Black Earth Podcast | Season 3: How to build affordable, inclusive and sustainable homes with Etta Madete

In Season 3 of Black Earth Podcast, we are meeting visionary black women who are creating innovations inspired by nature.

In this episode, we meet the amazing Etta Madete. Etta is an architect, advocate and real estate developer from Kenya. As the founder of Zima Homes, her passion and life’s work is building affordable, inclusive and sustainable housing for communities who need it the most. 

In our conversation, we unpack what affordable and sustainable housing means, why spatial justice is important and how we can design urban spaces for all living beings to thrive.

Timestamps

Welcome - 0:00

Etta’s relationship with nature - 02:10

Etta describes her four principles of well-living - Earth, Fire, Water, Air - 06:48

Etta’s vision for affordable and sustainable housing and why it matters - 16:30

Why affordable and sustainable includes the welfare of nature - 31:53

Spatial justice and what that looks like in Africa - 47:00

How to support Etta and her work - 58:30

How to support Black Earth Podcast - 01:00:30

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Etta’s Four Principles of Well-living - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyrtXQEOoR4 

How to support and connect with Etta 

• Etta’s website and writings: http://ettagold.weebly.com/ 
• Etta’s business, Zima Homes - https://zimahomes.co.ke/ 

How to support and connect with Black Earth Podcast 

• Subscribe to our podcast and leave a review wherever you listen to your favourite podcast
• Connect with us on Instagram, LinkedIn and Tiktok @blackearthpodcast.
• For partnership and media features, email us at [e-mail]

Creators & Guests

Host

Marion Atieno Osieyo

Creator and Host of Black Earth Podcast

Producer

Anesu Matanda Mambingo

Social Media and Marketing Lead

What is Black Earth Podcast ?

Black Earth is an interview podcast celebrating nature and black women leaders in the environmental movement. Join us for inspiring, informed and authentic conversations on how we can make a positive impact for people and nature worldwide.

Episodes out every Wednesday. Connect with us online @blackearthpodcast on Instagram, LinkedIn and Tiktok.

Hosted by Marion Atieno Osieyo. Healing our relationship with nature, one conversation at a time.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: [00:00:00] Welcome to Black Earth Podcast. I'm your host, Marion Atieno Osiyo. In season three of Black Earth Podcast, we're meeting visionary Black women who are creating innovations inspired by nature.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: In this episode, we meet the amazing Etta Madete. Etta is an architect and real estate developer from Kenya. Her passion and life's work is about building affordable and sustainable housing for communities who need it the most.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: In our conversation, we unpack what affordable and sustainable housing means and how we can design urban spaces that promote dignity and wellbeing for human beings [00:01:00] and the rest of nature. Join us for this enlightening conversation.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Um, could you please introduce yourself to our listener community?

Etta Madete: Well it's great to be here. Um, I think I'm also inspired by the work that Black Earth does and Marion is doing. I think amplifying voices is one of the first steps in creating an environment where people can be heard and speak. Um, so I think it's amazing the work you're doing.

Etta Madete: I'm Etta Madete. I'm an architect and a real estate developer. I'm a housing expert and a sustainable design expert. Um, by day, I run a development company that I founded called Zima Homes. Um, by night, I'm a wife, one of seven kids. Um, I'm a twin. Um, generally a happy go lucky [00:02:00] person, um, but extremely grateful for where I am right now and how I can give back.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Thank you, Etta. So Etta, how would you describe your relationship with nature?

Etta Madete: I strongly feel that we should always work alongside everything, um, including nature. But I think, let me just premise it by saying that There's no way that we can all live in on earth and in the world without working together with each other. Whether it means even if there's conflict, even if there's differences, even if there's variations in the way that we perceive the world, even if we have different definitions of things.

Etta Madete: I think that the human race or human nature, or the way that nature actually works, is collaboration, um, co creation, um, and [00:03:00] so I believe that my relationship with nature is that I really want to learn from it. If you look how nature operates, if you look how the natural world, including us, by the way, operates, it insists that the way that we can all cohabitate is by collaboration.

Etta Madete: And so my relationship with nature is how do we work together so that both ecosystems are thrive or all parts of the ecosystems tribe to build out this bigger ecosystem. Um, and that's the second point. I think that was a collaboration and how do we do it all together? Um, the second is, it's an ecosystem nature is not just one thing.

Etta Madete: It's not just climate negative or positivity. It's not just. Um, a tree, you know, maybe we're like, Oh, nature, let's plant trees. I was like, no, that's, that's, that's a very straight linear movement. Um, it's about an ecosystem. So for example, some of the work that I've done in the past is advocating for more [00:04:00] use of commercial timber in construction.

Etta Madete: Not because it means that you go and cut indigenous trees. It's because if you build commercial forests. And make sure that those forests are thriving and that it is an economy that can be thriving, that people will cut less of the indigenous trees because they know the kind of trees that they should plant.

Etta Madete: Um, it provides additional coverage, it encourages a much different ecosystem thinking when it comes to tree planting and how can timber be used in build environment, which in fact decarbonizes the environment because of using less concrete and steel. So in that nutshell, those two things, the first is that.

Etta Madete: It's supposed to be co collaboration, it's supposed to be co creation, it's supposed to be co habitation. Um, and the co collaboration, the co habitation means that it's understanding that the two or three or four entities in any ecosystem have very, very different intention and that's okay. Um, it's how do we grow and thrive together.

Etta Madete: And the second is that it's an [00:05:00] ecosystem. It's not just one thing. It's water systems. It's power systems. It's energy. It's, um, how people take and give back. So it doesn't mean that you don't take from the area around you. It means that you're, you're taking in the same proportion that you give back.

Etta Madete: It's that symbiotic relationship that I believe I think about when I think of nature.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Thank you so much, Etta. Um, that really is one of the most beautiful things, um, about nature. Like when you're starting to learn about nature beyond trees, uh, you begin to see that everything in nature is in relationship to each other and everything is interconnected. Um, and I love your, uh, your reflections on like reciprocity.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: So how can we receive and learn from nature, but also how can we give back to nature? Um, and [00:06:00] yeah, that's a very powerful concept, and it's a very powerful paradigm shift as well, because, um, we speak a lot about the benefits that we receive from nature, um, but Now the, the shift is also about how do we give back to nature consciously through our design and in the way that we live.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Um, so thank you for sharing that.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: I came across a video series that you did a couple of years ago called, um, The Four Principles of Well Living. And I'd love for you to, yeah, [00:07:00] talk more about, you know, why you created it, but also what your four principles of well living are. Cause I think they're actually really very profound and simple, but that's, that's the nature of truth.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Truth is always profound and simple. It's never a thesis. It's always like, to the point.

Etta Madete: It really, really is, um, in the short and like, um, in the short journey I've been here on Earth, though, every single year, month or everything that happens is almost distilling to a simple core. Um, so I completely agree.

Etta Madete: I was just reacting to the fact that, um, I think the older people get, the more complicated everything seems, and it means that their solutions feel like they're more complicated. And I think I'm going the other way. In the beginning, it was this big ball of like, whoa, look at life. What is this adulting?

Etta Madete: What is this? What does it mean to be an adult? Why is it so difficult? And as I've been going through it, in fact, it's been a distilling. It's almost like [00:08:00] boiling a cup of water. It's like, oh, then eventually it's left with nothing, but just the essence. And you're right. It's much simpler than it sounds. Um, I think life is complicated, but living is simple or it can be simple.

Etta Madete: Um, and so I. I, um, five years ago, and I love this because I did this five years ago, maybe almost as a, as a future reminder of myself, um, I called it the principles of well living and looking back, I believe I was trying to articulate what I believe my values are. Um, and to almost the way you articulate and the way that you speak, um, and the way that you are, um, is also connected to sort of like even forward looking vision, current present reminders.

Etta Madete: Um, and that's why I love the work that you're doing on Black Earth, because sometimes you may not be living in that space, but you can aspire to it. Um, so those principles were me almost. Trying to reflect on how would I love to [00:09:00] operate in the world and encourage other people to operate so that they can also feel some feelings and semblance of stability and, and, um, peace.

Etta Madete: And, and also because I believe that the work that I do is very chaotic, like for the most part it is. I'm a developer. I'm in housing. I'm a lecturer. I'm, I've just finished a master's degree in grad school program. It's been a lot. It's been, um, a lot, but I've never once felt, okay, maybe once in a while, but, um, I've always found myself easy, it's much easier to anchor myself once I remember my principles and what I'm calling on my values and the four, um, the beauty is that they were connected to four things, which I believe everyone can relate to one is the earth.

Etta Madete: So one of the principles was staying grounded. And rooted, um, and understanding that, you know, the grass grows where you fertilize it and where you water [00:10:00] it.

Etta Madete: Um, the second is fire, which is like your passion. What is that? What is your why? Like, what is the thing that sparks you and makes it keep going on that? What's that engine? So it sparks the engine to keep it going.

Etta Madete: The third is water. Um, which is just, I love water because it's almost like it's flows. It's clear. It's simple. Um, you've got to let yourself move and go with the flow and it'll get to where it needs to go. Um, there's a saying where it's water may, may seem like the weakest element, but it's the one that cuts through rock to create rivers.

Etta Madete: Um, so, and the beauty about water, when it's flowing, it may not be perceptible, but it takes a lot of time, but it is flowing and is moving. And that's, that's what I remind you to remain. Um, true to what you want it to do or what your principles are, but also to, to allow the, the, the flow that you cannot control to let you know, um, that the fourth one is air, um, which is sort of like not very different from water, which is almost like [00:11:00] letting go.

Etta Madete: But air is trust, air is, is that there's, there's forces, there's things happening that you may not be able to control. And It's not just you who's in this world, it's other elements, other people, it's other, other entities, other, there's a lot more stuff happening around you and you've just got to trust that all of these men create a better world in total.

Etta Madete: Um, and so those four principles, I don't know how much detail I can go into right now, but it's in that order for a reason. How do you stay grounded to the earth? How do you stay rooted to who you are? Amen. For me. I focused on family, friends, what's my focus is a fitness things with that, which I call important, but not urgent.

Etta Madete: But if you don't focus on them, they become urgent quite quickly. Um, so how do you spend your time? How do you make sure that you balance the time between work and life? Um, but also again, if you, if you spend too much time outside of work, then life gets in the way. Um, so I [00:12:00] think. Those come from, how do you, how do you stay grounded?

Etta Madete: Um, and how do you build the right roots and plant the right seeds? And the fire is, you know, your energy for me, innovation, inspiration, impact. But like, my question is that it doesn't matter how wonderful life is. If, if you don't have a reason that you're waking up in the morning, that is not necessarily easy.

Etta Madete: It could be a struggle. I'm thinking about my chaotic life, but I love my chaotic life. I love being a developer. I wake up in the morning and it's like, I'm bombarded with chaos. And I'm like, okay. I was born to do this. Let's do it. Let's do it. Um, and so that, that fire that you, that really keeps you going in the energy.

Etta Madete: And then, um, water and air, I think connect to the fact that, as I mentioned, life is actually complicated, but how you go through it is much simpler. I mean, sometimes I wake up in the morning. I'm like, as long as I do what I'm, what I think is best, and that is, is the right, and I do it with the right intention, um, then we will get to where we need to go.

Etta Madete: Um, and so at some [00:13:00] point with, with me and I'm a planner, I'm a scheduler, I basically, my mind works in an Excel sheet format. Um, even if I'm an architect, I, I've had to really learn how to make the plans and then those are just, I know there's a subset of the larger plans. And the beauty is that because I am a faith based person, the plans that are connected to other people's plans that I cannot see.

Etta Madete: Way better than what I thought of what I, what I planned. And that's, that's a trust that you have to have, that maybe things take much longer than they take or they go in the, in a different direction. But as long as your intention is pure on the start of the day, you end the day saying, you know what? I did the best I could and I can sleep at night consciously knowing that I, I did the best I could.

Etta Madete: Um, then you wake up in the morning, you're like, okay, let's do this again. Um, or you, or you have a weekly cycle. You could, you could have a daily cycle. A weekly cycle, a monthly cycle, a quarterly cycle, a yearly cycle. So you have this touch point. So it's like, yeah, okay. It's okay. Let's keep going. [00:14:00] Um, and so, yeah, those are the principles I was, um, I'd outlined five years ago.

Etta Madete: And to be honest, there's still the principles I follow today, consciously or subconsciously. I believe in those same values of Um, transparency of care and compassion of, of making sure that I remain rooted and grounded. And, um, and I'm, I'm hoping those can help other people also realize, you know, and it's much simpler than it sounds.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Thank you so much Etta. And Those four principles really resonated with me when I watched them. So I'm sure they will resonate with other people. And I'll definitely put a link in your show notes, um, um, so that other people can also, um, access it and, um, integrate it into their lives. So thank you for the inspiration that led you to create them.[00:15:00]

Etta Madete: So I got into architecture to, because I felt that the built environment is such an important part of how people can live well or not well. Um, but initially I really wanted to, to engineer the world around us. So I wanted to be an engineer, I wanted to do robotics and transform, do transformations of how the built can work.

Etta Madete: And I realized that architecture was just a better avenue for that. Um, and then through my journey in architecture and building up agency, I became a real estate developer because I felt that that is basically the ultimate way that then you can ensure that you are infusing this thing from the onset, from how the [00:16:00] financing is structured, from how the project is structured.

Etta Madete: And the minute a development comes into the that does have this principles, other people around them actually follow suit. So that's where I'm at now and it's been a fantastic journey and I'm hoping it'll keep being a fantastic journey going forward.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Wow. Thank you so much Etta. Um, so I, I want to speak to you about, uh, creating affordable and sustainable housing. So I read in your, your website that this is kind of your passion or your, your focus really. Um, what is affordable and sustainable housing mean to you in practice?

Etta Madete: I like how you said it's my passion.

Etta Madete: It is. I, I think it is the, it is the avenue I've chosen to direct my energy. I think [00:17:00] with who anyone is, with all your skill sets, with all your information and learnings, who you choose, everyone's being, everyone's capacity, you can literally direct that in any avenue. And I believe me, so choose a narrow focus and then you'll have more impacts in lifetime, the more focused and narrow your passion of focus is.

Etta Madete: And, and I realized that because I can be a jack of all trades. Um, I will not toot my own horn, but I'm a fantastic operator. I'm fantastic at project management. Um, I'm good at creativity. Good. Not fantastic. Um, but I believe I'm a good strategist as opposed to necessarily a creative. Um, and so when I realized this, I, I almost leaned and moved towards affordable housing because housing is creatively when it comes to how the units are designed. There's no need to really redesign the wheel. You think of all the [00:18:00] floor plans that have ever, ever been done for urban housing, the whole world, there's not much more creativity that the human race can do.

Etta Madete: What creativity is needed is how does that floor plan, interact with the immediate corridor, with the immediate courtyard, with how the blocks are designed to create community. So that's what I love doing. How do you create a housing, urban housing that can create community that can thrive in an urban environment? And so I believe affordable, sustainable, gender inclusive housing, first of all, the effort should be on the urban realm.

Etta Madete: All cities, not even just on the African continent, all of them are urbanizing. And the urban realm is one of the harshest realities of human interface, um, because it's just everyone is busting in, um, for example, give an example of Kenya right now, we're 5 million in the next five, 10 years, we're going to be 10 million.[00:19:00]

Etta Madete: So, you know, do we double in population and not, you know, collapsing on ourselves and how we do that is, you know, the extension of the informal settlements extension of poorly constructed buildings, which are unsafe, you have poor water supply, poor power supply, um, you have more flooding. Um, so.

Etta Madete: The confrontation of the urban realm is extremely harsh, and we cannot prevent the rural to urban migration. And as I said, it's all over the world, developing, developing countries. Um, mostly because again, people call it employment. So it's not a bad thing that they're coming to the city. And the city has this wonderful agglomeration effect of putting people together to create employment opportunities, which cannot happen in a sparse nation.

Etta Madete: And it's again, connected to what I said, which is urbanization, you know, concentration is also good for nature. So that then there's this areas of high productivity, high, you know, community [00:20:00] behavior, and then there's areas of production or agricultural or nature conservation that can then be left to, to nature.

Etta Madete: Yeah. Um, and this is how like human society and, um, natural society and other animal species operate. It's efficient. It makes sense. Um, and so I believe that if we do not do this, this urbanization and think primarily about how we can house the population that is moving into the cities in a way that is affordable, which is basically when a new urban family comes into the city, they can actually afford a house and I, and I usually, and those are very specific things, urban family.

Etta Madete: So they're coming into the city. Second, there are family. So it's not, it's not a tiny house. It's a house that can house a family. And what is the first house that they can afford the first 10 years that they're in the city? That's the question [00:21:00] mark I'm trying to answer. Um, and you'll find that right now, when you come in as an urban family, the first house you can afford in the first time in the city is either an informal settlement or a semi formal apartment that's probably not been built to the highest quality standard.

Etta Madete: The reason that these are the most affordable is because the supply is so little that whatever is built, Including the houses that I built, whatever is built is almost immediately some of the most expensive units in the market. So it doesn't matter the price point that I set and the rental that I control, you'll find that because the housing supply is just, there's not enough housing that the formal supply almost gets completely filled out.

Etta Madete: And then the options that then can be made for the people who are coming in, who maybe may not be able to compete at the price point is poor quality housing. And so this effort of, first of all, just increasing the supply of formal housing just needs to keep happening. The more housing they [00:22:00] are, the more there is.

Etta Madete: There are options for all people, all the income groups. Um, the difficulty is that the deficit is 2 million houses in Nairobi. So I have built, you know, even if I build, I don't know how many houses a year, even in my lifetime, we will not solve that deficit. So I believe affordability is first increasing supply, second, increasing the people who can supply.

Etta Madete: Um, so at Zima, the first thing we do is supplying housing. We try our best to create more housing and, you know, Do that scale, but we also open sourcing. We want to provide information so that I came into the development world and everything was opaque and secret smoke and mirrors and, you know, lots of expensive consultants doing, you know, half work.

Etta Madete: Um, but like I am saying, I think that's not the right approach. I think if you're in affordable housing, we should open source everything and enable more people to develop because there's no competition. There's [00:23:00] no, there's, there's no way in our lifetime we'll, we'll build the amount of housing that we need.

Etta Madete: And we will, you will still make your returns. You will still be able to thrive as a developer. And I'm trying to encourage this idea that if I've learned something, let, let me share it and we create models, toolkits so that other people can also develop to improve affordability, to improve supply. So if you improve supply, increase supply.

Etta Madete: You actually improve the affordability because when you come into the market, if there's 10, 000 houses, then the person who's renting the house can command price. When there's 200, then it's about who, it's about the highest bidder. Um, so that's how I believe we should approach urban affordable housing.

Etta Madete: One is that, first of all, let's focus on the cities. Um, now that the rural areas do not need, um, that effort, but There's a difference between affordable housing that is a single family house or bungalow as a mortgage, whereas an urban rental product and investment product [00:24:00] so that people can actually live in the city in the time that they're there.

Etta Madete: And the second, is that we need to make it much easier for more developers to develop, um, and more developers to feel comfortable building and developing good quality housing. And, um, and then for me, I'm not in, I'm not a developer just to enjoy myself. It's because aside from affordability. The two crucial things is how do we increase so that they're more sustainable because we cannot do this unsustainably.

Etta Madete: Um, so making sure we have energy systems, we have water systems, we're infusing nature into the building. Um, and then the second thing is gender inclusivity. Um, if I tell you the stats, it's very, very unfortunate. Less than 2 percent fund managers in the world are women, less than 11 percent in Kenya are registered engineers or architects.

Etta Madete: Um, less than 2 percent of property owned in the whole of Kenya is under a woman's name. Um, and so we are pushing the boundaries and all [00:25:00] this, not to basically say excluding men. I'm saying that it needs to be, the world needs to be co created with men and women. Um, and so for example, we've had over a hundred women work on the Zima, the current Zima project.

Etta Madete: And this is across the whole delivery value chain from engineers, architects, Um, to construction workers, you have a 30 percent policy on site, getting to 50 percent soon, um, to people who are owning their homes. So it's about creating and, and it's not like, and the secret is not, um, just sort of saying we have a recruitment policy that's female only, no actually we don't do that. We basically say we need to create an enabling environment for women to feel like they can apply.

Etta Madete: Um, second across from construction all the way to access denying to, uh, property per purchase. The second is how do you create an enabling environment for women to stay in real estate?

Etta Madete: It's such a long, hard sector [00:26:00] that is extremely patriarchal. So you get in and if you're not, if you don't have this little, you know, grit. you, you almost feel like you get pushed out. Um, if you don't have the sort of wherewithal to withstand it through the normal female life cycles, um, you find that, you know, it's just too, too difficult to stay in the sector.

Etta Madete: And that's very, that's very true, but very specific sectors, engineering. Finance, um, the tech world, they do not work for, um, to enable women to stay there in the long run.

Etta Madete: And then also, and the last thing is, so not just enabling environment for them to feel like they can apply, they can, they can decide a chance. The second is how do you create an enabling environment for them to stay?

Etta Madete: And then how do you create advocacy systems so that everyone can speak up? Everyone can share, everyone can speak. Everyone can feel like they're being heard. Without necessarily getting into, um, into politicking, it's about just this enabling [00:27:00] environment for people to thrive and feel like everyone can be included in this.

Etta Madete: Um, and so beyond gender inclusivity, I say I do inclusivity, but gender is my first mandate. I am extremely passionate about how we can make it more accessible for less able persons. Um, and at the moment we're starting with the ground floor. Um, how do you make sure that all the ground floor units can have accessibility?

Etta Madete: Then we're going to walk one block and make sure that it's designed in that way. And the most, you know, I'm, I'm like a controversial, um, person in the sector, because all of this is cost more money, which means that then your profit margin is taken down. Your investors look at you like the question mark.

Etta Madete: Um, everything is sort of. Is, is less efficient in terms of the finance portion, but I see the other way we've created a brand value that is advocating for quality, advocating for scale, it's advocating for a better built environment. And that's where all those returns are [00:28:00] made. And those co creation, as I said, the co creation of returns creates a better product overall that in the next 30 years will stand the test of time.

Etta Madete: Um, and so. I may be controversial in the real estate sector, but I've been moving away from being controversial and it being the norm because that's where capital, capital is asking for people to be more sustainable, to be more inclusive. And because I believe that everyone should. And we are open sourcing and we're creating this platforms where people can understand how it can be done in a way that is still not necessarily financially super profit, but just financially profitable.

Etta Madete: Um, and so it's a long and hard journey. Um, but as you said, in the beginning of this podcast, it's much, it's easier because I sleep at night. I'm like. In my head, I'm like, none of it goes against my values. And at the start of this journey, it was very difficult because you come into this sector and all these [00:29:00] values around like, That doesn't seem right.

Etta Madete: Um, people are saying this is how things are done. This is the norm, you know, you need to follow the line and I'll be like, okay. Um, and now I'm in a position where it's, I say, it's not a must. We can do things better. Um, and this is how it can be done. And, and you'll find that, um, when there's a place where you can stand in the light.

Etta Madete: Even in a sort of dark sector, um, people then begin to move towards that light. And then the light spreads out a bit further. Um, and that's what I feel that, um, the role of housing, affordable housing, sustainable housing has in the urban role.

Etta Madete: They almost every beautiful new housing development, and I'm seeing them all over Nairobi. This has the spreading effect. It increases dignity. It increases. People's hope. Um, it increases people's energy. People spend 80 percent of their time in their homes. Um, and so, [00:30:00] and 80 percent of most cities is housing. Um, so all these other shiny things are just sort of like a byproduct of a thriving economic environment that's built on quality housing.

Etta Madete: Um, so that was a long answer, but, uh, but yes, , that's why I'm in it and why I'm still in it. Um, and where I'm going.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Thank you so much Etta, um, I can just hear in your response also that you have really thought through this, like thought through what your philosophy, your vision is, um, and I think that's the beauty of engaging in life, engaging, going all in on life.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: You learn through it what you stand for and what matters to you. And so, um, I found at the beginning of kind of my journey and my work in, in earth care, nature restoration, that I was, I had a lot to learn in terms of knowledge, in terms of skills. [00:31:00] But at a certain point, those things start to even out. And so the thing that really starts to mark your work is your values and, and how your values inform the decisions that you make.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Um, and essentially I believe that your values become basically your blueprint or the legacy that you leave behind. Right. Um, and so it's really kind of refreshing just to hear in your response that you've you've thought through this, um, as you're working, as you're doing the things that you do. Um, and yeah, it's come across really passionately.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: So thank you.[00:32:00]

Marion Atieno Osieyo: I had a question just linked to, um, what you've shared with us about the role of the built environment in, in helping us in terms of becoming more climate resilient, um, in creating spaces that also safeguards kind of the welfare of nature. Um, because as it were, even sometimes there is a tension that the more we build, you know, um, that it's not just about carbon emissions, because built environment do contribute a lot to carbon emissions, but that's just not just because of what is being built, but also how energy, um, is contained and transmitted within a built environment. There's a lot behind that. It's not just a linear, um, cause and effect.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Um, but, um, with, with a demand for [00:33:00] more housing, more kind of built spaces, that can also be in competition with the natural world and conserving spaces for nature to thrive.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: So there's, I wonder just how, as a developer, you are navigating these questions because often the answer looks simple, but it's actually really complicated in real life because life is complicated. You have to balance different perspectives all the time. Um, so I just wonder how you navigate those questions.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: And I think that's particularly important for, um, you know, countries such as Kenya, continent of Africa, like which like contributes less than 5 percent of global carbon emissions in the world, but is on the forefront of, you know, some of the most harshest impacts of climate change.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Right. So. There is an important element about factoring, factoring [00:34:00] in resilience, which also includes safeguarding and taking care of nature. Um, so I just wonder how you navigate that as a developer, when you're thinking about creating community through the built environment.

Etta Madete: Yeah.

Etta Madete: A wonderful narrative I can describe is, is how connected at least Africa is still to nature. We're not yet disconnected. Um, we, we know where our food comes from. We, we know how nature works and how the seasons work. Our seasons are not confusing. It's rainy season and it's dry season. And I tell people when it's raining in Nairobi and everyone is complaining to this traffic, I'm saying it's a blessing because it means that we get

Children playing: food.

Etta Madete: Um, and so we have to leverage that [00:35:00] urbanizing. I always say that we, we have leapfrogged. Uh, my grandmother lived through colonialism and she's here right now. And so what that means is that we've gone from, we lived in villages and ship domes. To being colonized by the UK at least East Kenya, and then to being a free state and independence, free state that's growing and urbanizing, and now we're in the age of AI.

Etta Madete: So we have, we have grown in the, we've grown through the world at this incredibly fast pace. And that is a great opportunity to realize the fact that not only are we still connected to our roots, I know I still, my family still lives on its ancestral land. Um, and so we're still connected to that. And we still have this idea that we are at the forefront of technology, the forefront of innovation, because we don't have, we're not hung up with a whole industrial process, which we cannot [00:36:00] explain or can't unlink.

Etta Madete: And so this awareness is not yet lost, but it can be. And so the, the way that we build our cities can act as one, reminders to everyone who's moving through our spaces, that nature is good, that nature is there. Um, and it's not as simple as, you know, we need to put a green wall and put a planter with a plant.

Etta Madete: No, it is, it is infusing natural systems within the way that the city works. And, and using that as a way to educate the population that it is an ecosystem system. Um, something as simple as, um, as how we deal with the recycling and waste, something as simple as how do we conceptualize, as I mentioned, stormwater management and I'm saying technical terms and I'll go into detail a bit more, um, how do we deal [00:37:00] with, um, you know, how we handle, so how do we deal with new, new, when you, when you build a new building, what, how, how is it built for like, you know, cause buildings take like five, 10 years, how do we, you know, How do people build it?

Etta Madete: Uh, what are the, how do the systems flows? Or what is the signage? How are you dealing with safety? Um, how are you dealing with security, lighting and access? Um, and if we sort of envision a world where every single plot. It's connected to a sort of an estate or community that's connected to a much larger sort of ecosystem of urban fabric of city of schools, hospitals, etc.

Etta Madete: And that's connected now to the largest city. If you so begin looking at the smaller building block that every house. You know, even if, you know, many people say, it doesn't matter if I recycle in my house, it's going to go into a big dump somewhere in my answer, my question is usually like, it [00:38:00] doesn't mean that you shouldn't recycle in your house in my head.

Etta Madete: It's like, there's a, there's a reason you should say you're recycling your house because it trains you to understand that all these things came from somewhere and they need to go somewhere and we should stop them so that then wherever they go, they're able to sort of be more productive and a bit to recycle.

Etta Madete: Or to be reused or not to be put in one big mess that can cannot, can never be an undone. And so the house and the home has that capacity. And as I said, it doesn't mean that then you only build houses that have X, Y, Z, because it's more expensive, but I believe in incremental impact. So the house, maybe it has to be built out of concrete and stone and masonry, because that's what we can afford right now.

Etta Madete: But is there a portion of it that can have a bit more of natural materials? Um, you know, like the compressed soil blocks, for example, in one wall, for example, um, a little bit of a timber, maybe the timber treads of the [00:39:00] stairs. Um, maybe the railing can have a little bit of timber to replace some of the steel.

Etta Madete: Um, and having, and that is not just to basically begin to decarbonize the built environment, um, to reduce a lot of steel and concrete we're using incrementally over time, but it's also because the people who are living in that space. When they're faced with, you know, the difference between touching a steel rail and touching a, um, a timber rail, even that small thing subconsciously begins to move people back.

Etta Madete: Not too far as I said, because I think we're still connected. Move people back to being connected to this idea that, um, yes, it's a built environment. Yes, it's a little bit harsh, but it can be warm as well. And the lessons we learned from nature is that nature constructs forests. Nature builds. Nature, you know, doesn't, it demolishes, it builds, it has cycles.

Etta Madete: It's very systematic. Um, it has, um, [00:40:00] elements that, you know, there's, there's some things that take over other ecosystems and there's some that, um, the, the, the, the, then eventually begin to thrive and build on from it. So I believe cities can be designed in that way as well. We have this connecting systems of transport links.

Etta Madete: We have systems of water, water systems. We have so many systems, which are very easy to tap into and which are completely connected to everyone else. So when you don't have power, um, the, your neighbor also doesn't probably have power. So it means that you need to work together and it's not just your house, it's the house and the entire development.

Etta Madete: So in my mind, the way we design our built environment completely connects to people's capacity to connect to nature. And to realize the importance about how systems work and if you can sort of get that sort of simple system in the house. Simple system in the apartment, the simple system in the neighborhood, then use that to educate the simple system in the whole world, in the whole city, [00:41:00] then you can talk about how is this city, how is the waste in Nairobi dealt with?

Etta Madete: Most people don't know. Where does the trash go? Well, and like, it's right there. If I draw a map, I'll be like, it goes here, it does this, it does that. And then it affects here. And, and that is, I believe the role of the built environment as it's getting built. And we are building very, very fast. So we can do this now.

Etta Madete: We can course correct now. We don't have to do flyers and webinars, um, like in the West, because people have no clue where food comes from. Um, then I, I just, I get chicken in my fridge, um, and I'm like, no, there's a whole ecosystem connected to how the chicken comes into your fridge. Um, and we can begin to course correct, um, back, um, retrogressively, sorry.

Etta Madete: The West has to cause correct retrogressively where we can do it right now. Um, I believe you're making some progress. Um, but. This idea of you come into the city, it is, you know, this idea of the country home, like in the [00:42:00] home, that's when you're like, you're on the ground, you're sitting outside and you're looking at your ducks and chickens, and then the city, you're in this sort of cubicle and you're watching what working, I think there can be a spread in between, um, because we spend so much time and we spend maybe 20, 30 years of our lives in the city.

Etta Madete: And then most people sort of go back. There's a very natural cycle in Kenya. Um, I, I always say, I already know where I'm going to retire because it's my, it's my ancestral, my husband's ancestral home. Um, but I know that I need to spend 30, 40 years in the city working. Um, so it does, it doesn't mean that I need to come into the city, take what I need to take and go back home.

Etta Madete: It means that I come into the city. I'm able to still behave in the way that is connected to nature. In the city. Um, and, and in those 20, 30 years, it doesn't mean that I'm in and out and you know, whatever happens happens. It means that can we also train people to sort of care for the environment. Um, and think of it as something that they're nurturing for the next generation.

Etta Madete: [00:43:00] Um, I also premises by saying maybe I'm in a position of extreme privilege to either have all this technical information on the how, and have this capacity to think about these things in terms of the why, and somehow it's all connected to the work that I do, which I think is a blessing. Um, but I will premise again by what I said, which is that life is, it's hard for very many people.

Etta Madete: Um, the economy is tough. In Maslow's Hierarchy of Myths, we're just dealing with food and shelter, and safety, and that's, already very difficult. Um, and so I say that it's, it's the duty of those with the privilege to be able to think about these things and build cities and stuff like that, to not say and point fingers at these guys and what they're doing.

Etta Madete: It's to basically make it almost seamless. I have a great example where yesterday I discovered, um, that the cab I was in and actually the cab and the [00:44:00] matatu I was in yesterday are all, um, electric. And I said, Oh, we're really advanced. Where are they charging these? And they're like, no, this is self charging electric cars.

Etta Madete: So I was like, question mark, um, please explain. And they said, you know, the motor self charges as it's going and, and we only use about, I'll say 15 dollars of fuel every single month, usually just in emergencies. So I have sort of in my mind, I'd mentally dismissed the electric car movement because it was, it has been in my mind, the West put up as this expensive brand kind of thing.

Etta Madete: You need chargers. I was in, I was in Netherlands and it's like. You have a charging port area and I'm like, that can't really work in Kenya because you still need to deal with power. Um, and then I hear this sort of like idea and it has been taken up by almost everyone because it was not sold as climate positive.

Etta Madete: It was just sold as it's [00:45:00] more efficient. And it actually, it's just common sense. Um, and, and, and it has completely changed our bill, our transportation, transportation systems. So I see, I see that example to say that. Even with the technical, the knowledge, the advocacy, the complicated stuff, if you cannot get, you know, the, the, the zero to 40 percent of the population in the bottom of the pyramid to adopt something, that one is just, it's stories for the books.

Etta Madete: Um, and so the built environment, affordable housing, it shouldn't be this sort of thing that is oppressing people. It should be like, this is common sense. This is, this is the best way to deal with trash. This is the best way to deal with stormwater. This makes a lot of sense in terms of transportation. Um, and, and when it comes to nature and safeguarding, it's just so crucial to, to not force people to care, but to show people that caring is common sense.

Etta Madete: Um, [00:46:00] and it's simpler than it looks. So I hope I answered your question, but. But yeah, I think safeguarding the natural environment is something that's very natural to people in on the continent, but the built environment almost makes it impossible to do it as it should be.

Etta Madete: So we have a role, we have a really important role to play to make it easy, obvious, um, and much simpler than it sounds.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: So I, I will have just two final questions for you, um, if that's okay. Um, My first question is to do with the idea of, um, spatial justice. In Black Earth podcast, um, I've interviewed a number of people.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Um, and obviously the big question of this podcast is how can we reconcile with nature, um, by design on a personal level through our relationship with nature, but on a collective level through the systems [00:47:00] and infrastructures and institutions that we create.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: And this idea of spatial justice, as I understand how, um, the issue of like social equality manifests itself in a public space through access, through resources, through opportunities, all of those things, how do they manifest in the physical spaces around us? Um, so for example, I think one thing I can just bring up, which, but it's come up a lot, um, is around like access to nature.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: So for example, in the UK, communities of color have disproportionately fewer access to nature and like open natural spaces than other communities. Um, I'm sure you've heard of the term gentrification.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: So, you know, you having a community that's lived in a specific [00:48:00] area for a long time, uh, and you know, that area has very poor public services, and then suddenly, you know, You know, you have development happening or you have a new community arriving and then suddenly all the public services are up to scratch and they're like functioning really well.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Um, and you know, the example, uh, Leah Penniman, whom I interviewed in season one, speaking about food deserts in America and how there are certain neighborhoods that literally do not have anywhere selling fresh affordable, nutritious food. And so a lot of the things they have is junk food, which obviously has huge implications for health, um, the health of that community. And that again is disproportionately, um, in lower income communities, uh, communities where they're, you know, people of color there.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: So this idea of spatial justice has come up a lot. And obviously when speaking [00:49:00] about housing, like affordable, sustainable housing has to manifest itself. So I, I guess my question to you is how can we make sure that affordable and sustainable housing, enables spatial justice, enables greater quality, um, within public spaces.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Um, and isn't just built for those that already have. If that makes sense.

Etta Madete: I think apart from ensuring that we build well and that we build safely. That's just kind of doing my currents. It's just a safe building. Um, and we both sustainably to deal with nature coming in and nature that we've taken over.

Etta Madete: I think that the way that we're building is extremely exclusionary and it causes this disparity that you're describing. And given that I've spent one year in the States and before I grew up in Europe for some time, but I've spent [00:50:00] most of my life in Nairobi, I, I know for a fact that the West has to retrogressively fix these injustices, um, because of how they built and distributed property and wealth.

Etta Madete: The most, the biggest source of wealth and income in any family is real estate and, and, and property assets. And if that is disproportionately allocated from the very onset, then it creates. A whole future world where there's no situation where you'll create spatial justice. And this is exactly what you've just described, which is that, for example, in Kenya, anywhere near parks or open spaces or greenery is the most expensive space in the whole city.

Etta Madete: Um, and that seems a bit weird because in the rural areas, um, farmland is considered the most affordable, um, places to live. [00:51:00] So in the city, nature is used, nature and natural spaces, things like conservation is a privilege of the very few.

Etta Madete: And I think that's not how it should be. Um, because access to nature, access to open spaces, space is connected to people's well being while living and their capacity to drive the economic engine. And I believe the economic engine is driven by the majority. And so something, for example, we are working on, and it's, as I said, I'm extremely controversial in real estate, is as simple as for example, all the public primary schools in the city are usually the last remaining reserve of grid space as the city is urbanizing.

Etta Madete: Um, and for the longest time I used to walk by very high end neighborhoods, like in somewhere called Kileleshwa, this high neighborhood, millions of dollars of houses, um, houses worth millions of dollars.

Etta Madete: And then within these sort of [00:52:00] neighborhoods, there's this public primary school. Um, and a public primary school is free for low income families. And what I loved about seeing these public primary schools as pockets within these high end neighborhoods is that the public primary school was there before the high end neighborhood decided it was going to be there.

Etta Madete: And, and it's still there now, which means that the community has preserved the fact that there needs to be good public primary schools within the urban area. The difficulty is that as the city is urbanizing and as the area becomes more expensive, The kids and the families who go to the schools, including the teachers have to live further away.

Etta Madete: So the school is still there, but the school, the kids, the teachers have to live far away, but they still need to come to that school. So my question is that as we go into other areas, um, I'm just describing, for example, in the Nairobi County, all, most of it is developed. The land is already expensive.

Etta Madete: There's not much you can do about that gentrification issue now, but immediately on the outskirts, [00:53:00] um, and I say outskirts loosely because the outskirts is just 20, 30 minutes from the city center. Um, so as the metropolitan region, that's Kiambu, Machakos, Ngong, um, those areas as they're developing, um, my view is let's look at those public primary schools.

Etta Madete: Can we preserve affordability immediately around it? Can we ensure that around this public primary school and around things like public hospitals and police stations, which are all publicly, and they're very grounded. And I, and I'm very proud of our country because they are preserved affordability.

Etta Madete: Social and social services, the health systems. Yes, there's private schools, there's private hospitals, but there's still this public entities that I believe can serve as anchors. And the next step is to make sure that And I'm not saying the whole area around them should be affordable because I don't believe in concentration of poverty.

Etta Madete: I believe everything needs to be working together to build, um, an ecosystem. And I also don't [00:54:00] believe in concentration of poverty because in the African context, economic mobility is extremely fast. Economic mobility is connected to education. Um, so it's not an issue of your low income because you are low income.

Etta Madete: It's an issue of your low income for three to five years. Um, so I believe that within these anchors, um, that, that are existing in us, in our communities, can we create master plan and zone in a way that in the future, there's some part of how we can preserve affordability.

Etta Madete: And there's very simple ways of doing that, but that happens in the UK, in the US, you create, you tell developers, you could build here.

Etta Madete: Um, but 10 percent of your housing stock needs to be fixed rental or 10 percent of your housing stock needs to be connected to the school so that they can manage who rents there. And I'm not saying that you give housing for free. I'm saying that you have rental subsidies, rental controlled for a certain portion of housing around anchors that are already affordable.

Etta Madete: Um, and so [00:55:00] spatial justice right now is on everyone's mind. And I love the current generation's push for this. And in the West, they have to retrogressively infuse spatial justice in the U S they have to, their cities are already built and already owned. And they have to basically say, now you have to put 10 percent affordable housing.

Etta Madete: Now you have to make sure there's rental subsidies and it's very expensive in Kenya and in Africa. We can do that right now because we know it's going to happen. We know that that area will gentrify. I know I can see it. I'm currently in a road, I'm in Westland on Raptor Road. And when we moved here, I think six years ago, five years ago.

Etta Madete: I can't remember. Um, when you moved here, it was the sleeping giant. It's a very old apartment. Um, it's one of those that the owners held out. Um, so it's an old apartment and all around it, all around us, there's been development. There was no shop. [00:56:00] The nearest shop was like, um, at the corner, very far away.

Etta Madete: And now Carrefour has come next door, Naivas is two minutes away. The whole area has gentrified in the last five years, and that's perfectly normal. And I'm encouraging development because the city has to function. And the more the city functions, the more people are able to get out of economic disparity and build a life for themselves.

Etta Madete: But. I can, I can tell it's going to happen. And this is, as I said, Westlands is long gone, um, but the metropolitan region, there's still hope. And I mentioned Nairobi, for example, is going to go from 5 million to 10 million. So the whole metropolitan region is about to develop. Can we now infuse some of these special things?

Etta Madete: To be able to change how our city will grow. Um, as I said, it's a much, it's a wilder concept, but the most exciting thing is that on the African context, we can do it, um, in the West, it has to be done retrogressively. And [00:57:00] in answer to your question, I think it is core. It is a hundred percent core. We cannot have our cities oppress the people who need empowerment in the cities to be there.

Etta Madete: Um, it's, it's not economic injustice. Because everyone in their hearts and hearts do, does want to do economic well, it is infused systemic injustice that makes people completely incapable of helping themselves and the way we design our cities, the way we design our systems can really change that.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Thank you so much, Etta.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: I'm so grateful for the time we have. Um, Etta, how can we support you and support your work? I am

Etta Madete: extremely passionate about advocacy. So, as I'm speaking on the work that I'm doing, including nature, I do a lot of work on alternative building materials, natural building materials, [00:58:00] how they can be infused within buildings.

Etta Madete: Things like rental subsidy programs. I believe all of these things have to work in parallel with natural market systems. So I don't believe that then it's a foundation, it's, it's philanthropy that comes and rescues.

Etta Madete: No, those basically act to catalyze. Um, and things like Black Earth can, can build on that, which is to say, what is the one thing we can do to prove the model that it can actually be done?

Etta Madete: And then we catalyze um, the normal market to behave, um, something as simple as exhibitions and advocacy and podcasts.

Etta Madete: Um, I've been awarded a series of grants that does sort of like the, the initial work of the mapping. And then my view is that then it shouldn't be, that is being funded by philanthropy because I don't think that's sustainable, scalable, or generally I believe other people should uptake these things.

Etta Madete: It does that small bit that then catalyzes the market to do better. So I think any support when it comes to research ideas, catalytic, the [00:59:00] catalytic vehicle that can then sort of uplift the market to do better, any support along there would be much appreciated. Um, but as I said, I think it's all connected to advocacy research, being a doer and a thinker, um, getting, stuff done, stepping back, trying to look back and reflect on it.

Etta Madete: Um, and then doing better, um, the next time. So other than that, I think I, I would love to hear about people's thoughts and ideas, and I love sharing, um, and seeing how we can improve the built environment and the community as a whole.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Thank you so much, Etta. Thank you.

Marion Atieno Osieyo: Thank you so much for joining us on today's episode. We'd love to stay connected with you. You can subscribe to Black Earth Podcasts wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts, and you can also connect with us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and TikTok at Black Earth [01:00:00] Podcasts. See you in the next episode.