruelty, exploitation, economic, inequality, poverty and all these things, take place. We feel that, we are not living up, and especially the Europeans on, the, the Euro Americans are not living up to the ideas that they espoused and that they, in fact, continue to, to espouse.
00:20:39:05 - 00:20:39:22
Speaker 2
00:20:39:24 - 00:21:10:19
Speaker 1
So to me, you know, just now, you mentioned, like, when you hear Trump talking about taking Cuba or Greenland, Russia just invading Ukraine. I mean, for me, I was born in 84, grew up, grew up in the 90s. And all this feels like how how is it possible that in this day and age this is happening? But for you who has studied, you know, the history of groups, history of empires, colonialism, is that something that you're like, there's almost that you're not that surprised that this is happening now because it was inevitable.
00:21:10:21 - 00:21:49:03
Speaker 2
That's exactly true. I would be surprised if it doesn't happen. The differences today, I mean, when I mean when I say today, I mean in this last, few years, especially under Trump, America, under Trump, the big difference is that the colonial mentality has become very blatant. What is in terms of what is actually happening, things are not that different from, you know, America and Obama or America and Biden.
00:21:49:05 - 00:22:17:23
Speaker 2
America was just as imperialist, you know, under previous, presidents. Yeah, as it is today, what really is different is the rhetoric is the language. There's open talk, along the lines of a more colonial language, among the Americans, and a very unsophisticated, to say the least.
00:22:18:00 - 00:23:10:19
Speaker 2
But if we were to be more critical, a very crass, language, you know, is is used, for example, the secretary of state, Marco Rubio. Yeah. Spoke last month at the Munich Security conference, and he was, reminiscing about the the good old days of colonialism. And he was speaking in a very praiseworthy manner about the, European colonization of, of America, without once referring to, the the mass killing and genocide against native Americans, which was an outcome of European colonization of America.
00:23:10:21 - 00:23:38:19
Speaker 2
The secretary of War Texas. Yeah. When in talking about the war on Iran, spoke about, giving no quota, no mercy, which, you know, which is horrific. Yeah. You know, you you a civilized, country does not talk about war in the sense, you talk about defending yourself. Yes. But not about no quota, no mercy.
00:23:38:21 - 00:24:02:01
Speaker 2
President Trump himself. You remember there was that incident, a couple of weeks ago, when an Iranian, Navy ship was, sunk Sri Lanka off the coast of Sri Lanka. Report to us and, President Trump, why the U.S. did not capture the boat rather than sink it? And he said it was just fun to sink it.
00:24:02:07 - 00:24:14:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, this this this is a kind of, it's a very, yeah, barbaric colonial discourse. Yeah. Right. Which is actually very frightening. Yeah, yeah.
00:24:14:02 - 00:24:32:19
Speaker 3
I mean, the at the same time, the U.S. or Americans is they're not really a monolith either. Right. Like, I think their society is very divided now. And, yeah, in the past, I think I remember the justifications for the Iraq war back in the day were like, they still went to the UN and talked about weapons of mass destruction and everything.
00:24:32:19 - 00:24:49:11
Speaker 3
But now, it seems like that that mosque is often what do you think has changed in, you know, in the past few decades within America that people are so much more open to talking and talking in that manner that you talked about?
00:24:49:13 - 00:25:15:24
Speaker 2
I think, that's a good point. America is not a monolith. It's it's very heterogeneous. You have, ideas, across the spectrum. Yeah. From, you know, very pro war, pro Republican, pro Christian Zionism, pro Trump, to, you know, all the way to the, the other end of the spectrum, you know, to the left.
00:25:16:01 - 00:26:00:16
Speaker 2
And you've always had dissenting voices. You've always had voices, irrational. Reasonable, voices, that critical of U.S. imperialism, critical of, coloniality and so on. That, that has been there for decades. In fact. I think, what has really changed the, well, so many things have been happening. But I think one of the things is that, after October 7th, 2023, when a lot of Americans saw the utter destruction of Gaza, the disproportionate response to Hamas attack, against Israelis.
00:26:00:18 - 00:26:28:22
Speaker 2
And when people came around to the idea that what was taking place was a genocide, and people saw this because partly because of, to a great extent because of, the, because the social media. Yeah. That changed the minds of many Americans about the idea that the Israeli army, the Israeli army is the most moral army in the world.
00:26:28:24 - 00:26:57:15
Speaker 2
The idea that, Israel is, a victim, rather than a perpetrator, it had changed many people's minds, minds about, how to evaluate Israel. So you have, people like, the journalist and influencer Tucker Carlson, who's who is, on the right and remains on the right, but who's no longer a Trump, supporter.
00:26:57:17 - 00:27:29:17
Speaker 2
Yeah. And, you know, has taken a very critical view towards, Israel. Yeah. I think who appreciates, you know, aspects of, Muslim, civilization and Muslim culture because he recognizes that, he's he's a devout Christian, but he recognizes that, Christians, in the Holy Land in Palestine, live in peace side by side, Muslims.
00:27:29:23 - 00:27:56:00
Speaker 2
And it's actually, Zionists who treat Christians in Palestine or in Israel badly. He's he's actually been there and, and, you know, interviewed, Christian leaders. So he, he has really his mind is really, open. And there are many people on the right, who, including many influences who have come to that. We have, come around to that way of thinking.
00:27:56:02 - 00:28:31:06
Speaker 2
So, I think this experience, experiencing, you know, in the last two years, what had been happening in, Gaza, has really changed a lot of people's minds about, about Israel. And, that spills over into their views about Arabs, about Iran and about Iranians, about Islam, about relations between Islam and Christianity or even there's a lot of discourse in America about, how, Jews have lived under, Islamic rule.
00:28:31:10 - 00:28:47:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. And, you know, over the centuries, and I think it, it's that they have sort of been able to change their views about, whether Muslims are generally anti-Semitic or not.
00:28:47:24 - 00:29:05:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. But do you think it goes both ways because I'm also seeing more people saying we finally have a president who is doing what needs to be done. Do you think as much as it makes people look at, you know, Israel a different way, it has also given people to look at Israel as like, oh, they are doing stuff that should have been done a long time ago.
00:29:05:24 - 00:29:35:05
Speaker 2
I think that has always been there. But, I think what the the war on Gaza and the war now on Iran, has actually split, the, the so-called MAGA group, you know, make America Great again, right? It's actually split them. Yeah. So I think his, the support for Trump is not as, you know, it's not altogether the as it was, before this was started.
00:29:35:07 - 00:30:01:14
Speaker 1
Is, you know, we've spoken about the, the, what the U.S. is doing, what Israel is doing. But I know you've also spoken publicly about the Islamic leaders and how the, Muslim community around the world, in some way correct me if I'm wrong, but there's tensions, you know, between the Shiites and Sunnis. How do you think that has contributed to what we see in the world today?
00:30:01:16 - 00:30:40:16
Speaker 2
We we need to to be honest, in our, critique, so we critique the U.S for its imperialist stance and its practices. We, we critique, Israel for its, for its being a colonial settler state because it is a colonial settler state. In my view, it's, it is one of the last, it is one of the last bastions of, the old style of colonialism, you know, where you rule directly, right?
00:30:40:17 - 00:31:03:14
Speaker 2
They they are they're colonized, Palestine and the ruling Palestine directly, much in the same way that the British, ruled of, Malaya. So they have to be called out. They have to be, critiqued for, for this, the Europeans have to be critiqued for their role in all of this and their inactivity.
00:31:03:16 - 00:31:40:21
Speaker 2
So do the Arabs. The Gulf Arabs. Many of the Gulf Arab states, I would say, compromise their sovereignty by allowing, you know, the Americans to have, that basis there. They mistakenly thought that they would be protected by the Americans. And I think they have come to the realization that they, the Americans are not to be trusted because the Americans seem more intent on protecting Israel than, the Gulf Arabs.
00:31:40:23 - 00:32:15:12
Speaker 2
And even countries that are victims right now, Iran is a victim. I also, should also be criticized because, you know, you may be a victim in one instance, but you also may be a perpetrator in another. So, for example, I think to the extent that Iran, supports, the Houthis in Yemen, or their support for, the brutal regime, in the Syrian regime.
00:32:15:12 - 00:32:58:00
Speaker 2
And, I said, these are very problematic because these are very brutal regimes are brutal groups. Yeah. The way they've conducted themselves in Syria, in Yemen. So it's very, very to me, very problematic that Iran supports those groups. So we I think we have to be fair in the way we, we criticize, in the way we, we conduct our, our critique, to defend Iran from imperialistic attacks, from the US and from Israel is not to condone other things that Iran might have done right.
00:32:58:02 - 00:33:30:03
Speaker 2
Iran does have problems. It, there have been over the, the decades and more recently in the last years, many a movements, among Iranians, you know, that have been critical of the government, you know, the, the, the movement known as Zen Zindagi Azadi, which means, women, life, freedom.
00:33:30:05 - 00:33:52:14
Speaker 2
In the last couple of years, that was a very serious, movement fighting for for freedom. And then, before that, in the last couple of decades, I mean, more than 15 years ago, you had the, the green movement, and more recently, you had protests in Iran, you know, in January.
00:33:52:16 - 00:34:09:04
Speaker 2
So, these are serious issues. So the Iranian government is not angelic. Many of the governments in the region are not in general, and that includes the Arab governments as well. So we need to be fair in what and how we, we we critique.
00:34:09:09 - 00:34:27:21
Speaker 3
So, I mean, the, the interesting thing is that, you know, some people are saying that the US made a miscalculation here, and the early rhetoric was always going to be a quick thing. We're going to go in, decapitate the leadership of Iran, and then regime change will happen, you know, but it's proven to be harder than than it seems like.
00:34:28:01 - 00:34:52:10
Speaker 3
Can you help us understand that, especially on the ground in Iran? Like, what about, you know, Iran is a country or its people? That would make it really hot for us. Just you know, regime change like that to just happen after the leadership is decapitated. Like, is there something special about the the people, the mindset or the way they, they view how what the US is doing?
00:34:52:12 - 00:35:23:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, there is something, I think a few things that are important to to understand about Iran. It's a large country. About 90 million people. It's a very well-educated country. I think in terms of, science and technology, they're the, most advanced in the region. Apart from Israel. But they certainly, much more advanced than the, the Arab states.
00:35:23:15 - 00:35:51:07
Speaker 2
They, they lead in certain areas, obviously, you know, in, nuclear physics, and nanotechnology in some other areas, they, they do very well in terms of, research, in terms of the publications and citations of their publications. A lot of people don't realize that, about Iran, and, they have very high, extremely high literacy rates.
00:35:51:09 - 00:36:27:10
Speaker 2
Literacy among women is very high. You know, women are, very well educated. The majority of, in most universities, of students are women. And that includes sciences and engineering. So, they're very admirable in that sense. And for more than 20 years, particularly after the US invasion of Iraq, they've been preparing for this, for invasion.
00:36:27:12 - 00:36:56:02
Speaker 2
Especially since, you know, the US had progressively invaded countries in the region. Probably at the behest of the Israelis, you know, Afghanistan, Libya, and, so they were waiting for this. So they've been preparing, in so many ways in terms of building up their, you know, developing ballistic missile capabilities.
00:36:56:03 - 00:37:26:22
Speaker 2
Also consolidating their command structure, their political structure. They, they worked it out in such a way that you have autonomy at different levels. You have decentralization so that if the leader is taken out, at any level, leader is taken out, the the structure still continues. There is a system of, you know, the replenishment of, of leaders.
00:37:27:00 - 00:37:33:18
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think this was very important. This is not understood at all by the by the US or by the Israelis, you.
00:37:33:18 - 00:37:52:07
Speaker 1
Know, so, you know, just now, like what Terran said about the US not being monolithic, I would imagine Iran is the same. And I would love to hear your perspective because you, you have family who, and like, like suffering. And, help us understand a bit more about Iran because we even when you said they have been preparing for this.
00:37:52:07 - 00:38:10:24
Speaker 1
Right. I can't imagine all 90 million, the full population. Right. Are you referring to the government because there were protests for a reason, right. Citizens himself feel a certain way that seem to be at odds with the government. So maybe if we just go one level deeper. What else about Iran's society? The people, are different from each other.
00:38:10:24 - 00:38:32:14
Speaker 1
And. And what can we understand that maybe we do not understand, because personally, I've seen people share pictures of what Iran used to look like in the 70s and 80s before the Islamic Revolution. And sometimes they feel like what what is going on in Iran, like when you see the, the, they have advanced nanotechnology. I'm surprised by that because it's hard to find info about Iran.
00:38:32:14 - 00:38:47:19
Speaker 1
That is, you don't even know what to believe. Yeah. So what else about your own society when you say most of the students at university Varsities, are women. But then there was also a lot of clamping down on women's rights. So how do those live together?
00:38:47:21 - 00:39:23:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's true. Like any society, it's a society of contradictions. Yeah. So you women have made a lot of advances. Since the revolution. At the same time, the, problems, the, many women in Iran and men as well, against forced, veiling, you know, the enforcement of the hijab and, for some women, for many women, in fact, they protested against that.
00:39:23:07 - 00:39:58:22
Speaker 2
And in fact, they have gained some freedoms because now, after so many decades, you see women walking around without hijab, in Iraq and in Iran. So, there's all these contradictions and it's not and perhaps the hijab is a symbol of, that the, the, the, the movement, against enforced hijab is a symbol of, of a larger resistance, against, problems that Iranians find with, the government.
00:39:58:24 - 00:40:03:03
Speaker 2
So all these contradictions are there.
00:40:03:05 - 00:40:37:23
Speaker 2
But. Despite the, despite these contradictions and beside, despite the misgivings that many Iranians have about their government, they are overwhelmingly united in the face of external aggression. I think this is very important. So Iranians are very, Whether religious or not, whether, supporters of the government or not, they are very nationalist. And they do not tolerate outside interference, even for those who want their government to change, they want the change to come from themselves.
00:40:38:00 - 00:41:07:01
Speaker 2
Not, you know, for the Americans or the Israelis to intervene and to install a puppet, government or a puppet, leader. And I think this is very important, the Western media, tends to portray the perspective of some Iranians in the diaspora, especially in America, who actually have been cheering on the, you know, American and Israeli bombing of, of Iran.
00:41:07:01 - 00:41:09:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, that was what I was going to ask because I see a lot of that. Yeah.
00:41:09:06 - 00:41:23:02
Speaker 2
That's right. Yeah, yeah. But that's a misrepresentation of the Iranian population. The vast majority of Iranians, do not feel that way, including those who are decidedly very much against their, their government.
00:41:23:04 - 00:41:26:13
Speaker 3
So is it a problem of, your new colonial mindset.
00:41:26:13 - 00:41:29:10
Speaker 1
Is my new colonial algorithm like, it's showing me all this.
00:41:29:16 - 00:41:30:24
Speaker 3
Too much Western media that.
00:41:31:00 - 00:41:47:01
Speaker 1
The same thing when, when Maduro was captured, we saw videos of people celebrating on the street, and. And then we found out there was AI generated. Yeah, but, I mean, I've tried my best to. Whenever I see, someone saying, yeah, I'm Iranian. To all those who are condemning the war, you have no idea. You have no right to speak.
00:41:47:01 - 00:42:01:00
Speaker 1
And then they go on to list why they are actually happy that it, Trump because only Trump could do it. So then I'm thinking like, is it is that really a widespread, sentiment and sounds like it's not they tend to be more anomalies. Yeah.
00:42:01:02 - 00:42:23:19
Speaker 2
Yes. I think so, definitely. Yeah. I mean, and it makes sense, you know, how, how can you, you support, the bombing of, your country when your, you know, your people are dying? No. And is is it worth, going through that? All that destruction of property of of lives, to, to, you know, to change your, your government.
00:42:23:19 - 00:42:51:03
Speaker 2
I think any rational, reasonable, peace loving, Iranian would not support, not support that. And, if, you know, if they thought that, the US, was the Liberator, I think now it's clear that, it is not, you know, that one of the first casualties was the school of, you know, young, girls.
00:42:51:06 - 00:43:00:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. Almost 200. Girls were were killed. Yeah. So, you know, where does the liberation in this, in this war?
00:43:00:13 - 00:43:34:14
Speaker 3
I mean, I've seen interviews where you did, say that, Iran is the only anti-imperialist, country in the region. But at the same time, I hear, you know, the other Arab states, they're very angry with Iran for their retaliation and what they've done so far. Like, why is the why isn't there more support from, I mean, all least from the neighbors and all about the fact that Iran is trying to stand up to, you know, an imperialist, approach from the US and Israel.
00:43:34:16 - 00:44:04:22
Speaker 2
We we need to make a distinction between, the states, and their populations. I think the, in countries, in some countries in the region, many, many people, are happy that, Iran is standing up to U.S. imperialism and also to the sub imperialism of, of Israel. You know, they're happy about that.
00:44:04:24 - 00:44:27:18
Speaker 2
But I have to qualify that statement, because to hear sectarianism comes in. So you have people, you do have people who say that, Iran is as bad as Israel. Iran is a Shiite state, the, deviant Muslims, or the upside of the fall of Islam. So we should not support them.
00:44:27:20 - 00:44:51:22
Speaker 2
Others who? Other Sunni Muslims who are against Shiism, they may take the view that, okay, we are against Shiism, but at the same time, it's good that Iran is attacking Israel. Iran is fighting against Israel or standing up to Israel. So there's that that view as well. Then you have governments who, for one reason or another, you know, are beholden to the US.
00:44:51:24 - 00:45:17:13
Speaker 2
They want the presence of the US, in the region. They're dependent on the US. Or at least they thought they are dependent on the US for protection, for investments. So they have they have that stake and, in other words, you one could argue that they are on the imperialist side. So they would not I support, support Iran.
00:45:17:15 - 00:45:27:13
Speaker 2
They're dependent on petrodollars. As the US is. Yeah. So, they, they need the presence of the, of the US in the region.
00:45:27:15 - 00:45:37:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. So has anything about the war and how it has unfolded. Surprised you. What has been the most worrying thing for you.
00:45:37:07 - 00:45:53:05
Speaker 2
I think the most worrying thing is the the, the possibility of, greater disunity in the region.
00:45:53:07 - 00:46:25:17
Speaker 2
The fact that the US that Iran has attacked, not only the US bases in the Gulf, but also, the installations, and even civilian areas, where they claim that, you know, there was a us, presence, for example, us soldiers, living, staying in hotels. This has angered a lot of, people in the Gulf, especially the, the, the governments.
00:46:25:19 - 00:47:02:19
Speaker 2
And I think it it it's, it functions to somewhat alienate, them from, from Iran. And it's going to take a long time to repair the relations. But what is more disturbing is that, you know, if countries like Turkey, the Gulf states, Egypt, come together to form an alliance, to form a pact, to have, defense, you know, treaties, and, that that I think serves to further isolate, Iran.
00:47:02:21 - 00:47:38:15
Speaker 2
And it also, serves to, potentially perpetuate the imperialist role of America in the region as opposed to a scenario that I would prefer, that I would think is better for the region. Whereby, the US, stays out and normal basis, and that the region is governed, by the states themselves, meaning the Arabs, the Turks and the Iranians.
00:47:38:17 - 00:47:43:07
Speaker 2
And I think that would be ideal in terms of, establishing peace and security.
00:47:43:11 - 00:47:49:09
Speaker 1
But then when as Israel fit into all of that and then.
00:47:49:11 - 00:48:13:05
Speaker 2
I think there are a lot of benefits from this. First of all, there would be peace, that they would regulate, you know, trade, investment, both among themselves as well as, to the external world, with the external world, there would be a lot of mutual benefits. For example, I think the region has a lot to benefit from Iranian science.
00:48:13:05 - 00:48:39:13
Speaker 2
And technology. Iran is also a very large market. And with the unity of the region, they can deal with the, with the Israeli problem. And I think the Israeli problem is something that has to be dealt with in a very fair manner. Certainly. Not wiping Israel off the face of the earth.
00:48:39:14 - 00:49:03:02
Speaker 2
And that should not be the, the goal. And in fact, that has never been the goal of, even the Iranians. The Iranians often, if you've heard the expression, you know, Iran has been accused of, saying that Israel should be wiped off the, yeah, wipe, wipe off the map. Yeah, right.
00:49:03:04 - 00:49:27:01
Speaker 2
They actually never said that. You know, people keep repeating that phrase, without going back to the original phrase. Which has been mentioned by Khamenei and others. They actually referred to wiping the Israeli regime.
00:49:27:03 - 00:49:59:03
Speaker 2
From or removing the Israeli regime from the pages of history. The key term here is regime. They were they, they were and are against the colonial apartheid regime. Not the state, not the country. In other words, not that, Israelis should be, you know, removed from Israel, as you know, thrown into the sea, that that was never the idea.
00:49:59:03 - 00:50:10:00
Speaker 2
The the idea even among the Iranians was that, there should be a state that allows Jews, Muslims and Christians to live in equality.
00:50:10:02 - 00:50:10:21
Speaker 1
For.
00:50:10:23 - 00:50:37:20
Speaker 2
Many, progressive Jews themselves believe that, Noam Chomsky himself said that the Israeli regime should be dismantled, the apartheid state should be dismantled. He's not calling for you know, for the destruction of Israel in the sense that, you know, Israel, Israelis should be sent away and, and, the state be left just to Palestinians.
00:50:37:22 - 00:51:14:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think these things should be, should be clarified. Whatever it is, Israel cannot continue in the way that it exists today. You know, as an apartheid type, colonial state. And I think, if there's sufficient unity within, within the region, they would be able to, you know, better deal with, you know, I mean, help, Israel Palestine to arrive, at, you know, a better state.
00:51:14:07 - 00:51:17:08
Speaker 3
But I mean, just looking at what.
00:51:17:10 - 00:51:59:07
Speaker 2
How about I want. Sorry, I really need to emphasize. Right. That whatever solution there is, that there should be a nation, which allows for absolute equality between Jews, Muslims and Christians. Whatever the sins of the, you know, the past colonizers were, whatever atrocities were committed, by the early Zionists in know in, after the Second World War, in, in grabbing land in, dispossessing Palestinians of the land, whatever sins were committed.
00:51:59:09 - 00:52:25:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. The, descendants should not have to pay for that. That's very important to, you know, to emphasize. Yeah. You know, the the sins of the, you know, of the ancestors. Yeah. It should not mean that, rights are taken away. Basic human rights are taken away from the, descendants.
00:52:25:00 - 00:52:47:03
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, so I, I, I was going to ask, like, is that too idealistic? Because in the last five years or whatever we've looked at, you know, institutions like the UN and seen how ineffective they've been in reining in what, what Israel was doing. And, you know, everything is sort of just pushed aside. I mean, you can declare the leader war criminal and nothing, nothing happens.
00:52:47:06 - 00:52:57:06
Speaker 3
Like is are we still like, are we generations removed from that kind of, solution or resolution that you're talking about?
00:52:57:08 - 00:53:31:07
Speaker 2
Yes. I mean, I wouldn't say it's too idealistic. I think we need to be idealistic. Now, how how realistic it is in terms of when this can be achieved. Is another matter. But, you know, if you look at how fast things have accelerated in the last couple of years, one of the effects of, the, the war in Gaza, has been, a really rapid, and fundamental change in world opinion about Israel.
00:53:31:09 - 00:54:04:12
Speaker 2
But the conduct of, of Israel, I think people know, don't easily fall into the trap of, you know, the anti-Semitic trap that if you criticize Israel, if you criticize Zionism, you are anti-Semitic. A lot of people fail to fall into that trap. And and that's a very important, development. I think more people are coming around to the idea that, there's a distinction between Judaism and Zionism.
00:54:04:14 - 00:54:34:14
Speaker 2
Many, people around the world understand that, there are many, religious, Jews, including, you know, NGOs and, and movements, devoted to Judaism, but against, you know, the Zionist state, against apartheid. I think these are very important religions, developments, and they make for alliances between Muslims, Jews and Christians.
00:54:34:16 - 00:55:14:18
Speaker 2
As far as the religious sector is concerned, and also alliances between them and, secular people. So these are very important developments, which we would not have imagined, you know, before October 7th. So how things are going to develop in the future? I don't know. But what is true is that to the extent that the war on Iran, has weakened us, has weakened the US presence in the region to that extent, then I think the people in the region will have more control over their own destiny.
00:55:14:20 - 00:55:23:02
Speaker 2
And therefore, I think this would have some impact on, developments in Israel and Palestine.
00:55:23:04 - 00:55:48:16
Speaker 1
So, I mean, I totally agree that there is a need to be idealistic and that the seems like there can be hope there. But what do you make of the commentators conspiracy theories or maybe people that, you know personally, like, I know some people who feel that, perfect harmony is never going to happen because, certain demographics of the different religions do believe in, you know, the end of days, the rapture, the Messiah coming.
00:55:48:16 - 00:56:12:15
Speaker 1
And this is all an inevitable thing that will happen. And all these are shaping up to the end. We can change destiny, because when I hear things like that, I'm like, oh my God. Is that is that happening? And what do you what do you make of that? Be it from, you know, sociological point of view or religious point of view, or is it just the fringe extremists who are propagating these sort of perspectives?
00:56:12:17 - 00:56:38:02
Speaker 2
Well, it's not all always, they're not they're not always on the fringe. It depends. It depends on where you are. Right. If you're in the US, then they're certainly not on the fringe. You know, you're talking about Christian Zionists. Yeah. Who are certainly solidly behind, Jewish Zionism. In other contexts, in other places, they may be, fringe.
00:56:38:02 - 00:57:18:04
Speaker 2
They may make up fringe elements, but not in the US. But basically, this is the problem of religious extremism, whether it's Christian fundamentalism in the from in the form of, Christian Zionism, whether it's in the form of Jewish, Zionism or even Muslim Zionism. I'm talking about Muslims who believe in, this, you know, division between Israel and Palestine who are at best silent about Israeli, colonization of Palestine.
00:57:18:06 - 00:57:49:14
Speaker 2
Who, believe that, Iran is the enemy, not Israel, and who believe in strengthening ties with Israel, glossing over the problem of, Zionist colonization. So there is such a thing, I think, as Muslim Zionism. So these these are the forces that, you know, that we need to be aware of and, and to and to check.
00:57:49:16 - 00:58:18:23
Speaker 2
But see, my point is, without, you know, any illusions that this is something easy to, to solve. My point is that the people in the region, talking about, the Persian Gulf, you know, Iran, Turkey, the Gulf Arab states need to be in charge of their own destiny in order to deal with this and other problems, whether economic or political or cultural or religious, they need to be in charge of their own destiny.
00:58:18:23 - 00:58:46:19
Speaker 2
They don't need, to be dominated by American politics. Right. I mean, how can you have, a state, thousands of miles away with, you know, MAGA or Christian Zionist, politicians? Like Lindsey Graham and, you know, egging on the government to go to war. In alliance with Israel to go to war.
00:58:46:19 - 00:59:10:05
Speaker 2
I know, against, Arabs or against Turks or against, Iran. It seems like Turkey is supposed to be the next state that Israel needs to, to tackle. And then some of some, statesmen have Israeli statesmen have have said as much, they've said that much that, you know, the next problem after Iran is, is Turkey.
00:59:10:05 - 00:59:26:01
Speaker 2
So it's never ending, you know, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Iran, and then Turkey. It's never ending. So when, is the the region going to be able to, you know, be in charge of its own destiny?
00:59:26:02 - 00:59:26:21
Speaker 1
00:59:26:23 - 00:59:51:00
Speaker 3
I mean, you know, this morning we were just talking that so there have been commentators who have come on our podcast and even, like, predicted that this war, this war with Iran would happen and it could lead potentially to World War three. Right. How worried are you about, that possibility of eventuality that it could be a wider regional war or even a nuclear conflict, the rise of this?
00:59:51:00 - 00:59:51:11
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:59:51:13 - 01:00:25:03
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. I think that, fear is always looming in the background. That, if Israel does not succeed in its objectives, it may resort to using what they call tactical nuclear weapons, which I guess means limited, nuclear weapons that have a limited effect. Yeah. Which is still something terrible. Yeah. And that if, the conflict continues, there would be more countries, getting involved.
01:00:25:07 - 01:00:53:23
Speaker 2
The Chinese, the Russians, and it would spillover into, a global war that that fear is always there. I, I think I'm less worried now than I was a few days ago, because it seems like there's some conversation between the US and and Iran, seems like, countries like Oman and Mosul, Pakistan. Are playing the role of, mediators.
01:00:54:00 - 01:01:23:01
Speaker 2
So I'm hoping that this will, will end, sooner rather than, than later. Yeah. And I think it's partly because, the world, can't take what is happening. You know, in terms of the economic, disruptions, the, the, restrictions, for ships going through the Strait of Hormuz, it's causing a lot of, disruption, affecting supply chains.
01:01:23:03 - 01:01:44:02
Speaker 2
The price of, oil and and natural gas, so, you know, hopefully that, you know, those economic, chokes, going to wake people up to the need for, secession, secession of the, of the, of the war,
01:01:44:04 - 01:02:07:12
Speaker 1
Bringing, bringing all that into Singapore. Right. You mentioned that the impact of the war is having things on raising prices. Not just all, but all the downstream products. But what about the, the mindset of individuals say, you know, Muslims or Jewish people in this part of the world? Do you think there's any spillover or lasting impact in terms of how they view each other?
01:02:07:14 - 01:02:15:24
Speaker 1
How do you view the role of, the imperialist, colonialist, small country, big country? What's the impact of that?
01:02:16:01 - 01:02:33:05
Speaker 2
I feel the the is. That there would be a minimal impact. Simply because we don't have enough discussion on it. On these issues in Singapore, open discussion.
01:02:33:05 - 01:02:36:14
Speaker 1
Singapore specifically.
01:02:36:16 - 01:03:04:05
Speaker 2
Singapore, more so than other countries. Because, I think there are many restrictions on, on organizing, public discussions on debates. So many things that I would say need to be clarified. In people's minds, many questions that people may have. And there are few opportunities to, to deal with these questions.
01:03:04:08 - 01:03:36:04
Speaker 2
I mean, for example, If one is inclined to support Iran against, American Israel, some people may, may feel guilty about supporting Iran because they think, well, supporting Iran means you, let's say if you're a muslim, it means you're supporting Shiism. Which you might think is a problem, or supporting Iran means that you are anti you are anti Semitic.
01:03:36:06 - 01:04:29:17
Speaker 2
Right. Or supporting Iran means that you are excusing Iranian excesses elsewhere in Yemen or in the past in Syria when it's supported brutal regime. So people have to be be able to iron out these contradictions in their minds and that, this ironing out comes from discussion. Right. With others who have similar problems and from discussion with people who have different perspectives, what one should be able to, to think that you that Iran can be a victim when it is invaded by the US, when is subject to an imposed war and at the same time be a perpetrator, as when, it,
01:04:29:19 - 01:05:13:18
Speaker 2
violates, you know, rights within Iran when there are, you know, there, and which invites protest from Iranians. One should be able to think that way. So thinking in this nuanced way requires conversation, requires discussion. Right. Same thing. With regard to to Gaza. It doesn't mean that if you are against, the Israeli conduct in the war on Palestinians, that you support terrorism, you should be able to, be against, both terrorism and against, the conduct of the Israeli, state.
01:05:13:20 - 01:05:40:10
Speaker 2
But people need a way of thinking. They need a vocabulary to be able to understand, all of this, to arrive at that, you know, arrive at that, logic. What? I mean is this if you say that you are against, Israeli, war on Gaza. Yeah, you are then said to be supporting Hamas and therefore you are supporting terrorism.
01:05:40:12 - 01:06:06:10
Speaker 2
You know, it is it is as if there are only two ways to think, yeah, be against Israel and therefore be pro Hamas, pro terrorist or be against terrorism and therefore justify Israeli actions. But it's more complicated than that. You know, for example, I would say that Hamas is not a terrorist organization. It doesn't mean that I support what Hamas did.
01:06:06:12 - 01:06:36:22
Speaker 2
Because. A liberation movement, an anti-colonial movement can engage in criminal acts. So we're not supporting that to the extent that Hamas, killed Israeli, civilians. That was wrong. Yeah. But they, you know, they are a, a resistance organization. I don't believe that technically it's correct to call them terrorists.
01:06:36:24 - 01:06:59:09
Speaker 2
You know, organized for the African National Congress, to me, was not a terrorist organization. It doesn't mean that we don't criticize them for some of the things that they did when they were struggling against apartheid. Yeah. The same thing goes for for Hamas. Yeah. You know, people can only come to these, you know, different ways of thinking and more nuanced ways of thinking if there is discussion.
01:06:59:11 - 01:07:11:13
Speaker 1
So but in whole in the countries that you mentioned, where there tends to be more discussions, how do those discussions happen organically self-organize, institutionalize?
01:07:11:15 - 01:07:43:05
Speaker 2
They happen at all levels. Yeah. Depending on the, you know, on the country. Yeah. I think in Malaysia, for example, this is happening, organically. It's also happening, at a more organized level. Palestinian, groups, NGOs. It's ITU research institutes, which are based in Malaysia, organize these things. Malaysian NGO, organize these things, groups that are affiliated to the government also organize such, sessions.
01:07:43:07 - 01:07:50:05
Speaker 2
So there's a lot of that going on. And you have, you know, I think a full spectrum of, ideas that are presented. And,
01:07:50:07 - 01:08:13:11
Speaker 1
And, I mean, so do you think the policy in Singapore, where. Okay, for fear of things going out of control, let's not have these discussions, does more harm than good, because I also heard in some interviews you feel there's, more of a role for social just in a country like Malaysia where people seem to have a more vested stake in the country improving, as opposed to Singapore, where things work, you know, people feel like, okay, it works.
01:08:13:11 - 01:08:27:23
Speaker 1
Do I need to put any effort? It will carry on working. So yeah. Good. Going back to that question, that that approach where, okay, let's not have these difficult conversations because there could be violence, does more harm than good.
01:08:28:00 - 01:08:56:17
Speaker 2
I think Singaporeans, sufficiently matured, that it's not going to lead to violence. I'm sure it's not going to lead to violence. And Singaporeans are going to have these conversations anyway. But I think it's good for some for these conversations sometimes to be in the open so that people have the benefit of exposure to these conversations.
01:08:56:19 - 01:09:35:19
Speaker 2
And that those who, have constructive ideas have the opportunity to present, these ideas. I don't think that, such conversations, if they're in the open, going to lead to, people engaging in a dis harmonious, manner. You know, for example, we do not want Muslims, for example, to speak in the open, and, express Judeo phobic ideas, or for others to express Islamophobic, ideas.
01:09:35:21 - 01:10:01:08
Speaker 2
But we need to speak openly about, about problems. About, Israeli, exploitation of Palestinians. And our criticism should not be restricted to, to Israel. The if we're talking about the region, about the, the Gulf, the Arab world or the Middle East, there's a lot to be, criticized.
01:10:01:10 - 01:10:20:20
Speaker 2
There, you know, the the conduct of Arab states, in the same thing goes for, for Iran. So I think if we, evenhanded, and fair, you know, our criticisms in our critique, this, makes for good education for the, for the Singapore public.
01:10:20:22 - 01:10:44:14
Speaker 3
So, I mean, that we're talking about the people, but also for the governments in the Southeast Asia region. Do you think the past month the conflict has changed perceptions about us versus China as, you know, as a presence in the in the region, the, you know, who they should be more aligned with or thinking about security for themselves in the region.
01:10:44:14 - 01:10:49:17
Speaker 3
Like what? How do you think anything has changed and perceptions of these two superpowers?
01:10:49:19 - 01:11:18:12
Speaker 2
I think over the years, states have come around to the view that they may not express it in public, but they've come around to the view that the US is not a superpower that can be trusted. And that, we have to have, close relations with other, emerging powers. And certainly, you know, China is is a power.
01:11:18:14 - 01:11:56:07
Speaker 2
And I think it's well recognized that China does not have imperialist, designs. It is a power which, expresses itself more through trade and investment rather than, military expansion. I mean, China is not being been involved in military expansion for centuries. Yeah. Right. And this idea of multi polarity, that it is desirable to move towards a world that is multi multipolar.
01:11:56:09 - 01:12:38:06
Speaker 2
BRICs is an expression, of, that idea, and Iran, I think, this also relates to the role of Iran as an anti-imperialist, power, the, the war against Iran. And Iran's response is, a, an, a contribution to, the development of multi polarity. For example, one of the views is that, in a multipolar world, there should not be the domination of any one currency, such as the US dollar.
01:12:38:09 - 01:13:03:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, Iran has contributed in a, in some ways to that idea when when the Iranians suggested that, ships passing through the Strait of Hormuz should, transact, in, Chinese yuan. Yeah, that's a very interesting idea. Yeah, it's not likely that that's going to happen, but it is contributing to planting those those ideas.
01:13:03:08 - 01:13:24:15
Speaker 2
And I think these, you know, these are things that are going to happen eventually. And that is also partly a reason why the US is so invested in the region in the Gulf. Because it is the source of petrodollars. Yeah. No, it's not that the US is dependent on Gulf oil, in terms of its consumption.
01:13:24:15 - 01:13:50:02
Speaker 2
It's not, I think the rest of the world, something like 20% of oil and gas, I believe, flows through the Strait of Hormuz. Yeah. So the many parts of the world, especially Asia, dependent on that, but not the US. It's more for the petrodollars I see. So de dollarization is part of decolonization.
01:13:50:04 - 01:14:03:10
Speaker 2
Because it would, you know, it would, affect the dominance of the US as, as a world economic power. And it would contribute to, to, what is called multi polarity here.
01:14:03:15 - 01:14:25:08
Speaker 1
So, I mean, you know, one thing that we because I know you, you were born in Malaysia, but you spent a lot of time in Singapore, right? So I'm sure you understand the Singapore psyche where for years we grew up with this, this narrative that we are a small state, you know, so when you talk about decolonization, depolarization, in the multipolar world, it still means that there would be superpowers here and there, right?
01:14:25:08 - 01:14:45:14
Speaker 1
So can a country like Singapore actually afford to be decolonize? Can we afford to? Because when you when you talk about decolonization, it's almost like, okay, let's, you know, see ourselves for who we are, our own ways of thinking, maybe lost traditions. But is that even possible for a country like Singapore?
01:14:45:16 - 01:14:49:08
Speaker 2
You you you asked if Singapore can afford to be decolonized.
01:14:49:10 - 01:14:50:22
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:14:50:24 - 01:15:20:11
Speaker 2
I think Singapore and other countries in the region, and indeed around the world are already undergoing decolonization. The world is undergoing decolonization. We can't afford to be left out. Singapore cannot afford to be left out. It's the fact is, America as a dominant power is on decline. No country remains a hegemon forever.
01:15:20:13 - 01:15:49:23
Speaker 2
You know, in the modern world, the first humans were, Portugal and Spain. Then you had, you know, the, the British, and then the Americans, the British are no longer a dominant, you know, the, the, the, the central world hegemon. And they're no longer that the Americans, and the Americans will eventually, decline.
01:15:50:00 - 01:16:19:17
Speaker 2
The question is, will they be taken over by another hegemon or will it be a more multipolar world? I think it's better for us to live in a multipolar world than to be dominated by it. You know, the Russians or the or the Chinese. And, whatever, whatever happens, there is a role for, all states, including small states like Singapore, especially small states like Singapore, that what's the expression, punch above.
01:16:19:17 - 01:16:20:18
Speaker 1
Their.
01:16:20:20 - 01:16:46:06
Speaker 2
Own weight? Yeah. That's right. I mean, Singapore, has much to contribute. In terms of his experience in terms of governance, in terms of, anti-corruption. Education and so many areas. And I think it will be to the extent that we move towards multi polarity, Singapore has the great potential to contribute to that multi polarity.
01:16:46:08 - 01:17:05:16
Speaker 1
So, so across, you know, all your teachings, all your research because I know in your book applying ibn Khalid Khaldun, Ibn Khaldun that there was one thing you mentioned in another podcast about how, one of his principles or theories is that governments will always be unjust and there is a role for civic society. Right.
01:17:05:22 - 01:17:21:16
Speaker 1
Are there any other things that you've found in your research that you think is important for not just Singapore, but for, people to understand that maybe hasn't gotten that much attention in the past about civic society, the role of governments, geopolitics.
01:17:21:18 - 01:17:51:00
Speaker 2
Ibn Khaldun said that, governments, as a rule, unjust, and I think he was right. If you look at the history of states, of dynasties, anywhere in the world, not just in the Muslim world, for most of history, people have been ruled by tyrannical governments, whether in the pre-modern world or in the, in the modern world.
01:17:51:02 - 01:18:03:02
Speaker 2
I think the reason why states, or nations or regions or civilizations prospered.
01:18:03:04 - 01:18:39:02
Speaker 2
Was in spite of their governments, for example, the so-called, Golden Age of Islam, the ten, 11 centuries, where you had amazing advances in, in science, in philosophy, in literature, in scientific areas such as, mathematics, algebra and geometry, chemistry, physics, optics. Yeah. This happened while at the same time Muslims were ruled by tyrannical rulers.
01:18:39:04 - 01:19:19:01
Speaker 2
How how could that take place? I think the lesson is that, it it could take place because the Muslims, the scientists, the philosophers, the thinkers, were not dependent on the governments. For example, institutions of learning the universities in the 10th century in the Arab world, when whenever state institutions, they were, the equivalent of what we would call religious endowments based on religious endowments, welcome in, which is, a technical term in Islamic jurisprudence.
01:19:19:03 - 01:19:53:03
Speaker 2
It's a kind of, a commercial instrument. Now, the woke up is like an endowment which is established by an individual and cannot be disturbed by the state. You know, for example, when, a particular individual, he says that or she, in fact, many of these institutions were established by women, gives money or land and says that this land has to be used in perpetuity as a educational institution, a university.
01:19:53:05 - 01:20:21:01
Speaker 2
Jamia is the the as I said in Arabic, right? This land has to be used as a university. And it is then, you know, recorded, as such, it becomes enshrined in Islamic law. No government can change that. Right. The government cannot come along later and say that we want to acquire the land and, and turn it into something else.
01:20:21:03 - 01:20:43:08
Speaker 2
So many of the institutions, you know, universities, hospitals, some of the first hospitals with wards and all that were established in, in Baghdad, you know, many of the institutions were established on the basis of, work of of endowments. And they were independent. You could say they were the early forms of civil society.
01:20:43:08 - 01:21:10:23
Speaker 2
They were independent of the state. They had their own source of revenue and income. And they were not interfered with by the state. They couldn't because, you know, because of the status of Islamic law. I think that's the lesson for us now in the Muslim world, if you just take the example of universities, most universities, are state, state run, state owned and politicians, governments interfere with the running of the universities.
01:21:11:00 - 01:21:43:14
Speaker 2
They interfere in terms of, lack of, imposing restrictions. You have a lack of freedom of expression, you have insufficient funding and so on and so forth. The pre-modern Islamic model was that these institutions, based on waqf, on on endowments and cannot be interfered with by the state. The state has no say regarding the curriculum, regarding what is taught, taught regarding, the appointment of, of teachers, of lectures or professors.
01:21:43:16 - 01:21:59:00
Speaker 2
To me, that's an important lesson that, when I think about the Muslim world, the so dominated by governments. Yeah. And in most cases, corrupt governments and institutions don't function because they are too dependent on government.
01:21:59:02 - 01:22:03:17
Speaker 1
And so is Singapore. Are we too dependent on government?
01:22:03:19 - 01:22:32:08
Speaker 2
You know, one could argue we are, but, what is important is that the, the the the governments, are not corrupt. The government is not corrupt. So the institutions function. Right. But, you know, to the extent that the government remains the way it is. Yeah. Then the institutions remain, functional. Yeah. And effective. But that is something I think important to, to think of.
01:22:32:10 - 01:22:48:12
Speaker 1
I mean, it's, that's a fair point. Is it? Because. Yeah, I mean, Singapore, a lot of our policies, you know, the, the land, the act where the government can take the land, you clear land. It's all dependent on a functioning government land. Yeah, but if it falls into the wrong hands, who knows, 20, 50 years down the road.
01:22:48:14 - 01:23:02:15
Speaker 1
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Cool. Yeah. So. So if people wanted to find out more about your work because I know you've written so many books, I. Where would be a good place for people to to go search you out? Do you have a website? Are you active on social media?
01:23:02:17 - 01:23:13:06
Speaker 2
Well, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm shy to admit that I'm active on Facebook because I think it's, Facebook is sort of, I mean, young people don't use Facebook nowadays, right?
01:23:13:08 - 01:23:16:03
Speaker 1
So yeah. Yeah, yeah, I mean, we we still use it occasionally.
01:23:16:03 - 01:23:40:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's right. Yeah, I think young I know my kids, on Instagram rather than Facebook. I don't I've only recently come to an even know what Instagram means. So yeah, but I'm on Facebook and, I, I need actually to, you know, to establish a website for myself. I'm actually in the process of doing that.
01:23:40:10 - 01:23:57:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. But I guess the only way is Facebook and also, you know, and I if you, they can have an idea of what I write, you know, by, by googling me, yeah. But I it's a good point. I need to be more organized.
01:23:57:15 - 01:24:02:23
Speaker 1
And when you have a Wikipedia page. Yeah, that was helpful. Do you, do you have a Wikipedia page?
01:24:03:00 - 01:24:09:10
Speaker 2
I, I do, I think there's some mistakes there. My name is spelled wrongly.
01:24:09:12 - 01:24:12:17
Speaker 3
But yeah, I need to take charge of your own online process.
01:24:12:20 - 01:24:18:18
Speaker 1
Because I'm good. Yeah, I've written a lot of books. Like, if people want to find your books. I mean, are they being sold? Like, they Google it? They can. They can find it.
01:24:18:20 - 01:24:26:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. I mean, Google Scholar is a good source. It can, you know, it gives you a good list of, what you write.
01:24:26:18 - 01:24:29:02
Speaker 3
Okay. One more segment.
01:24:29:04 - 01:24:44:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. The the hardest question of all, which is your one shock thing. Which is. Yeah. So, I mean, it's just something that you have experience in recent times that you would like to share with the audience, ideally not related to what we spoke about. And. Yeah, we can go first. So terms you have your one show thing.
01:24:44:11 - 01:24:44:19
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:24:44:19 - 01:25:06:14
Speaker 3
I mean, kind of related to what we're talking about, but, the astrophysicist scientist Neil deGrasse Tyson, he did a video, called A Scientist View of War. Right? Right after the not not long after the the war broke out, where he really talked about how, you know, science has helped, you know, governments, conduct war.
01:25:06:20 - 01:25:35:19
Speaker 3
And he talks about the science on missiles, astrophysics and rockets. But at the same time, there are certain things that war also brings to science that like the, the, the calculating of what would happen in a nuclear holocaust or nuclear winter, also help scientists understand or definitively say that all dinosaurs were wiped out by, by, you know, meteorite a hit the Earth, because that's how they they kind of modeled out that that's what a nuclear winter would look like.
01:25:35:19 - 01:26:00:21
Speaker 3
And that's probably what dinosaurs went through, and that's why they date there. So there is a lot of knowledge that passed between science and between governments in times of war. But at the same time, rather than advancing as a human species, we seem to be using this knowledge on each other, as opposed to about thinking about what if there is a hostile, alien species that comes to attack Earth one day?
01:26:00:21 - 01:26:05:24
Speaker 3
Maybe that might be the only thing that will unite humans and stop us from attacking each other.
01:26:05:24 - 01:26:06:17
Speaker 1
Like in the movies.
01:26:06:23 - 01:26:26:11
Speaker 3
In the movies. So, I mean, it sounds crazy, but, it was just a very sobering perspective that. Yeah, I mean, all this crazy technology we're watching, you know, in the missiles and the drones that are using, were enabled by, you know, a scientist who just was trying to advance, some measure of astrophysics. And what this wrong thing?
01:26:26:13 - 01:26:51:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. Who? Mine, came about through the YouTube algorithm. I don't know, because of all the videos I've been searching about the Iran war and all, but, it was a video by CNet titled Why Singapore Built a 150 meter deep Oil cave. So I think I've seen pictures of these all caves, but the is actually situated in Jurong Island and is meant as, as a store of, oil, crude oil, just as a reserve.
01:26:51:07 - 01:27:15:10
Speaker 1
But what I found interesting was the engineering of it. I think they brought in engineers from around the world, and because it was through a lot of rock, they had to do things like, finding out the different rock layers and then putting cement to prevent groundwater from coming in, but not all the groundwater, because they do want some groundwater to seep in so that it's a fully encased, reservoir of oil.
01:27:15:12 - 01:27:20:01
Speaker 1
And just watching the video, you're like, oh, okay. That's, that's, pretty deep, 150m.
01:27:20:01 - 01:27:22:05
Speaker 3
So that's where we store our, our,
01:27:22:07 - 01:27:29:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So some of our reserves. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's what this what's publicly said for or that I'm sure that's not the only store.
01:27:29:01 - 01:27:34:12
Speaker 3
This video just came in recently, is it? Yeah. I guess that we have, we have an oil reserve somewhere.
01:27:34:12 - 01:27:40:09
Speaker 1
I don't know how short I was, but it was an interesting video to watch. Okay. So over to you, Prof. For it.
01:27:40:11 - 01:27:44:13
Speaker 2
Okay. So now I realize that mine is really not as sophisticated.
01:27:44:13 - 01:27:46:20
Speaker 1
As, the.
01:27:46:22 - 01:28:26:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, you know, with all this thing, things going on, you know, with the, with the war, on Gaza, on Israel. Yeah. I really get irritated when I come across views expressed, by people, including Singaporeans. With views which keep critiquing, dismissing, knocking, Iran, Palestine, Hamas, the Iranian leadership, condemning them but making no.
01:28:26:16 - 01:28:52:06
Speaker 2
And of course, these people are all subject to criticism. Yeah. They're not perfect. They, they they do wrong things. Yeah. But not making any critique of Israel. That really angers me. Right. And, you know, it always brings me around to this point that the world consists of assholes. Okay.
01:28:52:08 - 01:28:55:20
Speaker 1
Can I. Get anything you want?
01:28:55:23 - 01:29:18:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know, the. And many leaders in the world are assholes. Right. And I wonder, you know, how do we define an asshole to you? We all know we all can identify an asshole when we see one. Yeah, but how do you actually define it. Yeah. So I looked around and there is actually a book, a serious book of call assholes.
01:29:18:16 - 01:29:27:06
Speaker 2
All right, that's by a philosopher by the name of Aaron James. Yeah. So he helps you to understand.
01:29:27:07 - 01:29:27:20
Speaker 1
You read the book?
01:29:28:00 - 01:29:47:11
Speaker 2
I haven't read it yet. I just I just got it recently. Okay. And I'm meaning to read it, but, you know, it's really something that we need to know. Yeah. Because, you know, and it's an exercise in concept formation, you know, you know, a phenomenon. You can identify it, but you can't quite, you can't quite define it.
01:29:47:13 - 01:29:50:10
Speaker 2
So this book helps you to, to do that.
01:29:50:12 - 01:30:06:11
Speaker 1
So, I mean, I think it's really another video that we watch previously called Dick's, I think is like, where do you need to be a dick to be successful? So it's a video essay, but it I like it because like what you say, it helps you think about what a someone who behaves an asshole like we actually look like because, you know, teacher training school.
01:30:06:11 - 01:30:08:24
Speaker 1
Yeah. The video shoot let me. Sure.
01:30:09:03 - 01:30:13:14
Speaker 3
It's a very serious topic, a study. It was not trivial at all. Yeah. This is very.
01:30:13:14 - 01:30:34:08
Speaker 1
Important. Is it academic approach to something that might seem trivial but not is a great one. Sure thing. Yeah. So thanks so much for sharing. Fuck you. And I mean, hope your family is is okay. I hope this war ends soon. And really appreciate all the perspectives you have shared because, yeah, yeah, we all of us and our listeners, we just trying to make sense of what's happening.
01:30:34:13 - 01:30:39:19
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. And basically, decolonize our captive minds. Yeah. As important things.
01:30:39:19 - 01:30:44:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. So there it is. How do you like that conversation with Professor Farid I.
01:30:44:13 - 01:31:02:00
Speaker 3
Thought was fascinating? Like, there's so many perspectives about Iran, Iranian people, you know, the governments and the whole region on the Middle East that I thought I, you know, we've been consuming so much about it in the last month. Right? There's so many new things I learned. Don't listen to him.
01:31:02:00 - 01:31:19:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I mean, as much as, like when I, when I, when I first saw his profile as a sociologist, I mean, I did think, okay, he's going to bring that perspective to Iraq. But if you look at all the books he's written, I mean, he's really a big believer of decolonization and studying the great philosophers that are non-Western from the past.
01:31:19:10 - 01:31:26:16
Speaker 1
His wife is Iranian. He has family in Iran. Yeah. So listening to him, I'm like, oh shit, this is yeah, this is this is what I've been looking for. Mean.
01:31:26:16 - 01:31:27:10
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah.
01:31:27:12 - 01:31:31:17
Speaker 1
And I'm super appreciative that he came online was very, very honest. Do anything we asked him.
01:31:31:19 - 01:31:56:12
Speaker 3
Yeah. And yeah, I like that, you know, because he's situated here. I mean, he's Malaysian, but you know, he's lived in Singapore. He can really talk about the Southeast Asian perspective and all this like and know the governments, will be thinking about everything that's going on. Vis a vis the US versus China. And then he boils it down to the individual and how people like you have a very neo colonial mindset.
01:31:56:12 - 01:32:02:19
Speaker 3
And when it comes to examining everything, like Irish, when we were talking about neo colonialism.
01:32:02:21 - 01:32:03:01
Speaker 1
And.
01:32:03:01 - 01:32:05:04
Speaker 3
Just the fact that we went to the US university and.
01:32:05:08 - 01:32:06:16
Speaker 1
I watched friends and.
01:32:06:22 - 01:32:11:06
Speaker 3
Back and, and, you know, my one shooting thing was near the gas station.
01:32:11:06 - 01:32:28:07
Speaker 1
Where it gets like this. Oh, yeah. But I mean, like, I know, like, certain things. He said. I was like, well, I know people might take this out of context and say he's a terrorist apologist and all that, but I, I appreciated the fact that he said, we need to be fair of critiquing, favoring, critiquing every stakeholder.
01:32:28:08 - 01:32:49:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, not just Israel, not just us, but also the Gulf states. And just like Muslims and, across the border. Yeah. Which I thought was like is rare to hear that because people will always jump the gun. Yeah. Even in this case, they might take out certain excerpts. I know they they might be so exist, taken out and put out of context.
01:32:49:14 - 01:32:53:11
Speaker 1
But the fact that there's a whole long conversation, I think, I think it was very, very helpful.
01:32:53:15 - 01:33:19:22
Speaker 3
And he made a good point about the discovery of America. Yeah. Because you didn't think about it in Singapore, like the founding of modern Singapore. We talk about that and we lionize like Raffles, right? I mean, Raffles Institution, Raffles. There's Raffles that. But I think, yeah, in the past 1 or 2 decades, there's been a lot more reckoning, right, of what colonialism and its history, meant for Singapore and other countries in the region as well.
01:33:19:23 - 01:33:27:15
Speaker 3
Yeah. And I'm glad that, you know, there's a lot more, studying, or at least a lot more literature about all this going on.
01:33:27:15 - 01:33:40:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, I mean, it was only when we did a tell you first episode about the history of Singapore that I realized it actually, from the 1200s. 1300 Singapore has a damn rich history. Yeah, almost like a Game of Thrones level and history of changing leadership and all that.
01:33:41:01 - 01:33:50:08
Speaker 3
Or even the Singapore Stone. And you know, but, it just blew my mind out, you know, that there's this relic that predates our colonial past, right?
01:33:50:08 - 01:34:09:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I mean, his father like, one thing I didn't get a chance to ask. When you talk about, you know, the example of Stamford Raffles, right? His father literally wrote a book called Thomas Stamford Raffles Schemer or Reformer, where he challenged the notion that, Raffles was, actually someone who, you know, helped to discover Singapore because we were we were there.
01:34:09:16 - 01:34:29:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Right. We were never founded in 1819. We existed before that. Yeah, yeah. So it's just. Yeah. No, I'm want to throw in like decolonization of the minor. I think they use the term captive minority. Yeah, yeah. Captive mind. So what them interestingly. Yeah. And yeah I mean I, I think I do want to read at least one of his books, and yeah.
01:34:29:04 - 01:34:45:24
Speaker 1
Like for everyone listening, hopefully you found it useful. We're going to put all the links to the his, his, his whatever, his Facebook page, in the description. We will definitely be sharing shorter excerpts from this conversation, which you can also see on social media. So you can follow us on TikTok, Instagram, Reddit and Telegram.
01:34:45:24 - 01:34:52:06
Speaker 1
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01:34:52:06 - 01:35:01:04
Speaker 3
And if you want to work with us, please email us at contact at Ministry of Honeycomb or just check on Ministry of Honeycomb. That's our website with, contact Us page there as well.
01:35:01:06 - 01:35:04:11
Speaker 1
Sweet. Thanks for listening, everybody. And we'll talk to you all soon.