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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Welcome to this episode of Therapy & Theology. My name is Lysa TerKeurst, and I'm here with my teammates Dr. Joel Muddamalle from Proverbs 31 Ministries and Licensed Professional Counselor Jim Cress. We're so thankful Compassion International has partnered with us to sponsor this season of Therapy & Theology. Compassion brings real solutions to poverty that so many children in today's world are facing, all in Jesus' name and through the generosity of sponsors like you and me. Visit compassion.com/proverbs31 or click the link in our show notes to join me in sponsoring a child today.
In this season, we're focusing on how to be more self-aware. We all want to grow, but sometimes we have a difficult time determining what it is that's keeping us from truly healing and becoming more of the person God made us to be. As we dive into each episode, I encourage you to download a free resource I put together titled “What's It Like To Do Life With Me?” This resource will help you find out what it's like for others to interact with you; you can work through these insightful questions with a trusted friend.
Now, let's dive in. OK, today we're talking about self-awareness, but first I felt like it would be good for us to have confession time.
Jim Cress:
Why are you looking at me to start?
Joel Muddamalle:
Hold on.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Because he's eager to share his confession.
Joel Muddamalle:
That's not true.
Jim Cress:
Always eager.
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK.
Joel Muddamalle:
I feel like I got set up.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Name something that you go, Oh, why do I do this? Why do I do what I don't want to do?
Joel Muddamalle:
OK, I just want to start by saying that on Tuesday nights, I play basketball. And, y'all, I need you to know this. Last Tuesday night, I had the best game of my life. We play games up to 18 points. I average six to nine points, which I just —
Jim Cress:
There's a video to prove it.
Joel Muddamalle:
There's video, yes. OK. And I crushed three game-winning shots. All right, but this is the thing: Why do I do the things that I do?
Lysa TerKeurst:
You know what? Hold on. I am so impressed right now that you just wrote a book on theology — I mean you just wrote a book on humility — and now you're bragging. This is epic. We just need to pause and receive this. OK, go ahead.
Joel Muddamalle:
God teaches us humility in so many ways. OK, here's the thing. [My wife] Britt made the most incredible dinner before, and she knows I play basketball on Tuesdays, so it's a great, protein-filled dinner, and I'm good. And we're on a budget. We're like, “Hey, we're going to be really careful with what we're spending.” We've got some goals, and it's really good. And I don't know how this happens, but I get done [with the basketball game], and I drive down the same road every time to come back home, and without even knowing it — I don't understand this, Jim, so I'm going to need your help — I make a right turn and then another right turn and then do a little curve, and all of a sudden I'm ordering a No. 4 Crunchwrap Supreme (with a soft taco instead of a hard-shell taco) with a bunch of Fire Sauce and a Baja Blast.
Jim Cress:
It's called classical conditioning. Study Pavlov's dogs. Your mouth is watering. They ring the bell and you're in Taco Bell. See, the bell.
Joel Muddamalle:
The bell.
Jim Cress:
Taco Bell right there. Of course.
Joel Muddamalle:
But then here's the thing. Then I get out and I eat my Taco Bell in the parking lot by myself, and I just wonder: Why do I do ...? Sometimes I'll even have this mental thought as I'm leaving the gym: No Taco Bell. Joel, you're going to do it — this time you're going to go straight home. It's going to be great. And then it’s right turn, right turn, go to the curve, in the line, order my No. 4.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Brittany is for sure going to want to favorite this episode right here. She's been waiting for this moment, for you to say, “I should not be doing this.”
Joel Muddamalle:
I should not be doing this.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I guess it's my turn now. Why do I do what I don't want to do? My mouth keeps saying “yes” when my brain is absolutely screaming, “No, don't! You don't have time. You don't have the capacity for this. Say ‘no,’ say ‘no,’ say ‘no’!” And then my mouth is like, “Of course I would love to do that.”
Why do I do what I don't want to do? Your turn, Jim.
Jim Cress:
Mine is — and we'll get to this in one of the episodes — but I was either born with or quickly developed a seriously anxious attachment style. And so inside, that has really grown and transformed with a lot of therapy. Why do I do what I don't want to do in this? Or sometimes [I ask myself]: Why do I do what I do? Why did I just do that? I will at times still react instead of respond, no matter how much I've taught or written about it or spoken on it, especially if I'm tired or stressed. I go to a reaction mode. I feel like, Jimbo, you know better … but I still do it.
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. We asked our listeners for some more examples, and so these are some of their answers.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Why do I say “yes” to that person every time?
Why am I always running late?
Why can't I ever get it together or get ahead?
Why do I always feel like it's my fault?
Why do I never feel like it's my fault?
Why do I always try to manage other people's emotions and feelings?
Why does this person always get the worst side of me?
Why do I always feel like I have to say something? Silence should be an option, right?
Why do I keep doing this? Why am I still tempted by this?
Why do I keep saying things that don't match my true heart's intent?
OK, maybe there are some other ways that you may be asking this question: Why do I do what I don't want to do? Why can't I just make progress? Why can't I get rid of [fill in the blank]? Maybe it's that feeling — maybe it's anxiety.
Why does relational drama keep coming up in my life? Why can't I put boundaries into practice?
And also, I feel like sometimes we're so acutely aware of our faults that we can even just berate ourselves, just speaking to ourselves with an overactive conscience. Joel, why do we do this? From a theological standpoint, what do you have to say? And, Jim, from a therapy standpoint, what do you have to say?
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. I think from a theological standpoint, we always have to be aware that there is a motivation that is driving us as human beings. For instance, there are these early Church theologians Martin Luther and John Calvin, and they have this Latin saying, which basically is the heart bent incurvatus in se. And what that means is that —
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK, wait. What is that phrase you just said?
Joel Muddamalle:
Incurvatus in se. It's a Latin phrase. The heart —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Caved in.
Joel Muddamalle:
— is caved in or bent in, right?
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK.
Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.
Joel Muddamalle:
And so this is really important. In the opening pages of Genesis, we have this idea that God creates humans with an object of affection. And that object of affection is God Himself. They're always designed to have an ambition, a drive, a desire, to pour out love onto God, and then to rightly — this is super important — appropriately pour out love to each other. This also includes creation because they're supposed to be — guess what? — good stewards of creation, of the animals, of the plants. There's this balanced order here.
What sin does … Sin doesn't turn off that love. Sin doesn't turn off the ambition or the desire. What sin does … This is another theologian, modern-day: James Smith says it this way — that if your heart is a pump that is pouring out love, and the object of affection was always supposed to be God, what sin does is it knocks that heart pump off kilter. And no longer is it pouring desiring love out to the appropriate and proper object of affection.
It's being curved inward, and we're actually pouring out love onto ourselves, which means we have desires and ambitions and we do the things that we do because there's an undercurrent of desire that we believe we are going to get something out of it. And at the very bottom of that is this hidden, passive, subversive doubt that God can actually be the fulfillment of the thing that you're actually longing for.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's so interesting, Joel, because my confession that I made is: Why does my mouth keep saying “yes” when my mind is saying “no”?
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I think we will always be desperate to get from other people what we fear we'll never get from God. And so I think the reason that I'm saying “yes” is not just to people-please. It's not that I just want to make everybody happy. It's because the person I'm doing this with has something I don't want them to take away from me. Either they have acceptance of me or they're fun and I don't want them to think poorly of me or I really want them to love me or admire me or respect me. And so I'm afraid if I say “no,” then they will take that love, respect and honor away from me. I'll say it again: We will always desperately try to get from other people what we fear we will never get from God.
Joel Muddamalle:
Right.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I know that's a big, deep answer to why I say “yes” when my mind says “no,” but I think it is more serious than that. I do think it comes back to [the fact that] I fear that maybe God won't provide the same good feelings that I'm loved, I'm accepted, and people are happy with me.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And they're not going to reject me. And so I think sometimes I fear that I don't know how to get the tangible feeling from God. I know it with my mind. God loves me. God respects me. God adores me like I am His child. He sees me as an image bearer of Christ. I know all of that with my mind, but sometimes my heart goes searching out here. And I think you're right.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
It's because the love pump is knocked off kilter.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And so I'm desperate to get those things from other people, which then throws me into trying to please them so they'll give me what I really want them to give me.
Jim Cress:
You've just eloquently described … When I talk about people-pleasing in my own life or in the lives of others, [I say that] when I'm people-pleasing, the No. 1 person I'm really trying to please is myself. People-pleasers — I’ve been one many times — are actually very powerful. We are not weak. Because I will feel like I can … almost like you're a vending machine, and I’m coming to put my quarters in and get out of you what I want, your approval or your blessing. And you've also just described, Lysa, what I would call (and others would probably call) a scarcity mentality in relationships. I'm not enough. I'm not enough to stand on my own two feet in and of myself. And so we want to examine that [mentality that] there won't be enough. Or if I do X, Y or Z or have boundaries, if I dare to say “no,” then I might lose access to you, relationship with you. And maybe I'm not even thinking about the quality of that relationship I have with you already. But there was an old show called Hee Haw that had a song in it that said, “If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all.”
Lysa TerKeurst:
I would have no luck at all.
Jim Cress:
I've said that to people.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Joel doesn't know this one because he's too young.
Jim Cress:
Young ’uns.
Lysa TerKeurst:
We're old.
Jim Cress:
Yeah. We're old. And I'm really old, but I'd rather take a bad relationship or maybe an unhealthy or even toxic relationship than no relationship at all. I've said a bunch, and you both have heard it, that what I don't work out in my life, there's a good chance I'm going to act out. We've said many times right here on this program that if it's hysterical, it's historical. In me, what might be going on inside me, in my story, may be some unfinished business from the past that sets me up to hustle for my worthiness.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Mm-hmm.
Jim Cress:
And the thing is there's always a payoff. What are you getting out of it? “I'm getting nothing out of hustling here or this scarcity mentality or people-pleasing,” [we say]. But no, there's always a payoff or we wouldn't do it. Discovering what that payoff is? That's another story.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah. In Joel's case, yummy tacos. And the feeling … Honestly, what I think the Taco Bell thing is — sorry, I'm not a therapist, so, Jim, correct me if I'm about to ruin his life. [Turns to Joel.] But I really think it's that you feel like you are in control and nobody can boss you around, and you go to the Taco Bell, and you order what you want and eat what you want, and nobody sees.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
It's almost as if it didn't happen.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, yeah. I think, Jim —
Jim Cress:
Well, you remember we talked about this before?
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Jim Cress:
You're also a bit dissociated. That's not a bad word. We all dissociate a little bit. Because are you sitting in the car just staring off into oblivion, or are you watching something on a device? Well, no, just be honest about it. And I'm a big fan. You've got the olfactory senses — everything's involved.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Jim Cress:
When you're talking about this, I literally am sitting here craving Taco Bell right now.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, yeah.
Jim Cress:
Lunch is coming.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, I do. I watch First Take.
Jim Cress:
But it's honest. You've got a perfect environment to go to. Plus you have been on the basketball court, and whether you played well or not, neurochemically, you've been in a rush.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Jim Cress:
All that stuff going on in your body, all those neurochemical processes going on, begin to wane and come down. It's quite a comforting thing to be there and to distract and to dissociate yourself — in a healthy way, probably — for a little bit. Makes sense.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I think to some extent we're also factoring in some unspoken rules that maybe we acquired through Christianity or maybe even through our families of origin.
Jim Cress:
Yeah.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I was having a conversation recently with Madi Vincent. She works here at Proverbs 31 Ministries.
Joel Muddamalle:
Her last name is Greenfield now.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Oh. She just got married, you guys.
Jim Cress:
We interrupt this program for the following name change.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mads, I got you. Don't worry.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I have this issue when all my friends and staff members get married — I don't change their names in my phone.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And so this just happens.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I still know them. OK, whatever.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. I got you.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Sorry, Madi. OK. But I was having this conversation with her, and in Christianity and in my family of origin, I have felt for so long that it's like, “You should do this, and you should do this, and you should do this.” And anytime I start to feel this “should”-ness being put on me, then it makes me feel like I have to do this, or I'm not a good Christian. I have to do this, or I'm not a good daughter. I have to do this, or I'm not a good friend.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I have to do this, or I'm not a good employee of Proverbs 31 Ministries.
Jim Cress:
The pressure's on. I'm feeling it as you [speak.] I'm like, Wow, the pressure's on there, isn't it?
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And to some extent, we do have responsibilities with all of those things, absolutely. And there are rules that need to be followed. There are commands of God that need to be honored and followed. But I think what happens to me is outside of the biblical truths that I do need to follow, and outside of the expectations of my work or even my friends, I start taking those “shoulds” and putting them on myself, and then I turn them inside of me, and it feeds, like, a condemnation.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
The conversation I was having with Madi was … She had this revelation: What if we changed from “I should do this,” which can feed condemnation and all of that, to “I could do this”?
Jim Cress:
That's good.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I think that's a much more empowering way to do it. When a friend asks you to go to dinner, instead of feeling like, I should do this — I've got a lot going on tonight, but I really should go out to dinner with this friend on this particular night just because they made a request … what if we say to ourselves, I could? I could go to dinner with this person. I could choose to, or I could choose to go home and do what I need to responsibly do and offer another night for dinner with this friend.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Just because someone makes a request, their request should never be our absolute demand.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
We can respect their request … And certainly with different roles: If it's a boss, then you need to honor that request, right?
Joel Muddamalle:
Right.
Lysa TerKeurst:
But I think sometimes in life a friend will make a request, and suddenly we feel like their request is automatically our responsibility or our demand. And so we push ourselves past our capacity, and then we shame ourselves. I should do this, I should do this, I should do this. And sometimes I even do it out of guilt so they don't feel that condemnation rather than a true joy of getting together with a friend.
Jim Cress:
You just went where my mind went: “should” and “shame” both … I'm a simple guy. “Should” and “shame” both start with “sh.” And it's also just like “shhh” to your true voice for yourself. And I think the more “shoulds” that are there, then it's going to lead to shame, which we've said often is self-hatred at my expense. There was also —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Let's not rush past that.
Jim Cress:
OK, yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Let's say it one more time. S.H.A.M.E. could be an acronym for: Self-Hatred At My Expense.
Jim Cress:
I can hate myself, and it will cost me a lot. That's not even the problem [though]. The reality is shame is an attempted antidote to pain. People say, “Why would I shame myself or ‘should’ myself?” It does release chemicals inside me that'll be an attempt to numb out some pain or some reality. And so I use these permission slips. Like, “Huh, you asked me. Thank you, Joel. Let's go to Taco Bell.” I want to give myself permission in authenticity, and in these series coming up, we're going to talk about lying and even self-deception and say …
Lysa TerKeurst:
We have some shocking statistics from that.
Jim Cress:
We do. And I can say, “Thank you, but that doesn't work for me.” Or, “Thank you” (I use this a lot, truly, in all my relationships) “but I don't have that to give.” Now listen to the ticking of the clock. I don't need to say more. That's about me. And I don't have to be a jerk — but we've said children explain and adults inform. “Thank you. And that doesn't work for me.” Just pay attention for a second to why you need to say more. Now you're free to say, “But, hey, next week, let's do that.”
By the way, if you say to a friend, “Let's get lunch,” and phones don't come out immediately for you to schedule it, it's usually a little bit bogus. But I want to keep giving myself permission at age 61, for me, as I get older, to say, “I have this to give, and I don’t have that to give,” and I don't have to explain it.
And then I also can worry, Well, what are they going to think about me? At one level, what you think about me is really not my business. I don't have to be mean about it, but I could say, “I'd love for you … I would to love to have your approval, but if not, then I grant you the ability to be disappointed with and by me.”
Joel Muddamalle:
I really love that. And what's insightful about that is what you both are describing is ordered responsibility through evaluation. We're talking about self-awareness.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Mm-hmm.
Joel Muddamalle:
How in the world are you and I going to be able to make right decisions about requests that come our way or about situations that are happening in our lives? I think when we're unable to do that, that's actually evidence of disordered responsibilities in our mind and our heart and our being. And so, theologically, the idea of the heart … The Hebrew word is lev. And we think it’s disconnected — we think the heart is emotion, and the mind is intellect. And then the body is living between the tension of these two things. Well, the ancient Israelites don't think in that way. They're thinking that the lev, the heart, is the wellspring of emotion and the wellspring of intellect. It is the place where all of these aspects of what our humanity is are ordered and evaluated so that our actions do the right things. And so in terms of self-awareness, we have got to be able to figure out the right order of responsibility so that we can make informed decisions when it comes to [our hearts].
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's so good, Joel. And I think having a response already prepared for situations that are going to come up … I think that's really helpful.
Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And also I need to be self-aware enough that I don't want that answer to betray who I really am and how deeply I really do care in this relationship. My prepared statement that I came up with is: “While my heart says ‘yes, yes, yes,’ the reality of my time makes this a ‘no.’”
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Jim Cress:
That's so beautiful.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Jim Cress:
I’ve borrowed that. I'm not going to steal —
Lysa TerKeurst:
You're welcome to.
Jim Cress:
— from you. But it's so grace filled. I want to honor that of you. I've used that from you, and I went, “That's so good.”
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK, we've talked about [the question of] why I do what I don't want to do in terms of “I keep doing this, keep going to Taco Bell.”
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I keep people-pleasing. And so why don't we turn it a little bit: Why am I so tempted by this?
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And that gets a little bit into your Taco Bell situation, but I wonder if we could go just a little further, not just “I keep doing this, and I should or could not do it,” but what if it's a temptation, and really it needs to stop?
Jim Cress:
I think, if I may speak to that first here, of simple operating systems. We're all used to that. My iOS on my iPhone — I woke up this morning, and it had updated to the new system. It does that quite regularly. If I've been in a PC kind of operating system in my own life, family of origin, etc., and then I come to Mac people … Sometimes people say “you're one of those Mac people” or “you're a PC — you're a dinosaur” or whatever, and there's contempt over it in a very serious way. Even though we joke about it, my [internal] operating system may have years of [old] wiring. And we get to our programs coming up on attachment, [we’ll see how it comes down to the idea] that this just feels comfortable for me.
We started off … We've talked about Aristotle's quote, “We are what we repeatedly do.” That idea is there is a comfort level of “I don't know — I just like doing this. There is a payoff.” And I think there is always a payoff. But there is a transition to say, “I'm moving out of a PC operating system to a Mac.” You’ve got to learn everything [anew]. Or an Android … We're in that all day long with these phones and devices, and there's a learning curve. Part of that learning is to say, “Is there a different way in which I can operate?” And I don't think it changes overnight. And at times when we go, “Is this really comfortable for me? Is this congruent with me?”
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Jim Cress:
There’s a whole systemic change. And a lot of this … We've talked often about a two-degree shift, just a two-degree shift, not this big shift. “I don't want to operate like this anymore.” I think it's good. In my office, we're going to look at the possible payoffs that you get from doing what you [don’t want to do]. Romans 7 straight away.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Jim Cress:
Not doing what you should, doing what you shouldn't. And let's just look: What are you getting out of it? “I get nothing out of it,” [you may say]. No, that's not true.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Jim Cress:
There is a payoff … Usually it's going to be medicating. It just feels good. In a way, [it’s like] you and I are going to play some ball and then go to Taco Bell and watch a show together. We laugh and say, “I would do that in your car in a New York minute.” That's going to feel good, wouldn't it?
Joel Muddamalle:
Yep.
Jim Cress:
We're just hanging. We do enough deep work and theological therapy work — can we just chill for a moment? The payoff is neurochemical, even. It feels like joy. It feels like happiness. When common sense makes good sense, seek no other sense.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Jim Cress:
It's the time not to think so deeply about that and say, “We like it. It feels good. Am I doing any harm?”
Now, if you called and said, “Dude, Britt is ticked …” And that can happen.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I'm just informing you, if I had made a whole homemade meal, and you knew I'd made a whole homemade meal, and then you went through the Taco Bell and came home full from the Taco Bell —
Joel Muddamalle:
No, no, I ate the meal before. I ate the full homemade meal before because I need the energy to play ball.
Jim Cress:
Because you were coming afterwards.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And then go play basketball.
Joel Muddamalle:
And then I play basketball.
Jim Cress:
But you didn't eat anything on ... I thought you stopped every now and then afterward.
Joel Muddamalle:
That's after ...
Jim Cress:
Well, you're stopping at Sonic and getting it.
Joel Muddamalle:
That's theology study days when we get McDonald's every now and then.
Lysa TerKeurst:
This is true.
Joel Muddamalle:
This is true.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Because we often do study days at my house, and you pass a McDonald's on your way home.
Jim Cress:
Oh, now we've switched restaurants.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And you will tell us, “I am not stopping at McDonald's today.”
Joel Muddamalle:
That's a different ...
Lysa TerKeurst:
And Britt and I have timed it before.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Jim Cress:
Oh, wow.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And you 100% have been stopping at McDonald's.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yes, 100%. No. Yes, that's true. I think I'm going to make a turn …
Lysa TerKeurst:
We are just really picking on you today.
Jim Cress:
I'm just witnessing.
Joel Muddamalle:
You got me good. [Laughter.] But I do think that question, Lysa, that you're asking is so profound, and it's incredibly important. Why do we keep doing it?
Jim Cress:
Yeah.
Joel Muddamalle:
I think what's happening is there's something that is untrained and unsurrendered inside of our hearts that is compromising our actions, right? Let's turn to Mark 10. I think this is actually one of the most profound examples in Jesus' experience, in His ministry life. It's Mark 10, and the subheading in my Bible just says “The Rich Young Ruler.”
Jim Cress:
Oh, yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Mm-hmm.
Joel Muddamalle:
You probably know the story well. I'll summarize it. This rich young ruler — everything that we know about him seems to [suggest he was] a young Jewish man who really understood the law. He understood his responsibilities. He had done all the right things. The text actually tells us he goes to Jesus and he says, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" (Mark 10:17, CSB). Notice what Jesus says. Here in verse 19, He goes, "You know the commandments" (CSB).
In one sense He was looking at the man. He goes, “Listen, you’ve actually got this.” What I think Jesus is actually doing is elevating the man. I think He's saying, “Listen, I'm going to put you up in the best possible position.” And notice this: He says, "You know the commandments: Do not murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not defraud; honor your father and mother” (CSB). And then notice what the young man says. He said, "Teacher, I have kept all of these from my youth" (v. 20, CSB). In other words, “Jesus, I'm batting 100.”
Lysa TerKeurst:
Mm-hmm.
Joel Muddamalle:
“I'm crushing it at this.” And I want us to pay attention to the humanity. This is something, Lysa, that you've taught me so well. Look at the humanity of Jesus. Jesus is 100% divine and 100% human. Notice the text and the language. Looking at [the rich young ruler], loving him. He loved him.
Jim Cress:
Yes.
Joel Muddamalle:
The context of what He's going to say is love. And He said to him, "You lack one thing. Go, sell all you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven" (v. 21, CSB). And He gives him the payoff. It's not like Jesus is like, “Do this and don't —”
Jim Cress:
The ROI [return on investment] right there for a rich guy.
Joel Muddamalle:
This is the massive payoff: “You will have treasure in heaven.” And then even better: You don't have to do this alone. Then He says, "Then come, follow me" (v. 21, CSB). This is actually the exact same verbiage and phraseology that Jesus uses of the disciples: Come follow me. Come be with me. Verse 22 is tragic: "But he was dismayed by this demand, and he went away grieving.” Why? “Because he had many possessions" (CSB).
Jim Cress:
Think just for a moment. I don't hear Him putting a demand out. That's the rich young ruler’s words … [But Jesus was not] demanding. I think it's an invitation. It's a bid, “Come follow Me,” but his brain's already flipped it and said, “You're demanding this.” And I understand. Yeah.
Joel Muddamalle:
No, and I think you're exactly right, Jim. And then what I think is so amazing about the way Jesus frames it is Jesus is like ... The young man's like, “I've done all of this for so long,” and if I were to paraphrase Jesus in the tone of what I think Jesus would say, this is how I think maybe a conversation would've gone with the young man. He goes, “Listen, man, you are crushing it. You are 80% of the way there. Look at how difficult all these things are. And you have done that since your youth.” And yet I think He looks at him lovingly in his eyes, and He says, “And yet there's 20%. There's this part of your heart that is unsubmitted, that is ungiven over to Me. I want you to surrender it, and I want you to experience incredible joy. I want you to experience treasure in a way that you could never experience elsewhere, but it's going to cost you something. You’ve got to give up that 20%.”
And that young man looks at the layout and goes [weighing the two options in his hands] … 80/20 — I'm going to keep the 20. Why? Because that 20% was a hook that was hung on the human heart that was going to lead him down into a total pit of despair. And so this is like … Why do I keep doing the things that I do? I think Jesus' invitation for the rich young man is the invitation for us.
And you guys [Lysa and Jim] have been such great friends with me, even with the joking of the Taco Bell and this other stuff, but there could be an unhealthiness to that. And it could be this 20%. And you could be like, “Joel, are you trying to disconnect from your family or are you trying to disconnect from your responsibilities? If that's the case, it's the 20%. That is what will absolutely lead you down a road of despair.” And I think it's really important that we're able to evaluate and say, “Wait a minute … There are some things that I do that are OK. They're good for me. But there are other things that the enemy uses that are actually deceitful, that are actually leading down a path of despair that I have to be careful of.” What is that 20%?
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I think it's also [the question of] where am I attaching my hope to? Where am I attaching my joy to? And I think a mistake that I sometimes make is that there's this pleasure in the world or there's this good thing in the world, and I keep thinking, If I could just have that good thing, then it'll right all of my wrongs. It’ll fill up all of my insecurities. It'll just make me feel so settled, like I've arrived. Right?
Jim Cress:
And it might for a bit.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And it might.
Jim Cress:
For a bit. Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
But the problem with that is I'm trying to write the script of my own life, saying all of my hope is attached to this [thing] that may or may not be good for me. That may or may not ever come to pass. That may or may not ever happen.
Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And if I attach my hope, my joy, the premise of my life, to something that may or may not happen, I am never going to get peaceful. I'm never going to feel peaceful. If, however, I learn I can attach my hope to God, I can still wish for these things.
Jim Cress:
Sure.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I can still work toward these things.
Joel Muddamalle:
That's right.
Lysa TerKeurst:
But the foundation of my hope and where I get my joy … I have to attach it to God. And how I need to do that is by no longer trying to control outcomes. And what I mean by that is: In my mind, I will say, If God is good, He will give me this outcome. And then when God doesn't give me that outcome, I start to question God's goodness. And if we question God's goodness, then we're not going to ever follow 100% after God.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I don't know what was really going on with the rich young ruler, but I would have to think he was like, What will give me the security that I really want?
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Is it Jesus? Because I'm not sure. Is it my possessions? That feels more certain.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I'm going to go after my possessions. All the while he just didn't realize that the very thing he was chasing after was the very thing that was going to be eventually unstable. It never stays the same if it's a thing of this world. Only God stays the same.
Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And so he attached his security, his hope, his joy, to something of this world that will change.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I think that's how I sometimes process this. We've done a really good job today just processing feelings. And I think that's a really important conversation that we need to either have with a friend or a trusted mentor. Or if we don't have someone like that, then we need to process even with ourselves and start asking ourselves questions and being honest about why we do what we don't want to do, and write it out on paper.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
It's going to be crucial that we learn to process these emotions because like you said, Jim, if we don't work through what we're walking through, then it'll turn sideways. It just will.
Jim Cress:
Sitting with a New York Times bestseller and a big author himself now — a future author — did you hear that?
Joel Muddamalle:
Yes.
Jim Cress:
I said that. It's coming — but seriously, journaling [is great.] Like, I do this, and this is where I am faithful to write and to sit down and just take my internal world and put it on a page. The research would show, by the way, don't do that on a keyboard. That's another topic. But take a pen and write, and say, What's going on in my internal world right now? What am I afraid of? What is it I want to do? If we can develop true, ongoing self-awareness to go … Socrates said “Know thyself.” And I'm telling you [some things] surprised me coming out on the page. I'm like, Oh, that's in me. I think in self-correction, it'll save a lot of money in therapy to go, I think this is what I need to do. Then phone up a trusted friend and say, “Hey, this came out of my journaling this morning ...”
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Jim Cress:
“… What do you think?”
Someone says “that sounds wacky” or “that sounds really good.” But so much of that awareness is inside us. We’ve just got to onboard it. We've got to get in touch with it. It's right there.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And instead of beating ourselves up for what we feel like we're not doing right right now, I love the statement you've often told me, Jim: We need to get curious, not furious.
Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
The exercise I would encourage you to do in your journal is to spend some time thinking about this: What do I ultimately want? What do I want right now?
Jim Cress:
That's so good.
Lysa TerKeurst:
What do I ultimately want? And for me, I ultimately want peace, I ultimately want security, and I ultimately want joy.
Joel Muddamalle:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And so if those are the things that I ultimately want, what do I need to address today that would be taking me away from the peace, the security, the joy? And honestly, what that question really is … What are the things about my life that are taking me away from the Lord and that I'm grabbing onto because I feel like it's easier to drive through McDonald's and get a pack of fries to comfort me than it is to go home, open up my Bible, put on some praise songs, and get comfort from God? If my ultimate desire is peace, security, and joy, McDonald's French fries are not going to give me that; only the Lord is going to give me that. It'll give you —
Joel Muddamalle:
It'll give you high cholesterol.
Lysa TerKeurst:
It will give you high cholesterol.
Jim Cress:
And other things.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And Taco Bell too.
Jim Cress:
By the way, can I say something real quick on that? It's right out of Hebrews 12. This is no surprise to anyone at this table, and probably not to our viewers and listeners, but there's a race to run with endurance. Fix your eyes on Jesus. Let's get after it. But then you need to stop. It's ready, set, stop — not ready, set, go — in this race. And that is to look down and identify two words, as Joel knows so well, in Greek: a sin that's entangled me or a weight that I need to let go of. Whatever this is, I hold these papers in my hands … I say, “This is what I think I want to do.” Maybe it's come out of some journaling or conversation. Look down. Just use some three-by-five-inch cards or something, or a salt and pepper shaker literally at the table, and say, What is probably blocking me from self-awareness? Or if I have some awareness that I want to go do that, what's blocking me? What are the hurdles?
It's right in the rich young ruler passage. What might I have to give up or say “no” to? The average person, if they do that simply with some paper, would be able to discover and say, Yeah, that's probably going to block me. It's fear. Fear of whether I can really do this. And what would be the consequences? That scarcity mentality … Take three or four sheets of paper, and write it out. OK, then that's where you can go sit with a good friend and say, “I’ve got to work through these blocks or barriers. I know I'm going to have to face these before I do what I think I want to do.”
Joel Muddamalle:
And I want to just say the obvious. Some people might be wondering, Is this biblical? Should we be caring about our emotions? I just want to maybe go back to Jesus in John 11 with Lazarus, one of His dear friends who died. The shortest verse in the Bible, but one of the most profound, is “Jesus wept” (John 11:35, CSB). Jesus wept. He had emotions. Jesus loves.
And then it's like, Well, should I be processing, and how should I process all of this? Well, another profound idea comes from Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:36-46). He was processing the deepest, most serious emotions that were leading Him to the cross. And I think it's super important that we see the narrative structure of this story. He took the three closest disciples with Him and He said, “Pray for me.” He says, “Pray for me,” right? There's a processing. There's a relationship. And then He goes into the deepest part of the garden and He says, “Well, I'm going to spend, now, time between me and God the Father, to be in communication and to really process through these things.”
In the text it says that Jesus was ... I mean, His emotion … This is scientifically proven, physiologically, that the weight of stress that He endured [could] actually burst the blood capillaries in the head, which literally, literally, made Him sweat blood (Luke 22:44). That's actually what was happening. This was an expression of emotion, and it's really important that we know that the Bible does not reject emotions. It does not ask us to be stoic, robotic individuals, but it also does not tell us or lead us to be driven by our emotions. They do not … Like what you often say, Lysa: Our feelings are indicators, not dictators.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Indicators, not dictators.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. And I think we see that modeled so profoundly in the life of Jesus.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I think no matter what you identify in this processing time, if you're able to identify it yourself … I think, Jim, you've often said there's more help available than you have problems, more help and hope. And so there are therapy support groups, there are addiction support groups, and you've got probably people in your life who have connections with other opportunities for help. But if you're having a hard time identifying some of these things, that's why we have put together this series. And in this series, we are going to … Of course, today we covered self-awareness. Why do I do what I don't want to do?
Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
But in episode two, we're going to cover what is really driving this behavior, addressing our emotions. In the third episode: self-deception. Why am I lying to myself? Episode four: deceiving others. Why am I lying to other people? Episode five: attachment theory, which you brought up, [Jim]. What is my attachment style, and how does that affect my life and my relationships? And then in episode six, we're covering God attachment. And of course, there’s the resource that we have available for you in the show notes today, “What Is It Like To Do Life With Me?” It's an assessment that you can sit down and do with a trusted friend. And really, I think that friend could help point out some things in a loving way to make us more aware of them. And it's a gift. It's a gift they're giving us because when they help us become more aware, we can then become more self-aware.
All of that in one episode. Thank you, Joel, for your Taco Bell admission.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And your —
Jim Cress:
You don't have Taco Bell shame at the end of this, do you? Because I am concerned.
Joel Muddamalle:
No.
Lysa TerKeurst:
No, we're just getting curious, not furious, right?
Jim Cress:
Yeah. We're practicing what we teach here.
Joel Muddamalle:
It's a good exploration of the desire. Why do I do this thing?
Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, no, it's been so helpful.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And we want to acknowledge those struggles, but we don't want to be ruled by those struggles.
Jim Cress:
Exactly. Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Thank you for your brilliant theology. As always, Jim, thank you for your therapy. And thank you for listening today. It's been a joy to have you with us.