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USDN Podcast is a cinematic indie comics interview series hosted by the USDN_Chairman and the Council of Nerds spotlighting the creators, storytellers, and worldbuilders shaping the future of independent comics.
Each episode dives beyond headlines into the real journeys behind the books from Kickstarter launches and creative struggles to the philosophies driving today’s indie storytelling movement.
This isn’t about rumors or recycled news.
It’s about the people creating the worlds.
Through in-depth conversations, creator spotlights, and crowdfunding discussions, USDN explores:
• The rise of indie comics
• The business of crowdfunding
• The art of worldbuilding
• The realities of independent storytelling
USDN is where indie comics come to life for the fans, by the creators, and powered by the community.
You are listening to the USDN on the
DFPN.
Thanks for watching!
what is up everybody and welcome to the
united states department of nerds where we
are for the people by the people and
of the people across the forest and
forgotten villages of eastern europe
stories have been whispered for centuries
tales of ancient creatures that stop the
darkness spirits that prey upon the living
and mysteries that refuse to stay buried
those legends have survived generations
not as fairy tales
But as warnings,
tonight those myths step into the pages of
an indie comic unlike anything else on the
shelf.
Joining us is Sean and MJ,
the co-creators of Western,
a supernatural horror detective series
that draws from the rich and terrifying
world of Slavic folklore.
After launching their first Kickstarter to
an incredible response,
they're back with issue number two.
A spin in a universe where investigators
don't chase ordinary criminals.
They hunt monsters born from centuries of
legend.
Ladies and gentlemen,
the Council of Nerds is now in session.
Sean, MJ, welcome to the Council, friends.
Thank you for having us, sir.
Thank you for having us.
But let's dive right on into this.
And MJ, since you're invisible,
I will start with you.
Why don't you tell us a little bit
about yourself and kind of how you got
into comic books?
Well,
I got into comic books at a young
age,
reading Donald Duck comics that my parents
had.
And then I later jumped into Marvel and
DC.
Tell everybody about who you are and where
you're from, what do you do,
and just tell people who you are, MJ.
I'm Maciek, but most people call me MJ.
Twenty-three-year-old living in Germany
from Poland.
That's good, dude.
Sean,
I'll kick the same question over to you.
Just tell everybody a little bit about
yourself and kind of how you got into
comic books.
I will.
I do want to say, though,
I cannot hear MJ at all.
Absolute silence for some reason.
I can hear him just fine.
I'm not sure.
I could hear him before I had those
audio issues earlier.
He's coming through good.
Nothing.
Well, this is going to be interesting.
So I am a lifelong nerd.
The first Tim Burton Batman movie came out
when I was ten,
and that's been it ever since then.
Super huge comic nerd.
Yeah.
Also a huge movie nerd my whole life.
And I ended up working in the film
industry starting in twenty fifteen.
And shortly thereafter,
those two loves came together.
I got to work on the Stargirl TV
show.
I've also worked on the show for Preacher.
Did a little bit of Black Lightning.
I'm sure there's other cool stuff I'm
forgetting,
but the big one is the Stargirl for
me because it gave me...
What's that?
I would have went Preacher.
Well, I did less on Preacher,
but it was very exciting.
But on Stargirl,
I got to work directly with Jeff Johns
and James Robinson.
Okay, yeah.
No.
And for season three,
they hired me on to...
I should say Jeff Johns specifically chose
me to be the keeper of lore for
the show.
So I wrote the three hundred page series
Bible for the writers room.
Okay.
And that whole experience was very much
like writers boot camp with your drill
instructors being Jeff Johns and James
Robinson.
Yeah.
And it was great.
It really kicked up my love of writing
and gave me the confidence to take a
shot.
So when MJ was like, hey,
do you want to co-write a comic with
me?
I was like, boy, howdy.
And I had to explain to him what
boy howdy means because he doesn't get our
idioms.
And he's young, man.
He's young.
He's still a baby.
It's true.
I'm the old timer of the project.
But we'll kick this next one over to
MJ since he invited you onto the project.
MJ,
kind of how did the two of you
meet?
We met on the Discord server at DC
Multiverse Wiki.
Okay.
No, keep going.
he was on another server and the people
from the Multiverse Wiki begged him to
join.
He joined and I asked him about a
series bible,
like advice to how to write the series
bible as he wrote the series bible for
Stargirl.
And yeah, we kept talking and I guess
And I can hear him now.
I messed with some settings.
It works.
Good.
That's really cool that, uh, and I,
I get those stories a lot that, oh,
we met on, um,
in a Facebook group or we met in
a discord server.
And I just think that's the coolest way,
you know, just two people, you know,
star crossed writers and, and artists,
so to speak, um,
getting to meet by chance and putting
together a fantastic project.
Um,
And this is kind of for both of
you.
When did y'all realize that Western was a
project that y'all were going to pursue?
And I'll start it with you, Sean.
So I...
you know,
I agreed to co-write something with him.
He didn't have anything in mind
specifically at the moment or didn't
mention it anyway.
And I kind of didn't expect anything to
come of it because, you know,
when you're in creative fields,
people are like, oh yeah,
we should do something together all the
time.
And then like, it just fizzles out.
But MJ to his credit got on Discord
and was like, hey,
so here's the thing I was thinking of.
Here's all of my ideas and just like
this wall of text.
and uh and then was like you said
you'd co-write it with me so smiley face
um and i i sort of went through
it and was like wow this is a
lot and then we got on a call
i think and and chatted it out and
worked out sort of the through line and
figured out
what was too much in there and cut
some stuff out and figured out how to,
and then it sort of grew organically over
time.
And we just found a really good story
that we can, it's actually sort of,
it's seven stories.
Our plan is seven story arcs and they're
all individual cases that you can read on
their own.
Oh, that's really cool.
But they also make up one cohesive story
when it's all done.
It's Files-ish.
Yeah, I mean,
those kinds of supernatural procedurals,
like X-Files and Supernatural,
are kind of in the DNA of this,
but mixed in with the weird Slavic stuff
from MJ's culture.
No, it's really cool, and
I've always enjoyed anything with
folklore,
whether it was European countries,
Asian countries, you name it.
I think those make very good stories.
And MJ, I'll ask you the same question.
What made you go to Sean,
of all people, Sean, and say, hey,
let's make a comic book together?
That's a very good question,
and I don't know.
It felt right.
It felt right to ask him.
Yeah, it was probably like, you know,
this guy's kind of a jerk.
I bet he'd be a good writer.
They always surprise you, right?
Like, I've met some jerks in my time,
and they ended up being some alright
people, so...
But this is for both of you.
And MJ, I'll start it with you.
How does this creative partnership work
today between you?
That's a very good question.
And well, we are co-writers.
But Sean is the main writer.
Do you want me to do my analogy?
Yeah, do the analogy.
Okay,
so basically MJ brings the ingredients and
I cook the dish.
Gotcha.
That works.
Hey, if it works, it works, right?
Yeah, because MJ, like I said,
that wall of text,
He just had an idea literally overnight
and was just like, all of this.
And sometimes it's too much.
Yeah.
It was kind of like,
there's all these clues about what's going
on.
And I was like, dude,
if your detective needs all those clues to
figure out what's going on,
he's not a great detective.
We got to trim that.
But yeah, it was like, he's...
really great at uh at bringing like the
the raw materials yeah and then um you
know it's not just me guiding it and
making a great story out of it there's
a lot of collaboration and back and forth
and coming up with different ideas and
arguing about them and having david tell
us which one of us was wrong our
story editor
Um, and then, you know,
I write the script, but, uh, yeah, it's,
it's, it's a fun process.
I feel like we compliment each other's
strengths very well.
No, I like it.
And I think everybody's creative process
is different, but also the same, you know,
when it comes to writing part partnerships
like this.
And it's always fun to get those, um,
kind of like the internal workings of a
partnership, right?
And I think that's where the biggest
variations in those types of partnerships
come from is how the internals between the
relationship between the two people work.
And those are always fun to learn about
and see how other people are doing this.
But let's divert the relationship between
the two of you and like your origin
stories into what is Western.
Am I saying that right, by the way?
Yeah.
Okay, perfect.
I didn't know if it was churched up
or if it was just Western.
We'll start this one with you, Steve.
For anyone discovering Western for the
first time tonight,
give us the elevator pitch.
Part Sherlock Holmes, part Supernatural.
Boom.
Private detective...
A normal private detective,
no superpowers, no mystical powers,
just a normal guy who investigates crimes,
comes across these cases that involve him
in Polish supernatural terror.
So does it take place in Poland or
is it taking place somewhere else?
It takes place in Germany,
much like MJ here.
Jan Westron is a Polish national residing
in Germany.
So our flashbacks to his youth,
which are a recurring story element that
we have,
we have two timelines that sort of
intermingle and complement one another.
Those take place in Poland in his youth.
and then the main modern story takes place
in germany okay and mj i'm going to
kick this next question to you so the
book mits is detective fiction horror with
some slavic mythology and and was this
just you wanting to kind of like bring
a piece of your your home country
to the forefront in a comic book,
but just mainly why those genres together
to make this great book?
I love detective stories.
I love detectives.
And I wanted to have a detective.
What I also love is horror.
And I felt like those two complement each
other.
And because Slavic mythology,
I think it's great,
and there's such cool things in it,
and outside of The Witcher,
there's nothing really which showcases it
at all.
It works.
Yeah, I mean, we've got The Witcher,
The Winchesters kind of do that,
but
I think he means our specific subgenre of
monsters.
Ah, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
Okay.
Because, you know,
you can find werewolves and vampires
everywhere.
Wendigos or Wendigos,
however you pronounce it, you know,
pop up here and there even,
and that's a lesser known one.
But like this Polish stuff,
the monsters we're using,
I've never seen in any popular culture.
Maybe some, like, deep dive RPGs,
but that's about it.
Maybe.
And that's what really drew me to this
and why when y'all initially contacted me,
I was like, yes.
Like, no hesitation.
Yes, I want to talk about Slavic,
you know, creatures.
And I think, like, it's untapped.
So it's something new to talk about,
and I'm all about it.
Yeah.
So MJ,
I'm going to kick this to you since
you're specifically drawing upon your
culture and your background.
So for viewers unfamiliar with these
myths,
what makes them so rich for storytelling?
You still with us, MJ?
Yeah, I'm here.
That's a great question.
I need to process.
Sorry.
You're good.
He speaks four languages.
It takes some time.
I completely get it.
That's why I'm just like, let him cook.
I can edit out the pauses later.
I will say, while he percolates,
it is an untapped well.
That's like...
a good thing about it um so you
know while we do have a lot of
uh while we do like look into the
mythology we're also not like slavishly
devoted to it but we can deviate as
we need and people aren't going to get
all mad about it for the most part
um and we don't have to
go way outside, you know,
way afield to come up with something new
with these things because everything is
new with them.
You know,
it's like nowadays with vampires,
you have to really struggle to make
something new with vampires.
Like, they sparkle now!
Woo!
Yeah.
I agree with you a hundred percent there.
You still with us, MJ?
Yes, I am here.
What I think it's
well great on the untapped potential and
most people as sean said don't know about
don't know about them and some of them
look their look is uh that design of
the creatures are weird like basiliszek
it's uh it's a
like a lizard with a chicken head and
wings.
I like it.
Yeah,
that's a lot weirder than like man but
wolf.
Yeah, the chupacabra, you know?
And I like it.
It's so different than what we're
traditionally used to that it works so
well because it is just this untapped
potential in these stories that y'all are
putting together.
Um,
But let's build this world together real
quick.
So one thing that immediately stands out
is how different these monsters feel
compared to vampires and werewolves that
we have been talking about.
And I was going to ask how much
research went into this authentic
folklore,
but MJ has literally lived and breathed
this folklore his entire life, basically.
This is his folklore from his home country
of Poland.
I do what I can to keep up.
There, there you go.
I like it.
I like it.
You committed to the,
to the gig and that's like top notch
stuff right there.
Um,
We're not restricted just to Polish
mythology.
That's the main well we're digging into.
But I've long loved like Welsh and Celtic
myths.
And so we'll bring some of that stuff
in later on too.
It's on the roadmap.
But all stuff that's like very like,
what the hell is that?
I've never heard of that kind of stuff.
Go ahead, MJ.
Okay.
I want to say that we have also
something from the Filipino folklore.
Yeah,
they have some really good stuff too.
Yes.
I can't think of the name of it
now, but it's the one that eats the,
not the babies, but the placenta.
They drink the antibiotic fluid from the
placentas of unborn babies.
But yeah, it was an episode of Grimm,
okay?
That's how I know about it.
Ah.
I really was hyped about that show when
it came out,
and then I watched a couple episodes.
It just didn't grab me.
It was good until the last season.
I don't know what happened.
The last season is where it dropped off
for me.
And it's been rumored that it's coming
back either in a movie or a follow-up
TV series.
But I thoroughly enjoyed it.
However, like I said,
that last season was just like...
I don't know what they're trying to do.
It started off right until it wasn't.
Which didn't take long.
It derailed.
But... So...
do y'all ever find yourselves like,
and we, I know you mentioned this briefly,
like balancing the historical accuracy
with telling a compelling comic story too.
Cause I mean,
you want to make the monsters and the
folklore as close as possible to the
actual folklore,
but you also have a comic book story
to tell.
And there's certain elements of a comic
book story.
You kind of got to check off on
that.
And that one can be between the both
of you.
Well, um,
MJ's core concept really helped with that.
Because when you do see these sorts of
things in things like The Witcher,
it's in a sort of medieval slash fantasy
setting.
Ours is in the here and now.
It's in the world in the twenty-first
century.
And so it's taking those things out of
their familiar setting from which is the
only setting they're ever written about.
Because...
You know,
people weren't still in the nineteen
fifties going like, oh, the Baba Yaga,
you know,
is let's make up some new stories about
her.
It's all from like medieval periods.
And so when you transplant them into the
here and now,
it is basically freeing you from a lot
of the baggage that they carry with them
and saying like, OK, now,
how does a person in our time deal
with that?
What do you think, MJ?
Yeah,
also if in the mythology there was only
one creature of that type,
I personally look at it as a species
and that was the only one that was
recorded in a way by the people who
were writing those stories back in the day
in universe.
Yeah,
they are sort of like there's this one
thing.
Yeah.
And we're sort of making it like, well,
that's a species.
Yes.
Okay.
No, I like that a lot.
Sort of like,
is Bigfoot like just one Bigfoot?
Or are there Bigfoot around?
Yeah.
Big feet.
No, I like that concept a lot more.
than it just being one.
Otherwise, if there was only one,
why would it be seen for generations,
right?
Everything has an expiration date on it.
So, no,
I definitely like that there are these
creatures,
but there's multiple of those creatures.
Otherwise,
how else are they going to last through
the generations?
And then it sort of makes them...
A little bit less mystical also.
So it's not like this is the only
one of this thing and so where does
it come from?
You have to start thinking about that kind
of stuff when you're telling a story,
especially if it's centered around a
mystery.
But if it's a species,
then you don't have to worry about how
did this come to be?
You just have to accept that it is
and figure out how to kill it.
Yeah, no, spot on.
And MJ,
when you thought of this world of Western,
how big did you envision this being?
Oh, very big, and that would
the world itself very big and that Western
would be on a very small percentage of
it what could be achieved in it and
yeah it was originally part of like a
big shared universe idea that was
percolating with MJ and someone else
before I came along and we sort of
like how you know
john constantine for the most part you
know he's in the dc universe superman's
there all the big stuff is happening dark
side exists but when you tell your your
constantine story you're just keeping him
in his little pocket you know and not
acknowledging you know you don't have
constantine walking down the road lighting
a cigarette and you see someone flying in
the background but uh
in the end we decided to just take
it out of the shared universe concept yeah
um i think that was largely me because
i am really really tired of people trying
to create shared universes right out of
the gate and i i get very very
exhausted thinking about it yeah no and
you know in
And I'm sitting here and I hear this
concept of it potentially being this
bigger universe where there was an
Eastron, a Northon, a Southon, you know,
and they're spread throughout the world,
you know.
of them and just in the,
it's the same detective private
investigation team.
It's just,
they're just spread out throughout the
world and you get different writers, Asia,
North America, South America,
and you know,
it could have been a great funds.
Exactly.
And it's kind of a cool concept to
sit here and think about after the fact,
but we'll settle on Western right now.
Right.
Yeah,
it's just a Polish guy with a Welsh
last name.
That's good.
But let's create the horror behind the
book.
And you're both, you know,
you're writing this joint story together.
We all have our different fears.
And MJ,
I'll start with you is kind of like
what kind of scares you as a storyteller
to lead you to these types of stories?
I'm not easily scared and I don't really
know the answer to that.
I think it's more of a matter of
like what horrible things excite you.
There you go.
It's a little,
it's a little scary to think about
actually.
Cause I, I also like,
I don't get scared of much except for
like the ever looming specter of late
stage capitalism.
But, um, you know, it's, uh,
I guess we're all kind of serial killers
at heart, like deep down,
because I'm not watching a horror movie
and getting scared by the movie.
I'm watching a horror movie going.
We're all one bad day away from it.
That's probably the exact sound he makes.
We're all just one bad day away from
snapping, right?
Like falling down.
Maybe.
Maybe.
MJ from the ethereal abyss, maybe.
Or maybe I'm already there and you just
don't know it yet.
But what kind of films or novels or
comics or even video games kind of
influence Western?
And I'll start that with you, MJ,
and then I'll let Sean answer it.
That's a very good question.
The influence is definitely...
There's some influence from Constantine.
There's definitely influence from Teresa.
There's definitely some influence from...
But not... Sorry, that was too loud.
And I lost my thought.
No,
just like where some of the whether it's
films or novels or comic characters or
games that influence Western.
Outside of those two, the bigger like.
So I'll say that from my end.
A lot of the detective elements.
I was inspired by the Shadow novels.
Okay.
Which I'm a big fan of and the
radio show.
I mean,
the radio show is a little more,
you know, can't be kid fun.
Yeah.
But the novels are like really straight up
good mysteries from the thirties.
So I dig that and our opening scene
in the first issue is just a straight
up lift from your Supernatural procedural
shows like Supernatural and X-Files.
It's two girls walking through the woods.
And I hope when you read it,
you just are like, oh,
so they're going to die real soon, right?
Because that's, you know, when, you know,
roll film on Supernatural.
Here's some people you've never seen
before.
You know,
at least half of them are going to
die in the next couple of minutes.
We've got the same thing going on.
And that's our inciting event for the
entire first story arc.
And so, you know,
I feel like why not steal that kind
of cold open prologue situation from
television and adapt it into comics?
If it works, it works, right?
Absolutely.
So let's dive into some of the characters
in Western and without any spoilers,
really.
Who are the central investigators?
Who are your main characters in this
story?
Well,
obviously our title character is Jan
Westren.
He is, that's the guy right there.
Jan Westren is a professional private
investigator.
He has attended a prestigious academy for
seven years that is just for learning how
to be an investigator.
And in the fullness of our first story
arc,
you'll find out how that came to be.
But we catch up with him after he's
already established his own firm and
everything.
And...
He has an ally in the police,
Dominic Waschenbach.
I don't even know if I pronounced that
properly.
MJ, correct him if you need to.
Waschenbach.
I was pretty close.
You're really damn close.
You're really damn close.
You start putting dots over shit,
and I don't know what to do.
You and me both.
But yeah,
he's an investigator who has sort of...
risen in the ranks a little bit through
being helped out on some of his cases
by Jan in the past.
And so he catches this case in our
first issue and he calls in Jan for
help pretty much right away because
there's a time factor.
And then most of our other characters are
really either missing or dead.
Easy to write them off, right?
At least at this point.
Yeah.
We have some childhood friends who recur
as adults in the second issue.
But really,
the focus is primarily on Jan trying to
find the missing fourteen-year-old girl
after her sister is found murdered.
In the woods.
Had to be in the woods, right?
Had to.
You gotta start this stuff in the woods.
Yeah, dude.
I like it.
This is my type of stuff.
So what kind of emotional struggles does
he deal with underneath the supernatural
mysteries?
Because the dude's a private eye.
We all know private eyes have their...
their quirks, their imbalances.
To the private eye, for some reason,
they are always written as the down on
their luck, ex-police officer,
ex-detective that was kind of kicked off
the force or something like that.
Is that the case with Western?
He's just like a super well-adjusted,
happy guy.
He likes to pick flowers.
No.
I was like, damn, I'm like, hey,
where's the character depth?
So our flashbacks go back to a time
when he was fifteen years old and one
of his two best friends goes missing and
ends up brutally murdered with his other
best friend accused of that murder.
and jan is the only person who can
definitively say that he didn't do it
because he was literally like they were
having a sleepover that night but the
police will not hear it they're like you
know your your friend's fingerprints are
everywhere or whatever like we got this
you know how cops are assholes yeah yeah
and so he has to set off to
find the real killer
But he is haunted by the death of
his friend.
And she was fourteen when she was killed.
And now here he is in the present
looking for a missing fourteen-year-old
girl and hoping he can find her before
she ends up the same way.
And there's a part of him where every
case he takes on is in some way
even if they're not as closely correlated,
but every case is in some way,
another attempt to save the life of his
friend, Carolina.
That's deep, dude.
That's some character though.
That's, that's, yeah,
that's the stuff that makes you like fall
in love with the character and just like,
That means you want to cheer for that
character going forward when they have
that kind of trauma in their lives and
you see them reliving that basically
almost every day of their life as they
go forward.
That's just what's going on when he's not
busy skipping rope and picking flowers.
Of course.
I mean, you got to have hobbies, right?
It can't just be nicotine and coffee all
the time, can it?
But...
So which one of these characters kind of
became your favorite while you were
writing?
Was it the other police detective or is
it your private eye guy?
We all have our favorites, right?
Which one of your characters kind of
became your favorite while you were
writing this story?
Man,
this is going to be such a cop
out,
but my favorite character
No, Jan does not smoke pasta.
My favorite character, because he's smart.
My favorite character is actually one that
we haven't met yet.
Okay.
Who doesn't turn up until chapter five,
our fifth story arc.
But that character sort of like moved into
my head.
Kind of fully formed.
You know, Jan,
it took some work to get to know
him.
But this other character, bam,
right in there.
I know exactly who they are.
I know exactly what they're going to do
in any situation.
And I really,
really want to get us to the point
where that character can come into our
lives.
How about you, MJ?
You got a favorite one yet?
Yeah,
and that would be the same as Sean's.
You're going to make me wait three more
issues?
Oh, no, no, no.
That's our fifth story arc.
Three more issues.
Yeah.
I will say that character is...
kind of brings a little more fun and
levity while, you know,
not making it silly or anything, but yeah.
Yeah.
So it's,
you gotta have something to off that,
that almost all the time,
serious yawn restaurant, you know,
character, you know, there's gotta have,
there's gotta be something there, right.
Eventually that kind of like interrupts
that type of lifestyle that he's living
in.
Right.
Yeah.
And you know,
I also,
so his friend that was accused of murder
as a teenager,
they're still best friends and now
business partners in the modern day.
Okay.
I mean,
not to be too much of a spoiler,
but, you know,
he solves the case when he's a teenager.
But, yeah.
the interplay between him and Jan,
because they share the trauma of losing
their mutual friend, Carolina.
Their interplay is great because they
share that trauma,
but also live it in different ways.
They internalize it in different ways.
And Phillips is more rational,
I would say, because he was like,
Like, she went missing, dude.
You had no chance to find her.
You were fifteen.
It's not like the police were like, hey,
can you help us find your missing friend?
When you're fifteen,
you trust the cops to find the missing
girl.
And given the fact that you were accused
of, you know, killing her.
Yeah, so...
You know,
Philip has the more rational take,
but Jan still blames himself completely
irrationally.
But it's what drives him.
And so you kind of got to let
him have it.
Let's talk a little bit about issue two.
Issue one funded incredibly quickly.
I think y'all said six hours or something
like that.
Six hours.
And issue two is already funded.
It's still live on Kickstarter.
What lessons did y'all kind of take?
Sorry.
That'll wake you up right there.
I made a challenge coin for our first
day backers,
and I'm just sort of like playing with
it, fidgeting.
And I dropped it, so that's on me.
That's beers on you if you're in the
military, buddy.
But what lessons did you take away from
that first Kickstarter that kind of,
you know,
when you got to this next Kickstarter that
you were like, okay,
we know exactly what to do and where
we need to go with this.
And that's a question for both of you.
God,
I would never say I know exactly what
to do.
It's just like...
I know one thing what not to do,
not to wait another year for a next
issue.
There you go.
You got to strike while the iron's hot.
Most of our learning actually happened
between campaigns.
We did a good job on the first
campaign.
And we sort of wanted to build up
a follower count and a little bit more
of a...
like uh social media following yeah and
stuff and so we focused on like trying
to hit numbers between campaigns before we
launched the new campaign and we wanted to
like get an animated trailer for the comic
done so that we could build those numbers
so it took until we had the issue
done and then the trailer done and then
starting to try to build numbers and then
it got to the point where we're just
like oh my god it's been a year
we have to launch immediately
And now we know not to do that.
Definitely not.
Because you can do all the work in
the world.
You can build all the social media numbers
you want.
But if you're not creating new content,
new material,
people are going to lose interest.
So instead of focusing on building up
these imaginary numbers of followers to
the campaign and to our social media,
we just are going to keep posting updates.
Because clearly...
I sort of intimated,
but issue two is done.
We're not trying to fund the creation of
this issue.
It's done.
All we need to do is print it
once the campaign's over.
What we're trying to fund is the art
for issue three so that we can move
forward like that.
And so... Mustafa,
what comic book from Keanu Reeves didn't
do great?
Because Berserker sells out every week or
every time it hits the shelf.
So I'm not quite sure which comic book
you're talking about there.
Sorry.
Did they make a Johnny Mnemonic comic?
Because I can see that that wouldn't do
well.
I don't know.
You know,
I almost didn't want to watch The Matrix
because I thought it reminded me of Johnny
Mnemonic.
Johnny Mnemonic, yeah.
And then I watched The Matrix and I
was like, oh, damn.
Oh, okay.
Alright.
You're good, man.
I was like, dude,
Berserker has literally sold out every
time it's hit the shelf, so...
And not to mention all the spinoffs and
everything else it's had, but, um...
No, definitely.
I've seen a lot of books like fell
issue two because it just people stop
caring.
They would have a fantastic push on issue
one.
Issue one do really well.
And then it'd be a year plus later
that they drop an issue two and people
are like, oh, you're still doing this.
This is still a thing.
So I'm happy that did not happen to
y'all.
And that y'all were able to maintain that
by keeping the social media going.
That's a big key right there is keeping
it fresh in people's heads.
Once you have the followers,
it's just constant updates and doing that
kind of stuff and really using the
Kickstarter to fund not the current book.
Yeah, it's going to fund the print,
but it's also funding the art for that
next book.
And I see a lot of people fail
because of that.
And I'm glad that's not an issue that
you're going to have.
When we started on issue one,
kind of anything that I take on,
I think about how I would react to
it and do it the way that I
would want it if I were on the
other side of it.
And I went into it having backed a
comic book that I still haven't gotten.
This was a comic that raised over eighty
thousand dollars.
Which one?
Very few raise that super killer.
I never I was that was before I
started doing Kickstarter.
Then what year was that?
I was like.
Twenty years ago, twenty twenty four,
I think.
OK, so, yeah,
I was getting into Kickstarter at the
time.
Vito something or another he got the
digital comic out but I haven't gotten my
physical one but it still took forever
like the dude raised eighty grand and it
was taking forever to get this comic out
if our first campaign had raised eighty
grand we'd be talking about our trade
paperback right now let me tell you what
Yeah, no kidding.
No kidding, dude.
That's insane.
Eighty thousand dollars and you still
can't get a physical copy.
Now,
I have back the book in December of
twenty twenty four and I got it December
of twenty twenty five,
but it had a lot of issues going
to print.
and they did a really good job of
keeping us updated on that book and like
he's like hey uh i apologize but hey
here's another digital book to kind of
hold you over for a little bit until
i can get the physical books in and
get them sent to you
yeah and look i know i know a
lot of people are making comics and
they're they're doing a kickstarter so
they can pay their artists and create the
comic and that's completely valid i just
went into this thinking i would want to
have my comic faster than that if possible
and so i
we put a lot of money and effort
into getting the first issue done before
we launched our campaign so that we could
do it in this way.
And it was that in between thing where
we were trying to juice up some stupid
numbers instead of just moving forward
with the project.
I mean, the comic was done for months.
Without us taking any action to get it
into the world.
And we know better now.
So they're going to come faster.
But really... So it was that.
And one of the things... There was a...
sort of a right wing anti-woke comic
imprint that started and, uh,
was one of the worst comics I've ever
read in my life.
Not because it was anti-woke or right
wing, just cause it was like really,
really terribly written.
And, uh,
that campaign raised three million
dollars.
What the hell?
And I criticized it for taking a year
to get a second issue out.
And, um,
I hate that our second issue took a
year to come out.
Yeah.
Because I was absolutely insane.
Yeah.
Genuinely like I someone in the chat
actually here was one of the people that
told me I should check it out.
And I didn't realize that it was like
a first time comic book writer.
It was like a guy who's like a
right wing commentator.
who decided,
I don't like the way comics are,
so I'm going to write one.
And...
I read it and I was like,
this guy is a writer?
I thought he was a comic writer that
had split off on his own,
like the Image guys back in the night.
But no.
And I read it and then I looked
the dude up.
I had no idea who he was.
I looked him up to see what comics
he had written before because it didn't
seem like he knew how to write comics.
And I was like, oh,
he hasn't written a comic before.
He was just like, first draft, done.
Let's make this.
And he used his existing fan base to
raise three million dollars.
Three millions is absolutely nuts.
I'm surprised he didn't take it in bounds.
No, he made it.
He built a little universe.
It's sort of where all the canceled
creators go to die.
Like Chuck Dixon is writing a comic over
there now.
You know,
you can just say the name and just
be done.
Yeah,
but I don't want to send people over
there.
I don't want to expose people to really,
really awful, terrible comic writing.
Yeah.
In fact,
I found that other comic that I still
haven't gotten, the Super Killer.
I found that guy because he had a
video criticizing that other comic.
They started a whole war.
I was like,
I'm going to read this guy's comic because
he knows what's up.
His comic was pretty good.
I just don't have the physical one yet.
I get it, man.
I've seen some wild things on Kickstarter.
I've had people on the show before
And people signed on to watch that show
because that person was going to be there.
Not because they were excited for that
person to be on,
but because apparently they had did a
Kickstarter years ago that never came to
fruition.
And people either wanted their money back
or...
you know some something you know oh damn
i had to be like look what happened
before this episode right here i have no
idea about i wasn't even into comic books
at the time i went podcasting at the
time i'm like hell at the time i'm
pretty sure i was living overseas
somewhere so i'm like don't come on my
show with that kind of
like that's not me there's nothing i can
do about it and nothing i'm going to
do about it because a i can't and
b we're here to talk about this and
that's all we're going to talk about i'm
not going to dip into his past because
that's not my problem fair y'all have
problems with him message him do not
message me do not complain to me nothing
i can do about it so you're literally
just
You're wasting your time and your efforts
and your energy.
Well, you know,
if I had failed to fulfill a Kickstarter
previously or something and was here
promoting another Kickstarter and people
came at me about it, I would say,
okay, that's fair.
I deserve that.
I would agree it's fair,
but not to come on this show and
complain about it.
Like, don't do that.
You know, go to the person.
Yeah.
If y'all want to spam his messages while
he's live, then by all means,
spam his messages, but don't spam my show.
Please.
Luckily,
I take satisfaction of our customers.
Is that the right word even?
Very seriously.
I've got a poster that I sell on
Etsy.
I've been selling it for
many years.
It's a replica of a poster that John
Lennon bought in an antique shop and wrote
a song based on.
It's the best replica of that poster in
the world.
Hands down.
I'm not too humble to say that.
But I'm very serious about if anyone has
an issue,
I take care of it and I'm the
same way with the Kickstarter.
I would not do something like this if
I couldn't like one hundred percent
satisfy everybody that's why that will
keep people coming back and keep people a
fan of the product is you take care
of the people if there's a problem with
a package if there's a problem with
shipping if there's like hey i didn't get
this can you see where it went wrong
and you're on top of that and you're
answering those questions right away
you're going to keep fans for life
But let's talk about issue two.
Issue two, I'm guessing,
raises the stakes a little bit more after
issue one.
Without spoiling anything,
why didn't returning readers expect from
issue two, which is still live,
currently on Kickstarter,
and that link is down in the description
below?
Well, really,
issue one sort of sets up everything.
It lets you know who Jan is and
what his...
individual cases are in the present and in
the past and both those timelines at the
end of issue one conclude with him setting
off to like tackle the case and so
in issue two we're getting into those
cases and so we're gonna actually get into
the meat and start solving some crimes or
some mysteries we'll say mystery crimes
I like it.
I like it a lot.
So this is going to be a much
larger story, and we're only on issue two.
How big do you and MJ have this
story being?
Are we talking multiple trade paper bets
here later on?
Well, the first story arc is four issues,
so we're halfway through it.
because we initially were going to try to
get it published and Dark Horse was like
our number one aim and Dark Horse's whole
thing is that they will give you a
shot for four issues and then they'll see
how that does and see if they want
to do more so we wrote this first
arc as four issues specifically for that
and then they rejected us so spot on
very dark horse like it was a same
day rejection because we had a little bit
of an in um an in to get
rejected much better than waiting ninety
days to get rejected let me tell you
that's a true story that is very true
um but um we do have seven story
arcs planned we don't know how many issues
each of them are going to be the
rest live just sort of as outlines yeah
because you don't want to get too in
the weeds
and not be able to pivot and adjust
as new developments occur.
So right now,
the first arc is completely written.
And then we'll probably do another pass on
issue three before we send it to the
artists,
and another pass or two on issue four,
just to make sure everything's really
tight.
Because I think a lot of newcomers sort
of fall into the trap of writing too
much, too big a story,
and then they're sort of trapped in it
and they can't,
they don't have the maneuverability.
So we're balancing that.
We have seven story arcs planned,
but we've left ourselves maneuverability.
How many pages does each issue have?
There are thirty-two page comics,
twenty-four story pages,
and then the back pages are, you know,
sort of,
I wish I had one with me that
I could pop up on the camera,
but the back pages are, you know,
they're not ads,
they're like in-world documents that sort
of give you a peek into
deeper aspects of the story.
Let you know a little more who the
characters are and what their histories
are.
I like that kind of stuff.
I like anything that's not ads.
I know some people who sell ads in
the back of their book or in the
front of their book or on the back
page of their book.
Which is cool.
We did do one ad because a friend
of mine is a cosplayer who has her
own clothing company that does nerdy
clothing lines.
I just wanted to
give her a little it's a personal tie
though yeah it's a personal tie you're not
did you sell it to her did you
sell her the ad space no uh they
they offered to pay and i was like
nah just give us a shout out on
your tiktok to your million followers
there you go there you go um let's
talk about in the indie comics
And indie comics are growing year by year.
I actually think there's a lot more indie
comics being sold out there than we
realize,
and quite possibly more than some of the
bigger guys are selling each year.
Why do you think readers are increasingly
looking beyond Marvel and DC?
And MJ,
you've been quiet for a little bit.
I'll kick that to you first.
i think because indie comics may be
unexpected you can get stories that
otherwise would not be published and way
more interesting and personal stuff
because
How much can you do more with Batman
or with Superman?
And also the big comics stick mostly to
superheroes.
And comic is an amazing medium that can
contain any genre, not just superheroes.
One hundred percent agree.
I'm, you know,
as a lifelong superhero fan,
I can tell you that I'm like really
exhausted with superheroes.
I barely read any superhero stuff anymore.
I'm still like going and seeing every
superhero movie immediately because I
remember being a young nerd and having to
wait three years between superhero movies.
So I am not going to squander this
golden age of superhero content.
Very true.
However,
I think the other thing with the big
companies is that like any large corporate
entity, they get risk averse, right?
And so they don't want to take big
swings on really interesting concepts.
So just like with independent films,
the cool indie stuff ends up or the,
you know, the cool original,
like really creative stuff ends up in the
indie world.
And I, you know, might,
spend too much on backing other people's
kickstarters.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think we've all had, uh,
some months like that where we were like,
I will say, um,
speaking of other indie comics just today
launched, uh,
I consider it like a sister campaign.
Our, our, uh,
Story editor, David Anderson,
launched his comic today on Kickstarter
called The Tales of Sir Chance.
And I'm his story editor on that.
And it's drawn by one of our illustrators.
Oh, nice.
So, you know, once you've backed Western,
go check out The Tales of Sir Chance.
It's great.
It is great.
It's a steampunk robot thing in a...
very unique setting.
I very, you know,
I'm pretty familiar with it as the editor
on it.
I was going to say, I hope so.
You're the editor, but yeah,
I really love it.
There also may be a Western Easter egg
within it.
Oh, I'm a big fan of Easter eggs.
So, but yeah,
So if someone today has an idea for
a comic,
what advice would y'all give them?
And I'll start with you, Sean,
and then we'll kick it over to MJ
for that one.
Well, if your idea for a superhero,
if your idea for a comic is superhero
based, just stop.
I mean, not really.
Obviously,
if you have an idea for something,
pursue it.
If it's something that you're passionate
about, but like,
if you're telling an original superhero
story,
if you're doing something new in that
genre, then I mean,
you're a miracle worker, honestly.
It's been so plumbed.
I can't imagine there's anything new to
tell in that genre.
However, my real advice is just do it.
Find someone who can
if you're a writer,
find someone who can draw it.
If you're an artist,
find someone who can write it,
team up with them.
If you can pay them,
that's the best because, you know,
nobody's got the time to dedicate to
drawing an entire issue on spec at the
hopes that one day it'll take off.
You can split it.
Fifty, fifty.
Um, um,
But yeah, I mean,
all the best stuff in my life has
happened because I followed my dreams and
my interests.
Like, I love making movie prop replicas.
And making movie prop replicas and posting
them on Twitter is how I literally got
hired in the film industry and completely
changed my life.
And then that got me onto Stargirl,
which got me into writing comics.
And, you know, it's...
All of it comes from being a nerd
and living that nerd life out loud.
As you should.
As you should.
You should never bottle it up.
And if you are bottling it up,
unbottle that shit.
Let your nerd hang out.
MJ,
I'll kick that same question over to you.
I don't think I can add anything more
to what Sean said.
Fair enough.
Ask random guys on Discord if they want
to be your co-writer.
Hey, word for MJ, right?
Well, you were not random, okay?
I don't know.
He looks kind of random to me.
Oh, I love it, dudes.
Let's talk about the Kickstarter, though.
why have y'all learned just from running
campaigns?
Um, I mean,
obviously every campaign is different,
but, uh,
what have been like some of those big
things that, um,
you have learned running now two campaigns
together.
Um,
I think that running a shorter campaign is
better than running a longer one.
The quick two week campaigns.
Well, our first campaign was thirty days.
We were working with a marketing company
who suggested we do forty five,
but I insisted on thirty because all the
all the marketing said thirty.
This time we did do forty five.
Because I was late getting interviews like
this one set up.
And so we had a couple scheduled for
after what our thirty days would be like
this one.
Our thirty days would have been the end
of June.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we're in our last two weeks now
and we're still going because.
We didn't want to come on your live
stream or on the one that we have
scheduled on the eighth and be like, yeah,
so the campaign's over.
But, you know,
maybe you can catch us in time for
for late pledges.
Yeah,
I was surprised that it was still going,
to be fair.
When I had checked it the other day,
I was like, oh,
maybe it's in late pledges,
and it wasn't in late pledges.
I was like, oh,
they did a long one.
Yeah, we did a forty-five day one,
and it's exhausting,
and we've actually been sort of bleeding a
I think some people are like, wait,
this this thing isn't over yet.
And then they pull their pledges.
Yeah.
So we've we've lost a couple of of
backers.
And I think it's due to the length.
So we're not going to make that mistake
again.
But, you know,
hopefully we can win them back.
Our campaign, I will say,
did this campaign did outrace our first
campaign in only three days.
Nice, nice.
Which tells you that people from issue one
did, in fact, come back.
Yeah, we had a decent,
about a third of our issue one backers
have come back thus far.
Hopefully,
a bunch more are waiting in the wings
for the end.
You know,
there's always that uptick at the end.
Yeah, the final forty-eight,
as I like to say.
Yeah,
hopefully there's people just waiting for
that.
And they're going to jump on it because
we want to just keep telling this story.
This comic is definitely not making us any
money.
I have a spreadsheet of what we've spent
on it and what we've earned from it.
And the comic owes us a lot of
money.
They always say you don't get into it
for the money.
If you get into it for the money,
you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
All I really want to do is be
able to put out the next issue without
coming out of pocket.
And if we can keep doing that...
you know, we'll,
we'll go until we have our entire story
told.
And then those are dubs right there.
Those are big dubs.
Anytime you can fund a book and it
funds the next book and you're not coming
out of pocket as much or at all,
those are W's and you always take those
small dubs like that.
Um, MJ,
are there any awards on this campaign that
have you excited that maybe
done before in the past or a cool
challenge going like sean likes to throw
around on the floor the challenge coins
are great what i do like is uh
very much is we will have a decoder
decoder bookmark
that you can decode some things in the
end of the book that would lead you
to a page on our website and give
you an exclusive Western story that's
prose.
That's really cool.
That's my favorite thing.
It's going to be a prose story.
You did say prose, didn't you?
Sorry.
Yeah.
Yes, I did.
It'll be a prose story that is outside
our main seven arc storyline.
But we'll help you learn some more about
the characters and, you know.
Beside backing financially,
how can readers and fans help the campaign
succeed?
I know the answer to this,
because I wish more people would do it,
but what's y'all's opinion on that,
or what are your thoughts on that,
I should say,
on how readers can best help a campaign?
Tell your friends.
Oh, you're into the show Supernatural,
or you're into Mysteries,
or you're into Evil Dead, or whatever?
Well...
I heard about this comic.
You should check it out.
That's it.
Share it.
It's my biggest one.
Just share the shit out of it.
Tell your friends.
Tell your enemies.
And then the best way to do it,
share it, share the social media.
It's nothing to hit that heart,
the reblog, and the add to story button.
It costs absolutely nothing,
barely a second out of your day.
And to me,
that is the best way you can share
your friend's content, period.
And...
I wish more people would do that sequence
because all those buttons are right next
to each other.
Heart, share, add to story.
It goes a long way.
It really does.
Both sides of this world,
not just the comic book world,
but the podcasting world,
the social media world.
If you enjoy what that person is doing,
the simplest things is to just share what
you enjoy and what those people are doing.
But let's look ahead.
You never know what a share is going
to do.
Exactly.
It's like, you know,
you'll see someone will sign their name on
a dollar bill and it'll turn up,
you know,
on the other side of the country.
You know,
you share a post about our comic,
then maybe it gets in the eyes of
somebody else who shares.
And maybe for some random reason,
some like mega celebrity follows that
person and they get it in their eyes.
And then they're like, oh, well,
this seems cool.
Repost.
Boom.
Now three million people are seeing it
because you decided to click that share
button.
And now you're helping that comic get to
more people.
Yep.
That's all it takes.
A second out of your day.
And you never know where that like is
going to go.
So please, people, we don't ask for much,
but a heart and a share,
it goes a long way for us.
And one other thing,
we do have a fund the whole thing,
five thousand dollar tier on our
Kickstarter campaign,
just in case there is anyone with too
much disposable income and too little
impulse control.
I know those people are out there.
There are.
There absolutely is.
You get drawn onto a cover at that
tier,
and you get the original art for getting
drawn onto that cover.
Yeah.
And a lot more.
Producer credit.
Oh, you get to name my firstborn child.
Literally,
that's one of the rewards if my vasectomy
ever fails.
There we go.
The best freaking award out there.
I'm so glad that I could turn you
beet red like that.
That's fun.
Let's hope his vasectomy never fails.
God forbid.
You know, look,
someone that's going to spend five
thousand dollars because of poor impulse
control,
they're the same people that are on these
betting websites taking chances on weird
stuff happening.
So
you know, just think of it like that.
I know a hundred percent,
a hundred percent.
Let's just hope that that holds up,
but let's look ahead.
Where do y'all see Western in two years
from now?
And MJ,
I want to start that with you.
We got to give Sean time to cool
off after that one.
Yeah, I agreed.
Um,
where do I see Western two years from
now?
Uh,
If you say on issue four,
I swear to God.
No.
Hopefully on at least the third story arc.
Fair enough.
Reasonable.
I would say ideally.
Ideally though.
Ideally.
Maybe...
Apple TV nipping at our heels saying like,
hey, we'd like to develop this.
That would be pretty dope.
Or HBO, whoever you want, MJ.
God.
I know earlier y'all had mentioned that
you kind of already have the baseline set
for the story.
Do y'all already know where the story is
ultimately going to end?
Yes.
Yes.
Perfect.
I'm a big,
big proponent of starting a story with the
end in mind.
Yeah.
And that's my problem with mainstream
comics, really, is you pick up Superman.
They don't have an end in mind.
Yeah,
it's just going to go on forever through
reboot after reboot.
It's so tiring.
Or has anybody ever actually seen all of
Dragon Ball Z?
How can you get into that?
Because it's just going to go forever.
They are never going to get all those
Dragon Balls.
If they get close to getting all the
Dragon Balls,
there will be a story where there's more
Dragon Balls.
I don't know how Dragon Balls work because
I would never watch it because it's
endless.
Yeah.
But are there other stories within this
universe that y'all are...
wanting to tell or going to tell at
a later time like which this first you
know seven arcs is done do y'all plan
to go okay let's move this to Easter
and now I'm just making that part up
but we have a mini series planned for
after these seven arcs like just a concept
of a plan to borrow a phrase and
then
possibly something after that.
And then, of course,
we have separate ideas as well for things
outside this world.
But yeah,
we do have a long-term potential plan if
we're so blessed that we get to tell
the story to completion.
Yeah.
Fair enough.
I like it.
All right.
We're going to start bringing it home.
And this is a question I've actually never
asked before.
I don't know why I've never asked this
question.
But you're obviously on the campaign
trail, so to speak, for this Kickstarter.
And you've been doing podcasts now.
Is there a question that you have yet
to be asked?
from a interviewer that you would wish
kind of like people would ask?
I think probably like,
how much money would you like while
they're holding their wallet?
That would be great.
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
You already have my money though.
outside of me giving you monies is there
like just something that hasn't been asked
but that's a good one i like that
one a lot hmm i don't know there
i don't think that i've encountered the
like man i wish someone would ask about
that like i um
Because, I mean,
no matter what you ask me,
I'm going to talk endlessly, obviously.
Oh, yeah.
So I'm not personally missing out on any
opportunities to talk about shit.
How about you, MJ?
What do you think?
Not really.
Sometimes maybe like that I was prepared
to answer this specific question and that
question never came.
But yeah, I don't think mostly about that.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I try to be thorough.
I try to take people on the journey.
That's my big thing.
I try to take people through a journey
of who you are to the book into
where we are right now.
And that is where can people find Western?
The Kickstarter, your social media,
throw all that out there for people.
Well, if you just go to westerncomic.com,
that's W-E-S-T-R-O-N comic.com,
they'll give you everything.
It's got our socials on there.
It's got so many links to the campaign
all over the place, standing out.
You can't miss it.
It's in the description.
And if you want to go straight to
the campaign, it's western.fandomlim.com.
In the description.
In the description.
But westerncomic.com will get you sorted
for everything.
You can learn more about the characters
there.
get a sense of the overall feel.
Yeah.
It's really easy to navigate, people.
All the links that he just mentioned are
actually down in the description below,
including USDNs.
So make sure you go through there,
you click them,
you hit follow on all of them,
and we will be forever eternally grateful
to you for hitting those follow buttons on
our social medias.
But Sean, MJ,
thank you both for joining us tonight.
Was a blast having you on.
Thank you for having us, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you for having us.
Absolutely, and MJ,
I know it's past your bedtime, bud,
so we're going to get you off the
bed now, all right?
Okay.
So,
Western is introducing readers to an
entire mythology that many comic fans have
never explored.
Blending supernatural horror,
detective storytelling,
and folklore into something new.
That's very uniquely.
It's on.
We wish you nothing but success with
Western issue number two and can't wait to
see where this story goes next.
And hopefully you will come back and talk
to us again for the third issue into
everyone watching.
If you've enjoyed tonight's conversation,
be sure to support the Kickstarter.
Follow Sean and MJ across social media and
let them know the council sent you.
Ladies and gentlemen,
this has been the USDN podcast where indie
comics come to life.
The council is now adjourned.
Enjoy your fourth if you celebrate it and
y'all stay safe out there.
Great show.